Connor Estelle Finally Shares His Side: What Really Happened Behind the Jubilee Debate | DSH #1637

Summary

Digital Social Hour: Connor Estelle Finally Shares His Side

Episode: DSH #1637
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Connor Estelle (“PineSap”)
Date: November 23, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this raw and reflective episode of Digital Social Hour, Sean Kelly sits down with Connor Estelle (known online as “PineSap”), who has recently become a controversial figure following his appearance on a heated Jubilee debate. With much public backlash, selective editing allegations, and an intense reaction from both left- and right-wing audiences, Connor uses this platform to share his unfiltered perspective. The episode unpacks what really happened behind the scenes, the fallout from the debate, broader social commentary, and, at its core, a deeply personal discussion on faith, resilience, and the search for meaning in today’s world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Fallout from the Jubilee Debate

• Selective Editing & Narrative Shaping

  • Connor asserts that the Jubilee episode was edited to “make us out to be these scary monsters” and that the actual energy during filming was more lighthearted than portrayed.

    • “It felt like when they edited it, they were trying to make us out to be these... scary people—Oh, you don’t want to talk to that person, they’re… a fascist, a Nazi.” (Connor, 00:49 & 14:19)

  • He feels that debates devolved into labels and slurs, and the editing reinforced negative stereotypes instead of genuine engagement.
  • Mehdi Hassan, who debated Connor, was “the only one who was super offended”; others in the room were far more relaxed.

• Regrets and Missed Opportunities

  • Connor admits he would have changed his approach to some answers, wishing he’d been more explicit about his views and less caught up in the opponent’s framing.

    • “If I was to really redo it, I think I would have spoken with a little bit more of [the audience] in mind... I wish I had stated [my worldview] in a more explicit way.” (Connor, 02:02–05:16)

• Debate Dynamics & Room Control

  • Both Sean and Connor agree Mehdi Hassan was a formidable debater, with an impressive ability to control the room.

    • “He has worked in media for a long time... His rhetoric, man—he knows how to really deliver it.” (Connor, 06:41)

  • Connor shares he didn’t know who Mehdi Hassan was prior to the debate, expecting “a Gen Z or millennial TikTok guy.” The anonymity and unpredictability of debate opponents in the Jubilee format came as a surprise.
    • “I wasn’t familiar with his content at all... it kind of threw me for a curveball.” (Connor, 07:51)

2. Public Backlash and Personal Consequences

• Job Loss and Doxxing

  • Connor describes losing his job due to an online harassment campaign sparked by his Jubilee appearance, and subsequently being doxxed.

    • “There were people making up horrible rumors about me... and because of the mob, I lost that [new job]. I don’t blame anyone at the company... but they started going after the company I worked for.” (Connor, 17:36–18:41)

  • He recounts the psychological impact, being outed after prior anonymity, and the personal attacks that followed.
  • Despite the severity, he expresses a desire to respond with love rather than hate, drawing on his faith for strength.

    • “My mission is to bring the gospel to everyone, even the people going after me… Love them well.” (Connor, 19:29–21:53)

• Faith as Anchor

  • The conversation grows deeply spiritual. Connor shares that his lowest moments led to clarity about his purpose — to embody love, inspired by Christ’s example.

    • “That moment of love really transformed my life … I want the rest of my life to be about love and I want to communicate that love.” (Connor, 21:53)

3. Media, Censorship, and Internet Culture

• Critique of Current Media Trends

  • Both men discuss the pressure for platforms like Jubilee to avoid controversy and the potential cultural cost of suppressing difficult conversations.
  • They reflect on how the internet’s role (e.g., 4chan, Reddit pre-2016) in reshaping politics and electing Trump could be repeated if new media silences debate.

    • “If they limit who they speak to, they’re actually going to harm themselves.” (Connor, 10:26–11:16)

• Social Fragmentation and Generational Anomie

  • Sean and Connor lament how meaning, family, and community have become devalued, leading to widespread mental health issues and existential crises—especially among Gen Z and Millennials.

    • “We can surround ourselves with media, food, good times… but at the end of the day, we’re still confronted with that question: who am I? And why am I here?” (Connor, 28:24–29:12)

4. Personal Growth, Religion, and the Search for Meaning

• Personal Spiritual Journey

  • Connor candidly recounts drifting from Christianity, exploring Buddhism, grappling with existential emptiness, and finding personal meaning in the story of Christ.

    • “Buddhism… seemed really deep at first, but when I looked at the bottom of it—well, what’s the end? Nirvana… nothingness, emptiness. And I was like, something doesn’t align with that.” (Connor, 24:52–27:50)

    • “I literally remember praying… I want to follow Christ to the very end of my life.” (Connor, 27:50)

• Overarching Need for Belief and Purpose

  • The conversation highlights how younger generations are “lost,” craving guidance and the sense of why that religion provides.

    • “I feel like both our generations are misguided… we can have everything, but there was no why to everything.” (Connor, 28:12–29:12)

5. History, Storytelling, and Identity

• History as Identity

  • Connor shares a lifelong passion for history, not as dry facts, but as rich narratives of passion, war, and innovation — all with implications for modern meaning.

    • “History is so cool… People think it’s boring, but… all those shows we watch like Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings… that stuff actually happened!” (Connor, 31:10–32:52)

• Admiration for Past Achievements

  • Conversation veers into admiration for ancient architecture (Coliseum, pyramids) and the collective achievements enabled by strong communities, highlighting how something essential may have been lost.

6. Community, Family, and Real Relationships

• Community Erosion
  • There’s a sense of nostalgia and regret that strong families and deep friendships are less common now, replaced by transactional relationships, especially in the content creator world.

    • “So many people are fake online. That was one of the most difficult and hard lessons I had to learn.” (Connor, 49:13–50:46)

  • They celebrate the value of expressing love and gratitude to family and friends while you have the chance:

    • “If you let the people in your life know how much you care about them… you will never have that regret of saying they didn’t know, because they did.” (Connor, 42:40)

7. Truth-Seeking and Empathy

• Respect for Open Dialogue

  • Both Sean and Connor advocate for genuine truth-seeking, being open-minded, and understanding the good intentions from across the political spectrum.

    • “No matter what political spectrum you’re on, we all want the same things, right?” (Sean, 45:45)

• The Liberating Power of Truth

  • Connor notes being “canceled” brought clarity and solidarity from those who stayed by his side. In his view, only the truth has the power to set a person free.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On selective editing and media narratives:

  “It felt like when they edited it, they were trying to make us out to be these scary monsters.” (Connor, 00:49–14:19)

• On labels in political debate:

  “When Mehdi called me that, I just was like, you know what? I don’t want to play your game. Call me whatever you like, right? But ultimately, who I really am is I’m just a Catholic. That’s my politics.” (Connor, 04:48)

• On internet dogpiling and loss:

  “I lost my job because you guys went after my job. Right. And you harassed the place that I work. Like, that’s unacceptable.” (Connor, 18:10)

• Faith amid crisis:

  “My mission is to bring the gospel to everyone, even the people going after me… Rather than taking all that negativity… it’s almost as if Christ put something in my heart to say, these people need God too.” (Connor, 19:29–21:53)

• On generational meaninglessness:

  “We can surround ourselves with good food and good times all we want, but at the end of the day, in the dark corner of our room, when we’re trying to go to sleep, we’re still going to be confronted with that question: who am I and why am I here?” (Connor, 28:24–29:12)

• On transactional relationships online:

  “So many people are fake online. That was one of the most difficult and hard lessons I had to learn.” (Connor, 49:13–50:46)

• On the value of love:

  “Before everything, before the political ideologies, before what you say about yourself, you are a beloved child of God.” (Connor, 21:53)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:49] - Discussion opens on Jubilee’s editing and shaping the debate narrative.
• [02:02–06:55] - Feedback and regrets following the episode; approach to controversial moments.
• [07:24–08:07] - Explaining the anonymous debate structure; surprise at facing Mehdi Hassan.
• [09:02–11:17] - Evaluating the backlash, “demonetize Jubilee” campaigns, and effects on media discourse.
• [17:36–21:53] - Personal fallout: job loss, doxxing, and transformative role of faith.
• [24:52–27:50] - Connor’s spiritual journey: from Buddhism to Christianity.
• [28:24–29:12] - Ruminations on generational crisis of meaning.
• [31:03–35:20] - Passion for history, architecture, and lost communal achievements.
• [38:27–40:46] - The enduring power of family; lessons in love and loss.
• [49:13–51:55] - Real vs. transactional friendships, especially in the influencer world.
• [51:55–52:50] - Closing remarks, how to support and find Connor online.

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Final Thoughts

This episode provides a rare, unguarded portrait of a controversial figure navigating the whirlwind of internet culture, cancel campaigns, and media spin. More than just a postmortem on a viral debate, it’s an exploration of personal conviction, compassion over cynicism, and an appeal to seek truth and connection in a fractured world.

Connor’s perspective, at once earnest and combative, is set against Sean’s thoughtful, open-ended questions—making for an episode that doesn’t shy away from complexity, but instead humanizes and contextualizes public spectacle.

For those seeking to understand the full story behind the headlines—or simply looking for a raw discourse on meaning, faith, and friendship in the digital age—this episode is an authentic listen.

Transcript

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[C]

When it came to editing the actual video, did they edit anything out? Did they make people look bad on purpose?

[B]

Oh, definitely. I mean, it was definitely selectively edited. The energy of the room was very light hearted. During my segment, Mehdi was really the only one who was super offended. You know, when we were laughing, I think it just kind of a trolling. And it felt like when they edited it, they were trying to make us out to be these, like, scary monsters, right? These scary people. Oh, you don't want to talk to that person. They're, you know, a fascist, a Nazi. I don't know why it needs to be that way.

[C]

Okay, guys, we got pine SAP on today. I'm sure you've seen him everywhere on the Internet recently. Man, this guy got famous overnight. Thanks for coming on, man. Absolutely.

[B]

Thank you for having me on. Sean Kelly.

[C]

I thought it'd be really important to share your side of the story because we're getting one perspective at the moment. You know, the guy's going on a press tour on all the biggest podcasts. So I appreciate you taking the time to come on.

[B]

Absolutely. And thank you for platforming me too. I mean, your platform is a really good means of just allowing people to speak their mind and speak what's really on their heart. And so I knew you were the perfect guy to just kind of collaborate with. And this opportunity that you gave me, I can't thank you enough.

[C]

Oh, I appreciate that, man. Yeah, I just want to hear where you're at. What did you think of all the reception, all the feedback after the episode aired from Jubilee?

[B]

Yeah, so I really was not expecting it. I knew that there was going to be controversy. There was no doubt. But really, when I was delivering that segment, it was going over a lot better in my head because I was surrounded in a room full of people who agree with me who are friends or at least close allies. And when you're in that environment, you know, you're surrounded by a jury of your peers. And, you know, my peers were clearly people who are aligned with me. But I didn't really kind of gauge the audience I was speaking to at Jubilee, which is kind of much more left leaning or more kind of, for lack of better term, normies. And I don't say that to be insulting, but just normal people who maybe aren't really involved in our spheres don't know the nuances of the ways that certain terms are used or what have you. And so if I was to really redo it, I think I would have spoke with a little bit more of that in mind. You know, everyone who agrees with us knows where I was coming from. But I think those people kind of just hear a phrase or a slur or what have you, just kind of cast it out and they don't really know the context behind it in, like, our sphere, our circles.

[C]

Right. So you felt like you would have taken back some of the things you said.

[B]

I think that I would have presented it better. You know, the content of what I said, if you listen to what I'm saying. I never once denied, like, for instance, met his human dignity or what have you, or when he was trying to, you know, press me about the Holocaust or whatever, I clearly said, like, I condemn the evils of the Nazis. Right.

[C]

And.

[B]

And for him, the reason I was kind of refusing to engage with his slurs there is because that's exactly what they are. They're kind of buzzwords that people use to really shut out. Points that differentiate, I would say, from sort of the norm of the more left wing politics we see in America. You know, most people, when they hear the term fascist, they don't think that it's, you know, Giovanni Gentile or Mussolini or any of these esoteric figures. I mean, even as I say those names, people are.

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[B]

Probably listening, being like, who are those guys? Right? They just think of anyone who's kind of further to the right than John McCain. And so when Mehdi called me that, I just was like, you know what? I don't want to play your game. Call me whatever you like, right? But ultimately, who I really am is I'm just a Catholic. That's my politics. That's my worldview. And I think I wish I had stated that in a more explicit way in that specific interaction, because I think then people would have understood, oh, he just doesn't care about the slurs.

[C]

That's it. Because I think you not responding, people would assume you. You admit to being a fascist. Right, Right. That's sort of what the narrative was.

[B]

That was the narrative, and that was the way that I think it went down. And it wasn't me just trying to be transgressive or edgy. It was more that I was trying to get over the fact of we're having an adult conversation here. You know, I haven't come up here. I haven't called you names. We're trying to go back and forth and engage in this serious political discussion about, like, the nature of the Constitution, the nature of law in America and really virtue and the kind of, like, society we want to live in. So let's stop with the buzzwords. Let's stop with the terms. Right? And instead he, because he works in media, he's used to labeling people that. And rewatching the footage, I saw how he kind of corralled me in certain segments. There was that one section, and this one was really the one I was kicking myself on, where he said, well, how do you know you're not going to be a part of the group that he kills? Well, what I should have responded with is wouldn't support anyone who's killing anyone or. Or dehumanizing anyone or throwing anyone in jail. I, again, I'm. I'm Christian. I don't believe in doing that, those things to people. But instead, I kind of got involved in his corral. And I was more trying to argue from the standpoint of you're mischaracterizing the political system or the political idea that I'm trying to, you Know, kind of talk about here. And I think that that's where I, I misstepped and I said, oh, I wouldn't be a part of that group. As if there was some group that this proverbial leader that I was talking about was, was going to hurt or harm.

[C]

Well, to give him credit on that, he is a phenomenal debater.

[B]

Yeah, he, I mean, he has worked in media for a long time and even though looking back on the debate, I think that there were some people who had really good content. His rhetoric, man, I mean, he's just worked so long in that world, he knows how to really deliver it.

[C]

I felt like he was the victor of that debate. I feel like he controlled the room pretty well.

[B]

He did do a good job with room control. I think there were some people, Kai, especially if you look at Kai Schwemmer's point, and he did a phenomenal job with him because I think he knew Mehdi's tactics and he knew how to kind of rope him in and win over the audience. But I think for some of us, we weren't really prepared for Medi's rhetoric. I mean, we were thinking it was going to be like Harry Sisson or one of the tick tock guys that we were going, oh, they don't tell.

[C]

You who you're going to debate.

[B]

No, no. In fact, it's completely anonymous. You don't know going in. And that's kind of the fun of it is, you know, you have to be kind of on your toes because it could be anyone we were thinking is going to be someone who's like Gen Z or Millennial. And we knew it was going to be like Dean Withers or I think Destiny, because they already appeared. But we knew it was going to be someone kind of of the progressive camp. And we were thinking again, those TikTok kind of guys. But instead he walks out. I didn't know who he was, to be honest.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[B]

I wasn't familiar with his content at all. And so it kind of threw me for a curveball. I'm like, who is Mehdi Hassan? You know what I mean?

[C]

I honestly didn't know who he was before that Jubilee episode.

[B]

Absolutely. I mean, he's been working in media for, I think, like 25 years or something.

[C]

I did some research after and I was very impressed with his track record and resume.

[B]

Absolutely. And he's been working for so long in that world that I think older audiences know who he is based on his credentials. But young guys like us, it's like we're watching the reals. We're on a whole different side of the Internet. And so it's like a new voice for us.

[C]

Yeah, I'm on the Fuentes side of the Internet.

[B]

That's God, dude. I'm saying the same thing, honestly.

[C]

He pops up so much on my feed, he's the biggest pop I've ever seen right now.

[B]

I didn't realize he was the voice of Freak Bob either.

[C]

Wait, what?

[B]

So that clip where there's like spongebob and he says, like, I'm going to hurt you. I'm going to do all this stuff to you. That's actually Nick's voice.

[C]

No way.

[B]

Someone put it through like a spongebob, like AI filter or something and totally made it his, his voice sound like spongebob. And so I, I, I thought it was really funny when they drew the connection, I was like, I didn't even know that clip came from Nick. That's crazy.

[C]

Nuts. I've been trying to get Nick on Jubilee, but it doesn't look like they're going to pull that off. After the backlash of this episode.

[B]

It doesn't look like it's going to happen, honestly, because as we've seen, the backlash has led to that demonetization campaign on change.org and I think it's gaining a lot of steam. I mean, I saw even just browsing Instagram, a lot of slide decks and stuff like that, just talking about sort of their audience disdain for the content. They feel like it's very sensational. They feel like it's not properly representing our side and, or not our side, their side. And they feel like it's platforming people that they really disagree with because there were a couple individuals like Sam Cedar or even that one gay activist who did appear on Jubilee. And I would say they did horrible. I mean, they did a really bad job presenting their side. And so you have those like, pivotal victories for kind of the more right wing sphere. But then even the ones like the Medi Hassan one where he kind of maybe went down a little bit better or looked better in the eyes of the audience and they still still feel like they're platforming views that are unacceptable to even talk with at that point or even debate out.

[C]

Right. Well, that's the whole philosophy of the left. Right, Right.

[B]

Well, because if you're able to speak about your idea, people are going to discover it and people are going to look into it. And if they look into it, they might be converted over to kind of that framework. And so anything they can shut down anything that they can kind of delimit they want to go for.

[C]

Yeah, but that's going to harm their own media companies because now look at Jubilee. If they can't have these conversations anymore, that's going to hurt their business if they.

[B]

It really will. And it'll kind of go back to almost like a pre2016 Internet where like, they didn't platform these people. And that was like the undercurrent that got Trump elected. Because if you remember the way the Internet was before, it was very limited. Right. You know, it was the vestiges of 4chan, even kind of like Reddit when, like, R. Donald still existed. And they wrote us off as just these crazy kids. Right. We. They wrote off like more conservative and Gen Z millennials as just these, like, crazy kids wacky ideas. Oh, they'll grow out of it. And it. That was the base that got Trump elected originally. And so you see this through the generations. It's like Internet culture has a massive impact on elections and the state of our country's politics. And so if they kind of limit who they speak to, they're actually going to harm themselves.

[C]

Yeah. I filmed a Jubilee video once. They never aired it.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. Are you able to talk about it?

[C]

Yeah, I could talk. It was years ago.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So it was top 1% income earners versus homeless. Oh, my goodness. Like 3. Top 1%, verse 3. I forget what that series is called. It might have been middle ground or something.

[B]

I think it was middle ground.

[C]

Middle ground. Yeah. But they never aired it.

[B]

Really.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Just because it was, like, too controversial.

[C]

Or something, I guess. Yeah.

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[C]

The homeless ladies. A knife fell out of her pocket during the episode.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

And then she refused to give it up, so.

[B]

Oh, me.

[C]

It didn't air.

[B]

Yikes. I. I've heard of crazy stuff going on on set like that before, and it gets ugly. It's kind of bad.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Honestly, I'm like, I. I don't know why it needs to be that way. I mean, it was kind of funny. This isn't me talking about the actual shooting because I don't know how much I can say. I even wanted to go up to Medi after and kind of speak to him and be like, you know, hey, man, like, I know you don't agree with my world view or what have you. I know we're on different sides of the aisle or anything like that, but, like, is there anything I can, like, pray for you about not to, like, piety signal or not to be like, oh, look at how holy I am, or something? Like, that's like, no, dude, I'm like a. I'm a normal guy, right? I'm no better than anyone else. But, like, I wanted to show him some level of kindness because I think that people on that side are so used to seeing us as, like, these horrible, irredeemable monsters. Like, if you enter my neighborhood, I'm going to just be, you know, wielding a pitchfork and, you know, chasing your car down the road. But I think when people are able to see, even people in journalism, that you're just a normal person and you have a family and friends and people you care about and love, and you bleed the same as they do, and you're human, ultimately, it hopefully can kind of change hearts and minds, and they can kind of see things maybe a little bit more your way or at least see you as more human.

[C]

I feel that, you know, when it came to editing the actual video, like, did they edit anything out? Did they. I don't even know if you could talk about this, but, like, did they make people look bad on purpose?

[B]

Oh, definitely. I mean, it was definitely selectively edited. And I would say the energy of the room was very lighthearted. During my segment, I think Mehdi was really the only one who was super offended. I mean, everyone. You know, when we were laughing, I think it was more just kind of a trolling. Yeah, right. It was. It was like we were just kind of being jovial. We were like, okay, this Guy's, like, trying to paint us a bad way. We're just gonna have fun with the whole segment, right? Not because we weren't being serious, but we understand there's an element of kind of either irony or hyperbole or just mess. Messing around that kind of actually plays to your side of the debate. And it felt like when they edited it, they were trying to make us out to be these, like, scary monsters, right? These scary people. Oh, you don't want to talk to that person.

[C]

Right.

[B]

They're, you know, a fascist, a Nazi. There are all these different things, and. And really, it's like, that wasn't the vibe of the room at all. Like, we were all friends. We were all talking about, like, hanging out at the beach after and stuff like that. I mean, we literally, like, squatted up and got, like. Like, spiked seltzers and, like, just had, like, a beach bonfire after. It was super fun.

[C]

With Medi?

[B]

Not with Medi. Betty. Medi did not want to talk to any of us, and I literally just wanted her. Yeah, no, he didn't want to interact with us.

[C]

He went straight out.

[B]

He literally went straight out. Well, the one thing is, I. And I think this is fine to talk about, he had a security guard, like, planted right there.

[C]

Whoa.

[B]

And the thing about it was, like, none of us were going to hurt him. None of us wanted to go up to him, hurt him or anything like that. We were just normal kids. We were hanging out, and he was acting like one of us was going to, like, get up from the table or something and, like, assault him or hurt him or something. It's like, that's the last thing any of us would do. I mean, everyone was super jovial and laughing and smiling and. And, like, that was the energy of the room. And he was acting like he was in a den of wolves or lions or something.

[C]

Well, there was that one kid that they made look really bad.

[B]

O. I'm trying to think who that was.

[C]

He was like, get out of this country or something.

[B]

Oh, was. Was it maybe Joseph Dumat who said, I want you out of this country?

[C]

Something like that. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

They. They tried to make him look bad. And then I know there was a controversy with, like, Hermes and stuff like that, and that. That was kind of. He was a little bit more. He. He. He personally was nice to me and stuff like that. I have no, like, personal beef with him or anything like that, but he was kind of a little bit more, like, personally insulting to Medi and stuff like that, and they made it very Clear, like, don't personally insult someone. We're here to debate ideas. We're not here to, like, just attack the person. Right. Which I agree with. It's like, we're here to present a platform and platform our ideas. But yeah, I mean, besides that, it was like, everyone was very normal, even Keel. I mean, especially, like, Kai or Sarah. I mean, they're as sweet as can be. And, like, we were just chilling. I mean, I feel like if Medy had gone into one of the rooms with us and had just talked after, he would have found, like, we could have had a pleasant conversation about a number of other topics like golf or, you know, something fun like we can all kind of converse about. But instead he just wanted to see us as these characters that you can put on the news. Right. You know, angry white person, angry white white guy. And, you know, oh, I hate you, and, And. And all these kinds of things. And it's like, we're not that way. None of us are.

[C]

Yeah. And the backlash that came after was nuts. I mean, you lost your job, right?

[B]

I did. And, you know, I lost my job. There were people making up horrible rumors about me saying, like, I lost my job back in January because I. I put out like, a prayer request on my Twitter saying, like, hey, please pray for me. Like, I lost my job, because I actually did at that time. I was laid off from sort of my first, like, adult big boy job, so to speak. And then I managed to get a different job after that and kind of a different industry, but still pertaining to my education. And because of the mob, I lost that one. You know, I don't blame anyone at the company or what have you, but they started going after the company I worked for.

[C]

And they were calling them.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, they were calling them. They were harassing them. And I think just it's tough when you're in a company. You have to make that call to just, you know, protect your company, protect your identity and stuff like that. So I don't blame any of them or anything like that. It was just. It was a tough call. And I think that was what felt kind of nasty about the mocking of, oh, you lost your job. It's like, well, I lost my job because you guys went after my job. Right. And you harassed the place that I work. Like, that's unacceptable.

[C]

Right. You think if they didn't make those calls and harassments, they would have been cool with it?

[B]

It's hard to say, really. You know, I would like to think that if there wasn't the harassment campaign, everything would have just blown over, but I really can't say. All I can say is that I feel like if there hadn't been the harassment campaign, there probably would have been some news articles or something like that, but then everything would have blown over. But instead there was just this toxicity and kind of this nastiness online that was very unpleasant to see.

[C]

Yeah. And you also got doxxed, right?

[B]

I did, sadly, yes.

[C]

And you were anonymous beforehand?

[B]

I was anonymous. And it's funny, one of the first streams I ever did, I did say my first name by accident in like, a little segment, but I was anonymous for the most part. And then, yeah, they, they doxxed me, went after me and just tried to drag my name through the mud, essentially.

[C]

Scary.

[B]

It's very scary. But here's the thing. I, you know, I said earlier, like, I'm. I'm. I'm Catholic, I'm Christian, and my mission is to bring the gospel to everyone, even the people going after me. You know, I don't hate or resent any of them. And I, I remember that Monday that I got doxed. I was laying in my bed and it felt like my entire world was collapsing. I. I was in this hotel bed and like, you know, Florida, right, about to go on the rift. And I'm laying there and there's all these negative feelings. My world's crashing down and I was overcome with this feeling of, like, love for all these people, you know, all these people that hated me. They're like, oh, you know, kill yourself, I hate you. I'm going to go after you, what have you, rather than taking all that negativity and saying, well, I hate you back, or I feel this way towards you. It's almost as if Christ put something in my heart to say, these people need God too. And these people are made in my image. And yes, they're saying bad things right now. They're doing bad things, but love them well. And I was able to sort of unite in that moment all the suffering that I felt, all the anguish that I felt, all the anger that I felt. I was able to, to almost, Sorry, I'm trying not to get choked up, to unite to the cross. And I almost saw for, For a moment, like, Jesus looking down on, on the crowd, like, crucifying him and saying, like, he went through way worse than anything I'm going through. And yet he could still love those people who curse his name, who betrayed him, or what have you. What excuse do I have? And that moment of love, like, really transformed My life, I haven't been the same since that Monday. I just don't. I still get angry, and I still struggle with all the normal human emotions, of course, but I just made that moment kind of about, like, I want the rest of my life to be about love, and I want to communicate that love. And anything that takes away from that, I don't want, but anything where I can interact with someone and say before everything, before the political ideologies, before what you say about yourself, you are a beloved child of God. You're made in his image, and no matter what you do, he will always love you, and he just wants you to come back.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

And so that's. I want to make that my life's mission now, dude.

[C]

Respect. Because that could have went one of two ways with all the hate you were getting.

[B]

Oh, absolutely.

[C]

You could have went down a dark road.

[B]

Oh, 100. And. And there was that temptation there. I mean, there was that temptation. And at first I was. I was kind of, like, trolling a little bit or what have you. You know, I had that streak in me, but I was like, nah, like, that's. This is a moment to communicate a deeper ideal. And that's the ideal, really. I had went on jubilee for I. I wanted to bring Christ's love to a new audience because all of us are, like, broken. All of us. You know, I always say this. We. We all have this experience as Gen Z, where when our day is done and we've gone to work, we've gone to school, we've talked with our friends, we've done, you know, this podcast or whatever it may be, we turn off the lights and we're in our bed, we're going through our day in our mind, and there's that moment of silence where we ask, why am I here and who am I? And I remember growing up feeling that silence, feeling that. That sort of just anguish of existentialism and asking, who am I? What am I? And the only person who made any sense was Jesus. The only. And, and I, I. I had turned away from him for a long time, right in high school. I had turned away from him early high school, middle school. I wasn't into him. I, I would make, you know, like, blasphemous jokes even sometimes, or say, oh, I'm not one of those Christians. And I started, like, practicing, like, Buddhism and stuff like that in addition to Christianity. But he was the only one who, like, brought that meaning back to my life. And I said, there are so many people in this generation who I Know for a fact maybe we didn't grow up on the same block. Maybe we didn't grow up in the same neighborhood. Maybe we didn't have the same teachers in the same friend group. But I know they felt that feeling too. And if there's some way that I can, not because of who I am, but just talk to them and allow God to penetrate their heart and show them just an inkling of that love, my whole life will be complete.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

And I want that to be my mission, the best I can do, you know?

[C]

Yeah. So it's a big role in your.

[B]

Life, religion, it's massive. It's everything to me. And I know some people, when they hear that, they might get annoyed or they might see me as like a born again type or what have you. But I don't. I don't say any of this like I'm perfect. I still struggle like everybody else. I still am. Been down with temptations. I can still be lazy. I can still have moments in my life where I turn my back on God. But the thing I always want to remind people of is, like, he's that enduring presence. Like, even as much as I might mess up, even as much as I might screw up, like, I know I can always come back to Him. And I know that that person I'm talking to, that person I'm interacting with, he, he or she can too. And I just want them to know that that's the only thing I care about.

[E]

I love that man.

[C]

So you were practicing Buddhism too, you said?

[B]

I was. I got into it weirdly, kind of towards the end of elementary school, just as, like, an idea. And then in middle school, you know, that's when you start to, like, read things for the first time. Like, reading isn't like that boring thing that the, you know, teacher makes you do. Or they're like, hey, read like Magic Treehouse novels or something, right? But like, you start reading, like a little bit of philosophy or worldviews or what have you, because you're, like exposed to that stuff for the first time. And I was really fed up with the materialism of kind of growing up in middle class America. You know, people who went to church, it was like, you know, they're driving like, I don't know, Rolls Royces or like all these different kinds of cars and, you know, yeah, they would, you know, put money in the collection plate. But it's like, I know that guy's cheating on his wife. I know it's all fake. I know it's kind of keeping up with the Joneses. And I was looking for spiritual liberation. I wanted to escape this sort of emptiness that I. I found in kind of Middle America and Buddhism for a while seemed like the path, because it's like asceticism. You know, life is pain, right? Passions and desires are pain. And the more we bind ourselves to those things, the more pain we feel, so we have to let those things go. And that seemed really deep at first, but when I looked at the bottom of it, it's like, well, what's the end? Well, Nirvana, nothingness, emptiness. And I was like, just something doesn't align with that. You know, I. I hear the asceticism. I hear the part about letting things that don't matter go, but I know it's not nothingness. And I know that there are things that we should be passionate about and desires that we do have that are good. And, you know, I. I gotta give them credit. I. I grew up around a lot of evangelicals, and I. I wrote them off for a long time, right? I'd make fun of them. I'd be like, oh, they're crazy. Or Bible thumpers, what have you. But I think I was talking with a friend once, and he's like, well, have you ever, like, actually, like, ever read the Bible? I was like, no, I haven't. Like, that's. That's what the crazy Baptist people do, right? And I sit down and I like, Open Genesis. And, you know, I read that line, like, you know, in the beginning, and. And just everything from there fades out. This image of God breathing life into Adam's lungs, that he had no purpose for creating you and me, right? He had no. He had no reason to create us. He doesn't need us. Like how we need water to live, like, how we need air to breathe. So, like, why did he make us? The sole reason is because he loves us. And he's known your name from all eternity. He has known who you are, Sean Kelly, from all eternity. And the only thing he has ever wanted is your love. The only thing he has ever wanted is you to be the beautiful son of God that he made you to be. And the moment that faded in for me, I realized everything I knew about Christianity was a lie.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

And I said, I. I literally remember praying. I was like, I don't care what it is. I don't know. I don't care where I gotta go. I literally said, if I gotta become a Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Baptist, fundamentalist, doesn't matter. I want to follow Christ to The very end of my life. And that started me on this whole journey, and eventually I ended up in the Catholic Church as a result. Nice.

[C]

Well done, man. Well done. Yeah, A lot of people need some sort of belief these days. I feel like our generation. I'm a millennial. But you're a Gen Z, right? Gen Z. I feel like both of our generations are misguided. A lot of them are lost.

[B]

I think so, too. I mean, because, you know, we mentioned middle America earlier, right? And like, we grew up in a generation where it's like, yeah, you had everything you could ever want, like video TV, SpongeBob, you know, like, you went to the McDonald's play place when you were a kid, like. Like you were never gonna starve. You always had a room to, you know, sleep in at the end of the night. And you had parents generally that. That probably loved you a whole lot. And you had everything on paper, but it was like there was no why to everything. And I think that why is why Gen Z and millennials are suffering so much. It's like, we can, like, surround ourselves with, like, media. We can surround ourselves with good food and good times all we want, but at the end of the day, it's like in the dark corner of our room when we're trying to go to sleep, we're still going to be confronted with that question of, like, who am I and why am I here?

[C]

Yeah, that's so relatable. I had those thoughts in, like, elementary school. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, when you're a kid, you start thinking about that, right? And. And you probably asked your parents. You probably asked, like, they didn't know either. They didn't know either. And your parents are just like. Your parents almost don't know. Not because your parents are bad or anything like that. It's like they care about you. They just care about paying bills or trying to make ends meet. And it's understandable, but, like, nobody knows. And I think because nobody knows, it's like we're all suffering on the inside a little bit. Like when we all get to the bottom of it and some of us act all tough, right? But it's like when we crack back even, like a bottle of whiskey or bourbon or what have you, and our. Our lips are loosened a little bit more, we reveal, like, there's a deep lack of meaning in my life 100%. You know what I mean?

[C]

See it all the time.

[B]

You see it all the time.

[C]

That's why I think there's a lot of mental health issues, too.

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

People don't know their meaning.

[B]

They don't know their meaning. And they think that a pill is going to solve their spiritual problem. Right. They think that yoga. They think that some kind of, like, exercise. I mean, even the gym bros, Right? Like, going to the gym is great. Working out and fitness are wonderful things to do, but you could build up your body for the rest of your life. And you could be more yolked than Arnold and, you know, all these other guys, right, Ronnie. Oh, my goodness. I'm trying to think. Yeah. Ronnie Coleman. Right. You could be more yolked than them. You could be a literal, literal Greek God, so to speak. And yet still that doesn't answer the why. And it's like, even those people who we think of as influencers or healthy people or healthy lifestyle people, they're still doing all those good things in the pursuit of trying to find that thing that even all those healthy habits are never going to achieve.

[C]

Absolutely. One of the things I was impressed with you on the Jubilee debate, I forgot to bring this up earlier, was your knowledge of history.

[B]

Oh, I appreciate that.

[C]

Yeah. Did you do a lot of, like, research on history?

[B]

I have loved history since I was about, I would say, eight years old.

[C]

Wow. Yeah, I could tell on the episode because you were naming stuff that I never heard of before.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, history is so cool. Like, people think it's boring because they almost think of the, you know, Ferris Bueller's Day off character where it's like talking in a monotone voice and they're going to talk about the economy and stuff. Nobody wants to hear that. Do they want to hear about battles? They want to hear about wars. Romance, passion, intrigue. You know, think of all the shows we watch, like Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings or even like, the more recent what's been popular recently. I'm trying to think.

[C]

There'S that one dating one that girls love. Other ancient times.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I forget the name of it.

[B]

I forget the name of it.

[C]

Bridgerton.

[B]

Bridgerton, right. So all those shows, those things happened in history. Right. You know, there were romances. There were people who took up great causes, fought wars, created countries. Right. For this deeper passion that drove them. And that same passion that you feel today, you know, creating a podcast like this or creating a business. And it's like your ancestors had that same drive. Why don't you want to read about them? That's the coolest story. Because it actually happened. Like some writer like J.R. tolkien or the girl who wrote Harry Potter. I always forget J.K. rowling. J.K. rowling. Right. That wasn't created up in their mind. This is stuff that actually occurred, and you get to be a part of it, and you are a part of it. This involves your family. This involves your heritage. This involves everything that pertains to the world you now live in. So it's like, dude, crack open a book or a video or what have you. Like, get exploring for sure.

[C]

Which time period were you most fascinated about reading?

[B]

Oh, man. When I was a kid, I really liked, like, mostly World War I and the, like, Colonial days because it was, like, early American history. But the older I got, I realized, like, how cool the Medieval Ages are.

[C]

Interesting.

[B]

I. Because the Medieval Ages, even though they did not have the level of technology we did yet, because that's how human history works. You just learn more. They created our modern world. I mean, all the beautiful works of art, the cathedrals that we see all were made in that time.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

And they were made by people that, like, don't have software. They don't have, like, all the, like, AI and tools that we now do. But they had a prayer on their heart and a song on their lips, and they went up and they said, I'm going to make something beautiful for God and for my. My family, my ancestors.

[C]

Yeah, it is pretty impressive when you look back at the architecture of some of these older buildings.

[B]

It's super cool. I mean, what would you say is one of the cool buildings you've ever seen or. Or something you've been inspired by?

[C]

Oh, I mean, the Coliseum's got to be up there. That's just legendary.

[B]

It's incredible. I mean, the archways right on the outside of the Coliseum, and even the way it comes down, like, that's what you would have done for entertainment back then.

[C]

And I don't even know if we could build that today.

[B]

I don't think so.

[C]

I feel like we've regressed.

[B]

I think we have, too. I mean, it was a couple years ago. I don't know if they solved it recently, but, like, making Roman concrete, like, all of our concrete roads, they break down after, like, five years.

[C]

Right.

[B]

These have not broken down over, like, a thousand years.

[C]

Holy.

[B]

Right? I mean, these. These buildings have stayed together. They've been able to still support their weight. I mean, modern people are still walking on them and using them just like in ancient times. And, like, they're holding their shape. Like, what's the secret to that?

[C]

Yeah, that's impressive because I grew up in Jersey, and there's potholes every Year do Jersey.

[B]

The roads back there are insane. I mean, any of the eastern states, right? It's like we make concrete instantly broken, right? And they're working on the road all the time, and traffic gets to one lane and you're like, dude, I'm like, 30 minutes late to the job.

[C]

What's going on? No, it's not. And when you look at the pyramids, it's even crazier.

[B]

Isn't it crazy? I mean, to haul those giant stones, you had to have teams of, like, hundreds of people pushing them, guiding them and stuff like that, all in almost this, like, symbiotic way that ants kind of resemble, like, you know, if you've ever seen, like, I don't know, ice cream drop or like a grape drop. And you see the way that ants come together. They all work in this beautiful system. And to think that human beings work the same way to achieve these great marvels, it's like, why can't we do that? Yeah.

[C]

Makes you wonder if there was like a hive mind or something back then.

[B]

That would be kind of interesting to contemplate. I think in some ways, you know, without getting into, you know, like a Reddit conspiracy or something, like some. Some giant brain floating around. I think in some ways you're kind of right, because people saw themselves as. As really family. You know, we talk about things like concepts like unity today or, like, being united or being together, but, like, everybody knew everybody else. And ultimately, I think, like, wanted the best for each other. And so there was kind of that hive mind. There was that, like, I love the term symbiotic relationship where everyone wanted to come together and they said, let's do this. Let's work as one body, right? And that's why they achieved those great works of art. Art or construction. And it. It still lasts today. Like their labor of love, the love that they had for each other and the love that they had for God and the love that they had for the work that they were doing. Their passion is still with us today as a result.

[C]

Yeah, it is nuts, though, because these days, family and community are not as pedestal, I guess, as back then. Right?

[B]

They're not. And. And instead, what do we see now when you're applying for a job? They say, well, your work's going to be your new family, right? This is going to be your new work family. And. And you're there. And it's not that you hate the people that you work with quite. I mean, especially not here. Dude, you're running your whole show. Right? But it's not that you hate the, the people that you work with, but it's like you're taking away the most important aspect of someone's life. And the only time we see each other now as family members is when we get married and when we die and we don't spend time with our old relatives, we sequester them in some, like, old folks home, right? Don't speak to them until, you know. It's like, oh, grandma's dying. It's like, oh, let me try to get in all these years of experience I should have had with her in this span of like two days.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Right. And taking away that central aspect of human life. You talked about mental health earlier. I think the most mentally healthy thing that you can do is having a good relationship with your mom and your dad and your extended family and your siblings too, because they love you. Like, they're always going to be here for you. And sometimes they just need to hear from you that you love them. Because I feel like parents sometimes want to say that to their kids. They want to scream out. They're like, you know, your mom or your dad, like, sean, Kelly, I love you. Right? But they're worried it's going to make them seem not cool or like they're. They're kind of putting on too much pressure on you. But for you to go to your parent, for you to go to your grandma, your grandpa, even your cousins or aunts or uncles and say, no, I really love you. And like, I value the time that we spend together. Nobody forgets that that will last with them for the rest of their lives. And they will. The love they show you will last with you for the rest of your life. I still remember to this day the way that my older relatives that are no longer with. With me, the way that they loved me, the gifts that they gave me, not because it was a monetary possession, not because the gift or the love that they showed me was of great value from a money standpoint or. But it was the heart that they showed that I never forgot. And it made me the man I am today.

[C]

Wow, that's deep, man.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Thanks for being so open about that. Of course. Were you raised in an environment like that? Very loving environment?

[B]

I was. I. My family is everything to me and I want everyone to know that love. Because I remember so many times in my life where I had a question, you know, growing up as a young man, right? I mean, you have questions about, like, girls, right? Like dating and stuff like that. You know, you have questions about Job stuff. You have questions about just life. What direction should I take? What pitfalls or mistakes? And if I hadn't had the loving family that I. I have, I would be nothing. And I see so many kids, and I'm inspired by them that come from broken homes and they've made something of themselves. And I think to myself, I'm in awe of you, because I know if I was in your position, I would have been flattened like a can. I would have just been absolutely destroyed. But the fact that you were so resilient to still achieve something great, like, it is a crime that you don't have the loving family environment that you should have. It just makes you. It forges you, and it's. It. It gives you, again, like, that reason to get out of bed in the morning and say, you know what? Even if life's hard, I'm gonna. I'm gonna make it. I'm gonna completely go off and be something for the people that I love and the people that I care about. Yeah.

[C]

Nuclear family is important. There's a lot of studies these days on it, too. So people can't deny the importance of it anymore.

[B]

Absolutely. And, I mean, you see it in every aspect of life, like human happiness, like achievements. Right. Kind of passion or drive. You know, when people feel like they have that base, they start to dream higher. And I even remember seeing the dynamics of, like. I mean, look at, like, Shaquille o'. Neal, right? Like, he's always smiling and stuff like that. And from what I can tell, he's got a great home life. Like, he's a great dad, and his. His kids love him and his wife loves him, and he's a faithful father. And because of that, he created such a base of happiness that even if he lost all his money tomorrow, I still think there would be a smile on his face.

[C]

Yeah. It's important because a lot of men and women, I guess, to tie their identity to money.

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

And then when you lose it all, because it's inevitable, you know, ebbs and flows. That's what life's about. I've lost my money twice. Who are you going to fall back to?

[B]

Who are you going to fall back to? Money is fleeting. You can't take it with you when you die. I remember there. There was. There's something my mom told me a long time ago where she said, when you die, all those things that you bought, all those houses that you owned, all those cars that you had, they're not going to go in the grave with you.

[C]

You.

[B]

But you are going to be surrounded by the people that you love. And if you did not value them, if you did not spend time with them, if you didn't say every single day, every single opportunity you got, I love you, it's all been a waste. I mean, there was a teacher, and it's kind of weird because he. He was a sort of teacher I didn't get along with a whole lot. He was a very, like, freeform, kind of like hippie, dippy dude. He's like, oh, you can, like, you can just like, blow off class if you want or something. And you blow off class. And he's like, you know, Connor, why weren't you here, bro? And you told me I, like, I could leave class, right? Like, what's the deal? But he did say something that stuck with me, and it never left my ear. The moment he said it, he. He said, you know, I was talking on the phone with my son. He said, hey, son, I love you. I really care about you. And he's like, you need to tell every single person in your life that. Your family and your friends, because you don't know if that's the last time you'll see him. And I hear about heartbreaking stories sometimes where there is a friend or there is a family member that you have, and you're like, oh, you know, they're just like going to the store or something. I'll see them in a short while. And they get in a car crash and they have a heart attack and a unforeseen tragedy happens, and suddenly you don't get to tell them everything that you wanted to tell them. Well, that sits with you. But even as tragic as those things are, there's some peace in knowing. If you let the people in your life just know how much you care about them and how much you value them, you will never have that regret of saying they didn't know, because they did.

[C]

Absolutely. Yeah. When I'm on my deathbed, I don't want any what ifs.

[B]

Amen.

[C]

You know, I want to have all the conversations I need to have, tell all the people that I love that I love them and do all the things I wanted to do, man.

[B]

Absolutely. Well, if you don't mind me asking, Sean Kelly, what is it that you want to do?

[C]

I want to impact the world. Inspire people.

[B]

Inspire people?

[C]

Yeah. Seek the truth. Inspire people to seek the truth. I'd say because I grew up not. I grew up afraid to ask questions. I was that shy kid in class. I never wanted to speak up. And I just wish I had the proper guidance growing up, you know what I mean? So now I have this platform where people could share their truth like you are on this episode. And I get people to watch that and it makes me happy, it makes me fulfilled.

[B]

You know, my opinion might not matter a lot, but I will say I think you're doing a damn good job.

[C]

Thanks, dude.

[B]

I. Dude, I know you're gonna just keep like soaring to the moon, but the way that you're allowing people to speak with you and that you're seeking truth with a sincere heart, you never let that go, dude. There's just a bountiful, beautiful future of glory awaiting.

[C]

Dude, I appreciate that this show has caused me to be a lot more open minded, a lot less judging, which I love because I grew up pretty judging, you know, I grew up pretty close minded.

[B]

So it's tough. It's tough because sometimes you're scared, right? You're like scared to hear someone speak to you or what have you. And it, it's, it's good to have convictions. There's nothing wrong with that. But, you know, sometimes people go through certain things or they experience certain things and getting to like sit down and hear where they're coming from, you, you like know their heart better. You see them as a human person, not. Not just a set of ideas or concepts.

[C]

Well, it goes back to how we started with the left. I grew up left. When someone's challenging your beliefs, it makes them uncomfortable.

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

And then they don't want to talk to you at all. But that's not the way to grow too.

[B]

Absolutely. And if I might say, you know, I know I don't know you as well as I should and I, I hope to get to know you more and become a good friend of yours. But I almost guarantee that when you were left wing, everything that you believed came from a good place in your heart. You wanted to help people.

[C]

Right.

[B]

You didn't want to hurt anyone. You didn't want to do the wrong thing. You wanted to be a world builder and a world changer. And I think that's so important to remember. Like the people that we interact with in our time, it's so easy to like impose negative intentions upon everybody. Oh, there's this vested interest this other person has and there are people who do, but sometimes even people who do have, have vested interests or they even do evil things. They do them because they think they're doing the right thing.

[C]

That's a good point.

[B]

You know what I mean? They, they think that they're fighting for the right cause and that ultimately it doesn't come from a truly sociopathic place. They just want to build a better world. And I think if. If you reach down and you appeal to that heart in someone and you're. And you're able to, like, talk to them from that place, not you're this evil, negative person, but you're this person who, again, bleeds the same like me and just wants a better world. Like, that's when you see them for the first time.

[C]

That's such a good point. Because no matter what political spectrum you're on, we all want the same things, right? Pretty much.

[B]

I. Dude, we all have homes we go back to, we all have families we go back to, we all have friends that, like, we love and adore and we, like, cut up with or whatever. Why would you. Why would you look at another person to deny them about that? You know what I mean? Like, they're in some ways different, but also the same as you and I. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[C]

Yeah. So that being said, who do you really want to have a conversation with, Have a sit down with right now? I'll try to line it up for you.

[B]

Oh, yikes. That's. That's a great question. I, you know, this may sound like an ambiguous answer. I would love to just sit down with anyone who is a true seeker like you, you know, anyone who has a sincere heart. Anyone who. It's like their platform is all about just trying to seek after the truth. And as we know, and I, I say this just unambiguously, you know, the truth is God, the truth is Christ. Like, anyone who wants to sit down and talk about that, and it's just open, even listening. Even if they're like, I don't know if that changed my mind, that's okay. I want to sit down with them. I want to talk to them.

[C]

The truth always wins, right?

[B]

It does, it does. And it liberates too, dude. Like, when you say, like, the truth sets you free. You know, as much as getting canceled sucked, there was something so beautiful about the people in my life that stayed and said, like, I've seen the way that that episode went down. I saw the way everything went down. And you know what? I love you and I appreciate you. There was something so liberating about that because I knew, like, those people love me for who I am. I'm not, I'm not slipping on the mask, right? And from there, it's like that person cares about who you truly are. And. And in A weird way. I think that's why the truth liberates, because it allows you to be honest with other people. It allows you to be honest with yourself, and it allows you to see a whole different side of reality you never thought possible.

[C]

In your lowest moments, you always find out you're real friends.

[B]

You do.

[C]

It's actually one of the good things about experiencing these low moments. Sometimes you need to go through that to see who's really there for you.

[B]

It's really true. And I'm sure, like, in your life, you've had moments where you thought certain friends were probably like your best friends.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

Like they're your go to's and then you hit that low moment and they're gone. And they're gone. Can't be found.

[C]

Can't get a text out and be found.

[B]

I. Sometimes people view you as like a means to an end. Like, hey, you say a funny joke, right? You make me laugh. We'll hang out, right? Or I know when I hang out with you, we're going to go to a bar and have a good time or something. And the moment, you are having a bad moment and suddenly not smiling and laughing as much. You're not the party or you're not the guy who is the life of sort of their world anymore or the life of the party. They're nowhere to be found.

[C]

Yep. Right. And you'll see that as you get more followers, people will use you for views as well.

[B]

It's true.

[C]

And they won't be found once your viewership declines.

[B]

It's true. True. And I want to say this. You know, I said this earlier. I think you, I mean, you've got a big platform here, but I think you're only going to keep growing. I do not care if this one day was a 100 viewers. Like, I still want to be your friend.

[C]

Damn.

[B]

I still want to be your brother. Like, I, I know we literally just met. I. That's, that's. I, I come on strong with people. I'm a very passionate guy. I mean, that's why I go by pine SAP. I'm a very sappy guy.

[C]

Oh, that's how you got it.

[B]

That's kind of how I got it. I mean, growing up in Colorado, I grew up around pine trees, so I was like, I love the trees, man. They're awesome. But that's what matters because you're so right, like, so many people are fake online. That was one of the most difficult. And I feel like you're going to feel the same way when I say this. That was one of the most difficult and hard lessons I had to learn.

[C]

I bet.

[B]

Because my entire life, every single person I interact with, I. I want to be authentic with. I'm not going to be perfect. I'm going to be ugly and messy because I'm a human. Right. But I'm. I want to be authentic. Good side, bad side, everything. And there are so many people who care about appearances. There's so many people who care about just keeping up kind of with the Joneses being popular, that the moment you stop offering that to them, it's like you said, they're gone.

[C]

That's common in the social media world, man. It is, Yeah. A lot of relationships in our space are transactional.

[B]

They are transactions.

[C]

There's not a lot of true friendships.

[B]

No. And it's like, what can you offer me? What can you do for me? How can you get me connected? And the moment you stop offering that, it's like, oh, well, for yesterday's news, yeah, we're gone. No, that's not how people are. People can't be thrown away. Like Andy throwing away Buzz and Woody and Toy Story, right? Yeah. Throwing away a rapper. It's like, people are stories. They are ideas. They are love and soul and light and passion. And when you throw that all away, you're throwing out the most precious gemstone you could possibly ever have in your life.

[C]

I agree. I'll actually even take it a step further. I think a lot of people treat friendships these days as transactional.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I mean, think about, like, when we were growing up, you probably played on, like, Xbox a lot.

[C]

Yes, I was a PC gamer, but.

[B]

Yeah, you were a PC gamer, Right. So you probably got on, like, Discord, Skype, something like that. And you had some of those friends that's like, they want to play games together, but, like, didn't want to do anything else. Yeah, right. Like, you're like, dude, let's hang out at, like, the park or something. Let's go play kickball or, like, go to a bar or something like that, and they're like, nah, I'm good. I. I'm okay. I'm gonna just play games with you. Or friends knew that you could get them that job or that you could get them that, like, you know, cute girl sitting across the way or whatever, and, like, they didn't want to interact with you otherwise. But that's someone who didn't value for who you are. That's someone who didn't see the truth that you are someone who is more than just what you can offer. Your totality. You are a reality. You are someone who again is a beloved child of God. And that's first and foremost everything that you are. And if they can't see that, you know, you wish them well, you don't curse them. They shouldn't be in your life anymore. You know what I mean?

[C]

I love that Pine stop. This has been a really cool episode. It's great to see his side of you. Honestly, I think the Internet painted you in such a, you know, an evil way. Honestly, I think so too. So it was really cool to get to know you one on one. This is why I do my podcast, man.

[B]

Dude, I and I, I watched your podcast and the way that you interview people and just speak back and forth with them as a friend. Like I knew you were the guy I needed to hang out. So I really appreciate that, man.

[C]

Where can people find you and support you and everything?

[B]

Yeah, so people can find me. Should I look in this camera while I say that? Okay, people can find me. Pine sap3 on Instagram. I'm feels guy2003 on Twitter. I'm also going to go back to streaming on YouTube as well. And you just look up Pine SAP and rumble as well. So there. And those are my main social media accounts. So be looking for more content. I'm going to be start. I'm going to start making videos and more short form content. Content as well as keeping up the streaming. So it's going to be exciting.

[C]

Check them out guys. Fun episode. Wish good things to you in the future. Thank you for up see you guys.

[E]

I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe.

[C]

It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.

[B]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price. So that means a half day. Yeah. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[D]

Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's busy taxes and fees extra see mint mobile.com.