Creepy Behind the Scenes of Matan's Podcast Exposed | DSH #2014

Summary

Digital Social Hour — Ep. 2014: Creepy Behind the Scenes of Matan’s Podcast Exposed

Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Hans Niemann
Date: June 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Digital Social Hour digs into Hans Niemann’s experience with viral podcast culture, the fallout from the infamous Matan podcast appearance, and Hans’s perspective on chess’s mainstream explosion and his personal journey. Host Sean Kelly navigates Hans’s candid takes on digital media, controversy, career resilience, and the future of chess, making for a revealing, unfiltered conversation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Chessmates Documentary & Public Perception

• Documentary Reflection (03:00): Hans discussed the recent Netflix release Chessmates, noting its positive reception and how it allowed deeper exploration of his personal story beyond the “surface level understanding” most had.
  • “This was a good way to delve deeper. So it's certainly been pretty positive.” (Hans, 02:59)
• Balance of Perspectives (03:30): Hans appreciated the inclusion of voices "against" him, expecting potential bias due to the involvement of Magnus, Hikaru, and others, but was “glad how it came across.”
  • “It was kind of my own voice against all of them. And I'm glad how it came across.” (Hans, 03:29)
• “Chess Mafia” Dynamics (04:17): Hans refers to top chess influencers as the “Chess mafia,” explaining this as shorthand for monopoly power in chess’s business ecosystem.

2. The Matan Podcast: Creepy Comedy and Industry Critique

• Behind-the-Scenes Was “Genuinely Creepy” (04:30–06:56): Hans offers a raw recounting of his off-camera time on the Matan podcast, describing the environment as dirty and, particularly, the side character “Mike” as seemingly unstable—not as a comedic bit, but out of genuine concern.
  • “I walk in and that guy. Mike. Mike, Mike sleeping on the floor...not to be insensitive, but he seems genuinely sort of mentally neurodivergent to, to a serious degree.” (Hans, 04:30)
  • “I left very, very confused.” (Hans, 05:57)
  • Memorable reaction: “He seemed like someone who could be in a mental hospital.” (Hans, 06:40)
• On the Show’s Style (07:21): Hans was familiar with the show’s “bit” style but expected more positivity due to persistent booking efforts. Matan’s confusing blend of joking and serious debate left Hans unsure how to engage.
  • “Are you trying to argue with me on a factual, serious basis or are you trying to troll me?” (Hans, 07:37)
• Clip-Farming Critique (13:45): Hans criticizes the show for focusing entirely on creating viral clips rather than substance.
  • “There's not much substance...You're just clip farming literally for 45 minutes straight.” (Hans, 13:45)
• On Social Media Culture (14:18): He addresses the “negative, knee-jerk” side of short-form viral culture and suggests Matan’s following comes from “very young...kids who just enjoy watching trolling.”

3. Navigating Internet Haters and Real-World Support

• Difference Between Online and Offline Reactions (16:09): Hans says in-person encounters are overwhelmingly positive despite his controversial image online.
  • “I've literally never ever had a real negative interaction.” (Hans, 16:09)
• Reddit as a Barometer (17:16): Hans dismisses Reddit’s negativity as evidence of being “on the right track,” labeling prolific negative commenters as “just losers.”
  • “If Reddit's against me, I'm doing something right...If you write a paragraph, negative comment on Reddit, you're just a loser. Like you need to go outside and make some friends.” (Hans, 17:16)
• Devotion from Fans (18:24): Mentions being “mobbed by kids” for photos at tournaments, reflecting sustained popularity.

4. Freestyle Chess, Competing & Career Progression

• Freestyle Chess Format (19:49): Hans praises freestyle chess as “more intellectually challenging,” likening it to rotating maps in Call of Duty.
• Video Games Background (20:27): “I used to play a lot of Fortnite, NBA 2K...those were my favorites by far.” (Hans, 20:31)
• Current Focus & Aspirations (21:09): Hans is playing intensive classical events and aiming for a top-5 spot soon.
  • “I'm number 12 in the world now, so I'd like to be in the top five.” (Hans, 21:14; 22:10)

5. Path to World Championship, Generational Change, and Longevity

• World Champion Ambition (22:25, 24:54): Hans is “quite confident” he’ll be a world champion (blitz, rapid, classical) in the next three years due to generational shifts at the top.
  • “I'm quite confident that I'll be world champion in one of those three formats within three years.” (Hans, 24:54)
• On Magnus and the Generational Shift (25:36): Notes Magnus Carlsen and Hikaru Nakamura’s partial retirements as “the young players have certainly taken over.”
  • "It's unclear how long the older generation will hold on...the new generation has, you know, taken over." (Hans, 25:36)
• On Ratings & Goals (26:44, 27:10): Admits chasing the highest Elo is unrealistic due to rating deflation, focusing instead on dominating over a long time.
  • “The goal would just be to dominate for like 20 years.” (Hans, 27:02)

6. Resilience, Setbacks, and Mental Health

• Plateaus and Breakthroughs (34:09–36:17): Hans discusses hitting plateaus in chess, overcoming them through deep introspection and targeted training, including intensive calculation puzzles.
• Sinquefield Cup Fallout (36:51–38:18): Recounts two years of lost opportunities following the cheating accusations, but never considered quitting chess.
  • “No, at no point...did I think about quitting. Not even like the thought didn’t even enter like a 1000 mile radius of my mind.” (Hans, 37:40)
• Historical Perspective (38:18): Compares his situation to Bobby Fischer’s battle with the Soviet system, drawing inspiration from those who persevered through worse.
  • “I just look at people who had it worse, and I tell myself I should be grateful...sometimes in life, you have no good moves, but you still have to make the best move. You can never give up or feel sorry for yourself.” (Hans, 39:36–40:32)
• On the “It Helped You” Argument (41:16–44:21): Hans strongly rejects the notion that controversy helped his career, calling it “abhorrent” and “unempathetic."
  • “That honestly should have been, like, the thing that destroyed my life…I had the unique resilience.” (Hans, 42:16)

7. Isolation, No Early Support, and Self-Reliance

• Lack of Support (44:33–45:46): Claims “not one person” meaningfully supported him early in the scandal; only after months did he see public support from a former coach, Jacob Agard.
• Consequences of Fame and Infamy (44:21): Hans distinguishes between the two, expressing a wish to have his achievements “but not be a public figure.”

8. Endgame AI: Business Venture & Chess Resistance

• Endgame AI (47:29): Hans introduces his chess tech startup, focusing on AI-powered coaching, accessible improvement tools, and fair professional opportunities.
  • “I call it the sort of the chess resistance…the chess mafia has done a lot of terrible things...Our principles are, we care about the game of chess first.” (Hans, 48:20)
• Critique of Chess.com (49:57-50:19): He accuses them of anti-competitive practices and prioritizing profit over chess community growth.
  • “For them, chess is just a vehicle to make money.”
• Market Opportunity (50:23): Confirms significant venture capital support for Endgame AI, aiming to disrupt the current chess platform monopoly.

9. Upcoming Competition Schedule

• Tour Schedule (50:45–51:21): Hans shares plans for upcoming tournaments and high-profile one-on-one matches, including facing Ian Nepomniachtchi and Jorden van Foreest.
  • “I'll play a match against [Ian Nepomniachtchi] and then against [Jorden Van Foreest]...” (51:15)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Matan Podcast:

  • “He seemed like someone who could be in a mental hospital.” (Hans, 06:40)
  • “Every single segment is just designed for clips. Like...you're just clip farming literally for 45 minutes straight.” (Hans, 13:45)

• On Online Criticism:

  • “If Reddit's against me, I'm doing something right...you need to go outside and make some friends.” (Hans, 17:16)

• On Chess Ambition:

  • “I'm quite confident that I'll be world champion in one of those three formats within three years.” (Hans, 24:54)
  • “The goal would just be to dominate for like 20 years.” (Hans, 27:02)

• On Setbacks and Resilience:

  • “No...not even like the thought didn't even enter like a 1000 mile radius of my mind.” (on quitting chess, 37:40)
  • “Sometimes in life you have no good moves, but you still have to make the best move.” (Hans, 40:32)

• On Fame:

  • “If I could...achieve and just like, not be a public figure...I would, I would snap my finger so quickly.” (Hans, 44:21)

• On New Venture:

  • “I want to make chess like the UFC. I want to bring the personalities. I want to have chess in a boxing gym...maybe in Vegas.” (Hans, 48:02)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Reception of Chessmates Documentary: 02:59–04:17
• Chess Mafia & the Matan Podcast Experience (“Creepy”): 04:17–07:56
• Clip Culture & Short-Form Critique: 13:45–14:18
• Reality of Hate vs Real-World Support: 16:09–18:24
• Freestyle Chess & Career Focus: 19:49–22:10
• Aiming for Chess World Champion: 22:25–27:10
• Resilience & Mental Health (Post-Controversy): 36:51–40:32
• Fame, Support, & Isolation: 41:16–45:46
• Endgame AI and Critique of Chess.com: 47:29–50:23
• Upcoming Matches Announcement: 50:45–51:21

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Summary Tone

The conversation is raw, unscripted, and unapologetically honest. Hans Niemann is animated, critical, and often combative—especially when discussing viral culture, toxic online spaces, and the chess world’s power structures. Sean Kelly keeps it grounded with direct questions and relatable admissions, making the episode accessible whether you’re a chess insider or intrigued outsider.

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This episode stands out for exposing the oddities of internet virality, the resilience required for modern fame, and the radical ways new chess personalities are pushing the game forward.

Transcript

[Interviewer]

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[Hans Niemann]

dirty and just weird. Like I feel like there's like beer on the floor. I don't know. I would like to see him get like a hospital checkup or just someone make sure he's okay and like not mentally impaired. I'm quite confident that I'll be world champ in one of those three formats within three years.

[Interviewer]

Okay, guys, very special guest today. We got Hans on the podcast. New Netflix documentary. Just dropped Chessmates. I saw it last night. Thanks for coming on, Hans.

[Hans Niemann]

Thank you for having me.

[Interviewer]

How's the reception been from the film? Do you like what you saw, how you were portrayed and how people are reacting to it?

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, it's certainly been pretty positive. I think a lot of people didn't know much about it. Had a very surface level understanding and this was a good way to delve deeper. So it's certainly been pretty positive. And yeah, I think it's a good step in the right direction.

[Interviewer]

I thought it was very interesting, very entertaining. It was interesting that they had both sides on it. Usually with documentaries they're a little one sided but they got to interview both of you. So. So that was pretty unique, right?

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah. Well, you had obviously most, mostly everyone involved. I guess you had a lot more people involved who were, I guess, kind of against me. I mean it was. You would have thought that it, if it could have been biased anyway, it would be biased against me because you had Magnus Hikaru and Shestockom who, I mean they're all kind of going to say the same thing. Are going to have very similar perspective because they were sort of. They're all business partners and friends and, and kind of on the same side of things. And I also sued them all. So I, I kind of viewed all of their. I mean I had, I knew what to expect from them, at least from supporting. It was kind of my own voice against all of them. And I'm glad how it came across.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, the Chess mafia, you call them, right?

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah. Well, I mean it's, it's. Yeah, a mafia is a simple way of referring to a monopoly.

[Interviewer]

I did want to ask you about the Matan podcast. I saw the whole thing. What did you think about that interview?

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, it was certainly unique and interesting experience. His side characters Honestly creeped me out. I understand comedy and it could be a bit, but it felt just really, really weird. It didn't feel funny. Like, I think if you see how the side character are characters off camera, it's genuinely just creepy. Like, I walk in and that guy. Mike. Mike, Mike sleeping on the floor of the studio. And it wasn't like a joke. He was actually sleeping there. And you know, not to be insensitive, but he seems genuinely sort of mentally neurodivergent to, to a serious degree. So I personally just kind of felt concerned for the guy and for his well being because he was sleeping on the floor and he didn't really seem okay. So I left kind of concerned for him and a bit confused by there, let's say comedic perspective. It's not really the type of comedy that I enjoy. I thought some of it was in bad taste, but it's a large platform and I mean, I'm. I generally think it's good to bring trust to wider audiences, but I was left, I left very, very confused.

[Interviewer]

I did not know that off camera they were like that.

[Hans Niemann]

While I always thought, no, no, the bits don't. I mean, you like the guy. Viral flooring, he doesn't even speak. Like I walk in, he didn't even say hi to me. He was just like silent. I mean, it's like funny on camera, but like it was just eerie. Like it's. Some of it was not a bit like this. I don't know. I mean, I, I just, I just hope that Mike, Mike is mentally okay in a normal situation because he really did not see. Seem like he was there. Like, he seemed like someone who could be in a mental hospital. Yeah, someone who look. Someone who looks like they're in a mental hospital should probably get mental health.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I mean, he's never said a word in all their episodes, so who knows what's going on there.

[Hans Niemann]

To me, it's just very, very weird. I just think that the concept of the podcast is to offend and make you as uncomfortable as possible and to creep you out. So, I mean, I guess some things get views, I mean, but. But it's not something that, like, I would recommend someone to go on. But yeah, I was kind of just curious.

[Interviewer]

Did you know the, the style of the show before you went on?

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, I knew the style of the show. He'd actually reached out to me almost two years ago. I just had never. I never go to la. There's just really not many tournaments there. I'm always traveling. If I come To America. It's only New York. I mean, LA is just so far.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Hans Niemann]

For me to like, you know, if I'm competing in Europe, to fly back to New York is one thing, but to fly back to LA is, I mean, it's. To justify that, unless there's like some really important reason is really, really difficult. So I was aware, I. I assumed that since he'd been in, trying to get in touch with me or try to do a podcast for so long that he was like more positive. I thought, maybe he's a young guy, he likes chess, maybe he'll be like a fan or more friendly. But at some point I was. The thing with Baton that I don't understand is that it's, it's all a bit. But then he'll try to like make serious arguments, but then it's a bit confusing. Like are you, are you trying to argue with me on a factual, serious basis or are you trying to troll me? And like, all the things he was saying, I would reply to seriously. And then he would try to be serious and then if, and then he would make, you know, it would be something said in jest. But I was a bit confused. Like at some moments he's saying this or that and trying to like, let's say, catch me in something.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Hans Niemann]

But then it's like back to, you know, let's say just pure stupidity. So I, I don't really understand that, the contrast between those two things.

[Interviewer]

I thought you handled it pretty well. I think a younger Hans would have gotten angry and would have gotten into some yelling there. But you, I thought you.

[Hans Niemann]

I don't know, I mean, I'm not really like, there's no. What am I going to achieve by like yelling? I mean, it's, it's not really. I try to just stay focused and not distracted by the guy to my right who. I mean, I could see how the pure chaos of it could be funny, but as a guest, it's just kind of weird. Like if off camera they were super nice and like, oh, hahaha, like maybe I could be normal, but off camera when they're like, when the bits are equally weird, you kind of are just like develop, you know, you're just, just kind of concerned for them 100%.

[Interviewer]

I can relate to that. I've done 2,000 pods and Maton Evan is my toughest interview of all time. Because he, he acts like that off camera too. He like fully embraces that, that role, you know?

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, he's just. Did you. So you interviewed him or you went

[Interviewer]

in his podcast or I interviewed him. I don't think I'd want to go on his show. I think he would just try to clip me up and make me look bad, honestly.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah. The good thing, I guess I've actually posted some of the clips myself, so I guess it's. Everyone can clip the interview as they like and post it on their individual channels to their own pleasing. I mean, that's the, that's the downside of like sort of social media brain rock culture is that one clip can make you look really, really bad. And then people made. People's minds are made up.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, you. You kind of have to control the narrative, right? You kind of have to take it in your own hands these days.

[Hans Niemann]

Well, yeah, you can. I guess some people have like publicists who will call every interview and you know, know, make sure it's rehearsed. But I, I'm not really into. I just did like a podcast today that was, I mean, far more intellectual and normal than that. But yeah, I don't know. Matan is. Is interesting to me. The studio was really, really dirty and just weird. Like, I feel like there was like beer on the floor. I don't know. I think Mike might just. I would like to see him get like a hospital checkup or just someone make sure he's okay and like not mentally impaired because sleeping in the floor of like some dirty office.

[Interviewer]

I feel like a lot of people

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just accepted getting ripped off by their bank. Monthly fees, overdraft fees, ATM fees. Like why are you paying money just

[Interviewer]

to use your own money?

[Chime Advertiser]

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[Interviewer]

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[Chime Advertiser]

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[Hans Niemann]

it's just, just, just weird.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that doesn't sound pleasant. Mike. Mike, if you're watching this and you need help, message us. I guess.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think I. To me it's just like the entire show is just clips. Every single segment is just designed for clips. Like you're basically. There's not much substance. Like it's kind of just a what do I say to get the best clip? And then you're just clip farming literally for 45 minutes straight. He's clip farming.

[Interviewer]

Right? What do you think about that overall? Because the younger generation seems to really be attached to clips to live streaming to these viral controversial moments. Do you think we're kind of heading in the wrong direction there with this?

[Hans Niemann]

Oh yeah. I mean if. Usually I don't really take short form comments Too seriously. Like sometimes comments can be a good like signal or reflection of quality or something, but a short form or something without context. I don't take it too seriously because you know, the Internet can be a very negative place. So if something can easily evoke a negative reaction, I mean that's, it's possible that that's just people's just knee jerk reaction. But I would say that obviously the clips that are rehearsed, I mean maybe he's, you can do a really good job and no one can tell. But most clips I feel like naturally happen. I mean if you plan it or you try too hard to clip farm. But I mean his viewership is quite significant so he must, I mean, I think he seems to have a, a very young fan base of like kids who just enjoy watching trolling. I don't think he has a very mature, mature fan base to be honest.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. What's your fan base? You know, the age range of your demographic. You've been streaming for a while, right?

[Hans Niemann]

I guess on Twitch it's probably different. I don't know, I feel like most, it's hard to say. I think there are a lot of people who are like know of me, know a bit about me. That's probably a very, very large number. And then people who follow me or like interact with my social media frequently is, is a lot less. But I, I, I would say that probably younger, maybe like 18 to 24 is probably my, my largest demographic.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I know you, you got a lot of criticism for how everything happened, but I feel like in person's different. Right. Did you ever get people in person kind of?

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, it's actually funny. I mean in New York I get recognized by like once a day at least if I'm walking around or in a restaurant and I never have a negative reaction. I honestly there's times where I'm out in New York and I get recognized three times a night and it's always incredibly positive. I've never, I mean I don't know whether it's Chess Mafia paid bots, but, or just the mainstream news, but I've literally never ever had a negative, a real negative interaction. There's times people have spoken to me when I maybe I wanted some privacy and it was, I found that annoying. But in the real world I think people are pretty normal and, and a lot of the, the negativity online is just the sort of the, the law, you know, the loud minority.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Hans Niemann]

Most people are just a silent majority.

[Interviewer]

That's always the interesting thing to me. Because I've interviewed some of the most controversial people in the world. You know, guys like Andrew Tate and stuff, and they say the same thing you just said. No one's ever come up to them in person. Talk smack. I think over the Internet, it's just so easy to hide behind a page and talk, you know, And a lot

[Hans Niemann]

of people, I personally have never, ever watched a YouTube video and written a negative comment or even written a comment at all. I don't know. I think most people, the large majority, just kind of like, they don't comment. And I think a lot of people who do, like, you know, always reply and comment, that's kind of something, or they're probably just like Redditors, you know, And I. I personally look at Reddit as, like, a barometer. If Reddit's against me, I'm doing something right. Because I find all of Reddit is just, like, completely stupid. I mean, everyone in Reddit is just like, you can't take any Reddit thread seriously. Because anyone who, Anyone who, like, even spends their time, like, writing Reddit comments is just, like, automatically. I just. You just. You just can't take them seriously. Like, passionate ones. Like, if you write a paragraph, negative comment on Reddit, you're just a loser. Like, you need to go outside and make some friends.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Hans Niemann]

So, you know, it's. You can check. But out of curiosity, but it's not really, I think, something. A metric that you should use to judge yourself or to judge, like, things that you've done. I mean, it's not.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Hans Niemann]

And in person, honestly, only incredible. Like, when I go to tournaments, I get mobbed by kids asking for autographs and photos. I mean, I played a tournament grand gate, where I probably took a thousand photos. Wow. And after every single game, there was a, you know, crowd of like 50 to 100 kids waiting outside to get a photo and autograph. So I don't really feel the. The hate or bad boy image too much.

[Interviewer]

That's insane. I witnessed that too, at freestyle chess here in Vegas. People are coming.

[Hans Niemann]

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, that was a great event. I mean, that was a great, great example. I mean, we were a bit overshadowed by the. By the NBA guys, but I suppose we, you know.

[Interviewer]

Summer league.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, exactly.

[Interviewer]

You still playing in those tournaments? Freestyle chess?

[Hans Niemann]

Well, freestyle chess, you know, they had that entire tour, and that event you came to was really quite special. Unfortunately, they don't have the full tour again this year. They just have the world Championship. They had Grenke, which is a open tournament, but not as sort of not with all the glitz and glamour that they had at the win. So they have the World Championship, the freestyle World Championship, and then they have sort of qualification paths, but they don't have the same, you know, sort of intercontinental tour. You know, they had, they had Cape Town, Paris, Vegas, Germany. So they've scaled down a bit.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, they seem to be doing some really interesting stuff. I feel like that was a very unique style of chess. Right. You had to learn a complete new game.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, well, obviously, you know, maybe not learn a whole new game, but you have to forget everything you learned in the past because it's, it's. Everything is the same, but you don't, you're not relying on all the things that you memorized before. So it's. As a player, I personally love freestyle. Like, it's, it's a lot more interesting. It's way more sort of intellectually challenging and stimulating. Every game is fresh, everything is new and unique. So it's like, you know, a good comparison is if, you know, if you play Call of Duty, you play the one map, one map for your entire life instead of rotating maps. It makes things so much more interesting. So I think that's a very fair comparison.

[Interviewer]

You still play any video games?

[Hans Niemann]

You know, I used to play a lot of Fortnite.

[Interviewer]

Oh, yeah.

[Hans Niemann]

I was really big into NBA 2K. This was probably when I was like 13, 14, and I took a bit of a. Not a break from chess, but I wasn't competing as much. And I would say the game I was the best at was probably Fortnite or NBA 2K, but those were my favorites by far.

[Interviewer]

You gave it all up for chess, right?

[Hans Niemann]

Well, I was never really competitive to the level of chess, but that was probably 13, 14, 15. And then from 1516 I took chess more seriously, became an international master, and then once I finished high school, I became a Grandmaster and then sort of of broke through quite quickly.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. What's the format you're focused on right now? Is there a specific mode that you're going all in on? Blitz.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, the classical formats, obviously these are the most prestigious. And winning the classical, which is championship title like Ukesh did, is obviously like a life changing thing. But yeah, that's the primary focus. I'm playing a lot of. I just played a classical match in Paris, I'm playing two more in Belgrade. I'm playing a classical event in Uzbekistan and then I won in India. So there are certainly more opportunities. Like there's a Chess Olympiad coming up. And finally on The US Olympic team. So this is an incredibly busy schedule, but you're trying to improve sort of your game all throughout. But I still want to break through into the classical, you know, top 10. I'm number 12 in the world now, so I'd like to be in the top five.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, you're right there. This could be the year, right?

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, I think I'll definitely make it in the top 10 this year. But we'll see if I can make it into, you know, top five, top three and start really, you know, winning, winning big tournaments.

[Interviewer]

How big is that gap right now with top five and 12 right now?

[Hans Niemann]

I mean, top 10 is like very small. It's like 10 rating points. Top five is like 25 points. So it's like one, you know, one good tournament to top 10 to two, two or three good tournaments and I'm top five.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And you said on the dock multiple times your goal is to be the number one chess player in the world. And you said within 10 years.

[Hans Niemann]

Right, I know. I mean 10 is a bit much. I, I would say that, you know, they're.

[Interviewer]

I feel like a lot of people

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[Hans Niemann]

There's the world, there's blitz and there's rapid and there's classical. So I'm quite confident that I'll be world champion in one of those three formats within three years. I mean, wow. I'm quite, that I feel quite certain to win one of them because I mean every year you have rapid and blitz. So you have two chances every year. And I've been close the last two years so that I'm quite confident in. Classical is, you know, the cycles every two years you have to wait a while. I mean classical is the whole thing, the rapid blitz. I feel quite confident that things will come together in one of these years.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And the top guys right now, they're, they're getting older. I, I saw in the documentary you said they're aging out a little bit.

[Hans Niemann]

Well, Magnus is retired from classical chess. I would say so not fully retired, but he's not a serious player anymore or he doesn't play and the top events. Hikaru is basically also retired from classical chess. He did play the candidates, but he played very poorly and didn't show anything. Truly impressive. And you know, and then Fabi is getting older, but he's incredibly consistent. And then you have some of the old guys holding on, like Anish, Giri, Wesley. So. But you know, the, the young players have certainly taken over. You know, two 19 year olds are playing for the world championship title. So it's safe to say that the new generation has, you know, taken over. Yeah, but it's unclear how many of these sort of how long the older generation will hold on because it's a lot easier to hold on and rapid and blitz, but in classical and get one, one game, last six hours. You know, it's, it's a, it's a different level of focus, different level of discipline and preparation that is a lot harder to maintain with age.

[Interviewer]

Do you, do you also want to have the highest ELO of all time? Is that a goal of yours?

[Hans Niemann]

The. There's been a lot of deflation. So having the highest classical rating of all time would be really, really hard, I think with the current status of chess. But I would just, you know, the goal would just be to dominate for like 20 years.

[Interviewer]

20 years. Wow.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah. I mean if you dominate for 20 years, you know, you're the greatest of all time. So, so we'll see how that, how that goes.

[Interviewer]

You don't want to be just the champ, you want to be the goat.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, I mean that's, that's the only real, real goal, to be honest. I mean to become world champion once in my 20 year career is like, in my opinion, like 90 likelihood. But whether I can fully, fully dominate is this will require. Will, will require, I mean, another level.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, they say a lot of champions say it's harder to defend than to get that first one.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, well, I don't know. I think, you know, it's just a, it's just a mathematical thing. If I'm, if I'm playing, if I'm playing for 20 years and if I, if I'm playing 20 more World Rapid and Blitz Championship and there are two different times, that's 40 chances. You know, I was fourth last, last year, tied for, tying for second. So I mean those 40 chances, if I'm a top five player in the world, I mean I'm, I'm statistically, from a purely like logic perspective, I'm statistically bound to win one of them if things go my way. So, you know, that's not accounting for my improvement as well.

[Interviewer]

Where does this competitiveness come from? I think I saw in the doc, at least you said you got bullied a lot Growing up, does it come from some childhood stuff for you?

[Hans Niemann]

No. You know, that honestly they, I think they kind of took that out of context, to be honest. I think it was more of a thing that looked nice for the angle, but it was not really bullied as more so, you know, I was quite focused on chess, so I was not the most social person, but I was actually incredibly competitive in sports growing up. I mean, I was one of the top cyclists in the country. I, you know, I competed in cycling in the Netherlands. I was on, you know, I played water polo. You know, I was on in high school. You know, my, my swim team was like the state champion for the 13th year in a row. So.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Hans Niemann]

You know, so I was always very athletic and very competitive in all things. You know, I play a lot of tennis now, so I would say that the, you know, competing is in my nature, but obviously chess is the best way for me to manifest that, that competitive drive.

[Interviewer]

That's fascinating because when you think of the typical grandmaster, you don't think they're pretty athletic physically, but it sounds like you got that unlocked too.

[Hans Niemann]

It's, I think it's. To me, I just love competing and you know, my family, they're all sort of athletes, some competing at a very high level. So for me, I wanted to compete at the highest level in something. Chess is what I was talented at and what I genuinely thought I could reach the highest level at. So also, I mean, I much prefer an individual sport. You have a lot more control. I mean, if I dedicated my life to water polo, you know, it's a team sport, there's not much money in it. Like, you can't really be a star in water polo.

[Interviewer]

Right. I can't name a single water polo player.

[Hans Niemann]

No, exactly. You know, there's probably people who dedicated their entire lives to water polo, but, you know, their probably didn't make much money. Maybe they have a few Olympic medals, but all those. I don't like sports where there's all these different factors, like what if you're the best player but you're, you play for the Olympic team and your country is terrible, so you don't achieve anything, despite how good you are. I mean, I wouldn't much prefer like if I didn't play chess. I wish I would have hoped I would have been a tennis player or a swimmer or a cyclist. But I think I had all I had the talent and the, the necessary ingredients to be, be a top chess player. And thankfully I identified that from a very early age and, and was Grateful. I mean, lucky enough to have the opportunities to pursue that and have the resources, you know, to, to, to play against the best and, and improve.

[Interviewer]

I felt like you caught some good timing too, because chess has gotten more mainstream, more viral from when you first started playing right now.

[Hans Niemann]

Well, I was sort of a part of this 2020 post Queen's Gambit twitch boom, when all these people were streaming. I mean, I, I streamed so much during the pandemic, early pandemic. And then I, you know, end of 2021, I just started competing non stop and quit. But you know, I would say that chess growing. I mean, the prize money's been increasing. You know, the freestyle events are crazy prize money. So.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Hans Niemann]

Also there's the esports World cup in Saudi, which is like, you know, you sign to an esports team, you get, you know, it's, it's like, it's. It's amazing. So the, the money is only increasing. I mean, there's a serious amount of money and resources that's being invested in chess. A lot of people are trying to revolutionize the game, trying to make it more of a commercial sport.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it'd be cool to see it in the actual Olympics. I know you said there is a Chess Olympiad, but that's separate, so.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, the Chess Olympiad is, is in Uzbekistan this year. However, there is a chance that chess could be added to the Olympics. Although it's not a physical sport, the host city or country has the right to nominate and choose a sport. And chess as a part of the ioc, even I got. I took a piss test last world Championship, and India, being, let's say the birthplace of chess, is allegedly very, very likely to, to nominate chess to the.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Hans Niemann]

And that's in 2036.

[Interviewer]

That'd be massive.

[Hans Niemann]

So 10 years from now. I mean, Olympic team chess, I mean, that'd be pretty cool.

[Interviewer]

That'd be awesome. Yeah. It doesn't look like the US would nominate it. Right. Two years, 28.

[Hans Niemann]

I guess I'll have to call Trump and see what we can do.

[Interviewer]

I'm sure he has someone in the family that plays. I feel like it's so common now.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, I actually went to the same high school. Baron.

[Interviewer]

No way. Yeah, the Netherlands I saw you talk about.

[Hans Niemann]

No, no, it was a private school in New York during his.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Hans Niemann]

But he was two years below me.

[Interviewer]

Okay. I saw that viral IQ test clip.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He. He didn't really let me explain. But the thing with baton is weird. He thinks he's really smart. I think he's a smart guy, but he thinks he's too smart, I think.

[Interviewer]

Agreed.

[Hans Niemann]

I think he thinks he's a lot smarter than he is. I mean, he's a sharp. No, but I mean, I don't wanna. The thing is, is that it was very funny that I have 260. We actually played chess after the podcast.

[Interviewer]

Oh, did you?

[Hans Niemann]

And he lost in like three minutes.

[Interviewer]

I mean, that makes sense.

[Hans Niemann]

I mean, yeah, that's nothing to blame, but it was. We should have played chess on the podcast. I mean, that would have been a good idea, but, yeah, we played. He made me play him. Like. No, he was. He's like, very bad, I would say.

[Interviewer]

I'm trying to get to. My goal is 2000 in my lifetime. I think that that's doable.

[Hans Niemann]

What's your current rating?

[Interviewer]

1600.

[Hans Niemann]

It's not bad. Yeah. 2000. What time?

[Interviewer]

Control blitz. Five minute.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, five minute. Make some opening tweaks, keep competing. It's very, very possible. Just. You have to be careful the plateaus. A lot of people, you hit your first plateau. It, you know, I'm on one right now for the, for the rest of the life. I mean, it. The plateaus are really. People underestimate the, the learning curve of chess. You know, once you kind of hit that first plateau, if, if you let it, if, if you sit for. At that level for too long, it's kind of like a. Like a glacier. You could just be frozen for the rest of your life.

[Interviewer]

I mean, that's my fear because I'm. I want to hear about your plateaus and how you overcame them. But, yeah, I've been stuck at 1600 for a year now, so I don't know if I need to spice it up or do something new.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, I had a plateau from. So when I was from. From my. For the second. Second half of sixth grade and all of seventh grade, I was homeschooled and I had this big breakthrough. I was living near New York, and then I had to go back to school, which was a decision of my parents, which I really didn't, you know, which was not great for my chess. And I. And at that point, before I went back to school, I was a number three, like, ranked under 12 for. For my age in the world. And then I stayed at the same rating for three years. And while all these guys were becoming grand masters, competing this. That, I was just, you know, playing Fortnite and doing a geometry homework. I mean, a complete waste of my time. And there was this one summer that I was like, I Quit chess. I was like, I'm done with chess. Such a stupid game. What a waste of my time. And then I did, I started doing these calculation puzzles and I started building out my, my thought process, my ability to calculate, my ability to really, really hone in on my calculation skills. And you know, that led to insane improvement. I kind of, I got my. I became an international master in that. And I just like spiked in rating and I had a huge breakthrough just, just from really, really focusing on my weaknesses. So you have to have a really strong ability to be accountable and to sort of be introspective and you know, at a lower level, it's harder to have that awareness, introspection. But, you know, deep down you kind of know this opening or oh, I always flag or oh, I always blunder, you know.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Hans Niemann]

I mean, you kind of only you truly know what's going on in your brain. So it takes sort of a level of introspection to.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, to really.

[Hans Niemann]

A personal introspection in combination with coaches advice to, to really improve.

[Interviewer]

Maybe I'll take a few months and just do the puzzles on chess.com.

[Hans Niemann]

yeah. And also, I mean, playing slower games can be better. Sometimes you. I mean, it might not be fun, but sometimes you should play 10 +0. Force yourself to really think. Or maybe you should change your openings or maybe. I mean, I haven't seen your game, so it's hard for me to opine. But that's my general advice.

[Interviewer]

What was the next plateau for you? Was there another one after that sixth grade one?

[Hans Niemann]

Well, the next big plateau was, you know, post Sinfield cup when my life was like ruined and I had no opportunities. So yeah, that plateau lasted like two years of no opportunities. And now I'm almost up top 10 of the world. So I didn't really have any. I kind of. I progressed very quickly since then until everything was ruined. Wow.

[Interviewer]

So you're doing a lot of puzzles those two years.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, I mean, a lot. Yeah, A lot of just sitting on my, you know, hands, like, what do I do with my time? Because it's hard to motivate, it's hard to be motivated when you don't have anything to play. You know, like, you're kind of like, what am I, what am I wasting all my time? You know?

[Interviewer]

How close were you to quitting during that time period? Never a thought

[Hans Niemann]

for me to quit chess. It's like I'll just like disappear into some island. Like, I have no reason to live without chess. I mean, like, I mean that can be interpreted in like a depressing way. But for me, chess is my life. Like chess has been my entire life since I was 8 years old. Like, chess is my complete passion and fulfillment and mission and my life's work. So, I mean, no, at no point. Wow. Did I think about quitting. No, no, I was. Not even, not even like the thought didn't even enter like a 1000 mile radius of my, of my mind.

[Interviewer]

That's impressive because you had the whole media against you, a lot of the chess mafia against you.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, but I mean, you know, that happens in life. Look, look what they. Look what happened to Fisher. I mean, Fisher, you know, the Soviet Union completely controlled chess and, and, and everything was rigged and all the tournament formats were rigged and he had no support. And this is a time before technology, so, you know, you have far less access to information. You know, the, the democratization of, of information in the, the AI era, you know, makes things a lot fairer. But you know, if he can overcome, if he can literally defeat the KGB and the greatest intellectual battleground, then you know, I can handle some like, you know, wannabe cult leader, chess mafia, like creeps, you know, I mean, yeah, I can, I should be able to do my best. Obviously it's not easy, but I mean, I just kind of, I just look at people who had it worse and I tell myself I should be grateful. Like Korchno defected from. Victor Kor is probably the greatest chess player who never became world champion. Defected from the Soviet Union, was worried that he's going to be assassinated by the kgb. Political asylum. You know, son was in prison. They would send hypnotists to his matches to like to mess with him. I mean, for now I've got it easy. You know, it's just everything's relative in life, right? Look, look at, you know, look at Paul. Look what politicians have to deal with. Look at what public figures have to deal with. I mean, it's. For the chess world that's the worst, I mean, it's the worst someone has experienced in modern history, but. Right, compared to what other, you know, what people like Elon Musk have to deal with on a daily basis or other people. It's. Obviously I'm still quite young and I don't have their resources and, and their, their influence and their ability to, to, to sway public opinion. But I try to just tell. The only efficient thing to tell yourself is be grateful. Make the best move on the board. I mean, this, this applies to life and not only to chess, but sometimes in life you have no Good moves, but you still have to make the best move. You know, you can't just. You can never give up or. Or feel sorry for yourself. I mean, it's just. Just never productive.

[Interviewer]

Did you have this mindset while you were going through it, or did it come afterwards?

[Hans Niemann]

There were some periods where I maybe was not as. I didn't have the same foresight and patience, but slowly but surely, I developed more of a deeper understanding of the path forward and that I just simply had to be very, very patient.

[Interviewer]

That must have been hard for you. Patience is not my strength.

[Hans Niemann]

Well, yeah, it was quite. Quite the patience. But once you start to see the light at the end of the tunnel, the light only starts shining brighter, and that makes it easier to go forward.

[Interviewer]

I've seen the argument where this actually. I don't know how you feel about this, but there's some people saying that this helped your career in the long run. It's made.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah. You know, this I actually find, like, to be really, really disgusting because anyone else who experienced what I did, I think. Did you have that girl Nemo on who said that?

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah. I mean, honestly, I think I saw that clip. You know, to say that it helped me. I. I honestly find to be a really, really just, like, abhorrent and unempathetic thing to say because, like, what I experienced at the age of 19 would have destroyed not only someone's chess career, but would have destroyed someone mentally that they would have honestly, like, I'm gonna just not even talk about myself. Anyone who experienced that it would have been the end of their chess career and would. Should have ruined my. It honestly should have ruined my life. Like, if I look at it from a practical perspective, that. That honestly should have been, like, the thing that destroyed my life. And, like, I don't know what. What would have happened to. To. To. To anyone else, but I had the unique resilience also the fact that, like, I benefited from it. You know, the. The main reason why public opinion has swayed in my favor has because. Has been because of how resilient I've been on the chessboard and the achievements, you know, and all the things that I've done on the chessboard have been my own sort of. I'm responsible for that. And that's what's shown people how false those accusations were.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Hans Niemann]

So, you know, if I, you know, kind of disappeared and wasn't able to compete at the highest level anymore, a lot of people would just say, oh, you know, the accusations were true. Look at him now. He can't compete. But, you know, from a lot of the people's perspective, from what I've been told, you know, they're saying, wow, you're doing so well. Of course, these are fault, this is false. So I personally, like anyone who says that, I just, I just can't really engage with them because it just shows a very, very deep and lack of understanding of, like, reality and how intense it was, what I experienced. And to me, anyone who thinks that is just blindly obsessed with fame because, you know, it just shows, I think, a lack of understanding of like, the, the consequences of infamy. Because you should make a very clear distinction between fame and infamy, right? Being famous, you know, even like celebrities say, you know, be rich, not famous. You know, I mean, being famous is one thing. I don't, you know, it's not. I don't think being famous is nice. I don't think it's like a great, I mean, if I could achieve everything, I could achieve and just like, not be a public figure and just focus on chess and give away all my fame and reputation, I would, I would, I would snap my finger so quickly, you know. But people kind of confuse and they idolize this concept of fame and infamy without realizing, you know, I mean, the real consequences it can have with some, someone's life.

[Interviewer]

I also think when it comes to Magnus, you know, everyone just believes him because he's like a lot of people's role model and idol, right? So they, they see him say something and they're like, that must be true. So I feel like that played a role too.

[Hans Niemann]

It was also, I mean, no one really stood up for me. I didn't have the, A lot of chess players have a country behind them, have a team behind them, have a support system. At that point, I had no support. No one stood up for me.

[Interviewer]

Not one person.

[Hans Niemann]

In a meaningful way. No.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Hans Niemann]

Early on, in a meaningful way, that made an impact and that really, really stuff for me. No. Wow.

[Interviewer]

That's crazy. Not a single person.

[Hans Niemann]

I mean, in the early stages, I would say, I would say, like there was, I mean, I, I, I, I own, I just, you know, it's just, it just, it reminds you in life that you should never rely on anyone. I mean, either, you know, it's a very American thing. You know, you pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, right? I mean, either in life when those things happen to you, you sink or swim and, and you fail, or you, you, you succeed or you disappear. I mean, that's, that's the, I guess the silver lining of experiencing something so insane. Because when you do experience something so insane, either it makes you, you. You establish an ins, you know, an extreme degree of mental resilience or you collapse. I mean, in my opinion, there's, there's no, there's no in between.

[Interviewer]

When did the first GM support you? How many months in.

[Hans Niemann]

Well, there are people who kind of lightly supported me, like, oh, you know, there's no evidence this and that. But I would say the one person who I vividly remember is Jacob Agard, who was one of my. I had a. He was a coach of mine. Not, not a serious coach, but we had a training camp and he wrote a post about our training camp and he, he spoke to my talent and he wrote a very, very nice message about how much I impressed him in our training camp and how he thought all these accusations were completely insane because he had seen my, my gift and my talent.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Hans Niemann]

You know, himself. Wow.

[Interviewer]

So you really had to think about someone. That's crazy.

[Hans Niemann]

I mean, and I think that was like months after. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Now you said the public opinion swayed in your favor though, right?

[Hans Niemann]

Among, I mean, with regards to the Sinquel cup and the legitimacy of my over the board strength, I would say it's completely swayed, however, and among top chess players as well. However, you know, the, the, these accusations were amplified to such a degree that there are people who just like only read one thing and then they think that's a fact forever and they never really were around for the. My success and come back. So they have no idea.

[Interviewer]

You know, I feel like that's most of the population in general, they just read headlines, right?

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, exactly. So there's like, you know, millions upon millions people in the world who just read one headline and they associate my name with that and that could never be changed, you know, so I just have to choose something ten times bigger.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Hans Niemann]

So that's, that's the only solution.

[Interviewer]

Well, I'll be ruin for you, man. I did want to talk about your company, Endgame AI. I was playing around with that site. What's that about?

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, it's a chess platform. You can, you can play chess. You have like a. We have a custom like AI Chess coach coming. So that could be help. Good for your improvement. Like you can analyze your games, you can ask about positions. Like it'll basically assess all your games. So that's something that you should, I mean, you should check out personally. We might have some interesting like high stakes matches on there. I don't know how Much. You're into crypto or all that stuff?

[Interviewer]

I'm heavy into crypto, yeah.

[Hans Niemann]

So, you know, we've got some interesting new features. I think what we're going to work on is, is going to be very unique in the chess world. And I want, you know, I want to make chess like the ufc. I want to bring the personalities. I want to have chess in a boxing gym. I mean, a boxing arena. Maybe, Maybe, maybe, maybe in Vegas.

[Chime Advertiser]

So chess boxing.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, yeah. Chessboxing without the boxing part. But, you know, I think we're trying to revolutionize chess. You know, we raised some venture capital, we've got a great technical team. So, you know, we're kind of. I call it the sort of the chess resistance. You know, the chess mafia has done a lot of terrible things and is a monopoly and doesn't really care about the game. So, you know, our principles are sort of, you know, we care about the game of chess. First. We want to support the professional chess ecosystem. We want to provide a really high quality service and then not charge ridiculous amount and have a lot of stuff available for free so people can improve respect.

[Interviewer]

When you say they don't care about the game, what do you mean by that?

[Hans Niemann]

I mean, they kind of pretend to be stewards of the game, but, you know, they've been cutting down all their prize money for their events. They. They bought out. They routinely buy out companies and then shut them down just so they kill their competitor. Like, they bought Magnus's company. They play Magnus group for, for 82 million and then they shut down all these amazing companies. Like, they bought this publishing house and they just didn't want to run it, so they just like gave it away for free. I mean, like, they just don't. They don't care about the game. For them, chess is just a vehicle to make money. And for me, as a chess player who deeply cares about the ecosystem and the entire, the coaches, the players, the kids, it's an entire, you know, scholastic is an entire ecosystem. And it's important to me that there's fair competition so that, you know, everyone is, you know, receives opportunities and people can make a living from chess. You know, whether it's a coach, player or, you know, content creator.

[Interviewer]

That's interesting.

[Chime Advertiser]

When I saw the documentary, they were

[Interviewer]

interviewing the Chess.com guys. One of the founders said he believes the company's worth close to a billion. I actually thought that was low. I thought it is low.

[Hans Niemann]

I would say it's probably around 2.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that felt super low to me when he Said that.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, I mean they're all. Yeah, they don't, they're not really into like, they didn't raise much venture capital so their valuations multiple is probably a bit lower. But yeah, I would say that one's quick. I would say 1.5 to 2.

[Chime Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Do you see an opportunity there to kind of eat at that market share with this new.

[Hans Niemann]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, we've received, you know, backing from some of the, you know, best venture capitalists and huge firms. So, you know, we've got resources and a great team and you know, for us it's just to make it a great product that people enjoy and you know, I mean, from, from there that, that's, that's all you can, can do and try to scale it as much as possible.

[Interviewer]

Absolutely. What else is next for you, man?

[Hans Niemann]

Just competing a lot. Just competing a lot. I'm playing and going to Warsaw, then competing in Belgrade. I don't know how many fans you have out there, but I don't even know. Yeah, yeah. Belgrade is the capital of Serbia. Okay. Any Serbian fans of a big match in Belgrade, you can come watch. It'll be open to the public.

[Interviewer]

Nice. Yeah, that's just a tour, it's not a tournament.

[Hans Niemann]

It's a tournament I'm hosting. It's a one on one match against Yan Napoleonishi. He was, he, he was the world championship challenger twice.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I know him. Yeah. Nice.

[Hans Niemann]

So yeah, I'll play a match against him and then against Jordan Ben Forest, who's then like a top 15 player in the world as well.

[Interviewer]

Must be hard for you to find matches in the, in America these days.

[Hans Niemann]

Well, yeah, it's hard to plan it with the players but you know, you do your best.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Well, Hans, thanks for your time, man. We'll link everything, we'll link the documentary. This was fun, man. Good luck to you for the rest.

[Hans Niemann]

Thank you so much. Okay, take care. Bye bye. See you.

[Chime Advertiser]

Thanks for watching to the end, guys. Please comment below your thoughts on the

[Interviewer]

episode if you agree.

[Chime Advertiser]

If you disagree, I'd love to hear. I read every single comment.

[Interviewer]

Means a lot to me. Thank you so much.