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Dr Sara Gottfried & Brad Jacobs: The #1 Skill Men Are Missing And It’s Not Confidence | DSH #1811
00:30:26
In this quick episode from A4M, Sean sits down with Dr. Sarah Gottfried and Brad Jacobs for a real conversation on modern masculinity, stress, and why so many high-achievers struggle with regulation—especially in relationships. They break down how childhood experiences can shape adult behavior (and even long-term health), why “strength” without emotional skill can backfire, and what it actually looks like to build a calm, grounded version of masculinity that’s protective and emotionally aware. They also talk physiology—testosterone, cortisol, HRV, sleep—and how to track the right markers so you’re not guessing. If you’re trying to perform at a high level without burning out your nervous system, this one’s a practical reset. Chapters 00:00 — Are men & women changing roles in modern culture? 00:59 — Live from A4M: quick intro + how they met 02:10 — Strong vs. shut down: what “healthy masculinity” looks like 03:00 — The ACE score: how childhood stress affects adulthood 03:23 — Tra...
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- [00:00]
A
Now, do both of you feel like women are being a little masculine these days though, because they have to work more than they used to?
- [00:06]
B
In the past, I've been at these institutions where there are a lot of women who are incredibly masculine and sometimes even have toxic masculine. And so it makes sense because women are fighting in a system where often men have power over them and it's the way that they've reacted. But I don't think we want to match the behavior of power over and toxic masculinity. Women need to like really reach into their biology and respond from that way way. Women are incredibly good at regulation. We're really good at co regulation. Kind of like what you do with a baby to calm a baby down when it's upset. And so that's where we need to really shine, is to regulate ourselves and co regulate others.
- [00:44]
C
And when you think about masculinity, I think of it around a polarity. You know, we talk a lot about feminism, but femininity, divine femininity, powerful, beautiful and divine, authentic masculinity.
- [00:59]
A
All right, guys, we are here at a 4 and we got Dr. Sarah Gottfried here today and Brad Jacobs and doing a little fun episode. Did a quick little 25 minute episode. Thanks for joining us, guys.
- [01:08]
B
Hey, Sean, happy to be with you.
- [01:09]
A
Yeah, nice to meet both of you. How did you two meet and get acquainted?
- [01:12]
C
Yeah, good to be here. We met about 30 plus years ago as intern.
- [01:16]
A
Wow. Older than I am.
- [01:18]
B
Yeah. I was just gonna ask, were you born.
- [01:20]
A
Yeah, 28.
- [01:21]
C
Exactly.
- [01:23]
A
So you were both interns at the same company?
- [01:24]
C
We were.
- [01:25]
A
Same.
- [01:26]
C
Same hospital. UC San Francisco.
- [01:28]
A
Holy crap.
- [01:28]
B
Yeah, we were little interns, you know, little white jackets, stethoscopes around our necks. Total dorks.
- [01:34]
C
Great green.
- [01:35]
A
A lot's changed to sign off.
- [01:36]
C
Y.
- [01:37]
A
Were you like friends the whole way through or did you rekindle at some point?
- [01:40]
C
Rekindled professionally. What? Decade ago.
- [01:43]
B
I always had thoughts from.
- [01:45]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's what it was.
- [01:47]
C
And vice versa you're talking about. She says that, but I don't know if I believe her.
- [01:51]
A
When you're talking about masculinity, I mean.
- [01:53]
C
Yep.
- [01:54]
A
It's a good topic to get girls interested in you. Right?
- [01:56]
C
It is. We've got to lean in and you got to see if they're ready, if they can take it and handle it.
- [01:59]
B
And well, if it's done right.
- [02:01]
A
Right. There's a lot of. We were talking about this before we started filming how it's not done right in certain circles.
- [02:07]
C
That's right. Yeah.
- [02:08]
A
Toxic Masculinity, they call it.
- [02:10]
C
Yeah. Or even the opposite, the collapse where people just give all their power over to the women. Right.
- [02:14]
A
Yeah.
- [02:14]
C
And the zero sum game.
- [02:16]
A
What would you call that? A simper?
- [02:18]
C
Yeah. People. Spineless, floppy, a simp. I call it M2. I call it M1. This M3 method I've been building out that really focus on M1 or folks that are strong, decisive, protective. The good parts that emotionally shut down.
- [02:34]
A
And this is a good segue. But like who a man is today is a lot to do. What they like, how they grew up with. Right. Oh, it's what you specialize in.
- [02:41]
B
Yeah. What, what was modeled, what kind of experience they had with power, you know, was it abusive? Was it used in a way that was, you know, trying to change behavior in a negative way? So you can measure that. You can do it with the first childhood experiences score.
- [03:00]
A
Yeah, I took her test. We'll link it in the video for people watching. I got a seven and it's out of nine, right?
- [03:06]
B
That's right. So that's pretty high. Assign.
- [03:08]
A
Yeah, that's pretty high. And I mind you, I grew up in a middle class, upper class family, you know, both self made millionaire parents, and I still got a seven.
- [03:17]
B
Yeah. So it's, you know, you can't tell from looking at a person what their ACE score is. And what we know is that that level of trauma is associated with 45 different diseases. Not just the ones you think of like depression or anxiety or even post traumatic stress disorder, but autoimmune disease, stroke, cardiovascular disease. Wow, there's a long list.
- [03:40]
A
And you're saying this. I mean, while I just got a blood test last month, I'm on pace for an autoimmune disease. So I didn't even realize that could be connected to childhood trauma.
- [03:49]
B
A lot of people don't realize it. I mean, the good news is when you identify the trauma and how it affects your physiology, you can do something about it. So there's lots of ways that you can take that trauma footprint and change it.
- [04:02]
A
Yeah. Are you seeing trauma in a lot of guys that are talking with.
- [04:06]
C
Yeah, a lot of guys. And you know, Sarah wrote a book called the Autoimmune Cure, which really sort of looks at just this, what we're talking about. Yeah. And this adverse childhood experience ACE questionnaire that you filled out that I really encourage people to fill out. Really? Oh, I think it. Right. Sizes things and lets you really realize, oh, wow, this, you know, a lot of us cope and manage and think our childhood was Manageable. And I've moved on.
- [04:32]
A
That's what I thought. I guess I just bottled it all in and just wrote it off as normal.
- [04:36]
C
Yeah, well.
- [04:37]
B
And a lot of people become very self reliant. They become achievement oriented as a way of trying to create safety and security. And so a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of really successful people have high ACE scores.
- [04:52]
A
Interesting.
- [04:53]
C
Yeah. Because they use that as the fire to go leave their environment and you know, Excel.
- [04:59]
A
I have noticed that because I've interviewed a lot of really financially successful people and a lot of them have some trauma for sure.
- [05:04]
C
Yeah. I'd say like 80% of them in my clinical practice. I see it all day long. I would say at least half to two thirds of my, my patients have significant trauma.
- [05:13]
D
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- [06:11]
C
Wow. And they, and they just lock it down, compartmentalize it and they achieve professionally.
- [06:16]
A
Yeah.
- [06:16]
C
And then often the personal life can be a bit volatile.
- [06:19]
A
So it makes you wonder what the best route to tackle the trauma is and if it's helping you in certain areas of your life but not in others.
- [06:25]
C
Right, exactly.
- [06:26]
A
How to navigate that.
- [06:27]
C
Yeah.
- [06:27]
B
I think awareness is where you start. So knowing what your A score is is critical. And then you have to look at your relationships.
- [06:34]
A
Right.
- [06:34]
B
You know, I think it's, it really shows up in relationships. Tends to show up often with success in the kind of folks that we're talking about here. But then their relationships might suffer. So if you get into a trauma bond with a partner that can lead to a lot of issues where you know, you're, you're trying to resolve some of that power over dynamic. So unless you rise the occasion and you've got awareness about it, it can cause problems.
- [07:03]
C
And when it comes to men.
- [07:04]
A
Yeah.
- [07:04]
C
You know, you were asking about like you call them a simp. Like a lot of folks experience trauma and then they want to model what they experience as a, as a father, as an adult. Right. Or they do the opposite and they're like, I want nothing to do with what I experience. And so I'm going to give all my power over to my partner. And if it's a woman, you're giving to a woman and then you lose your own compass. Right. So I call that M2 and then M3. You take the both.
- [07:31]
A
Right.
- [07:31]
C
You take the positive aspects of an M1 which is toxic, but not only toxic. There you can be strong, protective, decisive. And if you're emotionally aware, which these M2 guys are, but they've given away their power, then you have the best of both worlds.
- [07:46]
A
Interesting. Yeah, I definitely think the sympting is hot. But also what's even hotter right now is this incel movement. What do you think about that? There's a couple people really leading that movement right now.
- [07:56]
C
Yeah, I mean my, look, my concerns about it are that people self isolate, they get angry and shut down about sort of where they're at and then they get very what I call fundamentalist about it. And I think there's a, there's a path where you can actually not be so reactive to what's going on and be participatory and work together collaboratively. And I feel like the incels are not working together collaboratively. They create their own insular environment and then they're focused on reacting against everything around them.
- [08:27]
A
Right.
- [08:28]
C
Rather than finding a way to find some collaborative event, you know, clever opportunities.
- [08:33]
A
Yeah. Their mind seems to be made up.
- [08:34]
B
Right, Mind's made up. And I wonder about regulation, like are they regulated? Because to me ultimately masculinity and its best expression is a man who's regulated. Yeah, that's what I want.
- [08:49]
A
Someone that can control their emotions.
- [08:51]
B
Well, not necessarily control it, but work with it, surf their emotions, manage them, be able to talk about them, be able to calm themselves down without requiring, you know, things like alcohol or drugs to do it.
- [09:03]
C
Yeah. What I like to say is men don't need to be shamed, they just need to learn how to be regulated. Men aren't toxic. Right. They're just mostly shut down. They're not toxic. They Just need to learn how to regulate themselves.
- [09:17]
A
Yeah.
- [09:17]
C
Right. So let's not cancel men. Let's help them learn how to regulate themselves. Masculinity is a trainable skill.
- [09:24]
A
You think so?
- [09:24]
C
I do. And I measure masculinity.
- [09:26]
A
How do you measure it?
- [09:27]
C
Yeah. So we can look at physiologic markers, we look at testosterone, we look at cortisol, we look at heart rate variability. And then we can also do psychological profiling. And one piece is the ACE questionnaire that you're talking about. But there's. How do people relate with power? How do they relate with boundaries? Right. So there's ways you can.
- [09:45]
B
Attachment, secure attachment, man.
- [09:46]
C
Secure attachment. And you can do all that and then say, okay, this is where I'm at. And now we'll do lifestyle intervention. Just starting with lifestyle, sometimes with certain supplements that you need that you're deficient in as well. Right. We're trying to get to the biology of our masculinity. So rather than shaming people, it's a mindset. You just need to change your mindset. Let's look into your biology and physiology.
- [10:07]
A
Now, do both of you feel like women are being a little masculine these days though, because they have to work more than they used to in the past?
- [10:15]
C
Yeah, it's a great question. You want to start with that?
- [10:17]
B
I think it's a mix. I mean, I see a lot of women that are in their full feminine power and that is totally hot.
- [10:24]
A
Yeah.
- [10:24]
B
Like that's really what we want.
- [10:26]
C
So I think that would be this woman right here.
- [10:30]
B
I mean, what we. Listen, I, I've been at these institutions where there are a lot of women who are incredibly masculine and sometimes even have toxic masculinity. Wow. And so it makes sense because women are fighting in a system where often men have power over them and it's the way that they've reacted. But I don't think we want to match the behavior of power over and toxic masculinity.
- [10:58]
D
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- [11:54]
B
Need to like really reach into their biology and respond from that way. Women are incredibly good at regulation. We're really good at co regulation. Kind of like what you do with a baby to calm a baby down when it's upset. And so that's where we need to really shine, is to regulate ourselves and co regulate others.
- [12:15]
C
And when you think about masculinity, I think they're on a polarity. You know, we talk a lot about feminism, but femininity, divine femininity, powerful, beautiful and divine, authentic masculinity. And that too is like you can't stop that. That's fierce and that's what you want. Right? And frankly that's what the incels are missing. Like come on man, lean in. Take a chance, have some courage, try it. Find a woman who's not going to be toxic in their as a toxic masculine toxic. I think frankly the strong feminists are exhibiting many of them toxic masculinity.
- [12:49]
A
Agreed. Yeah, I think the insulting long term can be dangerous because there's a lot of studies on longevity and how if you're with a partner, you actually have increased lifespan.
- [12:57]
B
Well that's true for men, it's not true for women.
- [13:00]
A
Oh really?
- [13:01]
B
Now women need to be with their girlfriends.
- [13:03]
A
Wow, so we're stressing out the ladies too much, huh? Holy crap.
- [13:07]
C
We men live longer when we got a partner.
- [13:09]
A
Enough.
- [13:09]
C
Funny.
- [13:10]
A
Wow, I wonder why that is.
- [13:12]
C
Yeah, well we really men don't have as many friends as women. That's part of that. Right. We I self isolate. Right. Nowadays one that most men don't have, they can't name four friends that they have. Right. So it's really rough and men often are depressed, they're isolated and it's gotten worse over the past couple decades largely because we live in a technological world and so we self isolate and relate, you know, digitally rather than in person like we're doing here today.
- [13:40]
A
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I How do you regulate who? I would say through exercise, basketball and chess and stuff. That just keeps me calm. Maybe video games once in a while. Yeah, I try to stay on top of it. Because I used to have crippling anxiety to the point where I was collapsing on the ground in college.
- [13:59]
B
So you've learned how to regulate yourself. You found these healthy ways to do it.
- [14:03]
A
Yeah.
- [14:03]
B
And then you're also in a marriage.
- [14:05]
A
Yeah. And that's been a journey too.
- [14:08]
C
Yeah.
- [14:08]
A
You know, a lot of ups and downs there.
- [14:10]
C
Yeah. I like to say when we talk about it, Sarah and I, we talk about it's all about repair. Like, you know, there's going to be a lot of volatility potentially. There's a lot of drama.
- [14:20]
B
There's mistakes, there's accidents. I spilled water on your laptop the other day.
- [14:26]
A
That was a recent moment.
- [14:28]
C
And I lost my shit.
- [14:29]
A
Laptops are expensive.
- [14:30]
C
I lost my shit. I lost it. But we repair. Always a big test.
- [14:37]
A
My Mac is. Yeah. If I lost that overnight, I'd be pissed. Yeah.
- [14:41]
C
And then like, okay, A, it's, it's uploaded. B, she didn't mean it. And like pull it together, Brad. And then we did for an Act 2. We're like, let me try this again, babe. Let me try this again.
- [14:51]
B
Yeah.
- [14:51]
A
The repair.
- [14:52]
B
It's all about the repair.
- [14:53]
C
Yeah.
- [14:54]
B
And I didn't learn repair as a kid. I think when you have an A score, like I do have six. You have an A score of seven. Did you get much repair from your parents? Did you have a blowout and then.
- [15:04]
A
No dissolution after either. Got yelled at, Sent to my room and then nothing.
- [15:09]
B
Yeah.
- [15:09]
A
Like it was no compromise. Yeah. No, I really didn't. And that's been a challenge in my relationship just to keep it honest with you guys. Like conflict resolution.
- [15:18]
C
Yeah.
- [15:18]
A
Because I never had that growing up.
- [15:20]
C
Yeah.
- [15:20]
B
I'm all to teach it to ourselves.
- [15:22]
A
Yeah.
- [15:22]
C
And I simple as like, okay, let me try that one more time. That didn't come out right. Take two, you know, day two.
- [15:31]
A
Yeah. Sometimes pausing for a little bit for me totally decompress a little before I engage.
- [15:36]
C
Yeah.
- [15:37]
A
Because I. She says I have a tone sometimes and I don't even notice.
- [15:40]
C
Yeah, me too.
- [15:41]
A
I gotta like process that, you know.
- [15:43]
C
Yeah.
- [15:43]
B
Well, women are really sensitive to tone.
- [15:46]
A
Probably more sensitive ever. Tell me I is. Yeah. Non verbals too. Look up on everything.
- [15:53]
C
Yeah. We don't even notice it.
- [15:54]
A
I can't even lie to her. Like she'll pick up on it instantly. So I stopped lying or smart man years ago. But yeah, they know.
- [16:01]
B
Yeah.
- [16:01]
A
Very intuitive.
- [16:02]
B
Yeah.
- [16:02]
A
It's good. It's good to have though for like other. Bringing other people in your life and having Your girl meet them.
- [16:08]
C
That's right.
- [16:09]
A
Yeah. They're great at that.
- [16:10]
C
And they become your sort of protector, your wing person. They could read everyone and they'll look.
- [16:14]
A
Over their intentions, you know, without even talking to them. They know.
- [16:17]
C
Yeah.
- [16:17]
A
It's crazy if men find any sense. Yeah. That's probably why they're designed that way, though, right? To be together.
- [16:24]
C
That's right.
- [16:25]
A
We help them physically, they help us more.
- [16:26]
C
Yeah. That's what I'm talking about.
- [16:27]
A
Right.
- [16:28]
C
Like, they. We each have strengths, right? Women have their strengths, we have ours. And together it's powerful. Yeah.
- [16:33]
A
I love that. What are you guys doing here? You're getting some talks. Day four.
- [16:38]
B
I've got five hours of lectures today.
- [16:40]
A
Five hours.
- [16:41]
B
I started at eight.
- [16:42]
A
Oh, my God.
- [16:42]
B
Were you even up yet?
- [16:44]
A
I just Woke up at 8. That's early for me. Yeah, I'm usually up at 9. 10.
- [16:47]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [16:48]
A
8 is early.
- [16:49]
C
Yeah.
- [16:50]
A
What were you talking about?
- [16:51]
B
Female longevity.
- [16:52]
C
Okay.
- [16:53]
B
Yeah. It's all about the ovaries. That's an organ of longevity that we need to be paying more attention to.
- [16:58]
A
So that's where a lot of health issues are starting from, for sure.
- [17:01]
B
You know, you think about your heart cells, mitochondria, and how they power your cell. Your heart cells have about 2500 mitochondria. Your ovaries mature oocyte, a million mitochondria. So if you have mitochondrial problems, you know, you're too stressed, you eat too much sugar, you don't get enough sleep, it shows up in your ovaries.
- [17:23]
C
Wow.
- [17:24]
A
And I'm sure birth control shows up there, too.
- [17:26]
B
It sure does. Lots of problems.
- [17:27]
A
That's destroying women's ovaries, right?
- [17:30]
B
Well, it causes a lot of problems. Increases inflammation, reduces testosterone levels, can decrease libido. It can cause gut changes, like microbiome changes. So it causes a lot of issues. In terms of how it affects longevity, we don't really know.
- [17:49]
A
Time will tell. Yeah. I just found out women are having testosterone issues, too. Do you know that?
- [17:54]
C
Well, you know, environment plays a huge role, I think. What do you think, Sarah, about testosterone changes in women?
- [18:01]
B
Yeah, I mean, we see both testosterone that's too low in women and also too high. So too high is polycystic ovary syndrome. It's similar to low T in men. And then too low is often related to too much stress, too much cortisol. I see that a lot in hustlers, people who are part of the hustle culture.
- [18:20]
A
Yeah, Yeah. I used to be part of that.
- [18:24]
B
You're not anymore. You Graduated.
- [18:25]
A
I still work a lot. I guess it depends what you consider hustle, but I used to, like, give up sleep and health for hustling.
- [18:31]
B
Yeah. That's hustle.
- [18:33]
A
Yeah. Now I'll have a balance there.
- [18:35]
C
Yeah.
- [18:36]
A
I'll go to the gym, I'll work out, I'll take my diet super serious. But when I started entrepreneurship, I didn't go to the gym for three years. Wow. That was hustle culture for sure.
- [18:44]
C
Yeah.
- [18:45]
A
Yeah. I sacrificed my health and my friendships and relationships. I had no friends.
- [18:48]
C
Yeah. So tell me about that. How did you re. Engage with your friends? New friends, Old friends. How'd that go?
- [18:55]
A
Pretty much new friends. And it was going to events like this, going to conferences, because like you said, the digital era, it's easy to get lost in that.
- [19:01]
C
Yeah.
- [19:02]
A
Just think you have a bunch of friends who are messaging them, never meeting in person. That's how a lot of kids operate these days.
- [19:06]
C
That's right.
- [19:07]
A
They got more online friends than physical friends.
- [19:09]
C
That's right. Yeah.
- [19:10]
A
It's pretty crazy.
- [19:11]
C
Yeah. To learn. I think there's going to be a backlash. I think as more and more AI infiltrates our society, that we're going to yearn for, like, connection and it'll get hyperlocal. That's what I'm hopeful for. We get hyper. Local people come and show up at the coffee shop or whatever.
- [19:25]
A
I hope so. It's definitely needed. How are you?
- [19:28]
B
It's leading to a mental health crisis right now. I mean, especially for men.
- [19:32]
C
That's right.
- [19:33]
B
We look at depression and anxiety and sleep issues.
- [19:37]
C
That's right. And more and more depression.
- [19:39]
B
Suicide.
- [19:40]
C
Yeah.
- [19:41]
A
I had a doctor on this morning, she was saying one out of two kids and teenagers are having a mental health condition diagnosed these days with.
- [19:48]
C
Right.
- [19:48]
A
Isn't that crazy?
- [19:49]
C
Yeah.
- [19:49]
A
One out of two.
- [19:50]
C
A lot of it's depression and anxiety and a lot of it's because of what we're talking about. Right. So, so did all that isolation that happened. So I'm encouraging people like, you just got to lean in, you got to show up in person for anything and just see what happens. Right. Just try. Experiment. Yeah. Show up at, you know, whether it's, you know, it's. It's comfortable, convenient to be in your home, but if you can just show up at the local surf shop, the local cafe, the local.
- [20:20]
B
He's showing school his favorite tendencies.
- [20:24]
A
I like surfing, I like cafes. Cafes feel homey to me.
- [20:27]
C
Right.
- [20:27]
A
Yeah. Especially the local ones. I don't go to, like, the mainstream ones.
- [20:30]
C
Yeah. You know.
- [20:31]
A
Yeah. These algorithms are out of hand these days.
- [20:34]
C
That's right.
- [20:35]
A
Everything that I. Unfortunately I have to be on them to like because I'm a podcaster, I have to study them. But I could see the comments and it's really negative on a lot of videos.
- [20:43]
D
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- [21:41]
A
Quantumupgradeio that's what kids are seeing all day, every day.
- [21:45]
B
Yeah. The algorithms hijack your amygdala, that part of the brain that's looking for threat and making you feel afraid. And so I think that's what we see as a result of more algorithms. So we have to be careful because that can create this negative spiral that we need to counter with a positive spiral.
- [22:04]
C
Yeah, I feel I call it the tail wagging the dog, you know. So the algorithms are hijacking us, we're the dog and all of a sudden our tails like making us do things we didn't realize we were doing and why we don't even realize they're doing it while it's happening. Next thing we know, we're down a rabbit hole.
- [22:20]
A
Doom scrolling is what they call it. Some kids do it for hours a day.
- [22:23]
C
That's right.
- [22:24]
A
It's. It's definitely addicting.
- [22:25]
C
Yeah.
- [22:26]
A
You know.
- [22:26]
C
Yeah. I mean I've watched my. I have a 22 year old and a 20 year old. I've watched my kids navigate. It's. And they've come in and out and then they set boundaries for themselves. Right. So their app automatically times out or there's a way that they try and manage it and they themselves had mental health challenges because of that and they've. So I think it's an active. I think we shouldn't blame ourselves. We shouldn't shame ourselves. I think it's happening to us or like the food is happening to us and we need to recognize it and then just take action as best we can.
- [22:55]
A
I just read a book how he was saying no phones till 16. He recommends.
- [22:59]
B
I like that.
- [23:00]
A
Yeah. 16.
- [23:01]
C
Yeah.
- [23:02]
A
That's when I got mine. I feel like that was a good age because I could still go out and play in nature and meet up with friends.
- [23:08]
C
Yeah. Was it Australia that recently passed some legislation?
- [23:11]
B
Yes.
- [23:11]
A
Oh, they did?
- [23:12]
C
Yeah.
- [23:12]
A
I didn't know that. 16.
- [23:13]
C
Yep. I think it was 16. What? Yeah.
- [23:15]
A
So no kids.
- [23:16]
C
Yep. Before. Wow.
- [23:18]
A
Good for them. I want to see how that plays out. Oh, sure. They'll do way better than. Yeah.
- [23:22]
B
The kids aren't excited about it.
- [23:25]
C
That's an older utter. I'm sure there'll be workarounds.
- [23:28]
A
Yeah. Come on. How are they gonna do that if we're being honest?
- [23:31]
C
Yeah.
- [23:31]
A
They're gonna go in your house and say, oh, you have a phone.
- [23:34]
C
Yeah.
- [23:35]
A
But good for them for at least trying to do something.
- [23:37]
C
Yeah. And I think now, at least, like my son as an example, started a non profit focused on nature and mental health for teenagers.
- [23:45]
A
Right.
- [23:45]
C
So he takes kids climbing, he does meditation if they're willing to do it, a little bit of journaling. But he gets kids active in the summer and summer camps because of this. Right. Which is a great way to like bring kids together doing activity. They like climbing and, and get them out of. Out of their house, you know.
- [24:02]
A
Yeah. Love me some nature. Even in the desert I still try to find a way to get some in, you know?
- [24:06]
C
Yep.
- [24:07]
A
Yeah.
- [24:07]
B
What do you like? What's your favorite?
- [24:10]
A
Can't be walking, honestly, like hiking.
- [24:12]
B
Yeah.
- [24:13]
A
I feel like that's hard to beat just walking through the woods to my happy place. I grew up in Jersey and did that a lot growing up. Good old grounding in the grass.
- [24:21]
C
That's right.
- [24:21]
A
Not much grass out here though. But no, I do what I can.
- [24:25]
B
Yeah. Well, hiking in nature, 10 minutes can change your cortisol. Like it's pretty dramatic how much it can change your stress levels from a 10 minute walk. 10 minute walk.
- [24:35]
C
Yeah. HRV heart rate variability. It's amazing how you can just change your physiology. And what's great now is you can measure that stuff. Right. It's easy. You can put on a ring or a watch. It's aura ring. Yeah.
- [24:47]
A
That's a new one.
- [24:49]
C
It is. Although it's completely beat up now because I. I use it for everything. Yeah.
- [24:54]
A
You know, I got the whoop at home.
- [24:55]
C
Yeah, whoop's great. Right? There's a lot of different devices coming out.
- [25:01]
A
Is that a ring? That's a room. Okay, I'll look into that one.
- [25:05]
C
Yeah, it's fun. And then you can just. I love just mapping. Okay. I'm going to run an experiment, like we call these. End of one experiment. So pre and post. All right. I'm going to see if my. If nature makes a difference. And I'm going to, like, go out, spend an hour, and then see what my hrv, my heart rate variability goes up. That's a good thing. Does my resting heart rate come down? That's a good thing. Does my sweep call, sleep quality score improve?
- [25:29]
A
What are the most important metrics for men you're tracking and then for women for health. Tracking health.
- [25:35]
C
Yeah. I mean, there's some similarities. We talk about the differences too, but Rem, so, you know, with dream sleep, ideally 25% of your sleep, or over an hour, ideally 90 minutes. She's a higher achiever. She'll tell you larger numbers. Deep sleep, also 90 minutes. Real important.
- [25:54]
B
I think two hours.
- [25:55]
C
Yeah, two hours. And then your HRV, or heart rate variability, which is basically the beat to beat, variation in your heartbeat. And frankly, the more variable it is, the better, which seems like what? That doesn't make sense. It's sort of like driving a car and you hit the gas, then the brake, then the gas and the brake. So you hate to drive behind those people, but actually that's a good thing. That means your sympathetic drive that's making you run super fast is being modulated, sort of checked with your parasympathetic part. That slows things down and takes in the bigger view.
- [26:24]
B
The healing side.
- [26:25]
C
The healing side.
- [26:25]
A
Got it.
- [26:26]
C
And that hrv, heart rate variability, you want increased, and then we look at morning cortisol levels.
- [26:32]
A
You can measure that?
- [26:33]
C
Oh, you can. And that's blood test.
- [26:35]
A
Or how does that.
- [26:36]
C
A blood test. You can also do salivary cortisol, look at a circadian rhythm.
- [26:40]
B
Let's test you. Sean, you want to do a test?
- [26:42]
A
Yeah. You got a test on you?
- [26:43]
B
I don't have it on me. I'll send it to you.
- [26:45]
A
Okay. Yeah, I'll do one. I love testing stuff.
- [26:47]
C
Oh, great. We got a whole bunch of stuff.
- [26:49]
A
I just test your blood test. I did a finger scan in the A4M. Yeah, I do the whoop.
- [26:54]
C
Great. Yeah. Testosterone would be great to test, too.
- [26:57]
A
I was 566. Which I felt like was low for my age.
- [27:00]
C
Yeah. So I. It's real important to look at total but also bio biologically available. We call free testosterone or bioavailable testosterone. Both of those measurements because total testosterone could be bound by other proteins. Something called albumin, something else called sex hormone binding globulin. So looking at free and bioavailable testosterone. So you might have a super high free or bioavailable.
- [27:23]
A
I think they measure those, so I'll check.
- [27:25]
C
So you want Those like above 100, 150 depending on what you're looking at. And your total might be look low 500. But those are biologically active. That's what you care about.
- [27:34]
A
Got it.
- [27:34]
B
And knowing your cortisol can help us understand your total testosterone too.
- [27:39]
A
I know that's high cuz when I got my MRI at pronuo they said they could see the stress on it. So I definitely have some of that.
- [27:45]
B
Yeah. Let's measure it.
- [27:46]
A
Yeah. I didn't know you could see stress on mri, but apparently you can.
- [27:50]
C
Yeah.
- [27:50]
A
You know.
- [27:51]
C
Well, I'm glad you went and got those scans. It's good. It's a good way to learn.
- [27:54]
A
That was a great scan. Shout out to Pruvo. Have you guys done that one?
- [27:56]
C
I have, yeah.
- [27:57]
A
Yeah. That changed my life.
- [27:58]
C
Yeah.
- [27:58]
A
This was my second one.
- [27:59]
C
We send a lot of our, our clients to them.
- [28:01]
A
I learned so much about my. I did the brain one this time because they just launched that and that was really interesting too.
- [28:07]
C
Yep, absolutely. And then you take all that data and then the is what do I do with it? Right.
- [28:10]
A
I threw it in the AI.
- [28:12]
C
Right. And half the time it's Right. Half time it's.
- [28:14]
A
I threw it into four different ones because. Yeah. I wanted to see if there were similarities. But yeah. Good.
- [28:18]
C
I think it really helps to have a clinician help navigate that.
- [28:21]
A
Agree. I. I ran through clinicians too.
- [28:24]
C
But I will say imaging they've done. They've tested this. So AI with a doctor versus AI alone looking at images. You know which one performed better?
- [28:34]
A
AI with doctor. Nope.
- [28:36]
B
Really?
- [28:37]
C
AI alone. Yeah. Because the doctors kept downgrading with the AI. They're.
- [28:41]
A
Nah, that's not right.
- [28:42]
C
That's not right. That's. That's why we think ya alone. Leave me alone. I will do better. You know, eventually, hopefully doctors will have less hubris and arrogance and learn to work with AI and then we'll see a better outcome. Maybe. But we'll find out. Yeah.
- [28:57]
A
I personally prefer my doctors embrace it right now.
- [28:59]
C
Yeah.
- [29:00]
A
Even my Dentist uses it and I love it.
- [29:02]
C
It's great. You know, we use it all day long.
- [29:04]
A
Yeah. For scans and all that.
- [29:06]
C
For scans and for everything helping us. We like sort of, we have our interpretation, then we'll throw it in and see what it has to say. And then it's sometimes totally accurate and we. Or says something we'd even think about. And other times it's like, no, it's not quite how it works here clinically. And then we can massage it. So it's a two way street.
- [29:23]
A
Nice.
- [29:23]
C
Yeah, I love it.
- [29:24]
A
Well, what's next for you guys? Anything planned for rest of this year? You're probably off. But what about next year or going.
- [29:30]
B
To Mexico in a couple of weeks for Christmas? Surfing trip.
- [29:33]
A
Yeah, that'll be fun.
- [29:35]
C
Yeah, we got a retreat we're hosting in late April down at the Modern Elder Academy, so that'll be fun.
- [29:41]
B
Longevity.
- [29:42]
C
Longevity.
- [29:43]
A
We'll link that in the video. Yeah, I've always wanted to go to one of those, so maybe I'll make an appearance.
- [29:48]
C
Yeah, let's love it. Let me have you. Come on down.
- [29:50]
A
Yeah, beautiful spot.
- [29:51]
B
Too early to learn about longevity.
- [29:53]
A
Yeah, I'm trying to reverse my biological age as I say.
- [29:57]
C
That's right.
- [29:57]
A
22.
- [29:59]
C
Excellent.
- [29:59]
A
Not bad, right?
- [30:00]
C
We want to keep you at that marker right there.
- [30:02]
A
You don't want to get too younger than me. He's 21, I think.
- [30:05]
C
Yeah, yeah, we'll keep you at. At 22 and then that's where you.
- [30:10]
A
Want that be great. Yeah. Lifespan versus health. Health span, Right?
- [30:13]
C
That's right.
- [30:13]
A
Difference. All right, cool. Well, thanks for coming on, guys. That was fun.
- [30:16]
C
Yeah. Good day.
- [30:17]
A
Yeah. We'll link their websites and social medias below. Check my V. Peace.
- [30:20]
D
I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.