← Digital Social Hour
Digital Social Hour
Enemy Charlie Finally Tells Her Side: The Debate That Broke Andrew Wilson | DSH #1660
00:49:23
Loading summary
Transcript353 lines
- [00:00]
A
I was raised very religious, non denominational Protestant, but going to church like twice a week. And while I had a very negative experience with my church, the one thing that did hit home was Jesus wants you to love your neighbor, to not judge, and to have mercy and grace. And so when he goes around calling himself a staunch Christian, it makes me sad because I know so many Christians who I feel follow Jesus teachings and are loving and forgiving no matter what their opinions are and have a lot of grace for people. If his goal is to convert people to orthodox Christianity, I don't know if he's really accomplished that in any meaningful way because he might have gained. Drawn some angry young men to the faith. But I think once they realize they can't use it to abuse the people around them, they'll abandon it very quickly.
- [00:53]
B
Okay, guys, at Spotify Studios in Los Angeles here with someone you've probably been seeing recently, we got Enemy Charlie here coming off a really viral debate with Andrew Wilson. Thanks for coming.
- [01:03]
A
Yeah, thank you for having me.
- [01:05]
B
Did you expect this virality?
- [01:07]
A
No.
- [01:09]
Not, not at all. I really thought frankly this was going to get washed away.
- [01:17]
And not. Not be anything for me. So I'm. I'm very shocked.
- [01:20]
B
Yeah. Because you've debated him a few times before this one, right?
- [01:24]
A
Yeah. And nothing really came of those debates other than his followers harassing me. So I was like, yeah, this will probably be another one of those.
- [01:33]
B
Yes.
- [01:34]
A
Yeah.
- [01:34]
B
Yeah. Because I saw you debated him virtually once and then on whatever prior to this one, right?
- [01:40]
A
No, I did two online debates with him on Sarah the Raging Tomatoes platform and then whatever, reached out to me and asked if I wanted to do a third with him.
- [01:50]
B
Got it. So were the two prior to this one about the same topic or were they different?
- [01:55]
A
They were, they were different. The first one was on Is it Moral to. To Take Land? Which was a very oddly phrased question. And I was asked to come support someone and we didn't really talk much about colonization. We talked about metaethics, which was exhausting.
- [02:16]
B
I don't even know what that is, to be honest.
- [02:18]
A
Just like, you know, like discourse on the, like the nature of morality, its basis, is it objective, relativist, like, things like that.
- [02:29]
B
Okay.
- [02:30]
A
And then the second one was more of a discussion follow up from the debate.
- [02:36]
B
Got it.
- [02:37]
A
Because I had said I felt like he didn't debate with me in good faith and was just trying to own me.
- [02:41]
B
Yeah.
- [02:41]
A
And I didn't get to actually hear his side. And so that's what happened the next time.
- [02:47]
B
So I've heard that now from a few people that have debated him that I didn't feel like it was like that. So I guess what made you want to do it a third time if that's how you felt?
- [02:56]
A
I mean, I almost didn't do it just because I was like, gosh, this feels so pointless because I don't know if he's going to meet me in good faith. But because he was fairly good faith ish the time before, I assumed that it could be an interesting conversation at the very least, where I was hoping to learn more about his worldview and why he feels that feminism is bad for society.
- [03:28]
B
And what did you take away from that third one? I know there's those viral clips and whatnot, but was there anything substantive that you took away?
- [03:35]
A
No. Which was really disappointing. Leading up to the clip, I had asked him. We debated for ages.
- [03:42]
B
Six hours, right?
- [03:43]
A
Yeah. God. I mean, at out like the four hour mark, we were kind of winding down and I said, okay, you know, what could you do? You think you could sell me, you know, a life without feminism like me particularly, like, how would my life be better? He did not do that. Basically all he did was go, well, you say feminism is about freedom, but you liked the, the COVID pandemic lockdown, so therefore you are authoritarian. And I was like, okay, well that.
- [04:13]
That'S, you know, kind of a, the fallacious argument and also was not an answer to the question. And I felt like he was mostly trying to clip farm in that moment.
- [04:23]
B
You know, I did see that part of it. I, I was trying to connect the dots there on that analogy he was making. You know what I mean?
- [04:29]
A
Yeah, I also was too, because I, I felt like, you know, however you felt about the COVID pandemic, it was, those were temporary measures.
- [04:41]
At the very most, like a year and a half, and they weren't even as strict as many other countries. And it was a, it was a health crisis.
- [04:49]
B
And there was also a lot we didn't know at the time. So I felt like I reacted similar to how you did at first. And then once more information was learned, you know, I went out and about.
- [04:58]
A
Yeah, same. That's, that's what I did. I was, you know, worried at first like everyone else, because what's going on? And then I went, oh, okay, this is what we can do. While, you know, doctors and scientists are working to make sure, you know, hospitals aren't overwhelmed.
- [05:12]
B
Yeah. How did you feel about Rachel Willison calling in and joining? Was that pre discussed or anything?
- [05:18]
A
No, that was kind of shocking and strange to me. So she had been putting in super chats the whole night before, then kind of saying nasty things about me, making fun of me. But I did not expect her to call in.
- [05:42]
Mostly what I, what I felt like was.
- [05:47]
I feel that shame was the motivator for her there. I feel like she was embarrassed and she spent a lot of time justifying herself and her actions, which I didn't even judge her for.
- [06:02]
Because, I mean, Wilson never let me finish my point, but my whole point was that, you know, I do not think it's immoral for a woman to have children with three different men. I think that that's fine. But, you know, in a world without feminism, a society without feminism, women such as Rachel would face far more judgment than they already do. She would not have had access to no fault divorce, child support, you know, there wouldn't be the violence against women act, things like that. And never got to make that point. So just to be clear, I don't think it's immoral.
- [06:40]
B
Andrew started popping off. I didn't. I still don't know what sniz is.
- [06:43]
A
Coochie.
- [06:45]
B
Okay. That's what everyone in the comments was like. What is that?
- [06:48]
A
I'd never heard that term before. And it was so weird because I. So to clarify something, I'm not a lesbian.
- [06:55]
B
Oh, you're not?
- [06:56]
A
I'm not.
- [06:56]
B
Wait, so why am I bisexual?
- [06:58]
A
I had just brought up during the debate, he had said something about women can't physically handle trade. And I said, well, one of my ex girlfriends was 5:2 and £90 and she became a welder. So he just heard I had an ex girlfriend and I guess held onto that for four hours.
- [07:16]
B
Okay, well, his military argument, I, I could see about how like men have to run for miles with backpacks, you know, and heavy equipment. I could see that argument, but I didn't see the, the trade argument.
- [07:29]
A
Yeah, it was. Well, I was just trying to make the point is that like a lot of these things can be, you know, any physical inequalities can be mitigated through technology. You know, so that was, that was.
- [07:44]
B
I could see that too. Yeah, I could see that. Because war is heading towards that way actually, anyways.
- [07:49]
A
Yeah, very, very technological. And also there's plenty of women in the military that are doing just fine. And also I think that, you know, while front lines is very important, so is, you know, munitions and healthcare and things like that, support roles are equally as important and sometimes just as deadly.
- [08:11]
B
Yeah, it's. It's you're very interesting to me because after the debate, you. You went private on every social media account, right?
- [08:17]
A
Yeah, I privated my Twitter or my ex, I guess, because I know that X is.
- [08:23]
Very right wing and that's where I got most of the harassment before. But I mean, the last time I debated Wilson for two months, every day his followers would spam comments on old, old things that I'd posted.
- [08:37]
B
Wow.
- [08:38]
A
So, yeah, So I kind of limited comments on my Instagram to followers only. Shut down. My ex made sure that my Twitch was follower only because I just didn't want to deal with, like, the harassment, especially on Twitch. I didn't want my mods to have to do extra work, you know, like, they already have to deal with trolls anyway. I make it a million times worse.
- [08:58]
B
It must be annoying because you want to, you know, converse with these opposing views, but if you do, then you get flooded with these comments.
- [09:05]
A
Well, I mean, precisely. And that's kind of. I mean, that's why I wanted to, you know, go on the podcast is that I do have an interest in good faith discourse. I have a, I don't know, a great need to understand.
- [09:22]
People with, with different views, which is. I mean, frankly, after the first debate I had with Wilson, I did a ton of research on metaethics because I was trying to understand why he took such an issue with my stance.
- [09:34]
B
Yeah.
- [09:35]
A
And it does suck that when you have a dialogue with these people, what they're, you know, what. What the audiences do is attack you.
- [09:43]
B
Yeah, that's not cool. I'm not a fan of that. Like, as someone that moderates debates, I would never want my opponent's fans to attack the other ones.
- [09:50]
A
Yeah. And I mean, there's only so much you can do to control an audience, you know, But I don't know if Wilson's style of debate is necessarily conducive to that because he tends to be more bloodsports and personal, which is, I mean, frankly, why his reaction was so shocking to me.
- [10:12]
B
Yeah, I've never seen that side of him. I think that's why everyone was shocked too, because they've seen him debate hundreds of people and for him to react that way, I don't think it's been seen before.
- [10:20]
A
I don't, and I don't know, I don't think it was necessarily anything about me because people have brought up, you know, his, you know, kind of the schism between what he preaches, which is, you know, kind of looking down on women who have, have any sort of Past, you know, making digs at single mothers, women who do sex work, women who, you know, have premarital sex, and the fact that he is married to a woman who has a past like the women that he mocks. I did not expect him to freak out. I thought he would have had an answer. He did not.
- [11:03]
B
I wonder if it was just an accumulation of all the past digs people were giving him for that same issue. Because you're right, people have attach him for that in the past, and it maybe just got to him that day.
- [11:13]
A
Maybe. I also think.
- [11:16]
I, I. Gosh, I don't. I think he's also far more used to having, especially on that podcast. I think he maybe wasn't mentally prepared for someone who wasn't going to cry or rage, quit.
- [11:34]
So I think he just had his guard down in a really significant way.
- [11:37]
B
You're right. Usually on those whatever shows, he's kind of, you know, dominating in a sense of just these girls can't keep up with the conversation. Some of them, you know.
- [11:46]
A
Yeah, very. He's usually very in control of the situation, which is, again, I think, why so many people were so shook by what happened. Yeah.
- [11:56]
Yeah. It's crazy.
- [11:57]
B
Yeah. Cause he was debating feminist that whole week and you just happened to be the one where it popped off.
- [12:02]
A
Yeah, it was.
- [12:05]
It was really freaky, to be honest.
- [12:07]
B
Yeah, you looked very shocked.
- [12:10]
A
Yeah, I just.
- [12:11]
B
You were almost speechless the way I looked.
- [12:13]
A
Well, I just didn't expect him to.
- [12:17]
I mean, the sniz stuff, I was like, what?
- [12:19]
B
I was so confused when he said that.
- [12:21]
A
And also the slurs.
- [12:24]
Really took me by surprise. And I think just kind of the nastiness of it, because I know some people look at, like, me making the comment about his wife as a low blow, but, you know, there's a number of reasons why I don't think it was. She's a political commentator and, you know, the nuclear family and being very hypercritical of women's, you know, intimate past is a part of his platform.
- [12:57]
And also she was, you know, posting super chats the whole night. And so I was trying to give him a, you know, a real genuine answer on why feminism benefits him personally. Benefits him and his wife.
- [13:10]
Oh, gosh, where were we going with this?
- [13:12]
B
His wife, Rachel, why you made the comment.
- [13:14]
A
Oh, yeah. And I just.
- [13:18]
I just assumed that he would be ready. But I went back and I looked at some of his prior interviews on the whatever podcast, and it was a little bit.
- [13:34]
It took a couple of weeks for it to sink in. But I really got the sense that, like, it kind of disturbed me in a way, because I realized that a lot of what he does on that podcast is go out of his way to make women cry and make them, like, get emotional and leave, really.
- [13:50]
B
And so I've seen him do it once, but has that happened multiple times?
- [13:54]
A
Yeah, based on the things that I've seen, is that he will go pretty low.
- [13:59]
B
I've seen him debate that one feminist, and I think she left, if that's the one you're referencing.
- [14:04]
A
Yeah. And there was another woman that he was really angry at her for, I guess, some relationship that she'd had, and she started crying and he was mocking her.
- [14:16]
And I guess what really bothered me was that I just got the sense that he didn't really see me like a person, so to speak, is I. You know, when he started clip farming before then when he was setting it up to call me stupid, and I just kind of realized, oh, I'm just content for him and I'm, you know, someone to make fun of. And that's what he wants. He wants my humiliation, he wants my pain, and it doesn't bother him. And I think when he started calling me slurs, that really hit home because I was like, oh, he. He wants me to hurt right now.
- [14:57]
B
Like, damn.
- [14:58]
A
Wow. Damn, that's freaky. And it's not like I've been very sheltered. I haven't. You know, I've met people that are not good. I've been out for a very long time, and people have not been good to me. But I always assumed that if they got to know me, they wouldn't have been so cruel. So I guess to, you know, demonstrate to someone in the flesh that I'm a person just like they are, and then to feel that they are going out of their way to hurt me as much as possible for their own benefit is.
- [15:28]
Uncomfortable.
- [15:29]
B
Yeah, that's next level. I mean, we just met, but you seem very chill, laid back to me. You don't seem combative at all. So for you to draw that out of him, I'm, like, trying to figure this out myself. There must have been something that just.
- [15:40]
A
I don't know, I mean, people that. That reviewed the debate, like, people that I trust to be neutral on it, said that I was, like, very.
- [15:49]
Very passive. You know, Like, I was very polite and passive during the debate. Like, I never lashed out at him until, you know, he made the stupid comment. But that wasn't even much of a lashing, frankly.
- [16:01]
B
So maybe it just caught him off guard.
- [16:03]
A
Yeah. And I think he does.
- [16:06]
Potentially have a lot of shame about his wife's past.
- [16:10]
B
Interesting.
- [16:11]
A
And I think he knows that, you know, the. The things that he preaches about women and the way that he's cruel to them is not, you know, conducive to having married a woman who has had children with three different men.
- [16:27]
B
Yeah. Because I know on the red pill, I don't know if he's considered red pill, but a big thing is, like, a woman's past matters a lot. Right. With the body count.
- [16:34]
A
Yes. Yes. And whether or not he's considered red pill, I think is irrelevant because he has been claimed as such. I do believe the vast majority of people, at least, like, I mean, I've had friends and family I haven't spoken to in years reach out to me about this clip. Like, they think that the. Whatever podcast is Andrew's podcast.
- [16:56]
B
Wow.
- [16:56]
A
Because, like, what they see of him, what they've ever seen of him, is him making red pill, talking points.
- [17:03]
About women and being like, you are basically.
- [17:08]
You know, damaged for life, unlovable because of, you know, anything that you've done and even trying to redeem yourself. Like, gosh, like, he. He was really hard on. I think her name is Nala Ray.
- [17:20]
B
Yeah.
- [17:20]
A
But she's a sex worker who stopped doing sex work and converted to Christianity. And he was hard on her and was, you know, talking about how if his. If his child did sex work, he would, you know, disown them.
- [17:34]
B
Wow.
- [17:35]
A
Even if they became a Christian again, just things like that. That was just like. Oh, wow. Like cruel for cruelty's sake, in my opinion.
- [17:46]
B
Dang. I knew he was hard on her. I didn't know he said that. That's pretty nuts.
- [17:49]
A
Yeah, it was. It was brutal.
- [17:52]
B
Yeah. Because he's. He's pretty hardcore Christian. I moderated a debate with him right before yours, actually, was.
- [17:58]
A
That was Coach Greg.
- [17:59]
B
Yeah.
- [18:00]
A
I was told about that the next day.
- [18:02]
B
Oh, you were Coach Greg.
- [18:03]
A
That Coach Greg had exposed the three baby daddies thing.
- [18:07]
B
Later, he actually. Oh, later. Yeah, later he did. But on the debate, he didn't know about it, so he didn't bring it up live. But it was hard to moderate. I thought Brian did a pretty good job moderating yours because I could not control either of my attendees or whatever.
- [18:24]
A
Oh, wow.
- [18:24]
B
My debate opponents.
- [18:25]
A
Yeah. I think Brian did a pretty good job. But after the outburst, he sided with him.
- [18:32]
B
Right. Well, they're best friends.
- [18:34]
A
Yeah. They're besties. And, you know, they.
- [18:38]
Financially benefit each other a lot. Fine. You know, like they. Yeah, like. Like they help each other a lot, which makes sense. But it was kind of just a. After the outburst, it was just a three on one and Andrew Wilson kind of constantly talking over me, which was very annoying because I. I'm a fairly soft spoken person.
- [18:58]
B
Yeah.
- [18:59]
A
I don't like to yell.
- [19:00]
B
I could tell. I could tell. Would that. You think they'll ever invite you back or do you think you would ever go back on that?
- [19:09]
A
I mean, never with Andrew Wilson. And it's not because I'm afraid of him, but I think I was really.
- [19:22]
Just taken aback by how much control he. He does not have over his emotions.
- [19:31]
It seems like he and his wife both really struggle to contain themselves and especially because he's a, you know, chronic drinker and smoker. Like, he was drinking the whole time that we were debating.
- [19:43]
B
Oh, so that might have been why he.
- [19:45]
A
I also think so as well, potentially because he kept having to step out for cigarettes and Brian didn't have hard enough alcohol for him. And I was actually in my brain, I was like, is he having withdrawals right now? Like, is that because he's always smoking and drinking on his show? Like. And I just, I don't really feel like it's.
- [20:07]
First off, I don't think it's fair to debate someone that is. I mean, I don't want to, you know, make false claims, but to my eyes, seems to be struggling with addiction and also someone that's such a loose cannon.
- [20:22]
And I. It just seems. I don't know.
- [20:27]
B
Shout out to today's sponsor, Quince. As the weather cools, I'm swapping in the pieces that actually gets the job done, that are warm, durable, and built to last. Quince delivers every time with wardrobe staples that'll carry you through the season. They have fall staples that you'll actually want to wear, like the 100% Mongolian cashmere for just $60. They also got classic fit denim and real leather and wool outerwear that looks sharp and holds up. By partnering directly with ethical factories and top artisans, Quince cuts out the middleman to deliver premium quality at half the cost of similar brands. They've really become a go to across the board. You guys know how I love linen and how I've talked about it on previous episodes. I picked up some linen pants and they feel incredible. The quality is definitely noticeable compared to other brands. Layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they look. Go to quince.comdsh for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. They're also available in Canada, too.
- [21:33]
A
Wow.
- [21:35]
B
No, I could feel that, like, if I'm debating someone, I wouldn't really want them to be drunk, to be honest.
- [21:40]
A
Yeah, drunk or having withdrawals and then freaking out. Like, I just. I would prefer to debate with people that are in control of themselves.
- [21:50]
Which is. I mean, one of the craziest things about this is that I don't think this clip went viral because of me or anything I did. It was Andrew's reaction. Like, he really had an opportunity there to essentially say, you know, as a Christian, I believe in grace and forgiveness. Like, he had a moment to own me there and make me look like a. Like a terrible person. He didn't. He did not at all.
- [22:21]
B
I also think the reaction is important, like how if you're gonna double down on that take or if you're gonna like, kind of apologize or say what you were thinking in that moment, you know, So I think him reacting the way he did could have played a role into how viral it's going.
- [22:37]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Because he. He has just doubled down. My friends sent me some tweets that, that Andrew and Rachel Wilson have made about me. And it's all. It's a little gnarly. It's attacking, you know, Andrew found out later that I am detransitioned. So for about 10 years, I did identify as. As a man, as in to explain I XX chromosomes, born with uterus and all that. But I wanted to transition to male. Yeah, I was on testosterone for a little bit. He found that out later. And so he was making tweets, calling me like an ftm twd, you know, T R A N N. Got it. Yeah. And then just saying crazy things about me. And also what bothered me was, you know, kind of making the claim that I said that they should abort their kids.
- [23:35]
B
That one I saw. Could you explain what happened with that?
- [23:38]
A
Yeah. So it got into, mind you, after his outburst, I was like, okay, this is no longer good faith. All right? Like, I'm not, you know, I. I was, I think, fairly polite afterwards, but I was just kind of not interested in like, conceding anything. And so we talked about promiscuity and they brought up abortion and said, do you? I said, you know, I didn't make it clear at the time, but what I was trying to say is that if she had had three abortions, rather, you know, having children with three different men, optically, that would make her look less promiscuous. Because you can conceal an abortion. You cannot Conceal children.
- [24:32]
That are, you know, you are raising and taking care of.
- [24:36]
And then they asked if. They asked me if she. If she should have. And I said, well, maybe because, I mean, to be fair, she had just got done telling me that she was abused by her husband. And I was like, in my head, I mean, yeah, I think probably an abortion might be preferable to, you know, having a child with, if. If she's to be believed, an incredibly abusive, dangerous man.
- [25:04]
B
Half her tongue got pulled out. I saw that.
- [25:06]
A
Yeah, that's. That's the claim that she made. I've heard people say that those aren't substantiated. But I also don't like to not believe victims. So I think, you know, I'll roll with what she says. And my point was not that I think she should have aborted her kids, but that, my goodness, that's what I would have done. And that's what I said is I, I. In your shoes, I would have done that. Because I do think it's the idea of tying oneself to two not good men for your entire life is. Seems not great.
- [25:41]
B
Yeah, he took a lot of offense to that. I saw that clip.
- [25:44]
A
Yeah. Which was. I almost, in a way, I don't know if he actually found it offensive because I did a little bit more looking into Wilson after this, and he's said some pretty heinous stuff about.
- [26:00]
You know, just, like, the value of human life. I think, like, he.
- [26:08]
Like, mocked Palestinian Christians, like, reaching out to him to see if they would, you know, promote donations. And he's like, I don't care if you're not American. And so I'm like, do you actively care? Plus, I mean, even if I had said, you should have aborted your kids, which I didn't, that's like Call of Duty level insults. That's like, when someone says, your mom should have aborted you. It's like, well, she didn't. And I'm here. You know, like, his children are. They were born. Their kids are born. Can't. Can't take that away.
- [26:42]
B
Wow. So it sounds like you two aren't gonna make up.
- [26:48]
A
I don't. I don't think so. Because I do think that, you know, looking into him after this and the way that he treated me and the way that he acts, I. I just feel like he's a. He's not a good person.
- [27:06]
B
Wow.
- [27:06]
A
And I think that, you know, what he does.
- [27:12]
With his life, the way that he makes his money, is a lot of just spreading misery and hate. Whatever he says about what he does on his own channel is one thing, but he's most well known for his whatever podcast debates. And.
- [27:28]
Those are essentially just about, you know, making women feel bad about themselves and then in a really big way, convincing young men that every woman they know probably has had, you know, slept with a hundred men. They all have onlyfans. They've all had 10 million abortions. Like, it's just not healthy. And I think it is, like, making gender relations worse. So for his role in that also, the way that he just, like, seems to love hurting people, getting personal, I can't condone it.
- [28:06]
B
Yeah. Do you think the red pill movement, whether he's part of it or not, just like the ideology of it has done more damage to men overall?
- [28:17]
A
I think so, yeah. Because I would say while it's, you know, like it attacks women all the time, I think that ultimately, at the end of the day, what happens is that men begin to distance themselves from women. They cut themselves off from friendships, potential relationships. I think it makes them lonelier, angrier, more, you know, mistrustful. And I just don't.
- [28:45]
I don't like it. I don't think it's good. And I. I think, frankly, that's why, kind of, I would say I think the red pill is on its way out.
- [28:53]
B
I would say statistically, it's lost some movement for sure, because I think the peak was probably the pandemic for it. They were getting a lot of views on that sort of content. I don't see it as much as I used to.
- [29:04]
A
No, I don't. I don't either. And I think it's because a lot of the participants have been exposed as. As grifters, such as, you know, I would say Andrew and Rachel Wilson. You know, they don't practice what they preach.
- [29:18]
And I think that that's a huge part of it. And it also doesn't work. You know, like, red pill ideology does not increase someone's happiness. Like, it just, again, like I said, makes people miserable and lonely and.
- [29:36]
B
Yeah, only time will tell, I guess the stats will come out over time on how it's affected society. Right. But it's looking pretty, pretty bad, I'd say, at the moment.
- [29:46]
A
Yeah, I mean, people in my generation, Gen Z, presumably yours as well.
- [29:52]
B
I'm 28, so whatever. That I might be a millennial.
- [29:54]
A
I'm also 28. I don't know if we're Gen Z or millennials either.
- [29:58]
B
Every site says a different thing, but whatever. I know what you mean.
- [30:00]
A
You know, Zillennials.
- [30:04]
It'S like, you know, people our age are having less intimate relations than ever than preceding generations. They're lonelier. They're like, there's a greater schism in political ideology between men and women.
- [30:22]
And I just. I hate it. And the worst part is, is that I don't think these people believe it at all. They're just making money off these people, you know?
- [30:33]
B
Yeah. I think that goes for many topics when you are a social media content creator, because inherently you're. You're relying on views to get money. Right. So you're going to say a bunch of crazy stuff because that gets views and.
- [30:46]
A
Yeah, it does. And that's something that I hate because, I mean, you really have to, I guess, work that out in your. In yourself. Like, do I compromise my ethics to make more money? Do I participate in that sort of media circus or, you know, do I stay true to who I am and my beliefs and, and not make as much money? Maybe even fail?
- [31:13]
B
Yeah. It's a battle everyone's got to deal with in our space. I've interviewed almost 2,000 people now, so I get to see what they're like on and off camera. And I would say majority of them are putting on a bit of a Persona. 80%.
- [31:26]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And it's.
- [31:29]
Very scary and strange.
- [31:31]
B
It's scary. Yeah. I'm the same on it. I try to be the same on and off camera. I might amplify it a little bit for the podcast, but nothing crazy. But I had some, some wealth going into this, so I don't have to rely on platforms to get money. Like, I just do this because it's fun and money is more of a byproduct.
- [31:47]
A
Yeah.
- [31:47]
B
You know what I mean?
- [31:48]
A
I mean, that's the best way to do it because it keeps you honest.
- [31:51]
B
Yeah. So I can recognize that. But I also recognize people gotta make a living too. So it's.
- [31:56]
A
Right. Yeah, it's a. You know, and you would think that content creators, to bring it back to Wilson again, would have a bit more empathy for women who end up doing sex work in that way. Because you got to do what you got to do to survive.
- [32:14]
Evidently.
- [32:15]
B
Yeah. I guess it goes against his Christian beliefs, you know, that's where he draws a line.
- [32:20]
A
Yeah. And I. So I was raised very religious, non denominational Protestant, but going to church like twice a week. And while I had a very negative experience with my church, the one thing that did hit home was.
- [32:35]
Jesus wants you to love your neighbor, to not judge, and to have mercy and grace. And so when he goes around calling himself a staunch Christian, it makes me sad because I know so many Christians who I feel follow Jesus teachings and are loving and forgiving, you know, no matter what their opinions are, and have a lot of grace for people, and he does. Not.
- [33:07]
At all. And I don't think he really does much to. I mean, if. If his goal is to convert people to orthodox Christianity, I. I don't know if he's really accomplished that in any meaningful way, because he might have gained, you know, drawn some angry young men to the face. But I think once they realize they can't, you know, use it to abuse the people around them, they'll abandon it very quickly.
- [33:37]
B
Yeah. Interesting take. So. So you believe you can balance the two. You can still have a religious background and do sex work or that type of content?
- [33:45]
A
I mean, I think that that would have to be up to each individual. But I think that, you know, if you are someone who is religious and you have negative feelings about sex work and you feel like it goes against God, I. I would assume that you would do your best to be kind to sex workers, you know?
- [34:08]
B
Yeah.
- [34:08]
A
The way Jesus had grace for many people who had. Who had sinned.
- [34:14]
And you would want to be gentle and kind and supportive.
- [34:18]
And encourage them kindly to. To leave that lifestyle. I personally don't take issue with sex work as long as someone is doing it of their own volition and is safe. Whatever.
- [34:32]
B
Yeah, I don't have an issue with it. I've had plenty of them on the show. Some of them are even Christian.
- [34:37]
A
Yeah.
- [34:38]
B
So it doesn't affect me, you know. Yeah, I'm gonna let them do what they do. But I'm all about accountability at the same time. Like, people are addicted to porn or whatever. And yeah, you know, I've dealt with that. But you got to have some accountability too.
- [34:54]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's just. I. We could not predict evolution, could not predict the sheer amount of dopamine sent our way that are. And not just porn, but, my goodness, social media. Social media in general. And I think that, you know, that's why we're seeing porn addiction become such an issue. We've always had pornographic material of some kind, but never this accessible access to it. Yes. So that people become, like, numb to it. It's crazy. And yeah, I do think we have to find some way to handle that, but I don't think punishing sex workers is the way to go about it.
- [35:36]
B
Yeah. I feel like even if they federally born are federally banned porn People are gonna find a workaround.
- [35:43]
A
Oh, yeah, of course. I mean, gosh, like, you know, I was, I grew up on the Internet when it was the wild, wild West, Pirate Bay area. Right.
- [35:52]
B
Those are the days. Yeah.
- [35:53]
A
You could find crazy stuff if you looked for it and knew how to.
- [35:56]
B
So, yeah, it's not that hard. And we're all so tech savvy, our generation that because it's already banned in some states, if you go on.
- [36:03]
A
But they just get VPNs.
- [36:04]
B
Yeah, VPN or different site. It's banning stuff. Seems to never really work. You know, I know Andrew and some other people want an abortion ban, but I don't think that would work either.
- [36:16]
A
No, I, I don't. And I don't think it would work at all. And we're seeing that in states where abortion has been banned. While the, you know, the rates of abortion in those states go down, in surrounding states they go up. Abortion bans also don't really do anything to increase the population.
- [36:37]
So it's kind of useless. I think that abortion bans would just.
- [36:45]
I don't know, would just create a very profitable illegal drug trademark.
- [36:50]
B
Yeah. People are still going to do them, right?
- [36:51]
A
Oh, yeah, of course.
- [36:52]
B
It'd be like banning guns. People are still going to buy guns. They're still going to have the war on Drugs made the drug problem worse. Way worse.
- [36:59]
A
Absolutely.
- [37:00]
B
So how would that work for anything?
- [37:02]
A
It, yeah, it, it would. Not at all. I also just think I. It can be so hard sometimes to talk to people who have such a strong.
- [37:16]
Moral distaste for abortion because I just view it as a very.
- [37:24]
I guess, in a very medical, practical way.
- [37:28]
And also knowing the history of abortion where for, you know, many periods throughout history, it was like, I mean, Augustine of Hippo, who's a very, very early Christian thinker, was like, it's fine until it kicks, then, then it's alive.
- [37:44]
B
Third trimester.
- [37:46]
A
Yeah, like, things like that. So to have it be such an issue now is so strange to me.
- [37:53]
B
Yeah, it's. I still remember debates as a kid, seeing them on the news about abortion. I can't believe 10 years later it's still this talked about. It's nuts.
- [38:00]
A
It's crazy. And also, I mean, I hadn't thought about this until a couple years ago, but if I was able to get someone pregnant, I would want abortion to be legal. I mean, the idea of being, you know, without any control over it, like someone having my child. Terrifying, right? Terrifying before I'm ready to take responsibility. So I don't Understand the wave of young men that are so against abortion. Because isn't it great that you don't have to be a father unwillingly?
- [38:32]
B
I mean, most people cannot afford a kid.
- [38:35]
A
No.
- [38:36]
B
Just having a kid. The average pregnancy is $18,000 to give birth right now.
- [38:40]
A
God damn.
- [38:40]
B
And that's just the start. Then you got a child care. Yeah.
- [38:43]
A
Health care costs, school costs. I mean, and it's just going up and up and up. And so I don't. This is just going to make poor people poorer.
- [38:54]
B
Yeah. I didn't know young men were. I'd love to see the stats on that. I thought it'd be mainly women opposing it.
- [39:00]
A
Opposing abortion.
- [39:02]
B
Yeah.
- [39:03]
A
I do think. I'm not sure what the stats are on, like, the gender divide. I do think that there's a number of, like, very religious women that oppose abortion.
- [39:16]
B
That makes sense. Yeah.
- [39:17]
A
Yeah. And I also think that there's definitely a lot of, like, reactionaries online who are kind of trying to profit off of.
- [39:24]
B
Yeah.
- [39:24]
A
These sorts of things.
- [39:27]
And will, you know, promote themselves as, oh, I'm a woman who is pro life. I'm not like those hussies.
- [39:35]
Things like that.
- [39:36]
B
Yeah. Have you thought about what's next? I mean, going viral. I'm sure you're getting tons of offers to go on other debates and podcasts and all that.
- [39:44]
A
I've been. I've gotten a couple of offers with things like that.
- [39:50]
Fresh. A friend suggested I should call Fresh and fit.
- [39:56]
With her, and I was like, oh, gosh.
- [40:02]
You know, because on one hand, I do find interacting with people with those worldviews, if they're incapable of treating me like a person to be distasteful, you know.
- [40:15]
But if they can be polite to me outside of that and won't scream at me and have to drink the whole time. Yeah, I think I could. I could have a conversation.
- [40:24]
B
So Myron and Fresh don't drink. I know Myron doesn't. Fresh. I don't think he drinks on set. Fresh is pretty respectful on camera. Myron does play a bit of a role. You know, he's the one that you see always yelling at girls.
- [40:36]
A
I mean, I can banter, you know.
- [40:38]
B
Yeah. I think if you do go on there, it shouldn't be you and eight girls, though. No, you know what I mean? Like their typical setup. I think it should just be you and your friend and Myron and Fresh.
- [40:47]
A
Yeah, I mean, I. I think that that would be. I think that that would be interesting. I'd want to go with. I think you've Interviewed her before Kyla. Not so erudite.
- [40:56]
B
That'd be a good episode. You two against them too.
- [40:58]
A
Yeah, she's. She's sharp.
- [41:00]
B
Yeah. You two could hold your own. I think I'll try to set that up.
- [41:03]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [41:03]
B
Myron's been on my show like six times. He's actually really nice off camera.
- [41:08]
A
I believe it because most people, like, I've. At TwitchCon this past October, I met a number of people that I've done debates with who have wildly different political beliefs than me. I mean, like, polar opposite of the spectrum and.
- [41:25]
Like my buddy Admiral Gibbs in Jebtan. We. We drank whiskey together and smoked cigars. You know, like, look at you.
- [41:31]
B
I know.
- [41:32]
A
It was awesome.
- [41:33]
B
I love it.
- [41:34]
A
Like, we were. We got along so well and it was just. They didn't have any issue with, you know, me being queer or my past gender stuff. We hung out with my. My best friend Dremos, who's a black man, and they were weird, like, so I guess that's why Andrew was so shocking is I'm so used to, like, getting along with. Yeah. Even if we have different political beliefs, we can respect each other, treat each other like people.
- [42:02]
B
Yeah. Wow. That's surprising because he told me he does hours of research before he debates. He didn't know about your past going into that debate.
- [42:08]
A
He knew nothing about me. And I think he was honestly. So he was going to do a. He did his rematch with Naima.
- [42:15]
B
Yeah.
- [42:16]
A
And I, again, I really feel like, because I was so passive during our first two debates, I feel like he really went into this. Like, this is going to be easy.
- [42:24]
B
Right.
- [42:25]
A
Like, nothing, nothing about this will be difficult.
- [42:29]
And so I just don't think he bothered to put in the. The research. He also researched. He debated or had a discussion with Amaranth.
- [42:39]
B
Oh, yeah. Right before you saw that.
- [42:40]
A
So I think like, two very, like, famous, you know, female figures online. I think he concentrated on them and then I kind of accidentally.
- [42:51]
Blew his whole shit up.
- [42:52]
B
Yeah. You came out of nowhere and just. He probably thought it'd be a layup.
- [42:56]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Which is, again, so weird to me. So weird. I didn't even mean for it to be an alt. I didn't even mean to alt on him. I just thought he would. I thought he'd get a little pissy.
- [43:09]
B
Yeah.
- [43:09]
A
And I thought we'd, you know, argue about it a bit, but I just. I could not have anticipated that reaction.
- [43:17]
But, God, I'm. I guess I'm glad it. It did happen because I didn't get, you know, harassed like crazy. A little bit of harassment, of course, but.
- [43:27]
B
Oh, that's good. So it wasn't as bad of a backlash as previous debates.
- [43:31]
A
It was crazy. Like, for once, I was like, oh, my God, people on the Internet are on my side and they like me. This is insane. I've never experienced this before.
- [43:40]
B
Which, by the way, to pull that off on someone who had kind of home field advantage because he's been on the. Whatever. A lot. Pretty hard to do.
- [43:47]
A
Yeah.
- [43:48]
B
So well done.
- [43:49]
A
I don't. Well, I. And this is. This is where I'm like, God, I. I feel like I'm going to be very disappointing in the future because I only saw that in a. In a Twitter thread when I think his wife or he was arguing with someone online. And I saw the. The three baby daddies thing, and I was like, oh, that's interesting. It's not like I do research into the people I'm debating.
- [44:12]
B
Yeah. Because you usually don't go after the personal. You're kind of staying.
- [44:15]
A
No, I like to stay on the. On the point because I feel like that's what you're supposed to do in an intellectual debate. It's not about, you know, owning your opponent. But Andrew does get personal. Like, I've watched a lot of his debates where his opening will be like, you tweeted this and said this, and you've dated a trans person, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I can't remember the dude he did that to, but it was just like, oh, my God.
- [44:39]
B
Like, yeah. He throws in those little personal jabs.
- [44:41]
A
Yeah. Which is, again, so just part of.
- [44:45]
B
Me wonders if that's strategic to invoke emotion in the opponent. So it makes him look better, too. Cause he knows, like, objectively, he's pretty good at debating.
- [44:52]
A
You know, he is. He's a good. He is. He's like. I do feel that his arguments are unsound, but rhetorically, he's very clever, and he is good at upsetting his opponents.
- [45:04]
B
Right.
- [45:05]
A
So crazy.
- [45:05]
B
Part of me wonders if that's like a big brain, high IQ strategy, you know, to get your opponent upset.
- [45:10]
A
Yeah. Is to, you know, bring up their past.
- [45:14]
Mock them a little bit, make kind of crazy accusations, and he did not do that about me.
- [45:20]
B
That wasn't working on you, right?
- [45:22]
A
No, because, I mean, again, like I said, I've been out since I was 14. I have been called every slur in the book. I have had men bigger and scarier than Andrew Wilson. Like, be like, oh, if you think you're a man. So I can hit you. Right. And have to be pulled back by people. Like, that's. That's not gonna hurt my feelings. Like, I've also, you know, I grew up on the Internet and I was a World of Warcraft player.
- [45:47]
B
I'll toughen you up. Yeah.
- [45:49]
A
Yeah. Like, I've. I'm. I'm very numb to it. I'm like, okay.
- [45:54]
B
The Internet trained me because I'm a PC gamer too. It really trained me to have thick skin in.
- [45:59]
A
Right. Because you have to. Because people will just say the craziest things about you.
- [46:03]
B
Yeah. I played runescape, Maple Story. All the. My brothers were addicted to World of Warcraft. I was a little too. So you were playing young then?
- [46:11]
A
I. Well, my older brothers started playing it.
- [46:13]
B
Okay.
- [46:13]
A
And so I. I got on it as well. I didn't really know how to play, so what I would do is I would role play with all of the NPCs and use the walk button. It was very ridiculous.
- [46:25]
B
Yeah. Because that game's complicated.
- [46:27]
A
It is, yeah.
- [46:28]
B
There's a lot you could do in that game. That's why I didn't get into it. It was too hard for me.
- [46:32]
A
No, it was. I mean, I never. Like when I was a kid, I didn't reach, like, level cap for a very long time.
- [46:37]
B
Okay.
- [46:37]
A
I was. I think it was only when I was 14 till I reached level cap. Just because, like the PvP stuff and the rating stuff was too complicated.
- [46:46]
B
Yeah.
- [46:46]
A
I just wanted to pretend that I was a wizard.
- [46:48]
B
That makes sense. Still play anything these days. Are you done gaming?
- [46:52]
A
I. So I think that when I first started streaming on Twitch, I did a lot of gaming and I think that it kind of, like, wore me out a bit.
- [47:01]
B
Yeah.
- [47:02]
A
But what'll happen is I'll get really addicted to a game and I'll go months where I treat that game like a job. You know, like eight hour shifts on that game.
- [47:10]
B
That's where I'm at right now.
- [47:11]
A
What are you. What are you playing?
- [47:12]
B
Katan.
- [47:13]
A
Oh, is that the. That's the rhythm game.
- [47:16]
B
No, no, it's a strategic game. It's like chess. Before Katana was chess, then it was Clash Royale, then it was Brawl Stars. Have you heard of that one?
- [47:26]
A
I haven't.
- [47:26]
B
These are all mobile games. Yeah. Right now I play a little Fortnite, but that's just more to de. Stress.
- [47:32]
A
Yeah. I. I feel that I've been. Right now I've been playing Peak.
- [47:35]
B
I haven't heard.
- [47:37]
A
Climb a mountain with friends, like little boy scouts.
- [47:41]
B
I think I might have seen clips.
- [47:42]
A
It's really fun. But that's cool. Catan is a board game as well.
- [47:46]
B
Yeah.
- [47:46]
A
So you like strategy games?
- [47:47]
B
I love strategy.
- [47:48]
A
Nice.
- [47:48]
B
So if I'm playing games, I want it to be pretty skill based and not too much luck because I'm a sore loser.
- [47:55]
A
I feel that.
- [47:57]
B
So when I lose to someone, I want it to be like, okay, he's better than me. When I lose to someone and they get lucky, shit pisses me off so bad.
- [48:04]
A
It is the worst in the world. So I take it you never really got into like the Overwatch, Marvel Rivals, League of Legends.
- [48:10]
B
I tried Marvel Rivals for a bit and League but I would get too mad. It's my teammates would just blow the game and I would rage, quit.
- [48:19]
A
So you have to rely on other people. It's not just you. And so it is luck.
- [48:22]
B
Yeah.
- [48:23]
A
Like God, I hope I get good people today.
- [48:25]
B
Yeah. You need good RNG to have good teammates that know what they're doing.
- [48:28]
A
Yeah.
- [48:28]
B
And I just rather lose skillfully than that.
- [48:31]
A
Right.
- [48:31]
B
You know?
- [48:32]
A
Right. At least losing because of something you did.
- [48:34]
B
Exactly. But this was fun. I hope you do some cool debates in the in the future. I'll be keeping an eye on you. Where can people find you in the meantime? Find your streams and your social media.
- [48:46]
A
I am enemy. Should I look at the camera? Yeah, this one I think I am enemy. Charlie. Everywhere. I stream on Twitch like four times a week. I try to post on Instagram regularly. Ish. I'm on X post a little bit on TikTok and I'm going to try to get into YouTube video essay making just to put my. My emlit to use.
- [49:08]
B
Let's go. Well, thanks. Thanks for your time today.
- [49:11]
A
No, thank you for having me.
- [49:12]
B
Yeah, check her out guys. We'll link the Twitch and YouTube and all that and I'll see you guys next time. I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.