Ex-Scammer Reveals Shocking Fraud Tactics | Matthew Cox DSHH #1311

Summary

Digital Social Hour Episode Summary: "Ex-Scammer Reveals Shocking Fraud Tactics | Matthew Cox DSHH #1311"

Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Matthew Cox
Release Date: April 9, 2025

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1. Introduction

In this gripping episode of Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly welcomes Matthew Cox, an ex-scammer with a notorious history in real estate fraud and synthetic identity schemes. Sean delves deep into Matthew's tumultuous journey from a seasoned fraudster to a convicted inmate and finally to his current life post-incarceration, where he runs a successful podcast.

2. Matthew Cox's Background and Adjusting Post-Prison

Matthew begins by discussing his life after being released from prison. Adjusting to the modern digital era proved challenging for him:

Matthew Cox [01:23]: "I'd never held an iPhone. I'd never been on YouTube. I never. So all the things that you take for granted that you just can know. Imagine having to learn all of that. Like, I had no idea how anything worked. It was. Everything was like magic."

After living in a rooming house for 18 months, Matthew secured a one-bedroom apartment where he launched his podcast—a venture that has since become his full-time occupation. The drastic changes in technology over the 13 years he was incarcerated made reintegration difficult.

3. Initial Scams and Real Estate Fraud Tactics

Matthew provides an in-depth account of his fraudulent activities, primarily focusing on real estate scams. He explains how the absence of advanced surveillance and digital verification during his early scams made it easier to manipulate records and deceive banks.

Matthew Cox [14:07]: "The mortgage scam is probably easier now, really, and safer now than when I was doing it."

He details the intricacies of his schemes, such as creating synthetic identities by exploiting loopholes in the Social Security system and manipulating public records to inflate property values. By leveraging fake W2s, pay stubs, and synthetic IDs, Matthew orchestrated multi-million-dollar frauds across various states.

4. Synthetic Identity Creation and Exploitation

One of Matthew's primary tactics involved creating synthetic identities using the information of unsuspecting individuals, often homeless people. He meticulously built these identities to secure loans and mortgages under false pretenses.

Matthew Cox [24:07]: "Once I got the Social Security card, I'd go online, and I would fill out. I try and apply for Credit, obviously I don't say he's a seven-month-old kid. No, I say he's a 32-year-old man."

Matthew elaborates on the step-by-step process of his scams, from generating fake documentation to exploiting online loan application systems. He emphasizes the vulnerabilities within the banking sector that allowed such frauds to persist.

5. Arrest and Legal Battles

Matthew recounts the series of events that led to his eventual capture. Despite his elaborate schemes and multiple identities, a combination of strategic mistakes and increasing surveillance efforts culminated in his arrest.

Matthew Cox [48:56]: "They came up with a whole investigation. They've already pulled taxes from the IRS."

His narratives include interactions with law enforcement, his realization during a conversation that he was being wired, and the subsequent legal maneuvers that ensued. Despite attempts to mitigate his sentence through various means, including writing fraud courses and cooperating with media outlets, Matthew faced a lengthy prison term.

6. Life Behind Bars and Further Schemes

While incarcerated, Matthew didn't cease his fraudulent activities. He continued to orchestrate scams, leveraging his knowledge and experience to exploit any loophole he could find within the prison system. His relationships with other inmates, some of whom were also involved in significant frauds, further complicated his legal standing.

Matthew Cox [84:35]: "I've had 27 driver's licenses in seven different states. I've had two dozen passports in different people's names issued by the State Department."

7. Sentence Reduction and Final Capture

Matthew describes his relentless efforts to reduce his sentence through legal channels, including filing appeals and cooperating with investigations. However, continued deception and new scams eventually led to his capture once more.

Matthew Cox [53:01]: "They just asked me to do multiple things. They asked me to do like Dateline NBC."

Despite appearing to cooperate, Matthew's continued fraudulent activities and inability to fully retreat from his criminal mindset resulted in the enforcement of his full sentence.

8. Reflections and Current Endeavors

Now serving a significant prison term, Matthew reflects on his past actions and the cascade of consequences that followed. He underscores the complexities of the legal system and the challenges of attempting to reform or redirect one's path after engaging in extensive fraud.

Matthew Cox [97:07]: "I have no reason to be, you know, upselling, man. I want to go home."

Despite his circumstances, Matthew has managed to establish a substantial online presence through his podcast and written works, sharing insights from his experiences.

9. Notable Quotes

• Matthew Cox [01:23]:
  "Imagine having to learn all of that. Like, I had no idea how anything worked. It was. Everything was like magic."

• Matthew Cox [14:07]:
  "The mortgage scam is probably easier now, really, and safer now than when I was doing it."

• Matthew Cox [24:07]:
  "Once I got the Social Security card, I'd go online, and I would fill out. I try and apply for Credit, obviously I don't say he's a seven-month-old kid. No, I say he's a 32-year-old man."

• Matthew Cox [48:56]:
  "They came up with a whole investigation. They've already pulled taxes from the IRS."

• Matthew Cox [97:07]:
  "I have no reason to be, you know, upselling, man. I want to go home."

10. Conclusion

Matthew Cox's candid recounting of his life as a scammer offers invaluable insights into the mechanics of large-scale fraud and the psychological underpinnings of deceptive behaviors. Sean Kelly's incisive questioning unravels the complexities of Matthew's operations, the systemic vulnerabilities he exploited, and the personal toll exacted by his criminal activities. This episode serves as both a cautionary tale and a deep dive into the dark corridors of financial fraud.

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Where to Listen:
You can find this episode on all major podcast platforms under Digital Social Hour or directly on YouTube by searching "Matthew Cox inside True Crime." Follow the links provided in the episode description to access the podcast on your preferred platform.

Stay Connected:
Subscribe to Digital Social Hour on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast app to stay updated with more unfiltered conversations and shocking revelations from controversial figures around the globe.

Transcript

[A]

What about, I've got. I've got original bank statements. What am I supposed to do? How else do I do this? And that's really as simple as it is. So the point is, is that I would get calls from banks every once in a while and say, hey, this is fucked up. This is what's going on. And I sat there and just said, look, I don't know what you want me to tell you, you know, I can, I can give you the money back. Let me just cut you a check. And they go, that's too late for that.

[B]

All right, guys, we got Matthew Cox here today. One of the craziest stories I've ever heard, man. Thanks for coming on today.

[A]

No problem.

[B]

You've been busy podcasting these days, huh?

[A]

Yeah, that's my full time gig.

[B]

Yeah. You made that switch four years ago, you said.

[A]

Yeah, well, I wasn't. It wasn't my full time gig four years ago. It takes, you know, it takes some time. Probably about the last couple years it's been full time. Like we've been paying all my bills. You know what I like to. You start off and it takes a while.

[B]

Was that adjustment really hard when you got out of prison to adjust back to the real world?

[A]

Um, yeah, I lived in someone's spare room. Well, I lived in a rooming house essentially for about 18 months. And then I got a one bedroom. And in the one bedroom, I basically started the podcast. I was about to. It's about. Probably a year out, was it? But yeah, it was definitely, definitely an adjustment. First of all, I'd never been on. Look, I'd never held an iPhone. I'd never been on YouTube. I never. So all the things that you take for granted that you just can know. Imagine having to learn all of that. Like, I had no idea how anything worked. It was. Everything was like magic.

[B]

So, yeah, you got out of there. It was a whole new world, right. At social media.

[A]

Yeah. 13 years, like, everything changed. Keep in mind, when I got locked up, Facebook had. Had been out about a year and I'd never been on it. MySpace was a thing.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Can you. So you can imagine how, you know, my. I had. When my phone, you know, it had just come out maybe a year before I got locked up texting. It was a big deal, bro.

[B]

Keyboard phones, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, you can text people. I didn't know what that was. So, yeah, I was.

[B]

Did you have one in prison?

[A]

A phone?

[B]

So.

[A]

No, no, I was a good inmate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. You know, like these guys get in there and they're, you know, they're. They're doing, you know, drugs and they're hustling and they're. They sneak in cell phones and, like, I, you know, I don't have the energy for that.

[B]

I mean, you got out early, so.

[A]

Yeah, I got out. I got my time cut by 12 years, which is crazy. Yeah.

[B]

That's really impressive, actually, because you were supposed to serve 26, right?

[A]

Yeah, I'm supposed to be in prison right now.

[B]

Yeah. And you got out at 13?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's nuts, man. Was that the plan when you got in to kind of reduce it as much as possible?

[A]

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all, the plan. There wasn't much of a plan because I never thought I was going to end up with getting 26 years. Like, you know, and then everybody says, like, well, we got 26 years. Did you.

[B]

So.

[A]

So, man, did you think you were gonna do 26 years? I actually had this conversation yesterday with a friend of mine, and I thought. I never really let it kind of sink in maybe a little bit here or there, but I. I always thought to myself that at some point they'll send me to a camp and I'll escape. I'll leave the camp.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But, you know, the bop, they, like, they know what they're doing. Like, they don't. Even though when I came into the system, I had. I had, like. I had, like, two points for your security level, although a camp's like, under 10, so I had two. I should have gone to a camp, but because I had so much time, they sent me to a medium. And until you get below 20 years, they can't send you to a low. So then I go to a low. After three years, I go to a low, and it's like, okay, so now I've. I'm in a low. But they won't send you to a camp until you're under 10 years. So I'm doing. I'm going to do a significant amount of time before I get to have the ability to go to a camp. And they know during that period of time, most guys. You can send people that have been down a significant amount of time to a camp because they won't run. Because by that point, your expectations of life have lowered to such a degree, you kind of. You're okay with being in prison. But you hear these guys who. They're scared to get out or they get out and they feel sick and they. And that's true. Like, when I got out, I was super uncomfortable. Like, I, you know, you get counted every day at 4. At 4:00. Well, you get counted multiple times a day, but the big one's 4:00 and then 10:00. But I mean, around 4:00 every day for about a year, I got super anxious.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Like, sick. Like, I felt like I'm supposed to be in my cell.

[B]

I'm.

[A]

I'm supposed to be counted. Every time somebody knocked at the door, I kept thinking this. That happened for about six months with a knock at the door where I kept thinking to myself, they're. They're here. Like, they. They came to get me because they realized they shouldn't have let me out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like something went wrong. They're coming to get me because I didn't feel. I felt so un. You know, it was so unnatural to be outside. So.

[B]

Did you have any problems with anyone in prison? Like, any. Any fights or anything?

[A]

I mean, I. I did, like. But not, like, bad. Like, there was no, you know, the guys that come on here and you have to stab people and this and that. Like, I went to a medium and there were those guys there, but those are, like, when gang members show up or. There were maybe 30 white guys on the first compound I was on, there were maybe 30 white guys, so. And all those, all of them, with the exception of myself, were there for basically, methamphetamine.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So I'm one of the few white guys out of 2000 inmates, I think that they had 1800 out of 1800 inmates. I'm one of 30 guys, and I'm the only one there that's not for. There for drugs. So I'm, you know, I. I stayed this. Yeah, I stayed to myself. I wasn't like, hey, you got to join a gang. Hey, you. It wasn't that kind of prison. Although they had gangs and they would argue between themselves and they would have issues with each other. Like, I'm not involved in that. Like, I'm work a job in the library. I'm a GED tutor. And at night I teach. I would teach real estate classes.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah. I taught what's called the. The ACE courses. They were continuing education courses. And I taught real estate courses at night, and it was super popular.

[B]

I bet it was.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm. I'm teaching these courses. And then what was funny about that is that everybody will every. All these inmates want to get out and think they're going to flip houses.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They want to know about real estate. And, hey, there's a real estate course. And I'M teaching the course. And then I'm able to tell them about different things that I've done in real estate. You know, buy a house for this much. Here's how you can get the money. I explain what a hard money lender is. I explain loan to values, how to borrow money, how to set yourself up to borrow mortgages, how to. I do all these things and so they love it. And so now I'm walking around the compound after probably teaching that class for six months. You got guys that are massive. Guys have been locked up 20 years. And they're walking by and they're like, hey, Cox. And I'm looking up, I'm like, hey, what's going on? And they're like, hey, good class last night. Good cl. He's like, my God. Like, this guy's got a prison ged. He looks like a tank, tattoos all over his body. And these guys who typically wouldn't talk to me, right? Not a gang member. I'm. I'm some soft cracker. No reason to talk to me. But you got, you got black guys going. Yo, what's up? That was good class. Hey, cock. What kind of book do you think I should order to? So I read about real estate and you see what I'm saying? Like, yeah, you know, it reminds me of. Did you ever see Shawshank Redemption?

[B]

Yeah. Classic.

[A]

Yeah. So Andy Dufresne, when he starts doing all the guards, taxes, suddenly every. He's. He becomes important in prison, I become important in prison. I'm teaching, I'm either teaching you GED or I'm teaching real estate classes. And I've got a waiting list. So I got a year and a half waiting list for guys to get into these classes.

[B]

Yeah. That's impressive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So, yeah, so that was three years. And then I went to the low. And in the low, there's, there's more white collar criminals. It's probably, the mix is probably, probably 60% black, 30% Mexican, and then maybe, maybe 10% white.

[B]

Okay. No Asians.

[A]

Very few. I mean, there might be maybe a, a large Asian popular. A large Asian group at any given time. And there was 2,000 people in the low. Might be three or four at a time.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah, that's it.

[B]

Yeah, we, we, we stay out of trouble.

[A]

Well, here's what I think happens is the Asians that are in Asian gangs, they don't go to, they don't go to typically end up in lows or mediums. They typically end up in pens. And they stay there because Asians commit crimes that are extremely serious and they, and violent and they're not afraid to be violent. And when they go into prison, they're concerned about gang activities. They're being respectful and, and getting respect. And so they commit violent crimes in prison. So they don't typically. And the other thing about gay Asians is they'll fight, they'll fight their cases. So you're fighting your case and then you lose. You're getting a lot of time. You know, it's very much like the old mob where you fight the entire time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's, you know, they're, they're serious. Yeah. There's not a lot of them. And the ones that are like, they're serious.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Everyone I've met, I haven't met any Asians that were, weren't like. Well, I mean in the low. A couple of guys, but they, you know, they were there for just stupidity. Most of the guys are super serious.

[B]

Yeah. There's a big Asian gang, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, there's a few, like Johnny.

[B]

Chang was in it. I forgot the name of it.

[A]

There's, and there's the, like, they're triads, like, and they do like, like they do, they do stuff like, like I actually was working on a book, I don't know if I'll ever get back to it, where the Asian gangs were robbing factories of the United States that were making computer chips and shipping them to China.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So they're going in hardcore. They're going in and they're, they're zip tying everybody. Holy crap. And then they're loading up 10,000 or 100,000 chips into a van, driving off and then they basically meet some guy in a parking lot who gives them $3 million for $12 million in ships and that, and that guy then puts them on a boat and they ship them back to China. Like, these are not the mob crimes. These are serious crimes. They're bringing in, they're bringing in, they're trafficking. And you know, people like, we're shipping containers full of people. This is a serious, that's a serious issue. Like you, you're not, you're end up in a low. You're going to go to a pen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like that's a serious issue, human trafficking. Not one, 30 guys in a container. God knows if something goes wrong there, you know, there's all kinds of these types of, of things that they do that are so outside the scope that anytime you get caught for it, they, the government doesn't have and they're Organized.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The government doesn't like organization. They don't mind a couple of idiot guys selling crack on the corner, but they're very upset when you organize 18 guys to rob computer chip manufacturers or guys that are bringing in, you know, tons of heroin or sorry, H, you know, bringing in tons of H. Or kidnapping people for ransom. And they'll kidnap people in their own community and, and get ransom and it never leaves the community. Like they don't even, like they have their own subculture.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that's why the RICO got as big as it did, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They don't want the organized crime around. Yeah.

[A]

This definitely, I'll bet you. I wonder, it's funny if there's an Asian gang involved or Asians involved. I wonder what the, what the statistic is on how many of those get charged with rico. It's got to be huge.

[B]

You hear about it with the Italian mob, but I haven't heard about the RICO with other groups.

[A]

Tell your mom's basically, you know, it's a boutique gang now. It's, it's kind of dead. You know, it's flashy and it looks good, but they're not what they were. They're not, you know. Yeah, they're not shaking down. They're not shaking down what do you call unions and massive corporations. And did you ever hear same of the bull. Talk about trying to get next to Trump? I saw that. Yeah. Like he can't even get in the building. Yeah, Like I like. So these guys that are thinking like, well, we're going to start throwing a rock. You can, you can shake down a pop store just by throwing. Every night for a month, you throw a rock through their window and eventually they go, they've replaced so many windows, they go, man, it's cheaper for us just to pay this guy 800amonth than replace $3,000 worth of windows. So, so you can do that. Starbucks doesn't give a fuck. I'll just keep replacing the window. We'll put up some cameras and we'll put a cop in the front. We're going to get rid of you. Like they're. The massive corporation doesn't work anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. And that's kind of like the, you know, and of course the government focused on rico. I mean, they felt sorry. They focused on the mob and they basically gutted it. They created a system where it was. Ben, for the first time ever, it was non beneficial for you to go to trial because the severity of the, of the sentence is so overwhelming. And they Also made it extremely lucrative, let's say, for you to cooperate. So you want to. You've killed eight people. You're going to get a life sentence. Guess what? We can send you to jail for three years at a camp, change your name. As long as you cooperate against these eight people.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, where do I sign up? Knock these eight guys or they're all murderers too. And the truth is none of them are looking out for me. And they. I knock off eight people and might throw on another five or six on top of it just for good measure. And I'll do my little three years and get out. And you put me in Arizona somewhere with a new name. And, you know, so they. Prior to that, it wasn't. It was, you know, prior to that in the, what, the 40s, 50s, 60s? Shoot in the 70s, you know, the mobs paying off so many people that as soon as somebody started to cooperate, they knew it immediately and they just killed them, took them out. Right. But they, you know, then the FBI got serious about it in the 80s, and then they just gutted the entire organization. And, yeah, it's over.

[B]

And now there's cameras everywhere. I feel like it'd be really hard to do what you did right now because you were going into banks often, right?

[A]

It depends on which scam.

[B]

Yeah, scam. And yeah, the mortgage stuff. Because you had to get loans. Right.

[A]

So the. The mortgage scam is probably easier now, really, and safer now than when I was doing it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Because you have to look at it like this, just. And just like what you were just saying. I mean, you're. You're right. If you did it the way I did it. The difference is when I was doing it, I would. I had to go downtown to public records. There's cameras everywhere. Yeah, back then there wasn't, but there are now. There's probably cameras then, too. But. So you go downtown. I gotta fill out the paperwork. I have to do all the research. I'm definitely getting caught on camera. Then I leave. Then at some point, I have to go to a bank. You typically would go. You'd either make a phone call or go into the bank, fill out paperwork. Okay, I'm on camera again. I'm saying now and then I had to go to a closing. I have to go into a lawyer's office or a title company. I have to sign paperwork. There's cameras getting me in and out. Right. So. And I leave. Then I have to remove the money from the bank or open up bank accounts. So I have to go in the bank to get. Open up the bank accounts, do that. Okay. So I have to do all of these things, and all the while they're getting my photograph, right? So if I'm signing documents, they want a copy of my driver's license. They want to copy. Okay? The difference is now I can sit in Starbucks or a coffee shop or sit outside Starbucks where there's no, you know, there's no. There's no cameras.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Go on my computer or a dummy computer, search public records, download all the information I need, create the documents on my computer, upload those documents to public records, pay the fee with a prepaid debit card in some homeless person's name or something. Nobody's ever seen me. I can turn around and I can go online and apply for those loans. I'm going to get the loans, of course. Right. I'm going to have W2s pay stubs, I'm going to have proof of residency, perfect credit. So once again, I'm going to get those loans. They're in somebody else's name. Some dummy, some synthetic identity I've created. Then once again, nobody's seen me. Then I'm going to open up bank account online. Nobody's seen me. They're going to ask me to upload my driver's license. I can make a fake driver's license with the guy's picture on it, whatever, upload it. Boom. Okay. Then I have to get. I get approved for the loans and I get scheduled the closings and all. But I think 12 or 13 states, you can do what's called remote closings. So I can do a remote closing on screen, and the notary set needs me to hold up my driver's license or fax them a copy and then show my, you know, they need to see me. Yeah, well, the thing is, is that right now there's AI that you can put. You can use a filter where it changes who you are, what you look like. Right. This actually happened the other day was an old woman, really. And the. The title agent just happened to catch her because she. She noticed one, the way she was moving, and two, her responses were slow because she was completely computer generated. And they asked her a question, and the person couldn't answer the question correctly because the person wasn't. They didn't. English wasn't their first language. So they're typing the answer to have this old synthetic, old woman, this. This AI generated woman answer the question, but they don't even understand the question. So the old woman's not answering. So they up had it been me, and I don't look like me, and I've got an AI generated whatever clone of this person that I'm somebody that's slightly altered. Then what are you gonna do? I'm gonna do the closing. I'm gonna sign. They're gonna send me the documents. I'm gonna sign all the documents, and what are they going to do with the money? You're gonna say, hey, why are the money to my bank accounts, which I also opened online? Hmm. And so you can do that. And as long as you kind of slowly remove that money, you're gonna be okay. Like, you wouldn't see me in any way. I mean, that's one version of that scam. There's lots of other versions of real estate scams where maybe you have to meet somebody, but that person is like a shill, and they're not gonna get a copy of. They might be able to ID you, but they're not gonna ask for a copy of your driver's license. I mean, it's not hard for. Say you meet some guy at a real estate convention or a conference, and I say, hey, listen, man, by the way, I got a buddy who. Who works at the bank, and he can. He can give me foreclosures, and we can put them on, you know, we can list them for sale and sell them. The problem is that I owe money to the irs, and I'm really in a bad spot. Would you mind doing it? Put the house in your name, Put it up for sale. You go to the closings, you do everything, and then when you get the money, you know, you. You cut me a check, cut my buddy a check for 30%. I get a 30%? You get 30%. You know how people would. How many people would jump on that? Where they say. They say, hey, you got a $400,000 piece of property, we're going to sell it for 300,000. You get $100,000. They're gonna be like, hell, yeah. This is some guy who met me. There's no cameras. He met me at a. At a real estate conference. Nobody's ever seen me. He meets me, we talk in the parking lot. I give him the address, he drives by. I don't even go with them. He goes in the house. Well, the truth is that some house that isn't is some house I leased. It's an Airbnb I leased for a week.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I've already gone town downtown, and I've satisfied the loan on it, and I then prepare A fake quit claim deed. And I quit claim deed it into his name. He puts it on the. He puts it on the MLS or whatever. For sale by owner, Craigslist. Whatever he wants to put it on, he puts it on one of these things for 300,000. It's a $400,000 house. Within a week, people are going to be like, oh, my God, I'll take it. I'll take it or take it. You say, okay, you got to close. Like, I'm not waiting. I'm not waiting 30 days. You got to close within a week. And this person can go in the house. They can have an appraisal. They can go in the house. But do you have to have cash? Well, some investor is going to come in and say, man, I can buy it for 300,000, put it back on the market, sell it for 400,000. It'll take me a month and a half, but I'll make 100 grand. They'll come in, he'll do. They'll research the title. They'll see that there's. That there's no mortgage on it, and that the deed was recently transferred from the owner. It was quick claim deeded to. The guy that's got it for sale looks like a foreclosure. So he's going to go, okay, looks like this person was maybe behind on their mortgage. Something happened, but it was. Their mortgage was satisfied, and then they transferred it. So there was a transfer. So you do own it. You go to the closing, you have the money sent to your bank account. I tell you to wire money to a gold or a precious metal dealer or buy me diamonds for $200,000 with diamonds. I have that delivered somewhere. I have the gold shipped to me, and then I end up with precious metal, and I've got all my money. And then in six months, once people realize what's happened, the FBI shows up at your place. And you know what you tell him? You say, I met some guy. We talked in the parking lot. He knew a guy at the bank. He told me this is what I sent him the money. And they're like, no, we can see you transfer the money, but what you did was. It was a scam. You were a part of that scam. He can show him the text messages, but. Yeah, I know, but that. That phone that you text messages this guy over and over again, that's a drop phone. We can't find that phone. Well, we got no picture of this guy. Yeah, but his name was this, and it's not his name. Bro, we've looked it up. You know, maybe you could even tell him, hey, I want a hundred thousand in cash. Like, you're gonna have to arrange. Told you, I got IRS problems. Like, we had this agreement. You got to give me that money in cash. Maybe it takes him a month. What does it take? What does it matter if it takes him six weeks or. Or eight weeks to give you the money in cash? He's gonna do it because he's so thrilled because now you're telling him, I got four more houses we could do this with. He's like, oh, my God. I'm gonna move half a million dollars. This is amazing. What an amazing opportunity, not realizing he's burying himself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, you know, that's a scammer. I never get seen. I got one guy who's seen me, and everything's in his name. I mean, it's a horrible scam. Obviously, I feel bad for that guy. I'll put money on his books. But he's got some. Some serious questions to. To. To answer. But. So there. I mean, look, there's so many versions of real estate scams that you could get away with. And keep in mind, too, when I was doing it, if I had to couple of W2s and pay subs to provide my income, I had to make those. There are websites you can go to right now and buy W2s and pay stubs.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, it's pay stub.org or something is what. There's like 10 of them.

[B]

So you buy it, and then how do you change the name to your name?

[A]

No, no. You just. You go in and you say, hey, my name's Matthew Cox, and I need a W2 for 2000. 22 that says I made 230,000. I live in Florida. Let's. Let's say I have two kids. They go, okay, and they calculate everything. They print out a W2. Here's my Social Security number, everything. They print it out. Okay. What? Yeah. Then you say, oh, by the way, in 2000, I also need one for 2000. Let's say 20, 24. They print that one out. You okay. By the way, I make this much money a year. This much money a month. Every two weeks. I paid, you know, bi. Monthly. I make this much money every two weeks. You tell them how much you make. They calculate all of the. All the payments, everything. And then they'll print. And you say, I need two pay stubs. They'll give you a year to date. So you say, so if. Let's say you Tell them. How long have you been worked for the company? Oh, since January 1st. Well, okay, so it's now, you know, February 28th. Right. So I need. You need four pay stubs. They calculate the year to date, the entire time, how much has been. It's exactly like your employer did it. Wow. You could put any employer you want. You can put the phone number. So then they can. So imagine that I can, I can verify that I've had a job for over two years. I still have the job and I make over $200,000 a year. That basically qualifies me to purchase. Assuming it. Assuming a lot of other things, like you have good credit. That basically would allow me to purchase probably a six hundred thousand dollar house.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Maybe more. We saw a thin air, right?

[B]

Don't the banks verify the W2 stuff though?

[A]

They can't. It depends on the bank. They can. Well, when they verify it, typically they just call your employer. So obviously you have to have a phone number that they can call. And somebody says, yeah, hi. Who? Oh, yeah, no, no. Yeah, Matt. Not here right now. Did you want to talk to him? Oh, you just want to verify he's. Oh, no, no, he's been here for, oh gosh, at least two, three. He's been here longer than I have. I've been here for three years. Okay. Anything else? Oh, okay, thank you. And they hang out the phone very casual. What do they care? They could do a. There's a form they can fill out, which is an 8821 form which verifies your employment with the government. But they don't always do that. So if you just have to make sure you. Wherever you go, they don't do that. And keep in mind, if I'm trying to borrow money in somebody else's name, I don't care if they do that because that form's probably not going to catch up with me for a few months.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I close the loan, I get the money, and maybe three months later they realize this guy doesn't even work here. This isn't even a corporation. That's if they figure out it's not a corporation. If you're smart, you do it with like a shell company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You buy a shell company that's been around for 10 years.

[B]

That's impressive, man. How far out were you thinking during this? Were you thinking month by month, like, oh, I'm gonna move here next month, or were you kind of just living in the moment?

[A]

Well, I mean, initially I owned a mortgage company, so I was Thinking I was just doing, like, little frauds. Right. Like, I change a W2A pace of. Just so that my clients could get. Get a loan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we probably did that for, I think the FBI estimated like, $40 million over the course of several years. Like, we did that much fraud, which isn't that much fraud. Like, to me, that wasn't that. Because these loans were. Were going to clients that were getting the mortgages, and they were paying. They were getting a mortgage, buying a house with the mortgage, and they were making the payments. That's fraud. If I get you a $300,000 loan using fake W2s and pay subs, that's a $300,000 fraud. Now people think, oh, you made 300,000. No, I didn't. I made a $6,000 broker fee.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But it is. It's still fraud. So the. So the FBI said that was about $40 million. But then eventually, I get in trouble, and I lose my license, and I sell the mortgage company, and then I start. Then I started a synthetic identity scam where I was. I figured out how to get Social Security to issue me Social Security numbers that. That were going to children.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'd make a fake W2 and a fake. I'm sorry. I would make a fake birth certificate, and I'd make a fake shot record, and I go into the Social Security office, and I'd say, hey, I had a son that was born. He's 7 months old or 10 months old, and he never had a Social Security issue number issued. And they go, okay, what's your name? I see your I.D. okay. And they'd pull me up, and they go, because your Social Security number is paired to your parents. So they pull up me, and they go, huh? And they. They pull up his birth certificate, and they go, huh? Yeah, you're right. He's. He's never had a Social Security issue. That's weird. And they go, okay, hold on. And they go to, like, you know, screen number five, and they pull it up, and they type some stuff, and they'd ask somebody to come over and sign something or type something in. And. And they go, okay, you'll have it in 10 days. Ten days later, I get a Social Security card with whatever name I wanted, because you can name your child anything you want. You don't even have to use your last name. So it can be whatever. So I would create these synthetic identities. Once I got the Social Security card, I'd go online, and I would fill out. I'd try and apply for Credit, obviously I don't say he's a seven month old kid. No, I say he's a 32 year old man.

[B]

So they don't verify the age the credit companies?

[A]

No. Well first of all they don't know who this is. They've never heard of this person. The first time they hear about this person is when I, when I apply for a credit card. So you think the credit bureaus know who you are, but they only know who you are once you apply. You just gave them, you just started a file on yourself when you applied.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

So initially, you know, it comes back, no file found. This person doesn't have a credit profile, but you just created, created one by asking. So now they've got an inquiry and you get turned down of course the first time. But then I also go to SunTrust Bank. I apply so I get turned out by one or two. But the information's all the same. So now there's a few inquiries and what happens is bank of America turns you down. They come back and they go, yeah, we can't give you a credit card but what we can give you is a secured credit card. Give us 500 bucks and we'll give you a secured credit card. Nobody knows it's secured. So I send them 500 bucks. They send me a credit card and a seven month old child thing, you know that they think it's a 32 year old man. So I get that credit card and then I get two or three more and I make the payments. I keep the balances below 50%, normally below 30%, make the payments and in six months from now the credit bureaus start reporting credit scores and credit scores would be like 697 OH5 now they would be higher because back then they were more strict. They changed some of those laws and so now these guys would probably come out higher, even higher. But they were all roughly 700. So you get about these. So now I've got, I've got this synthetic person who has 700 credit scores and has three trade lines. All I have to do is make W2s and pay subs, have an employer that will verify their employment and make 24 months worth of canceled checks. And this person looks as solid, if not more solid on paper than a legit than you do than a legitimate person. You know, they don't have a lot of credit, but they got 700 credit scores. They've been on their job for five years. They've been paying their rent perfect for the last 24 months. Do we want to lend this guy money? Of course. He's perfect. He's great. And he's not bogged down by debt. He doesn't have a car payment. He doesn't have. You don't have a lot of this. And he makes great money and he's got a lot of money to put down on the property. So they're like. Absolutely. So they're lending him 100,000, $200,000 loans, 150. And so I would have these guys go into an area of Tampa called Ybor City. It was a really rundown area, but the city kept was dumping. It's one of those places where they talk about gentrification. You know, they're constantly trying to. I don't know if there's like this in Vegas. There's got to be some area where the city's constantly trying to dump money into.

[B]

Yeah, I feel like every major city has that.

[A]

Absolutely. You're absolutely. Usually a few areas. So Ebor was one of them. They just built. They just put like $80 million into this one area where they built like, you know, they built shopping malls and shopping areas and restaurants and all kinds of stuff. Right. So it's like there's money being dumped in there, but it's still, it's still in the middle of a crack area. Right, Right. It's still a horrible area. So my guy, I, I, I go in there and I buy houses in these synthetic identities names, and every identity gets five houses or six houses. They buy these houses for $50,000. But I record the sale of the house at 200,000, let's say, and all. And the way you do that is you just pay the extra Doc Stamps. You buy a house for a hundred thousand dollars, you pay 700 bucks in DOC stamps. I'm buying these for $50,000. So I'm paying 350. So I just paid an extra $1,050 in DOC stamps. And that 50, $50,000 sale shows up for 200,000 in public records. So now anybody that looks in public records to say, hey, would you pay for this anyway? Hold on, let me check. Oh, wow, you paid 205. And I own that house over there too. Hold on. Oh, you paid 190 for that one? Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So I did this with so many people in this area, it drove the property values up. And it actually was on Forbes said that The Ybor City zip code, it was 33605 in 2003, was the fastest zip was one of the top 20 fastest zip codes in the nation.

[B]

That was from you?

[A]

Yeah. And that was.

[B]

That's.

[A]

I did a hundred. And the FBI said I did 109 houses. I don't think I did that many, but I borrowed. So these guys would now buy the house. It's worth 200,000 minimum. And then I was. We would get an appraisal on the house. We do. We've renovated a little bit, clean it up, paint it, do a little bit. We get an appraisal on the house. And then, of course, the appraisal is using my other comparable sales to verify what this house is worth. So if I create all these comparable sales, I'm determining what the price of the market is. So they're. They're saying, you've got. An appraiser comes out and says, yeah, the place is worth 200, 000. So then you go to the bank, and the bank says, yeah, we'll lend you, you know. Well, you don't. You know, you have. You have decent credit. We'll lend you 80% of that. We'll lend you 160. Or we'll lend you 90, 180. So I got a 200, 000 house. They're gonna lend me $180,000.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And so I get the 180, I make three or four payments and I stop paying. But I'm doing this on all five houses.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm Adds up, right. So it adds up quick. I'm borrowing like a million dollars. I'm making six or it's almost all, not all profit because I did have to buy the house for 50.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm making. I'm getting. Making $600,000 on these guys. On each one of these guys is worth 6 or 700,000. Because there's other things I would do by this point. I'm able to get real credit cards. Once you get the 700 credit scores. Now I'm getting credit cards for 10,000, for $20,000. I'm also borrowing personal loans for 15,000. So you get three or four personal loans, I mean, for an extra 45 grand there. So each one of these guys was roughly worth close to 100,000 or close to $1 million. Let's say, typically the mortgages, you make it about 6 or. Well, no, let's say. So you make about 600,000, conservatively, 600 to $700,000 on the mortgages in profit, maybe another 100,000. Let's say that's reasonable. So that's 7 or 800,000. I usually don't talk about the credit cards because they're, they're so minor. Yeah, I mean the per and the personal loans are, you know, they weren't big. They were 15 grand. That was what the Fed had set the, they could, they would lend anybody 15,000. They'd lend you double whatever you made in a month or up to $15,000.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

If you had over a six, I think it was a 650 or a 620 credit score. And my guys have 700 some. So I would go out and I get some credit cards, then I'd go get three or four, but not three or four. I never got more than three. I'm not gonna say four. I got. The most I ever got was like 315000 loans. You know, you go to bank of America 15, you go to SunTrust 15, you gotta, you know, BBNT 45, right? It's 45 grand. That's not, look, that's not nothing. That's, that's decent money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I would do that. And then of course I get a credit card for once for 10,000, once for 20, once for 12, one's for seven. And then they stop giving them to you. So then you switch to the department store cards and you go, okay, Birdines will give me 3,000 dol. Then you go to, you know, you know, whatever it is, the next one under, you know, Sack Sack suddenly gives you two, gives you a thousand dollars. Like they're, your scores are dropping dramatically. Then you turn around, you go to, you know, I would go to, okay, go to Home Depot. Home Depot would give me like 500 or something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then you got to a point where now you try for something. When they start just, everybody's denying you. You're just like, okay, I've destroyed them.

[B]

Right?

[A]

He's done. And then I stop paying everything. Run all those credit cards up over the next month or two because they don't know you stop paying the mortgages and then suddenly this guy's got five mortgages that are going into foreclosure and you stop paying all these, all these credit cards. After a month or so you maybe make one payment, you run them all up and you just stop paying everything. And then you just wait. And then after a month or two, the bank start mailing you letters saying you're delinquent, your 30 days, 60 days delinquent on your property. We're going to foreclose. And at that point what I would do is I would get, I would take a, an article out of the newspaper. This is funny because you don't even. How old are you?

[B]

My dad used. I'm 28. My dad used to read the newspaper.

[A]

Yeah, you don't even. Okay. So I was like, you barely even remember. They don't have like newspapers.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I would take an article out of the newspaper and I would. I would retype the whole article and it would be an article like There was a 20 car pileup on i75 and there were, whatever, so many, you know, there were injuries. And one person was life flighted to Tampa General Hospital. And that's all I'd say. I retype the whole thing. But I put my guy's name as the person who was life flighted. Then I would print that article out on newsprint. You know, you go to the art store.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you can buy newsprint. So I had to trim it up just that it fit through the computer, through the printer. Right. Because it comes on these rolls. So it's. I guess they probably have them in regular sheets now. But back then I. You could buy a roll. You had to roll it out and trace it and you make five or six. And I printed out on that. And then I cut that up so it looked like you cut it out of the newspaper. And I put it on the, on the, on the, the printer and close the thing and then make a copy of it so it looks like it's a. It looks like you cut out of the newspaper. Wow. And then I'd write a letter and I'd highlight my guy's name, my synthetic identity's name, and I'd write a letter from his, his, his synthetic sister saying, look, my brother. As you can see by this article, my brother was recently in a. A tragic accident. He's currently in a coma. And the doctors say that even if he lives, he'll never work again. And that's why we haven't been able to pay the mortgage. I'm so sorry. I understand your foreclosing and, and you know, perfectly reasonable. I just want to let you know this is the reason and what the, what the collection companies want is. They want a reason because that. When that person gets that reads it at the collection company goes and types it up and scans the letter and puts it in their system. Every other person that gets it, they're like, do we call? Don't even call. Just keep foreclosing. We've called, we've gone. The guys, he's in a coma. No, never working again. Take. Take it. Take the property. They Just go through the property. They. When they go in front of the judge, your honor, the guy's in a coma. His sister wrote a letter every. It's no problem. They take back the property, they put it back on the market. They try and sell it. They can't. Three months later, they lower the price. Three months later, they lower the price. Three months later, they lower the price. A year later, they resell that property for 80 or $100,000. And they lose $100,000 or $120,000 on their. The mortgage that they lent. And they chalk it up to. It happens. Right. People get into car accidents, People get divorced. People's houses burned out. Things happen. So I did that for about 18 months, maybe close to two years. I borrowed 11 and a half million dollars on that scam.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I was already on probation. I mentioned I'd gotten in trouble. I was on probation. I was on probation, by the way, for wire fraud. I had been. A friend of mine had gotten caught running a scam, and she. She and her husband wore a wire on me. And they got me to talk about how I'd make. Made fake W2s and pay stubs for my wife at the time. And so the FBI agent. I realized. What's happened. What I've said realizing, like, oh, my gosh. Like, I realize they're wired. While we're in the conversation.

[B]

Oh, you knew. Mid conversation.

[A]

Oh, yeah. In the middle of the conversation, it dawned on me. Wow. Right?

[B]

You got good instincts.

[A]

No, well, no, I wish I could say that. What. What happened was the. Her husband. So I had just refinanced their house to get him, like, 75 grand so they could pay their attorney.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they. So while we're talking, I'm saying, look, don't tell the fi. Don't tell the FBI anything. Just tell them like, you never met my wife. Tell them. She called on the phone, like, I'm coming up with a scenario that will kill the investigation. Sure. And Gretchen, which is a girl's name. She goes, matt, we can't lie to the FBI. And I went, what. What are you talking about? You've been lying to the FBI? And she's like, no, we haven't. I'm like, I talking about I just refinanced your house using fake W2s and pay stubs that you gave me. Like you're. You're still committing fraud. What are you talking about? Like, you can't lie to the FBI. So her husband stands up, he goes, we've never lied to the FBI. We may not have told them everything, but we'd never lied. And I'm looking at him like the, like, who are you talking to? Because I know that's not true. So you're not saying this statement for me. And then I realized, like, oh, wow, wow. Like, you're wired. Damn you. You drove across town to bring me to lunch to get me on a wire because you want to see that person. They want them in person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We could have had this conversation on the phone. And I'm like, oh, wow. Like, I go, I hope you're getting something for this. And she starts crying and she goes, I don't have to go to prison. She's. I don't have to go to prison. It's just bad. I got two kids. I got. Blah, blah. I'm like, oh, I don't have a kid. I went, wow. Okay. So I got up and I said, tell the FBI agent just to call my office. So he calls my office. I tell him, look, I'll. I'll come down and talk to you, you know, whatever. Tuesday of next week, hang up the phone. I get a lawyer. Lawyer says, you're not talking to this guy. And the lawyer says, give me $75,000 and I'll. We work out a deal. Give me 75 grand and I'll work with them and talk to them and see if I can keep you out of jail. And he does. He keeps me out of jail. The truth is, I was never really facing jail.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you see what I'm saying?

[B]

All they had was you saying that.

[A]

Well, and they had those loans that my wife, that were. My wife had taken out, like three or four loans, but two of them, we've already sold the properties, and one was about to be sale. Sold. And I never borrowed more than what the property was worth, so there was never any real threat of the lender. There was no. What they call, potential loss.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So in the end, they were trying to say it was half worth half a million dollars. And we argued it down to nothing. There was no potential loss. So what they said was, fine, we're going to charge them with bank fraud. Like, they're not going to let me go. Yeah. And I said, I'll plead guilty to bank fraud, but you have to drop all the charges against my wife.

[B]

Oh, they had charges against her.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I shouldn't say that because they hadn't charged either of us. Yes. Yet. I said, you could charge me, but you can't charge my wife. Because they wanted to charge her, because think about it. She's the one that signed the documents. She's the one that borrowed the money. She's the one that said all this was true, right? So they want her, too. I'm like, no, no, no. She didn't know what was going on. She just signed whatever I put in front of her. She doesn't have a clue. And so they said, okay, fine. And they realized, too, I'm orchestrating this. What they really wanted was they wanted me to go into my office and give them all of my mortgage brokers. And it's funny, because I always say, like, my lawyer suggested that, like, I was disgusted. I was like, what? He's like, you haven't been indicted. He's like, I can keep you from being indicted. It's called a pretrial intervention. He goes, what we can do is. He said, they want your. Your guys in your office. Because obviously Gretchen and her husband had said, this guy's running a mill, right? These guys are doing millions of dollars every single month in bad loans. And so the. So he was like, what you. What you should do is go down, grab 10 or 15 of the most egregious loans that your brokers have done. We'll bring them to the FBI, go over what they've done. They'll get arrested. You'll never be indicted. You can go about your. Go on about your life. And I went, I'm not gonna do that. Like, I've seen the Godfather. I'm not gonna snitch. Got to snitch on these guys. I'm not going to do that. They're disgusted. If I knew then what I know now, I would have pulled up in a pickup truck with a dolly. I would have gone into the Friday meeting. I would have gone up and scooped up the file cabinets with all the guys there and said, the FBI is going to be coming talking to you guys. If I was you, I get lawyers. And I would have taken the whole thing, and I would have ratted them all out.

[B]

Really.

[A]

Because the moment that things went bad for me, everybody lined up to talk. Everybody cooperated. They said, oh, I didn't do anything, but I know he did this. Okay? I can cooperate. I did that. They were all ready to roll.

[B]

Even your girlfriend, right at the time.

[A]

No, no, this is. I didn't have a girlfriend. This was. Okay, actually, listen. So. Actually, that is true, but not at this time. This time, I was married and getting a divorce, remember? So I, at this point, I pay my lawyer 75, 000. I say, I'll just take the charge. So I take the charge, my wife and I get a divorce and I lose the mortgage company. Remember I told you, I just saw.

[B]

It caused the divorce. That, that moment.

[A]

You know, what caused the divorce is I was not a good husband. I was, I cheated on my wife. I didn't want to be married. You know, I dated my wife. We dated for a few months. She got pregnant. I'm Catholic. I didn't like the alternative. Yeah, I don't have a problem. I don't have a problem with the alternate. I don't want to be involved in that. And, and there are certain things that are. I'm okay with that, that alternative occurring, but I wasn't poor. I wasn't poor. I wasn't a child. You know, it wasn't incest. Like the things that I can justify, that didn't apply to me. I made good money, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I wasn't young. I was, I was in my 20s. Like, it didn't apply. So she said, well, then we got to get married. I said, well then we're going to get married. And you know that the marriage is doomed when you're telling people you're going to get married. And this is the way you put it. Yeah, bro, I'm getting married next month. And you know, if it doesn't work out, we'll get a divorce. Like, that's not how you say that. Yeah, yeah. So. And so it was, it was doomed from the beginning because I'm, I'm having sex with, you know, my female mortgage brokers. I'm, I'm, I'm having sex with account executives. Like, I'm never took this serious. Like I just, it was just a complete bag to begin with. Right. I'm not that I'm, I'm mentally probably not that better. Except now I'm not running around cheating. I'm just still kind of a douchebag, but way, way worse than when you're committing fraud and you're making tons of money and you're young, straight, go, oh my God. Like so, so overwhelmingly obnoxious and just a, so just straight scumbag. So didn't give a. About anybody. So what happens is I start running that second scam I told you about.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I can. I'm now a felon. I'm on three years paper. So I start running the synthetic identity scam. I run the synthetic identity scam. I borrow eleven and a half million dollars and we would get caught. Like I'd get caught by A bank. And they'd call up and I'd get on the phone and they'd say, hey, you know, we. We know what you've done. This is what's going on. This. This guy. Like, I call up. I remember one time I called up as. As. What's the name of the guy? Most of the characters that I made. Most of these synthetic identities were named after characters in the movie Reservoir Dogs. Oh, wow. So it was like Mr. Red, Mr. Black, Mr. White, Mr. Blue, you know, Jay. Like, so I like James Red. He Black. So. But I remember this guy was called. I want to say this guy was named Alan Duncan because I knew the first couple I did. I did not use normal name.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I want to say this was Alan Duncan. Anyway, I. So I do Alan Duncan. And they caught the fact that Alan Duncan wasn't a real person. Right. Like, they bought they. With the money. They gave us like 180,000 or something on this house that was worth probably 30 grand. And. But we were supposed to make the payments, and everybody was assigned certain houses to maintain. So let's say I give you 40 grand, but I need you to make the payments for the next three months on this house. Go buy. Make sure the yard gets mowed, whatever, and. Okay, no problem. Well, my buddy that I gave that assignment to never made the first payment. Just forgot, you know, just. Idiot. And so I get a call one day that says, hey, what's going on? We just got a phone call from the account executive for this bank. And it was. It was South Star bank out of Georgia. Was it out of Georgia? Anyway, it's irrelevant. So they. I go, oh, my God. So I. I called my Go to my buddy. I'm like, well, did you make the payment? He's like, oh, was it due? So they're already investigating. So I pick up the phone and I call South Star bank, and I talk to. We get the account executive to say, who told what's going on? Who. Who's involved? Who knows? They said, look, man, the prank. The bank president knows this is a small bank, right? It's not a big bank. It's really a lender that calls himself a bank.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

So. And they're. They're like, I'm sure they're licensed as a bank, but they probably had one location. So I call up, I get them on the phone, and they're basically. And I'm saying, hey, this is Alan Duncan. I understand that there's an issue with the loan. I. Sorry. I. My mortgage payment came back. I put in the mail. I'll get you one immediately. I'll get you overnight. And they're like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. It's just too late for that. They're like, we, we know you don't exist. Well, we know there is no Alan Duncan. You know, we're. And so they're doing a whole investigation. They've already pulled taxes from the irs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, they've already contacted the bank. There's no. The bank account doesn't exist because I gave than bank statements. Bank statements and everything. So I would make fake. I'd fake blank. A blank bank statements for like SunTrust.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I could put it in the printer and I could print out any bank statement I wanted. The problem is that if you did call South Trust, you figure out fairly quickly this is not a bank account. So the way I got around that, by the way, is I just. I opened my own online banks. So I just would open a. I create a website for, let's say, the bank of Ebola or Southern Exchange bank dot com. And. And then I would make my own bank statements, print those out. And if you called, first of all, you could go to the website, which looked like a legit website, and then you could call. If you called, it would go to voicemail. It would say, hi, this is, you know, Southern Exchange bank of Clarksville. You know, we're. We're a small local bank here for you. We're currently experiencing high caller volume at the moment. Like, there was a very professional thing at. But I could, you could call back if you. There wasn't somebody there to answer the phone. Right. Like, I've got a bank of phones behind me on my credenza. If that one rings, you know it and you be like, oh, shit. You pick it up, you click. You know, Southern Exchange Bank. How am I help you? Who? I don't know. Hold on a second. Let me, Let me check. Who is this? You're saying just. Okay, no problem. Yeah, hold on. I'll. I'll just act like you're a bank. Yeah, sure. Who. Yeah, no, I can. I can verify the account hold. Oh, and the name is. Okay. What's the account number? Okay, yeah, I can't tell you exactly what's in there, but I can, I can verify it. How much is. How much does the last statement say? Says he's got $32,000. 700. Yep. Yeah, no, that's, that's true. Yeah. How long has he been with you? Oh, about 18 months. 18 months. Open the account on, you know, you explain. They go, are you anything else? Like, I can't give you anything else without an authorization. No, no, it's fine. Okay, thank you. Click. Like, they're like, oh, they're thrilled. They want to be able. This is some underwriter who wants this to be true.

[B]

Right. Because he makes money. Right?

[A]

Right. He's. He's. He's. He's not gonna dig in. He's like, can you verify this? You can? Okay, great. I called the number. Somebody answered. They verified it. I went to the website. What about. I've got. I've got original bank statements. What am I supposed to do? How else do I do this? And that's really as simple as it is. So the point is, is that I would get calls from banks every once in a while and say, hey, this is up. This is what's going on. And I sat there and just said, look, I don't know what you want me to tell you. You know, I can. I can give you the money back. Let me just cut you a check. And they go, that's too late for that. And. And then I go, okay, well, look, it's too late for that, because you think, what, you're going to foreclose on the property, get your money back? Yeah, of course. Of course. I say, okay, well, here's what's really happening, guys. That property is not worth $200,000, you know, or whatever. 180 or whatever. Let's say it's not worth 200,000. They go, what do you mean, no? We have an appraisal. I go, great, get out the appraisal. Okay, look at comp number one. Comp number one is owned by a guy named James Red. Comp number two is owned by a guy named, you know, Lee Black. Comp number three is owned by a guy named, you know, whatever. And I'd say I'm all of those people. Here's what I did, and I'd explain. I bought the house for this much. I paid this much. I had this. So really, I record the value and use up my own comparables to get this appraisal, which you guys signed off on. So your $180,000 loan is attached to a house that's worth 30 grand. It's a. And honestly, by the time you foreclose on it, crackheads will have gone out in there, they'll pull out all the copper wire, they'll bash out all the windows, and they'll be smoking crack, and you'll have to start evicting people It's a fucking nightmare waiting to happen. So you can let me. You can do one of two things. You can get all your money back or you can call the FBI. But you can't do both. Call the FBI. Even if the FBI catches me, which is highly unlikely because all of these bank accounts were opened in, in false identities, names, and the money's not there anymore. It's gone. So you can, you can call the FBI. They could try and track me down. They never will. I've been doing this a long, long time. Keep in mind I have to sound extremely confident for them to feel like they're in a bad position.

[B]

Right?

[A]

I've been doing this a long, long time, fellas. So you call the FBI that if they track you down, which they won't, but let's assume they do. Let's face it, all I'm going to get is some kind of a judgment because they're never going to recoup the funds. You'll never get the money. Or you can just let me go get a cashier's check and send it to you. You don't call the FBI, we're all good. Because, let's face it, nobody, nobody wants the FBI going through their files. And they're going to tear your files apart too, right? So they're thinking, do we want to be involved in an FBI and what not just that, do we want our name in the paper?

[B]

Right.

[A]

We just got. Do we want the people that put their money into this establishment to start this company that's a lender? Do we want them knowing we're so stupid we just lent $180,000 to a guy that doesn't exist? No. Do you still have the money? Absolutely. Okay. Can you. When can you use cashier's check? All right. You send them a cashier's check. No, I've done that multiple times, by the way. No one's ever called the FBI. Wow. You would think. They get the money it clear and they go, this guy, let's call.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Nobody, nobody wants the FBI going through their files, period. Even if you're a standard up and up mortgage company, that's not doing anything wrong. How intrusive do you think it is for the FBI to come start sifting through your files? Your employees don't want to see the FBI, and that's really kind of how, you know, you live in a police state. Because if the FBI showed up right now and said, hey, we need to talk to you, you'd be scared.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You've Done nothing wrong. I've done nothing wrong. Why would I be scared? The first thing when people. Two cops. You. You knock on the door, two cops are at the front door. You get that? People are like, my heart drops. Right? And I've said nothing wrong. That's how you know. You know. And that's exactly what those people thought. Do we want the FBI digging through our stuff? And this is. That's a legitimate bank would do that. Who knows if these guys. These guys are doing subprime loans.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're doing funky stuff. They know it's funky. They don't want the FBI showing up. God knows what's going on behind the scenes. They. They took the money. Listen, I had so many things like that happen, and I could. Like, that's why. Remember we talked about Lex Friedman?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's why Lex Friedman's podcast is six and a half hours. Because stories. Because he wanted. He. He didn't. I was, you know, like, look, this. This. I can keep going. He's. Keep going. I was like, yeah, I get here. I. And I would. Every time we'd stop, I go, well, let me trim it down. I'll trim it down.

[B]

You.

[A]

No, no, no. I don't want it to trim. You. I don't want to trim it down. I want everything, and I'll figure out what should stay. But we talked for over seven hours. He trimmed it down to six and a half hours. People are like, wow, you talk for six and a half hours. No. And then, you know, the funniest thing about that is my wife was in the car.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

She's waiting in the car. Wife gone to lunch. She came back. She knows it takes about an hour or two for him to tell his story. Seven hours.

[B]

Oh, poor wife.

[A]

Oh, my.

[B]

You didn't even let her inside.

[A]

Yeah, I thought she was gonna be fear, but she. She wasn't. She was like. She eventually climbed to the back seat and fell asleep. She's. I just figured you were just going, and the longer you could spend with Lex Friedman, the better. Yeah, that's true, man.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

No, she's a. She's a gangster. What.

[B]

What was the ultimate reason you got caught? Then after that.

[A]

So it's. It's. So what happens is this. I did that one scam, right? The synthetic identity scam. I do that. I borrow, like, eleven and a half million. And it's funny, too. I don't even know if it's eleven and a half million. Like, when they first came out, they said it was like 16 or 17 million. That number's floating around there somewhere. No, they. I got them down to like eleven and a half million because they said it was 109 houses, and I don't think it was 109 houses either. That's, you know, they blow up their. Their numbers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which works great if you're trying to do your, you know, you're trying to do the whole, I'm a big time scammer, but when you're facing time in front of a Dodge, Right? Like, you're like, that's not true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, I mean, I'm sorry about that. Probably got all kind of rattles. Go. So what happens is the. I'm. What happens is I have a buddy of mine, right? I have a buddy who needs money. He sees me driving an Axe Audi. He sees that I'm. I'm buying underwriting. We got. We got a dirty underwriter at one place that I bought him a Mercedes. You know, we sees me, I'm going on a week vacation here. I meet some girl at a. At a wedding and take her on a week vacation. You know, I'm. I'm dating women that are way too attractive to be dating me. Yeah, I'm. I'm living this amazing life. I'm vacationing all the time. I'm. I'm driving, you know, amazing vehicles. I've got tons of real estate. And he's like, you know, I'm struggling, and we're buddies. How can you help me out? And I have a. A chick that I was dating, too. She says, how can you help me out? So the short version is I set them up in two different scams, and she ends up not getting caught, but getting questioned. So she. She had a fake id and the photograph, it was. It was. Her name was Rosita Perez, and she was. She was assuming a real person's identity who had perfect credit, whatever. And we had. We had rented a house, transferred the deed out of the house into Rosita's name. We borrowed multiple mortgages on the house. So she's going into closing. She goes, One Clos, we get a check for like $109,000 or something. Goes to another closing. She's supposed to get another check for 120,000 or something. But at the second closing, the title agent looks at the ID and goes, this isn't you. And she goes, excuse me. And by the way, it is her. It's her photo. She is. Yeah, she is. This doesn't look like you. And she's like, no, it's Me. She goes, no, something's wrong. She goes, hold on. She gets another closing agent to come in and look at it. And the closing agent goes, that's her. She says, no, I don't think so. It doesn't look like her. And she's like, what are you talking about? She's like, yeah, listen, I'm gonna let you sign the documents, but I'm not gonna give you a check. Let me make a few phone calls. Let me check this out, and if everything's fine, you can come pick up the check or I'll mail it to you.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And she's like, okay. She signs everything. She comes back. She sits down, gets in the car. I'm like, what happened? She's like, you're not gonna believe what just happened. She tells me. I'm like, oh, we're done. We're done. She starts making phone calls, we're done. She can't make too many phone calls. She'll figure it out. She already thinks something wrong. She's like, yeah, but it was me. I'm like, it doesn't matter. We're not set up to make phone calls. When we've. I've rented a. It's your house that I've transferred your mortgage into. Her name or your. Your. Sorry, your title.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What if she calls you? You're gonna say, no, I didn't transfer the title. I own that house. I rented that house to that person. Like, that's just one way of many. Any phone calls, it's going to break down. So I said, yeah, yeah, we're done. We're done. And she says. She goes, well, we're done. We're. We're scrapping that. We're just driving away now. Nothing pointed to me or her. So we can drive away. They'll never catch us. And I've read the entire investigation, by the way, that they did. They never put it together.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Like, they ne. Here's how they put it together. She eventually talks to my buddy that I had opened up the other scam in Orlando. He'd already borrowed about $400,000 doing the same scam. He was. He was Mr. White, and he was a. I think it was David Silver and Mr. White to two different identities going. Borrowing multiple mortgages on the same properties. Got about 400,000. He's still going to closing. She goes to him and says, look, let me sign the check over to you. You deposit in your bank account and, you know, give us the money. I tell him not to do it. He says, nah, it'll be fine. This will be fine. So he does it. He gets arrested in the bank. Like, the bank officer, the manager calls him up and says, hey, I know you endorse this check and you were depositing it. He's like, right? He goes, but it's over a hundred thousand dollars. And we. We need any. Any checks over a hundred thousand dollars. A bank employee has to be. Be there to witness the signature, and they need to sign. We didn't see you sign this or we didn't see, see, see the person sign it or you endorse it. So. And so could you come back by now? He had to ask you to do that. And he's like, yeah, no problem. Well, the cops are waiting for him.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So he pulls in, the cops arrest him. So he gets arrested. I get him. I get him out on bond. I pay for his attorney. And it was. It wasn't even a federal case. It was a state case.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So his state attorney isn't like 50 grand or something. It's $15,000. I pay 15 grand. And then here's what's so funny about this guy. God bless him, because I still see him to this day. He. I give him 15 grand. And by the way, he's immediately already working with them. Right away, he works. He starts, absolutely. I'll tell you whatever you want to know. Just get me out of jail. He gets out of jail. I buy. I get him an attorney, and he. How hard is it for him to prove? I can tell you what's really going on. It's much bigger than me. He goes, pull Hillsborough County. Pull property appraiser's website. And they go, okay. He goes, look up the name Lee Black. They look it up. They're like, oh, yeah. He. This guy had five houses. Yeah. All of them are in foreclosure or they've been foreclosed on. They're like, huh, that's weird. Yeah. Look up the name Brandon Green. Okay. Yeah. Oh, he's got six houses. Okay. Oh, gee. All of them are in foreclosure. Look up the name James Red. And they're. They're like, green, red, black, silver. And he's like, yeah. He's like, this guy's borrowed 10, $20 million. You know, it wasn't, but he's like, 10, $20 million. He goes, and that's the guy running this whole thing, and I can give him to you. And he's all. By the way. And he's already on federal probation. They look him up. Yeah, he's on Federal probation, wire fraud, mortgage company mortgage fraud. Mortgage fraud. Absolutely. We'll have you out of here. We're going to get you out of here right now. You're going to work with the task force. So he comes to me, I don't know, he's working with the task force and what happens is I pay for an attorney 15 grand. Then he comes back a month later, he's like, look, I'm not making any money. I'm broke. I don't know what to do. I don't want to lose my house, my daughter. They're going to turn off the, they're going to turn off the lights. I need money. Absolutely. What do you need? Here's $5,000. A month later he says, I want to, I want to start a tree trimming business. But you know, I, it's, it's gonna, it's expensive to buy the equipment. About how much? I don't know. I need about 10 grand. Here's 10 grand. Comes back two weeks later, said, you know what? I need to get a truck. Let's go get your truck. Go get him a truck. A little bit later he comes back, he's like, you know what I really need? I need one of those booms that goes up. How much are those? Well, I can find a used one for about five grand. Five, of course. Here, here's five grand. Oh, I need a chipper. Chipper. What are those? They were expensive, man. They're about 10. Of course I got 10 grand. I'll give you 10 grand. Like I pay him 20 or 30, 25 to $30,000 in the next month and a half while he with. Wow.

[B]

And you still forgave him. You said you still talked to him.

[A]

He's got a daughter. He doesn't listen. In the end, you know who you owe? You owe, you owe your family. And he, he's just dealing with some scumbag. That's all I am. I'm just some scumbag who has. You can't be doing scumbag things with other scumbags and expect them to, to act honorably. True, right. Like if they were honorable persons, then you know what they would have done when they needed money? They wouldn't have turned a crime. They would have worked another job. They would have cut back on their expenses. They would have moved into their old spare room at their parents house. That's what they would do. That's what a good citizen does, not with scumbags, do. And so he gets arrested and his daughter, his, his sister's got his daughter. He doesn't want to go to prison. He doesn't have anybody to watch his daughter. What's he going to do? I cut Matt's throat. I got you, bro. I get it. I get it. So. And having seen so many people do it, by that point, I. By that point, I was ready to do it, right? Like. Well, actually not by that point. It was more like by the time I got. Finally got arrested, I'd seen the newspaper articles. There's so many articles that come out about me that I knew everybody had cooperated. And I'm thinking, like, there were people, like, for instance, you said the girlfriend. There was a girlfriend that I was dating in Tampa at this time. I gotten her into three properties, all fraud. This chick isn't even on the radar. This is. This is a chick that's going to closings and walking away with $80,000 and then renting out the property or $40,000. This is a chick. I'm paying off 20,000 of her debt. Like, I mean, I'm doing this chick a solid favor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm getting amazing properties, amazing deals, and she's walking away with the. The line share of the profits. And they're not going in foreclosure. She's renting them out and able to pay mortgages. And yet when the FBI came in and she heard I got in trouble, she grabs a friend of hers who's a lawyer and goes straight to the FBI and says, I know all kinds of stuff. I can help you.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Like, you're not on the radar. They're not even questioning you. But people did that. They came out because she knew she'd done something wrong and she thought, I need to protect myself. And she goes, immediately, that's what everybody did. It all came down to it. And the articles are coming out and the FBI is wandering around. They all started to turn over on me. And I realized, like, you're a fool if you're gonna not talk about these people who are ready to cut your throat. So what happens is my buddy is working with the task force. I'm still committing fraud. I have no idea.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And one day, a buddy of mine who's a sheriff's deputy, who I. I'd gotten about a million and change in fraudulent mortgages on.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

The sheriff, the sheriff's deputy.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

He comes in uniform at like whatever, 4:00 to my office, and he walks in. I'm like, hey, Steve, what's going on? And. And he's like, he's like, hey, can I talk to you outside? I'm like, yeah. So I walk outside, I'm like, what's up? Like, I'm kind of like, you know, like, listen, bro, everything's going great. Like, I'm dating hot chicks. It's going on vacation. I just did this. I got great cars. Like, what's up, bro? You know, I got my buddy Travis. He's taken care of. I paid his bills. He's not talking. Like, we're going to take care of that. We're going to make sure all that money gets paid back. And we're. He's not going to get it anytime. We're doing. I'm doing. Hey, what's going on? And he's like, I used to date this chick, the Tampa Police Department. I was like, okay. And he goes, she was a member of a task force that was just handed over to the FBI. I'm like, all right. And he goes, the task force was on you. He said, she came to my house this morning at like 6:00 in the morning before I went to work. And he said, and she told me that my name had come up because I was involved in some transactions that had been handed over at the title company when they served subpoenas. And I'm like, huh? And he's like, they're gonna come arrest you. And I'm like, like, what do you. He's like, no, probably. Probably take a few days, but it's definitely gonna be next week. And I was like, okay. And he goes, what are you gonna do? I said, oh, I'm leaving. I'm not. I'm going to prison. And he was like. And that's how. Just, like, delusional I was. These people. I don't have to abide by these rules. I'm going, I'm leaving. They'll. They won't catch me. And then, by the way. And you know what he said was. He was like. He started the conversation off with. With. Do you know somebody in Orlando that got arrested? I'm like, yeah. He's like, okay. So listen. So I know it's all from Travis.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm like, okay. So anyway, I. And he's like, what do I do? I go, just tell him that you're not a mortgage broker. You met me. I'm the one that set up all these loans. You thought they were perfectly legit. You're a sheriff's deputy. Like, I'm not a broker. I'm not a banker. I said, I want to buy this property. He Said he could get me a loan where I purchased the property. He'd get me money out of the. Out of the property to do renovations. That's what I did. Is that illegal? Well, yes, it is illegal. I didn't know that. Sounded perfectly legal to me. I have perfect credit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've been a sheriff's deputy for five years. I make good money. You see what I'm saying?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. And that's actually what happened. Like, he never got in trouble?

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

No, he actually quit the. Well, I think he was fired for dipping. He was caught dipping. You can't dip. Well, he was a. He was in the. He was in the. The jail. And you're not allowed to have tobacco products in the jail. And they caught him, like, three times in a row dipping. And they finally fired him. That's why he got nothing to do with me. Oh. You're not allowed to have tobacco in jails in any prisons anywhere. So here's what happens is, so I take off, I get like 80 grand, which is nothing. Right. Like, I can't live on 80 grand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know how you live, but the way I was looking, no, I can't. That's not gonna last very long. So I, I. The short version is, is that I. I take off on the run. It's actually brought a chick with me, which is a girl I've been dating. I. I was dating her about a month. She'll tell you I was dating her. We were dating two or three months. That's just not true. Okay. I'd this maybe 12 times. Yeah. @ most, couldn't been more than a month, six weeks. And I tell her I'm taking off. She begs to come with me. She comes with me. She's insane. I have no idea. She's insane. She's been on her best. You know how when you first date them for the first time, they keep crazy down. So she's bipolar. She's insane. We take off on the run. We go to Atlanta. We rent a house, and in the name of a guy named Michael. Michael Shanahan's name. I make a fake ID for Michael Shanahan. I go downtown, I satisfy the loan on his property. So now I'm Michael Shanahan living in property. Michael Shanahan's property that I've owned for 10 years. So I call three hard money lenders. Hard money lenders? Just a rich guy that lends money on the equity in your property. So it's a $200,000 house. I'm asking for 150. So you're going to. Of course he doesn't pay. I foreclose. I got a $200,000 piece of property. I'll sell it easily, get my money back. It's a win win, right? In fact, one of the victims called it a win win. So he's a win win deal. So I schedule three closings. I close all three of them at three different title companies at the same time. They, the title companies, of course, mail those documents in and they all get recorded. Nobody ever catches it. And because they don't, they don't catch it. The public records isn't set up anywhere to catch fraud. They record whatever comes to them if it's filled out correctly. And these were. So I get roughly about 400,000 roughly. Because I don't think they all let 1150151 guy let me, like whatever, 121. But after closing costs and everything, I get about 400,000. 400. Roughly 400. So, uh, I then go to Charlotte, North Carolina. We go there, we set up base there. And I go to Columbus, South Carolina. I think it's Columbus. And I go, I go there and I, I get a real estate agent to show me a couple houses. And keep in mind, I'm doing this now. I'm. Now what I've done is I've started surveying homeless people. So I'm getting their information. I'm going to the DMV and getting a driver's license in their name. So I get their information. I then order a birth certificate, their Social Security card, and I order their high school transcripts. I fill out a lease agreement, and then I go and I register to vote as them. Then I go get all those documents because I do all that online. And then I go into the local DMV and I give them the documents and say, I just moved here from Alabama. And so they, they give me a North Carolina driver's license or South Carolina ID or whatever it is. So I've got an ID in the name of a guy named Gary Sullivan, and I go buy two houses as Gary Sullivan. I put down 10 on each house. I then go downtown, and two weeks later I go downtown. After they record the, the sales and I satisfy the mortgages on them, I then go and apply for loans in this guy's name on the houses, and I borrow five mortgages on each house. So I end up borrowing like $1.3 million. Pull money out. At this point, I'm in the bank and I actually get caught in the bank. So I'm pulling out 8, 000 a day. This I got like. Let's say I got 10 accounts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that wasn't 10 accounts in one name. It was three accounts in several names. And I opened a corporation, had some bank accounts, and you have to layer it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you couldn't go right now and open up eight bank accounts today. If you went to drove it, they would flag it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Right. Probably the second one. The second or third one, you're gonna start getting some questions and you can. You can fudge those questions for the first time they ask and. But the second time it's like, listen, you've clearly opened up two other bank accounts today. Yeah, like they might open the third one. I never got a fourth one open. Anyway, so I'm dumping this money in the accounts. I'm pulling out 7,000 a day, 5,000, 8,000. Varying, you know, varying the limit. Sometimes I'm pulling out money and putting money back in the account so that. So that it doesn't just drain. Right. Like you want it to do this. Right. Like. And then they start to realize and you've got the. Have had the account open for months.

[B]

Yeah. Because there's a nine cave rule. Right.

[A]

Something over 10. Oh, well, I used to be 10. I don't know what it is now. I used to be 10.

[B]

It might still be that. I'm not sure.

[A]

Maybe they loaded it. So anyway, I do that. I'm pulling out the money. I think I get 700,000. And then one day I go into Wakowia bank and I'm waiting for the money, and the woman called the police. And the cops come up behind me and they handcuff me and they bring me into an office and they tell me they're waiting for the detective. And I find out that on one of the. One of the people that I. The banks that I had applied for the loan, it. They. They didn't. The woman went on vacation, so she didn't order the documents in time. And by the time she ordered the documents, I was already closing these other loans. So by the time her abstractor goes downtown, they don't do this anymore. Now they do it online. She went downtown, she saw three mortgages had showed up, and she went, oh, this is fraud. These are three mortgages. Like something's wrong. And they're all for basically the same amount. 180, 180, 180. And she knows she's looking for a clear title on somebody who's trying to borrow 180. So she's like, oh, something's wrong. These things and these things all close at different lenders within a day. She tells. She tells. That was BBNT Bank. BBNT Bank. She tells them they contact Wovia. Wovia has the investigation. They put a red notice on me or whatever. So I walk in, I get arrested at that bank. The cops are sitting there, but they're calling me Gary Solomon. Gary, I'm sorry, we were told to hold you. The detective comes in, he's. Hey, Gary, my name is Officer so and so. I'm a detective so and so. Mike, right? He's like, here's what's going on. He talks to me. I won't get into all the details. I know we're kind of time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he basically, I can. He says, you got three mortgages on this property. And I'm like, right? And he goes, yeah, that's any. And I went, why? And he said, well, you know, I go, is that illegal? And he went, you know, I don't know. He said, but Wachovia says it. They're upset about it. I was like, okay, well, I haven't done anything wrong. I applied for a loan here at Wachovia. And so they get Wachovia's head of Wachovia's fraud department. And we're. And he's yelling at this guy, arrest them. And there's. He's saying, what's he done? Oh, he did this. He did. He knew exactly what I did, except he thought I'm Gary Sullivan at that time. So as they're arguing, I'm like, look, I went into Wachovia, I applied for a loan. I wanted to get about. I'm trying to get about 400, 000 so that I can start buying houses and flipping them. I told the woman at wachovia, I need 400, 000. She said, I can get you 180, but I have a friend that can get you a second mortgage. And we have another friend that could probably get you a home equity line. I said, so that's what I did. Now keep on. These are all first mortgages. Yeah, but it doesn't say that on the documents. These are liens.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So Wachovia knows. He knows they're all first mortgages because he's talked to everybody else. But I'm telling the detective and. And the detective and he knows he has a first mortgage. That's why I said, I went to Wachovia, and this is what the Wachovia person because he knows he's got a first mortgage, right? And he's like, no, they're all first mortgage. I'm like, that's not true. I, I. And that's not true. I said, one's this, one's that. I don't know. I said, look, I think they have a problem with the bank. Like, I don't, I didn't have anything. I don't know what these people, what these people did. I said, I wouldn't know how to do this. I work at a labor company. And I give him my business card. Labor on demand. You can call the phone number, somebody answers. It's the whole thing. And you can go to the website. Like, he, he's like, okay, yeah. We argue back and forth, back and forth. And he eventually says, look, it, it's a scam. He's running a scam. The guy's got a fake ID. His fake ID. Look, you could tell it's fake. It starts with 00, 0. But this was a real ID issued from South Carolina Department of Motor Vehicles. And I went that. I went to their IDs. This guy's in California from Wachovia. Their ID start with 00, 0. So the detective immediately realizes, like, you're saying all kinds of shit. This wrong. You're telling me this is a fake ID? He goes, I've already run this guy through NCIC. This is an a South Carolina ID. This is our ID start with 000. And I look at him and I go, what now? I'm not Gary Sullivan. And he. And he goes, he's like, I know, Gary. I know. And I go, bro, they got a problem at the bank. And then he says, listen, I think you've got a problem at the bank. I don't think this guy's done anything wrong. So he says, I'm gonna take him downtown, let him fill out a police report, and let's see what the, the district attorney says. So he lets me follow him downtown, go inside the police department, fill out a police report, and he lets me go.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

So I leave, I go to a couple more banks and pull out some more money, jump in my car, and I leave. I get about 700,000 total out of that scam. I left 700,000. The bank. Well, I have six. About 600,000. Bank.

[B]

Oh, it's still there?

[A]

No, the, the government got it. Because the, because you have to think the FBI is there within days.

[B]

Oh, yeah, because they were on your trail at that point.

[A]

Well, they figured it out. Like the, the detective. And like, they figured out the district attorney. They figure it out and they're like, we got to call the FBI. Yeah, these, the locals don't understand. So anyway, so I go from there. I break up with the girl I'm dating. I leave her in Houston. We go to Houston, she rents an apartment downtown. And you have to listen, the places I'm staying at, like, are, these are like, you know, you're staying like, the 20th floor, 30th. Like, you know, you're driving, we're driving vehicles that are outrageous. And so I leave her, we get into a huge argument. I leave her with like $500,000. I take like $100,000 and I go to South Carolina. I'm sorry, go to Nashville. I go to Nashville and I assume the name Joseph Carter. Marion, no, Joseph Marion Carter Jr. I go by Carter. So I get a driver's license in his name, get a vehicle, get an apartment, start dating this chick, start buying houses, start recording the value of the sales. Higher. I pay the extra DOC stamps because this scam works anywhere. So I, I blow up the price. I start borrowing money. I borrow three and a half million dollars. I'm building new houses. I'm, you know, I, for a year and a half, I was there. And then my, my girlfriend at the time finds out that dateline NBC news is going to do a report on me. And by this point, I'm already the number one on the secret service's most wanted list. Wow.

[B]

Under your real identity or.

[A]

Yeah, under Matt cox.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The FBI's will inform me the secret service is looking for me. U. S. Marshals are looking for me. I'm on all of their, their wanted list. Right. But I'm number one on the secret service is most wanted list. Everybody always puts, you know, you know, FBI's most wanted, like, yeah, am I on the list? Yeah, but there's like a thousand people on the list. But everybody knows what the FBI is. They know the Secret Service is. So what happens is I, I, I borrow this money. Dateline's about to come out with a show on me. And what I do is I decide I'm going to go to Australia because Australia at the time was allowing you to come there like you didn't have to get fingerprints anymore. Like you could, you could. And keep in mind, I've got, I've had, let me just to let you know, I've had 27 driver's licenses in seven different. Issued by seven different states. I've had two dozen passports in different people's names issued by the State Department.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So I've traveled. I've. On fake passports. I've been to, you know, I've been to Bermuda, I've been to Mexico, I've been to Jamaica, I've been to Italy, I've been to Greece, I've been to Croatia. Like, I've been all around on these passports.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm going to Australia. I already had a clean passport, and what I was going to do was go there because at that time, if you showed up in Australia with, like, you only needed to have a couple hundred thousand in a business plan, and they would allow you to stay as a. As a permanent resident alien. You could not take a job, but you could open a business. Keep in mind, I'm going to go there with a few million.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And a business plan. So I'm gonna. And I have a problem. The problem is Dateline's coming out, we're planning on leaving, we're pulling out cash, and at one, we end up getting robbed.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

So we get robbed and randomly.

[B]

Or was it targeted?

[A]

I mean, I have a feeling it was one of the general. One of the contractors that was building houses, like one of his guys or something. Right. People saw me was living in a shitty neighborhood because I had. I owned all the houses around me. So instead of. I moved out of. I was living in an area called. In Nashville, called Green Hills, which is really nice. And I moved right in the middle of the ghetto because I owned all these houses and we're doing these renovations, and I renovated a house really cool. Had tons of security cameras. But we end up getting robbed. Well, I get a. So what happened was my girlfriend. We're cashing checks. We're asking laborers like, hey, bro, if I give you a check for five grand, I'll give you 500 bucks to go cash the check. And they're like, yeah, cool, no problem. They give me 4,500 bucks. So I'm doing this constantly. So we get a little. Little pile of money and we get robbed. Did somebody know the money was there? I don't know. But we lose a bunch of money. And they didn't get all of it, but they locked. Got a bunch of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what happens is we are now staying at another place, but I'm at the office a couple days later, I get a phone call from the police department, and they said, can you meet us at your house? So what had happened was my girlfriend had asked a friend of hers to cash, like $30,000 worth of checks. Like, she gave him a bunch of them for like five grand a piece. Right. And during that conversation, she ended up saying, what's going on? And she said, look, this Carter's real name is Matthew Cox. He's wanted, and we're going to Australia. We need to pull out a bunch of cash. Now, obviously she didn't realize her friend was gonna, you know, she's. She's a young girl.

[B]

Stupid.

[A]

But it was stupid for me to have not left when she found out who I was. But point is, is that, you know, I was in love. You know, you're stupid when you're in love. So. And, and you know, and I. That's, that's. And that's certainly not the dumbest thing I've done. So tells her friend, her friend calls, a Secret Service, negotiates a ten thousand dollar reward.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

I know. It's embarrassing, right? Yeah. It's not humiliating. So they watch the house for three days, but we're not staying there because there had been a robbery and we didn't want to be in that neighborhood anymore. We're already put like 15 grand down. Another house that we're gonna buy in back in Green Hills.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we're staying in a hotel. So. But I'm at work and the police call and say, hey, look, we need to get a copy of those surveillance cameras of the, of the robbery. I'm like, no problem. So I go, I'll meet you there right now. So they. I'll be there in like five minutes. So I jump in my car, in my truck, I drive down there, I pull up, I hop out of the car. I'm walking towards the, the house, and all of a sudden the cars pull up, the. The SUVs, they jump out. Secret Service, get on the ground, get on the ground. The whole thing. And I'm just like. I get on the ground, they handcuff me, they get me up, they come up to me with the photo of me and they're.

[B]

Because you got the place, the surgery on your face.

[A]

Yeah, I've got, I've had a nose job, a mini facelift. I had my teeth done. I had two hair transplants. I mean, I'm basically bald. You know, this is all hair from the back of my head.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

So how old do you then?

[B]

28.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Just wait, bro. It's all downhill from here on out. It's all down. This is the best you will ever look. Damn. Yeah, it's over. Well, no, it's probably about 35. Yeah, you got a few more years.

[B]

I'll enjoy it.

[A]

Just prepare. So, yeah, so they arrest me, they throw me in jail, and. And I end up getting. How do you wanna. Where are we on time? You wanna. Got like 10 minutes left. Oh, okay. So the quick version is that, you know, like, I cooperate, the FBI comes to see me, Secret Service comes to see me. But by that point, what can I tell them? It's been three years. All of my buddies have already told on me. They already have an entire case.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so I end up pleading guilty because I am extremely guilty. And their whole thing was, look, we're gonna. You plead guilty, get sentenced, and we're gonna go arrest. We're gonna make cases against all these guys. Okay, great. So, you know, because they have. They. And I just have to sit there and say, yeah, they basically know what happens. They just don't know who's involved. Exactly. And most of these guys have been like, oh, this is what he did. But I wasn't involved. And it's like, no, no, no. If you look like. And they already know that. A lot of that's right. Like, if you didn't weren't involved, then why did a hundred thousand dollars go into Europe? Why did you make $50,000? Why was your broker fee 30 grand? You know what I'm saying? Like, you were involved. They just need somebody to say, yeah, he was involved. And then everybody else is going to roll on each other, which they're already rolling on each other anyway. So. Not that I wouldn't have cut everybody's throat, no matter what, at that point. I don't know. I'm not trying to justify it. Like, I'm ready to do anything I have to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The point is, is that I plead guilty, I get 26 years. Well, at the same time, I'm pleading guilty. This is late 2007 now. You've heard of the 2008 financial crisis? Well, it starts in. Everybody's like, oh, yeah, in 2008. No, no, the banks were already failing in 2007. 2008 is when they passed TARP.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I get sentenced when every article is about mortgages and fraud and I get sentenced, I get 26 years. But I'm thinking I'm going to be okay because even though I showed up, by the way, when I showed up, I'm. My lawyer's telling me you're going to get 12 to 14 years. Yeah, that's not what the judge had agreed on. So the judge is like, not 26 years and four months, to be honest. 26 years and four months. I just don't usually say the four months because it sounds like I'm whining. So I get 26 years and four months, I go to prison. Years go by, they don't arrest anybody, nobody gets in trouble. And I'm going, wait a minute, you guys are supposed to build cases. And then you were going to reduce my sentence. Yeah, that never happens. And I'm going, by the way, the girl that I had left, she'd been caught already. She got five years. And as soon as I got caught, they reduced her sentence down to 30 months.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So they cut hers like in half. So she ends up getting going to a halfway house. She does two years. So I got 26 years. And keep in mind, they, they asked me to do multiple things. They asked me to do like Dateline NBC. They asked me to be interviewed by Dateline, which I was. And they said, well, we will consider that substantial assistance is what they call cooperation. We'll consider that substantial assistance and we'll reduce your sentence. Okay, so I do Dateline and then when I go to close, I go to sentencing, we go, hey, aren't you going to give us something for Dateline? And they go, yeah, well, we thought about it and it's not enough.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Well, yeah, but you said you'd consider it substantial assistance. And they go, we did consider it and it's not enough. Damn. So then American Greed contacts me after I've been sent and said, we want to interview you and we contact the U.S. attorney. They say, absolutely do that. So we do it. They go, we'll consider substantial assistance. We do it. They air it. We go, okay, you did it. And they go, it's just not enough. Then I'm approached by a mortgage, sorry, mortgage school to do an, to write an ethics and fraud course. Right? Because I'm a mortgage broker, a licensed mortgage broker who was committing fraud. Like I'm a perfect person. And I've committed every fraud, mortgage style fraud there is. So I write this and this guy goes up to Atlanta, my lawyer goes, we get a solid agreement with the U.S. attorney, we do the course. They start using it all over the place to teach the nation is being you, it's being used. This course is written by me, about me. We go to them and say, we want you to reduce our sentence. You said you'd reduce the sentence. And I go, it's just not enough. So I finally end up filing a 2255 with a guy in prison who's a disbarred attorney. It's too long of a story to explain what a lunatic this guy is, but he's amazing. He files the paperwork, by the way. I'd also contacted multiple attorneys on the street and asked them to please, to help me get my sentence reduced. I'll pay you, I'll whatever. And I have no money, but I figure I can beg, borrow, and steal a little bit of money. Every one of them said, there's no way to force the government to reduce your sentence. It's already. It's a. It's a done deal. It's nothing we can do. It's on the books. This guy says, I disagree. I think I can get him to do it. He files a 2255. He argues for six months, and eventually they agree to reduce my sentence. They bring me back to court, the judge gives me five years off my sentence. No, what am I saying? Did I just say five years? Yeah, seven years off my sentence. Sorry. So they give me seven years off my sentence, I go back to prison. I still got about eight or nine years to go. I've already been locked up, like, seven years at this point. Seven or eight years to go. Walking around the compound with this guy who's a con man. His name is Ron Wilson. Ron Wilson ran a $100 million Ponzi scheme where he stole $57 million of banks. I'm sorry, churches and pension funds from churches and pension funds and retirees. It's not a nice guy. He's in the middle of cooperating against his codefendants, and we're walking around the compound and he keeps telling me, ah, they're not going to reduce my sentence. They're going to me. They're going to me. I'm like, yeah, well, then we'll get Frank to file something. Frank's the lawyer that helped me, said, we'll get Frank to file something. Ah, you don't understand. They think I've hidden Ponzi scheme money. I'm like, well, you haven't. So, you know, don't worry about it. They'd have to prove that to. To use that to withhold a reduction. You're cooperating. They've been rest. They're arresting these guys. You're about to go to trial. These guys are going to trial. Like, you're. You're good. And he's like, ah, you don't understand. You don't understand. So we. This goes on for a month or so, and then one day I go, you Keep saying this, bro. Like, he's. I don't. And he goes, can I trust you? Can I tell you something? I went, yeah. And he goes, can I trust you? And I go, probably not. Like, I just got back from, like, I've done told everybody I want out of here. Yeah. Guys would come up to me in the Chow Law haul, right? Or anywhere, and they go, hey, Cox, how much time you got? And I go, Well, I got 26 years, but somebody might up and tell me where there's a body. I could be out of here next month. You know what I'm saying? And they'd go. And they'd go, oh, damn, bro. It's like that. I go, it's exactly like that. Oh, man, you snitch on a. In a heartbeat. I'm not here to make friends. I don't want to be friends. I want to go home. And. And. And they were like, damn, that's up. And they'd walk off. So knowing, by the way, that like, 90 of all the inmates in the federal system have cooperated, by the way, about 100 are lying. They'll all tell you. They're. They're. You know. You know, I can tell you. I mean, guys, I've have come on my show, gone through the whole story, never mentioned cooperating, but I'm. I know you were caught with three, you know, three. Three kilos of heroin, which is like a 20 year sentence.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yet you had a good lawyer and got seven years. And then afterwards, I'm like, you know, they're like, yo, bro, I saw that. That look you gave. I was like, right? I'm like, well, I said, you know, none of my business. If that's what you want to tell people, that's none of my business. And they're like, yeah, bro, listen, I cooperated. I just don't want it out there. I. I'm like, no, I get it. I get it. And they're like, I know you get it. You don't give a. You know, but that happens all the time. Like, I've got, like, these guys will. Like, they're all cooperating. They just don't want to say it. So I'm honest, because as a true sociopath, like, I don't give a. What's. What. You know, your opinion of me means about as much as that stick of furnitures. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So. And I. You know, and I. I think I told Ian Bick this. I said I had to. I figured out a long time ago I Had to make a choice. It was between your. The. Well, not you, but the respect of a bunch of criminals or my freedom. And I choose my freedom. So what happens is I'm walking around with this guy, Ron Wilson, and he says, yeah. He says, can I trust you? I go, probably not. And he goes. He kind of chuckles and he says, I did hide Ponzi scheme money. I was like, really? He's like, yeah. He's like, my wife has $150,000, and my brother's got, like, maybe 20 or 30,000 he's holding for me. But my fear is that my wife. His wife had found out he was. Have. Had. Had Been having an affair. She's just going to turn it into me. And I go, she's not going to do that. She's already lied to the FBI and said she didn't have anything. Well, actually, his was a Secret Service. Yeah, she's already lied about that. She's not gonna do that. She'd get charged. He's like, oh, you don't understand. She's crazy. Okay. So about a month later, I have to call my lawyer because I was writing a memoir. Because I wrote a memoir, and I was. And I'd written a memoir, but I wanted to update my memoir about my sentence and getting reduced, so I asked for my transcript. So. But my lawyer never sent them to me, right. It'd been like, three months now. So I call my lawyer, said, listen, you didn't send me the transcript. She's like, oh, Matt, I'm sorry. I never. I called the woman. I got this. I'll get. I'll get them. I'll send them to. Okay. She's. What's going on? I went, what do you mean? Nothing's going. She has nothing happening in there. I went, like, what? Like this woman never wanted to talk to me before, you know? I was like, well, about what? And she goes, I don't know. Anything you want to talk about? It was so weird. And I went, well, yeah, listen to this. And I tell her what happened with Ron, and she goes, let me look into it. Might be something there. I went, okay. They didn't want to give me anything the first time when I deserved it. I don't think they're going to give me anything. For recouping what, less than $200,000?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For a guy that you're using as a witness. You don't want to find out he's. You don't want to find out he's. He's no good. Right. You find out that you can't use him as a witness.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that doesn't help them. They don't want to believe any of that. You know, that's. I know this is going nowhere, but a week later, I get called by SIS which is internal security for the prison, and they go, hey, come here. You got to talk to somebody. And they got. They got a super service agent on the phone. So I go, what's going on? He's like, I understand, you know, where there's hidden Ponzi scheme money. I said, well, you know, so we. I said, I need an agreement. So we get something in writing again, which I know is basically useless. But then I. Eventually I. After we go back and forth a little bit over the next week or two, I tell him what's going on. This is what he said. They end up bringing the wife in. She turns in $350,000.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

The brother comes in. He gives them another 150,000 in cash. So it's cash and. And. And precious metals. It's half a million dollars. They indict both of them. They both get probation, by the way. They re indict Wilson. He gets six months added onto a sentence. They don't want to give me anything.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I had a letter that says, we will reduce your sentence if we recoup money or in an indictment. They don't want to honor it. They go, it wasn't enough. It wasn't you. So Frank files another 2255s, fights with him for another six months. He gets another five years knocked off my sentence.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

By the time the second five years gets knocked off, I got, like, 18 months to go, so. 18. Well, really, in about a year later, I'm in the halfway house. So I got seven months of halfway house. I go to a halfway house. I'm in seven months, a halfway house. I save my money for seven months. I get out, and I get out and I start a podcast. You know, so, yeah, I. About a year after I got out of the halfway house, I started this podcast. And it's. You know, I got like, 500,000 subscribers. It's doing great. I also, while I was locked up, I wrote a bunch of true crime books, which I've optioned the rights to the true crime books. I optioned the rights to my story. It's never been. It's never been made. It gets optioned. It gets optioned. It gets up nothing.

[B]

I'm sure one of these days, someone will pick it up.

[A]

Yeah, that'd be nice. You know, but let's listen, to be honest, if it never happens, I'm okay. Like, of course it'd be great if it did happen, but let's face it. Like, I should be in prison right now. Like, I'm thrilled at where my life is right now. Like, I. I've been absolutely blessed, and I'm. I'm so overwhelmingly lucky. And. Well, here's what's funny. You know, almost every one of the people that cooperated against me or went to prison, and everybody that went to prison, by the way, because two people did go to prison. Both of them still talk to me.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

You know, one of them's name is Allison. She still talks to me. A guy named Eric, he still talks to me. Actually, my buddy Travis still talks to me.

[B]

Yeah, it's a happy ending for you guys.

[A]

Yeah, Like, I get it. Like, I. I hear you. I got no reason to be, you know, upselling, man.

[B]

Where can people find the pod?

[A]

Oh, yeah. You know, it's YouTube. It's. It's inside True Crime. It's Matthew Cox inside True Crime. And it's on same thing. It's. All the platforms are Inside True crime. It's our TikTok. We'll link it below.

[B]

Man. Thanks for coming on. Can't wait to do a part two with you. That was awesome.

[A]

Yeah. When I come back.

[B]

Yeah, check them out, guys. We'll link below. See you next time.