From Last Pick to Elite: How I Became a Top Ultra Runner | Harvey Lewis DSH #950

Summary

Digital Social Hour: Episode #950 - "From Last Pick to Elite: How I Became a Top Ultra Runner" with Harvey Lewis

Release Date: December 5, 2024

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Introduction

In episode #950 of the Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly welcomes Harvey Lewis, a seasoned ultra runner, entrepreneur, and dedicated teacher. With an impressive resume of competing in over 100 ultra races across 107 countries, Harvey shares his transformative journey from being the last pick on sports teams to becoming one of North America's top ultra runners. The conversation delves into topics ranging from the mental and physical demands of ultra running to insights on education, nutrition, and personal growth.

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Early Beginnings and Discovery of Running

Harvey opens up about his initial foray into running during his teenage years, highlighting a pivotal moment that shifted his life's trajectory.

• Persistence and Transformation:

  "This is back when I was like, 15, 14, actually 13. Jumped into a marathon when I was in high school. And that moment just really changed my life because I discovered that if you're persistent, you can do anything on this planet."
  [00:02] Harvey Lewis

Despite not having immediate success—often finishing races at the back—Harvey emphasizes the importance of persistence and developing the right training formula over decades.

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Evolution into Ultra Running

Transitioning from marathons to ultras, Harvey reflects on the growth of ultra running as a sport and its profound impact on personal development.

• Definition and Growth of Ultras:

  "Ultra is any race further than a marathon."
  [03:01] Harvey Lewis

He notes the exponential growth in ultra running participation since the 1990s, now encompassing races up to 200 miles and innovative formats like backyard ultras, where runners compete until only one remains.

• Inner Core and Mental Fortitude:

  "It removes all the layers that we have and it gets you to your inner core. You discover what your purpose is."
  [03:29] Harvey Lewis

Harvey discusses how ultra running strips away superficialities, forcing runners to confront their limits and discover their deeper motivations.

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Challenges and Triumphs in Ultra Running

Harvey shares gripping accounts of some of his most challenging races and the lessons learned from them.

• Badwater 135 Experience:

  "I run 135 miles from the Badwater Basin to the portal, Mount Whitney... without that crew, like you wouldn't be able to."
  [04:41] Harvey Lewis

Participating in notoriously tough races like Badwater 135, Harvey highlights the critical role of support crews in enduring extreme conditions.

• World Record Achievement:

  "My best was last year I ran and set the world record... run like 250 miles in four and a half days."
  [07:00] Harvey Lewis

At 48 years old, Harvey set a world record in one of the most demanding ultra races, showcasing that age is no barrier with the right mindset and training.

• Backyard Ultra and Resilience:

  "People were going to the point where they just were total fatigued and couldn't walk back to their tent."
  [06:52] Harvey Lewis

In backyard ultra races, Harvey emphasizes mental resilience, focusing solely on the immediate task rather than the daunting total distance.

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Nutrition: The Vegan Edge

A significant portion of Harvey's success is attributed to his strict vegan diet, which he has adhered to since 1996.

• Benefits of a Plant-Based Diet:

  "I eat all vegan foods... our obsession with animal protein and sugary foods is really what's killing Americans."
  [12:59] Harvey Lewis

Harvey argues that a vegan diet enhances recovery and performance, citing examples of top ultra runners like Jim Walmsley who thrive on plant-based nutrition.

• Overcoming Challenges While Traveling:

  "I always bring a couple snacks with me in my bags... I pulled up on my phone... I'm not gonna eat this stuff."
  [16:03] Harvey Lewis

His disciplined approach to nutrition extends to international travels, where he seeks out healthy options despite limited availability.

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Teaching Career and Educational Insights

Beyond running, Harvey serves as a teacher, imparting financial literacy and AP Government to high school students. He offers a unique perspective on education, blending his athletic discipline with his teaching philosophy.

• Integrating Character and Curriculum:

  "I think with teaching today is like, I don't only think about my curriculum... trying to help kids grow into whatever dreams they wish to pursue."
  [44:03] Harvey Lewis

Harvey emphasizes the importance of character development alongside academic instruction, striving to nurture well-rounded individuals.

• Advocating for Financial Literacy:

  "Every single state must have financial literacy in their curriculum. It's as important as health."
  [52:05] Harvey Lewis

He passionately advocates for mandatory financial education in schools, believing it equips students with essential life skills.

• Challenges in Public Education:

  "A lot of kids come to school with chips and soda... how can you learn math without adequate nutrition?"
  [69:10] Harvey Lewis

Harvey critiques the nutritional shortcomings in schools, linking poor diet to diminished academic performance and overall well-being.

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Mental Health and Personal Growth

Harvey intertwines his experiences as an ultra runner and an educator to discuss the broader themes of mental health and personal development.

• Therapeutic Aspects of Running:

  "Running home, it's gone... It's like meditation."
  [61:10] Harvey Lewis

For Harvey, running serves as a form of meditation, helping him maintain emotional balance and resilience both in races and in the classroom.

• Overcoming Personal Struggles:

  "That marathon changed everything for me because I found the formula. Persistence and work ethic can achieve anything."
  [63:43] Harvey Lewis

Reflecting on his academic struggles, Harvey credits his running journey for instilling the persistence and work ethic that transformed his life.

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Contemporary Issues in Education and Society

The conversation shifts to current debates surrounding education policy, curriculum content, and societal misconceptions.

• Curriculum Debates and Misinformation:

  "I don't understand how banning AP African American History would injure students' feelings."
  [50:00] Harvey Lewis

Harvey expresses confusion over recent legislative actions targeting educational content, advocating for comprehensive and truthful historical education.

• Impact of Nutrition on Learning:

  "Kids need adequate nutrition to excel academically and mentally."
  [69:10] Harvey Lewis

He links proper nutrition to enhanced cognitive function and academic success, urging systemic changes in school meal programs.

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Future Goals and Closing Thoughts

As the episode nears its end, Harvey and Sean discuss future aspirations and the ongoing pursuit of excellence.

• Podcasting Milestones:

  "I want to break the world record for the number of podcast episodes... top three on Apple for overall shows."
  [65:05] Sean Kelly

Sean shares his ambitious goals for his rapidly growing podcast, aiming for widespread recognition and influence.

• Longevity and Continuous Improvement:

  "I’ve been running for almost 28 years and I'm still looking to compete at the highest level."
  [68:02] Harvey Lewis

Harvey emphasizes the importance of continual self-improvement and adapting strategies to maintain peak performance over the decades.

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Conclusion

Episode #950 of Digital Social Hour offers an inspiring deep dive into Harvey Lewis's life as an elite ultra runner and educator. His unwavering dedication, vegan lifestyle, and commitment to personal and professional growth serve as a testament to what persistence and passion can achieve. The conversation not only highlights the grueling aspects of ultra running but also underscores the critical interplay between physical health, mental resilience, and educational advocacy.

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Notable Quotes:

• "If you're persistent, you can do anything on this planet."
  [00:02] Harvey Lewis

• "Ultra running removes all the layers and gets you to your inner core."
  [03:29] Harvey Lewis

• "Movement is critical, whether that's swimming, yoga, walking."
  [12:53] Harvey Lewis

• "The world’s obsession with animal protein and sugary foods is what's killing Americans."
  [12:59] Harvey Lewis

• "Persistence and work ethic can achieve anything."
  [63:43] Harvey Lewis

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of Harvey Lewis's insights and experiences as shared on Digital Social Hour, providing listeners with a vivid portrayal of the journey from humble beginnings to elite status in ultra running, intertwined with meaningful reflections on education and personal well-being.

Transcript

[A]

What drew you to love running so much?

[B]

This is back when I was like, 15, 14, actually 13. Jumped into a marathon when I was in high school. And that moment just really changed my life because I discovered that if you're persistent, you can do anything on this planet.

[A]

All right, guys, Harvey Lewis here today. Been to 107 countries, right?

[B]

Yes, yes. It's been an amazing adventure across life.

[A]

Ran hundreds of miles in all, I assume, right?

[B]

Yeah, well, not all of them, but I, I, I've seen some places and, and I was talking to your wife out in the lobby. I mean, we're like, sharing some stories about Bolivia and La Salta de Uni.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Your fiance. I'm sorry.

[A]

Right. Yeah. Getting married next year.

[B]

So that's exciting.

[A]

Yeah, pretty much my wife at this point.

[B]

Yeah. I just got married myself. My, my, my fiance before my wife. We were together for 10 years. So how long have you guys been together?

[A]

Seven years.

[B]

Seven years. Very similar.

[A]

Very similar. Yeah. So what drew you to love running so much?

[B]

Man, I start off and I was like the very last person to ever be picked on teams. I was growing up, I was like, chunking Goonies. And somewhere it hit me that I just started, like, running for training for football, and I ended up, like, going out for the football team and being like, third string defensive tackle. But I like the training and all the fitness elements to it and pushing myself. So this is back when I was like 15, 14, actually 13, and I jumped into a marathon when I was in high school, and that moment just really changed my life because I've discovered that so much in this world is a matter of how much persistence you have. And if you're persistent, you can do anything on this planet.

[A]

Nice. So you like the results you saw from your training and your persistence?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I was still finishing towards the back of the pack.

[A]

Oh, really? So at 15, you weren't?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I was. I never won a race in high school.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

In fact, I normally finished towards the back, and when I ran the marathon, it took me five years to break five hours. Damn marathon.

[A]

So you had terrible genetics.

[B]

Yeah, well, I wouldn't say I had terrible genetics, but I would say I didn't have, I didn't, like, have the, the formula.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I've learned the formula across decades.

[A]

Got it. Because now people are running marathons in, like two and a half hours, right?

[B]

Oh, faster than that. Like, I mean, the world record is like two hours and two minutes.

[A]

Holy crap.

[B]

I mean, it's like we've had. Yeah, it's pretty incredible. I mean, they just keep on pushing it lower and lower.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Uh, but yeah, I got into running pretty young and I, I discovered ultras when I was actually 19 years of age and I've been doing ultras for now, 20, 28 years.

[A]

So an Ultra is two marathons. Right.

[B]

And ultra is any race further than a marathon.

[A]

Oh, further than.

[B]

So I mean, in this country, they've exploded. So I mean, when I first started ultras back in the 90s, there were fewer than like 5% of the people doing them today. So it's, it's grown by like exponentially. And now there's like, you have a hundred mile races, you have 200 mile races, you have backyard ultras that go have no finish line. You keep, you keep going to the last person standing.

[A]

That's cool.

[B]

Yeah. And it's, I love the sport because it is, it, it really brings you to. It removes all the layers that we have and it gets you to your inner core. You. You discover what your purpose is. What, what your. Why is. I. I feel like a, a closeness with like when you're in that moment of like complete and utter like challenges. Sometimes people refer to it as like suffering or pain. I don't really like to think of it that way, but it really causes you to like, dig into your inner side and like think about what is important in the world to you.

[A]

Wow. Yeah. Because you're on your own. It's a very individual sport.

[B]

It is. It isn't. It isn't. Like there are times like where you have a crew and like your crew is like your, your team. Like they basically like for example, in Death Valley, I run a race that Goggins popularized called Badwater 135. You basically run 135 miles from the Badwar Basin to the portal, Mount Whitney.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And you have a crew that follows you every mile, like in a vehicle or mile or two and they hand off like ice or drinks. And so I mean, without that crew, like you wouldn't be able to like.

[A]

That'D be tough, right? Cuz that's six marathons.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So it, it's like a lot of times there is a crew and like.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a [e-mail] DSH and get on your way, becoming your best self. My fiance Arielle plays a big role in my mental health, helping me realize my true potential. Everyone's trying their best around you, so take time to appreciate someone Close to you. I've tried therapy in the past and it helped me go through some tough times. When I was in college dealing with mental health, I was on prescription medication. I actually had agoraphobia when I was in college and therapy helped me figure out some answers to how to fix that problem. For two months I couldn't even leave my house or I would have a full on panic attack. So I love companies like BetterHelp that can get therapy in front of the masses. But therapy definitely helped me get better. And I definitely appreciate companies like BetterHelp because it's completely online and it's conveniently suited to fit your schedule and accommodate life surprises. Fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a licensed therapist today with the freedom to switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Visit betterhelp.comDSH to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.hp.comDSH check them out now.

[B]

Other times you have even like teammates. Like I've been on the USA team for the 24 hour race where you're running for 24 hours. I've done that five times and I've been on the, the backyard, in the backyard world championship team five times for the usa. So for that like the last one we did, I ran like 316 miles. I had teammates. We were, I was pacing our teammates. They were, we were each like supporting each other with like positive energy. And like sometimes someone would like, would like be just falling back and falling asleep like as they're running and I'm like have to grab them and say like we're going man. So it's not always like an individual sport.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

You have like races where you are teamed up with people too.

[A]

316 miles. You ran that in how long?

[B]

That race is a race where you have to do 4.167 miles every hour. So it adds up to 100 miles every day. And so that was like three days and, and four hours. Yeah. But my, my best was last year I ran and set the world record of or the. On the biggest course for running four and a half days, 250 miles. And it was a really, I mean if you know the UFC fighting gets a lot of attention. But honestly I'd say like ultras are, are, are, are even could be even more badass and require more toughness than even surviving like in the ufc. Because with that, with, with that, I mean you're running like non stop practically. You, you, if you finish your, your loop within your 4.167 miles faster than an hour. You have whatever time that is to the, to this. So you might get, like, if you finish in like 50 minutes, you get 10 minutes to like, lay down to like, eat whatever you can and then restart the loop at the top of the hour. And like, I mean, you lose toenails. You have blisters that you have to, like, sometimes pierce. You're like. You have to fight through sleep deprivation for that race. I didn't sleep for the first three days, and then the fourth day, I was like, fourth night I started sleeping, like, just like one minute, two minutes because I was finishing my laps with 55 minutes. I only had five minutes to reset and get going again.

[A]

Holy.

[B]

So it was. It was really wild. And there were 75 other people that were like, world or there were champions of their own countries who didn't want to give up either. So it was like a wild experience, like, last person standing. I mean, people were going to, like, the point where they just were total fatigued and they couldn't walk back to or tent, like, and it's. It's really wild because you get into like, this mental aspect of your mind and your body and you're able to push beyond where you think you could, like, in so much limits us by what we think we can do versus what we actually can do. You know, we are our greatest strength and our greatest challenge. You know, if we, if we believe we. We can't do something, that's the heart of it. You're never going to be able to do it. But with that particular race, I always focus only on the lap I'm on. And I never think, like, oh, I've got 200 more miles to go. Like, I've just focused on, like, doing that very lap I'm on, and that's it.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And eating a lot of food. Yeah, you gotta eat a ton of food.

[A]

So you were just staying in the present.

[B]

Just staying in the present.

[A]

Because if you thought about the 200 miles you had to run, you probably would have gone crazy.

[B]

No, you have to really break it down into, like, that, that particular hour. Like, you just have to focus on, like, the next tree, the next mile, and focus on what are you excited about when you get to finish with that lap.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You got. And it's, it's simple, simple stupid stuff. Like, I'm excited. I'm gonna get like, some Coca Cola. I'm excited. I'm gonna, like, get.

[A]

You drank Coca Cola?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I do, like, during the race.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's really lots of calories. Caffeine. I usually don't drink it until, like, the second day because I don't want to, like, use any caffeine the first night. Like, okay, make it through the first night without any caffeine. And then like the second, third, fourth night beyond, like, having some caffeine is helpful. So I, I like to mix up my drinks. Like, I have, like, probably a dozen different drinks I like to have, but it's one I have.

[A]

That's impressive, man. And you won that race at 48. I'm assuming a lot of the competition was younger than you, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I won the race at 48. And. And you know, I think it. You is really interesting. Like, one of the statements, you. You said, go for it. You remember what you said in the lobby?

[A]

Oh, is running this much bad for you because you're running hundreds of miles? Like, is that actually bad for the body?

[B]

Right? Well, no, I would say yes. And like, that you can accomplish, like. And actually what you were saying, a lot of you were saying, is running bad for you, like, period.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, and I would say, like, a lot of people don't understand. They assume that running is bad for you, but, like, there's running. It can be excellent for you, but it depends where you're at. So, I mean, for me, I don't have any pains at all. And that's kind of crazy. Like, I'm 48 and I just ran 316 miles few weeks ago yesterday, I ran up and down a mountain in Death Valley. I ran twice yesterday. I ran this morning, like 10K in. In Vegas. I don't have any aches on my body. None. And so much of it has to do with, like, what I eat, also what I, What I do with my recovery. And like, those are huge elements. So for. For ultras, on the other hand, I'd say, yeah, if you're running like a thousand miles, it might. It might not be the greatest thing. You could achieve the same goals by going out, run 5, 10k, you know, 20k half marathon. Like, absolutely. Even running one or two miles are amazing. But I think number one is just like, movement. Like, people need movement in their body. Finding something that you enjoy doing that you're passionate about is. Is critical, whether that's swimming, yoga, walking. So, yeah, it's not like I expect. I'm. I'm trying to think everyone should be a runner. Like, not at all. But running is also can be good for you. If you, you take good care of your body in terms of what you're eating, in terms of like doing other things in addition to running, like it's, you can do amazing stuff with running.

[A]

Yeah. Well, there's a lot of evidence that your VO2 max levels coordinate with longevity these days.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's. Well, you know, I have a friend who's 102, Mike Fremont, and we met running and he's still, he, he is 102. So he was running really up to 100 the last couple years. His run is more of a walk. But we still say we're going out for a run and it's pretty impressive that he's able to do that. You know, a lot of it for me honestly has been my nutrition. So I eat all vegan foods. Like I've been doing that since I've been vegetarian since 1996.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. And I mean I heard like one year like recent guests, Billy Carson. Yeah. He said like a vegan diet almost killed me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, that just drives me crazy. Because honestly in America today, really our obsession with like animal protein and, and also like sugary foods is really what's killing Americans. And so from. I feel like people ought to really do their own research and get more into it, looking at like actually quality sources of, of evidence. And I don't expect every American to become a vegan. But the big deal is, is that if you can like move your, your nutrition more in that direction. So maybe like every morning for breakfast, like my friend Jesse Itzler, he only has like fruits and like simple like plant based things at the beginning of the day all the way up through midday or incorporate a couple of days a week where you're eating something vegan or like just looking at what you're eating in terms of what your nutrition is, like if you are eating meat, like are you eating, is that your main go to in your plate? It's kind of interesting because in America we've been so conditioned through like the media or not the media but like marketing to, to think that we need to have some meat with every meal.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's like there's a lot of inflammation with like dairy, for example, the dairy industry has, I'm a teacher and like even in schools you, you can't even serve a plant based milk because of the influence of the dairy industry. Really? Usda. Yes. So I mean there, there's some really big shifts that I hope are going to be happening also in schools. But you're Seeing in a grocery store, like, half of the, like, possible things that people are drinking now are, like, oat milk, almond milk, and it makes up almost half of, like, what is sold in the grocery store today. And, like, when people start thinking about it, like, and learning more about what really, this milk is designed to make a small calf, you know, a. A gigantic animal. And you can get the same benefits of, like, oat milk by drinking, like, it has, like, the same proteins, calcium, vitamin D, those kinds of things, and you don't get the inflammation that you get in the dairy. So, I mean, I. I started this in the 90s, and I'm seeing a major shift in the last 25 years in our country and around the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's nice to see that from my. My vantage point. But then I also hear, like, your. Your guests coming on saying, like, I think that probably what happened, a lot of people, they. They may just eat. Only I've never heard anyone having any issue unless they're not eating enough calories or they're only eating, like, cheese pizza at every meal. So, you know, if you're not diversifying yourself to a degree or, like, educating yourself with anything, you could. You could have, like, not do as well as you would do otherwise.

[A]

Yeah. I was reading the comments. That one really blew up. Had like, 8, 000 comments, right? Yeah. He travels a lot, so it could have been just an issue of it's hard to eat healthy when you're traveling, too.

[B]

Yeah. And so that's one of the things when. I think really helps, actually, also when you're, like, dedicated to. To eating a certain way. Nutrition, for me, like, traveling, I traveled to 107 countries, and what I do is I always bring a couple snacks with me in my bags, and then it also. It causes me to, like, search out better foods. So, for example, when I was in the Azores, I was on this small little island, and, like, the first place I went into, all they had was, like, burgers and fries. And I, like, pulled up on my phone. I'm like, I'm not gonna eat this stuff. Obviously, there's no. Nothing I can eat here. So it caused me to go to another place. It was, like, a kilometer away, and, like, they had amazing, like, vegetable soup and, like, some vegetable, like, paninis and, like, all sorts of great things that wouldn't have gotten. Had I just been, like, lazy about or I hadn't been, like, focused or dedicated to nutrition.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it's like, it causes you to. You learn a lot. I mean, There's a lot of, like, there's a lot of. It's a. It's far more easier today than it ever was before, but when you dedicate yourself to it, you. You start to, like, you find where these things are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's all, there's apps, there's all kinds of ways that.

[A]

Seed Oil Scout's a good app. Yeah, I love that app. Have you seen that one?

[B]

No.

[A]

So it tells you if the restaurant is using seed oils or not.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, Yeah.

[B]

I, I've only heard a little. I saw a billboard up yesterday.

[A]

Oh, they had a billboard.

[B]

Yeah, some, some. There was a billboard about the seed oil.

[A]

Oh, oh, I saw that one. Yeah. In Vegas.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That Mexican restaurant. Yeah. Are you big on seed oils? Like, do you have opinion?

[B]

No, I'm not. I. The only thing I've. I've personally like, saw some stuff on online about seed oils, like in relationship to the sun, like.

[A]

Oh, sunburn. Right?

[B]

Sunburn, yeah. If you have anything to add about that.

[A]

No, I've seen that. Yeah. If you eat seed oils, there's a greater chance you get sunburned, basically, something like that. I can relate to that. I mean, I used to get sunburned a lot when I was eating really bad, so maybe there's something to it, but who knows?

[B]

I don't know. Yeah, it's just one of those things. Like, I feel like that there needs to be some, like, research. Like, people need to look at, like, legitimate sources.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, with seed oils, like, I don't think that, like, I definitely, like, think that there's some benefits or disadvantages in looking at that. But, but like, yeah, I saw a lot of misinformation online about, well, people get skin cancer because of like, seed oils or something like that. And I just feel like that's something that is important to like, you look at the science behind.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like. Yeah. So I mean, I, I go to a dermatologist and like, you know, we. I, I personally, I'm in the sun, like in like, for example, Death Valley.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All this sun exposure and I feel it's really important to. You'll also just be mindful, like, to cover up from the sun. Like, I mean, I still get out there. I love the sun, but I also don't be oblivious to like, that the sun does cause cancer to people. I mean, if you're in Australia, you're going to get really messed up.

[A]

Oh, man. I went there and my skin was peeling off my face.

[B]

Seriously?

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I didn't Even think about that. But you're in the sun all day. You got guys like Brian Johnson staying inside all day because he's scared of the damage from the sun. Have you seen any sun damage from your dermatologist?

[B]

Absolutely. Like, yes. Yeah. I actually got skin cancer.

[A]

Oh, you did?

[B]

Yeah, last year.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

I had melanoma or actually last spring, and I had it removed, so it's fine. But I was really surprised because I'm someone who's, like, darker complexion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I, like, get dark very easily and. But I never have been really focused on, like, wearing, covering up. Like, you know, it's like, no big deal. I, like, would go to the beach. I wouldn't wear a sunblock. Yeah. I go out running. I wouldn't purposely try to get a lot sun, but I also wouldn't avoid it. I mean, even when I was younger, I can remember, like, going in, like, tanning a couple of times, just.

[A]

Oh, this?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's stupid now.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

But, like, I was like, you know, 23, whatever. I was like, oh, yeah. I'm like, just. Yeah. Yeah. That's so stupid.

[A]

Being tan was, like, attractive at that.

[B]

It was attractive. And it's like, now is like. I'm so much more aware of that. Is like, it makes so much sense to just cover up. Like, you know, wear a hat. Wear. Wear. Wear a shirt when, you know, you. I'm not always wearing a shirt. Like, I mean, I went out running yesterday morning without my shirt on. But once it gets to, like, a certain time of the day, like nine or ten.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'm gonna cover up. And it's just being, like, again, like, critical of, like, what you see. And, like, look at the actual evidence from, like, university research, that type of thing, versus just believing somebody you hear say something.

[A]

Well, social media makes it easy to see all these opinions these days.

[B]

Absolutely. Right.

[A]

Yeah. You got Dave Asprey saying, oat milk is terrible for you. Almond milk is terrible for you. There's mold and coffee. And you see that clip, and it's easy to just believe it and see the comments.

[B]

Yeah. And I wonder, like, what the motivation is of some of the people that, you know, spread this stuff, that a.

[A]

Lot of them have their own products.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's definitely motivation.

[B]

There could be.

[A]

I think some people generally want to help. Like, I like Huberman's podcast.

[B]

Yeah. Like, Huberman Government. Absolutely. I think he has a very strong reputation overall.

[A]

Yeah. But when I do see them have a product on the back end, I keep that in My head. I'm like, all right, absolutely. You're gonna say whatever.

[B]

Discerning. Yeah. That's so powerful.

[A]

Yeah. You got to trust the research, man. You got any rivalries in this sport? You probably race against the same people all the time.

[B]

Yeah, you know? Absolutely. But they're, like. They're like friendly rivalries, you know? So, I mean, going back across, like. I mean, it's kind of crazy. I've been running ultras for, like, three decades, and, like, I've hit my peak, like, literally in just the last five years.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Yeah. The last three years, I was ranked the top ten.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Ultra runners in North America. And it's kind of wild because I never came close to that in my 20s or my 30s. But it was just, like, continual, like, perseverance, like, continually developing myself, learning, like, how to train smarter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, the nutrition aspect, all that contributed. But my rivals are also my. My friends, you know? Like, it's like you can't be. You can't reach your pinnacle without having people that. That. That challenge. You beat you, and then you have to come back and try to beat him. Yeah. It makes you a better. Better athlete.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So are you the only vegan in the top 10?

[B]

No. No. Like, Jim Walmsley is number one in the country, and he is a vegan.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So, I mean, it's not like it's some, you know, rarity. In fact, within ultra running, I'd say probably 15% of the runners are in the top level. Are vegans.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Or vegetarians. Absolutely.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. There's a guy named Andrew Glaze. He literally runs 100 miles a week. He's done this for, like, four or five years. And he's vegan.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Like, one of the things is, like, recovery time. So, like, like I said yesterday, I ran. You know, I went to Death Valley. I went out to Bellow Basin, and, like, most of the people, they're getting out of their cars and they're. They're walking out, like, maybe a half a mile and then turn around, getting back in their car. Like, I. I run. I run all the way out to the, like, the middle of that salt pan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And then I'm gonna run back. That's what I did before I go to bed. I ran up a mountain Saturday night.

[A]

Right before bed?

[B]

Yeah, like, right before I go to bed.

[A]

Isn't your heart rate still going, like, afterwards?

[B]

I calm down. Yeah. Yeah. It's, like, just natural to me. Like, it's become ingrained into my. My. My My habits. It's like I, I run twice a day, like, wow. Every day. And I know people like that are ultra runners. Like my friend Ed rizzo. He's like, 86. I met him at my first ultra. He's still doing this, like, at 86, like, still, like, he's not doing 100 miles, but he's like 50 miles. Yeah. So it's, it's quite amazing what you are capable of if you don't abuse your body, like, with, you know, other things. Like, I mean, you see it every day, right? So, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's there. It has, like. I think my experience can be impactful to anyone listening to the show because you can always get better at whatever you're doing. It's like Dave Ramsey, he talks about it's never too late to start investing. I mean, you could be 70 years of age and, like, you may be a smoker, you may be a drinker, you may be someone who never gets out and exercises. You could, like, change your life dramatically by changing some of those habits today and also by, like, integrating some sort of fitness into your, like, your, Your lifestyle.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's like the, the impacts. I hear people say all kinds of excuses is like, they don't want to. To, to do it, but it's like they don't realize, like, it's not just you're gonna live longer. It's like the quality of your years, what you're gonna experience with the time you have here and, like, how you're gonna feel. Every aspect of your life will feel more energized and you'll feel just better physically, mentally, spiritually. By engaging in these activities.

[A]

100. On days I work out, I can notice the difference of my mindset. Like, I am way more optimized.

[B]

Yeah, it's absolutely huge. Yeah. It's like, I wish I could, like, have a couple days with every person I see that. I'm like, well, I wrestle them, like, into a different direction.

[A]

100. Yeah. Because there's a lot of mental health. I'm sure you're seeing it because you're a teacher. Teacher, Right. With your students.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But if they just worked out more, got outside in nature, I'm sure that would help them a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Like, it. That's, you know, it. We can be in, like, some stale environments and like, we, you know, it's like being in Vegas. Like, I, I have, like, this love, hate relationship with Vegas. I absolutely feel, like, elated when I arrive in Vegas and I typically head out to Henderson and I head out to like one of the national parks near here or some wild place. And I like certain things. I mean, I love the, the have the shows here, but. And I love that, like, there's a lot of really good vegan restaurants in Vegas. Really one of my favorite.

[A]

That's surprising because we're in a desert.

[B]

Yeah. No, it's like Taco Terrian is incredible. If you've ever eaten at. Taco Terrian is amazing.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. I always have to make my whole food stop right on the street.

[A]

I like Whole Foods.

[B]

Yeah. So they have a lot of. This is probably my favorite Whole Foods in the whole country. Right.

[A]

The one in Henderson, the one right here.

[B]

That's on the Strip.

[A]

Oh, that's right on the Strip.

[B]

Yeah. It's right right up from the Luxor.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Right next to airports.

[A]

I didn't know that point.

[B]

Six miles from the airport.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, it's real nice.

[A]

I'll check that one out.

[B]

Yeah, they have a lot of options. So. I mean, I have this love hate relationship, but even like staying in a hotel and the Strip, like yesterday is like, I can only talk so much time there. It's like they have you in prison. Like, it's hard to even like as a get out and walk around because it's not a very walkable place necessarily.

[A]

Which hotel are you?

[B]

I was at the Treasure Island.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Plus the smoke from the.

[B]

Yeah, the smoke, it just, and it just feels like very, you know, it's like the furthest you could come from, like, being in nature. It's like you're in this, like, it feels like Dubai.

[A]

There's lights.

[B]

Dubai is like very much like we've created this artificial world. And I mean, I feel like a lot of people don't spend much time outdoors or like, even in like your backyard, local park, something like that. I mean, that's always going to make you feel just better.

[A]

100%.

[B]

It's always going to make you feel better.

[A]

Yeah, I ground every day.

[B]

That's, that's sweet.

[A]

Yeah, that's, you know, the Stanford. I don't know if they still do this, but the Stanford track and track and field team and the cross country team, they, they used to run barefoot.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. There's been a lot of, like, evidence that, that that's powerful. Like, one of the things about running really far is you have to have good form. And so if you're running barefoot, you're, you're likely to develop Good form because you just can't do it any other way. You can't land on your heel. If you're running barefoot, you're going to kill yourself.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But you feel some of those things are masked by the fact that the, the shoes today, some of the shoes today have very cushion, like lots of cushion in them. So people don't really feel that impact immediately and then it's masked and then like a week or two weeks or like just what they're feeling in general. Their knees or back, they hurt because they're, they're, the way their, their form is.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah, it's a really, it's a true thing.

[A]

So the shoes super important then.

[B]

Shoes can be really important. Yeah. I wear Newtons and I really love the Newtons because they're like, they have cushion but they're also like designed so that you land like you're barefoot running and you take off so you're not like landing on your heel and like doing damage to your back and your, your knees. Wow.

[A]

So you're not supposed to land on your heel when you're running?

[B]

No. No. You're not?

[A]

Pretty sure that's how I used to run.

[B]

Yeah, that's how I used to run too. Yeah, I definitely used to run that way back in the day. But it's true like it, you really want to be able to run like you would be running barefoot. So I mean you might just try it out. Like run on like some grass for like little 40 meter strides, 40 yard straws like that could do it. Or like some like turf like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's comfortable on your feet.

[A]

Good to know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Wow. What about running backwards? I had, what's that guy's name? Knees over toes guy.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Ben Patrick.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Have you seen him?

[B]

I have not, but I've heard of people getting like world records run marathon backwards and stuff.

[A]

Oh, you can run a marathon back.

[B]

But someone, I can't do that. But someone else did.

[A]

That sounds hard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But he was basically saying walking and running backwards is good for injury prevention.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah, I, I could see that. I, I, I mean I don't do it but like I, I could see that benefiting you because you're kind of strengthening different muscles.

[A]

Right. Well, it sounds like you're doing good with injury prevention anyways, so I, well I'm always learning.

[B]

Like that's the thing. Like I've learned from like being at the very bottom and like the least likely person to ever like succeed with running as learned is like you're always listening to other people if hear what they do and, like, incorporating that into your strategies.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, like, there's something I do, like, I. I hurt my foot on the Appalachian Trail. I was running the whole length of it.

[A]

Did you roll it?

[B]

No, I. I, like, hit, like, I kicked, like, 150 rocks.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Like, just kick them, because I fell down over 100 times. 2018.

[A]

Was it steep?

[B]

Yeah, a lot of places were super steep and, like. But, I mean, I. I really did damage my foot. Like, it's, like, splayed like this. I went to, like, three different podiatrists. They all told me different things. And finally, physical therapy. The key was just, like, reorienting my balance. And, like, literally every day while I'm flossing my teeth, after brushing my teeth, I balance on one foot with my knee raised, and then I balance on the other foot, like, when I'm flossing my teeth. So it becomes part of my daily ritual. And it's. It's something that seems so, like, simple and, like. But it's. It's creating, like, equilibrium in your body. And it's really important because a lot of times as. As athletes, we get something like our. Our calf muscle, like, or our Achilles is, like, hurting, or something's going on, and it causes you to, like, change your. Your form, and then it. It causes some other injury somewhere else in your body. I also go to, like, a guy does active release therapy. So, like, he does body work. It's kind of like a sports massage. But he is, like, a genius, and he's very intuitive with the body. You can, like, absolutely, like, tell when there's. You have something, like, off.

[A]

Interesting. So he adjusts you like a chiropractor.

[B]

He adjusts me, but he only focuses on a specific area of your body where you're having, like, trouble.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. So, like, if my. My calf muscles. Like, if I've got some calf muscle that's, like, really super tight, he'll just, like, find the trigger points with it or break up the scar tissue, these sorts of things. It's like. It's incredible. Like, I mean, he works on a lot of professional athletes, like, with the Cincinnati Res and Bengals in the past. It's. But he also works on typical people. I mean, there's. People have gone in to see him that were suffering from, like, tennis elbow or, like, some chronic injury for, like, the last 15 years, and, like, they leave after one or two visits, and they're like, wow. Yeah, I feel totally different. And you'll find active Release therapists, like in every city, major city in America.

[A]

I need to look into that. I haven't heard of that.

[B]

It's very powerful.

[A]

Yeah, I'd rather do that than a chiropractor because chiropractor is too broad. It's like.

[B]

Yeah, I've only had limited experience. I mean I think like chiropractors can be really good too in their own domain. It's just I've, I've really found that like this active release therapy is, is, it's fast. Like I don't have to like buy a big plan. You can like go in and get a couple sessions and you'll find that it's really helpful. I mean your body is like a car in a sense. Like would you like neglect like your, your car to take it in to have like the tires rotated or oil changes, things like this?

[A]

Right.

[B]

But we're, we're very reluctant at times to go spend money on ourselves for something that really can impact our, our overall being for like decades and how we feel, period.

[A]

Yeah, it's super important. Have you ever had to quit a race stop early?

[B]

Yes. Yeah. So with the last person standing race, it's basically everyone is going until like they're, they give up or they can't continue on. So that race only has one person who is finishes, is a winner. And I've run like eight of those races and I've won I think three of them.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. So there's been others where I've not been the last person and, and but amongst I've run over, let's see, I think 106 ultras in my lifetime including like 50 races or 100 miles or more. And the one race I didn't finish was back in 2010, I didn't finish a race called the Spartathlon. Spartathlon is this epic race that goes from Athens to Sparta and it traces the route of Phidipides. Phidipides is a famous Greek who we know the marathon, modern day marathon from because he ran in like to marathon to like announce the victory. But he did this other run was 153 miles to Sparta to try and get the Spartans to help them in the battle. And so I did this race and I didn't finish it. I made it to about 116 miles. I like had all of these forces working against me. Like our, our flight like had emergency landing in the UK on the way over. Yeah, people were hysterical. Like we went from like 30000ft to landing in like 10 minutes.

[A]

Holy crap.

[B]

Yeah. Like the pilots, like, if anyone has any laptops are on, please turn them off. Like they thought there was a fire on the flight so that I didn't get to the race until like six hours before it started. And there were some other things. I ran the race too fast. I was like in the lead with some Brazilian runner and I didn't pace myself. So. But what happened from that race is I took away a lot. So it's when we get knocked down that we oftentimes learn the most.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I learned that I never want to quit. So that's the last ultra I've ran in 2010, where it's actually like a race where there's, you know, you have a finish line that you cannot, you can't. Like I didn't go to the finish line even though I had the opportunity. And really I told myself I didn't think I could make it. When I got to 160 miles and I did, I thought like, I did the math in my head and if I would have kept going, I would have just made it after the time cut off. And I didn't want to risk, I think, failure. Like I was. I was really not wanting to risk like putting all that energy into it and impossibly failing despite all that energy. But I learned afterwards I went to the finish line, I was watching these runners come in, some of them like, looking as haggard as you could ever imagine. Like just with the last ounces of their energy making it to the statue of Leonidas and touching it. And I learned in that moment I was like, I don't ever want to be. I don't ever want to quit again. So the only time I've ever. I would ever quit is if I had like a medical emergency or I get timed out. So like with the backyard ultra, I've gotten timed out. I also do this crazy race in Tennessee called Barkley, which is like a. Same famous secret race, sort of secretive race that happens in Tennessee. In that race, I have not finished either. So it's. There's very few finishers of that race, only like 1% of the. The runners.

[A]

What makes that one so difficult?

[B]

It's. It's. It. You have to navigate. You have to find your way. Well, find these books are hidden in the woods.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah. So you have to climb the equivalent of Mount Everest two times and it's quite wild.

[A]

Holy crap. Mount Everest?

[B]

Yeah. Well, you have to go up and down the equivalent Mount Everest two times like 67, 000ft you have to, like, find books that are hidden in the woods. So there's like 12 to 14 books.

[A]

It's like a scavenger hunt, right?

[B]

It's kind of like a scavenger hunt. There's the famous iconic race director Laz Lake, this guy with this motley beard. He's been doing this for ages. And he. He sets out, like, the directions on, like, how you. That he gives you these cryptic directions on how to find the books. So it's like, go to the upper point. You gotta find the certain type of tree, and there's going to be a rock that's the size of a Volkswagen, you know, such and such meters away. And then you got to find it underneath, like, the edge of the rock. So, I mean, it's. It's very difficult to find.

[A]

So that sounds harder than the actual running part. Just, like, finding it.

[B]

It is. It really is. And a lot of times it's, like, very crazy in, like, that area of Tennessee. Like, there's a lot of, like, fog, and it's. Oh, yeah, it's in, like, March. And. Yeah, you're. There's only 40 competitors.

[A]

Damn. Plus, the elevation's no joke.

[B]

There's no. No joke. I mean, basically, all sorts of people have tried to run this race, including, like, special forces, and most everyone gets really messed up.

[A]

Yeah. Because, I mean, just climbing Everest, so people are out of breath. So imagine running.

[B]

Yeah. But last year, or this. This. This year, in fact, we had our first female finisher.

[A]

Oh, whoa.

[B]

Yeah. Jasmine Paris. Pretty incredible. And that's another thing within our sport is we're seeing, like, women are, in many cases, running equal to men or superseding them. In fact, I mentioned the Appalachian Trail and another, like, ultra runner, Tara. Another ultra runner, she actually got the fastest known time on the Appalachian Trail this year.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Out of women and men or out.

[B]

Of all men and women.

[A]

Holy crap.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that's pretty amazing. On my team, for the last person standing, we had Americans, we had 65 different countries, and one of our two finalists was a female.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah. So, I mean, it's pretty amazing. When I started in this sport back in the 90s, I knew it from the beginning. Like, I started seeing, like, a famous runner back then was Sue Olson, and she ran in Minnesota with me, and she would win the race, like, beat all the men. It was pretty incredible. This was back in the 90s, but it was only, like, shared, like, limited amount. Like, that made people heard about. Only if you lived in Minnesota, but I Mean, I think that more people are hearing about, like, women like Courtney Du Walter, you know, it's just she, she did this Fiji 100 or Mount Fuji 100 miler this year, and she came in, I think, second overall or third overall amongst, like, a field of like, hundreds of people. So, yeah, it's. So much is in your mind, your mental capacity, your mental mindset. And gender has less of an advantage the further you go in these races.

[A]

That's really interesting. I wonder what's going on there because, yeah, the sprints, men are obviously better, but as it goes on, I guess the, the playing field gets more equal, huh?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[A]

That's interesting.

[B]

Yeah, it's wild.

[A]

Have you done an ironman?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I've done a couple iron Man. It was, it was kind. I like the aspect of changing what you're doing, you know, Like, I like the swimming. The swimming is my worst event in the world.

[A]

That one scares me the most. Out of the three swimming part, I look like.

[B]

I look ridiculous sometimes. But actually that was the part of the. The race I enjoy the most. Like, swimming. Swimming aspect. Yeah. Even though, like, I'm traditionally known as a runner, like, I. I loved being out. If you're out in like an open water and like, you're swimming, it's very liberating. It feels very free. So I really love getting out. I mean, an ideal place would be like Lake Tahoe. Like, imagine being swimming in that. That beautiful water where you're. It's crystal clear. Or like in Greece, like, if you're out swimming between islands.

[A]

I've been there.

[B]

Yeah, it's beautiful.

[A]

Beautiful.

[B]

Yeah. It's so incredible.

[A]

Yeah, it's unbeatable.

[B]

It's so amazing. I did this adventure where you. You swim between the islands.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah, it was so cool. And I'm not a very fast swimmer. My cousin, like, was having to go back and forth, back and forth, like, in front of me, waiting for me. But I think that's the thing is being open to doing new things and also growing. Like, don't be stagnant. Like, always researching, finding new, new ways to like, improve yourself. Like, the people probably listen to your podcast, like, to do you. You know, it's like, is a big aspect of what I believe in.

[A]

Yeah, I love that, man. Mindset's important.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's with teaching. It's another thing, like, I tried to, like, really instill in my students is like. Yeah, I think with teaching today is like, I don't only think about, like, my curriculum Like, I think about character as well, and also about, like, a million other topics, like health and trying to really help kids to, like, you know, grow into, like, whatever dreams they wish to pursue. But, I mean, like, there was a guest. I was on the show, like, recently. I don't know, you maybe can, like, help me with their name. I just happened to catch it, and they were like. They said something like. I think I wrote down here. It was like, what? What? Oh, schools are teaching lies about America. I was like, what in the world is this person talking about? Did you. Do you know what I'm talking about? This.

[A]

I've had a few guests.

[B]

Yeah. The guests in the last couple weeks, it was. Someone said something like, bastion education. I was like, man, you know, most of the teachers in this country would die for their students. Literally die for their students. I mean, you look at, like, and. And education is not perfect. Like, it absolutely isn't. We could absolutely grow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But there are a lot of positive things are happening in education in this country. Amongst every single student I have, I don't have a single student that I don't, like, love.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Absolutely. I mean, I have some that give you a little, like, extra. Yeah, yeah. Edges. But I absolutely love every one of my students. And, like, my. My class today is. Is incredible as any class I've ever had in my lifetime.

[A]

What are you teaching?

[B]

I teach financial literacy and AP Government.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Government. Government is an ap. Government are my primary, like, classes.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

I was teaching financial literacy up to last year, but, like, the curriculum, for example, that's all adopted by the state government. And, you know, so, I mean, like, the. We. We've had some real benefits that, you know, Covid was a really rough time, no doubt about that. And it was. It was difficult teaching as well, because you can't really get the same effect of, like, teaching online. Personally, I feel as you do in person.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

But, you know, since that time, like, art, I teach in a public school. In our district, we have tablets for every student. We have, like, the technology that is available today versus where I started. Even in, like, 2001, when I started teaching, I was still using that chalkboard. You know, it's kind of crazy that that advancement has happened in, like, 25 years to where now, you know, our kids have access that our kids don't have cell phones in our classroom. Like, the state of Ohio has passed law, legislation, so that there are no longer cell phones in the classroom.

[A]

I actually like that.

[B]

Yeah, I. I do, too. Like, I'm always had Like a board where kids would just put it up there when they came in a classroom anyway. So it wasn't.

[A]

They won't be able to focus with those.

[B]

But now we have a pouch that they put it into every day. And I've not had. I've had, like, two students challenge me on that. And, like, that's only happened one time and then not again. So it's like kids today are. Are not like these, you know, dragons that some kids. And the teachers aren't either. Like, I mean, although I do have a little inner dragon that I sometimes pull out. Like my spirit animal. Yeah. In these crazy races. Right. But, like, yeah, I mean, I'm around teachers, and all my life I've. I've taught in public schools, and I. And I start off in a school that was a really challenged school 25 years ago that, like, it was. The resources just weren't there. But that's another thing. In our country, like, everything is really diverse in terms of resources. Like, we teach. I teach in a public school in Cincinnati, but we have a strong tax base. But if you go out to a rural county, like Vin county in Ohio, like, those kids have very limited tax base.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And, like, if you're in Kentucky, teachers make, like, maybe 60% of what I make because of, like, the. The way that they fund schools there. If you go to Mississippi, it's even worse. So, I mean, so much is. And it's not just about funding, obviously, but that could be part of the puzzle. And it's not just about teachers. Although, you know, you. You may have a couple bad teachers.

[A]

Yeah, that's. In any industry.

[B]

Any industry. But the bulk of people that are there, they're there. I see them there every single day because they care about kids. And, like, that's. That's the truth.

[A]

I don't doubt that. I don't doubt that most teachers want the best for their kids. I think a lot of the complaints I'm seeing is the actual material that's being taught.

[B]

Yeah, that's really interesting because the material, by and large, is being produced by the state government. And like. Like, I think the biggest critics on that are coming more from, like, the conservative end.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, like, Ohio is a largely Republican state. Like, our. Our state government is absolutely controlled by the Republican Party, all levels. So, I mean, I don't feel like that the curriculum is particularly biased to that end or to liberal end. I feel like it's. It's a fair curriculum. Like, I feel like it's been produced, but, I mean, I'd be curious to look at what specific things that, that, that they were talking about with that. But, like, like, we're, we're studying the Constitution. Like, we're engaged in the Constitution. We're looking at, you know, like, the, the amendments. We're not going off on some strange tangent. And even though, like, for example, I'm a vegan, I don't, like, make my curriculum about veganism. Like, you know, it's like, I don't. My, my students know I'm a vegan because I have a, a vegetarian club that meets once a month where we provide, like, a potluck. And like, it's just a fun event. I don't talk about, like, veganism in class. Like, you know, like, so. And there, there's a way that we have with, like, evaluating teachers. I mean, we have that system in most states.

[A]

I remember that in my school, someone would come in, like, once a month.

[B]

So, I mean, it's like, if you have now, it doesn't mean that there's not bad administrations. There's not people that get you. You. I've seen crazy stories out there too, but those crazy stories, I feel, are, are the minority.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, you, by and large, most teachers are, are trying to, like, instill, like, pos, like follow the curriculum. And I, I, I mean, yeah, I, I'm. I, I don't know. Like, I feel like, you know, there's, there's, there's been more involvement in the last, like, eight years, 10 years, six years in terms of, like, school boards. Like, a lot of people are getting. I need to go find out what's going on. The school board. There was never that before when I started teaching is really interesting. It's really strange. Like, there's been this whole push of, like, what's been. What's being taught in the curriculum. Like. Yeah. And I hear in Florida, like, they, they banned AP African American History.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Yeah. Did you hear that?

[A]

No, I didn't hear that.

[B]

So, I mean, I, I don't understand. Like, I feel like, you know, you can be patriotic and, and, you know, love this country even greater by knowing that the hardships we've experienced.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

By, by knowing, like, about the, this, the segregation and, like, no understanding that period of Jim Crow and, like, how we've moved beyond that, you know, So I don't understand how that, like, would injure, like, you know, one of my students feelings or make one of my other students feel like a victim. You know, it's like the education I received or that I Feel we have today is even better than it was back when I was in school. When I was in school, I. If you would ask me, like, for example, and I'm social studies, so I'm not talking about other subjects, but if you would ask me about, like, who was like, I was asked by my 1. My neighbors, like, about a history project for their child. And they said, I remember this question coming to me when I was like, a junior in high school. They said, my kid needs to do research on an African American figure. And I was like, I only knew two people. I was like, MLK or Rosa Parks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, I was a junior in high school. That was it. So I feel like that education back then was much more, you know, Eurocentric. And like today we're much more looking at sources from multiple perspectives.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I mean, that, yeah, I think is important. Like, I mean, it's important to have, like, to, to look, to fill in the story with more than just one source.

[A]

You know, it's cool to see your perspective on this because I've never had a teacher come on and give their perspective. I've had on a lot of guests criticize the public education system.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To be fair, those people are entrepreneurial in nature, and they're not really meant to fit in the public education system to begin with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

And I love entrepreneurship. Like, see, I also financial literacy. After the Great Recession, like, the state of Ohio adopted curriculum for financial literacy, so we actually teach financial literacy. And I did not get that growing up.

[A]

That's cool. I didn't get that either.

[B]

Like, I didn't know about investing. I know about, like, so they teach.

[A]

That in High School.

[B]

100% we teach that. I mean, like, I, I, I very much care about, like, yo, like, students knowing about, like, the risk of debt to know about, like, I bring in entrepreneurs into the classroom, and I love that. Like, I love bringing those people in. And every kid in America should get access to that. So I'm not up to date on, like, researching every single state. So, yeah, I do believe every, every single state must have, like, you know, financial literacy into their curriculum. You, you shouldn't be allowed to graduate high school if you don't understand compound interests and like, the other basic models that everyone can benefit from. It's as important to your life is like, health to understand your financial health. You know that there's a, there's absolutely. They go and they're paired together for sure.

[A]

What do you think of the SATs? And a lot of universities use that to determine if someone will get in or not. Right.

[B]

Yeah. We do both SAT and ACTS tests. And I mean, I feel like it's. It shouldn't be discounted. Like, I think that there is some benefit to having ACT tests. Like, I mean, I think they should also look at other aspects of the kids. Look at, like, you know, how their grades are, look at what kind of look. Were they involved with extracurriculars? Do they volunteer at all? Do they get any. They have some strong letters of recommendation. So, I mean, I feel like there's definitely a full puzzle, but I wouldn't, like, totally eliminate testing altogether. Like, I mean, I know a lot of teachers complain about testing.

[A]

Like, grading it. It takes a while.

[B]

Well, like, just that we. We move our curriculum just towards testing. So, like, I teach. Like, they may say I don't want to teach the test. Like, but I do feel like it also to me is like a race. Like, I prepare to run a race like in Death Valley every July. I've done it for the last 13 years and run the bad 135. And for me, that bad 135 is an indicator of how I'm doing in terms of, like, my athleticism. So, like, this last summer, I didn't have my best bad wire 135, so I went back. I want to redraw what I'm doing and go back at it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I feel like for us, with my class, we have a state tested that is the last one that high school kids take, and it's on government. So it's all about the Constitution. And our. My kids, they. They've done really well in it. They. They perform way above the state average. And I feel like it's. It's important for them because we have a goal of where we're getting to. I mean, that's not our only goal. Our goal is for you to become productive members of society, to, like, be educated on, like, the Constitution. But also, this is one of our goals out there. We want to do well on the state test at the end. So we. We had like, 91 passage, but I want to have 100 passage. So it's like. But I feel like, you know, the. The ACT sat there. There is some potential value. I'm not as familiar about the SAT as I'm the act.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But because I only. I. I went to college in state. Actually, I went to Minnesota. But I only need my ACT scores.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

But I want to eliminate them all together. I think they're Another. They're. They're valid. Like, they could be another valid point to, like, look at the full picture, you know?

[A]

Yeah, I can agree with that. Yeah. They're so long, though. Four hours.

[B]

God damn. That. That's true. Yeah. I mean, I'm not. I'm not like. It's not like I love them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I also see some value if you didn't have any testing whatsoever and you only relied on. On student scores and, like, curriculum. I mean, I'm sorry, the, like, extracurricular activities, like their essays, letters of recommendation. I mean, I feel like some of the students, they actually get scholarships through those tests.

[A]

The high scores. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So, I mean, I've known students that have gotten that. They come from, like, a disadvantaged background that have been able to, like, get somewhere because of their test.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

So, I mean, that's one other reason why I see it, but I. I empathize. I mean, I don't think that should be like the old. The whole piece, like. Okay, we're just gonna look at the test scores. No way.

[A]

100. Yes. You said you had a bad race in Badwater this year, and then you ended up running it twice, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically I was running, like, I ran this race, and it's. It's 135 miles, it's like 120 degrees, and it's extremely hot, so you're just like, beating your body. And normally I never get as tired as I did. This time at about mile 35, I was just really getting dehydrated. I worked through that. Then I've made it to about mile 100 some, and I literally just staked out, which means I took a break from the race. I went and cooled off, and I came back, which you're allowed to do within the rules. But I wasn't happy that I did that. Like, when I came back, I felt revived, but I also was really, like, kind of mad with myself for not fighting through that fatigue because I felt like, mentally I had given up. Like, I had more in me, but I didn't want to go to that place where I feel that extreme discomfort.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

So I was like. But it's also an enlightening place place. And I. So I didn't want to, like, I. When I restarted the. The run, then about five hours later after, like, cooling off, getting a nap, etc, I felt really fresh. And I was running up the mountain, Mount Whitney. I made up about three or four miles up the mountain, and I just had this epiphany hit me like that. I want to go to the finish line, and I want to turn around, and I'm just going to run right back to the target. So it's going to be 270 miles. I didn't know if my crew would be agreeable to that. So when I got to the finish line, I basically told my friend Judd, who was my crew chief. I was like, hey, what do you think about turning around now and just going back to the start? He's like, well, I don't have anything else going on, so let's go do it. So one other crew member of mine, Isaac, he jumped in and they helped to crew me. They've just drive down the road a couple miles, and then, like, I would just get drinks out of the back, et cetera. But it was kind of wild because that's a race I've been running for, like, now 13 years, and I never turned around at the finish line and ran all the way back. And if I would have said that at the start line that was going to go all the way there, 135 miles, turn around and come back, that would have. I would have said, hell no. Like, absolutely not. But something happened, and it just, like, tugged at my inner, like, spirit to, like, just do this. It was. It was difficult. It was really tough. Especially the last, like, marathon, because it was going back to the hottest place in Death Valley. It was over 120 degrees.

[A]

Jesus.

[B]

And it was a wind into our face. It was really hot wind. It just, like, goes right across that black pavement and it just heats you. And. But it was. It's. What's exciting about this stuff is when you think you're at your end, you're not at your end, and you have a way to, like, pull more from yourself now. It. It takes, like, nutrition. It takes, like, pacing. It takes, like, sometimes you have to stop and. And like, stretch or do something like that. But there's more within each of us than we ever dream.

[A]

Yeah. You remind me of David Goggins. Man. You guys are machines out there.

[B]

Yeah, we. I love David. I mean, I think he. He and I are different individuals. Like, we're both really hard, as he would say.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, I would love to go to the end with him, but we both come from a different strand. Like, he's going to come at you and say, you got to get going right now. And I'm gonna. And I'm like, more like the, The, The. The. The quieter teacher mode.

[A]

You're like the philosopher.

[B]

Yeah. And I love his approach. And I know, like, a lot of people that resonates with them. They like being, you know, that. That hardness of just being. Like, get your military approach. Yeah. Go and like, with my students or people that I come with across, like, I. I just try to reason. Like, try to reason and. Yeah, I mean, that's just different. Different angle. But yeah, I love what he does.

[A]

Have you ever yelled at a student or gotten angry, super angry?

[B]

Yeah, I have. I. But I don't like to do that. Like, I. I don't usually do that. Like, normally. Like, one of the things about the running, it kind of. Or working out like you like to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is it just calms you. So, like, I never. I always run commute to work. So every single day for 11 years, I run to work and run home from work.

[A]

Wow. Every single day you show up sweating to school.

[B]

No, I changed. So I got my. My suit, tie and my backpack. I, like, throw that on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I like, carry my laptop, my food. Everything's in my backpack. It's like 5k each way. But a lot of days I'll run 10 miles of work, 10 miles home, and like, that way, it. I make sure I work out, but I also, like, I get to work and I have, like, the right mindset. Like, I feel like, ready to engage with the students. I'm like, not bringing in too much extra baggage. And like, if I have a rough day with a class or some for some reason, which doesn't happen that often, then I just. Running home, it's gone.

[A]

It's like meditation almost.

[B]

Meditation. Absolutely. So, yeah, I mean, I. I don't, like, typically yell at students. I don't like to do that. I mean, last year, my student teacher was a Marine. He was amazing. And he never yelled one time the whole school year. And he got the kids attention by speaking to them and reasoning with them, and it was beautiful.

[A]

Yeah, I got some traumatic memories getting yelled at us.

[B]

Yeah, that's all right. Yeah. But I can't say I never did it. I mean. I mean, you're human at the end of the years. Yeah. I mean, but when I do something that I don't like, I try to catch myself. So, like this last week, my. My dog died.

[A]

Oh, sorry.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, he was amazing dog. He was a rescue dog, Chance. And like, that day at school, I had like, my second bell. There was just like, some, like, a little bit, like, people weren't engaged, like, I want them to, and someone, like, said. I. I addressed someone and said something like I said someone's name wrong or something, and I was like, well, my dog died, you know, And I was like, yeah. And it was. I didn't yell. But then afterwards, I was like, it made me think about it. I was like, oh, you know, I. I definitely want to, like, you know, talk to that soon. Be like, hey, I'm sorry. I mean, to like, snap back to my dog. Wow. You know, just because that's, like, that. That I think about that, like, that. That. That could have a bad impact on. On my student, you know, so that.

[A]

Takes a big person to admit that, because I've never seen a teacher, like, apologize after they yell at someone, you know.

[B]

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I mean, it's. I don't think it gets us too far. I mean, there are times where I want to, like, yell at someone, like, to get some sense into someone, maybe if I'm pushed my end. But usually that's not the way that you're actually going to, like, break through, you know? And with me as a kid, I was. I was a bad student.

[A]

Oh, you were?

[B]

Yeah, I. I normally had, like, D's just scraping by.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

It was that marathon that I talked about that changed everything for me because I found something to go that. I found that formula. I started to find the formula. I was still finished in the back of the pack, but I found that persistence. With persistence, you can do anything on this planet. And with enough persistence and work ethic, you can achieve anything. So that was a real key moment. I love the aspect. For me personally, it helps me like, that I was a bad student because I didn't change things around until I was later in high school and in college. And that helps me with working with the kids that may be struggling. They didn't have, like, success before. And I still don't have success with every student. Like, I'm. I have students in my mind right now that I'm thinking about that tomorrow. How am I going to engage them? Because I want them to. To move into a different direction, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

At the end of the day, it's. It's on them as well. So you can 100% influence everyone.

[B]

That's it. Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. But I agree with you, man. I was a bad student, too. But persistence, how I made it in podcasting, I film more than anyone I know. And just that work ethic and volume is what got me to one of the top shows.

[B]

How did you make that transition? I mean, it's pretty incredible that you went from. You started this in 2023.

[A]

Yeah. To 22 months ago.

[B]

That's incredible.

[A]

So 1200 episodes in 22 months. That might be a world record.

[B]

That might be a world record because.

[A]

Rogan's at 2415 years.

[B]

That's crazy. And right now you're doing a fasting.

[A]

I'm doing a two day fast right now. I just got a pernuvo health scan done on my body, so I want to fast and you know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I'm really curious about the fasting.

[A]

Like, I mean, have you done it?

[B]

I, I've done like little bits, but never seriously.

[A]

You probably couldn't because of how much you run. I don't think it would work.

[B]

I think you could do it just for like short periods.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like, it's part of your, like your big.

[A]

I meant a long one though.

[B]

Yeah. I'm not sure, like, I, I, I would be curious. Like, you know, I think I could do it, but it would affect my training. But you, you could incorporate that into like your training. Like. Yeah, maybe you're okay. This is my lower mileage part of my 48 hours a week.

[A]

Yeah, maybe you're off season or low mileage part of the season.

[B]

You could do it. Yeah, you could definitely do it.

[A]

There's some interesting studies on it. Like a three day fast and how it can reverse certain things in your body. I would look into it.

[B]

I think the, the other aspect I'm curious about is like just the, the philosophical. Oh, let the, the spiritual aspect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I think that there's something also you, you might be able to like, it's like get to a meditative state a little bit differently.

[A]

They call it runner's high. Right.

[B]

That's different though too. But I mean with the fasting, I think. But yeah, runner's high is absolutely something real. Like you, you get like an elated. But that you need you, I would think you need like, you need the nutrition.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You need the power because it's hard to like be going 100%. And a lot of times with the runner's high, it's like, it's like a concert. Like imagine you're like driving a convertible and you're like listening to your favorite music or that like, you get that feeling, like tingly feeling all over that sensation. And that's what runner's high is. It's like you've, I've, I've got that. Maybe when I was running in the 270 miles and I turn around and I come back down off Mount Whitney. I'm looking at the, this incredible vista and I just get this tingly sensation over my whole body and I feel euphoria that I couldn't. Like I could just go forever.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. It's a wild experience.

[A]

I wonder what that is like scientifically, what's going on there.

[B]

I think it's like the endorphins kicking in your, your, your body. Like it's, it's the brain chemistry.

[A]

Yeah. The human body's so fascinating.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're still figuring out what's going on.

[B]

It is wild. I love, but longevity, like running like is, it's just about taking care of your body. I mean like I've been doing this for now almost 28 years and it's like I'm still looking next year to compete in a world championship and I would love to go back and win that race. And it's like you can like my friend is 102. He got cancer at 69. He changed his, his, his lifestyle. He, he, the doctors say he had three months to live.

[A]

Geez.

[B]

He changed to eating all vegan foods. Got reduced stress in his life and he's, he does more pull ups than I do. He literally does pull ups every night.

[A]

That's awesome.

[B]

So it's like there's, it's an interesting age we live in.

[A]

It is.

[B]

But you've got like, you got. Some folks are like on the extreme end of like, you know, health and nutrition and doing crazy things. And then you've got. A lot of Americans are like struggling now. Like I look at my hometown in Ohio, in Circleville, like a third of the people I go into like Kroger or anywhere like that are like really suffering from obesity. And it's like that, that has an impact on your mind as well, like your mental health. It's, it's, you know, so there, there's absolutely the, the, the modern currents like that, A lot of the currents that we're getting through our marketing and like advertising is like, it's only furthering like this epidemic of like poor health. 100% in the country.

[A]

Yeah. I used to eat like and I, I'd brain fog every day.

[B]

Yeah. Can you imagine that? Like think about schools for example. Like we talk about the, the like comparing our country to the other 35 countries or 25 countries in the world. And like why, why are we not performing as well? And like one of the, the biggest challenges is, is that kids do not have adequate nutrition in school, period. I mean they're, I mean we're trying to provide it.

[A]

The school Launches.

[B]

They're trying to provide it. Like, our school district has really made some shifts and they've really tried to do a better job. When you look across the whole country, a lot of kids come to lunch or breakfast or come to, come to class, come to school with like chips and a soda.

[A]

That's used to be me. Yeah, three bags of chips.

[B]

How in the world can you learn math or study science without getting enough nutrition? So I mean, you know, school really reevaluating, like, you know what we're providing to our kids and providing adequate nutrition to our kids would be a huge difference. One of the things I was surprised about with my school district is they actually have a vegan option every day now in every school in my district. It's like kind of crazy now. Our breakfast is still could use some health, like in my mind. But it's. There are some shifts. Like we finally have like salad bar. Like, they never had that when I was growing up.

[A]

Definitely not.

[B]

I don't know. I mean, so there are some shifts. Like they don't sell soda in our school anymore.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

You can't buy soda. But like, when you look at analyzing like our performances, like, also look at like those other meters, like what's happening with our kids versus other kids, like, are we getting enough like, of these nutrition and like, we've kind of pushed aside like physical education, like in like the arts. Like, you know, there's so much concentration on the, the, the core academic subjects. But those subjects, like orchestra, someone is playing orchestra. They're more likely to do better in math as well by, by performing an orchestra and like having these other arts, they're more likely to, to balance out these kids so that they have an outlet so that they're able to succeed in the other subjects.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

It's. There's a whole big picture out there.

[A]

There's some work to do. But I think we're on the right path.

[B]

It is. We are on the right path to a degree. We are on the right path, but we. Yeah, it's, it's a challenge. You know, I mean, you know, President Trump, love him or hate him, you know, he, he, he said some like, you know, flamboyant things, and I think that that's in our concerns. Like, you know, he's a leader of our country, President elect. You know, I mean, he said recently that kids could go to a public school and get a sex change and not even get the parents permission.

[A]

I saw that.

[B]

That's the most outrageous statement I've ever heard of. And I'm not picking on people if they vote for Harris or Trump, but really thinking about, you know, if 5% of people believe that, like, I can't even. As teachers, we can't even take kids out the front of the school without permission slip.

[A]

A lot of distrust.

[B]

So much permission slip so that there's no school in America that that's the case. But you have our president elect saying that. So it's a concern, you know, that there's a lot of misinformation that's being sent out there that have parents, like, in hysteria, like at these school board meetings and et cetera, when. When reality isn't really. So.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. A lot of mistrust with parents and teachers right now. It's probably an all time high.

[B]

I say you're right. Yeah.

[A]

With the media.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, Harvey, it's been cool getting to hear from you, man.

[B]

It's really cool to hear from you. And I'm definitely excited to hear about the. The rest of your fasting experience.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

And keep up with the basketball. That's really sweet. And. And that's amazing that you've had this podcast. How many months now?

[A]

22.

[B]

22 months. So do you have any, like, goals in the next, like, two years, like, where you want?

[A]

Yeah, two years. I want to break the world record for number of podcast episodes. I want to be top three on Apple for overall shows. I think right now we're like 100 for overall in our category. We're number one. And then I want to be top 100 on Spotify as well.

[B]

That's really sweet.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Go get it.

[A]

Yes, sir. Thanks for coming on.

[B]

I appreciate it.

[A]

Thanks for watching, guys. See you next time.

[B]

Cheers.