B (2:12)

Yeah. Because it's 100k in your bank account over 10 years, it's not worth 100k anymore.

A (2:16)

Yeah, exactly. Whereas Bitcoin performance over the last 10 years. Crazy. It kind of sells itself.

B (2:22)

Right? Yeah. I wish I had the bitcoin I had in high school. I got rid of it too quick.

A (2:26)

Oh, man. Brutal. Many such cases.

B (2:28)

Yeah. When did you get in? Were you super?

A (2:30)

I got in around 2017.

B (2:32)

Nice.

A (2:32)

Yeah. So top of the market at the time. It was like, you know, 19K.

B (2:36)

I remember that.

A (2:36)

Yeah. About the very top, like, and then wrote it all the way down and then just, you know, started learning more about it, started getting more and more convinced that this was. There's something, like, unique happening here. And started learning more about money. I think that was really what got me. It was like, yeah, what is money? Where does money come from? How come we are paying taxes, for instance, when they can just print more of it, whatever. And so the more I learned about bitcoin, the more I realized this is an actual, real solution where I don't have to trust a third party. I can transact with anybody I want to anywhere in the world in real time, basically. And fiat currency doesn't. Doesn't offer that. So bitcoin very quickly captivated my attention, and, you know, now it's like a major part of my life.

B (3:20)

I love it. You diamond handed it all the way down to 3K.

A (3:23)

I did, man. And stacked more, you know, so DCA. DCA all the way down, all the way up. You know, try. Try to ride as much as I can, try to hang on to it as much as. As you can, and try learning as much as you can, really, because there's something new happening. I feel like, you know, every day in the space.

B (3:36)

Yeah, it's really cool, man. You could take loans out against your. Your balance. I've seen people do that to buy a house or whatever they want.

A (3:43)

Yeah, definitely. And, you know, there's. There's ways to do it that are responsible and there's the degen ways to do it. But, yeah, I mean, bitcoin, I think, is pristine collateral. Like, there's really no collateral that's better than bitcoin. So I think lenders are becoming more and more wise to this, and I think Pretty soon you'll be able to get a loan against bitcoin at a rate that's lower than a mortgage.

B (4:02)

Yeah, I mean, these days for sure, mortgages are like what, 10% right now?

A (4:06)

Yeah, I think 7, 8%. I mean, Bitcoin loans, because the traditional system doesn't really recognize it for what it is. You know, rates are still 12.

B (4:15)

Oh, really? Well, I had to do a bank statement loan and it was like 10.

A (4:19)

Okay.

B (4:19)

Yeah.

A (4:20)

So it's right there.

B (4:20)

Yeah, so it's getting closer and closer. That's exciting. Yeah, that's really exciting.

A (4:24)

No doubt.

B (4:25)

Seems like this administration's really crypto friendly too.

A (4:27)

Yeah, so that's been a huge development. I mean, just in the last, you know, six to eight months, we've. Our company has gotten closer to the administration. Our CEO David Bailey is an advisor to Trump on crypto. Trump was at our last conference in Nashville last year. We got J.D. vance coming to Vegas this year. A bunch of other politicians, Senator Cynthia Lummis will be there. And it's becoming a big part of the political conversation. And not only that, but I think nation states are starting to FOMO in as well. We saw the US pass the strategic Bitcoin reserve, or at least an executive order so far allowing authorizing the government to be able to buy and hold Bitcoin on its balance sheet. There's still some steps that we need to take, I think, in order for it to really be the kind of thing where we're spending money, like we're allocating dollars. That has to be done by Congress. And there is a bill in Congress that will vote on that. But right now you have to basically have it be budget neutral. So you have to sell assets in order to buy bitcoin. But it's a huge step, I mean, especially compared to the last administration where they were basically criminalizing everyone that was in the space. We have made a ton of progress, so it's very encouraging.

B (5:32)

I think every exchange based in the US got. Got in trouble.

A (5:35)

Pretty much, right? Yeah, pretty much every. Every exchange or, you know, any software company that was doing anything that the government didn't like or could. Could interpret it in a way that, you know, looked like a money transmitter or whatever was getting prosecuted.

B (5:48)

So crazy.

A (5:49)

Yeah, that's all stopping.

B (5:50)

So do you think banks are going to have to adopt crypto?

A (5:53)

Yeah, I think so. I think everybody, I mean, I think everybody eventually will have to figure out what they're going to do about bitcoin. It's one of those things where we're kind of past the point where we're trying to convince people. Yeah, and I'm talking bitcoin specifically, um, because I think it's a lot easier to defend. You know, there's, you know, say what you will about crypto and all that kind of stuff, there's just a different set of things happening that, you know, you have to figure out how to navigate and regulate. With bitcoin, it's a little bit different. And so it's inevitable in the sense that here we are 13 years in and prices continue to go, to go up. Sure, it's been volatile, but I think everybody's gonna have to, you know, just reckon with the fact that like this is here to stay. It's not going anywhere. And so even if you don't like it and you don't understand it, it's not going anywhere.

B (6:33)

Yeah, I mean, $1.3 trillion market cap right now.

A (6:36)

Right.

B (6:36)

It's about to hit all time high. All time high is 108, right?

A (6:39)

100, yeah. 108, 109, something like that.

B (6:41)

Crazy. We're at like 105 right now as we're filming this.

A (6:44)

103. 103.

B (6:45)

So it could be during the conference. That'd be nuts, right?

A (6:47)

Yeah, that would be very exciting.

B (6:48)

Does that happen before?

A (6:50)

I don't know if that's happened before, actually. Traditionally we have a history of seeing a little bit of a market correction after the conference. But I mean, I feel like this time is different. I feel like this cycle is. It's gone.

B (7:00)

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A (7:29)

A lot of different things happening. I mean, we didn't have this backdrop ever really. You know, I think the most bullish thing was, was Trump speaking at the conference last year. I think that was the biggest signal that like the institutions and the governments are coming. Three years ago, I think it was El Salvador announced that they were going to make bitcoin a legal tender. And so there has been a lot of kind of milestones but yeah, I mean the last six months have been incredibly bullish.

B (7:53)

Yeah. Do you still think because you hear about the four year cycle and the having thing, do you think that's going to keep repeating that pattern?

A (7:59)

So I actually don't. I'm pretty bullish. And you know, we have a meme in bitcoin that's like this time is different and we say that a lot, but I actually believe that because now I think bitcoin is going to still be, you know, volatile, still going to fluctuate a lot and maybe you have some pretty steep corrections. But what I think is over is kind of like this traditional four year cycle where the pullbacks are huge and it stays, we stay in like a low kind of bear market for a while. Just because there's so much buying pressure now. Right. You have a perfectly scarce asset. There's only 21 million. Bitcoin, there will only ever be 21 million. And so when you have all this buying pressure right now, corporations are buying more bitcoin than is being mined.

B (8:34)

Damn.

A (8:34)

So that's not sustainable. That's why we're seeing so much price action, the price action that we're seeing because, well, it's buying pressure and so that there, there are no signs of that slowing down. If anything is just getting faster. So I think the four year cycle is over.

B (8:50)

Wow. So it's going to speed and up, you're saying?

A (8:52)

Yeah, I mean there's really no other way of looking at. It's basically math. Right. You have, it's what you learned in economics. One on one, it's supply and demand. So yeah, nothing stops this trade is another meme like we are going to keep going up. I think million dollar bitcoin is right around the corner. You know, people thought $100,000 Bitcoin was crazy. I remember that retail isn't even here yet. You know, if you look at Google searches, people aren't even searching for bitcoin.

B (9:16)

Wow.

A (9:17)

And so right now it's all institutional demand. And so once retail catches up, it's just going to keep adding fuel to the fire.

B (9:24)

That's nuts. I still remember this kid in my high school 10 years ago was mining bitcoin and everyone bullied him. They're like, what are you doing? You know what I mean? He was ashamed to talk about it. He's chilling right now.

A (9:35)

I'm securing generational wealth is what I'm doing. Yeah, he's mining like what, his laptop.

B (9:40)

He had two computers that were mining back then. He's Chilling.

A (9:43)

If he kept it, I bet.

B (9:44)

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I was probably ten years ago is what, like five bucks?

A (9:48)

Something like that. I mean, I remember I wasn't in the space yet, but I remember you used to be able to just go on a website and enter a captcha and you would get 5 bitcoin just to spend. No. Yeah. What? Yeah, so, like, before it had, like, my market value. So it's like, here's five bitcoin. Just solve this caption.

B (10:01)

Oh, my gosh.

A (10:03)

Those days are over. But where 103k is actually crazy. I mean, you know, from. From 19k down to, like, the COVID crash, like 3k all the way back up to. To 103k. It's pretty. Pretty remarkable to see kind of how far we've come.

B (10:15)

Crazy. Are we ever going to know who made it, you think? One day?

A (10:18)

You know, it's a good question. I kind of hope not. I think the mystery of Satoshi Nakamoto is one of the most fascinating parts about bitcoin in a lot of ways, one of the most important parts. You know, if I had to guess, I'd say he's probably not alive.

B (10:33)

I've heard that theory.

A (10:34)

Just because it's, like, such a hard secret to keep, right?

B (10:37)

Yeah.

A (10:37)

And I've heard the theory of it's like, oh, it's multiple people. That'd be another thing. I'd be like, I don't know.

B (10:40)

The three people. One.

A (10:41)

Yeah. Three people. There's all sorts of those aliens, right?

B (10:44)

Yeah.

A (10:44)

Theory.

B (10:45)

CIA.

A (10:45)

CIA. Right. I think it's probably just a single person, and they're probably not alive anymore.

B (10:50)

Yeah.

A (10:51)

And that seems like the most likely. And I hope the coins never move. Hope the million coins that attributed to Satoshi never moved. I just think it's one of those things that's kind of like this weird mythical component to it that adds to why it's so extraordinary.

B (11:06)

Yeah. I love the Scottie Pippen clip of Michael Saylor giving him the side eye when he said he knew who the founder was. Was that at one of the conferences?

A (11:14)

That wasn't our conference. That was a random event. But he hasn't let up. Scotty's like, oh, Satoshi visited dream last night. Like, bro, chill.

B (11:22)

He's doubling Donald.

A (11:23)

Yeah. He's like, I know Satoshi, so, hey, good for him. Still. She visits you in a day, I guess. Like, that's hilarious.

B (11:29)

You guys have a few events a year, right?

A (11:31)

We do. Yeah. So we do. Our flagship event in the US this year. It's in Vegas. Last year it was in Nashville. Previous to that was in Miami. And we also have our international events coming up in Hong Kong later this year, as well as Abu Dhabi in December. And yeah, always looking to add more. We're in conversations right now with, you know, Tokyo.

B (11:51)

Wow.

A (11:52)

Philippines, all these different places. So should be a bitcoin conference on every continent for sure.

B (11:57)

That's exciting because governments, a lot of governments were opposed to bitcoin for a while.

A (12:01)

Yeah. And I think a lot of them still are, but they're becoming wise to the fact that this, you know, the game theory is playing out, so. Especially because now the US has made the move. Once the US Signals that it's safe, every other government is going to start following in, especially the superpowers. Like, you're going to see China, you see Russia, you're going to see big players in the Middle east start, start changing policies. And so all of this is very imminent. It's, it's right around the corner. And it's going to happen in different ways. Some countries are going to focus on, you know, how they're going to add bitcoin to their own treasury, to their own balance sheet as, as a nation state. Some are going to focus on regulations and how to make it easier for, you know, corporations to adopt, for individuals, for companies, start businesses. So it's going to look a little bit different in every location.

B (12:42)

I think it's smart no matter what country, because if you look at fiat currencies, all of them fail over time.

A (12:46)

Yeah.

B (12:47)

I don't think crypto has ever. I mean, it's pretty new, but doesn't seem to have failed with bitcoin at least.

A (12:52)

Yeah, that's, that, that's what's unique about bitcoin is you can, all you can really point to is the pullbacks as like, any sort of criticism. It's like, yeah, it's volatile. Yeah, price goes down. But if you bought at any point and held for, you know, I think it's, I think now the stat is like, at any point, if you bought and you held for at least 13 or 14 months, you're in the money.

B (13:09)

Damn.

A (13:10)

I think, don't necessarily quote me on that, but it's something crazy. Like there's like the stat that's like that. So it's very hard to criticize anything beyond that. So even that's like, okay, well, take any other asset literally, like take the S&P 500, you're not going to perform that well. And so, yeah, there's Definitely something happening that's very unique. And again, we're just getting started. Right. And so if we've reached sort of this escape velocity where at this point what you're seeing is corporations in particular fomoing in CEOs and CFOs at these major companies are basically starting to weigh the career risk of doing nothing. Right. Like, you don't want to be the guy that could have bought Bitcoin at 100k while all your peers are doing it. And now you have to explain to your shareholders why you didn't. And so kind of the narrative is starting to flip. It used to be a career risk to even talk about bitcoin in a boardroom or get kicked out. Exactly. You get laughed at, like your buddy who is mining on his laptop, but now it's kind of the script is being flipped. And so as more corporations FOMO in, as the price keeps going up, you know, the next leg, the next year that's going to drop is probably going to be retail. People are just going to be like, okay, well, I need to get my piece of this too. It's definitely a digital gold rush that's taking place right now.

B (14:21)

Yeah. Because there still is a lot of restrictions, like if you want to just log in coinbase, you can't deposit a certain amount of money.

A (14:26)

Right.

B (14:27)

I think the limit is like 10k, 25k or something.

A (14:29)

Yeah. I think it depends on kind of your financial profile. And there's different exchanges that have different limits and things like that, but there are definitely limitations. So hopefully those can become easier to navigate. But, you know, in the US we're fortunate that we. We have a lot of access, a lot of on ramps.

B (14:45)

Yeah. So I like what you said about the 13, 14 months, because when you do see people talking negatively about bitcoin, it's a lot of these day traders or people trying to make a quick flip, they hold it for like a month and then the market corrects and then they start talking shit about bitcoin.

A (14:57)

Right, Exactly. You know, yeah. Or, you know, I hope you guys.

B (15:00)

Are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.

A (15:06)

They wrote down their keys wrong. That's the other one. You know, I'm sure you've heard the story of the guy who had like 100 or a thousand Bitcoin or something on a hardware device or a laptop or something, and his girlfriend threw it out. Now it's in a landfill.

B (15:18)

Oh, yeah, I saw that one Bulldozers.

A (15:19)

Yeah. Spending a ton of money trying to recover it. And it's like in the news, it's like some sob story. It's like, I, you know, what do you want me to say to the guy you lost? It's like losing your, you know, bars of gold or losing a, you know, briefcase of cash.

B (15:33)

Yeah.

A (15:33)

Like, take better care of it.

B (15:34)

That's on you. You can't blame the currency for.

A (15:37)

That's your faul.

B (15:39)

What's some tips for. For attending the conference for first timers.

A (15:42)

And yeah, so if you're attending the conference, I mean, I would say figure out what your schedule is ahead of time because there's so much going on, you're not going to be able to do everything. You're not able to see everything, and, you know, make sure that you have all your tickets to the after parties. A lot of things sell out pretty early. Show up to big, big speakers early so you can get good seats. Definitely, you know, well, pass, if you can afford a VIP experience is the best way to do it. If not, there's, you know, we have industry pass. If you're someone who's looking to get into the space, if you already work in the space, if you're looking for a job in the space industry, the industry passes. The way to go. It extends the event to three days. Everyone else, I mean, a festival pass gets you in the door for the. The two ga days, which is Wednesday and Thursday. And yeah, man, just get ready to have, you know, late nights, meet a lot of people. You're going to be exhausted by the end of it, but it's going to be a great time.

B (16:37)

I can't wait. I got a will pass, and I'm really excited, man. Go big or go home. Let's go.

A (16:42)

I'm pumped to see it in Vegas. I mean, it's, you know, every city kind of brings its own flavor to it. Vegas is obviously very unique in that it kind of, I think, takes over a lot of the vibes in a lot of ways. Like, you know, you're in Vegas. And so I think that's going to be a really cool thing to kind of just walk through the Venetian, see bitcoiners everywhere.

B (16:57)

Yep.

A (16:57)

It's going to feel like a big reunion.

B (16:59)

So you guys picked the best hotel in Vegas.

A (17:00)

Yes.

B (17:00)

Venetian is my favorite. It's not even close.

A (17:03)

Shout out to our op scene for.

B (17:04)

Yeah, whenever I do staycations. Venetian, man.

A (17:07)

Really?

B (17:07)

Yeah, It's a blast. Have you been there yet?

A (17:09)

I haven't.

B (17:09)

You're gonna love it.

A (17:10)

I'm gonna check it out tonight.

B (17:11)

Where are you staying at these days?

A (17:13)

I'm staying at the Venetian.

B (17:14)

No, like, where do you live at? I guess. Or where are you based?

A (17:18)

I am based in Phoenix, Arizona.

B (17:20)

Oh, nice. Similar environment to Vegas.

A (17:21)

Yes. Very hot all the time, but I love it. I love the heat.

B (17:25)

Yeah.

A (17:25)

I was born in Egypt, so, like, my skin is like. Like, Arizona is like the closest thing to Egypt in the US I feel like.

B (17:30)

Wow. You were born in Egypt?

A (17:31)

Yeah.

B (17:32)

Oh, we got to talk. I've always wanted to go there.

A (17:33)

Oh, man, it's beautiful. Yeah, you definitely got to go.

B (17:35)

Yeah, I have some Syrian lineage, so really I want to explore it.

A (17:38)

Have you been into the Middle east at all?

B (17:40)

No, not at all.

A (17:42)

You got to go.

B (17:43)

I feel like that's a really up and coming market.

A (17:45)

Yeah, the Middle East, Absolutely. I mean, I just got back from Saudi a few weeks ago. Incredible place. You know, definitely recommend going to get a chance and then Abu Dhabi in December. Join us. Bitcoin conference. Yeah.

B (17:58)

No capital gains tax over there, right?

A (18:00)

Yeah. And I think they just announced today actually that their sovereign wealth fund is buying bitcoin, so.

B (18:04)

Really? Wow. Are there really big, like, hedge funds buying bitcoin yet?

A (18:08)

Yeah. Oh, yeah, big hedge fund. I mean, big hedge funds, big corporations investing into bitcoin companies, adding bitcoin to their balance sheet, issuing debt to buy more bitcoin, you name it. Everything. Everything. Corporate adoption is happening at a very, very rapid pace. I mean, it feels like every day there's a new company announcing a. A bitcoin treasury strategy, which I think is interesting too, because if you think about what MicroStrategy has done, right, they went from being a $1 billion software company to pivoting entirely into Bitcoin. Now they're over $100 billion valuation. They have half a million dollar, half a million bitcoin on their balance sheet. And all these copycats now kind of following the same playbook. But they have. They have kind of this escape velocity of their own where it's like no one's going to catch them unless, like an Apple or Microsoft comes in and is like, all right, we have that kind of cash to just out there. But I think what's interesting is you look at their stock and people are buying their stock because they have bitcoin on their balance sheet. Not just retail investors, but I think, you know, the bigger investors who don't, who want to have bitcoin exposure but can't buy bitcoin because of, you know, regulatory restrictions or whatever. And so they're opening up these pools of capital that want bitcoin. There's demand for bitcoin, but they can't be satisfied because of whatever restrictions. But I think what's really fascinating is that their stock price is now being more appropriately measured because they have bitcoin on the balance sheet. And same with these copycat companies. Their stock prices are going up. People are like, oh, this company's actually valuable. It's holding bitcoin. Interesting. And the reason that's interesting, I think, is because if you just think about stocks in general, like, why do you buy a stock? You buy a stock because you believe in the company, you believe in its business model, you believe in its founders. And you're like, I'm going to buy this stock because I think it's going to perform well. Right. And we know how the stock market actually works. It doesn't necessarily correlate with the performance of the company. But I think what's happening is these companies add bitcoin to the balance sheet is everything is kind of being repriced in bitcoin. And so it's not just going to be these corporate treasury companies, these bitcoin treasury companies. It's going to be every company. Every company is going to put bitcoin on its balance sheet. And then you're going to look at the market and it's not just going to be how much bitcoin do you have in order to figure out the value, Then you're going to actually start looking at the company's performance again. So it's almost like everything is being like there's a new. There's a new baseline being set. Right. And bitcoin's at the foundation. I don't know if that made sense.

B (20:31)

No, it does. That's really interesting. I didn't even connect the two dots on that.

A (20:35)

Yeah.

B (20:35)

I didn't realize it was affecting stock prices.

A (20:37)

Oh, yeah. I mean, that's, that's the big play is like their stock goes up, they issue more debt, they buy more bitcoin, and they just keep repeating the cycle. It's like an infinite money glitch.

B (20:44)

I mean, logically it makes sense because US dollar is going down every day. So if I'm investing in a stock, I'd prefer a company that had bitcoin over dollars.

A (20:51)

Right.

B (20:52)

At least some percentage. Right. Makes sense.

A (20:54)

Yeah. Like, why wouldn't you?

B (20:55)

Yeah. I always tell my friends this Michael Saylor, he might go down as the goat of investing.

A (21:00)

Yes.

B (21:00)

In like 1020 years. We'll see how it plays out.

A (21:02)

Maybe even sooner. I mean, I think, I think strategy is going to be they rebranded. They're not microstrategy, more of the strategy. I think they might become the most valuable company on planet Earth. Like that's where they're. That's what their base is right now.

B (21:14)

So I mean, it might. Bitcoin has a million. They might be right.

A (21:18)

Yeah.

B (21:19)

Holy crap.

A (21:19)

Yeah.

B (21:20)

He used to get a lot of hate when he first started investing in bitcoin. He still gets hate, but.

A (21:24)

He still gets hate, but it's quieting down. It's hard. It's hard to like criticize that success story.

B (21:30)

There's a new era. Warren Buffett just retired yesterday. I saw that you had the older heads, Charlie Munger, they were all against crypto. But I think it's a new era. Right?

A (21:38)

Yeah. People are starting to capitulate, like long, longtime critics. Who's the one? Oh, Dave Ramsey. You saw this financial guru, he's been hating on bitcoin for a long time. Just recently started changing his.

B (21:48)

No way. That's the anti debt guy, right?

A (21:51)

Yeah, yeah, I can't.

B (21:52)

But I've never seen him change a stand, so I'm like so surprised with that.

A (21:55)

Yeah. Huge. So, you know, hopefully, you know, the Thanksgiving conversations become a little bit more tolerable when you're talking to your family members about it.

B (22:04)

You guys got some great faces now. I think Robert Kiyosaki is big, big on bitcoin. There's a few guys I feel that approaching it.

A (22:09)

Yeah. Brian Johnson, he's going to be speaking. Yeah, it's a lot of just like mainstream celebrities. We had the Russell Brand last year.

B (22:16)

Nice.

A (22:17)

So it's happening, man.

B (22:19)

That's cool, man. Well, what's next for you? What's next for BTC Inc. Where can people keep up with everything?

A (22:25)

So what's next for me? Going to keep focusing on corporate adoption. I think that's the, the narrative of this cycle. I mean, when I got in the space and I kind of became convinced that bitcoin is the future, I basically just started telling everyone that I could in whatever way I could. Written a couple books. Thank God for bitcoin was one. That's the subtitles. The Creation, Corruption and redemption of Money. So it kind of follows the story of what even is money. And then wrote a parenting book that's targeted at bitcoiners. Now that bitcoin is talked about so much, it's like, how do bitcoiners parent? And I'M kind of coming from a place of parenting in the 21st century has become kind of weak. It's become just like kind of this like passive. And so I'm trying to restore this like the being an authority figure in your kids life.

B (23:10)

Love it.

A (23:11)

And so it's called I'm not your bruh 21 keys to sound parenting. And so it just kind of follows what my wife and I did through our parenting journey of our two kids. And then yeah, BTC Inc. We are, we're going to continue to keep building. We're going to keep launching conferences and bitcoin magazine media in different markets and keep growing corporate bitcoin adoption keep accelerating. This is definitely happening.

B (23:36)

Let's go. We'll link everything below. We'll link the books. Thanks for coming on, man.

A (23:39)

Yeah, thanks for having me.

B (23:39)

Yeah, I'll see you at the conference. See you guys.