Has Feminism DESTROYED America? DSH #1834

Summary

Podcast Summary: Digital Social Hour – "Has Feminism DESTROYED America?" (DSH #1834)

Host: Sean Kelly
Guests: Kyla (philosopher and fourth-wave feminist) and Hannah (conservative Christian activist)
Date: February 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this spirited episode, host Sean Kelly moderates a debate between Kyla, a self-described fourth-wave feminist, and Hannah, a Christian writer and activist, on one of today's most polarizing questions: Has feminism been detrimental or beneficial to American society? Both women trace their worldviews through personal stories, philosophy, and biblical analysis while wrestling live with the legacy, definition, and outcomes—both intended and unintended—of the feminist movement. The conversation wades deep into history, theology, economics, and social change, highlighting the nuances within and between opposing positions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introductions and Personal Journeys ([01:26]–[03:51])

• Hannah shares her background in conservative activism, her Christian upbringing, and her motivation drawn from family tragedy and concern with the medical industry's policies around gender.
• Kyla recounts her shift from fundamentalist Christian anti-feminism, to embracing "third-wave lib femme" ideas at university, later becoming anti-feminist again, until ultimately reclaiming feminism based on "empowerment of women's agency and the promotion of femininity," despite her negative feelings toward many feminists.

"I'm a feminist because I fundamentally have been convinced that I agree with the idea, regardless of how I feel about feminists, which I feel very negatively about many feminists." — Kyla [03:24]

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2. Defining Feminism ([03:51]–[04:59])

• Kyla proposes that feminism should be defined as "the empowerment of women's agency and the promotion of femininity."
• Hannah prefers the more traditional "fighting for equality of the sexes," but notes the definition is hotly contested, especially with the intersectional focus of fourth-wave feminism.

"Most feminists would agree, regardless of the wave, they want women to have access to more opportunities and more choice, by and large." — Kyla [04:34]

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3. Historical Perspective and Biblical Arguments ([05:12]–[12:23])

• Hannah invokes Genesis and the fall of Adam and Eve as an allegorical starting point for the "ideas of feminine rebellion" and the "correct order" intended by God: man as leader, woman as helpmate.
• Kyla counters with the argument that the central Christian value is free will and choice, and that attempts to limit women's agency betray that principle.
• Both guests discuss how broken or "rebellious" women—such as early feminists like Mary Wollstonecraft—played roles in societal change, and whether that invalidates the movement or reflects God’s choice to use broken people.

"Isn't it beautiful that God works through broken people? ...I don't want to look at these women's trauma histories...and go, because they're broken, the movement itself is tarnished." — Kyla [15:12]

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4. Has Feminism Made America Better or Worse? ([13:59]–[23:40])

• Hannah asserts that widespread societal unhappiness and the "breakdown of the family unit" are correlated with feminism's influence.
• Kyla credits the movement for providing choices to women (voting, banking, working) and argues that withholding these is not biblically mandated nor historically consistent.
• Debate on economic outcomes: Kyla insists that women's entrance into the workforce was inevitable and necessary for US competitive power, not just a matter of social change.

"Feminism is inevitable. If you don't have a competitive global GDP, your enemies will militarily dominate you...Access to 50% additional labor..." — Kyla [22:02]

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5. Workforce Participation, Family, and Gender Roles ([23:20]–[29:29])

• Hannah says she doesn’t oppose women working, as long as family remains their priority.
• Kyla critiques how Christianity sometimes idealizes men sacrificing family connection for provision, leading to regret.
• Both agree the modern economy complicates traditional roles, but attribute root causes differently—Kyla blaming wealth inequality and corporate power, Hannah blaming moral and policy decline.

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6. Moral Agency, Choice, and Social Outcomes ([29:29]–[34:26])

• Kyla asserts that the moral value lies in agency: "If God allowed freedom even to choose wrongly, so should we."
• Hannah agrees society requires laws to limit choice for the greater good, e.g., around abortion, prostitution.
• Discussion intensifies over bathrooms, trans rights, and whether feminism is responsible for the existence of these debates.

"When you limit women's ability to choose, you are making it so that when they do good behavior, it's just survival. And that's not... noble." — Kyla [18:29]

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7. Is Feminism Inevitable and Necessary? ([36:01]–[40:18])

• Kyla argues for the practical necessity of feminism—without it, modern nations can't compete, and agency inevitably expands with economic participation.
• Hannah concedes some feminism-driven changes are beneficial, but maintains that overall the movement caused negative cultural shifts, especially regarding gender and sexuality.

"There are things I agree with... But as a whole, the feminist movement has led to men in women's bathrooms, men in women's spaces...the gender divide is worse than it has ever been." — Hannah [39:45]

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8. Intersectionality, Race, and Internal Critique ([42:14]–[43:50])

• Both discuss the racist roots and internal contradictions of early feminism and Planned Parenthood.
• Kyla claims modern feminism tries to correct these issues, and asserts that choice, not virtue, is the moral good.

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9. Christianity and the Evolution of Gender Roles ([49:39]–[52:13])

• Debate over how much biblical gender rules have changed, and whether moral standards in the Bible are "objective" or context-relative.

"God is objective. But the relative part doesn't relativism in the Bible...Relativity is just about context." — Kyla [52:20]

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10. Abortion, Free Will, and Law ([52:58]–[54:52])

• Abortion arises as a key flashpoint, viewed by Hannah as central evidence of feminism's moral failings.
• Kyla concedes abortion is tied to feminism but argues laws and morality are not identical; political persuasion, not coercion, is the Christian way.

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11. Final Statements ([57:12]–[62:19])

• Hannah: Decries prostitution, abortion, and sexual objectification as legacies of feminism; says with "great freedom comes great responsibility," and law must set boundaries for public morality.
• Kyla: Warns against blaming all social ills on feminism, highlighting the complexity of cultural change; reaffirms her position that empowering agency is the essence of both feminism and Christianity.

"God allowed humanity to choose death when they had perfection. Why would we ever assume we are smarter than God to rob people of their choice?" — Kyla [61:43]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Exchanges

• On the Principle of Agency:

  • "Agency is the difference between choosing salvation and God and goodness, or being a slave to moral virtue by necessity of survival." — Kyla [10:52]
  • "If God made space for people to choose, even the ignoble, even the wrong thing, I think one of the most dangerous things that we do as Christians is we try to reduce that choice." — Kyla [11:13]

• On History and Outcomes:

  • "Are these women broken? Yeah, of course. But that's the point of faith in Christ, is that in brokenness, God can utilize that." — Kyla [15:15]

• On the Feminist Legacy:

  • "I have a credit card...I can vote...I have freedom of mobility...I have increased agency to do both noble and ignoble. That's...good." — Kyla [16:57]
  • "I do believe that the gender divide is worse than it has ever been, largely." — Hannah [40:03]

• On Blame and Causality:

  • "We want to find a really simple, easy, sexy boogeyman, and then we want to lay at its feet everything that we don't like. That's...not how we solve the world's problems." — Kyla [59:34]

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Important Timestamps

• [01:26] – Introductions
• [03:51] – Defining Feminism
• [05:12] – History & Biblical Arguments
• [12:23] – Agency & Choice in Christianity
• [22:00] – Economic Argument for Feminism
• [23:20] – Is Society Better or Worse?
• [36:01] – Is Feminism Inevitable/Necessary?
• [42:14] – Intersectionality & Internal Critique
• [49:39] – Christianity and Changing Gender Roles
• [57:12] – Final Statements

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a nuanced, often fiery but ultimately respectful exchange on the lasting impacts of feminism in America. Kyla and Hannah model how a debate can traverse philosophy, personal faith, social science, and lived experience—without shying away from deeply held convictions. Kyla champions agency and the moral good of choice, tying it explicitly to Christian theology, while Hannah is steadfast that not all choices allowed by feminism are, in fact, moral or beneficial for society. Both recognize complexity in the movement’s history, its achievements, and its failures.

The episode will resonate with anyone interested in the intersection of faith, gender, and society, and provides ample food for thought on the costs and consequences—intended or not—of social change.

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Note: Timestamps omit ads, show intro/outro, and sponsor messages.
Host: @SeanKelly
Guests: @Kyla, @Hannah

Transcript

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[Kyla]

You approve a woman's right to vote? Like you think that's a good thing.

[Hannah]

I don't agree with their motivation.

[Kyla]

There is way less people. But when you actually look at the numbers, which we don't even have good numbers because wasn't a crime. So how do you even track this? How do you even get people to self report for a thing that you can't even acknowledge? And if a woman is in a situation where she's being maritally, she probably doesn't want to go to like a random like survey nerd and be like, ah, I guess my husband is, you know, me.

[Podcast Host (Sean)]

Okay, we are rolling. We're at Amfest. We're gonna have a friendly little conversation today slash debate about feminism. We got Hannah here and Kyla back on the show. I think we'll start off with short little introductions for people that don't know these ladies and then we'll go into definitions of feminism and then start off the debate. Who wants to lead off?

[Kyla]

Go ahead.

[Hannah]

Okay, a little bit about myself. So I am 18. I got involved originally with Turning Point USA when I was 13, started a Turning Point CH, did events here and there. And then when I was 15, my 7 year old sister was paralyzed in a freak swimming accident that paralyzed her from the chest down. Led me to see what was happening in the medical industry and really how the LGBTQ movement was being pushed onto the children. I ended up hosting a Teens Against Gender mutilation rally that led me to be in a BBC documentary and really just talk about my family values and the family that I come from. So I'm debating you because I come from a strong family and I'm very blessed to be here in America and now do podcast. I've written a book right here and there. But yeah, it's a little bit about a little bit of a background.

[Kyla]

Cool.

[Hannah]

Tala.

[Kyla]

So I grew up a fundamentalist Christian from Canada. So I was very anti feminist most of my life. Then I went to college and my philosophy professor convinced me to, I would say like a pretty silly, like third wave lib femme feminism where I was like, boys and girls are identically the same and the only reason we do worse at sports is because of socialization. And then I started dating my husband and he was like, watch these 15 year old boys play gold Olympic women at soccer. And I was like, oh, rip. So then I became actually an anti feminist. I only identified again with the label feminism about a year and a half ago. And it's the same reason that I identify with any label that I kind of take to my heart, which is that if I fundamentally agree with the idea within it, regardless of how I feel about the people, I'm going to hold to it. I have a lot of issues with Christianity, I have a lot of issues with Christians. But I love God and I love my faith, which is why I'm a Christian, despite being in a liberal space where it only does me public harm for my PR and my branding. I'm a feminist because I fundamentally have been convinced that I agree with the idea regardless of how I feel about feminists, which I feel very negatively about many feminists. So you feel negatively about many feminists? Oh, many feminists. I think they misstep a lot of time. So that's why I'm a feminist, is because I have earned it ideologically, I suppose.

[Podcast Host (Sean)]

I think we should agree on a definition of feminism.

[Kyla]

Yeah. So the one that I like to use is feminism is the empowerment of women's agency and the promotion of femininity.

[Podcast Host (Sean)]

Do you agree with that or do I say.

[Hannah]

Well, I mean the basic definition like that most of the feminist organizations would agree on is that it is a battle of what? For women's rights, on the equality of the sexes. Basically fighting for the equality of the sexes.

[Kyla]

The reason I can't grant that is fourth wave, for example, has a very interesting relationship with the word equality because I don't know if you're familiar with all the waves. I feel you probably are. I think you're quite educated on this. Fourth wave doesn't really embrace the lib femme third Wave idea that we need to just be like, equal in always. Fourth wave is very intersectional in recognizing that, like, people are very different. Yeah. So when I say feminism, when we say, like, equality, I basically go, what does that mean? Which is why I say empowerment of women's agency. Most feminists would agree, regardless of the wave, they want women to have access to more opportunities and more choice, by and large. And they want femininity itself, the constructs associated with femininity to be viewed as something respect worthy, particularly within the fourth wave.

[Hannah]

I guess we probably would disagree a little bit on the. The basis of, like, the feminist definition. Yeah, I. I think this would go in probably into the next segment on, like, the history of feminism, I guess, to understand why we're even here.

[Podcast Host (Sean)]

Right.

[Hannah]

As a culture, and we have all these different ways of feminism to understand. Like the beginning, even with, like, Mary Wollstonecraft, of course, like, labeled as one of the first feminists even in the 1700s, even though she never, like, identified herself as a feminist, obviously her ideals and what she advocated for was well recognized with the feminist movement as a whole.

[Kyla]

I think that the thing you point out, right. That ideals piece, is why, like, when I go about defining things, just so you have a background of like, my very nerdy philosophy, brain definitions should be functional and fundamental to me. They should be the things that through. Through lines can kind of be found kind of regardless of how something emerges. So feminism, while you would say she didn't identify as a feminist because it wasn't, it didn't exist yet. There's probably ideas that are through. She probably was for the empowerment of women's agencies. She probably wanted to promote femininity. And what that looked like for her at that time, obviously is different than what it needs to look like now. But she would probably agree with these fundamentals. That's why I like this functional thing, because it's like, of course we can identify people historically as feminists despite the movement not existing. Which is why I don't want to tie the definition to the movement itself. I want to tie it to the ideas the movement purports.

[Podcast Host (Sean)]

I think overall the main debate here today was, is feminine? Is feminism good for America? Right. So do you want to start off with your take on that?

[Hannah]

Yeah. So I guess just to begin with, going back to, like, the history of the feminist movement of feminism, for me, as a Christian, obviously we started. I don't know if you mentioned this in the beginning of the episode or if we touched on this before. I don't know if we were reporting then, but from a Christian standpoint, obviously we go back to the beginning of the Bible. In the book of Genesis, we look at the fall of Adam and Eve. I believe that that's kind of when the ideas of feminine, like you said, you're bringing in the ideas, which I agree with you on that. Like, there's ideas throughout all of history that didn't really have a label on it, as you said, but this had contributed to the movement as a whole that we see today.

[Kyla]

Right.

[Hannah]

So in the, in the beginning, you know, God created the heavens and the earth, right? We have Adam, we have Eve. It was. Everything was perfect. There was no sin, there was no flaw. God said, you cannot eat of this one tree. That's it. Well, Adam or Eve was deceived by the serpent, right? She ate the fruit. And God called Adam, he said, adam, where are you? After she ate the fruit, Adam knew that they had done something wrong. It says very clear in scripture that Adam wasn't deceived. Eve was deceived. And why?

[Kyla]

Because Adam took.

[Hannah]

Right, sorry.

[Kyla]

He still partook. He ate the apples.

[Hannah]

Oh, absolutely. He was the leader.

[Kyla]

He.

[Hannah]

He is. He had failed in the garden. And I think this is the picture of God's original design for mankind. Like God created order. You have a man, you have a woman. Man has a very significant role. Women have a very significant role in society. Men are called to lead, protect, provide. Adam failed in the Garden of Eden because he was not guarding Eve's heart. And that's why God said, adam, where are you? He didn't say, eve, where are you? Because Adam, God called Adam to be the leader of the family unit from the beginning, right? And so that we said, see Eve obviously eating the fruit, she was basing her decision off of emotion. I want to be like God. I want to know as much as God. I may even want to be more than God.

[Kyla]

Right. I don't think we can. So I think all of that into that.

[Hannah]

But, well, that's what it is. That's what the serpent was telling Eve is that, do you want to know more than God?

[Kyla]

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[Kyla]

Shawn, so do you agree with like a d? Uh, he, he viewed the marriage to women as marrying death.

[Hannah]

Marriage to women as marrying death.

[Kyla]

Augustine said if you must get married, which he viewed as a very bad thing, but if you have to, basically if you can't control your sexual impulses, you should get married. But you're marrying death.

[Hannah]

I think marriage is a gift. Marriage is a gift. I mean we're not all entitled to, to marriage, of course. Um, but it is a gift from God. And I do think that both when a man, I think this is something that the feminist movement as a whole does get wrong is that we always love to say, well, women have to, when they get married, they have to do X, Y and Z, right? They have to help their husband with this and they have to stop their career, right? That's something that we hear a lot from the feminist move. Even when I was in the BBC documentary, they said, well, what about the men? Right? Well, the man has to do a lot when he gets married. He has to put down his. If he's doing it the right way, he has to lay down his own selfish desires. You're going to have to skip out on some, you know, buddy nights, your boys nights. You're going to have to put your family first. So it is a, it is not a 50, 50 ordeal when it comes to marriage and the way that God originally designed it to be. It is both of them put their all into it for the family and for the betterment of this country.

[Kyla]

So when I talk about feminism, I talk about choice, right? Choice is the most important thing. So my presumption of feminism is twofold. One, there's a practical argument which is that it's inevitable and necessary. Two is that it's a moral good. And the reason that I think it's a moral good is because it's a round choice. Choice is the fundamental piece of Christian salvation. It's the fundamental thing. Agency is the difference between choosing salvation and God and goodness, or being a slave to moral virtue by necessity of survival. What happened in the garden is a necessity of God creating a space of choice. Right. And I think one thing that gets very warped is, did Eve get deceived? Yes, absolutely. That's. That's his story. The problem is that we want to look at that and use it to castigate women. We want to use it to castigate women's capacity to choose. And I think one of the most important things is that if God made space for people to choose, even the ignoble, even the wrong thing, I think one of the most dangerous things that we do as Christians is we try to reduce that choice. I don't have any problem with women who want to be mothers. I think motherhood's beautiful. I think it's wonderful. And I think a lot of fourth wave feminists would look at the way that third wave, especially kind of neglected feminine roles and viewed them as lesser because they weren't male roles. I think that's bad. Right. I want women to choose to stay at home with their children if they want to. I just also want them to be able to choose not to if that's what's the best choice for them, even if I disagree with their choice.

[Hannah]

So something that I hear a lot, and I don't want to put this on you because everybody is going to disagree. We were just talking about a girl, Sarah Stock. I like a lot of the things that Sarah Stock says. We're both in the conservative movement, but we also have a lot of disagreements. So if I say something that I might say that a feminist from the BBC documentary says, you might disagree with it. And that's totally fine.

[Kyla]

That's.

[Hannah]

We live in America. We have freedom of speech and freedom of will to choose. If we don't, like you said choice, it's a beautiful thing. And I think that's the beauty of Christianity is we do have free will.

[Kyla]

Right?

[Hannah]

We can reject God, we can reject his design. I do believe we will pay the consequence for that. And I think our society as a whole is paying the consequences of going and subverting God's. Original design for mankind.

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[Hannah]

Because now, I mean look at women. Women and men both are the most unhappy, they're the most suicidal, most depressed, most anxiety r a generation of, of men and women. And I, I don't think that's any coincidence. And obviously when we look even to the feminist movement, the founding feminists, right? Something that concerns me, and I'm actually kind of curious your thoughts on this. Something that concerns me is when you look at the founding feminist, Mary Wollstonecraft came from a very broken family, right? Her father was abusive to her mother, he was beating her, he neglected the children. And she almost had this like rebellious sense of her, that she was angry, she was angry at her father. She ended up having a child out of wedlock with a man who ended up cheating on her, leaving her, then moving on to another man who had a child out of wedlock with him. And so there was a lot of, of confusion in Mary Wollstonecraft's life who's been deemed as like the first feminist from the 1700s, right? Then you move on even to like the sexual revolution type of feminist. Betty Frieden wrote the feminine mystique also came from a very broken out. And we could go through like feminist after feminist after feminist. And a lot of them came from very broken or very legalistic households. And they almost were like, I'm done with this.

[Kyla]

Isn't it beautiful that God works through broken people? I mean, look at, look at, look at the fathers of Christianity, right? Look at Abraham or Jacob. Jacob is the worst. He steals his brother's inheritance through deception, while his brother is at his worst. His brother believes he's going to die.

[Hannah]

So I guess for that.

[Kyla]

Yeah. Just so I can fully rebut. Right. The Bible, the whole narrative of the Bible over and over and over again is very broken, very often bad people who lead to the glorification of God. Are these women broken? Yeah, of course. But that's. That's the point of faith in Christ, is that in brokenness, God can utilize that. Right. I don't want to look at these women's trauma histories, which might bias them, particularly against men, and go. Because they're broken, because they might have had biases. The movement itself is tarnished or the ideas of it are wrong. Jacob sucked. Jacob stole. He. Then what did his sons do? They went into a village that was giving them care. Right. They're protecting them while they're on their travels. And his sons went and murdered all of them. Right. Jacob is awful. All we see through the Bible is kind of crappy, people getting used by God for the glory of him. And so. And in the process, they make errors every step of the way. Which is why I don't like the. The attacking of the character of feminists as broken as an evidence of why the movement is bad.

[Hannah]

I would definitely concede as saying, like, God 100% uses broken people for his glory. Right. But what was the end result of all of their decisions? It was the glorification of God. I would maybe further that by saying, like, what have these broken women that led the feminist movement? How have they glorified God through their actions?

[Kyla]

We can be here talking. We can be here talking. I have a credit card that I can use to help me pay for this. I can wear pants if I choose to. I can vote. I get to participate in a democracy. I get to work any job that I would like to do. I have freedom of mobility. I have freedom of occupation, decision making. I have. I have an increased agency to do both noble and ignoble. That's. That is good. The increased agency of.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I don't think any of those are inherently wrong or bad. Now. A lot of those are new things. Like, we didn't have credit cards back in the 1700s, 1800s. Like, those kinds of things didn't even exist for men. So a lot of these things are even new to both men and women. A lot of people use that argument to justify the feminist move as a whole. But both. A lot of those things like bank accounts are very new for both men and women.

[Kyla]

Sure. But again, the disparity isn't saying, look at this new tech that we have access to. The disparity is to say, why is it the case that women had to fight to have access for it when men didn't? It was just a given that men get it. And I don't think that that's biblical, Right. If you look at the way that, like ancient Hebrew women, for example, are characterized, they're nobleized as women of the house. They make so many decisions. We see this over and over as this, like, glorification of the women's role. Paul, unlike all of the Hebrews at the time, encouraged them to come in to the synagogue and listen. They could pray, they could prophesy, right? Deborah prophesied. Esther was a queen who freed her people. Right. This idea that I think has gotten very warped in particularly Christianity is while there is a beauty in a subservience and a submission that occurs that is called for between a man and wife, the problem is that what we see through society is a perversion of this, right? When we look at society and we see, for example, women who don't even have the capacity to leave bad relationships, right? That's not what God wants. That's not a good thing. And while you can say all of this extra choice also led to worse things, I would just grant you that the thing that's noble here is the choice. When you limit women's ability to choose, you are making it so that when they do good behavior, it's just survival. And that's not. That's not noble. That's not what we strive for.

[Hannah]

So I guess I definitely agree with you on the, on Deborah. I don't, I don't think we disagree on a. A whole lot. I think we maybe disagree on the, the way that the end result would be of these movements, right?

[Kyla]

You approve a woman's right to vote. Like, you think that's a good thing.

[Hannah]

I don't agree with their motivation. Actually. A lot of the, A lot of the women who actually a large majority, I always probably say, I'm not going to give a direct sack because I don't have it. But a good portion of the feminist and those, the suffragettes were basing their movement off of that they were angry that black men were getting the right to vote who they thought were very uneducated individuals. They were angry that black men who they called uneducated were getting the right to vote before white educated women.

[Kyla]

Yeah, very Very big problem.

[Hannah]

But I do agree with the again the biblical standpoint. Again like voting.

[Kyla]

We didn't.

[Hannah]

We don't really see this in the Bible. So we're kind of going with this.

[Kyla]

Right. The Bible 100%.

[Hannah]

But I think from the biblical standpoint, like the man being the head of the household leading his family. I think our country would be in a much better place if it was a household vote. 100 household. And if you are not contributing to society I don't think you should be able to vote. So I don't even think I'm not going to advocate for repealing the 19th. I think we've talked about this before on the show because it's not going to happen. I'm not going to just sit here and advocate for us.

[Kyla]

Sure. But I'm asking your ideal world as well.

[Hannah]

The ideal perspective would I think also could be important. I, I would find myself advocating for a household vote or if you are not contributing to society, paying taxes, you don't have a job.

[Kyla]

I don't think you think women should be able to work.

[Hannah]

Women have always contributed to society from.

[Kyla]

That's not what I'm at.

[Hannah]

100%. Look at Proverbs 31. She was an entrepreneur. She was out there in the fields from. From the beginning of time. Women have always. They've had little businesses in their home. If it's out of their home and their family is foot first, I don't have a problem.

[Kyla]

So do you have an issue with a woman becoming a W2 employee working like 40 hours a week?

[Hannah]

Is her family being put first by that?

[Kyla]

As much as you can in this economy. As much as the husband is too. Right.

[Hannah]

And also that has become a problem too. Our economy is so messed up it's hard for even people to even have one health.

[Kyla]

But feminism isn't the cause of economy. We can go into economics. Right. But feminism is not the thing to be blamed for. Why dual households. Right. So feminine. We want to go back for example to the practical argument.

[Hannah]

But you said like it's hard for women to even stay home in the first place because our economy is so bad. But the feminist movement is what has advocated for women to get out of the hole.

[Kyla]

Well why. Why did women enter the workforce?

[Hannah]

You tell me.

[Kyla]

Okay. So I guess can I back us up a little bit? Do you agree that the ability to protect your own society militarily is good for society? 100%. Okay. What do you need to to fund your military?

[Hannah]

Oh you need hardworking citizens who are out there Working to fund the. I mean, to pay taxes and contribute. Yeah, gdp.

[Kyla]

Right. So what's really, really important, this is. This goes to my practical argument for feminism. Feminism is also inevitable. Right. And necessary. So if you look. So when I talk about gdp, a lot of people hear GDP go up. That's not my argument. If you don't have a competitive global gdp, your enemies will militarily dominate you. Which is why in all Western democracies, in the most successful military countries and the most successful GDP countries, women have entered the workforce because you have Access now to 50% additional labor, 50% additional creativity, 50% additional innovation. Right. So even from a very practical standpoint, feminism is an inevitability. Right. So, yes, back in Proverbs 31 time, women might be able to occupy that role. That's fine. The reality is that women are just occupying a similar role of caring for their family in a different modern technological landscape. Yeah.

[Hannah]

Do you think that women are better off, happier overall, just in a better place, both men and women, actually? Because I do believe feminism is not just. It does not just affect women, it affects men as well. So do you think that our country as a whole is better off today in 2025 because of the feminist movement? Or was it better off for prior, like, before.

[Kyla]

Like before 1950s? Like, what's before?

[Hannah]

I mean, we could even just say prior to the.

[Kyla]

I think America's in a better state today than it was in, like, 1750.

[Hannah]

Do you think the dynamic.

[Kyla]

Let me.

[Hannah]

Let me rephrase that. Do you think that the dynamic between male and female is better off today than it has been prior to all waves of feminism?

[Kyla]

I have a suspicion that gender dynamics have always been though the way they are, and they just present in different ways. Right now we have unique ills facing men and women in dating, particularly, for example, men are incredibly anxious to approach women. Right. And I think that there's a lot of issues in this, some of which is from feminism. A lot of it's from social media. Right. I think a lot of times we want to lay at the feet things that don't belong to feminism that better belong to, like, neutral.

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[Kyla]

Sean, do I think society's better than like 200 years ago? 100 years ago? Yeah. Are there new ills? Yes. We can talk about wealth disparity and I'm happy to do so, but I

[Hannah]

wouldn't lay this at feminist feet from a Christian standpoint. And I'm going to debate this since obviously you said you're a Christian. Every generation, every country has had its own problems. But one of the number one causes through all empires, all civilizations, has been the breakdown of the family unit between one man and one woman. Like that has been almost the leading cause of all civilizations collapsing was that either the men were hypersexualized by something or there was just again the dynamic between men and women. It felt like, yes, if you don't have, you don't have strong families.

[Kyla]

No.

[Hannah]

A civilization is built by a strong family.

[Kyla]

Do you think the Greeks had bad nuclear family units?

[Hannah]

Bad economy comes from bad family.

[Kyla]

Our economy is good.

[Hannah]

Wrong economy.

[Kyla]

What? Our economy. So if you think that the economy is bad, the problem with our economy isn't that our GDP isn't strong. Our GDP is, despite Trump's horrific tariffs, is still the number one in the world. Right. The actual issue you have with wealth right now is cost of like basic resources are exploding in through the roof, mostly because of oligopolies and monopolies of housing. Right. And wealth disparities at an all time high because stakeholders aren't interested in concern about employment wage stagnation. Right. So if you want to talk about like why people are struggling to afford things, it's not feminism, it's not the breakdown of the nuclear family. It's that people, it's that corporate profits are going up and wages are stagnating. That's why people are struggling.

[Hannah]

Well, the economy, your economy collapses because of bad decisions. Right. When your economy is in a bad situation, it is because of leaders making bad decisions or putting in place bad policies. That is like just a common principle sort of thing. Sure, but this is even beyond the economy too. I mean, this is like every single topic that we could get into all stems from if you do not have a strong masculine father figure and strong godly mother figure and they don't even have to be Christian. But I do believe that in order to have a moral strong society, you have to uphold the creator of morality, which we could even get into. Like the founding of the American nation,

[Kyla]

the Greeks, for example, didn't have traditional nuclear family. They had an intergenerational kind of like village style family relationships. Right. So like, did the Greeks fall apart because they got rid of the nuclear family that they didn't have even at their zenith and peak of their golden society? Like. No, the Greeks fell apart for a number of reasons. Number one, Greek city states valued being a city more than they valued being Greek. So they were very slow to respond to support one another. And as a result, for example, they didn't believe in expansionism at all. So they had a growing population, but they didn't actually expand their regions very much because like the Athenians were like, we're the best in Athens and we don't need to grow because we're the best. And they all kind of did this so that when like the Gauls and other groups that were more powerful were able to rise up against them, they couldn't mobilize troops fast enough. They couldn't unite their troops because basically what happened is we found out that city state models are weaker models than nation state models. Nation states rose up and dumpstered them because nation states can organize away. It's not because the nuclear family broke down. They didn't even have nuclear family in the Greeks.

[Hannah]

Well, I mean that's.

[Kyla]

You can point to the Mongols, but, well, just a course crack. Consider it always starts with the breakdown of the nuclear family. No, it doesn't. Yeah, there's almost no history where the breakdown of the nuclear family.

[Hannah]

I mean going back again to the garden of the Garden of Eden. I mean with Adam and Eve, sure. The first set of mankind. The reason we're here is because we have rejected God's original order from.

[Kyla]

But that's not a breakdown of the nuclear family. They were still a nuclear family. Well not even. They were still a family after they, they fell into sin. Right. They still had their children. Although they probably also didn't have a nuclear family. They had an intergenerational village style family as well. But like it's not what caused sin. Isn't. Isn't the breakdown of a nuclear family. What caused sin is that free will was enacted into this world. And once you have a choice, people will always choose wrong.

[Hannah]

I don't believe that.

[Kyla]

Of course you have, you have free

[Hannah]

will and if you understand that there's a consequence for your bad choice or your good choice.

[Kyla]

Do you have free will?

[Hannah]

100%.

[Kyla]

Do you sometimes choose the wrong thing?

[Hannah]

Absolutely. And I pay the consequence for that.

[Kyla]

Yeah. But that's what I'm saying is like when you have free will, you're inevitably going to make the wrong choice. That's why we say all the nation would be.

[Hannah]

But that doesn't mean we're always going to make bad decisions. But let's. I don't want to select from the

[Kyla]

forever kind of make bad decision and good decision. This is why it's so important is that when you make a bad decision you're choosing death. And when you choose life, it matters. And when you don't have a choice, you can't. Love can't exist. That's why God said choice matters more than all of it matters more than the nuclear family breaking down. It matters more than you.

[Hannah]

Where is that? And choice matters because.

[Kyla]

Because God said salvation.

[Hannah]

No, no, hold on. Adam and Eve didn't sin because of choice necessarily. They sinned because they lost sight of what God had intended.

[Kyla]

Why did Adam. Why did God put.

[Hannah]

Adam was not stepping in because he was being weak, he was being a coward. He was not guarding Eve's heart. The same problem today. I believe the reason why 85 we talk about. I believe it was 85. I might be a little bit off and that's a stat. But close to 85 of women voted for mom Donnie in New York City was because they are thinking with their. The Democratic Party does not care about women. The Democratic Party they continue to advocate for men and women's spaces and this is a whole nother argument for another day. I would Even argue that feminism is actually the reason why we have men and women's bathrooms today. Because men and women are not equal. We're equal in value. We're not equal in our role. And if we're going to advocate for the equality of the sexes, if we're going to advocate for this idea that men and women are equal and should be treated equal, women should be drafted, there should be no maternity leaves.

[Kyla]

I've already rejected that. So even most modern feminists aren't going to say it should be equal in all ways. They would say equal access to opportunity. That's what matters here. Right. And so if you want to go back to the first sin, right. Why did God allow Satan to be there in the first place?

[Hannah]

You tell me.

[Kyla]

What do you think?

[Hannah]

You probably know, I mean, choice.

[Kyla]

Yeah, yeah, choice. Because choices. Like when people say to me, as a Christian, how can you be a Christian when there's so much suffering? And I say, I don't think you understand how important choice is to Christ.

[Hannah]

Yeah, choice is very important. But again, like, there's also a moral standard. Like you can't, like that's the thing that people always say too is, okay, well, why can't we just allow people to like cut off their healthy breasts and genitals? I thought you believed in freedom. I thought you believed in free will. Like that's something that's thrown in the face of conservatives a lot of time. Right. And I'm not sure if you ask that same question, but that is a question that we get asked is, I thought you were for free will. I thought you were for freedom. But with great freedom also comes great responsibility. And as a nation where this is not the kingdom of God. Right. This is a nation that does this work under a federal government.

[Kyla]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

You have to have laws, you have to have law and order or it will become total anarchy.

[Kyla]

Of course.

[Hannah]

And under, like the kingdom of God, under, I guess the, the biblical standpoint, yes, we do have free will. But when you make a bad decision, like evading God's original design like they did in the Garden of Eden, you will see the consequences. And that was them getting kicked out of the Garden of Eden. And now they have been cursed. Man has to work for the rest of his life.

[Kyla]

That's.

[Hannah]

That was the curse that God gave to Adam.

[Kyla]

Is that lifelock?

[Podcast Host (Sean)]

How can I help?

[Kyla]

The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't.

[LifeLock Representative]

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[Kyla]

What do I do?

[Hannah]

My refund though, I'm freaking out.

[Podcast Host (Sean)]

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[Hannah]

I'm so relieved.

[Kyla]

No problem.

[Podcast Host (Sean)]

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[Hannah]

You will have to suffer, you will have to sweat and you will have to work to provide for your family. The curse for women is that their desire will be to rule over their husbands. And the irony of the feminist movement

[Kyla]

more about birth that like birth will.

[Hannah]

Oh yeah, birth pains. But it does say that your desire will be to rule over your husbands and to be rule over the man that is in your life to lead, guided, protect you. And the feminist movement. And we can argue of like, oh, like what you believe and what you want for feminism. But what the feminists that led the feminist movement said is they do not just want equality with men, they want to be superior to men.

[Kyla]

So aren't you glad I'm in the feminist movement because I police my own. Isn't it more important if.

[Hannah]

Wait, say it again. I couldn't hear.

[Kyla]

Aren't you glad that I'm in the feminist movement because I'm, I'm. If I'm going to talk to a feminist who says actually women should have more rights than men and have more power than men, I'd be like, no, why would I ever want that? Right? I want both of the genders to have equal access to opportunities. Of course, freedom has to get limited in a nation state. Right? That's getting into the practical argument again, which I do want to know. We are flipping between moral and practical back and forth, which I do think

[Hannah]

is important because every nation has a, A, a religious worldview like every single nation. That's a lie. That is, that's, that's constantly intertwined. And when I came into this, I thought you were, I was. My assumption was that you were an atheist, but you're not. So you're a Christian. But the common argument that atheists like to use, or even those from maybe a more paganistic or agnostic worldview, they say, well, please don't bring your religion into this conversation. But my biblical worldview, my Christian worldview is what has determined my political mind you. Right?

[Kyla]

Yes.

[Hannah]

Same thing with atheists. They might want to say that they don't want their religious or our religious worldview to be brought into the table. But you're always everybody is coming from a religious worldview, whether you're paganistic, atheistic or Christian. Like everybody has a worldview. So I think it's kind of. I would disingenuous to say maybe that I don't think that we can separate that. Because every.

[Kyla]

I'm not asking you to. I'm not asking you to. The only thing I would ask you to separate is church and state. Yeah. Mostly because it destroys the religion. It kills it. It's horrible.

[Hannah]

Yeah. To understand. Yeah. Thomas Jefferson's original intent was to protect the church from state sponsored influence. Which the irony of that is that in 2020, during COVID the same people that advocated for separation of church and state were the same ones that wanted to impose the state sponsored LGBTQ rainbow call onto the churches and told them that if they didn't shut down during COVID 19, they were going to be fined. But that's a whole other conversation for another day. But I will do something.

[Kyla]

Actually, could I just pause for a second?

[Hannah]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Kyla]

My inevitable necessary argument. Are you granting that to me? That basically, to some degree, for a military to be competitive, it needs a competitive GDP behind it and that in our current globe, there isn't a world where women are not in the workforce. They are not participating in being granted rights and freedoms. Is feminism inevitable? I'm not saying good, but inevitable and necessary.

[Hannah]

Is it necessary?

[Kyla]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Is feminism necessary?

[Kyla]

No.

[Hannah]

Absolutely not. God's original design.

[Kyla]

How do you compete at a global level if 50% of your workforce is stripped from their rights to participate? You have 50% less innovation than every other country.

[Hannah]

I guess let's. Let's take the movement feminism out of it for a second. Because our country is in such bad shape that it is today. I think it's still possible to live under a 1.1income household.

[Kyla]

We won't be globally competitive. Give me a single country right now where women are not allowed to work. That they are. Their GDP is competitive in the way that ours is. Same one.

[Hannah]

Oh. We definitely are the most competitive country. I. I could concede to that. 100. I agree with you on that.

[Kyla]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And I don't have a problem with women working, by the way. I think that was one of your questions. I don't have a problem. I don't think that it is unbiblical for a woman to have a job as long as their family is put first. Right. That's something that I will continue to advocate as long as their family is first.

[Kyla]

So one of the things that I hate that Christianity has done to men is that we've said, well, women should put their family first. And so what do we see? Men, particularly Christian men, but all men, do they work oftentimes 60 to 80 hours a week. They rarely see their children. Do you know the number one regret that men have in hospice and when they're dying?

[Hannah]

Not spending enough time with their children.

[Kyla]

Yeah. And why don't they get to spend time with their children? Because society has told them that fundamentally their value as a man is the money that they can provide to their family first and foremost. And as a result, men will slave away and, and sacrifice relationship with their children so that they can earn more money, usually more money than the family even needs to be happy. And we put, we put people in this situation where women are having to choose between a stagnated career or a career. And men have to choose. They don't even get a choice. Men don't even really get the choice. They don't even get to choose. Maybe I want to be a father. Right. That's the situation we put these things in. And again we can go back to like why the cat. Like our current capitalist system is failing us in major ways. Right. Mostly because it's like a death crony capitalist.

[Hannah]

Our country is more socialist now than it has ever been.

[Kyla]

But yeah, that and full and also not, not in the way that capitalism is meant to, to be operating ideally. Right.

[Hannah]

And so I actually think our country is going downhill because we have adopted so many socialistic ideals.

[Kyla]

Well, they're actually rolled back. Like if you think like the 1950s is the golden era, that's like the most socialist era we had, right. That's when they were taxing people like 90 of their income. That's when like the welfare like branch state was so large and incumbent things were just affordable. Whereas now what we've done is actually we've rolled back anti antitrust policy. Right. We've allowed monopolies and all copies. We've allowed LLCs to not be people, so you can't try them properly in court. We've allowed LLCs to file bankruptcy while the individual who has robbed their, their, their consumers of money just gets to make a new company again. Right. So are we, you know, socialists? We have some social welfare. We're definitely not more socialist now that we're in the 19.

[Hannah]

We definitely have socialist policies. I guess my question, because I don't know how much time we have, Sean.

[Podcast Host (Sean)]

20 more minutes.

[Hannah]

Oh, 20 more minutes.

[Kyla]

Okay.

[Hannah]

Ah, that's perfect.

[Kyla]

So are you granting me the inevitable and Necessary.

[Hannah]

What was your question again?

[Kyla]

Are you granting me that feminism is inevitable and necessary, at least in a practical, not good, just inevitable and necessary.

[Hannah]

Oh, well, not all parts of it. Again, there have every with it. Like you said before, God does use evil people to do great things. Right. Good. Not just evil people, people that have made bad decisions, of course. So of course not everything from the feminist movement has been bad. There are things I agree with and I don't have a problem with that the feminist or the feminists in the feminist movement have advocated for or done. But as a whole, the feminist movement has led to men and women's bathrooms, men and women's spaces. I mean, again, I do believe that the gender divide is worse than it has ever been, largely.

[Kyla]

I mean, we've got like, worse than when, like marital rape wasn't even triable. That's pretty bad. The worse than when we were doing arranged marriages. 100% women who are being sold off as a. As a. As a political exchange.

[Hannah]

I don't agree with that.

[Kyla]

I don't. I know that you don't.

[Hannah]

I know of. That is so much lower than what we are seeing.

[Kyla]

Not per capita.

[Hannah]

That's what the feminist loves to use. That's what the feminist movement loves.

[Kyla]

You is that you. The stats are not lower per capita. Right. Were these things happening less? Yeah, there was way less people. But when you actually look at the numbers, which we don't even have good numbers because marital rape wasn't a crime. So how do you even track this? How do you even get people to self report for a thing that you can't even acknowledge? And if a woman is in a situation where she's being maritally raped, she probably doesn't want to go to like a random like survey nerd and be like, I guess my husband is, you know, raping me. Probably not going to do that. Right. So it's like even the numbers that we have for cavita, which are probably much lower than they should be, are hugely concerning. We can agree of being like, that's not good. So that this is my issue. Right. When we say the past was just so much better for gender relationships. No, it wasn't. It was just different. It was just different. There were just different boons and there was different bands. Yeah.

[Hannah]

I mean, I think there are horrible things. I do think that the feminist movement uses those types of arguments of like, oh, well, women were being abused by these horrible men. Of course they were horrible men. There's always been horrible men and horrible women. But the level that we are today where men and women can't even have a conversation with one another. I think a lot of that has been because of social media. Like you brought up. Social media has played a huge role and the dynamics of feminine men and women and just the dating sphere as a whole. But to say, oh, it was really bad for men and women here. So we need to adopt feminist ideology and feminist standpoints. And again, I don't even, like, necessarily just saying feminist standpoints. Feminist ideology. Because you disagree with a lot of the original feminists and what they stood on.

[Kyla]

Yeah, I mean, most modern feminists would disagree with, like, the suffragettes, by and large, other than the right to vote. Right. Like, most feminists are like, yeah, racism's bad, actually.

[Hannah]

Yeah, yeah. Well, Planned Parenthood's pretty racist, but I

[Kyla]

wouldn't say they're racist. They just disproportionately serve black Americans.

[Hannah]

Margaret Sanger. They still. They gave out the Margaret Sanger Award until 2015, I think it was. You can look that up if you want. 2015, I believe Hillary Clinton or Nancy Pelosi was one of the last recipients of that award. Yeah. Planned Parent. Margaret Sanger.

[Kyla]

This is the problem with every ideological movement. Right. Like, if you were like, feminism has been more racist than it has, like, racist elements. Yeah, of course. Anytime you have, like, a majority of white people that are going to occupy a single space, typically the minority groups get the short end of the stick. I think that that's bad. Right. This is why, in many ways, I'm a fourth wave feminist, because it's being spearheaded by people who have been not represented right there. We haven't heard from black voices. We haven't heard from women of color. I think that that's not a good thing. And it's a lot of these women of color, by the way, that are going like, hey, ladies, being a mom's good. Actually being feminine and liking to dress nicely and liking to look pretty and liking to be in a relationship where you feel like a man is protecting you, that's actually cool and fine. And I agree with these women. Right. And then other women go, I don't want any of that. And I say, okay, that's fine, too. You get to make this choice. Feminism, to me, is about the promotion of women's choice. That's why it's a moral good. It's not a moral good because every feminist is a good person, because every hint of. Of events is morally good. We can look at Christianity. Christianity is riddled full of absolute barbarity. Right, Absolutely. The dark ages were horrific.

[Hannah]

But those are these things that's a common myth is that, oh, in the Bible there's lots of horrific things. Or through Christian movements there have been horrible things. They're going to be judged for God for that. Like that. That's between them and God. And it does not make it right that Christians were doing those things. I mean, Adolf Hitler considered himself in

[Kyla]

many interviews to be like, there's bad Christians.

[Hannah]

Horrible. He's going to, he's.

[Kyla]

There's bad feminists.

[Hannah]

He repented of his sins.

[Kyla]

There's bad feminists.

[Hannah]

But what has the results of the feminist movement led to? 100%.

[Kyla]

I mean, if you look at the results, like, I wish that I wasn't

[Hannah]

on this podcast with you right now. I wish that I wasn't on here advocating for women to have their own spaces or for me to walk into the bathroom at a Target and not have to see a half naked man in the next stall.

[Kyla]

How often have you walked into Target and seen a half naked man in the next. Also, why are you looking into the next stall?

[Hannah]

Why are they in the bathroom? Like, now you're reflecting from the point. Why is the man in the lifelock?

[Podcast Host (Sean)]

How can I help?

[Kyla]

The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't.

[LifeLock Representative]

One in four taxpaying Americans has paid the price of identity fraud.

[Kyla]

What do I do?

[Hannah]

My refund though. I'm freaking out.

[Podcast Host (Sean)]

Don't worry, I can fix this.

[LifeLock Representative]

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[Hannah]

I'm so relieved.

[Kyla]

No problem.

[Podcast Host (Sean)]

I'll be with you every step of the way.

[LifeLock Representative]

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[Hannah]

in the first place. I don't care.

[Kyla]

I just want to be super clear.

[Hannah]

Or if they're in the bathroom.

[Kyla]

Europe has been doing. Europe's been doing like, this is a great example. If you go to the bathroom here, the line for men, nothing. The line for Women is like 15 minutes long. Europe has been like, has been instituting like all gender bathrooms for a long time. I don't really care who's shitting beside me. I frankly, I have a problem with it.

[Hannah]

I think it's because of the feminist movement that I'm having to go to the bathroom and see a dude there. I just talked about, thanks to the

[Kyla]

feminist movement, if your husband rapes you, you can report it. And so when we talk about priorities

[Hannah]

here, so you keep bringing that up,

[Kyla]

and then we've got to respond only of course. Go ahead. Right. So one of the things that I have an issue with is you're. You're pointing to things that you don't like about the feminist movement, like trans stuff. But just, again, I would argue that's more of a trans movement than just pure feminist, because there's plenty of feminists who disagree with the trans movement. But regardless. Right. If we just grant it as part of my feminism. Right. I can grant you that you dislike these things, and we can fight about whether or not it's good or bad. The issue is that you can still grant that feminism as a movement has given women empowerment to make choices. And that is the thing that is not just morally good. Hold on, hold on. It is fundamental to our faith. It is the most. There is nothing more important as a Christian than salvation. Nothing, Nothing, nothing, nothing. God puts up with suffering. He watches children die. He sees Gazans getting blown up. He sees Israelites getting killed by the numbers. He sees wars and plagues. He has a nasty fish that swims up the stream of a man peeing and, like, get buries into his penis. Sorry, that was very distracting. There is. If you want to talk about atrocities. Suffering is like, one of the biggest reasons people lose their faith because it is so bad. And the only answer to that, as a Christian, is, and God says that choice matters more. It matters more. He's willing to put everything on the line so you get a chance to choose the noble knowing that most of you won't. Why do we think we're better than God?

[Hannah]

We're not.

[Kyla]

And why are we taking away women's choice?

[Hannah]

Because we think we're better than God. That's why we're here. Because God had an original design. He had, again, going back to creation, the creationist perspective. God had an original design. And because we thought we were, we knew better than God. I mean, same thing with abortion, because we think that we know better than God. Physician assisted suicide has now become a huge phenomenon right now. JB Pritzker just signed that into law. Because we think we know better than God.

[Kyla]

And.

[Hannah]

And we get to determine when we end human life.

[Kyla]

So here's an issue.

[Hannah]

But I guess real quick, so we don't get off on the physician assisted suicide thing, because I know this is a feminist argument, I guess. What would you say the feminist movement has led to? Like, what choices are you grateful for?

[Kyla]

Essentially, most of them. I mean, as a woman, for example, grew up in the church Right. My personality by nature is very disagreeable. That's probably why I do these shows. I was more interested as a young girl to sit with the pastors and fight with them about theology and talk to them about theology and ask them questions and poke holes and be like, this doesn't really make sense. And also like there's no historical evidence of Jews ever being slaves, but maybe never even being in Egypt. Like how does that all make sense? Rather than like baking, which is what the role I was allotted in the church to mostly do. Right. And as baking, baking being keeping sweet, staying quiet. Right. Going to girls Bible studies and as a result of the feminist movement, a woman who is not just quiet, not just sweet. I have a space to exist. I have a space to talk and so do other women as a result of it. My mom can work, she can pursue a career that's meaningful. I can pursue a career that's meaningful to me and I can have children at the same time. Right. I can increasingly report assault that happens to me. I can increasingly point to ways in which gender plays out that is limiting my choice and have a way to respond to it. It's allowed my country to have the most dominant GDP and military on the planet, thank God. Right. That's why I like feminism.

[Hannah]

So obviously you mentioned like having conversations and being able to talk and doing all those things which I think are biblical. We have female prophetess all throughout Scripture. You mentioned Deborah, Esther.

[Kyla]

In fact, we have progressive for the

[Hannah]

is the first prophetess. This isn't feminism. This is God's design. Right. And I think that's what you're getting at.

[Kyla]

So why did God's design in the Old Testament go from women can't be in the synagogue or they can't. They definitely can't participate in the teachings to Paul with the New Covenant allowing women into these spaces.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Kyla]

Why did that change?

[Hannah]

It has been the same. Miriam was a prophet in the Old Testament. Deborah was a judge. Esther was a leader.

[Kyla]

Are you disagreeing that Paul updated the rules of the synagogue for women?

[Hannah]

He didn't update. What do you mean by that?

[Kyla]

He did. He said women should be allowed to participate and ask questions. They should be allowed to pray and prophesy in the synagogue alongside the men. Women were kept out at that time. So what changed?

[Hannah]

What do you mean? I'm confused because Miriam was a prophetess in the Old Testament.

[Kyla]

That doesn't change the fact that women in the Old Testament were not allowed in the synagogue. They were not allowed to sit and learn alongside men. And then with the New Covenant, they were what changed.

[Hannah]

Yeah, And I believe that Jesus, he came and fulfilled the Old law.

[Kyla]

So Jesus just changed the rules.

[Hannah]

He fulfilled the Old Law. There's plenty of things like following kosher, which Jewish people do because they don't believe in the New Testament. There's plenty of things that happen to all throughout the.

[Kyla]

I agree, I agree. I would just look at that and go. But it's pretty obvious when you read the actual Bible that there is a relativity. So God, I think, is object objective. Right. There are moral truths that he knows. The problem is that I think God understands that humans are very silly and fickle. And we are developing just as much as we develop from infant to adult as a society, as a human species, we are developing as individuals, we're developing greater morality, which is why I think back in the Old Testament, he's the author.

[Hannah]

Morality, there's no, there's a definition, a find up.

[Kyla]

When I say developing morality, what I mean is we are finding out what is the most good. And the issue is that this is fundamentally relative in context. Right. This is why, for example, in the Old Testament, women were not going to be allowed in the synagogue. But by New Testament, the people were probably more ready. And God allowed his disciples to stretch and change that rule to allow women to be in. This is why, for example, in the Old Testament there was certain rules. Like there was a time when concubines were allowed and then it was barred. This is because the people were not ready. Jesus even says, right, like you were not ready. Right. I had to open your eyes to this because you are, you were not ready for all of the law. And I think what we see is a progression of God increasingly improving the status of people, increasingly improving the status of women and of men and of children and as immigrants. Right?

[Hannah]

No, the Bible's very clear that it says this and I believe it's in John that God is the. The same yesterday, today and forever.

[Kyla]

Yep, that's the objective part. But the relative part doesn't relativism in the Bible. Do you know what relativism means?

[Hannah]

God is not a God of confusion.

[Kyla]

Do you know what relativism means of

[Hannah]

appealing to the standards of today's culture? Like you just said, okay, what do

[Kyla]

you, what do you define relativism? So philosophically? Objectivism means there is like something true, like out there somewhere. There's a concept called justice and God knows it and he knows exactly what it looks like. Relativity is what it looks like in a certain context. Right. Relativity is just about context. So what does justice. What does justice look like to the ancient Hebrews when it comes to, for example, killing the Amalekites? Well, God ordered them to kill infants, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't want us to kill infants now. Right. This is like an element of. There is context that changes these things. And a lot of the context is the development of humans understanding God's will more and more and better and better throughout the ages.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I definitely don't think this country understands God's will. I think that's his. God's judgment's on this country right now. I mean, the fact, again, we. And I don't even know what your stance is on abortion. I mean, abortion has been a huge play. Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger has been a huge part of the feminist.

[Kyla]

Decriminalized and legal up to 10, 12 to 15 weeks.

[Hannah]

Say that one more time.

[Kyla]

Decriminalized and then Lee. And then it's. I think a personhood enters at around 12 to 15 weeks.

[Hannah]

Why do you. Why do you think that?

[Kyla]

Do you want my biblical answer?

[Hannah]

You can do scientific. Well, we could do this on scientific standpoint.

[Kyla]

Do we want to go into abortion? Do you want to stay focused on seven minutes? Let's focus on feminism.

[Hannah]

Okay, that's fine. I still think it's a part of feminism. I think abortion is a huge.

[Kyla]

Yeah, I would grab that. I would actually grant that it is part of feminism.

[Hannah]

And that's why I disagree with the feminist movement. Abortion, men and women's spaces. And you mentioned earlier that Christian nationalism

[Kyla]

is part of Christianity.

[Hannah]

Well, those. It's the same thing as like Zionism. Like the term Zionism isn't in the Bible. Christian nationalism isn't in the Bible. Those terms can be misconstrued.

[Kyla]

Do you think that Christian nationalism is occupied by many Christians?

[Hannah]

Yeah, I don't think it's a. I don't know specific stats. It depends on what your definition of Christian nationalism.

[Kyla]

They want to overthrow democracy or reduce capacity for democracy and establish a statehood where the. The church and state are blended. That power is connected to the church.

[Hannah]

So I think a lot of people that want to want and advocate for wholehearted Christian nationalism want a Christian theocracy, which I don't think is biblical at all because there is no free will. I believe what you said earlier. I believe that's biblical and that we do have free will. We have free choice. Obviously you have to have laws and standards for your country or it will become total anarchy. But we're Not a theocracy, because there's no freedom, there's no free will within a theocracy. And we cannot run our country like the kingdom of God, because having no

[Kyla]

free will would be quite bad. Hey, yeah, yeah. So this is why I go back to. So feminism is inevitable and necessary, but

[Hannah]

you can't work or innocent lives and then say, oh, that's free will, because again, you have to have law and order. That's what I'm, that's what I'm getting.

[Kyla]

So what you can do is you can politically advocate to convince all that of, of society that you are right. And I would before you're right to do that. Right. And I think that you are right up until a certain point. I think it's even biblical that it's up until a certain point. Right. And I think that that's your right to do that. But when I talk about feminism, I think it's inevitable and necessary for two reasons. Number one, women necessarily were going to enter the workspace. That was unavoidable. The war perpetuated that in greater numbers. However, every other dominant country adopted that policy because it leads to more innovators, more workers and better gdp. And GDP matters specifically in a global force, because you need to fund your military. The military who dominates most is the west funded military and that's GDP that funds that. Number two, the moment that women are now earning money and capital, they're participating in taxes. They need to have a say on the country when they're participating in such a way. And number two, the moment that you have money, you have power and leverage. That's what money is most important for. So the moment that women have access to capital, they are necessarily going to advance their own rights and of course they're going to do these things. So this is the inevitable argument. The reason why it's morally good is because people, it is best that people are empowered with maximal agency. Right. At a moral level, I would rather give people the opportunity to be good and noble than to limit their choices out of, and act and, and access and enslave them to the goodness out of necessity.

[Hannah]

What do you think is enslaved sleep? Like, what do you think?

[Kyla]

If I can't choose to do something bad, then if I do something good, it doesn't matter. If all I can do is tell the truth, then my choice to make it. I, I don't even have a choice, then when I tell the truth, that's not a noble thing. Particularly in situations where telling the truth is hard.

[Hannah]

I don't Think we disagree on a whole lot. Like, I, I, I, I don't think we disagree on a substantial amount.

[Kyla]

No. Then you're a feminist.

[Hannah]

No, no, I'm definitely not a feminist.

[Podcast Host (Sean)]

That's funny.

[Hannah]

I would say that our. We disagree. We obviously have disagreements. I would say we're probably like, we have the same level of disagreements that Sarah Stock and I have in different ways. Right. Like, we, we don't want theocracies. Both of us don't want theocracies. We don't want.

[Kyla]

There's definitely major things we disagree on, but if you are, like, even entertaining the capacity of repealing the 19th, then we fundamentally have a problem. Right. I will never take away women's choice to vote. Voting is the most important thing in a democracy. Voting and being able to work are the most important things to allow people access to opportunity of choice.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Sean)]

So I think let's do a final statement. Four minutes.

[Hannah]

All right, go ahead.

[Kyla]

I've been cool.

[Hannah]

All right. Yeah. So I think as a whole, the feminist movement, as I said in the beginning, has led to a lot of issues that we're seeing today. Obviously, the National Organization for Women and several other feminist organizations have advocated for a worldwide legalization of prostitution. I think it's the most degrading, objectifying thing a woman could ever be sold into. And you've mentioned, you know, marital rape and other things that prior to the feminist movement, they couldn't speak up about. I mean, it troubles me that we're talking about that, but we're not talking about women being sold into prostitution, women selling their bodies online. I think that's horrible. It's, it's disgusting. It's, it's honestly very objectifying to themselves. And, you know, some people say, you'll bring up free will. What about free will? Again, with great freedom also comes great responsibility. And we cannot just allow everybody here to be walking around naked. Like, we have to have some level of boundaries. And so, same thing with the feminist movement. We cannot allow people just to murder their babies in their mother's womb, because, again, with great freedom comes responsibility. This is an objective truth that, yes, life does begin a conception. And we just had an atheist and biologist come out and say that recently because finally people are waking up realizing that, hey, this is actually science. So I believe the feminist movement has led to the embrace of abortion, the murder of babies in their mother's womb, men and women's sports, the division that we're seeing among men and women today, and the gender dynamic. I believe it's played A huge role and the objectification and the sexualization of women. On OnlyFans. Again, legalizing prostitution. I mean, there's so many. So many issues that we could just get into. And I guess I want to finalize with this too, because you mentioned like. Like that the feminist movement never advocated. Or maybe, maybe you did. You can correct this if you.

[Kyla]

If you're.

[Hannah]

If I'm wrong here, but I thought that you said they didn't necessarily advocate for the idea that men and women are inherently equal in role, that they were just wanting equal opportunity. Was that what you're saying?

[Kyla]

I said the third wave did do that. That's just screw them. That's stupid.

[Hannah]

So this is why I said that feminism did lead to transgenderism. Feminism did lead to men and women's bathrooms, because during the. Even the 50s through the 90s, they were saying that men and women are not different. It's just a social construct. And so if men and women aren't different, then why does it matter that they're in our spaces? Right?

[Kyla]

Yeah. So I guess to my rebuttal, one of the things I think is interesting when I talk to anti feminists is they do the feminist thing, where every single ill that they can point to that has any gendered relationship to it is the fault of feminism in the same way that lots of feminists would just blame the patriarchy. And the reality is that these things are nuanced and sophisticated. Right. Gender dynamics have always been complicated between people. They've always been hard between men and women. In the past, it was plagued by different issues, and they're plagued by now. The reason that men and women aren't having sex right now is mostly because of social media. It's. Does feminism contribute it to it? To some extent? Sure, to some extent. Right. But it contributes in both good and bad ways. And so I think that we do this thing that's a disservice to our capacity to think, which is that we want to find a really simple, easy, sexy boogeyman, and then we want to lay at its feet everything that we don't like. And that's. That's not. That's not how we solve the world's problems. A good. A good treatment requires a good diagnosis. And I think a lot of anti feminists do a bad diagnosis in the way that I think a lot of feminists do a bad diagnosis. Talking about, like, selling their bodies. Again, when you say freedom comes with great responsibility, while sex workers do pay for it, they are the most marginalized group most of Them can't have bank accounts. Most of them are stigmatized and shamed for their existence. Most of them are the easiest excuse for people to express their misogyny. And so one of the things I would say to this is, you keep saying freedom comes responsibility, which is why we can't allow people choice. And it's like, hold on, there are certain choices in a nation state we can't allow people to make because of rule of law. But rule of law isn't morality at a moral level. Agency as Christian is our fundamental starting place. God. You think feminists are choosing bad things? God allowed humanity to choose death when they had perfection. Why would we ever assume we are smarter than God to rob people of their choice? If you think that their choices lead to bad outcomes, let the bad outcomes happen. Let them happen. Don't let them happen to you, but let them happen. Right? If you think that the bad choices are so bad that they're harming society broadly, then go ahead, vote against these things. But the issue is, if you're a feminist like me, all I care about is empowering women's capacity to choose right and particularly choose in the areas that I think are connected to rights and to liberties. And I hate anti feminists robbing women of these choices in a way that they would never rob men of these choices. Because I think what they're doing is thrusting themselves in a position above God of saying, I know that you will choose wrong, so I'm going to take away your choice. You think God didn't know that we were going to choose wrong when he put Satan in the garden? You think that God didn't know that we were going to choose wrong when he sent his son to die for us? Right. He of course knew this and the stakes were so much higher and he chose it anyways. So it's a Christian position to be a feminist.

[Podcast Host (Sean)]

Great episode, ladies. Thank you so much. We'll link your socials below if you guys want to see a Part 2 comment. Thank you. I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions apply.