Hassan Shibly: He Explains “Sacrifice” So Clearly It Changes Everything | DSH #1747

Summary

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Digital Social Hour – DSH #1747

Guest: Hassan Shibly
Host: Sean Kelly
Air Date: January 11, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Digital Social Hour features civil rights attorney and Muslim community leader Hassan Shibly in an unfiltered conversation with host Sean Kelly. Together they delve into issues of sacrifice, faith, civil liberties, U.S. foreign policy, Islamophobia, the role of gratitude, and bridge-building between religions, punctuated with passionate critiques and memorable insights about spirituality, activism, and the search for meaning and justice. Shibly’s forthright articulation of “sacrifice” aims to transform listeners’ understanding of worship, purpose, and fulfillment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hassan’s Background and Mission

• Early Inspiration: Shibly recounts deciding to become a lawyer at 17 after being profiled and detained for hours with other Muslims at the border for simply attending an Islamic conference in Canada.
  • [01:39] “That really scared me… My family immigrated from Syria. We came to America seeking freedom and liberty… If we lose that, we lose the heart and soul of America.”
• From Activism to Law: Ran CARE (Council on American-Islamic Relations) for 10 years before founding his own law firm, with a focus on protecting civil liberties and human rights in America.

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2. Islamophobia and Civil Rights in America

• Trends in Discrimination:
  • [02:38] “The worst [anti-Muslim discrimination] was around 2011—much higher than just after 9/11. It’s orchestrated. It’s funded… Politicians want to scapegoat the Muslim community.”
  • Critiques the influence of pro-Israel lobbying groups and what he describes as “Zionist-funded demonization” of Muslims in media and politics.
• Freedom of Speech:
  • [05:22] “We’re losing it.”
  • Both Kelly and Shibly discuss how criticism of Israel has resulted in social media bans and suppression of free discussion, calling out hypocrisy in First Amendment protections.

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3. America First and U.S. Foreign Policy

• On Taxes and Priorities:
  • [04:06] “We had a revolution because people didn’t want to pay a 2% tea tax; now we’re paying 30–40%... Why are we sending billions overseas when our own people are struggling?”
  • Foreign Loyalty Accusations: Explores how certain political donors are, in his view, “unduly influencing” American politics to favor Israeli interests over American liberty.
• Genocide Allegation:
  • [07:40] “Absolutely [it’s a genocide]. When you’re accidentally killing tens of thousands, it goes from being an accident to being intentional.”

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4. Faith, Gratitude, and the Meaning of Sacrifice

What “Sacrifice” Means (The Core of the Episode)

• Redefining Sacrifice:
  • [17:20] “It’s any form of sacrifice: sacrificing your ego, greed, giving in charity, sacrificing your job to speak out against injustice… Whatever good you do that requires sacrifice is the key to divine love.”
  • Shibly contrasts this human capacity for sacrifice with the angelic:
    • “Angels can’t sacrifice. They’re sinless… But when you sacrifice for God, you become beloved to God. The righteous human is more beloved than the angels.”
  • Notable Quote:
    • [19:24] “You can’t honor the Creator if you don’t honor His creation. You can’t claim to love God and dishonor his creation.”
• Spiritual Resilience:
  • [20:02] “Our elevation is through our tribulation. Whatever happens, even the things we hate most—it's God’s way of elevating us.”
  • Heaven & Gratitude:
    • [20:39] “Those who thank God in good times and bad enter heaven without judgment. In their hearts, they already have heaven now.”

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5. Critiquing Christian Nationalism & Interfaith Alliance

• On Christian Nationalism:
  • [08:42] “I’d love America to be a more Christian nation—if it means people live by the values of faith, as long as there’s free expression and no forced religion.”
• Muslim–Christian Unity:
  • [09:39] “We Muslims, we honor Jesus. I want to see a stronger relationship between Muslims and Christians in the US. The Zionist movement spent a lot to turn us against each other... for Israel’s benefit.”
• History of Tolerance:
  • [33:35] Shares the story of the Umayyad Mosque and Christian churches in Damascus as an example of Islamic protection and cooperation with religious minorities.

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6. Media, Social Media Suppression & Narrative Control

• Censorship and Algorithms:
  • [12:13] “Meta exec proudly said, ‘I shut down so many pages… censored those who say we control the media.’ Don’t they see the irony?”
  • Highlights the contrast between viral anti-Muslim posts and suppressed calls for peace, observing how algorithms may “promote hate” while suppressing bridge-building content.

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7. Eschatology and End Times (Interfaith Perspective)

• Return of Jesus:
  • [16:03] “Muslims and Christians both believe Jesus will return to establish justice. I believe life is a test—worship through sacrifice is our mission until then.”
• Forces of Division:
  • [26:53] “There’s a game being played, and the game is to turn Muslims and Christians against each other. But I believe those forces will fail.”

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8. Shariah Law, Misconceptions, and Human Rights

• What is Shariah?:
  • [30:59] “People don’t even know what it is. Shariah means ‘the path’—the path to water, to success. Its goals are to protect religion, honor, intellect, wealth, and health—the same things the US Constitution seeks to protect.”
• Protection of Minorities:
  • [32:45] “The Prophet Muhammad said, ‘Whoever harms a Jew or Christian living under Muslim rule, I will be their advocate against the Muslim on Day of Judgment.’”
• Story of the Umayyad Mosque/Church in Damascus:
  • [34:52] “When Muslims outnumbered Christians and took over the church, the judge ruled, ‘God will never accept a prayer on stolen land,’ and made Muslims build four churches for Christians around the mosque.”

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9. Practical Spirituality & Personal Development

• On Mastering Desire:
  • [22:38] “Desire is the destroyer of kings. All the spiritual paths teach mastering one’s desire.”
• On Ego:
  • [24:29] “When we choose our intellect over our desire, we rise higher than the angels. When the opposite, we fall lower than animals.”
• On Family, Divorce, and Modern Culture:
  • [52:09] “Divorce rates are sky high because people are too used to instant gratification. Kids pay the price… Islam teaches you to put effort into healing the relationship.”
  • Responsibility Over Rights:
    • [54:32] “Everyone’s talking about their rights. Very few people ask, what is my responsibility? As a parent, you’ll be questioned by God, your kids may testify against you on the Day of Judgment.”

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10. Prophecy, Revelation, and Scientific Miracles of the Quran

• Miracles of the Quran:
  • [45:53] “The Quran said the heavens and earth were one body and we pulled it apart. That’s the Big Bang. It talks about the mountains as pegs, the seas and land in their correct proportion, day and night in correct count, and more.”
  • Notable Challenge:
    • [37:09] “I will challenge anyone $10,000 to prove otherwise—the Quran is the only book that claims to be from God and was never changed.”

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11. Social Programs and Addressing Homelessness/Drug Abuse

• [50:59] “You have to build programs to get them [the homeless] out of those circumstances… There are actually more vacant homes than homeless people. The problem is a society breakdown, not just individual failure. That’s why Islam emphasizes strong family bonds.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Sacrifice & Divine Love
  • Hassan Shibly [17:24]:
    "Whatever good you do that requires sacrifice is the key to divine love. You’ll never love those who haven’t sacrificed for you like those who have."
• On Community, Gratitude, and Action
  • Hassan Shibly [20:39]:
    “Those who thank God in good times and bad enter heaven without judgment. And their hearts—they’re already in heaven now.”
• On Human Rights in Islam
  • Hassan Shibly [38:31]:
    “God is infinite, you can never harm Him. But humans are weak. If I dishonor God, it doesn’t harm Him. But if I injure you, I cause real harm. That’s why in Islam, human rights can be even greater.”
• On Hope for Unity
  • Hassan Shibly [26:58]:
    “There’s a game being played to turn Muslims and Christians against each other—but I believe those forces will fail.”
• On Differences Without Division
  • Hassan Shibly [27:25]:
    “Real interfaith means recognizing our differences—but not letting those differences divide us from working towards what our faith calls us to.”

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Timestamps by Theme & Segment

| Timestamp | Topic/Segment | |------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–01:24| Hassan’s charitable focus and return to “real work” | | 01:39–02:34| Motivation for becoming a civil rights lawyer | | 02:38–05:20| Patterns and causes of Islamophobia, U.S. foreign policy critique | | 06:41–10:26| Lobbying, free speech suppression, media control, and social media | | 14:18–15:56| Israel’s regional actions, ethnic/state identity | | 16:03–19:58| End times, role of sacrifice, human vs. angelic worship | | 20:02–22:34| Gratitude, life as a test, humility, tribulation and growth | | 26:03–28:38| Division between faiths, unity against “Antichrist” (eschatology) | | 30:59–34:52| Misconceptions about Sharia, minorities’ protection in Islam | | 37:09–39:49| Finality of prophethood, human and divine rights | | 45:53–48:40| Scientific “miracles” and mathematical patterns in Quran | | 50:59–52:38| Homelessness, drug abuse, social responsibility, family structure | | 54:32–56:11| Parental responsibility, judgment, and forgiveness traditions |

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Closing

The conversation ends with Hassan inviting listeners to connect with him for bridge-building initiatives, emphasizing unity despite diversity:

[56:46] Hassan Shibly: “Let’s build bridges. Let’s not let hate divide us.”

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This summary provides a comprehensive guide to the episode, capturing the spirit, content, and key takeaways for any listener or reader.

Transcript

[A]

You give in charity, you help the poor, you speak out against injustice. And when you make the world better, you're honoring God, you become beloved to God. So that's the whole theme of the Quran in a nutshell.

[B]

Beautiful. Yeah. Being grateful and, you know, being humble is very important to me.

[A]

It's the essence. The Quran says, what would God gain by punishing you if you give thanks and believe? In another verse, it says that if you thank me, I will increase you. And I believe just God created us for us to express gratitude.

[B]

Okay, guys, we got Hasan in studio today, making his way back to the mainstream. Man. Thanks for coming on.

[A]

Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

[B]

Were you taking a break intentionally from social media or kind of walk me through?

[A]

And it's just I've been really focusing on building my law firm and philanthropy and charity work, especially with what we're seeing. I mean, we're so blessed to live in America and we live such comfortable lives, but you look around the world, you see children starving, children being killed. I mean, you see the situation in Gaza. Tens of thousands of children butchered with their own weapons. And I feel a burden that as Americans, we gotta give back. So I've tried to focus a lot on raising money for humanitarian aid, help the children, medical aid, and just trying to make the most of the blessings God gave me. So it is a struggle to balance between doing the real work and then the social media. You know, people sometimes think social media is the real work, but the real work happens offline.

[B]

Yeah. Beautiful, man. Yeah. A law firm must be a total different lifestyle than a social media influencer.

[A]

100%. And that's what I am. I'm a lawyer first and foremost. And, you know, I've got a decent following. A couple hundred thousand on Instagram. Instagram, and like, you know, the tens of thousands on different platforms. But it was never intentional. Right. It was just through the fruit of doing the work that we. That we do.

[B]

Right. What type of law do you specialize in?

[A]

So I ran one of the largest American Muslim civil rights organizations for 10 years called CARE, and it was just an honor to do that. I actually decided to become a lawyer when I was 17, and I just came back from an Islamic conference, and they told us to go in for a random inspection. Mom said, what do you mean random? I'm like, mom, random means they saw your headscarf. But I was joking. I didn't think that would be the case. And when I walked into the room, I was shocked. There were just 40 Muslims and we were all held for six hours. We were all US citizens. We were fingerprinted, interrogated first treated like criminals just for attending an Islamic conference in Canada. And that really scared me, to be honest, because my family immigrated from Syria. We came to America seeking freedom and liberty where the government can't treat you differently because of your political views or religious views. I think that's what makes America amazing. And if we lose that, we lose the heart and soul of America. So. So that night I decided, you know what? I want to become a lawyer and protect the freedom and liberty that makes America great. So ended up going to law school, then ran care for 10 years and then started my own law firm a few years ago.

[B]

Respect, man.

[A]

Appreciate it.

[B]

And have you seen the profiling get worse or better since you started?

[A]

It's had its ups and downs. I think the worst was around 2010, 2011. Anti Muslim discrimination in 2011 was actually much higher than when it was after 9 11. Really? Yeah, because people think Islamophobia and anti Muslim hate is a reaction to like bad things that bad Muslims did. But the reality is every religious group has bad people that do bad things. So it's not a natural reaction. It's actually orchestrated, it's funded, and you know, a lot of times it's. It's just a cop out for politicians who don't have real solutions to the real problems plaguing America. So they want to scapegoat the Muslim community. A lot of it is also heavily Zionist funded. I mean, Zionists are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to demonize Islam to basically enable their ability to promote hate against the Muslim community and therefore hate against Palestinians, and then allow the American government to send billions of dollars to support Israel at the expense of the American people. They can't do that if they don't demonize Muslims first. So, you know, in the years after 9 11, anti Muslim sentiment was much higher. And unfortunately we've obviously seen a resurgence since post October 7th as well. So we've been very, very busy as attorneys, I'll tell you that. But I love what I do because it's not just about protecting the Muslim community. It's about protecting American liberty for everyone. It's about protecting the U.S. constitution. We're so grateful for the Constitution. I mean, I think it's what makes America one of the best nations in the world. And we an obligation to keep America first and do whatever we can to preserve the Constitution for all people. You know, I want a country where children of all people, regardless of their race or religion can grow up proud of their faith without fearing intimidation or harassment. That's what it's about.

[B]

Well said, man. So you're part of the America first movement?

[A]

I mean, not in any formal way, but I'm a big believer in America First. I believe that our tax dollars should stay at home. We shouldn't be sending billions of dollars to any country overseas when our own people are struggling. And frankly, let's keep our tax dollars in our own pockets. People work hard. Why are we taxing people's hard work? I mean, it' crazy, right? We had a revolution because people didn't want to pay a 2% T tax, and now we're paying 40, 30 crazy percent, you know, depending on people's income level. It's absolutely wild, dude.

[B]

If it wasn't for taxes, I would have been retired by now.

[A]

Amen. Literally. Literally.

[B]

And then 47.

[A]

And you can't even. You can't even own your home now, right? You know, you're renting your home from the government, you're paying real estate tax. You're paying on what you earn, you're paying on what you spend. I don't think that's what America was made for, you know what I'm saying? And so I'm a big believer in America First. I believe in keeping our tax dollars at home. And I'm very saddened to see a lot of politicians destroy and undermine American liberty for the benefit of foreign nation. And I think that's what we're seeing happening in regards to Israel. Right? You're finding people being targeted by the government, people facing deportations, People are losing their first amendment freedom of speech. The most critical thing, like you don't even get repercussion for criticizing America, but you'll get repercussion if you criticize Israel. And so our politicians are undermining American liberty to benefit a foreign nation. I mean, that scares me.

[B]

I don't think we have freedom of speech anymore.

[A]

We're losing it.

[B]

I got banned on certain platforms for speaking out about against Israel. Not even me. My guess, that is why. So I'm banned on a couple platforms.

[A]

Why is it the golden calf that no one can speak about, you know, And I think Americans got to start waking up. I think they are. And that's why, you know, what's crazy is on social media, on X in particular, over the last few months, we've seen a huge resurgence of anti Muslim hate. They're trying to paint that, you know, Muslims are some sort of third column that we're taking over the country, that we're trying to impose our faith and our laws, when really, I think every accusation is a confession. Look who's promoting these lies. It's Zionists. And look who's controlling congress. It's Zionists. And look who's getting billions of our tax dollars. It's Zionists. So they're the ones that are unduly influencing America. They're the ones that are sucking out our tax dollars for the benefit of a foreign nation. They're the ones that are undermining freedom of speech at home. But they want a scapegoat and they want to blame the Muslims instead as a distraction so they can continue to undermine the American people. And that's the crazy thing. You saw Trump when he was talking about Miriam Adelson, who funds hundreds of millions of dollars in anti Muslim effort, in pro Zionist effort, he said, you know, I asked her, does she love Israel first or America first? And she wouldn't answer. He said, I think she may actually love Israel more. And that's the truth. And this is a form of treason in my mind as an American, I'm proud to keep America first. I want to protect the Constitution and I want our tax dollars to stay at home.

[B]

Yeah. It is concerning that. Even at the presidential level, you could be somewhat compromised, Right?

[A]

Absolutely. And what I do respect about Trump, though, is that he speaks openly, like he's not hiding. He didn't hide that Miriam Adelson's got billions and she's influencing politics. I don't respect that he's allowing this to happen. I don't respect that he's complicit. I don't respect that he's allowing Israel's interests to trump American interests. Pardon the pun. But at the same time, I do appreciate that at least he's speaking about it in the open.

[B]

Do you think it's purely just a money thing for some of these people?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, look, it's a mix. So I think a lot of it is about money. Some of them are driven by creed, some of them are driven by greed, you know, but. But again, what boggles my mind is how anyone can justify what our tax dollars are doing in Gaza and what they've done in Gaza. I mean, the civilian death toll has been insane. You can't accidentally kill tens of thousands of civilians. When you're accidentally killing tens of thousands of civilians, it goes from being an accident to being intentional.

[B]

Yeah. Would you label it a genocide?

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it comes from not seeing the victims of this genocide as equal human beings. The Palestinians, the Muslims, they've been dehumanized. And only when you dehumanize people can you tolerate seeing such utter carnage. I mean, people can just look at the footage of Gaza for themselves. The place is flattened for the last couple years. Every single day I open my phone and I see pictures of young children dismembered, blown to pieces with American weapons. You know, I have four children myself. I love my four year old daughter. I love all my kids. And when I see those Palestinian children, I see my own kids in them. And that's what faith is supposed to teach us. We have to love all of the children as if they're our own. That's what, that's what the message of God is. And that's what blows my mind when anyone believes in God, but they can justify this kind of violence. You cannot honor the Creator when you dishonor his creation. The worst of crimes in the sight of God is to shed the blood of the innocents. And too many people have used faith to justify that, and it's got to stop.

[B]

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. They're using faith as a weapon now, right?

[A]

It's wild.

[B]

Yeah. The Christian nationalism movement, what are your thoughts on that?

[A]

Yeah, look, I think, look, I'll be very frank. I would love to see America be a more Christian nation. I have no problem with that. I believe Christianity has beautiful values, beautiful principles, as long as it allows the free expression of all other faiths and as long as it doesn't enforce the faith through the government. But if more people are adhering to Christian faith values, I think that's a beautiful thing. But I think they need to be sincere in their beliefs. Because the most wild thing is finding Christians that are supporting Israel. When you look at how many nuns have been killed by snipers in Gaza and in Palestine, I didn't know that. Yes. And when you look at how many Christian leaders, I mean, Bethlehem, they actually didn't celebrate Christmas last year. They didn't have their official celebrations. They said, how can we celebrate when our people are being killed? And you'll find a lot of Arab Christians talking out and saying, listen, we are Christians, we're Palestinians, we're Arab and Israel is killing us. You see Palestine, you see Christians visiting Jerusalem, they're being spit at by Israelis over there. They don't respect Jesus.

[B]

I mean, Tatum said that 100%.

[A]

And you got to see, what are they, what do they say about Jesus Christ? I mean, they literally say he's boiling in excrement and hellfire. Meanwhile, we Muslims, we honor Jesus. So I want to see a stronger relationship between Muslims and Christians in the US I believe the Zionist movement has spent a lot of money to turn Muslims and Christians against each other to enable the Zionist movement take away billions of our tax dollars for the benefit of Israel. And I think the American people are starting to see through it and they've had enough.

[B]

Yeah, I hope people wake up to it. Have you tracked the flow of this Zionist money? Like, have you seen where it start?

[A]

How. Yes, there's a lot of great reports. CARES published some reports on it. People can also Google Fear Inc. And read the data and the study and see who's. Who's behind it. I mean, the guy who bought TikTok. Yeah, he's heavy involved in it. Oh, wow. Yeah, I got banned there too, man.

[B]

Ever since that takeover by him, you can't post about it.

[A]

And how are the American people comfortable with someone like him buying Tick Tock? You're worried about the Chinese, man, You got to be worried about these guys. They're literally censoring Americans at home and they're impacting their ability to earn their livelihood. I mean, that's what they do. They're the biggest proponents of cancel culture and that's antithetical to the US Constitution and freedom of liberty. If you believe in the marketplace of ideas and you believe you have good ideas, you wouldn't want to censor them.

[B]

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[A]

Like, and that's why I told you, I said, listen, I'm happy to debate anyone who wants to debate Islam. Right? Because I believe in my faith. I'm confident, I'm not insecure. People want to promote hate, let them promote hate. As long as we can have a chance to challenge it and let the audience decide that the best ideas win.

[B]

That's how it should be.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. That's how it should be. Yeah. It's concerning, though, because if TikTok can fall, what's the next platform? And then it keeps going. You know what I mean?

[A]

It's wild. You know, I saw a video from one of the Meta executives, and she's like, you know, and she's a proud Zionist, and she's like, I'm so proud in my career that I've shut down so many pages and censored those that say we control the media. Well, don't they see the irony of that? It's wild.

[B]

Yeah. Because the younger. I don't know if you've seen this drop younger demographics support Palestine 100%.

[A]

Like, heavily. 100%. And I think that's what they're so afraid of, the next generation, which isn't brainwashed by the mainstream media. And that's how they used to do it. See, before, there were very, you know, few gatekeepers and they controlled access to information. And the Zionists spent, again, hundreds of millions to sell their lives. You got to look up the Hasbaro playbooks. I mean, it's wild. You can see whenever civilians are killed, all these American politicians, all these media outlets saying the same talking points, defending the killing of civilians, There is a playbook at play. But now, especially with Musk opening up, X having more diverse voices, and people are seeing firsthand what Israel is doing again. You just see firsthand kids being blown up every single day. And anyone with a mind can think, you can't do this by accident. This is a policy. Even on October 7, people are shocked to learn hundreds and hundreds of Israelis that were killed that day were killed by Israel under the Hannibal Directive. It's actually part of their military command rules not to allow hostages to be taken, and they would rather kill their own civilians and soldiers than let them be taken as hostages. And look, people have said now they should have released the hostages. The violence will stop. Well, guess what? Hamas has released all the hostages. Did the violence stop? It hasn't stopped. In fact, before October 7th, that year was the most deadliest year for Palestinian children. Before October 7th, none of this conflict started on October 7th. The problem again is that the Zionists have spent so much money to demonize the Palestinians and to promote their hatred. But thanks to the advent of social media, I think their narrative is falling apart and people are waking up.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, the hostages got released, but they're still fighting. Right?

[A]

They're still being bombed. It's not even fighting. Hundreds of civilians have been killed just in the past couple weeks alone. It hasn't stopped.

[B]

So they might have done that intentionally then.

[A]

100%. 100%. I mean, their plan is to have this greater Israel, you know, that takes over part of Syria. I mean, I'm a proud Syrian. The President of Syria was just recently in the White House, meaning the President Trump. And yet I was just reaching, reading about a young man who had just gotten married in southern Syria and then Israel invaded and they killed him.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

You know, and dozens of Syrian civilians just recently killed by Israel.

[B]

So they're in Syria now.

[A]

They've been encroaching in Syria. I mean, they've occupied the Kolan Heights for some time now. They're again sending their forces and their bombs and their bullets into the villages on the border. All we want is peace. The problem with Israel, I'm very clear about it, is that the people claim, the Zionists claim that they want a Jewish democracy. Well, that's an oxymoron. You really can't have a Jewish democracy when the majority of people there are not Jewish. If you include the Arab, Christian and Muslim Palestinians that are in Gaza, that are in the West Bank, Jews will no longer be a majority in the land that they call Israel. And so it can't both be Jewish and a democracy. And I think they're choosing Jewish identity over democracy. And there's no real democracy. That's why President Jimmy Carter said published a book about Israel being an apartheid state. If you are a Christian in Palestine, you literally have less legal rights than the Jews there. And that's discriminatory. We believe in a one state solution. One land for all people and one person, one voice. Equality under the law. That's what we're calling for. We're calling for equal rights for all in that land. And that's what they're against. We support equality, freedom, liberty and democracy. They support an apartheid genocidal ethnostate.

[B]

Yeah. So that being said, I know you're very optimistic, but is there a realistic solution to all this or do you think there's just going to be fighting non stop?

[A]

I mean, look, it's quite interesting and I Think Muslims and Christians have a lot in common in terms of sort of the end of times theology. Right? I mean, ultimately both the Muslims and the Christians actually believe Jesus, peace be upon him, will return. And people are shocked to believe that, that we as Muslims believe Jesus descend from the heavens, come to earth and establish justice amongst humanity. But I think we're all responsible for what we do on a day to day. I believe life is a simulation, it's a test, it's an illusion. God put us here to do the one form of worship we can do that the angels can't do, and that's that we can sacrifice for God to make the world better. The angels can't sacrifice, really, because they're not tempted. In the Islamic theology, angels are pure, they're sinless, they can't sacrifice. They have no oppression, no hunger, no wealth, no desire for wealth. So they can't get the blessings of sacrificing to help the poor, to help the needy, to speak truth, to power, to serve God, to make the world better. When you sacrifice for God, you become beloved to God. This is why in Islamic theology, the righteous human who sacrifices to make the world better is greater and more beloved to God than the angels. So I believe this life is a test for each and every one of us. And as long as we're speaking out for truth and we're trying to help the poor and the needy and the oppressed children, we're winning no matter what the outward results are.

[B]

When you say sacrifice, can you explain, expand on that? Because I think like physically, but yeah.

[A]

So I mean, it's any form of sacrifice. So sacrifice could be sacrificing your ego, not being arrogant. If you're in a relationship and your partner upsets you, sacrificing your anger. Right. Sacrificing your greed, giving in charity, being willing to sacrifice your job. If you're going to criticize Israel's genocide and you may lose your job, but you still speak out, you know, so just any form of sacrifice, that's the one worship we can do that the angels cannot do. Whatever good you do that requires sacrifice is the key to the divine love. Because look at it within your own life, you will never love those that have never sacrificed for you like you love those that have sacrificed for you.

[B]

Wow, that's deep. But it's true.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The respect isn't there if they haven't sacrificed.

[A]

Exactly. You know, one of the greatest Muslim scholars, he gave a beautiful example, Ibn Qayyim, he said that when our Father Adam, peace Be upon him descended from the heavens to the earth. Our enemy Satan rejoiced. He celebrated because Adam is leaving the world of peace and tranquility to coming down to this world of finite, temporary loss and suffering. So Satan thought this was the downfall of Adam. But Imam Al Qayyim writes that Satan didn't recognize that only when the diver descends from the top of the ocean to the bottom can he collect rare and valuable pearls and bring it back up. Likewise, God sending Adam and us into this world is just like a diver coming down. We have a limited amount of breaths, then we go back up to our real life and we were sent on a mission. What's that mission? To collect rare and valuable pearls. What are those rare and valuable pearls? They're the acts of worship that even the angels in the heavens cannot do. What can we do that the angels can't do? We can sacrifice for God. The angels cannot sacrifice for God. And what does sacrificing for God mean? It literally means working to make the world better. Because you can't honor the Creator if you don't honor his creation. You can't claim to love God but then dishonor his creation. It doesn't work like that. You know, if you read the Quran, it's a very beautiful, beautiful theme which the Quran starts by humbling you, reminding you that you are nothing. God is everything. You are weak, God is great. Once you're humble, then you appreciate everything. God gives you. Vision, hearing, sight, sound, heart, consciousness, mind. You appreciate all of God's blessings. This is why a person who's connected with the divine, they don't get bored because they even recognize the beauty of seeing color, the beauty of nature, the beauty of being, you know? So you become grateful. When you're grateful, then you fall in love. You love God, God, you've given me so much, even though I don't deserve it. And I can never repay you. So when you love God, then you're willing to sacrifice. When you're willing to sacrifice, you can make the world better. You give in charity, you help the poor, you speak out against injustice. And when you make the world better, you're honoring God, you become beloved to God. So that's the whole theme, Quran in a nutshell.

[B]

Beautiful. Yeah. Being grateful and you know, being humble is very important to me.

[A]

It's the essence. The Quran says, what would God gain by punishing you if you give thanks and believe? In another verse, it says that if you thank me, I will increase you. And I believe just God created us for us to express gratitude, to sacrifice and express gratitude. That's what it is. And when you're grateful, you find happiness. The prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said the first people to enter heaven on the day of judgment. And those who enter heaven without judgment are those who thank God in good times and bad times. They love God so much, they trust God so much, they rely on God so much that no matter what happens in life, good or bad, they're always grateful. They always thank God through that. They enter heaven without judgment. And the truth of the matter is, they're in heaven even now in terms of their heart, because they're not shaken by every little calamity that happens in life. They realize that God never takes, he only gives. Every loss is just an opportunity for us to get something better or do something better. So it either teaches you or it elevates you. So I believe that our elevation is through our tribulation, that nothing bad ever happens. That whatever happens to us, even the things we hate the most, it's God's way of elevating us, teaching us, enriching us. And as long as we have the gratitude attitude, then our elevation will always come, even through our tribulation.

[B]

Damn, that is powerful, man. I didn't know you had the spiritual side to you.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I'm most passionate about, bro. I mean, that's what drives everything I do, what drives my charity work, my political work, my. My social media work, my legal work. I believe we were put on earth as God's representatives. You know the Quran, it's actually a beautiful story that God told the angels. I'm appointing a representative on earth, an ambassador, a vice Sharon on earth. And the angels said, oh, God, will you place on the earth those who will cause corruption and shed blood while we glorify you and sing your praise? And that's a profound question, because when you look on social media, when you look on the news, that's exactly what human beings are doing. They're shedding blood, they're causing corruption. And the angels themselves ask, and this is a question we should all ask ourselves, why did God create us? Well, he created us to worship him, but he already had angels that worship him without doing all the bad things that we do. And again, the answer is because we have the freedom to be God's enemies when we do evil. We have the opportunity to be God's friends and his most beloved when we do good in this earth. That's why we're here again to serve him and to Be grateful. You know, angels, they have intellect but no desire. Humans, animals have desire and no intellect. Humans have both intellect and desire. When we choose our intellect over our desire, we rise higher in the sight of God than the angels. When we choose our desires over our intellect, we fall worse in the sight of God than animals.

[B]

That is fascinating. And I feel like a lot of people fall into desire.

[A]

I mean, desire is the destroyer of kings. I mean, desire can make kings into slaves, right? And the Quran says, have you seen the one who has taken his desires as his God? And it could be very, very destructive. And all the spiritual paths teach mastering one's desire. You know, the Quran gives an example that the one who worships God alone, they're in a very high point. But when they go to seek, to worship, to desire other than God, then one of two things happens to them. Either a violent wind snatches them and drops them in a valley, or birds tear them to pieces. And that's a metaphor, it's an example. The violent wind represents one's own desires. You think that, okay, if I get this girl, I'll be happy. If I go to this party, I'll be happy. If I get this much money, I'll be happy. If I buy this car, I'll be happy. And you spend your whole life chasing, chasing, chasing, chasing. And most people don't even get everything they chase. And even when they get it, they start losing it until they lose their own life. And their desires just lead them to ruin. They never find satisfaction. The birds represent people. Instead of trying to please God who wants what's best for you, people get busy just trying to please others, right? And so people take advantage of, use you and just tear you apart. But when you keep God as number one in your life and he only wants what's best for you because he made you for Him. God created the whole universe for us, and he made us for him to have that loving relationship with Him. So when we put God first and we control our desires, we can be the best version of ourselves and we can make the world better. That's what it's all about, my brother.

[B]

This is. This is really powerful stuff, man. Thank you for sharing all this.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Yeah. It sounds like you've done a lot of research on this.

[A]

Well, it's how I try to live my life, man. I'm just very grateful. I'm very grateful to be present, to be alive, to be Muslim, to be American, to be a lawyer, to have everything that I have. And I want to express gratitude to God. And I feel the best way to do that is by sharing his love and serving his creation. And that's what Prophet Muhammad taught me, my mentor, my example.

[B]

Do you still believe these angels are around? You've mentioned angels.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I believe angels are absolutely around.

[B]

In a physical sense or spiritual.

[A]

I mean, it's hard to explain. Right. I mean, I believe there are other dimensions. I believe in the multiverse. I believe there's. There's realities around us right now that we can't even see or tap into. But I believe angels are real. And God appoints angels to protect us, to record our actions, to testify for or against us. But ultimately, it's God alone that's in charge. He has no partners, no equals. He's in control.

[B]

So guardian angels, almost.

[A]

We believe in guardians, but again, it's a form of means. Everything comes from God. So, for example, if I'm hungry and you provide me food, I believe God provided me the food through you.

[B]

Whoa. So, like channeling, almost.

[A]

Well, a means. God made the world a world of means. So in Islamic theology, we believe God can just say be and everything is. But he created the world in stages. In the Quran, says he created it in six days. That's to teach us an example that if you want anything, you have to work for it, you have to plan it. And if you want to be a successful leader, you need to delegate. God doesn't need to delegate. He has all power at all times. He's infinite in his strength and his knowledge and his capabilities. He neither gains nor loses. And that's another thing which is very interesting. Interesting because we also. We don't believe God can sacrifice. Right. I think in some Christian theology, they believe, oh, well, God sacrificed his son for us. God is infinite and. And he cannot lose, he cannot sacrifice. We are the ones that sacrifice for him. So with all that being said, we believe God's in charge, but he has. We believe there's angels. We believe there's spirits called the jinn, which is interesting.

[B]

I believe in jinn.

[A]

Yeah. Which is why even they call the alcoholic drink drinks gin.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Right. And. And people start acting like a gin when they could be taking much of it. Exactly. And it weakens the heart and the mind. And the gin can have more influence. And look for, you know, if, you know, people that have explored with psychedelics, I mean, people feel like they've seen gin, they've seen different things. It's, you know, I've had it run in with Jen. Wow.

[B]

I think some of them have been weaponized by government agencies.

[A]

You know, I, I believe that they are, they are working to bring about the Antichrist and to support the Antichrist. And we believe in the Antichrist. It's interesting because I think the Zionists, they're waiting for their sort of Messiah to come. We believe that will be the Antichrist and the Muslims and the Christians will unite to fight against him. Wow.

[B]

So that you actually see them uniting.

[A]

Oh, 100%. We will be united.

[B]

Because right now there's so much divide.

[A]

Yeah. And who's behind it? Those that are supporting the coming of the Antichrist, who they believe is the Messiah.

[B]

So there's a game being played.

[A]

There's a game being played. And the game is to turn Muslims and Christians against, against each other. That's why I'm very passionate about bringing us together. And then I do believe when we fight the Antichrist, eventually Jesus will return and he will unite us. Now when he returns, we believe he will tell us, worship the Creator. He's greater than I. And that's what it even says in the Bible. You know, don't call me good. You know, he is the good one, you know, but he will unite us in worshiping God alone. And that's the essence of Islamic theology. And the difference. Look, I'll be very frank with you. There's definitely real differences between Christianity and Islam. I don't believe that interfaith dialogue and friendship is where we pretend to agree with each other on everything and then build a false friendship based on that. I believe real interfaith relationship is where we recognize we have real differences. But these differences need not divide us from working towards what our faith calls us to. What does Christianity call people to? Helping the poor, helping the needy, helping the oppressed. Same as what Islam calls for. We need to unite on that. But yeah, I do believe there's active forces trying to turn us Muslims and Christians against each other. But I think believe they will fail. And more and more people are waking up. And that's why right now you're seeing a manufactured increase of anti Muslim sentiment on X. In particular, they're trying to scapegoat us and turn us against each other.

[B]

Yeah, X is just the wild west right now.

[A]

It really is.

[B]

Like, I thought I was really excited when Elon took over. At first I thought it'd be an overall positive, but now I don't know.

[A]

Well, I mean, it's wild because you could say, like, you could say something about Muslims, about Christians. You say the same thing about, you know, Jews and It'll, it'll censor you, but it won't do the same for the others. Why is there special protection? There shouldn't be special protection for any group. In my opinion. It should be equal treatment for everyone. The other thing is, you write anti Muslim posts. They're going viral.

[B]

Yeah, super viral.

[A]

Super viral and everything, bro. I put a message about let's have peace amongst Jews, amongst Christians. It doesn't attract attention. But. But some idiot says something stupid about Islam, they don't even know what they're talking about, and it just goes viral. The algorithm is supporting it and that's a problem, but that's why I think, man, we just got to get to know each other. So I always have this invitation, especially for those who hate Muslims. Come and get to know us. Come break bread with us. You know, let's get to know each other and see how can we keep America the best nature. Because at the. Listen, I'm Muslim, my children are Muslim. Maybe someone else is Christian, their children are Christian. At the end of the day, our children are going to grow up here. And I want America to be the best place for my children and your children, all of our children together. We're not going to be here for long. We're leaving this earth for our children. What kind of world do we want to leave them?

[B]

Right. So you don't limit when it comes to your children's friendships if the other person isn't a Muslim or.

[A]

Yeah, you know, my father, who I just, I just visited in Santa Monica, was just a great example for me. What I really respect and appreciate about him is growing up. Whenever, like Jehovah's Witness would come over, he would invite me, come, son, listen to them. Learn from them.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Make your own decision about life, because religion cannot come through force. You know, it has to be a choice from within the heart. And you can't really make that choice if you haven't studied what else is out there. And I'm very grateful. My father also growing up, man, when I was younger, I was like, man, I just, I pray my, my father could just have the longest life because he really raised me with a message of building interfaith relations. Not a fake one where we all sing Kumbaya. Tend to agree. No, we recognize real differences, but we navigate them to serve the Creator together. You know, that's what it's about. So he would take me with him to so many churches that he spoke at and just very, very blessed to have built really strong relationships with people, different faiths because of the upbringing that I had.

[B]

Fascinating. So very open minded, 100%.

[A]

And this was the teachings of our sheikh, our scholar. He was the Grand Mufti of Syria, Sheikh Ahmed Kuftaro. People can look up his book the Way of Truth, where he spoke at the UN and at the Vatican and all over the world about, listen, if we all claim to believe in God, then we have to work together to serve God, you know, and you cannot claim to serve God when your belly is full and your neighbor is hungry. Doesn't matter what they, what religion they are. Right. If you believe there is one God, then you believe he's the God of us all. And if you know you belong to God, I have to honor you. I can't claim to love your creator, but hate you as a person. It's not how it works.

[B]

A lot of debate right now about Shariah law.

[A]

Yeah. Or Shakira Allah or Shanay Allah. They don't even know what it is, bro. They don't even know what it is. But, but again, this is exactly one of those red herrings, like there is no threat of Sharia. People don't even understand what Sharia is. Sharia literally means the path, the path to water, the path to success. And it's based on preservation of five things, the same five things that the U.S. constitution seeks to protect. Sharia is about the preserving. It's called maqasa, the Sharia, the goals of Sharia, it's about protecting religion, honor, intellect, wealth and health.

[B]

I could get behind that.

[A]

That's all what it's about. And anything that is prohibited in Sharia is prohibited because it harms those things. So like as Muslims, we don't drink. Why? Because alcohol could harm your honor, could harm your health, could harm your wealth. So it's prohibited. But as part of Sharia, we are not allowed to enforce it on others. 100%. Even under Islamic rule, like in the Islamic civilization. I mean, if you study history, you see the most tolerant civilizations were the Islamic civilization. And so they would have a universal law that applies to everyone. Like, you can't kill, you can't steal. When it comes to human rights, those are universal. But when it comes to the spiritual, the religious rights, whether you can drink, alcohol, marriage, all these things, then every religious group, like the Muslims, the Christians, the Jews, they would have their own courts and their own judges by which they would answer to. So you would live under Islamic civilization, but you're Jewish or you're Christian, well, you report to the Christian or to the Jewish Judge not to the Muslim judge when it comes to the personal affairs. And Islam really emphasized protection of minorities and others. The Prophet Muhammad said, whoever harms a Jew or a Christian living under a Muslim rule, I will be the advocate for that Jew or Christian against the Muslim on the day of judgment.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

In another example, I mean, if you visit Syria, which I would love to host you there, I mean, it's incredible. Damascus, where I was born, is the oldest living city on Earth, over 4,000 years old, continuously inhabited. And you go in the center, there's the Umayyad Mosque. The Umayyad mosque used to be a Byzantine temple. After that, it became a church. When Islam spread into Damascus, the Muslims actually asked the Christians, hey, we need a place to pray. This is a big temple you're using as a church. Do you mind if we share some space with you? And they said, sure, no problem. The situation was, however, the Muslims kept growing through voluntary conversion as people resonated with the message that God is one, Honor humanity. So people started becoming Muslims. As they started becoming Muslim, they started to outnumber the Christians. Guess what they did? They kicked the Christians out. And this is under the Islamic rule. So what did the Christians do? They went to the Islamic judge and said, this is our church. You guys kicked us out. This is not acceptable. You know what the judge ruled? God will never accept a prayer on stolen land. The Muslims must evacuate the mosque. This is under the Islamic caliphate. This is under the Khalifa. Under Sharia law. The Muslims were up. Meanwhile, if you visit Europe, you won't find any ancient mosques because they were destroyed by the Crusaders and by the Inquisition. They didn't protect our mosques, but we protected their churches. When I'm in Syria, my neighbors are Christian. Their church is next to the mosque. They still speak Aramaic, the original language of Jesus Christ in parts of Syria. You know, I was just in Syria in the beginning of the year doing charity work with my Christian neighbors. It's a beautiful thing. So get this. When the judge ordered the Muslims out, the Muslims said, but, your honor, there's literally no room for us. Where else are we going to pray? He's like, not my problem. You got to deal. Figure it. Make a deal with the Christians. So they went to the Christians and they said, listen, we need the place. How can we work something out? They said, all right, we'll make you a deal. You Muslims can have the Umayyad mosque and you can pray there. We could turn it into a mosque on the condition you build four churches for us around the mosque. If you do that, we'll do it in even trade, they said. Sure. So to this very day, you'll see the four churches around the Umayyad Mosque that was built by Muslims for Christians. This was under Islamic rule. No other empire treated minorities like that.

[B]

That's actually impressive.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know your history.

[A]

I love to live it, man. Wow.

[B]

I did not know that at all. I would have assumed they wouldn't let them back.

[A]

No, that's because this is the essence of Islam. That God is one. And. Okay, we may disagree with your theology, but I can't dishonor you. The Quran itself says, do not insult the gods that they call upon. Do not disrespect others. Honor, honor people. The Quran has a very beautiful message. It says, listen, righteousness is not that. You pray to the east or the West. Muslims pray to the East, Christians were praying to the West. That's not what righteousness is. What you call yourself, how you label yourself. Righteousness is to believe in God in the last day, to help the poor, to help the needy, to support those that are oppressed, to be patient in times of anger. That's what righteousness is. It's not what you label yourself. See, people don't understand. Islam really is universal. It means peace through surrender to God. And a Muslim is one who surrenders to God. So as a Muslim, I actually believe that was the message of all of the prophets. I believe Abraham taught Islam because he taught peace through submission to God. I believe he was Muslim, he surrendered to God. I even believe in a respectful way that Jesus was Muslim. What does Muslim mean? One who surrenders to God. And we believe Jesus surrendered to God. We believe he taught peace through submission to God. So we believe he taught Islam. You don't find in the Bible Jesus or Moses or Abraham saying, God has sent me to teach you Judaism or Christianity and you must become Jews or Christians. They never use that language. Language, but they did use the language. Surrender to God. Have peace with God. Give yourself to God. So we believe all of God's prophets, they were all taught Islam and they themselves were Muslim. They may have had different rules, different laws, but in terms of the faith, it was all, have peace through surrender to God. Even when you read the Bible, how did Jesus greet his companions? He said, peace be with you. That's how we Muslims greet each other. Peace be with you. You find Jesus, when he prayed, he would get on his knees, his hands, his forehead, bowing down to God. We bow down to God. The Prophet Muhammad gave us a beautiful example. He Said the prophets before me are all brothers, paternal brothers, their mothers are different, but their religion is one. And I am the final of these messengers. And the closest messenger to me is Jesus. There was none between him and I, you know, he said the example the prophets before me and like me is like someone builds a beautiful building, everyone sees that building, says it's missing a cornerstone. He didn't say I came to demolish and build my own. He said I'm that cornerstone. I just came to complete the message. Just surrender to one God alone, Honor his creation. That's it.

[B]

Beautiful man. Do you believe in any modern day prophets?

[A]

No. I believe Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was the final messenger of God. I believe the Quran. One of the big reasons I'm Muslim is the Quran is literally, and I will challenge anyone with $10,000 to prove me otherwise. It's the only book that claims to be from God, that was never changed throughout history. So we believe the Quran is the literal word of God. The Prophet Muhammad was the final messenger of God. And because the Quran was never changed, there's no need for an additional prophet. Now that being said, I do believe there's many friends of God that are out there. I believe that God may also give a kind of encouragement, inspiration perhaps through dreams, but nothing that would, you know, change the divine law or set a new creed for humanity, you know, but it's not that complicated. People over complicate religion. Dude, it's very simple. You came from God, you're going to return to God, be grateful to God, honor his creation. That's it. And God is one. That is it.

[B]

There's so many religious debates, but you just dumbed it down.

[A]

That's it man. And for us, we believe anyone who declares that no one is worthy of worship but God alone and Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad are messengers of God. Whoever says that once, they're guaranteed heaven forever. That's it.

[B]

Are you serious?

[A]

100%.

[B]

What if you commit heinous acts?

[A]

Now if you commit heinous acts, it depends on what kind of heinous acts those are and I'll tell you why. Because the Prophet Muhammad taught us that there's God's rights and human rights. What do you think is greater in Islam? God's rights or human rights based off.

[B]

How you're talking, is it God?

[A]

It's actually human rights. Why? Because God is infinite, you can never harm him. But humans are weak. If I disrespect God, if I dishonor God, it doesn't harm him. But if I steal your phone. If I gossip against you, if I injure you, I cause you real harm. This is why the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, he gave the beautiful example. He said that, do you know who the bankrupt person is? And they said, you know, the bankrupt person, the one who lost his money. He said, no, the bankrupt person is the one who goes to God on the Day of Judgment. Having fasted a lot, prayed a lot, went to the mosque a lot. But he gossiped against this person, he made fun of this person, he injured this person, he stole from this person on the Day of Judgment, God will take away all the good that he did and give it in compensation to the people he hurt until they are left with no good deeds and they are bankrupt. So you can't simply ask God for heaven and declare his oneness and at the same time cause oppression to others. If you've caused oppression to others, you have to fix it. If you don't fix it, you got to make up for on the Day of Judgment and then eventually you enter heaven as well.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

So I guess to answer a nutshell, if anyone even watching this says, you know, I declare there's nothing worthy of worship but God alone and Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad are messengers of God, then they're guaranteed heaven. But if they've injured people and didn't put a sincere effort to make up for it, they may have to compensate for that first.

[B]

So even gossiping is a form of.

[A]

Gossiping is the worst of sins.

[B]

A lot of people are guilty, though.

[A]

The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, taught us that, like, basically gossiping, backbiting, it's like worse than like fornication because look at how many. Look, when you fornicate, I mean, assuming that, you know, you're not cheating on someone, but if you're fornicating, you're not really hurting anyone. You may just hurt yourself, catch a disease or something like that. You know what I'm saying? Be careful. But, you know, you're not really hurting anyone. But when you're gossiping, you're causing injury.

[B]

Because you're putting out that energy.

[A]

Yeah, well, you're putting out the energy, but you're also hurting someone's reputation, hurting someone's honor. You may be tearing friends apart, you may be dividing communities, you know, so for us it's called, you know, it's called backbiting because you're literally like eating the flesh of your brother. It's one of the worst of sins in the Islamic tradition to speak about people behind their back.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know if you believe in evil eye, but we do. Oh, you do? I believe in that. And, like, I don't put out good news anymore.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's a real thing. It's a real thing. Unfortunately, the evil eye is real. The Prophet Muhammad said the evil eye is real. And we also have protection from the Quran that. To protect against the evil eye, to protect against magic, to protect against jealousy and hatred. These things like the evil eye, you gotta understand. Jealousy, envy, I mean, arrogance, these are an ingratitude and even racism, really. These were all the first sins of the Satan, you know, because God honored Adam and Satan said, why would you honor him? I'm better than him. You created me from fire, you created him from clay. I'm better than him, you know, and. And he was jealous, you know, and this is the thing. You got to be very careful if you're religious, because in the Islamic tradition, we believe there isn't a place on earth. Satan didn't bow to God before he disobeyed. He was very righteous, but he was only righteous outwardly. He didn't really love God. He wasn't sincere. So his arrogance, his jealousy took him the wrong direction. So as Muslims, we're always taught to be humble. You know, some of my Christian friends, I'd say, oh, you Christian, you Muslims, you don't like to say you're a guaranteed heaven? No, listen, if we declare there's nothing worthy of worship but God, Muhammad is a messenger. God willing, we're guaranteed heaven. But we're not going to live a life telling everyone, yeah, we're guaranteed heaven. And then we start mistreating and being arrogant and abusing. That's how abuse, abuse happens, you know? So we're taught to be humble. We understand. We get to heaven through God's generosity, his mercy, not through our righteous deeds, but our righteous deeds are important. That's how you ask for God's mercy.

[B]

What role and influence do you see Satan playing today?

[A]

A huge role, man. I mean, I think he's behind Hollywood. He's behind the pornography industry. He's behind the issues of, you know, the breakdown of the family. I mean, the politics that we're dealing with. But, but you got to remember, Satan's ability is limited to whispering, to planting bad ideas.

[B]

So he can't just outright.

[A]

No, no, but he uses people, right? And he whispers and some people give in. Like, don't give in to the satanic, Satanic whispers. And people do that. So you got to think about, I mean, have People even thought about where do our thoughts come from? Like I'm going to say a word, where did it come from? You know, there's, you know, it's in the Islamic tradition we believe thoughts, actions that are inspired, they can be inspired from God, they can be inspired from angels, they can be inspired from other people, or they can be inspired from jinn and Satan. And so we learn actually how to differentiate between the different ideas.

[B]

Wow, that's powerful.

[A]

Yes. And, and, and then apply in a health.

[B]

How do you pull that off?

[A]

So by studying under, under a lot of the great scholars and they've sort of identified like, like, okay, if some, some, some sort of thoughts, it may actually even come from the own lower self. So it may come from the lower self. These kinds of thoughts, they're probably coming from Satan. These kinds of thoughts are angelic, these kinds of thoughts are from the divine. And so there's a tradition. I think a lot of times the problem people have is they just assume too much about God the Creator. The only way you can really know him is through what he revealed about himself. And so it's not about this is what I think God is, or this is what I think about God is we don't live in confusion. You know, I meet with a lot of people and everyone's confused and searching. Like, dude, I'm not searching. You know what I'm saying? I know. And why do I know? Because, Because I know for a fact the Quran was never changed. And it claims to be from God and it was never changed. If the Quran isn't from God, no other book is from God. That's just a fact. If the Quran isn't from God, and we know the Bible's been changed many times, but it doesn't. And I think it's been changed so much that they incorporated pagan Roman beliefs. It doesn't reflect the pure message of Jesus, who I believe was a pure monotheist. The Quran was never changed. It calls to monotheism and it has such powerful arguments you can't deny. I mean, I was watching these verses, listening to these verses the other day. God says in the Quran, don't the disbelievers see that the heavens and earth were one body and we pulled it apart? What does that sound like, the Big bang? The heavens and the earth were one body and we pulled it apart. They didn't know that 1400 years ago. And then, and we created from water every living thing. Now modern science tells us water is the basis of life and we made the Mountains as pegs in the earth so it doesn't shake with you. Only in the last like 50 to 100 years did they realize the mountains are deeper under earth than the above earth and prevent earthquakes. This is a modern theological discovery. Then it says, we made the heaven, the sky, as a protective canopy. Now we understand that the Earth has a protective canopy in the ozone layer and the magnetic field as well that protect from the solar flares, that protect from the cosmic rays. So it talks about the, the Earth having a protective canopy. Then it says, and we made the sun and the moon each have their own orbit. 1400 years ago they didn't know the sun has its own orbit in the universe. So here you talk about the Big bang, you talk about the mountains preventing earthquakes, you talk about the protective canopy, you talk about the, the sun having its own solar direction in the earth. It's its own, sorry, what do you call orbit in the universe? And then God says, we created all this and you're going to return to us. So prepare for that meeting. You know we can't. You came from us, you're going to return to us. So it gave so many scientific arguments that of things that people didn't realize 1400 years ago. And the message is, you're going to return to us, so prepare for that meeting. How do you prepare for that meeting? Thank God, recognize he's one and serve his creation.

[B]

That is mind blowing. You said earlier heaven and earth were one.

[A]

Yes, that the heavens and the earth were all one body. And then we pulled it apart. Wow, that is literally. I'll show you the verse later. I'll even play the recording for you. It's crazy, mesmerizing.

[B]

What time period would that be in?

[A]

This was 1400 years ago.

[B]

Oh, that's not that long.

[A]

1400. Yeah. But they didn't know that 1400 years ago. I tell you that the Big Bang was only discovered, you know, within the several decades. In another verse it says, we created the heavens with our power and we are expanding it now. Modern science tells us the universe is expanding. They didn't know that 1400 years ago. It's scientific fact after scientific fact. The the some of the greatest scientists who are behind modern embryology became Muslim when they read what the Quran says. Modern embryology, the way the Quran describes the human embryo at the microscopic stages, when they had no technology to know it again, they became Muslim. So I highly encourage people to research the Quran and science. Here's another thing, bro, the miraculous thing about the Quran is the numbers. So for example, the Quran mentions land and sea. The word land and the word sea in direct proportion to the ratio of land and sea to the earth.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

So the earth is about 70. I don't remember the exact number, I can look it up for you. But it's about 71 or 72% sea and like and then the 28% land. That's the proportion of land to sea on earth. The, the sea. The word sea is mentioned in the Quran. 71 of the time the word land is mentioned. It's the exact proportion. It's not a coincidence. And then you look at words like the, like the word day is mentioned 365 times in the Quran. The word heavens and, and earth. The word day and night is mentioned in equal proportions. The word like angel and demon mention equal port. It's, it's, it's wild. I gotta, I gotta show you this stuff.

[B]

I'd have to read this thing. Yeah, yeah. This is really impressive.

[A]

So the Quran, that's, it basically has all these numeric miracles, scientific miracles, and then it says God is one. You were cre, you came from God. God created you. You're going to return to him, live a grateful life, Remember him. Be grateful, you'll be successful. That's it. Control your ego, control your desires, give back. Be a source of mercy for humanity and you'll succeed. You'll be happy in this life and life to come. But I think it's very important people realize like this isn't our real home, man. This is not our real home. It's too fragile. What's then? I mean, what's standing between me and returning to God right now? This neck, God forbid, a car accident, a heart attack. How easy could life go? And when people die, there's no going back. You know, there's literally no coming back. I know people have their different theology, I mean that we believe in a resurrection eventually, but there's no coming back to that. This life as you know it.

[B]

What do you think about near death experiences? How people die for like minutes and then they report seeing God and then.

[A]

Well, I think it's very simple to very similar to psychedelic experiences. I think it opens the idea to people that there's much more than what meets the eye. Right. And, and people can experience, people can experience simulated death through psychedelic experience. Now there's no way to know if that's anything like the real death. Right? But you know, I think all of that is a reminder like, wow, this life is just the blink of an eye. And people also have to understand mathematics. Look, any number divided BY infinity is zero percent. So whether you're alive in this earth for 10 years, 50 years, 100 years, a million years, what percent of eternity.

[B]

Is that right?

[A]

Zero percent?

[B]

Yeah, it's nothing.

[A]

So this life is a blink of an eye. The Quran says that on the day of judgment, people will be asked, how long were you in the earth? How many years? And they will say, years? We were on the earth for a day or half a day. Ask those who kept counting, and they were told you were there for a very little time. If only you knew. And the people who didn't make the most of this time on earth, they will say, I wish I prepared for my real life. You know, we believe the real life is life to come. Doesn't mean you dishonor this life. No, you are entrusted. You're a caretaker of this life. You're an ambassador of God on this earth. And what does it mean to be an ambassador of God? And that's what the Quran calls us. It says, I'm appointing a representative on earth. What does it mean to be God's representative? It means to do the work God loves to be done in each, every circumstance. When people are hungry, God's ambassador feeds them for the sake of God, on behalf of God. People are thirsty. God's ambassador gives them water. When they're misguided, he strives to guide them. That's where God's pleasure is found. You know, a tradition says that on the day of Judgment, someone will be called to God. And God will say, listen, I was hungry and you didn't feed me. I was thirsty and you didn't give me water. I was sick and you didn't help take care of me and God. The person will say, God, how could you be sick, hungry, thirsty? And God, of course, doesn't become sick, sick, hungry or thirsty, but God will say, my servant was hungry. Had you fed him, you would have found me there. My servant was thirsty. Had you gave them water, you would have found me there. The prophet Muhammad said, the one who takes care of the widows and the needy, in the sight of God, they are equal to the one who prays all night and fasts all day. God's pleasure is found in service to the others.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's overall pretty good when it comes to, like, homeless people. Like, but they're on drugs or they're addicted. Like, are you still giving to those people too? What's your approach with that?

[A]

I think you gotta. You, you have to build programs to get them out of those circumstances. You know, one of the wild statistics is there's actually more vacant homes in the world than there are homeless people.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

How is that possible?

[A]

It's wild. Well, because the markets and the different things and the investment properties and people locking up assets. But I think the. The homeless problem of people on, especially when they're drugs and they're sort of, you know, creating that situation, I think is a reflection of the breakdown of society. Like, how many of these people came from single parent households?

[B]

Probably a lot, right?

[A]

A lot of them. How many? That's why Islam says, listen, don't f around outside of marriage. Because it's. It's not about you and the girl, bro. It's about the child. That facts. You know, I grew up.

[B]

My parents got divorced when I was 10, and I would never want that for my kids.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

It's terrible.

[B]

It's tough.

[A]

It's so. Look, so a lot of my practice is divorce law, family law in my own law firm. But I try my very best to help parties avoid it. I tell them, listen, in life, you only have two choices. You can be with an imperfect person or you can be alone.

[B]

Well, no one's perfect.

[A]

Exactly. So you can be with an imperfect person or you can be alone. And sometimes it feels easier to be alone. But that's not what's easier long term.

[B]

No. They've done studies on lifespan for people that are alone versus 100%.

[A]

So I always tell people, listen. What? You're unhappy with your husband, you're unhappy with your wife because A, B and C, work to heal, work to grow. Because if you just, okay, you're unhappy, you move on to the next relationship. How do you know you're not gonna have the same problems? Eventually the honeymoon phase is gonna wear out. And I think people are too used to instant gratification. That's why sky high divorce rates and just a lack of. Of loyalty. And the children are the ones that pay the price. That's why as a lawyer, I would say, listen, even if I'm representing the mom or dad, I'm like, dude, I don't care about you guys. I care about your kids. They're innocent in all this. I love that, you know, with the.

[B]

Divorce rates in the Muslim community are some of the lowest. Right.

[A]

They were. But unfortunately, I feel like, you know, the Muslim community is. I'm not a fan of, like, you know, I'm a fan of integration. I'm not necessarily a Fan of, like, assimilation. Because I feel like you're assimilating into a very toxic culture nowadays where, you know, there's no respect for family. There's really no respect even for. For leadership amongst men or appreciation for fathers and letting husbands be the guide for the family. There's no respect for the woman to be a caretaker of the children. You know, everyone feels like they have to work and get out there, and they really dishonor this idea of being a. A caretaker for the home and raising children. I think that's the most noble work, and I think it's very noble. In the Islamic tradition, the husband is entrusted to provide for the family. There's no splitting the bills. 50, 50. The husband is fully responsible for the financial support of the household, and the wife is responsible to take care of the home with the husband's financial support and to honor her husband. I feel like the modern culture has just destroyed that, you know, people 100%, you know, and the kids pay the price of that, unfortunately. And people end up misrepresented, miserable. They really end up miserable as a result. And there's this delusion, well, if I get divorced, I'll be much happier alone. You know, I've sacrificed so much for the kids. This Islam teaches that you prefer others to yourselves. You don't just worship yourself, right? So you're gonna put your kids first. Now, putting your kids first doesn't mean you stick in a miserable marriage for the sake of the kids, but it means you put the effort to make it happy. And I believe in most circumstances, unless there's like, serious abuse and other things, but in most situations, a just, people got bored, they lost the spark. They're not willing to put in the effort, and they could just swipe right and find their next entertainment instead. Islam teaches put in effort. The prophet Muhammad said he taught that a wife who is patient over a difficult husband gets the reward of the wife of the pharaoh. And a husband who's patient over a difficult wife gets the reward of job. What does it mean to be patient? It means invest in healing the relationship, get counseling, get the kind of support you need, and start taking responsibility. The problem is everyone's talking about my rights, my rights, my rights. Very few people ask, what is my responsibility. Islam teaches us, look at what your responsibilities. You will be questioned as a father, you will be questioned as a mother, you will be questioned. And your kids may testify against you on the day of judgment if you don't provide them the kind of nurturing care that they need. And Deserve. They can do that 100%. On the day of Judgment, kids will testify against their parents if their parents didn't provide them education, food, nurturing, care, love. You know, faith is crazy guidance.

[B]

They're still alive, though.

[A]

Well, on the Day of Judgment, everyone's resurrected. And on that day, people are just worried about myself, myself. You know, a mother, if she has a claim against her children, she will seek her rights from her children. There will be. Everyone will be made whole on the Day of Judgment. So if you've dishonored your parents, you will have to compensate them. If your parents have failed you, they will have to compensate you. And on that day, there's no trading with money and gold. The trading is only in righteous good deeds that you've sent ahead.

[B]

That's why I don't have any bad. I don't hold any resentment towards any relationships.

[A]

That's amazing. You know, the Prophet Muhammad saw a man, he said, God accepted your charity last night. And people said, what charity? He said, last night before I slept, I said, God, just anyone who's wronged me, I forgive them for your sake. I don't want to hold. Hold any grudges in my heart. Another time he said, the Prophet Muhammad said, this is a man of paradise. And so one of the companions went and spent three days with him. And finally after three days, like, dude, I don't see anything special about you. But the Prophet said, you're a man of paradise. What unique thing do you do? He said, I don't go to sleep at any night with a grudge in my heart towards anyone. I always keep a pure heart.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

You know, Islam teaches that whoever goes to God with a pure heart is safe. God describes the Day of Judgment in the Quran. It's a day where wealth and children will not benefit you, except for those who go to God with a pure heart, you know, and so keeping the heart pure of arrogance, of greed, of hate, of jealousy, filling it with the love of God and translating it into compassion and service for humanity, that's the message.

[B]

Beautiful, man. Dude, I love where we went with this conversation.

[A]

Yeah, I'm very enjoyable.

[B]

How could people watching this support you and keep up with you?

[A]

You know, just follow me on Instagram. If they need legal help and they need a good lawyer, go to muslimlegal. Otherwise, I'm active on Instagram, Hassan Shibley esq. Or on X, Hasan Shibli. Just keep in touch and whatever opportunities there are to build bridges and serve humanity together, that's what I'm about. So if anyone wants to do any good work together to make the world better, just reach out. Let's build bridges. Let's not let hate divide us.

[B]

Love it. Thanks so much for your time today.

[A]

My pleasure, brother. Thanks so much.

[B]

See you soon. I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.