How Legal Loopholes Exploit Small Businesses & Families I Tiffany Cianci & Ian Carroll DSH #1394

Summary

Digital Social Hour Episode Summary

Title: How Legal Loopholes Exploit Small Businesses & Families | Tiffany Cianci & Ian Carroll | DSH #1394
Release Date: June 6, 2025
Host: Sean Kelly
Guests: Tiffany Cianci & Ian Carroll
Description: In this episode, Tiffany Cianci and Ian Carroll delve into the intricate and often hidden legal mechanisms that undermine small businesses and families. They shed light on the pervasive use of arbitration agreements and secret courts that silence individuals and protect powerful corporations.

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1. Introduction to Legal Loopholes and Arbitration

The episode opens with Tiffany Cianci and Ian Carroll discussing the significant impact of arbitration agreements on small businesses and families. They highlight how these agreements are often buried within extensive contracts, unknowingly signed by individuals, leading to limited legal recourse.

Notable Quote:
Tiffany Cianci [00:34]: "Most of the people that end up in arbitration end up there because they sign something unknowingly."

2. The Secret World of Arbitration Courts

Candace Owens introduces the topic by mentioning the obscure nature of arbitration proceedings. Tiffany and Ian elaborate on how arbitration serves as a "secret court" where standard legal protections are often bypassed, leaving individuals with little chance to fight back.

Notable Quote:
Ian Carroll [01:05]: "It's a secret world that's been going on for ages. And the only people that really know about it are people that get caught in it."

3. The Mechanics of Arbitration Agreements

Tiffany Cianci explains the complexity and deceit embedded in arbitration agreements. These often include confidentiality clauses, non-disparagement agreements, and non-class action stipulations, which collectively silence plaintiffs and prevent public disclosure of grievances.

Notable Quote:
Tiffany Cianci [01:22]: "You’re signing hundreds of agreements you never even saw. And even if you had seen it, you didn’t have a lawyer. So you didn’t know what it meant."

4. Financial Barriers and Legal Fees

The conversation shifts to the financial burdens placed on individuals forced into arbitration. Tiffany shares her personal experience of mounting legal costs that drain resources, making it almost impossible to sustain a prolonged legal battle against well-funded corporations.

Notable Quote:
Tiffany Cianci [21:12]: "I had to put up enough money for all of us to do that three grand. I didn’t have it over and over again."

5. Corruption within the Arbitration System

Tiffany and Ian discuss the systemic corruption that plagues arbitration, particularly highlighting the role of Judge John Roberts in expanding the Federal Arbitration Act. They argue that arbitrators often have cozy relationships with corporations, resulting in biased rulings that favor large entities over individuals.

Notable Quote:
Tiffany Cianci [14:21]: "Chief Justice John Roberts has single handedly engineered this system."

6. Case Study: Urban Air and Unleashed Brands

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to Tiffany's legal battle against Unleashed Brands, the parent company of Urban Air trampoline parks. She details how arbitration was used to suppress her claims of negligence and malpractice, ultimately leading to personal and financial devastation.

Notable Quote:
Tiffany Cianci [07:05]: "This entire corruption has been propagated by really one man, which is horrifying to say."

7. The Role of the Federal Trade Commission (FTC)

Tiffany emphasizes the need for regulatory bodies like the FTC to intervene and provide oversight. She calls for increased transparency and accountability within the arbitration system to protect consumers and small business owners.

Notable Quote:
Tiffany Cianci [37:00]: "We need someone in the FTC to simply go downstairs and turn the light back on, please."

8. Proposed Solutions and Legislative Reforms

The guests propose several solutions to dismantle the abusive arbitration system. They advocate for simple legislative amendments that require arbitrators to adhere strictly to existing laws and for antitrust actions to break up monopolistic control within the arbitration industry.

Notable Quote:
Ian Carroll [17:12]: "Let's require arbitrators to follow the law. That would be the easiest law ever."

9. Personal Stories and Emotional Impact

Tiffany shares harrowing personal anecdotes, including a traumatic incident where she was coerced into an abortion during arbitration proceedings. These stories underscore the human cost of systemic legal exploitation.

Notable Quote:
Tiffany Cianci [51:20]: "It was the most horrific thing I’ve ever been through, and no arbitrator could look away from it."

10. The Future of Arbitration and Public Accountability

Concluding the episode, Tiffany and Ian express hope that increased public awareness and decentralized media will expose the flaws of the arbitration system. They call on listeners to take action by supporting legislative changes and holding regulatory bodies accountable.

Notable Quote:
Ian Carroll [35:27]: "This sort of decentralized media, this open media space, is changing the world every day."

11. Call to Action

The guests urge listeners to follow Tiffany and Ian on various social media platforms to stay updated on their ongoing fight against arbitration exploitation and to participate in advocacy efforts.

Notable Quote:
Tiffany Cianci [60:19]: "You can find me on TikTok and YouTube at Tiffany Cianci and on X and Instagram at T@vino mom."

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Conclusion:
This episode of Digital Social Hour provides a deep dive into the systemic issues within the arbitration system that disproportionately affect small businesses and families. Through personal narratives and expert analysis, Tiffany Cianci and Ian Carroll expose the legal loopholes and corrupt practices that hinder justice for the average American. They advocate for straightforward legal reforms and heightened regulatory oversight to dismantle these oppressive structures, emphasizing the urgent need for public awareness and legislative action.

Transcript

[Tiffany Cianci]

I believe.

[Ian]

And he would have done stuff about it.

[Tiffany Cianci]

He was going to push to keep her. And we knew Kamala was going to get rid of Lena Khan. I had meetings with a bunch of, like, Liberal journalists on TikTok and they were like, what would it take? Because, like, first of all, I don't endorse. And they're like, what would it take? Because, like, if she came out tomorrow and said, I'll keep Lina Khan, that would probably be enough to sway my vote. I'm not kidding. I thought Lina Khan was that important.

[Candace Owens]

All right, guys, got Tiffany and Ian here today. I'm sure you've been seeing a lot of them been blowing up on Candace. Congrats, guys, and thanks for coming on again.

[Ian]

Absolutely. Thanks for having us.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Yeah, thanks for having me. You're my favorite.

[Candace Owens]

Exposing a whole new world with this arbitration stuff in secret court.

[Ian]

Yeah, secret world that's been going on for ages. And the only people that really know about it are people that get caught in it. And the moment you get caught in it, you get silenced by it. And so, I mean, Tiffany's a great example of that. But fortunately, she broke her silence. And there are others that have broken their silence. But it's just. It's tragic how much destruction of the justice system has already occurred by the time any alarm bells are kind of being sounded publicly.

[Candace Owens]

Yeah. How do you think they keep everyone so silent? Is it like a clause in the agreement?

[Tiffany Cianci]

There's. There's a couple of ways. Most of the people that end up in arbitration end up there because they sign something unknowingly. And when they sign something unknowingly, it's a big catch. All of clauses. So my favorite is always trampoline park for a birthday party. Right.

[Ian]

You go to any old trampoline parks?

[Tiffany Cianci]

No specific trampoline parks. You can go to the trampoline park for a kid's birthday party. And at least some of them have you sign in on an iPad at the front. When you do, you don't read the 90 pages that are attached to that. And in there is an arbitration agreement, but it's not the only agreement. There might also be a confidentiality agreement, a non disparagement clause, a non disclosure agreement, an agreement to mediate without going to the press. There could be a non class agreement. And so you're not signing one agreement or two agreements or three agreements or a liability waiver. You're signing hundreds of agreements you never even saw. And even if you had seen it, you didn't have a Lawyer. So you didn't know what it meant. And so people are silenced by agreements they never even realize they entered. And then what happens is some of those agreements might not even be enforceable. But when they go to immediately get a lawyer, or they immediately notify the, my kid's injured. My kid fell off your zip line. My kid's life is irrevocably destroyed. And they go, if you say anything to anyone, we're going to sue you.

[Candace Owens]

She's. And most people, Families can't afford that.

[Tiffany Cianci]

They can't. No. No family can afford that. And so their lawyers will immediately say, you, if you want us to be able to settle this, instead of going to this very expensive arbitration process, you have to stay quiet. And their lawyers will say, it's my job to get you the most money I can. And they're never going to let us get into court because of these horrible agreements. So the best I can do for you is the best settlement I can get you. And if you speak, I can't get you that.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Or they've already destroyed you in the arbitration. The arbitrator issued a gag at the beginning of the case, which in my case, I was given a gag order. Right. And they'll issue a gag at the beginning of the case. And by the time you're done, you're bankrupt and you can't afford to risk another lawsuit. Use your bankruptcy only covers the existing lawsuit.

[Candace Owens]

Yeah.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Like, they're desperate for me to lie. They are desperate for me to lie. I'm sure they would give anything for me to lie so that they could sue me again right now.

[Ian]

And it's telling that they. That they can't.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Right.

[Ian]

That says a lot.

[Tiffany Cianci]

And I'll be honest. Like, half of that is probably that I'm telling absolutely the truth, and the other half is that if they sue me, they have to sue me in court this time. And that would give me open discovery on all of their communications.

[Ian]

Oh, yeah, let's go. Let's get that discovery.

[Tiffany Cianci]

If they're gonna say I'm lying, I get to prove that they're not lying, that I am lying. Right. So I get to go get all those communication, be like, I'm not lying. Look, that email did exist. Right.

[Ian]

But you bring up a really important point there, that they would have to sue you an open court. Right. And the. Because most people don't know, and this is what I've been talking about on the Candace show and what you've been sounding the alarm on for a long time now. Is that in arbitration they don't have to follow the law. In arbitration, the arbitrators are explicitly not required to follow the law. And so there's this secret court where you can't talk about it and the judges and lawyers do not have to follow the law. And so you. And theoretically like your lawyers don't have to follow the law either. But it doesn't work that way. Like the repeat clients are the corporations and the, and the private equity guys, the big boys. And so they have these very cozy relationships with those arbitrators which are the judges in these courts. And so they get this incredible treatment and they, they get to get away with libel, lying, all sorts of fraud, all sorts of craziness while you have to kind of play by the rules and just get clobbered while you pay them for the service.

[Tiffany Cianci]

It's almost. I want to give you an example that I've never spoken about on, on any show. In my case. Of what? Okay. In my case they denied me all my witnesses. So it was just me and my lawyer that went. They had a team of lawyers, literally an army of lawyers across a table bigger than this every day, double this size.

[Ian]

And they had no reason to deny you your witnesses. They just.

[Tiffany Cianci]

No reason to deny me my witnesses. They denied me all my witnesses. They got dozens of witnesses approved. I got none. Okay? So it was me and my lawyer. My lawyer had one guy who. He had no resources, he had no backup, he had no paralegals helping. I was the.

[Candace Owens]

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[Tiffany Cianci]

Only one that could prep our case every day. A very complex 11 day long trial. Okay. And when we get to court that day, their lawyer, Norma Leon and Laura Sixkiller go, you, Honor, we'd like to propose invoking the federal rules of communication. We weren't in a federal court. We weren't in a federal case. And he goes, and he didn't. I personally believe Patrick Irvine just didn't want to look stupid. He goes, yeah, remind the court what that is. And they're like, we would like to make sure that as long as she's testifying, she can't talk to her lawyer.

[Candace Owens]

Wow.

[Tiffany Cianci]

And they kept me testifying for days. So every day I couldn't help my lawyer prepare.

[Candace Owens]

You couldn't call for your lawyer?

[Tiffany Cianci]

I couldn't talk to my lawyer during my case.

[Candace Owens]

Holy.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Every night he would have to say, I can't talk to you, Tiffany. And he didn't know what he was preparing. It was a complex case. I was the only one that knew all those documents.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Tiffany Cianci]

And I was not allowed to speak to my lawyer.

[Candace Owens]

That's insane.

[Tiffany Cianci]

For a week.

[Ian]

Ordered by the court.

[Tiffany Cianci]

And my lawyer was actually a guy who followed the rules. And every night he would say, I'm so sorry. I'll see you in the morning, we'll do our best. Every day, he would walk out of that courtroom and say, we're going to do our best. I can't talk to you. He would say it on our lunch breaks. I can't talk to you. You know, obscene. That is. That's not a rule of arbitration. He can make up whatever he wants.

[Ian]

Why is that a rule of court?

[Tiffany Cianci]

It's a rule of court. Like, if you're in a big federal court, you have a bunch of lawyers on both sides, and so you can't coach the witness while they're testifying over multiple days. Okay, but I was also the client. Yeah, that's normally for like. Like somebody's testifying against the mob, and you don't want the lawyer talking to them between days. I was the client, too. That would never be allowed to be invoked when you're the client.

[Ian]

Open court. That would never be allowed.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Never.

[Ian]

Right.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Because my lawyer has to prepare for court. Yeah. But anything they asked for, he was like, yes, sir. Yes, ma' am. Yes, sir. I was like, could I just, like, maybe go take a bathroom break? Nope. Could I just go and check for some evidence? Nope. Could I show you this video? See Michael Browning, their CEO, he answered a question, and they were like, do you. We. We asked him, do you recall at any point in a video that was released saying, we will not tolerate disunity? He says, nope, I don't recall that ever happening. That didn't happen. And I was like, your honor, I have a video of him saying that.

[Ian]

Got it to you.

[Tiffany Cianci]

And I pulled up the laptop, and they're like, we object. And I'm like, he just lied under oath. By law, I'm allowed to impeach his testimony. He just perjured himself. And they were like, what will the video show? Exactly what he just said didn't happen. He's like, I don't think we need to look at that. I swear to God. That was a whole.

[Ian]

Happened multiple times, right?

[Tiffany Cianci]

Multiple times, over and over again.

[Candace Owens]

You couldn't use the video as evidence?

[Ian]

Oh, yeah.

[Tiffany Cianci]

I didn't get to use any of my.

[Ian]

I showed that video on the Candace show in the first step, I guess in that third episode. Yeah, in the episode that aired this just this week. Two days ago.

[Candace Owens]

Geez.

[Ian]

Yep. This is not a video.

[Candace Owens]

I can't believe this.

[Tiffany Cianci]

It was. It was the most insane experience of my life because I am married to a federal attorney. I went to law school with my husband. I sat in classrooms with my husband. Okay. I was pre law. I took the same pre law classes as my husband. We believed in the criminal justice system. My husband did not become a lawyer to be one of the bad guys. My husband became a federal attorney to do good, to make a difference, to protect our country, to do a lot of things he wanted to do. And the hardest thing has been watching the deterioration of my husband's faith in his profession. My husband is not the man I married. My husband is a different person at this point. My husband has no faith in his profession. He doesn't believe in anything that he does. He doesn't believe that the bar is capable of, of, of ethics. He doesn't believe that the bar is capable of honesty. He believes that it's an, a massive corruption scheme and you only get the justice you can afford in America. And for a federal attorney who spent his entire life trying to be in a, he was the first in his family to go to college. So was I. He, he worked so hard to get there, worked so hard to get to law school, worked so hard to get to a tier one school, Worked so hard in a, in a, in a social justice law school. He went to a social justice law school. Yeah, right. And for us to come out and for him to feel the way he feels today, it's broken my heart.

[Ian]

You, you bring up an important point to take, to take a second to expand on. As you say, you can only get the justice you can afford. Because we've talked about a few examples here so far. And one thing that's really important, I think to remind everyone every time, is you're one example of one woman that went through this in one industry with one company that, that went after you. And that was a toddler, Jim. And he owns this like brand, Unleash brands, that owns a bunch of kids franchises and stuff like that. But you're just one example out of millions of Americans that go through this. Because it's not just one industry, it's. You always go through these crazy lists of like a, in your phone, there's like 20 to 30 arbitration agreements. And there's a crazy case about Uber that you can Google. But all your apps come with arbitration agreements. Your phone itself comes with an arbitration agreement. Your house has an arbitration agreement. If you're renting, you have an arbitration agreement. If you're employed, you have an arbitration agreement.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Your vet, right. Your nursing homes, right. Your pediatric emergency rooms, right. All pediatricians offices at this point have added them. Dentists, orthodontists, you see it in, oh my gosh, funeral homes.

[Candace Owens]

Wow.

[Ian]

I Mean, even a lot of products come with arbitration agreements. So you're in this position. Right. Love that you're in this position now where as an American. Yeah. You have constitutional rights normally. Right. And we all expect that the courts will work properly. And so if a peasant kills a peasant, there's a court system that'll sort out the peasant squabbles. But the moment that you get into anything goes wrong, where you're up against a rich person, suddenly you are almost always already bound by an arbitration agreement. And so you suddenly do not have rights. Anytime that you're in a dispute against a corporation, a private equity group or a billionaire, usually through one of those things, you immediately wind up realizing, like, I already do not have rights. And so it's actually that all Americans do not have rights if they're against the oligarch class. You only have rights if you're against each other. Wow. And that is the definition of a two tiered justice system. And it's already in place. It's been in place for years.

[Tiffany Cianci]

It's a facade designed to give all of us the illusion that we have a one tiered justice system, to give us all the illusion that there's justice for all. Because we see people go to jail and we see people that, you know, when once in a while somebody wins a big settlement. Right.

[Ian]

We all watch Judge Judy.

[Tiffany Cianci]

We've all watched Judge Judy. Absolutely. You know, Judge Judy is an arbitration court.

[Ian]

No way.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Did you know Judge Judy, you have to sign your earring. She's. She. You agree to go before her as your alternative dispute resolution.

[Ian]

Yeah. That's why they can make it so fun. Right.

[Tiffany Cianci]

That's what makes it fun. She can do whatever she wants. Right. Judge Judy's an arbitration court. She's not like an arbitration court. She's an alternative dispute. Like she makes it fun. Right. And she has to be fair because she's on tv. She's. She's what they hold out. Look, this is alternative dispute resolution. You have justice.

[Ian]

Yep.

[Tiffany Cianci]

No.

[Ian]

And actually, so when I started doing the research to kind of like build on the story that you were telling me, I started to find a lot of what essentially seems like propaganda about arbitration that is like legal publications sort of describing what the ideal of arbitration is, that it'll be faster, it'll be cheaper, it'll be way easier way to settle a dispute just out of court so you don't have to deal with all the fees, you don't have to deal with all that stuff. And it makes it sound like A very reasonable idea. And that is 100% not the reality. And it really is propaganda. And I don't know if it's necessarily coming down from law school into people's brains and they're just regurgitating it or if there's actually paid programs kind of pushing this stuff out or if it's a mixture or something. But.

[Tiffany Cianci]

So I'll take a little bit of that mantle up. First of all, this entire corruption has been propagated by really one man, which is horrifying to say. And I'm gonna have a hard time saying this because I don't agree with much of what he's done, but I disagree. But I do agree with some. Chief Justice John Roberts has single handedly engineered this system.

[Candace Owens]

Wow.

[Tiffany Cianci]

He has single handedly expanded this. The Federal Arbitration act was very narrow when it was drafted. It is only through his rulings that it has been expanded.

[Ian]

Do you remember when he was put in in place, how long he's been there?

[Tiffany Cianci]

Yeah, he's been there 20. I can look it up maybe like.

[Ian]

So he's been there a long time. Walking the line further and further.

[Candace Owens]

I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm.

[Ian]

Thank you. And further. Right.

[Tiffany Cianci]

He's, he's authored all of the major opinions on arbitration. He's a very pro business.

[Candace Owens]

2005.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Yeah, 20 years.

[Ian]

Yeah, 20 years.

[Tiffany Cianci]

So he's a very pro business jurist, very pro industry jurist, Very pro what he calls free market jurist.

[Ian]

Yeah, free market.

[Tiffany Cianci]

But it's not a free market if you're suddenly locking bad conduct behind secret courtrooms.

[Ian]

Exactly.

[Tiffany Cianci]

And I like to believe. And there's a ton of responsibility on Congress. I am not going to say like, oh, he did it. The Supreme Court can only do what Congress lets them do by failing to address issues in law. They're so happy to just write a law and be like, we did something. Look at this. One thing we've done in the last four years. And then to not actually put in enough nuance to properly legislate. And so you leave the courts to work it out. And that is a huge problem. And it's a bigger problem since Chevron has come down because at least then you had experts that got involved in the regulation of it. Chevron was good and it was bad and there's going to be good outcomes and bad outcomes as a result. But that's a court case that said wherever the legislature failed, the experts and the regulatory agencies could fill in the gaps. So if legislatures didn't understand water contamination, the experts that did understand water contamination would say how that was put into place. And Chevron allowed that. Well, now Chevron's gone. And so there's going to be litigation after litigation tearing down any decision that was made based on Chevron over the last 20 years. And as a result, what I hope comes out of it, I think it's unlikely given the reality of our current legislative situation. But what I hope comes out of it is that it will force necessarily specificity in legislating, because if they don't use it, then, then the courts aren't going to enforce it because Chevron can no longer be relied on. That's how every gap in legislation was filled for the last decades. And so they either have to be specific in the way that they write a law, or the law is not enforceable. It cannot be implemented.

[Candace Owens]

Is Congress looking into this at all? Is there any solutions being proposed?

[Tiffany Cianci]

Oh, there are so many easy solutions to this, it's pathetic. How many easy solutions?

[Ian]

Let's require arbitrators to follow the law.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Just follow the law.

[Ian]

That would be the easiest law ever.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Like, it's amazing. They wrote the whole act and they didn't think and follow the law. They were like, new judges, less discovery, still enforceable in court. No need to follow the law. Like, who was like, this is a great idea. Not right. Right. But this could be the easiest amendment in human history. Like, literally you go in and you're like, hey, Republicans, did you know that liberal arbitrators don't have to follow the law and can force women abortions?

[Ian]

And then you could be like on the show.

[Tiffany Cianci]

And then you can be like, Republican legislators, did you. Or liberal legislators, did you know that Republican arbitrators don't have to follow the law and they can like, deny poor people any access to justice? Did you know that? Did you know that? And all you guys have to do is pass one single sentence amendment to the Federal Arbitration Act. Arbitrators must follow existing laws for the jurisdiction governing the dispute.

[Ian]

Bingo.

[Tiffany Cianci]

I did it for you.

[Ian]

Bingo. Wow.

[Tiffany Cianci]

The gift is yours, guys. Like, that's literally. That's it. That's the whole thing.

[Ian]

And there could be more than that too. That's such a good start. Right? So you always bring up this example of the Massage envy case where 180 women came forward, because there were probably many more than that. But there were 180 women at massage Envy, the nation's largest massage franchise chain. That were by their massage therapist and.

[Tiffany Cianci]

And coworkers.

[Ian]

Yeah, exactly. So all. All sorts of different claims. And they came together and they tried to file a class action, I believe.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Initially tried to file a suit.

[Ian]

They tried to push them into arbitration. And it became this kind of battle over, like, can you push sexual assault charges into secret courts? And eventually they. They changed the law. I don't know the specific courts they did.

[Tiffany Cianci]

The court ruling was forcing them to secret courts and breaking up the class. And that led to three women breaking their silence and their gag orders and going to the press. I read it in USA Today. It was the first one I read. And in USA Today, there was a huge scandal. It was picked up by a lot. And they said, women are being forced into secret courts for being. And when that happened, all the female legislators in the districts where it was happening took a lot of heat. And suddenly, literally, in the matter of, like, two months, a law was passed. HB 4505 or 5404, that was that in instances of sexual assault or harassment, you can no longer force an arbitration agreement to be enforced. It was the easiest thing. It passed unanimously, and it's massive because.

[Ian]

Over 50% of women in the workplace are subject to forced arbitration clauses in their employment contracts. So if you think of, like, what we're 300 million Americans, I'm just making up numbers, but, like, maybe there's 8, 10 million. 8 to 10 million women that are working in the workplace. 5 million women are subject to an arbitration clause. And if someone at their workplace.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Million total Americans that have employment contracts that have arbitration clauses right now.

[Candace Owens]

Holy crap.

[Tiffany Cianci]

You know, maybe three years ago, it's probably higher now.

[Ian]

So maybe 30, 40 million women that have arbitration clauses so that if anyone at their workplace sexually assaults them, their boss, their co worker, whatever, they basically have no recourse because, like, if they speak out, they'll get fired. If they don't speak out and try to go the legal route, they'll get forced into arbitration they can't afford.

[Tiffany Cianci]

They have to pay to go to that arbitration. And no one wants to pick up these cases because he said, let's, let's.

[Ian]

Break down what, what you had to pay for your arbitrator and how that system works because it's. It doesn't even register in regular people's minds what we're talking about here, because you are literally. It's not like you have to pay a filing fee to put it to, like, enter court. It's that you are paying an hourly Wage, plus a bunch of other payments to the judge themself, as well as paying your lawyer the fees that you would need to pay. Right. Can you break us down what you were paying for your arbitrators?

[Tiffany Cianci]

So I had two different arbitrators during my case, and there's other arbitrators I've been before in cases I've testified in. And my arbitration case, I had first to pay a $3,600 filing fee for the count if I wanted to defend my defamation case.

[Ian]

Just to get started.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Just to get started. If I wanted to say they defamed me, they lied about me, I had to pay $3,600 to even start that process, which is not the $150 filing fee in a court. Right. This is $3,600 just to start. Then I had to pay for the process to select the arbitrator. I didn't even get to participate in the selection of the emergency arbitrator they gave us. She was just $500 an hour, and we had to pay that in advance. So I was told we had to advance, like, $5,000 to her.

[Candace Owens]

Wow.

[Tiffany Cianci]

So that was just to get started. Then during this, they filed against me in court, too. So simultaneously, I spent $80,000 in fees in Maricopa County Court, where they lost over and over again. But I spent $80,000 in legal fees during that. While I have this one going on, I also have the court case going on. Simultaneously. They're trying to dismiss this case while I'm spending 80 grand, which they brought. Which they brought that case. And now they want to dismiss it because they're losing, and they want to shop that back to arbitration. They used it for all the discovery they could get. They got a whole bunch of, like. They got tons of evidence they wouldn't have gotten during arbitration. They got tons of, like, depositions they wouldn't have gotten in depth in arbitration. They wouldn't have been guaranteed any of that. So they exploited the court system to get excess discovery. They found out the judge was not having it. Like, there was literally a point. One of the transcripts. Like, you can argue anything you want. I'm not inclined to grant this. Like, this is ridiculous.

[Ian]

And also got to bleed. You have a lot more money that way. Because that is the point. It's. This is not just because they're seeking justice. This is because they're seeking to overwhelm. Overwhelm you and overcharge you and bleed you dry.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Yeah. And then at the same time, they. They Dismissed that case. They came back to arbitration and they're like, we're starting, we're amending this arbitration and we're adding 11 counts against her. And in those 11 counts we need a long term where we're seeking a permanent injunction. We need a new arbitrator. So we went through a new selection process that costs money. Like, and you have to file again now and then during that process you have to have lawyers. And while you're. When you choose your arbitrators, the arbitrators I got were between $1200 and $50 and $300 an hour anywhere in there.

[Candace Owens]

Crazy.

[Tiffany Cianci]

And you get to strike some. They stroke struck all the cheap ones.

[Ian]

So they force you to pay more.

[Tiffany Cianci]

So I that forced me to strike the twelve hundred dollars an hour once. I can never afford it because you don't get to choose your arbitrator ultimately. At least that's what they tell you. They tell you it's an independent process. So I struck the expensive ones because they struck the cheap ones. I'm from Vegas. I know my odds. Right. Then you rank them in order. We knew there was a guy named Colin that everyone in had said was the most fair arbitrator in Arizona. So we ranked him number one. They also ranked him pretty immediate. They ranked him three. We got Colin. We were so excited. We were like, we have a fair arbitrator. This is amazing. They immediately filed an objection and they said, no, no, no, he can't be their arbitrator. Like 25 years ago he was on a case with her lawyer. They weren't together. They weren't in the same practice, but they both worked on a case. So he has to be removed. And so they forced him out.

[Ian]

Wow.

[Tiffany Cianci]

And they object until they get to the arbitrator they want. Then they got Irvine and that's who they wanted.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Tiffany Cianci]

So he was like 450 or 500 an hour. And that was 500 an hour for every bit of case research he had to do, for every phone call he had to take, for every email he had to answer. One hour minimum. So if it was a 10 minute process, we were paying 500. If we wanted to go before him because they were terrorizing me. I had to have enough money for a three hour hearing. So I had to put up enough money for all of us to do that three grand. I didn't have it over and over again. People ask me all the time when they were trying to force you to have the abortion. Tiffany, why didn't you just ask the judge to help. We did. We did ask the judge to help. And there was a process that was open and they allowed that motions practice to close. Whoever initiates emotions practice has to have the money in the account to go before your arbitrators. I wanted to go back before him. It meant I had to initiate it. I didn't have any money in my account.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Tiffany Cianci]

My lawyer was like, we'd have to give money to AAA at the same time that they're literally saying, if you don't tell us by tomorrow you've scheduled an abortion, we're gonna file a sanctions motion against you. Right. Like, that's literally what's happening. I have no money. I can't go to work. I have nowhere to borrow it. I'm in labor. I'm literally losing a kid. Like, everything was coming. And by the way, get up and go, drive to the bank, because if you don't produce some documents by tomorrow, she's going to file a sanctions motion against you for that too. And so I drugged myself bleeding out of bed and went to a bank. So this is all happening, and in the middle of all of it, everything we have to go for the Archer for, we're paying $500 an hour. $500 an hour during the trial. That's $27,400 a week. Jeez. And if you have. Let's say you work something out, you have to cancel the hearing. $500 fine. Canceling the hearing. Yeah, Like.

[Ian]

And you mentioned something important there. You said we'd have to pay aaa. Yeah, Right. And that's something that we need to stop for a second and elaborate on. Because when the audience hears the word judge or arbitrator, they're assuming we're talking about a government institution or a government, you know, system. And you're paying this government justice system for the. Obviously, it's expensive to run a court, right? No. Aaa, the American Arbitration association, is a private company that runs the arbitration industry. And they. There's a lawsuit that was just filed a week or two ago against this system. I forget exactly who the defendant is.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Stephanie, I think.

[Ian]

Yeah, Stephanie. Yeah. I forget her exact name. I brought the lawsuit up in one of my recent CANDACE episodes. And it alleges in that lawsuit that AAA controls 94% of the arbitration industry. And so the entire arbitration industry is a cartel run by a private company called AAA. And of the entire rest of the industry, 6% is controlled by JAMS, which is another private corporation. And then the other point, like, 00003% or something like that, that's a real number, that's not a number of other competitors. And so when she says she has to top off her account with AAA in order to have the privilege of, of going to court to say, I don't want to have an abortion, Triple A is a private company that she has to pay and Triple A is who her arbitrator works for and Triple A is who her arbitrator, who if he wants to make a 10 minute phone call and bill her one more hour to get $500 more, all of that is a private company that works with all of these arbitrators, that works with all of these corporations and all of these private equity guys. It's one giant cartel that just preys on people like Tiffany.

[Tiffany Cianci]

In American history, if any other corporation has ever reached 92% control of any industry, they're broken up immediately.

[Ian]

No.

[Tiffany Cianci]

That is an ass. That is so far past the Sherman antitrust law parameters. That is so much higher than the Sherman antitrust law parameters. But every damn judge in America is using Triple A as their retirement plan. And so none of them are going to do anything about it. That's the problem. None of them are going to do anything about it because right now they're making 130 grand a year while all of their legal cohorts are like Norman leon are billing 1300 an hour. And they're like, when's mine going to come? And they know in retirement it's coming.

[Ian]

This is so important to mention because you're saying they're using it as the retirement plan. And that's not, not to mean they're investing money for a retirement savings account. What they, what she means is that they are planning on, on using the revolving door from the main, the real justice system into the arbitration system once they're done. And so what that means is that when they're in the main justice system, they actually want to act in favor of the big boys so that when they become arbitrators later, they'll already be favorably viewed. Because if they don't get picked as arbitrators by the corporations and the private equity groups, they won't make the money because they'll just get struck. They'll never have the cases, they'll never make all this crazy money. But if, when they're a normal judge, they act very favorably to corporations and private equity, they know that later on they've got a golden parachute waiting for them of really easy work for huge amounts of money.

[Tiffany Cianci]

And like, really like there are Judges that shop around for cases, because if you have specific knowledge of case law, then you're more marketable. So say you got to do a telecom case, now you can build 1200 an hour as an arbitrator. Let's say you did a Maritime Law case. $2,500 an hour, right? Let's say that you did nuanced intellectual property of a dispute between Google and another tech company. 4,000 an hour.

[Candace Owens]

That's insane.

[Ian]

And so you have to think about, when you think about law school and the type of, you know, 18 year olds that are dreaming about law school and going through that career, how many of them are, like Tiffany's husband, that want to change the world and make the world a better place and do right? And how many of them are wanting to go through that extremely grueling school process to make a lot of money, right? And then of the ones that were idealistic and actually wanted to do this really hard thing in order to do the right thing, how many of them survive with that mentality by the end of law school? And just imagine when all these lawyers are graduating and passing the bar and becoming lawyers and judges and all these legal professions, what percentage of these new legal professionals are there for the money versus there to do the right thing? And then by the end of their careers, how many of them have been soured on that and have now just been doing it for the money?

[Tiffany Cianci]

During the first part of our case, one of my husband's law school friends who was a couple years ahead of him, Roz, he came to us and he's like, you guys need to know you're not litigators. Your husband is not a litigator. And I am warning you, he said these words, said, you're going into a system you believe exists. He says, I argue in it every day and you don't have the money to win in this system. And Ryan was like, what are you talking about? I know the law. The law is on our side. And he said, I am telling you, you only get the justice you can afford. You have all of us. We were surrounded by lawyers. We had so many lawyers that would come over and have research nights at our house. It literally looked like the scene in Van Wilder where they're trying to get him out of it, right? Hands a board up and we're hanging a glove. You know what I mean? They were like, we had so many lawyers camped out in our living room that were literally trying to just like, show all the ways that we could do this, to feed it to our one very, like, very long term lawyer who'd been fighting the franchise system and corruption for decades. He's retired now. It was his last case. I broke my lawyer, my case. He believed my case was going to be the case that showed that you could make a difference. He believed it. He took it. He worked so hard for so little money.

[Candace Owens]

Wow.

[Tiffany Cianci]

He gave up everything. He gave up time with his family in his golden years. And he fought so hard and he literally looked at me and he was so hopeful. But he knew as soon as we walked in the arbitration room, he said, you're going to be my last case.

[Ian]

Damn.

[Tiffany Cianci]

And he absolutely meant it.

[Candace Owens]

So he retired.

[Tiffany Cianci]

He retired. He couldn't do it. He literally called me the other day and he's like, I'm so proud of you. Don't you ever give up. He said he was watching Candace. My lawyer could never have watched Candace, by the way. I'm very proud that he watched Candace. He lived. My lawyer worked in San Francisco. He came out and did all this for me, like, for like, almost nothing. Because he was one of those guys that worked. He worked in the ftc. He worked in the ftc. He was a lawyer at the FTC that enforced the Fran. The Franchise Act. And like, my lawyer could never have been a guy that, like, watched Candace Owens. But he did believe that the system could be fixed for small business owners. And my case absolutely, irrevocably broke him. He said it was the most blatant case of retaliation he'd ever seen. It was the most obvious case. It was the most obviously, no. No arbitrator could look away from it. Everyone had to see it.

[Ian]

And he's not the only legal expert that has told you this behind the scenes.

[Tiffany Cianci]

So many, so many lawyers are helping me secretly in the background. So many lawyers from their side have secretly helped me in the background.

[Candace Owens]

Even they know it's messed up.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Even they know it's messed up.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Like, there are lawyers that have called me this week, multiple lawyers that work with the IFA that have called me this week. And they're like, don't stop. Whatever you do, don't stop. Wow, you're so close. Yeah, you're so close. Like, don't stop. Because no one's ever made it this far.

[Ian]

Yeah. And the IFA is the International Franchise Association. And we, we don't have time to get into them, but I do just want to give them a quick shout out that, boys, your time will come. We will get into you later.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Matthew.

[Ian]

We are coming for you too, because they are tied. It's not just this one private equity group that's going after her. It's not just the arbitration industry. It's not just one. It's the. It's this huge network of corruption that has just grown out of this sort of black box. This, like, wall, this curtain.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Super exploitative, like, interlocked. Just filth.

[Ian]

Yeah. Revolving doors in every direction. And a lot of them know how messed up it is. But when you're getting so fat on all these big checks, it's hard not to just keep on looking the other way and keep on making money. At least that's the way I assume that they justify it.

[Tiffany Cianci]

I honestly believe they all know it's going to come to an end and they're going to get as much out of as they can until it does. Because something has to break. Something has to break. And I really hope that we're at that moment. I truly believe it. Almost, bro. 10 years ago, it almost broke with Kahala Brands and Cold Stone. It almost broke with Quiznos now. And then that got silenced with some settlements. And then it almost broke with Kahala Brands. CB I think it was CBS in 60 Minutes. We're doing this huge investigative report into Kahala Brands, which CEO was Governor Doug Ducey of Arizona. Where all of these cases taking place? Texas and Arizona. Where is the class action against Triple A taking place right now? Arizona. Where did all of the Quiznos law take place? Massage Envy's Law took place? Arizona. Arizona and Texas are cesspools for this. But right now they were doing this huge investigative report at CBS on Kahala Brands being extremely litigious against their franchisees and their association and being retaliatory. And the day before it was set to air, the day before it was set to air, it was struck by the network and then suddenly there were Kahala brand ads all over CBS and it disappeared.

[Ian]

Weird.

[Candace Owens]

Poof.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Gone. Now, I'm sure that's totally unrelated. Just a coincidence, obviously.

[Ian]

Just a coincidence.

[Tiffany Cianci]

But these franchisees had put themselves so far out there on this huge investigative report that almost made the nightly news because it's a very convoluted thing. You need an hour, two hours to even scratch the surface.

[Ian]

Jeez, I've needed three to just get started.

[Tiffany Cianci]

We've needed three episodes to start and we could do eight more today. Right? And like, so you need a lot. And that's not built for nightly news anymore. It's three minute segments just like this. So if you can get to 60 minutes, you can get an investigative report that actually cares. You know, if we could bring back the David Horowitz's of the world, the fight backs of the world. Right. If you could do that and you can get to those places, then you've got it. You've got to put all your eggs in that basket. Because the only chance you have or had now with the alternative media that we have here, we don't have to do that anymore. We're working around it. We're not going with that anymore because they don't care. Their advertising dollars depend on this. Right. But back then, they got so close. They were. It was one day away and everything blew up.

[Ian]

It's just one more example of how this sort of decentralized media, this open media space, is changing the world every day. Because you can only hide this kind of corruption for so long before what was hidden in the secret courts of arbitration will eventually make its way to the court of public opinion. And you know, you can get away with a whole lot of garbage in a secret court where there are no rules. But once you bring that paper trail out into the light and you show it to Urban Air's customers, you show it to the franchise associations, you know, constituents, when you show what they've been doing, the rats start to jump ship, the customers stop coming. Everyone has questions and everyone demands answers. Because like in Tiffany's case, she's up against this company that is specifically targeting businesses that target children. And kids are getting hurt, nearly killed at Urban Air. And it's getting covered up in secret court. And you know, you can get away with that in secret court. You cannot get away with that in the public square. And the moment that someone starts talking about it, which Tiffany, fortunately, bravely survived this entire crazy case, kept all these crazy receipts, and then has been here sounding the alarm on the Internet for so long, it's like that, that system is bound to. Bound to implode. And I think it's imploding now.

[Tiffany Cianci]

I hope so.

[Ian]

Yeah. Based on all the chatter behind the scenes, all the things that people like, lawyers, people that are in other disputes with Urban Air and with Unleashed Brands, all this chatter behind the scenes that they're saying about what people are doing, the reactions that are happening, I suspect.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Even reactions from judges and other lawyers.

[Ian]

Really? Yeah.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Yeah.

[Ian]

Well, I mean, there is more than enough evidence here to criminally Investigate Michael Browning Jr. We were there.

[Tiffany Cianci]

That's what kills me. The FTC had opened their investigation with the DOJ into Unleashed Brands. I received a request for documents, something Called like a cid?

[Candace Owens]

Yeah.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Where you have to. It's like a subpoena from the government. I received a request for documents. I uploaded like, 14,000 documents to the FTC. All of this, they had opened the investigation. They had called in tons of franchisees. Everybody came to D.C. we went to meetings with all their lawyers. We were in it. It was happening. And then the election happened and it just stopped. Now it doesn't. The thing about the FTC is that once an investigation is opened, that investigation is nonpartisan and it carries forward. What we need right now is somebody in the FTC to simply go downstairs and turn the light back on, please. I just break the fourth wall for a minute, please. We need alvarobadoya to get back into his job and get to work. We need Rebecca Slaughter getting back to work. We need the people that are there to care more about these kids and these small businesses than they do about the donors. And let me tell you, Michael Browning's not a big donor. No, you don't care. He doesn't donate enough for you guys to care. I know. We'd see way more photos with Ted Cruz. Okay? He's only ever posted one from outside his office. He's not a big donor. I promise you. So, please, come on, guys.

[Candace Owens]

Did Dogecott FTC or what's going on?

[Tiffany Cianci]

So, no, the FTC's actually. There's a lot of people inside that really like some of the work the EFTC is doing. JD Vance was a big fan of Lina Khan. I actually think that Trump's biggest mistake since taking office, like, the biggest mistake he's made was cutting Lina Khan. I believe he's going to come to regret it because she was doing the work he started in his first term and doing it very successfully. I believe that that was the best decision Biden made, and I believe getting rid of her was the worst decision that Trump has made. And it's not like that's a unique thing for someone to say. Josh Hawley liked Lina Khan. JD Vance was a big fan of Lena Khan. He said it on the record when he.

[Ian]

After he was nominated, before he won.

[Tiffany Cianci]

He said it before he won, but after he was nominated as the vp.

[Ian]

I just wonder if that's not coming down from some of his donors or special interest groups that got him there.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Can I go conspiracy for a minute with Ian here for a second, please?

[Candace Owens]

You have to with Ian.

[Tiffany Cianci]

I believe that Matt Gaetz's support for Lina Khan was the reason that all of the leaks came out, to force him out of Ag. He said he was excited to start working with Lena to take down all of these monopolies.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Matt Gaetz loved Lina Khan and Matt Gaetz, I believe.

[Ian]

And he would have done stuff about it.

[Tiffany Cianci]

He was going to push to keep her. And we knew Kamala was going to get rid of Lena Khan. I had meetings with a bunch of, like, Liberal journalists on TikTok and they were like, what would it take? Because, like, first of all, I don't endorse. And they're like, what would it take? Cause, like, if she came out tomorrow and said, I'll keep Lina Khan, that would probably be enough to sway my vote. I'm not kidding. I thought Lina Khan was that important. I said, whoever says they'll save Lena, they get me. Kennedy said he liked Lena. I was like, kennedy can have me. Right. But I truly believe. We knew she was not going to keep her. We knew that because her largest donor made a condition of his donation getting rid of Lina Khan because they were investigating his companies.

[Candace Owens]

Wow.

[Tiffany Cianci]

For breaking them up. No. So we knew she was going to get rid of him. I wasn't positive on Trump because he was surrounded by people that actually supported this liberal appointed chairwoman. It would have been a really good reach for his populist supporters. And then.

[Ian]

And it still would be.

[Tiffany Cianci]

He fired Alvaro Bedoya and Rebecca Slaughter, which is something you're not legally supposed to be able to do. And they're suing to get their jobs back. I actually think they'll win. I just want them there faster so we can get going again. But without them there, the guys that are still there could still walk downstairs and restart this and we can keep it going. And I hope all of our supporters are writing to the FTC every single day. They're on Twitter and they actually pay attention to it. The way that the FTC found me, I tagged them on my Twitter and that's how I got my first message from Alvaro Obadoya. Not from his team, from him. He's like, I'm going to set up a meeting with you.

[Ian]

I was like, let's go. Seriously.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Like, I tagged him one time. He's like, let's talk, ma' am.

[Ian]

I was like, I mean, I can only imagine his Twitter inbox is not super full.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Thank you, Commissioner Bedoya. Like, the second highest ranking member of the Federal Trade Commission for watching my Twitter messages to you. Like, it was literally, I tagged him in a tweet saying, we need you. He's like, we want to help you. Okay, great. So, like, it is not like we. They do pay attention to their Twitter folks. Get on X. I didn't realize that.

[Ian]

We should be tagging them in all my videos, too. Yeah.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Let's get this DOJ investigation going. Let's absolutely get back in there.

[Candace Owens]

I wonder what. Because Trump runs some big businesses. I wonder what he thinks of all this arbitration stuff.

[Tiffany Cianci]

I'm sure he realized it.

[Ian]

I'm sure he uses it.

[Tiffany Cianci]

I'm sure he uses it because it's the standard. And if you don't, you. I mean, first of all, let's just be real. Like, if they can find a way to drag him into court. They do. Like, that's. That's the reality of Trump. I don't have to be on his side to know that lawfare is real in his world.

[Candace Owens]

Yeah.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Like, there's been a lot of lawfare where even my husband, who was like. Like, even our most. Our most liberal legal friends were like that.

[Ian]

I mean, that's awkward for us.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Like, we probably could have found something real to bring to court, and instead we did that. Like, I mean, so, like, if they can find a way, arbitration is probably a better place to keep it out of the press. Right. So I'm sure they use it. I don't like it. I don't think they should use it. I don't endorse any company using it. But they all do. They all do. And I think it's wrong. And it would be easily fixed. Right. Like, follow the law, appellate review process when they don't.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Tiffany Cianci]

It's not hard. It's not hard. The easy thing. And I don't think I told you this, but I have a new document to send the FTC. Last night, I got sent an email. $130,000 of payments by Unleashed Brands for Chinese laborers to build their parks.

[Ian]

Let's go.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Allegedly for educational purposes only.

[Ian]

Whoa. Yeah, we had email chains showing that. So we. The first episode, I guess the second episode I did was all about how this trampoline park company, he transformed his trampoline parks into these, like, urban air adventure parks by stealing all this ip. I mean, we have. We have documented evidence of some theft of ip, and.

[Tiffany Cianci]

And we have allegations of a bunch more now.

[Ian]

Allegations of a bunch more that he. Basically, a lot of what's in an urban air trampoline park is actually stolen IP that then once he had the ip, like, once he stole, like, stole these companies and ideas, then he started cutting the number of people that would staff them. And so you'd have, like, one 15 year old staffing this complex ride and then having Chinese labor flown in. We have emails showing that Chinese labor was being flown in to install them, which is like very complex thing to install. And you have to install it properly, otherwise it's not safe. And so all these kind of like serious red flags. So it sounds like you have evidence of payments now.

[Tiffany Cianci]

I have an email that was forwarded to me last night from a very reputable source that I have already forward along to everyone that needs it to keep me safe already make sure that the info is safe. I don't know if I can keep me safe, but I can keep the info safe. I've already forwarded it to like 10 people this morning. That is, I think it's $129,000 in payments for Chinese laborers. They were flying in to build their parks. Now why wouldn't you just pay Americans?

[Ian]

It's a lot cheaper than I remember.

[Tiffany Cianci]

It's because early in my TikTok, I also had a memorandum of understanding I posted that said if you didn't want to pay American workers, you could just go to Home Depot and find your own Mexican. They wrote that in a memorandum of understanding. I'll give you a copy because you're gonna need to back that up. If you post this and it's a memorandum of understanding and it says if you don't want to pay our company and you don't want to hire labor ready, then you can just go to Home Depot and find a Mexican.

[Ian]

Nice.

[Tiffany Cianci]

And then it's signed Michael Browning Jr. No way. I swear to God. He signed this document like Nepo, baby. Michael was like, this is an excellent document to put my name on. What?

[Ian]

And that tracks.

[Tiffany Cianci]

He already had a corporate lawyer, like, who was like, yes, this is a good idea.

[Ian]

Yeah, that tracks, Steven.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Good job.

[Candace Owens]

We got to get Michael on Candace to talk about his side of things.

[Ian]

Oh, yeah, Michael Browning Jr. I would talk to you.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Come on.

[Ian]

I have questions, bro.

[Candace Owens]

He said single thing since all this.

[Tiffany Cianci]

He'S turned off all his comments.

[Ian]

Well, no, he. He turns the comments on just briefly enough apparently for a couple of really nice comments to slip through.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Like, literally. No, I'm not. I'm talking five minutes. Because we watched it where there were. I have a bunch of screenshots of horrible comments on his. His Instagram and they're deleting them, but it's like there are 6 comments on this post and there's zero showing below. So they're hiding them really quick because, like on Instagram, you hide your comments and then all the comments will be turned off. And then for five minutes they would be turned on and one bad one would slip through and three more, like three glowing ones from the same guy one minute apart will slip through. He's like, you're an inspiration to us all. And then it's turned off again.

[Ian]

I love going to your parks. It's amazing.

[Tiffany Cianci]

It's a lot like reading their glassdoor ratings. Go to their glassdoor ratings and you can see, like, all of the real ones from all their franchisees. And then they're like, I loved my CEO. His vision casting was so inspiring. You loved his vision casting, did you?

[Ian]

Wow. Meanwhile, like, the videos you post, like all the Candace videos posted about it, they have all kinds of reports in the comments from people that used to work there, people that used to manage at those parks. They're like, I would never send my kids there. I worked there for like three months and I had to stop because it was so dangerous and so unsafe and I was being put into such horrible situations.

[Tiffany Cianci]

We had a mom that said she had her two. Her kids worked there and she's like, I had to bring them out because they were being traumatized by the severe graphic injuries they were witnessing every week. Geez. That they were witnessing children with like, multiple compound fractures and their bones sticking out of their bodies. And she's like, my children were traumatized. My daughter would cry going into work, but she was afraid of what was gonna happen to the kids and I made them quit their summer job. That's insane. Like, stuff like that. Like, we're getting stuff like that daily right now.

[Candace Owens]

Yeah, I'm sure you're getting the craziest messages right now.

[Ian]

Yeah, yeah. Because you. The. And the common pushback around trampoline parks here is like, yeah, it's like, yeah, you know that it's a dangerous place. Like, it's. It's understandable that sometimes kids would get hurt in a trampoline park. And that is true. And that's true. Yeah. You are taking on a certain responsibility for risk when you take your kids to a trampoline park. But these are not just. It's not like they're just jumping on trampolines and getting hurt on trampolines because the kid doesn't have good balance. They're getting onto rides that are like theme park style rides with like harnesses that need to work properly, that need to be put on properly.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Urban air theme parks.

[Ian]

Bingo.

[Tiffany Cianci]

U a t P. This is not a standard trampoline park. Urban air theme parks and when they're.

[Ian]

Not staffed properly, when the machine, when the equipment is not used properly, then you have like people falling out of harnesses, falling off of rides like 30ft onto concrete with their heads, things like that. So it's like a whole different ball game.

[Tiffany Cianci]

There was a girl, and we've talked a lot about zip lines, but they also have these giant rock walls that are like 24ft tall.

[Ian]

Oh, this one is so traumatizing.

[Tiffany Cianci]

There's a girl in Sugarland, Texas. Sugarland, Texas?

[Ian]

I think so.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Young girl in Sugarland, Texas is like somewhere between 11 and 14. I think she was 13 when it happened. And they put her in a harness and there's a, there's a thing where you jump down at the end and you're supposed to clip it so it slows your fall. And they have a, like a teenager working there, right. And she gets put in and she climbs all the way to the top. Made no mistakes. Would have been better if she'd made a mistake and they're like jump down and they had never attached her harness and she crashes 24ft to the ground and breaks like every bone in her lower body. It just compounds.

[Ian]

Yeah. As a former rock climbing instructor, that.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Ankles, legs, kills me, everything. This girl just crashed to the floor. There is a duty of care. There's a standard of care. There should be two people. I check it, you check it. We talk to each other, here's two thumb signals and we say go, go.

[Ian]

There's a whole sequence for rock climbing.

[Tiffany Cianci]

But what 14 year old should ever be trusted with that, that duty, that. First of all, what about these poor 15 year olds that were never qualified to do this? What happens to them when they realize these kids are permanently maimed because they made a mistake? Because they were trained for six hours and told to get out there at the one by our house, kid is in a spinner and they have this weird like bumper car situation where there's some that you just drive and you run into each other and they have a big round bottom and you just slam into each other. And some of them, you are in a harness and you spin around in them while you're driving into each other. That doesn't sound scary at all.

[Ian]

I mean it sounds awesome if it works.

[Tiffany Cianci]

The kid that was way too small for this ride was put in. He didn't have the right wristband. He didn't. He was way too small for the ride. And he gets put in and he's upside down and falls out because he was way too Small. He didn't have the wristband to be on that ride. And the mom jumps over, hits the emergency stop. The kid screams at her, what are you doing? The kid's standing there right as these.

[Ian]

Cars are all running, as these cars.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Are all running into each other. His legs could have been crushed. And mom screams, what are you doing? What are you doing? And he says, I work in this snack bar. I didn't know. You know why I know that story. That was my son.

[Candace Owens]

No way.

[Tiffany Cianci]

That was my son. First time we went, I just went to visit my neighbors. They were new in our. In our franchise community. I was like, hey, new owners. What's up? They're like, stay and play. My kid had an under 42 inches badge. No deluxe rides. They let him on that ride. And they literally looked at me and said, I just work in the snack bar. It's my first day. They just told me to come cover this guy.

[Ian]

Didn't the harness on the zip line fail on you on that same day?

[Candace Owens]

It did with this multiple occasions.

[Tiffany Cianci]

I mean, like, I literally. I thought I was being a good person in my family of franchises. I didn't sue them.

[Ian]

And this was before.

[Tiffany Cianci]

This is before any of this happened. I went to the owners. I was like, just, you know, I fell on the zip line. Like, I slipped out of my harness. And, like, I was up there screaming for minutes. She's minutes. And I finally grabbed my keys. There were a bunch of witnesses. There's, like, videos that I, like, pulled my keys out of my pocket and threw it and hit somebody. And they saw me. They came up through this search and rescue, like, weird tunnel, and they, like, use, like, this thing to get me and pull me over. And then my daughter, who at the time was probably maybe eight or nine. Eight maybe, because it was before all this, and she's 12 now, guessing it was like eight. They. They looked at her, and she was right ahead of me. And they're like, you have to go back. And she's like, I'm going down there. Like, you have to go back, and you have to take your mom's harness. And I was saying no. And they're like, she has to. And they literally, like, shoved her out. And my daughter had to go back after. She watched me dangle for minutes on minutes on minutes while she was trying to scream for help for me, while she was just dangling at the edge because she had turned around and saw me. And so she didn't have the momentum to keep going. And they had her haul back my harness with her.

[Candace Owens]

This is crazy.

[Ian]

Quick, go do a search and rescue operation for us. Go fix our equipment.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Right. Like this was literally like before any of this happened. I never talked about it because who the hell would believe me that that happened to me and all of this, Right? I never talk about that. You're like one of the only people that actually knows.

[Ian]

I would. Pres. I know. I knew what you were saying the whole time you were telling that story. I was wondering if you're gonna say who it was because, like, you know, I would presume that you have a story like that because it must happen relatively frequently.

[Tiffany Cianci]

I mean, what, I mean, the odds are I was just very happenstance, the only one that had ever happened to in that park and also the only one they stood repeatedly and it definitely never, ever happened again in that park. I was the lone issue and that was the only 14 year old that ever manned that ride. And. And they definitely started training people better after that.

[Candace Owens]

Yeah, yeah. Parents got to know this stuff because they're taking their kids to go on these roller coasters and all these.

[Ian]

Exactly.

[Candace Owens]

Dangerous rides. And there's no accountability if something. Something happens, right?

[Ian]

Yeah. Zero accountability. And again, just to remind us all it's like this, we're talking about a theme park. We're talking about one business model or one franchise, but the model of covering up negligence, covering up assault, covering up any kind of harm to customers using arbitration clauses and all of these complex legal frameworks baked into these agreements that is universal, basically.

[Tiffany Cianci]

I'm going to go a step further because he just talked about how arbitration is used to cover up all of this malfeasance. I'm going to go a step further because the arbitrators that are writing these decisions never want them to come out. They're lazy. They want their 27 grand, their 55 grand, their 150 grand, and they want to get out. My arbitrator wrote a 12 page decision that should have taken in any courtroom easily 100 pages if it had had legal reasoning. There was no legal reasoning done in my arguments. None. He didn't do a single legal analysis in my 12 page decision on 12 counts. That double spaced. That was literally like nine lines.

[Ian]

One double spaced page per count, really?

[Tiffany Cianci]

And like literally an hour for that. No arbitrator will ever want any of these decisions to be publicly made possible. And I need everybody to understand, yes, we have arbitration and these guys all covering for one another simultaneously. We have a judicial system that is covering for one another. We have a judicial system that is a vested interest in keeping us covered up and the illusion of legal justice going. Because if you don't have it, you're not going to keep paying lawyers to go to those arbitrations for you. They want you to believe you've got a shot because those lawyers are benefiting, too. Okay? And so we have this problem where we have lawyers that regulate lawyers. Another really important law we need to pass in every jurisdiction in America is appointing everyday citizens to oversee the state bars. Because I'm going to use my example because I have so many good ones in my case, they committed so many egregious acts of unethical conduct. So many. From stealing employee files, to hiring investigators after they told me to leave up trademarks, to hiring private investigators to terrorize autistic employees. That worked for me. To hiring felons to forge documents, to filing motions to force me to have an abortion. And we filed a state bar complaint. And you would think because it is illegal, it is a felony and a criminal act to coerce an abortion in the state of Arizona, that that would be unethical, that a lawyer might get in trouble for breaking the law. It is illegal. It's one of the only states in America where it is illegal to coerce an abortion. And they did it plainly in writing. That's not like I have to make a stretch here. It happened.

[Ian]

We have the emails.

[Tiffany Cianci]

We have the emails. And so I filed a bar complaint. My husband's like, we have to file a bar complaint. 400 page bar complaint. I'm sending you a copy. It's huge. It's massive. All these exhibits. They paid.

[Ian]

But you prepared yourself, right?

[Tiffany Cianci]

I prepared it. Norman Leon said in court, he's like, who'd you pay $50,000 for your bar complaint if you're broke? I was like, damn, Norman, I'm better than I thought. And I want to be clear. They paid, like, 150 grand to defend it. So I feel pretty good about that. Boom. But, like, literally, they thought I'd paid 50 grand to have this drafted. I worked on it endlessly for four months after I lost my child. It's all I worked on. It's all I poured my energy, my heart and my soul into. All I could do to focus my energy and not lose it, to get through that. And I got an investigator that was a good guy, and he was like, this is the most horrifying thing I've ever read. Normally, the triage process to get your claim accepted is. They say, this has merit. This doesn't have merit. You go through weeks of review. At the Arizona State Bar, I was accepted in eight minutes. Eight minutes of reading the first. They read the first two pages. They were like, click. They called me. They asked me four questions. They asked me if these exhibits were real. They asked me to attest to them. I said yes. They were like, we're moving you forward. Then I got escalated to a senior investigator. He calls me like, this is horrible. This is terrible. I've never seen anything this bad. We're. This is going to end up in a case because once you move past there, you go to a court of judges that oversee other lawyers, and this is where it becomes a public situation. That's up till then, it's private. They hide. They hide the complaints for the lawyers. Those should be public. Every state in America should. Such that. That should be public. If there's a complaint against an attorney, every future client should be able to see it. Every one of them. And every future opponent should be able to use it. Okay? But they hide it until you get to the point where you're going to a court. And I was at that point where we were about to be referred, and suddenly my investigator disappeared. Stop calling me back. Stopped calling me. Stop referring. He'd asked me for all these videos, the videos you've been showing of my deposition. He said he needed those. He said he needed to show I was deposed in labor and that she was terrorizing me about my lost kid. I was. I was sending them. He was supposed to send me this upload link and he disappeared.

[Candace Owens]

The heck.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Then all of a sudden, I can't get an answer from anyone. So I fly to Arizona and walk into the state bar. I asked for a woman named Maria because I know that's his assistant. They send someone out to me and they're like, he has a new job. I'm sorry. I was like, why don't I have a new investigator? They're like, you will. Suddenly I find out I'm with the lead investigator for the State Bar of Arizona. He's the senior most guy. I'm like, okay, cool. And he writes an opinion saying since the lawyers have never been penalized for their unethical conduct, we don't think that we should give them their first penalty. That was the reasoning used. Can you imagine? This guy never murdered anyone before. So we're definitely not going to send him to jail for murdering someone now.

[Ian]

But he said, we won't even investigate.

[Tiffany Cianci]

So he says. He says, we're not going to go through it. He didn't Want any of the videos. He didn't. He didn't even take time review him. I sent all the evidence and that day he issued the opinion. And it was. It was hundreds of hours of videos. Right. We find out that my judge in my case, my arbitrator in my case had been appointed the chair of the Arizona State Bars Character and Fitness Committee of Review to decide who got infracted and what lawyers were following their ethics. My judge got assigned, my investigator disappeared. Totally unrelated.

[Ian]

Your judge that oversaw the abortion procedure?

[Tiffany Cianci]

My judge from my arbitration that was overseeing the same.

[Ian]

That was getting paid to allow them to coerce you to have an abortion. Yes.

[Tiffany Cianci]

He was now the chair that decided who did unethical things for the whole state bar. Everybody. It is the most corrupt system in America. Lawyers protect lawyers and because they only oversee each other, they protect a system that keeps them making tons of money. And if you're only a judge, you're. You have to keep them happy because you need to make money when you retire or it was all for nothing. It is so hard to keep anyone in the state near. So we need laws that one make arbitrators follow law. We need laws that require a review process when they don't. These are simple laws. These are not complex. This is one sentence amendment to the Federal Arbitration Act. And we need the antitrust laws to be used to break up a 94% monopoly in our country that is abusing small businesses and Americans and everywhere in America. I recommend everyone that's in a. A state that has the option to pass laws without your legislature. We love these states, right? They're like states like Nevada, for instance. Any of a big Nevada audience. Nevada, Nevada. Guys, we're looking at you. These are states where you can go and you can just gather 10,000 signatures and put it on the ballot and you guys can decide. You guys could create a review panel for your state bar. You could also demand that your arbitrators in this state follow the law if they're arguing under Nevada law, you guys can do that without the federal government if you want to do it.

[Ian]

What we really need is for that to happen in Arizona because they purposely do all this in Arizona because Arizona is. Is the hotbed of these corruptions. But if one state passes it, suddenly you have precedent. Suddenly you have a conversation going and that changes everything. But if you're ever signing a contract, it's worth looking to see if it's governed in the state of Arizona or Texas. Bedford, Texas, Arizona or Bedford, Texas. Because if it is you might be working with a predatory evil corporation or private equity group that is specifically preparing you for this exact outcome if anything goes wrong.

[Candace Owens]

That's good to know.

[Tiffany Cianci]

And I'm going to say it's not a lot of. A lot of people that like to watch your content. Mine are not going to like this. It is not exclusive to private equity firms. I would like to point out that a couple people recently, Don Lemon, I think, cited the new terms of service at X for why he was leaving the app. And he said they just put through a new arbitration agreement. And guess where Elon based it?

[Ian]

Bedford, Texas.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Bedford, Texas?

[Candace Owens]

No way.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Swear to God.

[Ian]

Yep.

[Tiffany Cianci]

This is. This is a. This is a feature. This is not a bug. This is a cottage industry that is built to protect the powerful and it is built to deny justice to the everyday Americans that give the power to those people that they extort and exploit for the power they have. And we need to fix it. And it's not hard to fix. This is a one sentence law. One sentence.

[Candace Owens]

Let's get it done, guys. Where could people follow your story? You guys got more episodes coming out?

[Ian]

You go first.

[Tiffany Cianci]

So you guys can find me on TikTok and YouTube at Tiffany Cianci and on X and Instagram. T at the vino mom. And you can see me a lot with Ian right now on the Candace Carol show. I almost said Candace.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Tiffany Cianci]

Ian Carol on Candace Owens.

[Ian]

Yeah. I'm currently hosting the Candace Owens podcast while she is on maternity leave raising baby Roman. So Candace on YouTube. I have a YouTube channel I'd love for people to follow. That is Ian Carol show on YouTube. I'm also Ian Carol show on X and Tik Tok and Instagram and I have a website that is cancel ian carol.com com boom.

[Candace Owens]

Check them out, guys. Thanks for watching. Peace.