How Normal People Become Extremists... | Jeff Schoep | DSH #1950

Summary

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Digital Social Hour – Episode #1950: “How Normal People Become Extremists...”

Guest: Jeff Schoep
Host: Sean Kelly
Date: May 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this powerful and unfiltered episode, host Sean Kelly speaks with Jeff Schoep, former leader of America’s largest neo-Nazi group, about the psychology of extremism, cult dynamics, leaving hate behind, and his journey toward peace-building. With insights from his new memoir American Nazi: From Hate to Humanity, Schoep provides a rare look at how “normal” individuals become radicalized, the challenges of leaving extremist ideologies, and the lessons he now shares globally to prevent radicalization and support those seeking a way out.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Cult Dynamics of Extremist Groups

• Extremism as Cult Behavior:
  • Schoep explains he did not perceive his group as a cult during his years of involvement, but “Looking at it from the outside, looking in … it was definitely a cult” (03:54).
  • The psychological mechanisms that hold people in place—across neo-Nazi groups, ISIS, Antifa, religious cults—are strikingly similar.

“The way they hold people in place, the psychology of it is almost identical across the boards between all the groups.” – Jeff Schoep (04:39)

2. Pathways Into Extremism

• Noble Intentions Gone Wrong:

  • Many join not out of inherent malice, but from a desire to do good for their community or country.
  • “Most of the people that are involved in this stuff, they believe that they're doing something good and noble. And I was definitely of that mindset. So I was an ideologue to that cause and, and I fully believed in it.” – Jeff Schoep (07:35)

• Reciprocal Radicalization:

  • The extremes amplify each other—growing extremism on one side fuels the other (right and left, religious, political).

“There's something called reciprocal radicalization … the two extremes fuel each other.” – Jeff Schoep (08:43)

• Modern Recruitment:
  • The rise of social media makes extremist content more accessible. Now, children can be targeted in online games (“… we specifically [found] them targeting kids in these things”—Roblox as an example, 11:13).
  • “Nowadays … you could be 10 years old and click a couple buttons online and find these groups.” – Jeff Schoep (10:50)

3. Breaking Free: Challenges and Support

• Internal Traps and Stigma:

  • As a long-time leader, leaving meant facing shame, fear, and viewing oneself as irredeemably entangled: “I didn't think … that was possible. … when I realized I couldn't fix it, then it was time to disengage and leave that lifestyle” (06:18).

• Paranoia and Infiltration:

  • Informants and paranoia were rampant: “It's staggering how many [informants] there were” (24:48), impacting trust and contributing to insularity.

• Complex Decision to Leave:

  • Support came not from existing networks, but from those who had already left or wanted out:
    • “Hundreds … reached out to leave, that wanted to change their life. … a lot of them were just curious.” – Jeff Schoep (16:40)

• Identity Crisis and Civilian Life:

  • Leaving brought its own trauma and challenges:
    • “It was like living in a war zone. … I need to learn how to operate in the real world.” – Jeff Schoep (32:57, 34:00)

4. The Ripple Effects of Extremism

• Family & Social Consequences:

  • Involvement destroys relationships, careers, and family futures.
  • “It destroyed it, wrecked my mom’s career, uprooted so many different things, you know, and caused issues for my children … It is like a ripple effect.” – Jeff Schoep (42:16)

• Isolation as Entrapment:

  • Leaving is hard because “your families shut the door on you. … now you’re, like, standing out on this diving board or alone, and it’s easier to stay involved” (56:45–59:54).

• Sacrifices for the Cause:

  • For many, the ideology eclipses personal needs:
    • “When you’re wrapped up in this stuff, it becomes your whole world.” – Jeff Schoep (56:55)

5. Discrediting Stereotypes

• Who Joins Extremist Groups?

  • Not just the broken or uneducated:
    • “You also have people that are of high intelligence … doctors and all kinds of things … anybody could be susceptible to it.” – Jeff Schoep (46:38–48:49)

• Critical Thinking as a Shield:

  • Emphasizes the need for critical thinking and evaluating information to avoid sliding “into these dark places” (48:49).

6. The Psychology of Hate & Radical Acts

• Not Driven By Hate:
  • “Hate is a byproduct. Hate is not the driver … These people believe that they’re part of some kind of … a greater cause.” – Jeff Schoep (50:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Attempts to Reform the Group:

  “I was trying to fix what I had, the wrong path that I had taken for so long because it took a while to realize that. … That’s putting lipstick on a pig … It’s still a pig. It doesn’t matter if it has lipstick.” – Jeff Schoep (06:18)

• On Modern Extremist Recruitment:

  “They are in some cases. And it’s really scary because the parents definitely have to be aware of what your kids are looking at online.” – Jeff Schoep (11:13)

• On the Cycle of Radicalization:

  “Both sides ... are pulling us out to these extremes … Some of the pathways into extremism for a lot of people is that reciprocal radicalization.” – Jeff Schoep (08:39–09:47)

• Reflecting on Paranoia:

  “In the movement, one of the things is paranoia is really high and a lot of it's legit... everybody that's involved in it at one point or another gets accused of being an informant or a rat or something like that.” – Jeff Schoep (29:51)

• On Surviving Violence:

  “I survived assassination attempts, yeah. I got a stop across the back of my head from one of them.” – Jeff Schoep (36:22)

• On a Purposeful Future:

  “I feel like there’s a reason that I’m still here today. … To do good things with lessons that I’ve learned … to help other people not make that same path.” – Jeff Schoep (37:08)

• Encouragement for Change:

  “If somebody like me can do it, then you can do it too. If someone can go from that kind of darkness … and change their life around, you can too.” – Jeff Schoep (68:33–69:46)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Quote | |----------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:54 | Realization of group as a cult | | 04:39 | Similar psychology across extremist groups | | 06:18 | Realizing he had to leave; “lipstick on a pig” metaphor | | 07:35 | Ideological motives of members | | 08:43 | Reciprocal radicalization explained | | 10:50–11:30| Modern recruitment and targeting children online | | 16:40 | Former members reaching out for support | | 24:48 | Staggering prevalence of informants/paranoia | | 32:57 | Living like in a warzone; trauma and transition | | 42:16 | The ripple effect of involvement on family and relationships | | 46:38–48:49| Discrediting stereotypes about who becomes radicalized | | 50:39 | “Hate is a byproduct, not the driver” | | 56:45–59:54| Family vs ideology; personal stories of loss and estrangement | | 62:43 | Post-exit conversations with informants; thoughts on snitching | | 66:15 | Early support from the Simon Wiesenthal center; embracing peace-building | | 68:33–69:46| Closing encouragement and the message of hope |

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Current Work and Mission

• Speaking Globally:
  • “All over the world, you wouldn't believe some of the commonalities … so it’s definitely a global issue.” – Jeff Schoep (46:01)
• Beyond Barriers:
  • Schoep’s nonprofit helps people disengage from extremist and hate groups.
• Preventing Radicalization:
  • Works with schools and youth, emphasizing ripple effects and the importance of critical thinking.
• Advocating Humanity:
  • The key moral: Redemption is possible, positive change is achievable for anyone.

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Closing Thoughts

Jeff Schoep’s journey from leading a hate movement to becoming a peace-builder showcases the power of transformation and the dangers of ideological extremism. This episode serves as both a warning and a beacon of hope, unpacking the profound psychological, social, and familial costs of radicalization, and the importance of having compassion and support for those seeking change.

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Links:

• [Jeff Schoep’s Book: “American Nazi: From Hate to Humanity”]
• [Beyond Barriers (Nonprofit)]

(Links provided in the episode description.)

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Transcript

[Jeff Schoep]

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[Jeff Schoep]

people leave extremist neo Nazi type movements, but I figured all the others are so different. And what I learned quickly by meeting people from other extremist groups, like former Al Qaeda members, former ISIS members, former antifa. All different types of extreme groups. The way they hold people in place, the psychology of it is almost identical. Original American Nazi party, George Lincoln Rockwell. He was assassinated and a number of others were as well. So the group I was a part of was a continuation of that movement.

[Sean]

Okay, guys, got Jeff coming in on the show today, virtually tuning in from Michigan. How's it going, Jeff?

[Jeff Schoep]

Great. Thanks for having me, Sean.

[Sean]

Absolutely. I know you got the new book, American Nazi From Hate to Humanity.

[Jeff Schoep]

That's right, right.

[Sean]

What was the inspiration for wanting to get your story out there?

[Jeff Schoep]

Well, I. I feel like, you know, I mean, I. I have a pretty. Led a pretty crazy life, unfortunately, and I feel like that it's a story that can uplift people. So since the book's been out, you know, I've had people that have written in and, and you know, they've went through all kinds of struggles in their life, whether that's been drugs or alcohol or whether that's been leaving a cult or leaving an extremist group or, or anything of that nature. You know, if, if you've been through some struggles, this is, this is a book for you.

[Sean]

Would you label the group you were part of as. As a culture?

[Jeff Schoep]

Yeah. You know, when I was involved in it, I wouldn't have called it that, but looking at it from the outside, looking in and looking back on that, it was definitely a cult. And I can tell you when I was involved in it, different women that I was dating from outside of the movement, one after another, they were telling me, like, if they would come to an event or something, they'd be like, this is a cult. You're like a cult leader. And I'm thinking, what is wrong with these choices I'm making in women? I'm making terrible choices because they keep saying these dumb things, you know, and the truth and the reality of it is it's easier to blame someone else than look at the person in the mirror and say, you know what? They were right. There was nothing wrong with any of them. It was. It was me that was the problem. And yeah, I was. I would definitely call it a cult now. I mean, if you, if you look at the dynamics of cult Dynamics and how to. How cults hold someone in place. It is very, very similar to extremist groups. And I found that very interesting. Even after I had left the movement, I felt I could help people leave extremist, neo Nazi type movements. But I figured all the others are so different. And what I learned quickly by meeting people from other extremist groups, like former Al Qaeda members, former ISIS members, former antifa. All different types of extreme groups, the way they hold people in place, the psychology of it is almost identical across the boards between all the groups. So I, I feel like there's a lot of parallels and there's. I don't feel like it. I know there's a lot of parallels. And you know, these type of tactics can be utilized to, to help get people out.

[Sean]

Yeah, I'm very fascinated with colts. I've seen so many documentaries on them and half the time I feel like people don't even realize they're in one or even leading one.

[Jeff Schoep]

You know, 100% you. Most people will not tell you if they're involved in it. They'll. They won't say they're in a cult. They think they're part of this caus noble ideal. They're doing something that everybody else on the outside world hasn't figured out or isn't, isn't queued into and they're right and everybody else is wrong. And, and I can attest to that. That's how I felt all, you know, the many years that I was involved.

[Sean]

So did you feel kind of trapped at a certain point?

[Jeff Schoep]

Say again?

[Sean]

Did you feel kind of trapped at a certain point? Like, did you want to leave and you felt like you were stuck for a while?

[Jeff Schoep]

100% because I was leading, because I was leader of this organization for 25 years. Like, I felt like the old saying, like, this is your bed, now you have to lie in it. So towards the end, when I'm wanting to break free from it, I didn't feel like there was a way out. Like, I didn't think, I didn't even think that was possible. Like, I felt like the first things that I was trying to do in the last years that I was involved in it was change the group. You know, I'm saying, oh, this isn't a neo Nazi group. It's a white civil rights organization. And you know, that's putting lipstick on a pig that's tried to dress up something that's ugly and call it pretty. It's still a pig. It doesn't matter if it has lipstick. On it, it's still a pig. And in my mind, that was the way I was trying to, so called air quotes, fix things. I was trying to fix what I had, the wrong path that I had taken for so long because it took a while to realize that. And then once I realized that, I was like, well, I got to fix this. When I realized I couldn't fix it, then it was time to disengage and leave. And leave that lifestyle and work against it.

[Sean]

Did you feel like at first the intentions were kind of good, or did you feel like it just progressively got crazier and crazier?

[Jeff Schoep]

Like when I joined. You mean when I first got involved? Yeah, yeah. I felt like I was joining this noble cause and that it was this, you know, I was going to help my people, I was going to save my country. And this is a common misconception that a lot of people have about these groups because when we look at it from the outside looking in, we think, we think to ourselves, my gosh, this neo Nazi or this cult member, what, what, you know, put whatever label on it, but they must know what they're doing is wrong, that it's evil, that it's, that it's harmful for humanity in their minds. Unless you're a sociopath or a psychopath, you have some other maladies, psychological maladies going on in your head. Most of the people that are involved in this stuff, they believe that they're doing something good and noble. And I was definitely of that mindset. So I was an ideologue to that cause and, and I fully believed in it until the last few years that I was involved. And I started really questioning it before breaking free.

[Sean]

And now with the rise of social media and free speech, specifically Twitter, are you seeing a resurgence in the neo Nazi ideologies?

[Jeff Schoep]

People try to gauge that a lot and it's tough to say, but I think you are seeing a lot of, that, you are seeing a lot of rise of this ideology. But I see it going both ways. On, on both sides, there's something called reciprocal radicalization. That's an, that's the academic term for it. Like, I understood the process, but I didn't know of this term until the last six years or so when I've been doing this work. And it basically means that the two extremes, you know, the different kind of extremes fuel each other. So people will get involved and they'll say, well, the more extreme it gets on the right, you know, the more extreme it gets on the left and vice versa, you know, so These two sides are pulling more and more people from the center, where most of us are somewhere in the middle, left and right. And they're pulling us out to these extremes because they're saying things like, you know, well, if this happens, you know, fascism is going to take over, you know, or if this happens, communism is going to take over, you know, so people are like, oh, my gosh, I got to get involved. I got to do something. And, you know, those are the. Some of the pathways into extremism for a lot of people. Is that reciprocal radicalization.

[Sean]

I see that so much, especially with religion. Like, they're trying to bring the Islam stuff and the communism link there, the socialism link. Yeah, that's a hot topic right now for sure.

[Jeff Schoep]

Right?

[Sean]

Yeah. I wonder, because that's the type of stuff. I don't know how active you are on Twitter, but that's the kind of topics that go viral, you know.

[Jeff Schoep]

Oh, for sure, for sure. Well, and anything that. That signals outrage or, or panic or anything like that is always. Is. Is drawing the algorithms and is drawing the eyes. Just like, more so than kindness or compassion or things that we should be drawn to, you know, things that are uplifting. It's those negative things. It's like looking at a train wreck or a car wreck or something. You know, everybody's got to stop and stare for a minute. You know, that's. That's. I feel like some of that's intentional.

[Sean]

Yeah. And now I feel like it's so easy to join communities. Like back when you joined 30 years ago, it was all in person. Right. There wasn't like an online forum.

[Jeff Schoep]

Yeah. And I mean, that was you. Can you talk about extremism? You said the good and the bad back in those days, like, I had to search out the movement. It was kind of the early days of. Of computers and, and like, what we have now, it certainly wasn't anywhere near that level. But in the early days with computers and stuff was sort of a new thing. Nowadays you've got. You could be 10 years old and click a couple buttons online and find these groups. And that's. That's really disturbing. So some of these radical groups are going into target children in games. Like, I'm not going to pick on anybody specific, but we could say Roblox, for. For one is one. We specifically been targeting kids in these things. And, and the parents think, oh, it's like Legos or. Or whatever else. Nobody's. It's a kids thing. What. Why would adults be in there promoting this stuff? And, and they are in some cases. And it's really scary because the parents definitely have to be aware of what your kids are looking at online.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's scary. I mean, I grew up playing video games my whole life and I never even questioned like being put in danger, you know? But now I feel like it's a different era. Like you really gotta monitor your kids and what they're. Because. Because of the Voice chat, right?

[Jeff Schoep]

100%. Yeah. That's where they're doing a lot of that recruiting.

[Sean]

Yeah, I saw. I think Ryan Montgomery and Sean Ryan show talk about this. I mean, there's a lot of child trafficking going on from video games.

[Jeff Schoep]

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[Sean]

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[Jeff Schoep]

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[Jeff Schoep]

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[Jeff Schoep]

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[Sean]

have have any former members reached out to you from the Neo Nazi organization? Have they reached out to you to try to leave or talk to you?

[Jeff Schoep]

Hundreds. I mean it was I I figured when I left that there would be some that would reach out. And that was part of my intention when I left was to speak out, you know, to I made an announcement that I was not immediately when I first spoke, first left, I retired. But I knew I was going to speak out. But I did that to put some space between myself and the movement and also to process everything. You know, that was a really difficult time period. But in 2019, later that year when I felt like, you know, now is the time I'm going to make that announcement and I put out a website and I said I was going to speak out against racism and hate and be a peace builder. Now at this point I'm getting inundated with people that are reaching out to leave the movement. I'm hearing from people that left the movement before I did. It just disappeared and said, hey you, you finally figured it out, you know, you know, some of those. And then there was other people that would reached out that wanted to leave, that wanted to change their life. And a lot of them were just curious, you know, so they would reach out and they would be curious about it. So they're like, so you left, you know, are you a communist now? Are you antifa now? And that was like not one, not two, but like one after the other. I was speaking to myself at the time. What am I saying that is making someone think that I'm a radical on the other extreme now? Because I wasn't saying anything extreme and I had to bring my mind back to that place and say, listen, remember we'll remove when anybody left when you were involved, you automatically assume the same thing because these Groups, they don't think in, like, rational, they don't think in, like, black and, excuse me, they think in black and white, no pun intended. But there's gray areas in between, you know, so they think if you left, you must be on this other side. You're either working for the government, you're a fed, an informant, or something like that, or you're antifa, you're a communist and anarchist, something like that. And it's, it's not, you know, that can be the case with some people, but it's not usually the case. It's that there's those gray areas in life. You can be on the right, you can be on the left, you can be wherever you want. Drop the racism, drop the hate, and, you know, get away from the extremism. But in that mindset, they. They're always thinking that it's. It's something extreme. So instead of being impatient or getting upset by that, I would just say, well, why do you think that, you know, and, and engage in this conversation with them or explain to them. No, I'. Like so. And you quickly find out that a lot of the people were like, wow, I would like to leave too, but I thought I would have to do that. And if that's the case, I'm staying right where I'm at. Like, no, dude, there's all this space in the middle. You can be anywhere you want. And it's just having those conversations. And once you've been in that environment, I think, or in that cult like environment, it's hard to break free of that sort of thinking. So having someone kind of patiently walk them through that and explain that to them and show them that there's a better life out there for them, I think that that makes a big difference. So that was one of the things I felt like it was. I didn't have to do it, but it was. I felt a pull or a responsibility to have done, to do that, to show other people that there's a way out. Because I spent a lot of years, you know, doing the wrong thing. I thought the best way to repair some of the damage that I had done by the ideology that I'd spread was to help others and, and actually do something really good for humanity.

[Sean]

Yeah. Wow, that's interesting. So you actually got a decent amount of support when you left.

[Jeff Schoep]

I mean, people that. Yes. That were coming out as far as, like, support from me personally? No, no, like a lot of it alone. But I quickly was able to pull together a team of people and, and, and Other former extremists and other people that had been through that life and, and individuals like Daryl Davis who had helped pull a lot of people out of the clan and stuff like that. Daryl and I are brothers and we work closely together to this day.

[Sean]

Yeah, I just saw his interview. Man, that, that dude changed a lot of lives.

[Jeff Schoep]

Daryl Davis, he's, he's a legend.

[Sean]

His legend. Crazy. Yeah, it's crazy to see how it's all evolved. Like Antifa Trump labeled them as a terrorist organization now, right?

[Jeff Schoep]

Yeah, yeah, something like that.

[Sean]

So it's, it's pretty high stakes now. If you're looking to join a group like that, it's now like a huge felony, I'd imagine or something.

[Jeff Schoep]

Yeah, I mean getting involved in that extreme, in any extreme stuff, whether it's far right, far left or, or anything in between, it's just, it's not a, it's not a good thing for a person's future. And I know like ideology drove a lot of people in. It did for me as well. You know, like we think we're doing something good, we think we're doing something noble and this is our way to be a part of something like that. But a person has to use, you know, critical thinking skills when they're doing this. And I say this now as somebody that effed up and fell into that rabbit hole. But truly, if you look at something and if that cause is going to potentially get you locked up or get you involved in illegal or things like that, it's not good for your life. You know, that's gonna, that's gonna screw you up and, and harm you way down the road and, and especially in this day and age with online and everything, somebody can look up your background. You know, if you got arrested for, you know, starting a fire or a hate crime or whatever it might be because you were involved in one of these extreme organizations, that kind of stuff can follow you around for a long time.

[Sean]

So.

[Jeff Schoep]

Right. It doesn't mean your life is over. You know, we don't want people to think like they have to stay stuck in those movements. But you, if you haven't gotten involved, you're for the better because it's a lot of work to break free from it and turn your life around for sure.

[Sean]

When you were leading the group was, was getting locked up one one of your bigger fears? Were you really scared of getting thrown in prison or someone?

[Jeff Schoep]

Well, it was something to be concerned about. The group that I was a part of was an above ground organization. So if people were getting involved in like, really serious illegal activities, they would get thrown out of the group, you know, and that wasn't coming from a place of like this moral high ground. It was coming from the place of protecting the organization. The organization came first. The individuals were, you know, were secondary. So if anybody was doing something that could potentially get the organization shut down or harmed, they were a threat to the group is the way we looked at it. But yeah, there was always. There was always that concern you always had to be wary of if the person next to you was a paid informant, agent provocateur, somebody that was sent in to spy, you know, if they're being paid to be there or cut a deal because they got into some kind of trouble or things like that. That was in my book. I discuss a few of those. A few of those incidences. Certainly not all of them, because it would be an encyclopedia. That's how.

[Sean]

Holy crap.

[Jeff Schoep]

Any, any of these groups. They all always had informants, you know, and people just didn't know, but a lot. We were very vigilant in trying to uncover that because you learn. I learned lessons the hard way in leadership, you know, like being infiltrated and then some people got hurt, you know, in a big violent attack. So something like that happens. I started running counterintelligence and, you know, early on, starting back in the late 90s, started running counterintelligence, infiltrating far left groups, things, Things of that nature. So we always knew where they were, what they were up to. Supplant false information, false locations for events and, and, and keep intel on what our enemies were doing.

[Sean]

Wow, you're out here playing chess, man.

[Jeff Schoep]

Yeah. A lot of strategy and a lot of tactics. Yes, for sure.

[Sean]

Wow. I didn't know there were that many informants. That's almost like unbelievable.

[Jeff Schoep]

Staggering. It's staggering how many there was. It was just. And when you think you had it figured in the early years, I thought I had it figured out because a lot of the informants were easy to spot. They'd come in and they'd be like, hey, let's go. I don't even know what we can say on the air. Let's go do this terrible illegal activity that will cause all this destruction. And you go, that person is somebody that was sent in or they're an idiot and they're going to go to prison. And we don't want either one of those around us. So there was a lot of that, but later on it got a lot, a lot more. These groups got more skillful at bringing people in and not saying those things or just silently, you know, collecting information, writing down license plate numbers, or filming or recording things. You know, who knows? I can't speak to all their tactics, but it's. It was wild.

[Sean]

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[Jeff Schoep]

Yes, and there's probably. I'm sure there's some that probably were never uncovered. There's a Lot of them that were never uncovered. But I was always in the, in the movement. One of the things is paranoia is really high and a lot of it's legit paranoia because they are being infiltrated and there is all this kind of stuff. But that paranoia because of some of those incidences gets so high and so ramped up that literally everybody that's involved in it at one point or another gets accused of being an informant or a rat or something like that. And it's crazy. Like I, I saw so much of that going on in the early years. I thought, wow, this is a problem. Like, yeah, there is a lot of informants, but every time, like in some of the groups, somebody would steal somebody's girlfriend. That guy was an informant, you know, come on now, you know. Or somebody quit one clan to join another clan or one skinhead group to join another, that guy's an informant because he left our group, you know, or they would make up something. So there was a lot of that. So for me, I didn't call anybody an informant. I would might say I was suspicious of somebody, but I was demanding like concrete evidence. We would get either like record phone calls or get video proof or dig up stuff, you know, finding people that actually gotten locked up because of somebody or trace records and would a lot of, a lot of things like that to find them.

[Sean]

Were a lot of them just like, were any of the members that turned informant or were most of them kind of just people trying to join?

[Jeff Schoep]

Both, because you have some that sometimes you would have somebody that, you know, you felt like was probably a legitimate member and then they got wrapped up in something and they were offered a deal, you know, at some point and then they took it. That would happen sometimes and other times it was just people that had come in from, from the get go that were sent in and you know, you're talking about government organizations, non government organizations and your, you know, monitoring groups or anti fascist groups as well.

[Sean]

Wow. So it wasn't just the government that was informing. It was a bunch of different groups,

[Jeff Schoep]

lots of different groups.

[Sean]

Which ones did you fear the most? I guess.

[Jeff Schoep]

Well, in, in the Neo Nazi movement, you know, everything is blamed on the Jews. So the Jews aren't behind everything. You know, it's, it's just like, it's, it's crazy. But that's how they, that's how they see it, you know, so. But the government was usually, you know, the, the greatest threat I think. And in that sense, because they have the most power to be able to have you locked up or something like that. But so it's always something to be aware of. But for some groups, it's more. It's more serious than others because if you're engaged in criminal activity and, you know you're going down as far as that goes. But I kept things as much as legal and above board as possible.

[Sean]

What a crazy life, man. You must sleep much better at night now.

[Jeff Schoep]

If I tell you, man, leaving, being involved in this movement, the best way I can explain it, it was like living in a war zone. It was like being at war for my entire life. And even when you. When I first left, like, it's almost like it's an adrenaline drain in some ways, or, you know, you're going through, you know, people talking about trauma and all this, and I thought, oh, trauma's a bunch of b. Real. And here I am, I'm not. I'm not able to sleep at night. I'm, like shaking, and it's like, oh, that. That might be trauma, you know, like, maybe it is real, you know, but, yeah, it's definitely real. And. And yeah, it's not. It's not a life I'd recommend for anybody. I had to learn to live civilian life after leaving because my whole life since I was a teenager was involved in this stuff. And so I left in 2019. So I need to learn how to. How to operate in the real world.

[Sean]

Yeah, you hear that from people that are in prison. Like, they. They don't know how to operate in the real world. It's almost like you were in a whole nother world, right?

[Jeff Schoep]

Yeah, yeah. And it. I mean, there is some comparisons to that. I've heard that a lot too. When people in prison, they get like, institutionalized and they don't know how to act when they get out, and they'll just commit petty crimes and end up going right back in there. So I understand that mentality. But, yeah, this is. This was almost just like being at war all the time. Like, you. Different things happen. I. I covered some of. Some of these things in the book, but you couldn't cover everything because that was so many years. There's certain things you can't mention, and there's certain things I needed to cut short. But, like, I had been had raids on my house back in Minnesota and here in Detroit as well. It was no knock warrants out there, so the doors were kicked in at four in the morning when my kids were sleeping and at school the next day and all that. So that was definitely traumatizing. And for them especially. And yeah, it's not, it's not a life I would recommend for anybody. So if anybody's out there thinking like, hey, I might want to get involved in this stuff, the likelihood of making it is as many years as I did is pretty unlikely. The chances, the chances of ending up dead or in prison are a lot better.

[Sean]

Wow. That's pretty crazy. So you.

[Jeff Schoep]

Yeah.

[Sean]

You did it for 25 years, right?

[Jeff Schoep]

20. 25 and leading the group and 27 total.

[Sean]

Jeez. And you didn't see many people make it that long.

[Jeff Schoep]

No, I see a lot of people lost their lives. A lot of people went to prison. You know, some people. There's some people that are. That are in and that have been in many years. We use. Typically leader doesn't make it that long. They're. They're just. They don't, they don't. They're not able to.

[Sean]

Because they get hit first. Right, with charges.

[Jeff Schoep]

Yeah, they're either either charges or they. Or they're overthrown or. Or different things like that, you know, or assassinated in some cases. You know, the founder of the original American Nazi Party, George Lincoln Rockwell, he was assassinated and a number of others were as well, so. And wanted. The group I was a part of was a continuation of that movement. Dang.

[Sean]

So you had to even fear assassination in your position?

[Jeff Schoep]

Yeah, I survived assassination attempts. Yeah. Yeah. I got a stop across the back of my head from one of them.

[Sean]

Holy crap. That's crazy. Did you know that, like, was it like a group trying to overtake you or something?

[Jeff Schoep]

That particular incident was an antifa group back then. They were ara anti racist action. But that was back in the late 90s as Antifa in that particular case. But in other cases, you know, I've been shot at, I've had people try to stab me, you know, you name it. Lots of, lots of negative stuff. That's why I say people don't typically make it this long. It's not a. It's not a good lifestyle. Geez.

[Sean]

This part of you wonder like how you pulled it off. Do you think it was like. I don't know if you're religious or like you believe in any of that,

[Jeff Schoep]

but yeah, I mean, I thank God, you know, I feel like there's a reason that. That I'm still here today. And I think it's. It's to do. To do good, you know, to do good things with lessons that I've learned in the life that I've led, you know, to help other people not make. Make that same, same path there's got to be because even when I was writing the book, you know, like, you don't think when, when you're in the thick of it and all this stuff is happening, it's just like your life, like this is just how it is. And when I was. It took me a few years to finish writing the book because I'm going through it and I mean, I'm even telling like, like my girl and a couple of other people. I'm saying, like, my God, I forgot. I almost forgot about this. Or like I'm writing about this incident and then I'm remembering other things that, that took place and, and I was like, my gosh, if I hadn't lived this life, I don't know if I would even believe this. But I don't even know I'm alive, you know? Like, it's. It's just so. It's so crazy. It's so crazy. There was just so much stuff like that and, and it's. Yeah. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. I really wouldn't.

[Sean]

Wow. They might have to turn this into a movie, man.

[Jeff Schoep]

I, I think, I think with the. There's been some interest from the book from filmmakers and things like that, because it, it is. I definitely think it'll. It'll be a film someday. I just, I don't. We don't have the right filmmaker just yet, I don't think.

[Sean]

Yeah, well, hopefully one day I'd love to see it on film and. All right. Anything else here? What are you working on now, since the book's out? You're just promoting it now?

[Jeff Schoep]

Yeah, I mean, I'm hoping that a lot of people get a hold of the book and, and do that. But I'm also working with. I work with a number of different organizations. I'm a public speaker, so I've been all over the world. I've spoken in Canada, Turkey, Australia. I just got back from my Australia tour with the book. In August and September, I spoke at the Nobel Peace center in Norway, which is. That was, I mean, like a dream come true. Unbelievable. And I work, I do some public speaking and consulting with the Simon Wiesenthal center, which is an international human rights organization. Jewish human rights organization, but they cover human rights. All people. Now is the time to shop for upgrades that transform your yard during spring Backyard days at the Home Depot. Turn an empty corner into a hangout with the Hampton Bay Brook Mill four piece patio set. Then brighten your garden with lilacs or begonias and help them thrive with vigro potting soil. It's the finishing touches that really bring your space together with low prices. Guaranteed Shop Spring backyard days for seven days at the Home Depot now through May 6th. Exclusion supplies. See homedepot.com pricematch for details.

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[Sean]

Yeah. We'll include a link to the charity in the video too. Thanks for doing that. So you're speaking all over the world about this. It's not just a western issue.

[Jeff Schoep]

All over the world, you wouldn't believe some of the commonalities and in different places and things that we're seeing, even when I was in Australia, some of the same exact problems that we have here, they have there. So it's, it's, it's definitely a global issue. It's something that, where a difference can be made all over the world to stem the tide of this stuff.

[Sean]

Do you see any common traits with the type of people that are being recruited, whether it's a gang or an extremist group? Like, do you see a lack of father figure? Do you see any similarities with the people they're recruiting?

[Jeff Schoep]

You know, that's, that's a thing that, when I first got out, I was criticizing because a lot of the academics were saying, well, only people that are getting involved in this are coming from, like, broken homes. Or they were taught this. And that does happen, that those cases are real. And that is. That is a common thread for a lot of people. But it's not always the case. And in fact, it's not even most of the time the case. But these are all factors that can go into that. But it's really hard to say, like, this demographic or this group of people is more susceptible to it because I think, you know, from the outside looking in, we could say, well, you know, if someone's joining one of these hate groups, they got me really, like, low intelligence. They've. They've been taught this stuff at home. There's all these thoughts. And you have, of course you have those. You have people that fit stereotypes, but you also have people that are of high intelligence that get involved in this stuff. And cult is a perfect example. Like you said, you've, you've looked into cults and things like that, that you find people in some of those groups that are doctors and, and all kinds of things. And you think, wow, how did they fall for that? Like, some of these calls are. So I, I study this stuff too, you know, and you see, like, it was what. I won't name them, but there was one where they're. They think they're talking to Robin Williams in heaven and stuff, and these. And you go, oh, and person has a master's degree, you know, like, like, yeah. So I mean, that's why I say anybody's susceptible to it. So whenever somebody says, like, oh, this talk isn't for me. I don't need to hear this. I would never join a hate group. I'd never join a gang. Oh, let, let, you know, anybody is. Is. Anybody could be susceptible to it. So I, I think we shouldn't think in that, in that mindset where, oh, I would never fall for this, because a lot of people, a lot of people can. So we need to boost our, our own critical thinking skills and our ability to discern disinformation and misinformation and malinformation and things of that nature. So we look into things before we Slide into these, these dark places.

[Sean]

Yeah. I guess the one similarity I've seen from the cultiv study is they're good at kind of manipulating your, your emotions, you know?

[Jeff Schoep]

Yep.

[Sean]

I think that's the one thing I've noticed. It's like they'll spot a weakness in your motion and they can kind of manipulate that into making you join or something.

[Jeff Schoep]

For sure. Yeah. I mean, manipulation is a huge part of it, and then the emotional response as well. And that even goes back to that reciprocal radicalization thing I mentioned earlier, where you feel like, compelled, like, well, I've got to do this or, or our country is going to be gone, or I have to do this because God said so. And this is, and this is a, another commonality is like groups like isis, you know, and a lot of times, you know, they'll say, like, okay, so this person was chopping heads off and, and things like that. How does that happen? It must be an, a really evil, insane person and, or a psychopath. And, and in some cases, yes, but in other cases, that's an individual that was radicalized to believe they're doing the work of God, that they're, they're serving a higher power. And, and I always find it interesting, like when the media or somebody goes and interviews somebody that knew this young man or woman growing up and said, well, I knew John growing up and, and he was a nice young man to help little old ladies cross the street and all this kind of. I don't know how he ended up in ISIS doing that sort of thing.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jeff Schoep]

In a Nazi group. But it's, that's the radicalization that it can. I can take a person that's got a good heart, that's got a good. So wanting to do something good and turn it into something evil.

[Sean]

Yeah, It's a very interesting point because you. We think in terms of good and evil, but those people that are doing these heinous acts think if what they're doing is good, like you said. Right.

[Jeff Schoep]

Yes. Yeah. And that's, that's a hard thing for some people to wrap their minds around. And, and when I say that, it's not that I'm excusing it. I'm trying to explain the psychology of it as well, because I think if we don't understand the psychology of it, if we don't understand how a person can get to that place, how can we confront it, how can we combat it, how can we fix it? And that was one of the first things that I noticed after I'd gotten Out is that there was some of the people that were speaking out. They were just saying things like, well, I was just filled full of hate. I just woke up every day and I was just filled full of hate. And I hated everybody. And I'm thinking, my gosh, I don't want to say that they're lying, but I'm saying they're not articulating their feelings correctly. And this is what people think from the outside is that it's just all wrapped up in this hate thing. And I try to explain it. Hate is a byproduct. Hate is not the driver for this stuff. If hate is the driver, you've got some other psychological issues that need to be addressed. That's just a weird thing to have your life revolve around. These people believe that they're part of some kind of. Most of them believe that they're part of a greater cause, something that's greater than themselves. And that's why it's so hard to break that ideology and get through to somebody. And why telling somebody that they're wrong doesn't typically work either. You have to show them how they're wrong. That is interesting.

[Sean]

Yeah. Leading by hate is dangerous. Same with, I think, anger, too. A lot of people can't control their anger, you know.

[Jeff Schoep]

Right. And especially if you had those impulse control, tough ability to control those impulses, and you get involved in an extremist group now you've just got all these more reasons to be angry and enraged and, and fly off the handle or snap and. Right. It's. It's a short road between hatred and violence. It's a. It's a short. It's a very short road.

[Sean]

Now, you must have had really good emotional control to make it that long, because when you study all the top mafia guys, a lot of their downfall was their ego and their emotion. Right.

[Jeff Schoep]

Yeah. And that. That was something that you have to have a lot of control. The organization that was running had a very strict structure, and it was structured a lot like the military. So there was ranks and things like that. And that was also to control the individuals in it. Because if somebody stepped out of line and broke the rules, that could blow back on the organization and other people, you know, and then you catch things like aiding and abetting charges or that, you know, you. You were complicit in something because you let somebody go do something and you knew that they were going to do it. There's people sitting in prison for 40 years for stuff like that, for somebody saying something illegal and Then they just not, not doing anything about it. So I was hyper aware of that sort of thing. And from one lesson or one, one experience that I share in the book early on was an attempt by the government to set us up with military surplus, I guess we could call it. And I'm like 19, I think at the time. 18, 19 years old. This is before I was running the group. And I'm thinking, oh, cool, we're going to get all this military stuff. This is great. And you know, it's just being a kid thinking, you know, not that I was going to go out and do anything bad with it, but I just thought, oh, that'll be cool to have all these, all these weapons and things like that. Because in my mind there was going to be a race war, a civil war. The country was going to fall apart. And you know, this was some stuff we didn't have. You know, we had some weapons and not, not all this stuff. And turns out that was a, that was an entrapment attempt. So learning that lesson early on and seeing that, because the guy that was running the NSM at the time, he, he, he knew what it was right away. And after learning that lesson then I started becoming very careful. So learning things early on and, and seeing that and then keeping a tightly controlled environment kept me out of. That's why I say most people won't make it. They will not make it. They'll end up in prison or dead.

[Sean]

Yeah. You said there was ranks earlier. Was it always your goal to climb the ranks and get to the highest level, or did that kind of just happen over time?

[Jeff Schoep]

No, for me, that wasn't a goal. I just wanted to be part of it. So. But when I first joined, I was recruiting a lot of people. I was bringing people in. So I was appointed local group leader, South St. Paul at the time where I lived. Excuse me. And then I just moved up rather quickly. And then the leader was looking to retire and asked me if I wanted to take over the organization. And I was thinking like, oh, this isn't really something that I, I didn't see myself doing. I didn't necessarily want to do it, but I didn't say no either. I was like, okay, well, I'll take this on. And he was still helping help mentor me or give me advice or whatever. But a lot of it was learning, learning along the way. But it's from a leadership perspective. When you, in my experience, the guys that would come, guys or gals, whatever, when they would come to the organization and be like, hey, I'm going to be a big leader. You know, you should, you know, give me this rank or whatever. I can rec. I'll have 20 new recruits in two weeks. Or, or things like that. That. Those guys were always the worst leaders. They didn't recruit nobody. They were terrible leaders because they had this mindset that they were above everybody else. It was usually the reluctant leaders or the people that were willing to just, you know, boots to the ground, be willing to do stuff. The true believers that weren't in it about ego or self, but the cause. Because, I mean, there, over the years, you had to. The cause was above friendships. It was above everything. Like, and it's really sad, you know, when you think about it from a humanistic perspective. That's really sad.

[Sean]

Yeah, and.

[Jeff Schoep]

And it's tragic. Tragic is the word I think I was looking for. I mean, it's a tragic way to. To think and live, you know?

[Sean]

Wow. I didn't know it was. It was not important. So would you say when you were actively in it, it took more importance than your own family?

[Jeff Schoep]

Oh, that's a. That's a deep question, Sean. Oh, you got me on this one. The. I mean, I'd like to say no. I mean, family should always come first, 100%. But, like, when you're wrapped up in this stuff, it becomes your. Your whole. Your whole world. And you don't see. It's almost like you don't see the cost that it's having on your family. You know, you. You realize it, but you, you think it's. You. You tell yourself it's for a greater cause. Like, some of the people that left, they'll say, well, I left because I had kids now, and, and I didn't want them to live this life, so I got away from it. Other people would have been or were like, I'm doing this. I'm in this cause for my kids, you know, and. And they're going to have a better future because of this. And I was of more of that mindset. But at the same time, I started looking at some of the things that were happening in. In the later years that I was involved in it. And I always kept my kids kind of. They knew I was involved, but I kept them separate from it, you know, so it still damaged them, but they were never, like, active in it. And sometimes people would ask that, like, well, why aren't they active? Because some people would bring their. Have their kids active in it and stuff. And I always thought, well, it was a hard question for me. To answer at the time. But I always figured, like, every parent wants a better life for their kids than what they had. I survived assassination attempts and all this violence and all these different things that happened over the years. I didn't want that for my kids. I didn't want that. I mean, I don't wish that on. I don't wish that on my enemies, much less your family. But I think. I think everybody would tell you family comes first. But in the reality of it, when you're mixed up in the thickness of this stuff, like, it's really the cause that comes first. And I saw so many people, like, throw away relationships or become ostracized from their families or to families that ostracize them. I was very fortunate in that sense where my family didn't completely cut me off, but I saw it time and time again with other people. So the isolation becomes all consuming as well. So even if somebody's having second thoughts thoughts, now they're in the cult or this extremist group, you name it. I mean, they're all kind of the same in that sense. Now you're in this and you're having second thoughts, but your families shut the door on you. All your old friends and everybody you knew from before, they're like, oh, he's involved. He or she's involved in this stuff. I don't like them. I don't like the way they've become. I don't want no part of that. So now you're, like, standing out on this, on this diving board or alone, and it's easier to stay involved in. In what you're in. So. Yeah, it was a. That was a pull too, for me, you know, like my whole. My career, my business, everything was. And everybody I knew was wrapped up in it, so it took me a little bit to break free from it.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's probably why it's so hard for people to leave, because their. Their own family usually cut them off by that point. And when they leave, they got no one. Right.

[Jeff Schoep]

Right. Or if families are in it, that's even. Even another complexity. That's. There's just so many complexities to it.

[Sean]

Yeah. You mentioned enemies earlier. Have you pretty much made peace with your enemies? Any resentment still there?

[Jeff Schoep]

That's a tough thing to say. Like, I. I don't. I don't view people as. I guess I wouldn't say I view people as necessarily enemies, but there's. I'm sure there's people that view me as an enemy in the movement. When you leave You, A lot of times you can leave and you're, you're fine depending on the group, but if you even speak out against it, you're considered like a traitor, basically, that they find that really offensive and they don't like it. I don't attack the, I don't attack the individuals. When I, when I speak about this stuff, I, I attack the ideology. So I'm not saying that the people are bad. I'm saying that they're people that are caught up in some bad stuff and, and got him. Well, that doesn't, if you're a radicalized individual, that doesn't matter. You know, there'd be like, steve's still a traitor. I don't care. You know, they think that way, but so you have to just say, like, you know, I've lived my life a certain way and I haven't. And I feel like I'm, I'm doing an honorable thing now. So, I mean, that, that's, that I didn't snitch on people. I didn't, you know, send people to jail or anything like that. I think, you know, that's a little different. Everybody, you know, has their own choices to make in life. I didn't do anything like that. So I've got credibility in a lot of their eyes in the sense of, like, well, if he left and changed his life, maybe I can too. So it was another reason why I wanted to do the work that I'm doing now. But, you know, I mean, as far as, as far as that goes, when I first left, there was a lot of challenges because, you know, the people, a lot of the people on the left would say, once a Nazi, always a Nazi. I don't believe him. Him or he didn't dox everybody on his way out, so he's still a Nazi. I mean, everybody's a Nazi if you don't like what they're doing or you don't agree with them. And then from the Nazi side, oh, he's a traitor because he's speaking out against us. So I went from fighting the left to getting it from both sides in a sense. So I guess out of the frying pan into the flames. But, but I'm doing the right thing. So I, I, I don't have any, I don't have any regrets.

[Sean]

Has your view of snitches changed since? I know you definitely hated them before, but how do you feel about them now?

[Jeff Schoep]

I personally, I personally wouldn't. I mean, I had, interestingly enough, like, I mean, we uncovered quite a Few when I was involved in that because we were, Were really keen and aware of it and were looking for it. But I had a couple people that contacted me after I left and told me that they were snitches when they were involved. And I. Whoa, that's interesting. You know, and obviously I would never, I would never say anything, but, you know, name anybody, but I personally wouldn't. Wouldn't do it. I mean, if somebody come to me, you know, they're going to go kill people or something. That's a little different, I think, but I don't know. It's, it's, It's a, It's a good question. It's a complicated question, but I understand it because, I mean, law enforcement especially has a job to do, and if people are, are engaged in criminal activities, you know, you have to be concerned about that. Me personally, I was approached a couple of times over the years to try, try to flip me or, or turn me or whatever, and I just said, you got the wrong person. That's not something I, I mean, I, I even had people offer to buy me out for like a million dollars at point. And.

[Sean]

What, Wait, what, what do you mean by that? Like a group wanted to control your. What you were saying?

[Jeff Schoep]

I was approached at one point by an individual that said there was a. There was several of us from the leadership, from the group at investors, the, At. At a, At a meeting, and an individual said that they knew somebody that was a, you know, rich in Hollywood or whatever, and they said, what if that person offered you guys a million dollars to walk? Just walk away.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Jeff Schoep]

Just walk away. What would you do? And we put up the middle fingers and say, you, you can tell your friend to shove it. Expletive, expletive. But yeah, so I was never for sale as far as that goes.

[Sean]

So you didn't have a price to walk away?

[Jeff Schoep]

No.

[Sean]

Wow. And you ended up walking away for free. So is that a regret of yours to not take the money?

[Jeff Schoep]

Well, that was, I mean, that was years before, but no, I wouldn't, I wasn't doing it for money. You know, I mean, the thing is, is I had, I had financial stability when I was involved, and I walked out into this unknown world afterwards. You know, the civilian life life, I never let before with nothing. So I gave up everything as I was leaving. So in the public, you know, the, the, you know, there were stories circulating in the media. Oh, he left because he got sued in this lawsuit, or he left because of this, you know, or they, they just make up whatever they want to say, and they run with these stories and it's like, my gosh, you know, like, or he's doing this or that. People come up with their own, own reasons, but basically I, I went from a place of, of having perceived power and influence and being at the very top of the world that I was involved in and having a. I wouldn't, I wasn't rich or anything, but I was comfortable and into an unknown world with nothing on a job resume but running a white power record label for many, many years, running the Nazi party. Like what. I mean, that's quite a LinkedIn profile. You know,

[Sean]

did you have a bit of a identity crisis, you'd say, when you left? Like, it took some years to get back into the flow of things.

[Jeff Schoep]

It was challenging. It was, it was really challenging. But once I put out, once I put out my website that I was going to speak out against hate and racism, I got contacted by the Simon Wiesenthal center, which is an international human rights organization, and, and within a couple of days, the head of research there was on a, on a plane out to Detroit to meet with me and ask, you know, well, what do you want to do with your life and everything now that you, you've left the movement? And, and I said, well, I want to, I want to be a peace builder. I want to use the lessons of my past to, to help others so people don't make the same mistake. And, and, you know, Wiesenthal has been very, was very supportive when a lot of other people wouldn't see me as anything else but the person that I was for all those years. So that was, it was a, it was a very difficult time at first. And there's still, I mean, there's always going to be people that, that, that don't believe in change or that can't embrace that. And, and those of us that have led that kind of life, and we just have to be okay with that and just say, you know, okay, you know, I can't convince everybody, I can't expect everybody to, to forgive or forget that, but all I can do is live life correctly and, you know, the best I can and help others and know and know that. And I know that I've, I've saved so many lives, countless lives, like, so I, I feel very good about that. And that's, that's, that's the best thing I could possibly do with it because I've had a lot of people ask, well, well, why didn't she just go into business or why didn't you do be, you know, something else? Because I understand business. You know, I have these, I have these skills. So why not do that instead of this? Because this is, this is stressful. You know, you have to bring back up old traumas and, and think about the stuff and you put yourself out there. But I feel like this is the best thing that I can do for humanity. Like, it's not about when I was in the cause. It wasn't about me either. You know, it was about the cause. So I switched missions now, but now I'm actually doing something good instead of just thinking I'm doing something good.

[Sean]

I love it. Well, Jeff, thanks for your time, man. I can't wait to listen to your book. We'll link it in the video. Your charity, your speaking engagements, anything else you want to close off with here,

[Jeff Schoep]

I would just say to anybody that's out there that's struggling, it doesn't matter what it is. You know, this isn't about just, you know, somebody that was in a neo Nazi group or, or anything like that. Whatever struggle that you're going through, if you're trying to change your life, if you've gotten into some bad stuff stuff, there's still hope for you. If you're still alive, you're not stuck behind bars for the rest of your life. You're still alive, you're still out there. You've have that opportunity to change. That's the really, the underlying message of my book is if somebody like me can do it, then you can do it too. If someone can go from that kind of darkness for 27 years and change their life around, you can too. So that's what I really want to get across to people is a lot of times people give up and they lose hope on things and they feel like, like their lives are over, especially young people. You know, you get to this, oh my gosh, my girlfriend left me, I'm gonna go take my life or something. You know, they get this terrible ideas in their head because they feel like it's all over with. Life gets better, there's always a light at the end of that tunnel. There's still hope and, and you still have opportunity to, to make things happen. So it's a real honor for me to be on the show, Sean, and thanks for having me and, and you know, keep up the good work out there.

[Sean]

Absolutely. Thanks for your time, man. Thanks for watching to the end, guys. Please comment below your thoughts on the episode, if you agree. If you disagree. I'd love to hear. I read every single comment. Means a lot to me. Thank you so much.