How to Build a Rabid Fan Base Without a Record Label | Rick Barker DSH #958

Summary

Digital Social Hour: How to Build a Rabid Fan Base Without a Record Label | Rick Barker DSH #958

Release Date: December 7, 2024

Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Rick Barker

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Introduction

In episode #958 of Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly engages in a profound conversation with Rick Barker, a seasoned music industry expert and former manager of global superstar Taylor Swift. The episode delves into the intricacies of building a dedicated fan base without the backing of a traditional record label, exploring the challenges and opportunities within the modern music landscape.

Navigating the Modern Music Industry

Rick Barker opens the discussion by highlighting the tumultuous nature of today's music industry. He emphasizes the lack of gatekeepers, allowing anyone to upload music and saturate the market. This "wild, wild west" environment creates immense noise, making it crucial for artists to differentiate themselves.

"Music's the greatest business, the most complicated business. You can't throw money at it to fix it."
— Rick Barker [02:17]

Barker stresses the importance of building genuine relationships with a small audience before scaling up. He counters the prevalent desire for immediate massive success, advocating for a steady, strategic approach.

"Everybody wants the big thing first. Most people wouldn't know how to handle the big thing first, you know, so we try to crawl before we walk, walk before we run."
— Rick Barker [02:08]

The Importance of a Loyal Fan Base Over Streaming Numbers

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around the pitfalls of relying solely on streaming platforms like Spotify and YouTube. Barker points out that while millions of views or streams can be impressive, they often translate to passive engagement. True success, he argues, lies in converting these passive listeners into active fans who are invested in the artist's journey.

"If you want to build a career, then you're going to have to slow down a little bit... How do we get them to give you an email?"
— Rick Barker [02:23]

He introduces the concept of "chosen marketing," explaining that every play or view is a deliberate choice by the consumer. The goal is to guide these choices into deeper engagement rather than letting platforms dictate the narrative.

"Everything that comes across your social media feed when they push play, they chose you out of all the stuff."
— Rick Barker [00:01]

Leveraging Technology and AI for Growth

Rick delves into the role of technology and artificial intelligence in modern music and business strategies. He advocates for using AI as a tool to enhance creativity and efficiency rather than viewing it as a threat.

"If you're using AI to help you write songs, to me, that's no different than having a co-writer that's helping you write a song."
— Rick Barker [14:15]

Barker also shares practical applications of AI in content creation, book outlining, and generating podcast ideas, emphasizing speed and scalability.

"I use it to go back to the beginner's mindset because I've been doing this for so long... I was guilty of over talking my audience."
— Rick Barker [14:29]

Rick Barker’s Personal Journey in the Music Industry

Rick Barker recounts his journey from managing Taylor Swift during her formative years to his transition into a consultant aiming to empower independent artists. His firsthand experience with major labels and navigating the complexities of artist management provides invaluable insights.

"I didn't graduate high school. I didn't go to college... I got addicted to drugs at a young age, and fortunately got sober."
— Rick Barker [39:54]

He discusses the challenges of balancing personal life with the demanding nature of the music industry, ultimately prioritizing family over financial gain.

"I'll forever be grateful. I'll always be one of your biggest fans. But my family and my kids are the most important thing."
— Rick Barker [27:59]

Empowering Independent Artists and Business Owners

Barker offers actionable advice for independent artists looking to build their fan base without relying on traditional record labels. He underscores the importance of providing value, leveraging social media effectively, and utilizing email marketing to cultivate meaningful relationships with fans.

"How can I serve who I have? Because you know what they'll go get me? More followers."
— Rick Barker [11:28]

He advocates for using tools like Facebook and Instagram ads to target high-intent audiences and transition passive viewers into engaged supporters.

"Are you going to control the rabbit hole or are you going to let YouTube control the rabbit hole?"
— Rick Barker [17:37]

The Downfall of Platforms Like Clubhouse and Lessons Learned

Reflecting on the rise and fall of platforms like Clubhouse, Barker identifies the lack of barriers to entry as a critical factor that led to its decline. He contrasts this with the structured opportunities provided by platforms like Twitter Spaces, emphasizing the need for controlled environments to maintain quality and engagement.

"Once Covet ended, everybody went back to YouTube. They went back to their normal lives."
— Rick Barker [21:04]

Understanding Record Deals and Artist Rights

Barker demystifies the mechanics of record deals, shedding light on how traditional contracts can often disadvantage artists. He explains the concept of recoupable advances and the financial burdens they impose on artists, advocating for better education and negotiation skills among musicians.

"The record company, I give you a hundred thousand dollars and I say... That's recoupable. Yes."
— Rick Barker [35:00]

He discusses the importance of artists understanding their contracts and seeking roles that allow for greater autonomy and ownership of their work.

Closing Thoughts and Final Advice

In his concluding remarks, Rick Barker reinforces the episode's central theme: the power of showing up consistently and leveraging available tools to build a sustainable career. He encourages artists to focus on serving their existing audience, providing value, and embracing technological advancements to stay ahead in the industry.

"Your past does not define your future."
— Rick Barker [39:54]

Barker invites listeners to connect with him for further guidance, emphasizing his commitment to empowering artists through education and support.

"Your past does not define your future... show up every day, kick ass, and people will notice what's going on, and the right opportunities will come your way."
— Rick Barker [39:54]

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Where to Connect with Rick Barker:

• Instagram: @RickBarkerMusic
• Website: RickBarkerMusic.com
• Free Resources: Available on his website for aspiring artists and business owners.

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Rick Barker's insights offer a roadmap for artists seeking independence in an ever-evolving music landscape. By prioritizing authentic connections, leveraging technology, and maintaining a strategic approach, artists can cultivate a loyal fan base and achieve lasting success without the need for traditional record label support.

Transcript

[A]

Everything that comes across your social media feed, when they push play, they chose you out of all the stuff. Whatever it did intrigued them to want to push play. You're just going to be excited because you got quarter of a million video views. Are you going to go retarget everyone who gave you those quarter of a million video views and turn them on to another piece?

[B]

All right, guys, Rick Barker here. We're going to talk the music industry today. I haven't had someone in your space, man. I'm excited.

[A]

Oh, wow, thanks. Well, I appreciate it. Appreciate you having me in general. I mean, everything that you're doing right now, you're touching a lot of pieces of content throughout the globe. And that's, that's what I love. It's like you find these podcasts, you're like, you need to be about this in order to do this. And you've totally proved everyone wrong. You're like, yeah, I can just go out, have interesting conversations with people, and people want that.

[B]

I don't niche down because you could learn something from every niche and apply it to your business.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

Yeah. So I'd love to hear how you penetrated one of the toughest industries, which in my opinion is the music industry.

[A]

Yeah, that's. It's interesting because I tell people that want to come into it. I'm like, you're trying to function in a dysfunctional business because the consumer does not have to pay for the product.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And think about any other business. If the consumer, it's like going to Costco, try the sample, say, oh, I like this. Just take it and leave. How long would that company or Costco be in business? And that's kind of what's happening with the, with the music business. It's, it's the wild, wild west in a way, because there's no, there's no gatekeepers. Everybody can upload music. My mother in law could upload music if she wanted to and shoot a video and start an Instagram channel and get in the way. There's just a lot of noise. So my goal since leaving Taylor has been to help independent artists and other creatives in general. Just say, look, let's go find you an audience. Let's go build a relationship with a small group of people first and then get bigger. Everybody wants the big thing first. Most people wouldn't know how to handle the big thing first, you know, so we try to crawl before we walk, walk before we run. But yeah, music's the greatest business, the most complicated business. You can't throw Money at it to fix it. There is no do A, B and C and D happens. It's no two artists career paths have ever been the same.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's, it's interesting.

[B]

And these days with everyone's short attention span, you're only remembered for your last hit.

[A]

Oh my gosh, if that. You know, it's, it's. We live in a 3 second world, a 6 sec world. And I was telling an artist one day, they were so creatives musician, it's all about the art. They're like, why are these tik tock people? And I said, look, there's people that you know the sound but you wouldn't know the artist if they were riding in the car with you. You just know the song, you just know that hook. You just know whatever. I said if you want to build a career, then you're going to have to slow down a little bit. You're going to have to take that person who saw you for six seconds and then how do we get them to watch a minute and then how do we get them to watch a three minute video and then how do we get them to listen to a song? How do we get them to give you an email? It's all be happy that all the tools and resources are available for you to get someone's attention in a world where everyone wants their attention and that they took the time to choose you that day.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The problem is, is that we rely so much on what I call rental property. Like Spotify's rental property, Instagram's rental property, YouTube's rental property. I said we need to get them to the restaurant you own, which is your website. You control the aesthetics, you control the content, you control everything. But you're relying on all these fake numbers and all these fake everything to validate you. We need to get you back focused on do you want to build a business? And if you want to build a business, you put the right product in front of the right person and make the right offer.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It doesn't matter what business you're in. And you can't expect people just because you love it to love it as well.

[B]

Yeah. So when you go on Spotify and you see some of These songs have 100 million views, like what percentage of that you think is is real?

[A]

It really depends. A lot of it could be all of it real, but it's passive listening. And what I mean by that is that it's playing in the background. You know, if I'm listening to your podcast, that's passive Listening. If I'm watching your podcast on YouTube, you. I'm now actively involved. You. I chose to be there. Sometimes your song on a playlist. Someone didn't necessarily choose to hear you, but they heard you. But there's no DJs unless somebody. Unless somebody heard something. So. Wow. I got to see who this person is, where they actually pull their phone out, open up the app, look to see who it is, go to the about section, click your H. There's a lot of work that goes into that. So these people that have these million views, there's a lot of artists right now that are making 20, $30,000 a month, really, in their streaming business, but they can't sell tickets to shows because no one knows who they are. They just know they like the song, and the song happened to be on a playlist.

[B]

I've seen some big artists cancel their tour this year.

[A]

A lot of them.

[B]

Some. Some A listers, even.

[A]

Yeah. And it. And it's sad. And I think a lot of that just has to do with one. The price of concert tickets has gotten way out of hand. It's like, what they're sold for face value, and now 10 times the reason. Oh, my goodness. It's absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. The Taylor Swift. I mean. Oh, weren't they like 500 each this year or something?

[A]

Well, and then you go try to find tickets for her right now. You know, depending on. When you're listening to this, it's going to be 3,000, $4,000 in the nosebleeds.

[B]

In the nose.

[A]

They started out at 500, but by the time we get it, we were looking. I have a young artist I work with, Jordana Bryant, amazing little artist. She's this generation's version of. Because she's speaking to that young female again. You know, Taylor's now 34 years old, so she's obviously not speaking to that person.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So. So actually she's older than that, but we went to look to buy tickets to do a contest, and they were $3,500 each.

[B]

Holy crap. That's nuts.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

And 85% of people are living paycheck to paycheck right now.

[A]

Absolutely. And right now, there's parents that are doing everything they can. I mean, I know Google's very smart, but for whatever reason, I still get the text messages and the Instagram DMS people wanted me to get them Taylor tickets. And would you have her do a video for my birthday? And I'm like, somebody please let Google know it's not me. Former Former manager. But it's interesting to see the extent that people will go to. To get two tickets like they were going to different countries because the shows were cheaper at ticket price than they.

[B]

Wow. That's nuts.

[A]

Yeah. Crazy, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, yeah, here, let's go to Wembley Stadium. And it's less than if we were going to the Hard Rock in Miami.

[B]

Yeah. What's that differentiating factor with those artists that have such a rabid fan base? You think? What is it you think they do?

[A]

They have grown up with their audience. I think they. Their audience feels connected to them. I think they feel like they've been on this journey, whether it be Taylor, Beyonce, Lady Gaga, Ed Sheeran, you know, it's like there's not a big difference, talent wise, I think, sometimes between the A lister and the superstar. So what's the difference? I think it's the business acumen. I think it's really understanding who your audience is. You don't leave anything up to chance. I think the. The biggest stars. Jay Z does not become a billionaire because he's not strategic in his thinking.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Taylor does not become a billionaire because she's not strategic in her thinking. Whether you like her voice or like her or whatever the case may be, you can't knock her big business acumen because she has opened up so many opportunities for other artists to now own their masters. That's a conversation that she started the fight with. She went direct to AMC and offered them her tour video. Instead of going through a studio paying a percentage, she went direct. And now all of a sudden, other people are like, oh, we can do that.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

You know, so it's like, those are business acumen people. Kanye, business acumen. Love him or hate him, he's a businessman, you know, and. And that's what I think is the biggest difference right now. And then when you also make your business your fan base and you're creating music for your fan base, you're not chasing. You're saying, this is who they are. This is what I do for them. This is how I show my appreciation to them. This is how I let them in on everything that I do. Game changer. And that's what I'm trying to teach independent artists and also business owners. It's like we're so sometimes focused on who we don't have. We haven't even learned to love on the people we got. They all want your million plus following on Instagram, but they don't know how to message back. The 30 people that send them messages this week, 100%. You see what I'm saying? They just want. They see what you have and they're like, well, Sean's got it. You know, I. I should have it. No, Sean knows how to handle it. Sean's got systems and processes in place to make sure that things don't get overlooked. Yeah, they don't want to think about that business side of it. They just. Ray Daniels, I brought him up to you before. He has the God's podcast. He's brilliant. He says people pray for opportunities, they don't prepare for opportunities. And there's a lot of people praying and a lot less preparation going on. And that's where I think sometimes creatives, they see that it can be achieved, they see that it's available and they want to start there.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They don't know the journey it took.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

To get there. I mean, you've been building businesses, you know, you just didn't wake up one day and go, hey, look, I have all this now.

[B]

Everything's been a snowball effect. Yeah.

[A]

What was your first snowball? What, what got your snowball started?

[B]

Gary Vee watching his videos. But that was eight years ago in my college dorm room, and that's got.

[A]

Me going, what does Gary teach social media do?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not what you know, it's what you do. You did something with what you learned. You know how many people listen to Gary Vee that are still flat ass broke and haven't done anything?

[B]

Yeah, a lot.

[A]

Most of them, honestly, you are the outlier. You are the person that says, wait a minute, he's kind of laid out this road map. He's like, content, content, content. As we're recording this, you've been going all day. You know, most people won't do one a week.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You did more in one day than most podcasters are going to do in the next few months. So. But that's the thing. That's business acumen. That's what makes you a superstar in the podcast world and not just a podcaster because you think different. And if everyone thought like you, we would have more of you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But we don't. I thought my buddy was pulling my leg when he said, hey, would you like to be on this podcast? Like, that's way out of my league. That's. I. I'm. That I was like. And then I'm sitting there and now here we are having this conversation. I'm just like, okay, this is interesting. You know, this is an opportunity for me to learn from you because of what you have been able to do.

[B]

I love how you simplified it. But yeah, it really comes down to that. And I get asked every day how to get more followers. You probably get asked every day how to get more view and that's the wrong mindset.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know?

[A]

Yeah. I always ask, how can I serve who I have? Because you know what they'll go get me?

[B]

Right.

[A]

More followers.

[B]

You got to provide value first once.

[A]

And once, you know, and this is what people forget. Once you have value, then you start using the technology and the tools that are available to you to speed up this process.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like Facebook and Instagram ads. People are like, I don't want to run ads. I'm like, wait a minute, I can go get you to watch 15 minutes of me or 15 seconds of me for a penny. They're like, what? I'm like, yes. Learn what's out there and what's available to you. And I was like, think of it like this. Everything that comes across your social media feed when they push play, they chose you. I call it chosen marketing. They chose you out of all the stuff. Whatever it did intrigued them to want to push play. Now what are your go. What are you going to do? You're just going to be excited because you got quarter of a million video views. Are you going to go retarget everyone who gave you those quarter of a million video views and turn them on to another piece of content? Yeah, because are you going to control the rabbit hole or are you going to let YouTube control the rabbit hole? Are you going to control the the for you page or are you going to let tick tock control the for you page? So that's what I try to share with people. You know, they're arguing now. It's like technology's ruining everything. I'm like, no technology. Every. I can't say every. But we can have this conversation when something comes along. The reason it usually comes along is for speed. Think about the car, think about email, think about cell phones. Hell, a payphone. Payphone is faster than having to wait till you got home. You find a payphone, microwaves, AI, social media, zoom. All these bits of technology that everyone fights. They've come along to speed up something because we live in. In an impatient society.

[B]

Very.

[A]

So grasp that. You know, the plane that you took to get here, which allowed me the opportunity to not have to go to Vegas. We use technology, the cameras that we're using to film this. No one's here having to sketch and say, here are the pictures of what Sean looked like at a profile and Rick looked like in a profile. And here's the notes of the conversation that they had. You know, it's like there's so many cool things, but a lot of older artists speaking on the music side, they fight it, they don't want it. And I'm like, shame on.

[B]

You gotta adapt. And I know a lot of people in your industry are against AI, but you're actually for.

[A]

Oh, it depends on what you're using AI for. If you're using AI to help you write songs, to me, that's no different than having a co writer that's helping you write a song. Because you have to feed the prompt. It does. You don't turn it on and a song pops out. You have to tell it what it is that you want. But I don't even use it for that. I use it more for. Give me 10 podcast ideas for a struggling musician that they would find interesting. I use it to go back to the beginner's mindset because I've been doing this for so long. I got. I was guilty of over talking my audience. I had all this cool new stuff because I spend tens of thousands of dollars staying in touch with what's going on in the digital marketing world. And I would come back and it was just going to go over. So I said, wait a minute, I have a book that's almost finished called Music Business for Parents. So I said, what are things that a parent would want to know when starting out, when they realize? And it's gives me some ideas? I go, okay, that one's crap. This was great. Let's go deeper on this. Hey, if I wanted to make this the best book ever, what additional resources? Now I can spend hours and hours and hours of going on Google and it's no different than me typing it into Google. The difference is I'm typing it in to something that has access to the whole interweb to be able to come back and say, this might be interesting. Okay, I like that. Let's go deeper. Hey, here's the lyrics to my psalm. What emotions do you find from this? And write me five social media hooks that tap into that emotion.

[B]

That's cool.

[A]

Boom, boom, boom. Now, are they all going to be perfect? No, but that's what I use it for. I. I use it to help me outline books. I use it to help me outline courses. Yeah, I use it for a lot of different reasons, but once again, I use it for speed. I use it for speed. The way that we record music. No One's using reel to reel anymore. Why we're using pro tools. You go in and grab a synthesized sound. Is that cheating? No. You want to go in and have go buy a beat from someone and you sing over it. Was that cheating? No, that's utilizing technology. That beat maker could upload his beats to a place that you could go, hear it, like it, license it, not have to record that music yourself. You live in the middle of nowhere and you don't have producers. But some of the best producers in the world are putting their beats up on places like beat stars. And now you have the ability to work with a badass producer and you didn't have to travel to his town, you didn't have to pay the studio time, you didn't have to pay anything. You get the finished product. So technology and I'm all about, all about it.

[B]

Yeah. You just spit out so much gold. Going back to the ads real quick.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I wanted to give this actionable advice because I get a lot of questions about how to grow a podcast. Yeah, I wouldn't have been able to get big guests without running ads because no one's going to go on your show if you're getting 100 views. So I spent tens of thousands of dollars on YouTube ads to get some of the videos to a million views. Hundreds of thousands of views. So that's a good hack for people watching this and then going back to the AI dude. Every time I go to a new city, I ask Chat GBT for 50 interesting podcast guests. I have an email script that it generates and I email all their managers, PR teams.

[A]

Done.

[B]

That's how I get my guests.

[A]

It's done. And, and the thing is, is it can do so much. I mean it's like so artists, sometimes they fight social media and I think they fight social media because they don't understand what it is. It was just, it's a, it's a engagement tool. It's just a tool. I don't sell on social media. I give value to where people want to go someplace else to know what it is that I'm selling. I sell through email. You know, it's like I, I want you to, I'll, I'll do. And this is for any business owner. Go and type in, go to chat GPT and say what are the 10 biggest complaints about whatever business that you're in? You do one minute videos on complaint number one. Make it a 10 part series. The 10 biggest complaints in the automotive industry. Boom. You lay it will give it to you you make it fit your thing, go talk to the camera, talk about it. Hey, and if you want the other nine, just comment the word once again. AI. It's a keyword. AI is comment the word free. And then you set it up to hit a landing page. They give you the email, you send them the stuff they wanted. And then you put together an email nurture sequence, solve four or five more problems, and then at the end say, hey, if I was able to do this to you with four emails, imagine what I could do if I had an hour of your time. I've got 10 calls, I'm doing 10 one on one interviews. Here's my calendar. Charge whatever your hourly rate is, and you'll make a thousand, two thousand dollars solving people's problems. And it was their idea to come to you because you provided value to them first.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

I mean, it's just, it's, it's simple. But people are, I mean, and, and like Gary, mad props. I wish I would have known you were a big Gary Vee fan. I bought all his shoes. You know, I'm a, I'm 32 years sober, but I subscribed to his empathy wines when he had it to give to my buddies. You know, it's like I wanted to support whatever he did because I wanted him to continue to provide value, you know, because it provided value to me in a way. When I met him, we were joking because people will say to me, they're like, dude, you're like the Gary V of the music industry. And I didn't know how to take that at first. I said, why? They said, because you're solution based. You don't let anybody wallow in their. But you don't say you're wrong. You're like, you're wrong. Here's why and here's something. You can try to fix it. I always try to be that. Solutions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Base person.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

Because there's so many negative people that will go, you can't do it. Why? Well, I don't know. You can't do it. Don't listen to that person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? It's like sometimes we, we're listening to the wrong people. We were joking about Clubhouse. You know, those are the days. Oh man. I would go in and just call BS on all people pretending to be these music business gurus.

[B]

There's a lot of those.

[A]

Everybody could hide behind an icon.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you could put whatever your accolades were and nobody was searching. They were just so lonely because they were at home from COVID They just wanted to talk to anybody. And I would go on and I would just. I would. I would pop in and people would see my thing. Oh, let's bring Rick up. And I go, yeah. By the way, not to cause problems, but that's. You know what I mean? It's like, you're. You're one of the reasons that things are wrong with the music industry, because people prey on independent artists. And I would go out and, you know, I did my best to try to protect. Yeah.

[B]

What do you think the downfall of Clubhouse was? Because Twitter space is killing it.

[A]

Yeah. I think the downfall of Clubhouse was, once again, there was no barrier to entry. It was like, you got an invite, you could get on, you could pretend to be whoever you were. I. Somebody had reached out to me and said, hey, I need. Can I have one of your tokens to get this guy on? I'm like, sure, whatever. So I give him a token, and the next thing you know, people are reaching out to me going, hey, this guy's scamming me. And I saw that you're the one who brought him into Clubhouse. And I went and I looked, I reached out to Clubhouse. I'm like, get my name off this guy's thing.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

You know, I would go on and call this person out. Hey, if this person's saying, I. I did not. I. I explained exactly how I went about doing it. But I think Clubhouse served its purpose once again. It got a massive valuation, and it just. Once, Covet ended. Everybody went back to YouTube. They went back to their normal lives, but it served a purpose.

[B]

For a while, I thought it'd be like the next big thing.

[A]

Everybody did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People built up big followings there.

[A]

They built up massive followings, but once again, did they know how to take them from Clubhouse to a platform that they own? And that's the biggest thing. You know, it's like, I. There's. So I'll. I'll help artists run ads, and there's options. I can go get a lot of clicks. I can go tier two, tier three countries. For those of you that don't understand tier one or usa, Australia, Canada, you know, it's going to be a little bit more pricey in those areas. Then we have countries like Brazil and Mexico. Love music. They'll click. Then you've got your tier threes you want to stay away from. You can get. It's like when you go to somebody's Instagram page and they have one video that's got a Million views and the next one has 930. They bought a whole bunch of. Yeah, Palestinian, you know, wherever. Just don't do that. Okay. It's just. Yeah, that's the worst. Be okay with slow growth, it will create careers.

[B]

Messes up your engagement too. Because the retention rate is the algorithm these days.

[A]

Well, and the thing is, is the algorithm is going to say, ok, okay, everything. Rick Post will start it in Bangladesh. Well then the person I really need to see it never gets to see it. So. So what I do is I always do higher intent. You know, it's like I send them to a place where I'm going to take a shot by giving something of value to get that email.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because once I get the email, I can start building the real relationship.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, I do a lot of Instagram live. I love going live on Instagram. I tell people when they ask about Taylor, they're like, why isn't, you know, Beyonce and Taylor have to be on? I said, trust me, if we were starting over today, Taylor would be on Instagram every night going live. Oh, she would have ate it up. All these tools today. I mean we had only, we only had MySpace when we started.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Everybody was our friend, you know, it's like so we had to really. She would have loved. I don't say she'd love, but in my opinion, 16 year old Taylor would have loved being able to go live and perform every single night to a worldwide audience. Think about that. That's, that's what I tell people. You want a venue, open up your phone, put it on a tripod, go live. Worldwide venue. You want to talk to people, talk to them. You want to bring them up, bring them up. Why would I bring them up? Because then their friends are going to get notified that they're live and now you're going to introduce yourself to their friends and you didn't even have to do nothing but bring them up and act like you gave a right. I mean it's like the Tools. Oh my God, I love them.

[B]

Were you Taylor's first manager?

[A]

So I was technically her second manager, but I was her first manager when she released her record and went into that situation. My background is in radio, so I did radio for 15 years in Santa Barbara. All I ever wanted to do, I created the first ever radio tour where artists actually got paid. That ended up putting me on the radar.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

Of the record companies. I always tell people, it's like if you can solve other people's problems, my goodness, does it open up Absolutely. And that was a problem. So I helped break a bunch of artists from the early, you know, 2000s and ended up being offered a job to work for a record company. And at that record company, they had a 15 year old that no one had heard of yet, and they said, take her and teach her the music business. Take her out on this radio tour that you have created. And she didn't have a manager at the time. And we clicked. I mean, it was. It was one of those things. It's like I wanted to teach, she wanted to learn. Neither one of us had done this before, so we weren't set in the ways of other artists and other managers. And after our, you know, 30 days together, they would call every night wanting to solve the world's problems. And they're in Nashville, I'm in California, and finally I call the label and I'm like, you got to go get them a manager, man. They're wearing me out. And they went, and all the big managers said no. And some of the other managers, maybe they didn't want a teenager, maybe they didn't want to deal with parents. Who knows why they said no. They didn't understand the Internet were some of the reasons why. So they called and said, hey. I said, how's the hunt coming? And they're like, that's why we're calling. And I said, okay. And they said, what would you say if I told you Taylor wanted you to be her manager? I said I would say no. What do you mean you would say no? I said, I've never managed anyone. They're like, look, we're not hiring you for your management experience. You think different. You believe in her. You're willing to take risks, you're willing to try things. That's what we need right now. We don't need somebody that's just gonna set, you know, do the same things that everyone else is doing. Because I used to always tell her, I'm like, hey, if you want the same results as everyone else, do what everyone else is doing. And right now, they're failing right now. It's like the industry has shifted. There's a change coming, and what are you going to do with it? And it was great. So they offered me the job to be your manager. And I would drive from Santa Barbara to Nash to la, catch a plane, land at Nashville, catch a bus.

[B]

That's a far flat tour for four.

[A]

Days, go back home. And I did that for two years.

[B]

Damn. Every week. Yeah.

[A]

My last year with her, I was gone 187 days. And I had a 4 year old and a 2 year old at the time, and I had gotten up to like £300. And I was just like, all right, God, what's the plan? You know, I'm going to see more money than I've ever seen in my life. In January that year, I would have become an instant millionaire. And I was like, at what expense? Now, I grew up with divorced parents. I grew up poor, so I never made money decisions because it's never an option that I had as a kid growing up. But I also knew what divorce that. That impact that had on me. And I called her and I said, listen, I'll forever be grateful. I'll always be one of your biggest fans. I said, but my family and my kids are the most important thing. So.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I gave my notice, worked through part of 2008 for her, and then told my wife. I said, listen, I said, I want to move the kids to Nashville. I said, I want them raised in the south where manners aren't an option. I said, I want no state income tax, and I'd love to get twice the house for half the money.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

And it checked all the boxes. And then a very interesting situation happened at that point is that I didn't have a job. I'd been paid severance, and that was running out. And I got a phone call from who at the time was the most powerful person in Nashville. And his assistant said, joe would like to meet with you. When is the next time that you're going to be in Nashville? And I thought I'd done something wrong because Joe Galani was the most powerful. Scott Borchetta, who I worked for, a big machine, was number two. Two totally different styles. You know, most people didn't go from one of their labels to the other. One came from a sales background, one came from a promotion background. Both amazing guys. I was blessed to be able to learn from both. And when I lost, left the job, I was doing some work for a couple of his clients, and I thought I did something wrong. I said, can I ask why Joe wants to meet? She says, he just thinks it's time you and him got to know each other. So I flew to Nashville a week ahead of the family coming out, and I met with Joe. And he said, listen. He says not to take anything away from Scott and Taylor. He said, but my team saw what you did with her. They saw the way she responded to you. They saw your crazy ideas. They saw you out in meet and greet lines for three and a Half hours and the first person up in the morning and the last person. And the lesson is, there is one. You never know who's watching, right? You know, you never know who's watching. And he said, listen, he says, I think you would fit perfect with what I'm looking for at Sony. He said, I would love to offer you a job as a consultant. So I excused myself and I went to the restroom and I pulled out my BlackBerry. We didn't have iPhones then. And I call my wife and I said, go on Yahoo. We didn't have Google. I said, type in, what does a consultant do? I said, I'm being offered this job and I have no idea what it does. And she laughs like you did. And she's like, well, it looks like they advise at areas of expertise and they can get paid really well. And I immediately accepted the position as a consultant and did that for almost three and a half years for them while consult. Because then other people would call and go, hey, I understand you're a consultant. I'm like, why, yes, I am. You know? And they were like, what is. What do you pay? And this. I. I had my numbers down. I had the whole system down. But what I started seeing was there were just way too many things that I was screwed because I thought like a manager, but now I'm working at a label and I'm pro artist, but I'm also pro label. And I'm seeing a lot of things are happening at the label that aren't beneficial to the artist. And I'm like, how do I say something? Because I'm friends with these artists, I'm friends with these managers. This employer is now paying me to do this right? So I ended up realizing that if I wanted to be the most effective that I could be, I needed to start educating artists before they got their record deal and educating new managers before they got the record deal to be able to go in and make sure that they were a business that. Because the record companies today, they're not in the startup mode anymore. They're in the acquiring businesses that are already working. They already want to see streams, they already want to see ticket sales. They. The. The tools are available for anyone to do it. They want to see, are we going to invest in someone who's already doing it, who's already using those tools. We don't have time to start someone from scratch.

[B]

Takes too long, right?

[A]

It takes way too long. It's very risky. They're not designed for that. They're not designed to help an Artist, grow a fan base, right? They're designed to throw gasoline on the fire you've already created. So now you can come in and become a business partner with the label and not an employee. Employees have no decision making power. Business partners do. You're able to write a better deal for yourself. You're able to come in with momentum that they can keep rolling. It's hard to start the wheel. It's easy once the wheel gets rolling. So that's what I'm trying to do is help those that want to go that route be something that's attractive to them. Those that want to remain independent, keep 100% creative control, keep the bigger piece of the pie, do things when they want to do things. I'm also teaching them how to do that, how to stay independent, how to be your first record company, your first manager, your first publisher. Teach them those business sides. And I'm able to teach thousands of people all over the world because of technology, because of the Internet.

[B]

Love it.

[A]

You know, I make courses, I do. If there's a problem, I'll talk about it, create it, put it out there, load up someone's toolbox. Then it's up to them to use the tools.

[B]

Yeah, Love that, man. What a story.

[A]

Use the tools.

[B]

Holy crap. Did you watch the Taylor Swift Scooter Braun documentary?

[A]

I've. I've watched all her documentaries. I also wish that I didn't care as much about what was going on with Scooter because I didn't have a personal relationship with Scooter. But I did. I did feel something as the fans were turning on Scott Borchetta because they were perfect for each other really. Scott gave her. So she was signed to Sony Music before she was signed to Big Machine Records. A lot of people don't remember that Scott was the one who gave her the opportunity to write her own music and write her own record. You know, people forget that part of it. Taylor put his label on the map. They were perfect. What happened there for each other?

[B]

What happened with that relationship?

[A]

Well, that relationship came. Her deal was coming to an end, you know, and she wanted, she got.

[B]

Offered more money somewhere else.

[A]

Yeah, a lot more. And the ability to own her masters and the ability to do a lot of different things. You know, it's like that happened, happens, but you know, they were. People say, people were saying things like, you know, it's like never blame the label. If an artist signs a bad record deal, blame your attorney. Okay. Because you don't have to sign it. And the label is the bank. And the label is going to do everything it can to protect the bank. And the label is taking all the financial risk in the beginning. So the label deals that they were signing were pretty standard at that time. And that's the deal. And then once you recoup, which means you get. So do you mind if I explain how a quick record deal works?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Okay. So the record company, I give you a hundred thousand dollars and I say, okay, here's your hundred thousand dollars. That's your advance. I'm also gonna. We're gonna spend 200, 000 on a record. We're gonna spend 50, 000 for a video. So now you're responsible for that was.

[B]

It's like a loan.

[A]

It's recoupable. Yes. Now, the deal I just signed with you is an 8515 deal. So for every dollar that comes in, I keep 85. You get 15.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the problem is you have to pay back your loan to me out of your 15.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

Not out of the 85. Oh, wow. You see what I'm saying? So it's not. The dollar doesn't pay back the loan. Your 15 cents.

[B]

So that would take time.

[A]

It does. And so it's almost like for every. I don't know the exact math, but people would say for every 200 it costs you, you have to make a million to be able to pay back whatever it is. You're the crypto.

[B]

No, that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah. You, You've got the number thing, but yeah, you're only paying it back off your 15. Now, one, not many artists recoup. It's really hard because the label can spend and you're responsible for it, and most are. Well, she had already recouped multiple times with what had happened, so she was always able to go in and, you know, renegotiate.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

I just, I just wish that. It was just sad to see because they did some very special things together and there's stuff that went on behind closed doors that I'm not privy to. Yeah, it doesn't matter to me. I just. When people would come to me asking whose side I would take, I said, I'm not going to take a side. I'm going to use this as an opportunity to educate on what that situation was. Scott needed to sell something. It was more valuable with Taylor attached to it. And Scooter was a smart businessman and came in and took that opportunity. It's business, right? It's business. But then all of a sudden, you know, you turn the swifties loose and they're all making death threats and all kinds of crazy things that are happening. You wouldn't believe the crap I get sometimes. People are, who's this Rick Barker guy? I'm like Google, you know, it's like, it's like that's part of my story. You know, I take zero credit for anything that Taylor did because Taylor ended up having to do it the same way Gary Vee can't take credit for what you did because he said the same thing to millions of people. You chose to do it.

[B]

Good point.

[A]

I say the same thing to thousands of artists. She chose to do it. You know, because I, I'm a firm believer if I'm going to take all the credit, then do I have to take all the credit for the people that didn't have success with what I taught?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Can't be picking and choosing. Absolutely everything's. So I'm just like, hey, I gave some people some information, they did something with it. Congratulations to them. If you'd like me to give you that same information, awesome. But I can't guarantee anyone anything. It just doesn't work that way.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And everybody wants guarantees. And trust me, if anybody's guaranteeing you anything, run. Yeah, they're not legit.

[B]

It's a red flag for me when someone asks, what can you guarantee?

[A]

I can guarantee that I'll do the best I can to provide you the content that you need. You know what I mean? That's all I can guarantee. I can only guarantee me showing up, me doing the work. It's like I have a this thing called office hours. And every Monday, 3:00, artists that are in my community come and ask me questions specific to their business. It's like me being a virtual manager for thousands of people without having to physically take on their day to day responsibilities because the manager couldn't do it. So they ask a question, they're like, so what am I going to get when I become part of your program? I say, you're going to get me showing up. When I say I'm going to show up, I will get you the answer to your question either from my own Rolodex or I will help you find the problem and find the answer. Because my job wants to teach you to fish. I don't want to fish for you, but if I can't get you the answer, I will get you to the answer.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

That's my only promise that I could promise someone. I can't determine who's going to like your music. I can't determine which part of the algorithm that is going to release it to the right person or whatever the case. I can't control any of that. The only thing I can control is me showing up and being present at that moment, you know, at that time.

[B]

Boom. Rick, closing thoughts. And where can people learn from you and get in touch with you?

[A]

Just hit me up on Instagram at Rick Barker Music. Head on over to my website. You know, if you want to grab a free copy of my book or anything like that, it's. And if, you know, you feel that you might want to spend an hour with me to learn something, there's ways we can do that as well. But, you know, first off, just thank you for allowing me the opportunity to just share me. You know, my whole goal in life is to encourage people to seek the answers. You know, it's like there's no there. You can get it today. There's no shortage of it. And, yeah, DM me on Instagram, let me know that you found me here on. On Sean's podcast. And, you know, let's. Let's pop it up. You got your own shoes, too?

[B]

Yes, sir. Custom shoes, baby.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Got a brand, everything. Got the mic flags? Got the back on.

[A]

No, you. No, you're doing it right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. If you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

[B]

27.

[A]

God, I wish that's how I feel.

[B]

About, like, 18.

[A]

Yeah. I'm 57.

[B]

You got young energy.

[A]

Well, I. What it is, is that, like I said, I've been sober for a long time. I just. I'm passionate about people. And I see you're also passionate about people. And it's like you found a way to provide for yourself, but in a way that helps other people. And when you lead with a servant's mentality, you will always win. And that's what you're doing by allowing people like myself to be a guest on your podcast, by allowing us to. To share our stories. You know, my story is I didn't graduate high school. I didn't go to college. You know, not by choice. I got addicted to drugs at a young age, and Fortunate got sober. And one thing led me to another, and I tell people that I'm like, look, your past does not define your future. I went from being homeless, on the streets, addicted to crack cocaine, to launching one of the biggest stars in the world, so save your excuses for somebody else. You know, But I also tell people that, as I say, I share that for two reasons. One is that don't give up on somebody who may be struggling with an addiction, you know? And number two is don't use that as an excuse, because no one has ever asked me for a resume. No one has ever asked me where I went to college. No one has ever asked me anything like that. They said, I saw you were able to do this for this person. Can you do it for me? Show up every day, kick ass, and people will notice what's going on, and the right opportunities will come your way.

[B]

I love that. We'll let it there. Man, that was so powerful. Perfect brother, man.

[A]

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

[B]

Absolutely. Thanks for watching, guys. See you next time.