How to Build a Rabid Fan Base Without a Record Label | Rick Barker DSH #958

Summary

Digital Social Hour Podcast Summary Episode Title: How to Build a Rabid Fan Base Without a Record Label | Rick Barker DSH #958
Release Date: December 7, 2024
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Rick Barker

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Introduction

In this episode of the Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly welcomes Rick Barker to discuss navigating the music industry without the backing of a traditional record label. Rick Barker, renowned for managing Taylor Swift during her early career, shares invaluable insights on building a dedicated fan base, leveraging technology, and understanding the intricate dynamics of the modern music business.

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Navigating the Music Industry Without a Record Label

Rick Barker kicks off the conversation by addressing the inherent challenges within the music industry, emphasizing its "wild, wild west" nature due to the absence of gatekeepers.

Rick Barker [02:39]: "Music's the greatest business, the most complicated business. You can't throw money at it to fix it."

He highlights the importance of building genuine relationships with a small audience before scaling up, advising artists to "crawl before we walk, walk before we run."

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Building and Engaging a Fan Base in a Digital Age

Sean and Rick delve into the dynamics of modern music consumption, where short attention spans can be detrimental to long-term success.

Rick Barker [04:03]: "We live in a three second world, a six second world."

Rick stresses the necessity of nurturing a connection beyond fleeting interactions. He emphasizes moving from passive listening to active engagement, guiding fans from brief exposures to meaningful interactions:

Rick Barker [04:59]: "The problem is, we rely so much on what I call rental property... We need to get them to the restaurant you own, which is your website."

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The Role of Business Acumen in Music Success

A pivotal point in the discussion revolves around the idea that talent alone isn't sufficient for monumental success. Rick argues that business savvy differentiates A-list artists from superstars.

Rick Barker [10:22]: "They have grown up with their audience. Their audience feels connected to them."

He cites Taylor Swift as an example of an artist who leveraged business acumen to gain greater control, such as owning her masters and directly negotiating deals:

Rick Barker [10:58]: "Taylor does not become a billionaire because she's not strategic in her thinking. You can't knock her big business acumen."

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Leveraging Technology and AI for Growth

The conversation shifts to the pivotal role of technology and artificial intelligence in scaling a music career. Rick advocates for embracing these tools to enhance efficiency and creativity.

Rick Barker [18:05]: "If you're using AI to help you write songs, to me, that's no different than having a co-writer."

He shares practical uses of AI, like generating podcast ideas and social media hooks, to maintain a consistent and engaging presence:

Rick Barker [19:46]: "I use it to help me outline books. I use it to help me outline courses."

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Rick Barker's Personal Journey and Managing Taylor Swift

Rick recounts his experience managing Taylor Swift, highlighting the blend of passion and professionalism required to guide a young artist to superstardom. Despite initial inexperience, Rick's dedication and innovative approaches earned him significant success, albeit at personal costs.

Rick Barker [30:56]: "I didn't have a manager at the time. And after our 30 days together, they would call every night wanting to solve the world's problems."

He underscores the importance of preparation and seizing opportunities:

Rick Barker [13:14]: "People pray for opportunities, they don't prepare for opportunities."

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Understanding Record Deals and Artist Economics

A critical segment of the episode focuses on demystifying record deals and the financial implications for artists. Rick explains the common pitfalls, such as recoupable advances and unfavorable profit splits:

Rick Barker [39:07]: "You have to pay back that money. That was like a loan. It's recoupable."

He advocates for artists to understand the terms thoroughly and negotiate better deals to retain more control and earnings.

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Strategies for Independent Artists and Business Owners

Rick offers actionable strategies for independent artists and business owners to grow their presence and revenue without relying solely on traditional platforms:

1. Provide Value First: Focus on serving your existing audience before seeking to expand.
2. Utilize Technology and Ads: Leverage platforms like Facebook and Instagram ads to reach targeted audiences cost-effectively.
3. Content Consistency: Emphasize regular content creation to maintain engagement and attract new listeners.
4. Build Direct Relationships: Move audiences from social media to owned platforms like websites and email lists for deeper connections.

Rick Barker [21:03]: "Use the technology and the tools that are available to you to speed up this process."

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Reflecting on Technology Platforms: Clubhouse vs Twitter Spaces

The discussion touches on the rise and fall of platforms like Clubhouse and the enduring popularity of Twitter Spaces. Rick attributes Clubhouse's decline to the lack of barriers to entry, which led to issues like impersonation and loss of control over content authenticity.

Rick Barker [24:05]: "The downfall of Clubhouse was... there was no barrier to entry."

He contrasts this with strategies to maintain authenticity and control over one's audience across different platforms.

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Closing Thoughts and Actionable Takeaways

In his closing remarks, Rick emphasizes the importance of persistence, continuous learning, and utilizing available tools to sustain and grow a music career. He encourages artists to seek information, stay adaptable, and focus on building meaningful relationships with their audience.

Rick Barker [42:46]: "There's no shortage of it [information]. DM me on Instagram, let me know that you found me here on Sean's podcast."

Rick also shares his commitment to providing value through courses, virtual management, and direct mentorship, empowering artists to take control of their destinies.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Rick Barker [04:03]: "We live in a three second world, a six second world."
• Rick Barker [10:22]: "They have grown up with their audience. Their audience feels connected to them."
• Rick Barker [18:05]: "If you're using AI to help you write songs, to me, that's no different than having a co-writer."
• Rick Barker [39:07]: "You have to pay back that money. That was like a loan. It's recoupable."
• Rick Barker [21:03]: "Use the technology and the tools that are available to you to speed up this process."
• Rick Barker [42:46]: "There's no shortage of it. DM me on Instagram..."

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Actionable Takeaways

1. Build Genuine Relationships: Start with a small, dedicated audience before scaling up.
2. Embrace Technology: Utilize AI and digital tools to enhance efficiency and creativity.
3. Understand Financials: Grasp the intricacies of record deals to negotiate better terms.
4. Provide Continuous Value: Focus on serving your current audience to foster loyalty and growth.
5. Leverage Direct Platforms: Move your audience from third-party platforms to owned channels like websites and email lists.
6. Stay Adaptable: Keep up with technological advancements and platform changes to maintain relevance.

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Connect with Rick Barker

• Instagram: Rick Barker Music
• Website: Rick Barker’s Official Website (Grab a free copy of his book)
• Email: Reach out via his website for consultations or to join his programs.

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This episode provides a comprehensive guide for independent artists aspiring to build a dedicated fan base without traditional record label support. Rick Barker's blend of personal experience and strategic insights offers listeners a roadmap to navigate the complexities of the music industry effectively.

Transcript

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[Rick Barker]

Everything that comes across your social media feed when they push play, they chose you out of all the stuff. Whatever it did intrigue them to want to push play. You're just going to be excited because you got quarter of a million video views. Are you going to go retarget everyone who gave you those quarter of a million video views and turn them on to another piece?

[Sean]

All right, guys, Rick Barker here. We're going to talk the music industry today. I haven't had someone in your space, man, I'm excited.

[Rick Barker]

Oh wow, thanks. Well, I appreciate you having me. In general, I mean, everything that you're doing right now, you're touching a lot of pieces of content throughout the globe. And that's, that's what I love. It's like you find these podcasts, you're like, you need to be about this in order to do this. And you've totally proved everyone wrong. You're like, yeah, I can just go out, have interesting conversations with people and people want that.

[Sean]

I don't niche down because you could learn something from every niche and apply it to your business.

[Rick Barker]

I agree.

[Sean]

Yeah. So I'd love to hear how you penetrated one of the toughest industries, which in my opinion is the music industry.

[Rick Barker]

Yeah, it's, it's interesting because I tell people that want to come into it, I'm like, you're trying to function in a dysfunctional business because the consumer does not have to pay for the product.

[Sean]

Right.

[Rick Barker]

And think about any other business. If the consumer, it's like going to Costco, try the sample, say, oh, I like this, just take it and leave. How long would that company or Costco be in business? And that's kind of what's happening with the, with the music business. It's, it's the wild, wild west in a way because there's no, there's no gatekeepers. Everybody can upload music. My mother in law could upload music if she wanted to and shoot a video and start an Instagram channel and get in the way. There's just a lot of noise. So my goal since leaving Taylor has been to help independent artists and other creatives in general just say, look, let's go find you an audience. Let's go build a relationship with a small group of people first and then get bigger. Everybody wants the big thing first. Most people wouldn't know how to handle the big thing first, you know, so we try to crawl before we walk, walk before we run. But yeah, music's the greatest business, the most complicated business. You can't throw money at it to fix it. There is no do A, B and C and D happens. It's no two artists career paths have ever been the same.

[Sean]

Right.

[Rick Barker]

It's, it's interesting.

[Sean]

And these days with everyone's short attention span, you're only remembered for your last hit.

[Rick Barker]

Oh my gosh, if that, you know, it's, it's. We live in a three second world, a six second world. And I was telling an artist one day, they were so creatives musician. It's all about the art. They're like, why are these tick tock people? And I said, look, there's people that you know the sound but you wouldn't know the artist if they were riding in the car with you. You just know the song. You just know that hook. You just know whatever. I said if you want to build a career, then you're going to have to slow down a little bit. You're going to have to take that person who saw you for six seconds and then how do we get them to watch a minute and then how do we get them to watch a Three minute video. And then how do we get them to listen to a song? How do we get them to give you an email? It's, it's all be happy that all the tools and resources are available for you to get someone's attention in a world where everyone wants their attention and that they took the time to choose you that day.

[Sean]

Right.

[Rick Barker]

The problem is, is that we rely so much on what I call rental property. Like Spotify's rental property, Instagram's rental property, YouTube's rental property. I said we need to get them to the restaurant you own, which is your website. You control the esthetics, you control the content, you control everything. But you're relying on all these fake numbers and all these fake everything to validate you. We need to get you back focused on do you want to build a business? And if you want to build a business, you put the right product in front of the right person and make the right offer. It doesn't matter what business you're in. And you can't expect people just because you love it, to love it as well.

[Sean]

Yeah. So when you go on Spotify and you see some of these songs have 100 million views, like, what percentage of that you think is real?

[Rick Barker]

It really depends. A lot of it could be all of it real, but it's passive listening. And what I mean by that is that it's playing in the background. You know, if I'm listening to your podcast, that's passive listening. If I'm watching your podcast on YouTube, you. I'm now actively involved. You. I chose to be there. Sometimes your song on a playlist, someone didn't necessarily choose to hear you, but they heard you. But there's no DJs unless somebody, unless somebody heard something. So, wow, I got to see who this person is, where they actually pull their phone out, open up the app, look to see who it is. Go to the about section, click your inst. There's a lot of work that goes into that. So these people that have these million views, there's a lot of artists right now that are making 20, $30,000 a month, really, in their streaming business, but they can't sell tickets to shows because no one knows who they are. They just know they like the song and the song.

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[Rick Barker]

Happen to be on a playlist?

[Sean]

I've seen some big artists cancel their tour this year.

[Rick Barker]

A lot of them.

[Sean]

Some. Some A listers even.

[Rick Barker]

Yeah. And it. And it's sad. And I think a lot of that just has to do with one, the price of concert tickets has gotten way out of hand. It's like, what they're sold for face value and now 10 times the research. Oh, my goodness. It's absolutely.

[Sean]

Yeah, the Taylor Swift. I mean. Oh, weren't they like 500 each this year or something?

[Rick Barker]

Well, and then you go try to find tickets for her right now, you know, depending on when you're listening to this, it's going to be 3,000, $4,000 in the nosebleeds.

[Sean]

In the nose.

[Rick Barker]

They started out at 500, but by the time we get it, we were looking. I have a young artist I work with, Jordana Bryant, amazing little artist. She's this generation's version of. Because she's speaking to that young female again. You know, Taylor's now 34 years old, so she's obviously not speaking to that person.

[Sean]

Right.

[Rick Barker]

So actually she's older than that. But we went to look to buy tickets to do a contest, and they were $3,500 each.

[Sean]

Holy crap. That's nuts.

[Rick Barker]

That's crazy.

[Sean]

And 85% of people are living paycheck to paycheck right now.

[Rick Barker]

Absolutely. And right now there's parents that are doing everything they can. I mean, I know Google's very smart, but for whatever reason, I still get the text messages and the Instagram DMS people wanted me to get them tailor tickets and would you have her do a video for my birthday? And I'm like, somebody please let Google know it's not me. Former. Former manager. But it's interesting to see the extent that people will go to. To get two tickets like they were going to different countries because the shows were cheaper at ticket price than they.

[Sean]

That's nuts.

[Rick Barker]

Yeah. Crazy, right?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Rick Barker]

I'm like, yeah, here, let's go to Wembley Stadium. And it's less than if we were going to the Hard Rock in Miami.

[Sean]

Yeah. What's that differentiating factor with those artists that have such a rabid fan base? You think? What is it you think they do?

[Rick Barker]

They have grown up with their audience. I think they. Their audience feels connected to them. I think they feel like they've been on this journey, whether it be Taylor, Beyonce, Lady Gaga, Ed Sheeran, you know, it's like there's not a big difference, talent wise, I think, sometimes between the A lister and the superstar. So what's the difference? I think it's the business acumen. I think it's really understanding who your audience is. You don't leave anything up to chance. I think the. The biggest stars. Jay Z does not become a billionaire because he's not strategic in his thinking.

[Sean]

Right.

[Rick Barker]

Taylor does not become a billionaire because she's not strategic in her thinking. Whether you like her voice or like her or whatever the case may be, you can't knock her big business acumen because she has opened up so many opportunities for other artists to now own their masters. That's a conversation that she started the fight with. She went direct to AMC and offered them her tour video. Instead of going through a studio paying a percentage, she went direct. And now all of a sudden, other people are like, oh, we can do that.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Rick Barker]

You know, so it's like those are business acumen people. Kanye, business acumen. Love him or hate him, he's a businessman, you know, And. And that's what I think is the biggest difference right now. And then when you also make your business your fan base, and you're creating music for your fan base, you're not chasing. You're saying, this is who they are. This is what I do for them. This is how I show my appreciation to them. This is how I let them in on everything that I do. Game changer. And that's what I'm trying to teach independent artists and also business owners. It's like we're so sometimes focused on who we don't have. We haven't even learned to love on the people we got. They all want your million plus following on Instagram, but they don't know how to message back. The 30 people that send them messages this week, 100. You see what I'm saying? They just want. They see what you have and they're like, well, Sean's got it. You know, I. I should have it. No, Sean knows how to handle it. Sean's got systems and processes in place to make sure that things don't get overlooked. Yeah, they don't want to think about that business side of it. They just. Ray Daniels, I brought him up to you before. He has the God's podcast. He's brilliant. He says people pray for opportunities, they don't prepare for opportunities. And there's a lot of people praying and a lot less preparation going on. And that's where I think sometimes creatives, they see that it can be achieved, they see that it's available and they want to start there.

[Sean]

Yep.

[Rick Barker]

They don't know the journey it took absolutely. To get there. I mean, you've been building businesses, you know, you just didn't wake up one day and go, hey, look, I have all this now.

[Sean]

Everything's been a snowball effect. Yeah.

[Rick Barker]

What was your first snowball? What? What? Got your snowball. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. With the price of just about everything going up during inflation, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing Mint Mobile unlimited premium wireless. 30. 30.

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[Sean]

Better 20. 2020. Better to get 20. 20.

[Rick Barker]

Better to get 15. 15, 15, 15.

[Sean]

Just 15 bucks a month.

[Rick Barker]

So give it a [e-mail] switch.

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[Rick Barker]

New customers on first three month plan only.

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[Sean]

Detail started Gary Vee watching his videos, but that was eight years ago in my college dorm room. And that's what got me.

[Rick Barker]

What does Gary teach social media do? Yeah, not what you know, it's what you do. You did something with what you learned. You know how many people listen to Gary Vee that are still flat ass broke and haven't done anything?

[Sean]

Yeah, a lot.

[Rick Barker]

Most of them. Honestly, you are the outlier. You are the person that says, wait a minute. He's kind of laid out this roadmap. He's like, content, content, content. As we're recording this, you've been going all day. You know, most people won't do one a week.

[Sean]

Right.

[Rick Barker]

You did more in one day than most podcasters are going to do in the next few months. So. But that's the thing. That's business acumen. That's what makes you a superstar in the podcast world and not just a podcaster, because you think different. And if everyone thought like you, we would have more of you.

[Sean]

Right.

[Rick Barker]

But we don't. I thought my buddy was pulling my leg when he said, hey, would you like to be on this podcast? Like, that's way out of my league. That's. I, I, I'm. That I was like. And then I'm sitting there, and now here we are having this conversation. I'm just like, okay, this is interesting. You know, this is an opportunity for me to learn from you because of what you have been able to do.

[Sean]

I love how you simplified it. But, yeah, it really comes down to that. And I get asked every day how to get more followers. You probably get asked every day how to get more views, and that's the wrong mindset.

[Rick Barker]

Yeah.

[Sean]

You know?

[Rick Barker]

Yeah. I always ask, how can I serve who I have? Because you know what they'll go get me?

[Sean]

Right.

[Rick Barker]

More followers.

[Sean]

You got to provide value first, once.

[Rick Barker]

And once, you know, and this is what people forget. Once you have value, then you start using the technology and the tools that are available to you to speed up this process.

[Sean]

Right.

[Rick Barker]

Like Facebook and Instagram ads. People are like, I don't want to run ads. I'm like, wait a minute. I can go get you to watch 15 minutes of me or 15 seconds of me for a penny. They're like, what? I'm like, yes. Learn what's out there and what's available to you. And I was like, think of it like this. Everything that comes across your social media feed when they push play, they chose you. I call it chosen marketing. They chose you out of all the stuff. Whatever. It did intrigue them to want to push play. Now, what are your go. What are you going to do? You're just going to be excited because you got quarter of a million video views. Are you going to go retarget everyone who gave you those quarter of a million video views and turn them on to another piece of content? Yeah, because are you going to control the rabbit hole? Are you going to let YouTube control the rabbit Hole. Are you going to control the the for you page or are you gonna let tick tock control the for you page? So that's what I try to share with people. You know, they're arguing now. It's like technology's ruining everything. I'm like, no technology. Every. I can't say every. But we can have this conversation when something comes along. The reason it usually comes along is for speed. Think about the car, think about email, think about cell phones. Hell, a pay phone. Pay phone is faster than having to wait till you got home, you find a pay phone. Microwaves, AI, social media, zoom. All these bits of technology that everyone fights. They've come along to speed up something because we live and in an impatient society.

[Sean]

Very.

[Rick Barker]

So grasp that. You know the plane that you took to get here, which allowed me the opportunity to not have to go to Vegas, we use technology, the cameras that we're using to film this, no one's here having to sketch and say, here are the pictures of what Sean looked like at a profile and Rick looked like a profile. And here's the notes of the conversation that they had. You know, it's like there's so many cool things, but a lot of older artists speaking on the music side, they fight it, they don't want it. And I'm like, shame on you.

[Sean]

Got adapt. And I know a lot of people in your industry are against AI, but you're actually for.

[Rick Barker]

Oh, it depends on what you're using AI for. If you're using AI to help you write songs, to me, that's no different than having a co writer that's helping you write a song because you have to feed the prom. It does. You don't turn it on and a song pops out. You have to tell it what it is that you want. But I don't even use it for that. I use it more for. Give me 10 podcast ideas for a struggling musician that they would find interesting. I use it to go back to the beginner's mindset because I've been doing this for so long. I got. I was guilty of over talking my audience. I had all this cool new stuff because I spend tens of thousands of dollars staying in touch with what's going on in the digital marketing world. And I would come back and it would just kind of go over. So I said, wait a minute, I have a book that's almost finished called Music Business for Parents. So I said, what are things that a parent would want to know when starting out, when they realize that it's gives Me some ideas. I go, okay, that one's crap. This was great. Let's go deeper on this. Hey, if I wanted to make this the best book ever, what additional resources? Now I can spend hours and hours and hours of going on Google, and it's no different than me typing it into Google. The difference is I'm typing it in to something that has access to the whole interweb to be able to come back and say, this might be interesting. Okay, I like that. Let's go deeper. Hey, here's the lyrics to my song. What emotions do you find from this? And write me five social media hooks that tap into that emotion.

[Sean]

That's cool.

[Rick Barker]

Boom, boom, boom. Now, are they all going to be perfect? No. But that's what I use it for. I. I use it to help me outline books. I use it to help me outline courses. Yeah, I use it for a lot of different reasons, but once again, I use it for speed. I use it for speed. The way that we record music, no one's using reel to reel anymore. Why? We're using pro tools. You go in and grab a synthesized sound. Is that cheating? No. You want to go in and have. Go buy a beat from someone and you sing over it. Was that cheating? No, that's utilizing technology. That beat maker could upload his beats to a place that you could go, hear it, like it, license it, not have to record that music yourself. You live in the middle of nowhere and you don't have producers, but some of the best producers in the world are putting their beats up on places like beat stars. And now you have the ability to work with a badass producer. And you didn't have to travel to his town. You didn't have to pay the studio time, you didn't have to pay anything. You get the finished product. So technology. And I'm all about. All about it.

[Sean]

Yeah. You just spit out so much gold. Going back to the ads real quick. Yes, I wanted to give this actionable advice because I get a lot of questions about how to grow a podcast.

[Rick Barker]

Yep.

[Sean]

I wouldn't have been able to get big guests without running ads, because no one's going to go on your show if you're getting a hundred views. So I spent tens of thousands of dollars on YouTube ads to get some of the videos to a million views. Hundreds of thousands of views. So that's a good hack for people watching this and then going back to the AI dude, every time I go to a new city, I ask ChatGPT for 50 interesting podcast guests. I have an email script that it generates and I email all their managers, PR teams.

[Rick Barker]

Done.

[Sean]

That's how I get my guess.

[Rick Barker]

It's done. And the thing is, is it can do so much. I mean it's like so artists, sometimes they fight social media and I think they fight social media because they don't understand what it is. It was just, it's a, it's an engagement tool. It's just a tool I don't sell on social media. I give value to where people want to go someplace else to know what it is that I'm selling. I sell through email. You know, it's like I, I want you to, I'll, I'll do. And this is for any business owner. Go and type in, go to chat GPT and say, what are the 10 biggest complaints about whatever business that you're in? You do one minute videos on complaint number one. Make it a 10 part series. The 10 biggest complaints in the automotive industry. Boom. You lay it will give it to you. You make it fit your thing, Go talk to the camera, talk about it. Hey, and if you want the other nine, just comment the word once again. AI. It's a keyword. AI is comment the word free. And then you set it up to hit a landing page. They give you the email, you send them the stuff they wanted and then you put together an email nurture sequence, solve four or five more problems and then at the end say, hey, if I was able to do this to you with four emails, imagine what I could do if I had an hour of your time. I've got 10 calls, I'm doing 10 one on one interviews. Here's my calendar charge whatever your hourly rate is and you'll make a thousand, $2,000 solving people's problems. And it was their idea to come to you because you provided value to them.

[Sean]

I love that.

[Rick Barker]

I mean, it's just, it's, it's simple. But people are, I mean, and, and like Gary, mad props. I wish I would have known you were a big Gary V. Fan. I bought all his shoes. You know, I'm a, I'm 32 years sober, but I subscribed to his empathy wines when he had it to give to my buddies. You know, it's like I wanted to support whatever he did because I wanted him to continue to provide value, you know, because it provided value to me in a way. When I met him, we were joking because people will say to me, they're like, dude, you're like the Gary ve of the music industry. And I didn't know how to take that. At first I said, why? They said, because you're solution based. You don't let anybody wallow in their. But you don't say, you're wrong. You're like, you're wrong. Here's why. And here's something. You could try to fix it. I always try to be that. Solutions.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Rick Barker]

Base person.

[Sean]

That's awesome.

[Rick Barker]

Because there's so many negative people that will go, you can't do it. Why? Well, I don't know. You can't do it. Don't listen to that person.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Rick Barker]

You know what I mean? It's like sometimes we. We're listening to the wrong people. We were joking about Clubhouse, you know.

[Sean]

Those are the days.

[Rick Barker]

Oh, man. I would go in and just call BS on all the people pretending to be these music business gurus.

[Sean]

There's a lot of those.

[Rick Barker]

Everybody could hide behind an icon.

[Sean]

Right.

[Rick Barker]

And you could put whatever your accolades were. And nobody was searching. They were just so lonely because they were at home from COVID They just wanted to talk to anybody. And I would go on and I would just. I would. I would pop in and people would see my thing. Oh, let's bring Rick up. And I go, yeah, by the way, not to cause problems, but that's. You know what I mean? It's like you're. That you're one of the reasons that things are wrong with the music industry because people prey on independent artists. And I would go out and, you know, I did my best to try to protect.

[Sean]

Yeah. What do you think the downfall of Clubhouse was? Because Twitter space is killing it.

[Rick Barker]

Yeah. I think the downfall of Clubhouse was, once again, there was no barrier to entry. It was like, you got an invite, you could get on, you could pretend to be whoever you were. I. Somebody had reached out to me and said, hey, I need. Can I have one of your tokens to get this guy on? I'm like, sure, whatever. So I give them a token, and the next thing you know, people are reaching out to me going, hey, this guy's scamming me. And I saw that you're the one who brought him into Clubhouse. And I went and I looked, I reached out to Clubhouse. I'm like, get my name off this guy's thing.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Rick Barker]

You know, I would go on and call this person out. Hey, if this person's saying, I did not. I explained exactly how I went about doing it. But I think Clubhouse served its purpose once again. It got a massive valuation and it just. Once Covet ended. Everybody went back to YouTube they went back to their normal lives, but it served a purpose.

[Sean]

For a while I thought it'd be like the next big thing.

[Rick Barker]

Everybody did.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah. People built up big followings there.

[Rick Barker]

They built up massive followings, but once again, did they know how to take them from clubhouse to a platform that they own? And that's the biggest thing. You know, it's like I, there's. So I'll, I'll help artists run ads and there's options. I can go get a lot of clicks. I can go tier two, tier three countries. For those of you that don't understand tier one or usa, Australia, Canada, you know, it's going to be a little bit more pricey in those areas. Then we have countries like Brazil and Mexico. Love music. They'll click. Then you've got your tier threes you want to stay away from. You can get. It's like when you go to somebody's Instagram page and they have one video that's got a million views and the next one has 930. They bought a whole bunch of. Yeah, Palestinian, you know, wherever. Just don't do that. Okay. It's just. Yeah, that's the worst. Be okay. With slow growth, it will create careers.

[Sean]

Messes up your engagement too. Because the retention rate is the algorithm these days.

[Rick Barker]

Well, and the thing is, is the algorithm is going to say, ok, okay, everything. Rick Post will start it in Bangladesh. Well, then the person I really need to see it never gets to see it. So. So what I do is, I always do higher intent. You know, it's like I send them to a place where I'm going to take a shot by giving something of value to get that email.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Rick Barker]

Because once I get the email, I can start building the real relationship.

[Sean]

Right.

[Rick Barker]

You know, I do a lot of Instagram live. I love going live on Instagram. I tell people when they ask about Taylor, they're like, why isn't, you know, Beyonce and Taylor have to be on? I said, trust me, if we were starting over today, Taylor would be on Instagram every night going live. Oh, she would have ate it up. All these tools today. I mean, we had only. We only had MySpace when we started. Wow. Everybody was our friend, you know, it's like, so we had to really. She would have loved. I don't say she loved, but in my opinion, 16 year old Taylor would have loved being able to go live and perform every single night to a worldwide audience. Think about that. That's. That's what I tell people. You want a venue, open up your Phone, put it on a tripod. Go live, worldwide venue. You want to talk to people, talk to them. You want to bring them up, bring them up. Why would I bring them up? Because then their friends are going to get notified that they're live. And now you're going to introduce yourself to their friends and you didn't even have to do nothing but bring them up and act like you gave a right. I mean, it's like the tools. Oh, my God, I love them.

[Sean]

Were you Taylor's first manager?

[Rick Barker]

So I was technically her second manager, but I was her first manager when she released her record, got it, and went into that situation. My background is in radio, so I did radio for 15 years in Santa Barbara. All I ever wanted to do, I created the first ever radio tour where artists actually got paid. That ended up putting me on the radar.

[Sean]

Got it.

[Rick Barker]

Of the record companies. I always tell people, it's like, if you can solve other people's problems, my goodness, does it open up?

[Sean]

Absolutely.

[Rick Barker]

And that was a problem. So I helped break a bunch of artists from the early, you know, 2000s and ended up being offered a job to work for a record company. And at that record company, they had a 15 year old that no one had heard of yet. And they said, take her and teach her the music business. Take her out on this radio tour that you have created. And she didn't have a manager at the time. And we clicked. I mean, it was. It was one of those things. It's like I wanted to teach, she wanted to learn. Neither one of us had done this before, so we weren't set in the ways of other artists and other managers. And after our, you know, 30 days together, they would call every night wanting to solve the world's problems. And they're in Nashville, I'm in California, and finally I call the label and I'm like, you got to go get him a manager, man. They're wearing me out. And they went. And all the big managers said no. And some of the other managers, maybe they didn't want a teenager. Maybe they didn't want to deal with parents. Who knows why they said no. They didn't understand the Internet were some of the reasons why. So they called and said, hey. I said, how's the hunt coming? And they're like, that's why we're calling. And I said, okay. And they said, what would you say if I told you Taylor wanted you to be her manager? I said, I would say no. What do you mean you would say no? I said, I've Never managed anyone. They're like, look, we're not hiring you for your management experience. You think different. You believe in her. You're willing to take risks, you're willing to try things. That's what we need right now. We don't need somebody that's just going to set, you know, do the same things that everyone else is doing. Because I used to always tell her, I'm like, hey, if you want the same results as everyone else, do what everyone else is doing. And right now, they're failing right now. It's like the industry has shifted. There's a change coming, and what are you going to do with it? And it was great. So they offered me the job to be your manager. And I would drive from Santa Barbara to Nash to la, catch a plane, landed Nashville, catch a bus.

[Sean]

That's a far flight, tour for four.

[Rick Barker]

Days, go back home. And I did that for two years.

[Sean]

Damn. Every week.

[Rick Barker]

Yeah. My last year with her, I was gone 187 days. And I had a 4 year old and a 2 year old at the time, and I had gotten up to like £300. Whoa. And I was just like, all right, God, what's the plan? You know, I'm gonna see more money than I've ever seen in my life. In January that year, I would have become an instant millionaire. And I was like, at what expense? Now, I grew up with divorced parents. I grew up poor, so I never made money decisions because it's never an option that I had as a kid growing up. But I also knew what divorce that. That impact that had on me. And I called her and I said, listen, I'll forever be grateful. I'll always be one of your biggest fans. I said, but my family and my kids are the most important thing. So.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Rick Barker]

I gave my notice, worked through part of 2008 for her, and then told my wife. I said, listen, I said, I want to move the kids to Nashville. I said, I want them raised in the south where manners aren't an option. I said, I want no state income tax, and I'd love to get twice the house for half the money.

[Sean]

Love it.

[Rick Barker]

And it checked all the boxes. And then a very interesting situation happened at that point is that I didn't have a job. I'd been paid severance, and that was running out. And I got a phone call from who at the time was the most powerful person in Nashville. And his assistant said, joe would like to meet with you. When is the next time that you're going to be in Nashville? And I thought I'd done something wrong because Joe Galani was the most powerful. Scott Borchetta, who I worked for, a big machine, was number two. So two totally different styles. You know, most people didn't go from one of their labels to the other. One came from a sales background, one came from a promotion background. Both amazing guys. I was blessed to be able to learn from both. And when I lost, left the job, I was doing some work for a couple of his clients, and I thought I did something wrong. I said, can I ask why Joe wants to meet? She says, he just thinks it's time you and him got to know each other. So I flew to Nashville a week ahead of the family coming out, and I met with Joe and he said, listen. He says not to take anything away from Scott and Taylor. He said, but my team saw what you did with her. They saw the way she responded to you. They saw all your crazy ideas. They saw you out in meet and greet lines for three and a half hours, and the first person up in the morning and the last person. And the lesson is, there is one. You never know who's watching, right? You know, you never know who's watching. And he said, listen. He says, I think you would fit perfect with what I'm looking for at Sony. He said, I would love to offer you a job as a consultant. So I excused myself and I went to the restroom and I pulled out my BlackBerry. We didn't have iPhones then. And I call my wife and I said, go on Yahoo. We didn't have Google. I said, type in, what does a consultant do? I said, I'm being offered this job and I have no idea what it does. And she laughs like you did. And she's like, well, it looks like they advise at areas of expertise and they can get paid really well. And I immediately accepted the position as a consultant and did that for almost three and a half years for them while consult. Because then other people would call and go, hey, I understand you're a consultant. I'm like, why, yes, I am. You know, and they were like, what is. What do you pay? And this. I. I had my numbers down. I had the whole system down. But what I started seeing was there were just way too many things that I was screwed because I thought like a manager. But now I'm working at a label and I'm pro artist, but I'm also pro label, and I'm seeing a lot of things are happening at the label that aren't beneficial to the artist. And I'm like, how do I say something? Because I'm friends with these artists, I'm friends with these managers. This employer is now paying me to do this right. So I ended up realizing that if I wanted to be the most effective that I could be, I needed to start educating artists before they got their record deal and educating new managers before they got the record deal to be able to go in and make sure that they were a business that. Because the record companies today, they're not in the startup mode anymore. They're in the acquiring businesses that are already working, they already want to see streams, they already want to see ticket sales, they. The tools are available for anyone to do it. They want to see, are we going to invest in someone who's already doing it, who's already using those tools? We don't have time to start someone from scratch.

[Sean]

Takes too long, right?

[Rick Barker]

It takes way too long. It's very risky. They're not designed for that. They're not designed to help an artist grow a fan base, right. They're designed to throw gasoline on the fire you've already created. So now you can come in and become a business partner with the label and not an employee. Employees have no decision making power. Business partners do. You're able to write a better deal for yourself. You're able to come in with momentum that they can keep rolling. It's hard to start the wheel. It's easy once the wheel gets rolling. So that's what I'm trying to do is help those that want to go that route be something that's attractive to them. Those that want to remain independent, keep 100% creative control, keep the bigger piece of the pie, do things when they want to do things. I'm also teaching them how to do that, how to stay independent, how to be your first record company, your first manager, your first publisher, teach them those business sides. And I'm able to teach thousands of people all over the world because of technology, because of the Internet.

[Sean]

Love it.

[Rick Barker]

You know, I make courses, I do. If there's a problem, I'll talk about it, create it, put it out there, load up someone's toolbox, that it's up to them to use the tools.

[Sean]

Yeah, love that, man. What a story.

[Rick Barker]

Use the tools.

[Sean]

Holy crap. Did you watch the Taylor Swift Scooter Braun documentary?

[Rick Barker]

I've watched all her documentaries. I also wish that I didn't care as much about what was going on with Scooter because I didn't have a personal relationship with Scooter, but I did. I did Feel something. As the fans were turning on Scott Borchetta, because they were perfect for each other, really. Scott gave her. So she was signed to Sony Music before she was signed to Big Machine Record. A lot of people don't remember that Scott was the one who gave her the opportunity to write her own music and write her own record. You know, people forget that part of it. Taylor put his label on the map. They were perfect. What happened for each other?

[Sean]

What happened with that relationship?

[Rick Barker]

Well, that relationship came. Her deal was coming to an end, you know, and she wanted.

[Sean]

She got offered more money somewhere else.

[Rick Barker]

Yeah, a lot more. And the ability to own her masters and the ability to do a lot of different things. You know, it's like that happened. Happens. But, you know, they were. People say. People were saying things like, you know, it's like, never blame the label. If an artist signs a bad record deal, blame your attorney. Okay. Because you don't have to sign it. And the label is the bank, and the label's going to do everything it can to protect the bank. And the label is taking all the financial risk in the beginning. So the label deals that they were signing were pretty standard at that time. And that's the deal. And then once you recoup, which means you get. So do you mind if I explain how a quick record deal works? Sure. Okay. So the record company. I give you a hundred thousand dollars, and I say, okay, here's your hundred thousand dollars. That's your advance. I'm also gonna. We're gonna spend 200,000 on a record. We're gonna spend 50,000 for a video. So now you're responsible for paying back that money. That was like a loan. It's recoupable. Yes. Now, the deal I just signed with you is an 85. 15 deal. So for every dollar that comes In, I keep 85. You get 15.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Rick Barker]

But the problem is you have to pay back your loan to me out of your 15.

[Sean]

Got it.

[Rick Barker]

Not out of the 85. Oh, wow. You see what I'm saying? So it's not. The dollar doesn't pay back the loan. Your 15 cents.

[Sean]

So that would take time.

[Rick Barker]

It does. And so it's almost like for every. I don't know the exact math, but people would say for every 200 it costs you, you have to make a million to be able to pay back whatever it is. You're the crypto.

[Sean]

No, that makes sense.

[Rick Barker]

You. You've got the number thing, but yeah. You're only paying it back off your 15. Now what? Not many Artists recoup. It's really hard because the label can spend and you're responsible for it, and most are. Well, she had already recouped multiple times with what had happened, so she was always able to go in and, you know, renegotiate. And I just. I just wish that it was just sad to see because they did some very special things together and there's stuff that went on behind closed doors that I'm not privy to. Yeah, it doesn't matter to me. I just. When people would come to me asking whose side I would take, I said, I'm not going to take a side. I'm going to use this as an opportunity to educate on what that situation was. Scott needed to sell something. It was more valuable with Taylor attached to it. And Scooter was a smart businessman and came in and took that opportunity. It's business, right? It's business. But then all of a sudden, you know, you turn the swifties loose and they're all making death threats and all kinds of crazy things that are happening. You wouldn't believe the crap I get sometimes. People are, who's this Rick Barker guy? So I'm like Google, you know, it's like. It's like, that's part of my story, you know, I take zero credit for anything that Taylor did because Taylor ended up having to do it the same way Gary Vee can't take credit for what you did because he said the same thing to millions of people. You chose to do it.

[Sean]

Good point.

[Rick Barker]

I say the same thing to thousands of artists. She chose to do it. You know, because I. I'm a firm believer, if I'm going to take all the credit, then do I have to take all the credit for the people that didn't have success with what I taught.

[Sean]

Right.

[Rick Barker]

Can't be picking and choosing. Absolutely everything's. So I'm just like, hey, I gave some people some information, they did something with it. Congratulations to them. If you'd like me to give you that same information, awesome. But I can't guarantee anyone anything. It just doesn't work that way.

[Sean]

Yep.

[Rick Barker]

And everybody wants guarantees. And trust me, if anybody's guaranteeing you anything running, yeah, they're not legit.

[Sean]

It's a red flag for me when someone asks, what can you guarantee?

[Rick Barker]

I can guarantee that I'll do the best I can to provide you the content that you need. You know what I mean? That's all I can guarantee. I can only guarantee me showing up, me doing the work. It's like I have a this thing called office hours. And every Monday, 3:00, artists that are in my community come and ask me questions specific to their business. It's like me being a virtual manager for thousands of people without having to physically take on their day to day responsibilities because the manager couldn't do it. So they ask a question, they're like, so what am I going to get when I become part of your program? I say, you're going to get me showing up. When I say I'm going to show up, I will get you the answer to your question, either from my own Rolodex or I will help you find the problem and find the answer. Because my job wants to teach you to fish. I don't want to fish for you, but if I can't get you the answer, I will get you to the answer.

[Sean]

Absolutely.

[Rick Barker]

That's my only promise that I can promise someone. I can't determine who's going to like your music. I can't determine which part of the algorithm that is going to release it to the right person or whatever the case. I can't control any of that. The only thing I can control is me showing up and being present at that moment, you know, at that time.

[Sean]

Boom. Rick, closing thoughts. And where can people learn from you and get in touch with you?

[Rick Barker]

Just hit me up on Instagram at Rick Barker Music. Head on over to my website. You know, if you want to grab a free copy of my book or anything like that, it's. And if, you know, you feel that you might want to spend an hour with me to learn something, there's ways we can do that as well. But you know, first off, just thank you for allowing me the opportunity to just share me. You know, my whole goal in life is to encourage people to seek the answers. You know, it's like there's no you can get it today. There's no shortage of it. And yeah, DM me on Instagram, let me know that you found me here on, on Sean's podcast. And you know, let's, let's pop it up. You got your own shoes too?

[Sean]

Yes, sir. Custom shoes, baby.

[Rick Barker]

Yes.

[Sean]

Got a brand, everything. Got the mic flags, got the background.

[Rick Barker]

No, you. No, you're doing it right?

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rick Barker]

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

[Sean]

27.

[Rick Barker]

God, I wish that's how I feel.

[Sean]

About like 18 years old.

[Rick Barker]

Yeah, I'm 57.

[Sean]

You got young energy.

[Rick Barker]

Well, what it is is that like I said, I've been sober for a long time. I just, I'm passionate about people. And I see you're also passionate about people. And it's like you found a way to provide for yourself, but in a way that helps other people. And when you lead with a servant's mentality, you will always win. And that's what you're doing by allowing people like myself to be a guest on your podcast, by allowing us to. To share our stories. You know, my story is I didn't graduate high school. I didn't go to college. You know, not by choice. I got addicted to drugs at a young age, and Fortunate got sober. And one thing led me to another, and I tell people that I'm like, look, your past does not define your future. I went from being homeless on the streets, addicted to crack cocaine, to launching one of the biggest stars in the world. So save your excuses for somebody else, you know? But I also tell people that, as I say, I share that for two reasons. One is that don't give up on somebody who may be struggling with an addiction, you know? And number two is don't use that as an excuse, because no one has ever asked me for a resume. No one has ever asked me where I went to college. No one has ever asked me anything like that. They said, I saw you were able to do this for this person. Can you do it for me? Show up every day, kick ass, and people will notice what's going on, and the right opportunities will come your way.

[Sean]

I love that. We'll get there, man. That was so powerful.

[Rick Barker]

Perfect.

[Sean]

Thanks for coming on, man.

[Rick Barker]

Yeah, thanks for having me.

[Sean]

Absolutely. Thanks for watching, guys. See you next time.

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