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Digital Social Hour
How to Master Negotiation Like an FBI Pro | Joe Polish & Chris Voss DSH #1412
01:05:50
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- [00:00]
A
You know, there's going to be someone that's going to come into that room and have to clean it up. Sorry, I'll make the bed and everything, but I just don't leave shit everywhere. And so I think every day we experience all kinds of different humans.
- [00:13]
B
There's no shortage of indicators that, you know, the kind of energy you put out is going to tend to attract it to you.
- [00:27]
C
Do you guys find, because you both know a lot of successful people, the narcissism levels are higher with those that are financially successful compared to average people.
- [00:35]
A
That's. Well, so from any other than just my opinion or perspective, not any scientific research here, I don't really know. I curiously, what Chris says to this, what I will say is, so Dr. Ramani Darvasla, I've got a couple interviews with her that I've done and she's a friend and she's one of the top, if not the top narcissist expert in the world right now in terms of, you know, people that follow her. She's not a marketer. She's not tried to, to get, she get famous. She just says really profound stuff. And she has a massive following. And so I've had lots of conversations with her about narcissism and about sociopaths and psychopaths. And there's a, there's a large percentage of that in CEO levels, the business world, politics, any areas where people are in, in positions of controlling or leading other people. And it tends to the, the world of fab tends to attract narcissists because they want people to adore them. So I have a friend who's a great copywriter, John Carlton. He's now in his 70s and I was talking to him a few months ago and we're talking about marketers and about people that are scam artists and con artists. And one of the things he said, I think 25% of them are narcissists, 25% are sociopaths, 25% are psychopaths. The other 25% are just normal, cold people. And I was like, you know what that sounds about, right? In the world of marketers. I know, right? And I've been in the marketing world for a long time, having to navigate a lot of people that are really capable, but their characters are not really good. So to me it's, you know, more about character than it is about capability. Who, who are you off stage versus who are you on stage? I mean, there's a lot to be said about those that can't teach you know that line? It's actually, I've met so many people that are great on video, great on stage, write amazing books as humans, they do not live their message at all. And I think a lot of those people are narcissists. And so. But I've also learned if you ever invalidate the message because of the messenger, you'll never read another book, attend another seminar, listen to another podcast. Because Noah's perfect. You know, we're all flawed human beings. I've got plenty of those. But, you know, I want to let.
- [03:02]
B
It phrase Flo June.
- [03:05]
A
Was that you were meeting.
- [03:06]
B
Yeah, I came up with. And you got me the shirt that sets. Yeah.
- [03:10]
A
And then you wore that on of humor then when you are, you know.
- [03:12]
B
Yeah.
- [03:14]
C
We're all flawed in some way though, right?
- [03:15]
A
Yeah.
- [03:15]
B
Amen. Yeah.
- [03:16]
A
Which is. Is. Yeah. I mean, that's the journey of life, you know. I mean, I think in a lot of ways, anyone that puts themselves out there teaching whatever they want to learn, what it is they teach. If you want to know what someone's interested in, what are they talking about? You know, if they're doing a podcast, what's the theme of their podcast? Now, it could be all over the place, Right. It could be a variety show to bazillion different topics. But, you know, people that write books on time management usually suck at time. Really?
- [03:45]
B
That's a bonnet, though, right?
- [03:46]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, they're, They're. They're getting better at it.
- [03:49]
B
Good. Right. They're good at writing. They find other stuff and they're good at writing. So they write this stuff up without having actually tested the ideas in many ways themselves. And then people looking for books and then, you know, and then to just point. Sort of hard to sort out, you know, whose good book is based on their experience. And usually people that are really good at what they do aren't great at explaining it. It's one of the. I'm listening to Jeff Van Gundy talk about coaches in the NBA a couple years ago, and he said you'll find the great players are not great coaches. And most of the great coaches, you know, they probably didn't start on the team like Phil Jackson. Couple guys, you could argue who's the best coach ever in the NBA. Phil Jackson be in that conversation. He didn't even start for the Knicks. He played on a championship team, so there's a pretty good chance he would start at other places. But he started for the Knicks, so. Yeah, the ability to do something really well and then be good Explaining it are usually two different things now kind of from and Joe is good at explaining it but he's far smarter than he realizes. Like his ability in marketing.
- [05:00]
D
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- [07:06]
B
You know, the conference we just got done with, you know, I got a youngster with me, that's learning marketing. Kind of embarrassed me yesterday because at first listening to Joe, he's just blown away. He's trying to learn marketing. And Joe's just a steady stream of stuff that Nate's going like. I wish I hadn't known that. So at the end of. And he tells me before, yes. And he says, Joe's. I don't know who's smarter, Joe or Jordan Peterson. Because I'm sitting there listening to Joe and I'm just absorbing it. So we do this exercise yesterday at the end of the conference. Joe wants people to say what they got out of the conference and who are they most grateful for. He's not really fishing for compliments, but he's just trying to spread the gratitude. And most of the people, there are three of us, Joe, Nick and I, that are pretty much MCing this thing and adding our thoughts. And you know they're going to pick one of us or all three of us or somebody in a room. And Nate starts talking and he's like, he gets embarrassed. He says, but I'm most grateful for Joe. I mean, how you worked for me. How the hell, how are you? I brought you here, you ungrateful bastard. You're most grateful for Joe. So I love it.
- [08:17]
A
That was funny. He's giving him grief and everything too. It was funny.
- [08:22]
C
That's a good point, though. It's hard to be a teacher too, because a lot of these professors, even they don't have the background, but they're teaching it exactly.
- [08:29]
B
Like when they have a test of the ideas.
- [08:31]
A
Right.
- [08:31]
B
I am. So it's very hard for them to really understand how the idea interacts with the battlefield if they ever tested it themselves.
- [08:37]
C
Yeah, I remember when I was at Rutgers, I was really excited for a marketing class. It was the first class I was ever excited for because I hated all the topics growing up. And I meet the professor, he's had four failed businesses, never had a successful one. I'm like, why am I learning from this guy? You know?
- [08:53]
A
Exactly.
- [08:53]
C
And that's a lot of professors, unfortunately.
- [08:55]
A
Here's the thing in this, you're absolutely right there. And I got a C minus in principals or no, I got a se. Yeah, I got a C. I went to Chandler Gilbert Community College because people like, what is your education? So I would always tell people like Abe Lincoln, I'm self taught. So I went to the highly esteemed Chandler Gilbert Community College years ago when I was in my early 20s and.
- [09:21]
B
I got a cyber league score.
- [09:23]
A
Exactly. And I got A C Midas in principles of Marketing. And I failed owning and Operating a Small Business. And I have a copy of my report card in that book, the Average Joe's Marketing Book, which is funny, that book's not publicly available yet, but it's coming out, it's a pre release version. And I have a copy of the report card because it doesn't matter. You can have credentials, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're skilled. And there are people that are teachers and gurus and speakers and authors that are reporters of success and there are people that are successful and what makes a really great teacher, you can write a best selling book. It could be fascinating. It doesn't mean people are having success with it. What the real barometer is, can you transfer those skills that you know to other people? And to your point, like for instance, I said this at the event yesterday. So I became Richard Branson's largest fundraiser. And for years I would do week long trips to Necker island and I would bundle it in to have lunch and dinner for everyone with Richard Prince. And so I've sat through so many, I've probably interviewed that guy more than anyone. And most of that footage won. 99.99% of all that. Those hours and hours of conversation are not. We've never put them out online. You know, I've only put a couple interviews. It's been a long time. And Richard clearly is a successful entrepreneur. He's very well known, he's a good marketer, you know, books, all that sort of stuff. But talking to him, if you ever watch him speak, and I've introduced him to people that have had him at their vets and interview him. He doesn't say a lot of profound stu people, but I'll tell you, he's an intuitive entrepreneur, but he doesn't know how to really explain well what he does. When he verbally talks, he stutters. Same with Elon Musk. Elon Musk has gotten way better though, because I've had two meetings with Elon in small groups as the ASX years ago, but he's gotten way better, especially since he was campaigning for Trump and everything and doing speeches because he's straight, kind of awkward guy.
- [11:31]
C
He has Asperger's, right?
- [11:32]
B
Yeah, yeah. But I'll throw in a shameless promotion from what you said about Richard because I'm a master class. Branson's masterclass is a good, is a great masterclass. And so they produce that well. And you know, obviously, you know, for what you're Saying impromptu conversations in the kitchen where you guys are getting coffee is one thing, right? And then. But Branson's master class is worth watching. Got it.
- [11:59]
C
So he just needs more structure of his to something.
- [12:02]
B
In many cases that that's going to be what it is. And they prep them in the master class. People put in so much homework before they do the episode that they make it easy for a guy like Richard to do a great job explaining what his mojo is as well as anybody's ever going to explain it. Got it.
- [12:19]
A
Yeah. And so to that point, if you have someone that helps you take your knowledge and your wisdom and package it that you know, so it's the, it's the, it's the packaging of the wisdom, it's the extraction of the wisdom and then it's the selling and the marketing of it. So oftentimes like my partner is a brilliant, amazing, sweet, caring, the most non egotistical could give a shit about fame. A doctor. She's a vaginal plastic surgeon at one of the top in the world and she's an integrative doc and she has a handful of billionaires that pay her 50 grand a year to be the concierge doctor. She doesn't try to go online, she's not on social media, she doesn't know how to do it. And she's a great doctor. But I help about 20% of my genius L word numbers that are the health deal. So I know a lot of psychologists, psychiatrists integrated with docs, functional medicine docs, naturopaths, you name it. And when someone focuses on becoming a celebrity doctor as an example, it could be any category. So I'm not picking on doctors. They usually become not as good as doctors because they're putting all that attention on how to get known versus, you know, treating patients and stuff. So it's an interesting mix where you, you don't want to lose. See what I've always admired about Chris, I mean he's the same dude that he was before he sold over 4 million. Cop would never split the difference. He's the best in the world now at, you know, he's the top living, you know, negotiating expert. But he's really good at teaching people. Now I don't say this sort of opinion I've done to the black swan trainings that they do. I mean every time we do an event, there's people that come up to him, you've changed my life. I'm saying this, I'm saying that, I mean he's just the same guy but he doesn't, you know, he knows how to engage with the ego and the stuff that. That comes along with the wooz. I guess we're talking about that particular area. So part of it is what I want to share with young people is don't believe your own pr. Be nice to the people you meet on the way up. They're the same people you're going to meet on the way down. Don't leave scorched earth as you go on. The way to gauge people is how are people that are more powerful, how do they treat people that are less powerful? So when I meet a lot of well known people, I really observe how do they treat their teams, how do they treat their staff, how do they treat their partners? If you go, best thing, just go to frigging dinner with someone. How are they with servers? And anyone that is like, oh, pay attention to me or don't you know who I am? Which is actually the title of it. Ramany Darbasa is whatever, her previous book. But I look for that.
- [14:55]
C
So, yeah, I try not to use that line. Yeah, I've been tempted, though.
- [14:58]
B
Which one? Don't you know?
- [14:59]
C
Yeah.
- [15:00]
B
Yeah.
- [15:00]
D
I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.
- [15:07]
A
Falsehooded. A funny thing with friends and stuff, but I would never use that to exploit it or manipulate someone because it's just. It's just egotistical as.
- [15:15]
C
But.
- [15:16]
A
And again, ego is an important thing. I'm not a guy that poo poo's ego. When you, you. There's part like, I mean, Richard Schwartz book, no bad parts. You know, there's ways to embrace every good and bad quality of yourself as.
- [15:30]
B
A human and engage with it.
- [15:32]
A
I mean, you know, Chris has to have an ego to. You know, as a former top international FBI hostage negotiator, you know, the ego comes in handy. There's times where you, you know, you want to utilize your ego. You don't want it to use you, though. You don't want it to be your. Your master. You want it to be a servant. Yeah.
- [15:50]
C
Because it can provide that calmness. Right. You've been there before, so you kind of have an ego from the past.
- [15:55]
B
Yeah, yeah. And I suppose in my bureau career to some degree. First of all, I'm loving this conversation so much, so much. I like to touch up. So to take a step back, you were talking about your greater marketing, like, all right, so FBI's top hostage, international hostage Negotiator won the Attorney General's Award for Excellence in law enforcement. FBI's Agents Association Award for Distinguished and Exemplary Service. Crudology class I took in college. I got a D. Wow. Even Chris.
- [16:27]
A
Yeah.
- [16:27]
B
So, but then, you know, like, if you want to stay grounded, like specialize in making regular people feel good. Like what I get a kick out of when we go to dinner is like, if I can make the waiter smile in a way that they didn't smile for anybody else or interact with them in a way where they're getting a kick out of waiting on us when everybody else is treating them regularly. To me, that's fun. Specializing in making regular people feel good. And then you also asked. I think it was this wealth make people narcissists or fame, more famous, more wealthier they get. To me, it's how they come to it. And so then last night we have dinner and Joe knows Damon John pretty well. And Joe's introduced me, but Damon's friends with Joe and we're having dinner and like he's a regular dude. So how did he come to be famous? You know, and he's sitting, he kind of sits back in a corner. He kind of, he makes it a point to sort of not be observed. And you know, he's, he's in fermented foods now, so he's, you know, making sure. But he can have, you know, try this. It'll make you healthy. Just very regular dude, very easy to be around. Somebody told me recently, guys producing stuff for a famous Hollywood guy, but he's a very down to earth dude. He said people that are drawn to LA are people who want to be fighters. If you're drawn to New York, contrasting, you want to be the best. And that's a different breed of cat. And so it's just an example of two different paths. Now, not everybody in LA went there to be famous. You know, my significant other now, she ended up in la. She's a New Yorker. She, you know, she ended up in LA because of a relationship. You know, she didn't go there to be famous. Right. And she was in the music business, was doing very well. Singer, songwriter, successful model, you know, she gorgeous girl. I tell everybody she's vision impaired. That's why she's with me. But she wasn't drawn to la, but she's in la, so, you know. What was Wendy Stalin, by the way? Wendy, you know, 80 kilos, the one I mentioned in that. But how did they get there? You know, what was their path to that? That's going to give you really indicator what they're like when they're there. And again, Damon's a regular dude. Like, he worked his ass off. He talks about selling stuff out of the trunk of his car, going to flea markets. Like, how did he get there? And then where is he now? And I think he's retained very much what he always was. Well, you see it. You see it same way.
- [19:04]
A
Oh, completely. Completely. Yeah. And, you know, there, there's. There's a Persona that some people put up because they're maybe on TV and they're doing performances or whatever. But, like, is the thing about the humid. Is it the real humid or is it the performance? You know that, that old thing that Chris Rock used to say when you're going out on it, your first date, are you. Is it. Is it really Them were said to represent. Yeah, that's a little thing.
- [19:30]
C
These days. Authenticity is huge. I think that's why Trump won, honestly. Yeah, well, yeah. Whenever Kamala went on a podcast, it wasn't even herself. It just scripted answers. It's like, I want to see the real side of this person. Where Trump would go on Fiovon or Rogan, and he'd really authenticate.
- [19:43]
B
There's no doubt in your mind where Trump has come from. Error on anything and people challenge him. And he says, yeah, I said that and I learned. We talked about this the other day. You want people to trust you. Take the word trust out and put in the word predictability. I want to know where this dude's come from. And I don't want him to change his mind.
- [20:06]
A
I don't want to meet him in.
- [20:07]
B
One place and be really nice to me and then go out public and say stuff that's really not in my interest. And so people trust those that they can predict where they're coming from. And to me, one of them number of attractions to Trump is there's no doubt in your mind where this dude's coming from. He's not going to change his mind. He's not going to back off. If he did something stupid that we think is stupid and we're critical of, he's going to be like, yeah, I did it. Pretty good chance. Yeah. And to make no one to be sure, I'd say it again. I'd do it again in his first term. The legacy media is used to challenging somebody and then having him back off the next day. And the cycle with the legacy media. And Trump was so predictable. Like, can you believe what Trump said today? And the very next day can you believe he's not backing down? And he would be. Over and over and over. And I'm like, when are you guys going to stop being shocked that he's not backing off of what he said? But that's why people want somebody. They know where they're coming from on a regular basis. And vast majority of politicians are going to change their mind based on a poll.
- [21:22]
A
Exactly. You know, Ben Carson, when Ben Carson was running for president, I remember seeing someone could watch this on YouTube if they want to pull it up. It's him on the View. And all the crazy View women are basically saying, you know, why, you know, why is he so. Why is he such an asshole? It's not the exact words, but they're basically.
- [21:39]
B
That's really what they say.
- [21:41]
A
Yeah, yeah. I'm just saying I'm paraphrasing my interpretation. So they all can't stand trouble. And they're like, why can't he be nice like you? And he goes, well, you see how well that worked for me, you know, And I thought that was a very interesting thing because he's up there supporting Trump, you know, positively. This was before the election, and saying great things about him. And they're just like, but he insulted you. And he said this and he said that. He's like, but, you know, he knows how to get the message out. And you Talk what was 12 seasons of the Apprentice and he. Yeah, I mean, he had just 10, over a decade of experience on American media. I mean, he. People completely underestimate how smart that guy actually is. Plus he's not a politician too. So, you know, his base loves him and the people, they can't stand in, you know, it's literally, there is Trump derangement syndrome. But like when I was interviewing, you know, my event over the weekend, I interviewed Bobby Kennedy Jr. Who's a good friend, Tucker Carlson and Jordan Peterson. And I said, you know, there's Jordan Peterson derangement syndrome, There's Tucker Carlson derangement syndrome. It doesn't matter what side Political.
- [22:45]
B
I don't think there's any Joe Polish derangement syndrome yet.
- [22:48]
A
No, I hope that. Yeah, I hope I don't walk through the world pissing people off that bad.
- [22:53]
C
Well, that goes back to where we started, how you don't want the fame.
- [22:56]
A
Here's the thing. There's a part of me that likes it. I'm an insecure person. I had low self worth, low self esteem. Most my life I was a drug addict. I've been in recovery for over 20 years. There's a part of me that I want people to like me. I want people to validate me externally. And that's very seductive. Fame is very seductive. So I like the advantages that one gets if people know you and they hold you in a high position. What I don't want is the part of it that requires me to want it. So when you are looking at a phone and we were talking about my friend Dr. Anna Lembke, I think before we started recording, where she wrote the book Dovah B Nation, and you're literally looking at a phone because you spent hours a day.
- [23:45]
C
Eight hours a day. I spent.
- [23:46]
A
Yeah. I mean, you're constantly depleting the dopamine and it gives you a hit. It gives you a hit. So when they're doing studies on rats, as an example, chocolate gives you a 55%, I think, increase for rat dopamine. Sex is 150%. Cold plunges, which I did right before the city bureau went and did a cold plunge at a place down the street that my friends own, gives you a 200% increase. Cocaine is a 225% increase in dopamine. Methamphetamines is a thousand percent increase. So you're talking. That's why people do drugs. That's why people gamble. Poured. I mean, there's always.
- [24:25]
B
That destroys people to total.
- [24:27]
A
Yeah. And it removes empathy, too.
- [24:28]
B
I mean, that's all really got through is empathy. Yeah.
- [24:31]
A
Like it. I mean, without going long into it, for timing purposes, the entire German army was being given methamphetamines during the war because they would fight more aggressively, they would sleep less, and they would eat less trying to feed soldiers. So if you're looking at all these wars in the world right now, I can guarantee you that amphetamines are a big part of it.
- [24:52]
B
Wow. Were you going to say something? Well, I'm digging what you're saying. So we.
- [24:59]
A
Yeah, I didn't know if you were like, I got a plan.
- [25:02]
B
So thank you though. I appreciate that.
- [25:04]
A
You got it. You got it. So years ago, I was sitting with my friend, Dr. Pat Cart. She's the top sex addiction doctor in the world. And I'd done an interview with him years ago and we're talking about addiction. And he had got a Fulbright scholarship to do a study on linking genetics to addiction and how someone would act out their addiction. Because there's no such thing as just a pure alcoholic. It's like some drink wine, some drink into blackouts. It might be a woman who drinks Two glasses of wine every night, doesn't show any signs of intoxication, but cannot function without doing that every day. We were talking about that sort of stuff and we got on talking about the methamphetamines and he was telling me, you know, the latest studies that we've been researching is long term usage of crystal meth renews empathy. Which made sense why the German army could do things like concentration camps, because they had been zapping their empathy for systems. So a book called Blitzed Drugs in the Third Reich explain all of that. So I won't go into detail, but I'll tell you, you don't hear that story a lot that World War II was in many ways caused by addiction. Not at all.
- [26:18]
C
I've never heard that take about World War II.
- [26:20]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [26:21]
B
So it is certainly fueled by addiction.
- [26:23]
A
Yeah, yeah. So say cause and people can argue that. But to go back to fate, we both have a dear friend, Dan Solman. I've known him for years. I founded a company called Strategic Coach. And so Dan talks about. I do a podcast with Dan and growth versus status. If you're pursuing status versus pursuing growth, you will show up in a different place in your life. So some people would rather be well known than well paid. I'd rather be well paid than well known. I have a billionaire friend in Canada.
- [26:57]
B
But also, if I could point out too, as a consequence of growth, because I don't think it's fair for you to say that you'd rather be well paid. You're into growing, you're into evolving as a human being. Now, it's a nice consequence, a secondary benefit. And you got no problem with making money. There is no problem with making money and making a lot of it. But for yours, it's a secondary consequence because you will consistently focus on growing as a human being. And even though you're deeply flawed. Yes. And you ain't denying that, you're still occasionally capable of doing something that's very flawed. Your focus is on becoming a better human being, which is why somebody, so many people come to you like that event that you just ran like. And you know, I'm jealous. You know, like he's packing his room. And these are not $99 tickets. You know, some, some speakers out there, you know, they, they could, they could, they could fill a room. But the tickets are cheap as hell.
- [27:53]
A
Right.
- [27:54]
B
But Joe's focus is on growth, on being a better human being and being very supportive in an entrepreneurial environment. And he's put people in a route because they want to be part of that, right? Yeah.
- [28:07]
A
No, it is like all money or ethically is a byproduct of value creation. So I've never been in any sort of business or industry that requires someone to, like, I win, but they lose sort of thing. And so I, yeah, I'd be going back to be nice to the people you meet on the way up. They're the same people you're going to meet on the way down. If you ever take advantage, I believe it as a karmic level. I'm not trying to give a morality speech. I just think there's something that happens in the world where if you give more than you take, life gives to the giver and takes from the taker, and so always be more of a giver than you are a taker. And that also means if you're a really generous, caring, helpful person, let people give to you too. So giving to others also means you're able to receive. And that's often hard for people that are big givers. They'll deplete themselves. And I've depleted myself tremendously in good ways and bad ways. In the bad ways is trying to have people that don't pay attention to me, don't really care, acknowledge. And that comes from childhood trauma, that sort of stuff. And if anyone's ever been, you know, abused, oftentimes, you know, so I was molested as a kid. I was paid money not to say anything. That manifested into difficulty with intimacy. My favorite definition of intimacy was given to me by a guy who basically sponsors feeble sexual addictions. And he said intimacy is a mutual exploration of a shared safe place. Abuse is anything that takes away the safe place. And addictions are what we do to make ourselves feel good where we don't have a safe place. So if you don't feel safe in the world, you're going to look for ways to try to feel okay. And oftentimes people will use look how good I am and they'll lie and they'll put on. They'll try to present its life. That's what's one of the problems. Major problems with social media is it breeds a certain level of narcissistic, give me attention because it's going to make me feel good. But it's kind of like cotton candy. It tastes good, but you're going to feel like shit if you eat a bunch of it. So if you're just consuming junk food, it's going to, you know, that's what you're putting into your body. But your mind is the same way. So in terms to your point, constantly growing, learning how to become a better human being and doing that. I have a, like the rental car philosophy of life. You could probably help me come up with a better way to title it. But like, if you rent a car, don't drive it over speed bumps, don't spill shit on it. Don't, you know, put cigarettes out. Not they want you to smoke in a car anymore. So if you rent someone's house, don't put holes in the drywall, don't beat it up because it's not your own. And like, you know, I, I started out as a Deborah carpet cleaner, living off credit cards. I never learned bargaining or any of this stuff, thinking I would teach it to someone else. I just needed to pay my bills, I needed to survive. And so, you know, I got very in depth into clean, making sure things are clean. And if I stay at a hotel, I don't trash the hotel room. I know that, you know, there's going to be someone that's going to come into that room and have to clean it up. So I don't make the bed and everything, but I just don't leave shit everywhere. And so I think every day we experience all kinds of different humans or they're going to experience our space. Like, leave it better off than it was before you showed up. Exactly.
- [31:40]
B
And kind of that Boy Scout lineup, you know, there's certain things out there do we can leave people better than you found them. You're not always going to do. You're going to make mistakes, but having the overall approach is to do that. And to Joe's point earlier, karma. We don't have the science to fight it yet, but there's a lot of people that are really paying close attention to human nature that a thousand percent convinced that it actually exists. And you see it pop up. Book the secret a long time ago. There's no shortage of indicators that the kind of energy you put out is going to tend to attract it to you over the long term. And one of my favorite conversations, a huge fan of Andrew. I know Andrew personally. Good guy, good dude. So the first time that I get a chance to get into a conversation with him and Andrew won't put anything out on his podcast, it's not scientifically validating.
- [32:43]
C
Right.
- [32:43]
B
You know it ain't. It's not his opinion. And which is different from a lot of PhDs, because a lot of PhDs think that beginning with a PhD made of Jesus. And so if you're Jesus. What you said is true because you're Jesus. And PhDs are like, well, you know, I said this because I'm a PhD. Must be true. Andrew doesn't do that. However, in a private conversation, we're talking, and my girlfriend Wendy says, you know, you think that such a thing's carnal, and it kind of looks around as if somebody's listening. And then he goes, yeah. And so I'm like, all right, so you're smart enough, dude, and a great observer of human nature. You've actually seen some of the science that indicates this is a possibility, because he's not that it's not about science, but the rigorously vetted experiments are not there yet. So he's not going to put it out because his credibility on his podcast is uppermost in his mind. But I remember seeing the way he reacted like that. And because he's a scientist, I'm thinking like, you've seen the science that indicates it's probably there. We just don't have enough of it yet to validate it. But then, you know, you look it around, and if you look around, you see the evidence on a regular radio on a daily basis, and, you know, there's. There's all this science that many people would call religion or magic that we just haven't. We just haven't validated yet, right? And so there's. There's something, too. Karma. And you're. You're. You're better off. You're not immune from disaster and trauma and negative things. It doesn't put an invisible force field around you, but what it does is increase your percentages of success and happiness much higher and on a regular basis, if you practice it long term, it's going to work out.
- [34:47]
C
I definitely believe in it. It'd be hard to prove scientifically, like spirituality and karma, but I believe in it.
- [34:52]
A
Well, I would say this because I look at everything through the lens of the connection. So my life is really about increasing my level of consciousness, always knowing that everyone, myself included, most of the time, thinks they're right and we could be utterly wrong. I could be utterly wrong and in my mind, be convinced that I'm right. And unlearning is more important to me than learning. I'm constantly trying to learn stuff, but I'm also trying to unlearn the shit that I think is true that just ain't serving me or others well. Right. And I've learned a lot of that through recovery. And connection is the thing. The opposite of addiction is connection. And when You're a connected person. We both have a friend, Steven Kotler. Him's the top flow expert in the world, and he's done tremendous amounts of research on it and learned how to get into flow. If you take total human despair, just pain, addiction, hopelessness, suicidal or bliss flow. Now everything in between is life vacillated between depression and anxiety and loneliness. Because sometimes where we're at in our life, if you're sleep deprived, if things aren't working out, if you have a death in the family, a disease, you're just not physically or mentally doing well, you're going to be in a different state. That if everything's working, the thing that I always try to look for is what connects me. And it's from a karma standpoint, you know how you feel when you are doing well, when you're not taking advantage. Like it's like a deposit or withdrawal for the bank if you're doing more withdrawals for people and from life, you're depleted if you're putting more deposits in. And it's, you know, it's. It's a little bit of art and science. But the fact is, you know, I used to ignore red flags.
- [36:50]
B
I would keep.
- [36:51]
A
I really like that person. I really want to believe in that deal. I really, really want to believe that this relationship is going to go in a particular way. And I would ignore red flags. And of course you pay the price. But I didn't even notice the yellow flags. And so I now what we should talk about, because Chris has done a great job with it, is I came up with this thing called ELF versus half. You could have an easy, lucrative and funded business, or you can have a half business, which is hard, annoying, layman frustrating. Or it could be hard, annoying, lucrative. Because not all money is created equal in whatever we put our, what I call tam, your time, attention, money, effort and energy into is.
- [37:31]
B
It's who do you choose, who to.
- [37:34]
A
Give your time to, who to give your attention, what to give your money to, your effort, your energy. And there are people in life that are half. They're hard, annoying, lame, and frustrating. And there's other people that are elf. So Chris being as smart as he is with how to read people, listen to what they say, and teaching people how to phrase things, going for no questions versus yes. He came up with high indicators of half, where in advance you can know if somebody is going to be hard, annoying, lame and frustrating versus if they're going to be easy, loop, or even fun. So at first I used to think of elf just through the lens of marketing. ELF strategies like consumer awareness guides and free recorded messages and all these robotic methods of messaging and putting information out about yourself. But then I started to look at it. That pretty much applies to everything. Is this person elf, or is this person hap? And do I feel connected to this thing or do I not feel connected to something? Because there's a lot of things that. For instance, I love pizza and fast food and all that, even though I hardly ever eat any of that. I mean, I don't eat fast food except I ate an In N Out burger.
- [38:45]
B
Always the way in.
- [38:46]
C
And that's good.
- [38:46]
A
No, what's funny about In N Out? And this is the logic that I have for this source. I'll just say this real quickly. Years ago there was a book called Fast Food Nation, just about how Boerwolf has food.
- [38:56]
B
Is this true?
- [38:57]
A
You're talking low quality, you know, just crappy talks of shit. And this was. I watched this movie when they used to be on DVDs and they had bonus sections and you could see the outtakes and stuff. And there was an interview with the.
- [39:11]
B
Author and the guy to put the movie together.
- [39:13]
A
Okay, you don't eat fast food, but if you ever did, what's the best soup place? He goes, well, none of it's that good for you. But if you were going to eat fast food, the best is for burgers, is in and out. They have the highest quality this at the time, I'll know you know what it is. The highest quality meat. They make their own bread. They, you know, they, they kept their, their potatoes fresh, you know, that sort of style. I thought that was really.
- [39:37]
C
That's cool.
- [39:38]
A
But the, but the thing is, you.
- [39:40]
B
Know, we're all putting Uma to the ELF half. But.
- [39:42]
A
Yeah, well, you speak to it because.
- [39:45]
B
Yeah, because, well, you know, that's one of the reasons why I love collaborating with them. And, and I, and I tend to be a little bit of practical, implement, implementable guy. And I probably got the idea because when I was in the FBI, we got about a 93% success rate in hostage negotiation. So that means 7%'s gone bad. So the question is, is this predictable? And my former boss, Gary Nesta came up with this high risk indicators. If you got a 7 percenter on your hands, you got to recognize reality for what it is and adjust. You can't be hopeful. Another phrase they threw out the other day is hope is a drug, not a strategy. Hope will blind you.
- [40:28]
A
Don't sell Hopium to people.
- [40:30]
B
Yeah, Opium. Yeah. So just you got to get a handle on what you have in front of you. Because if you're a professional negotiator, business or hostage negotiation, the people you work for are not going to want you to get caught off guard. They're not going to want you to act like you're going to be able to make the deal and then suddenly have, you know, everything go bad. By hostage negotiations, people are dying, people get killed. Or if you suddenly come up to a commander and say, we got to kill this guy right now. Which part of a hostage negotiator's job to save other lives. Commander's got reason for saying, like, where in the hell have you been for the last two hours? Or you're talking to this guy. How is this suddenly a surprise to you? And that's why Gary came up with this. We got to see this stuff coming. So, you know, in business and personal life, el versus half who's going to be hard, annoying, lame and frustrating. It's not a sin to not get the deal. It's a sin to take a long time to not get the deal. It's also a sin to take a long time to get a bad deal. So I'm inspired by Joe's take on this. I thousand percent believe in this philosophy. And I go back to my team. This has got to be predictable and hard. Annoying, lame and frustrating are each different kinds of emotions. So the type of negative emotion begins to give you an insight as to.
- [41:47]
A
What'S going on with the prowlings.
- [41:49]
B
Like if you're angry, it's about something that happened in the past. If you're frustrated, you're being denied from something in the future. So the type of negative emotion begins to help you isolate on the timeline what's going on and how to react. Then where are the yellow flags? Joe's got me and my team taking. All right, so we know the red flags. Now we got to look at the yellow flags. And so there's yellow flags of the hard annoying labor frustrate. What is their behavior? How are they going to manifest? There's going to be a profile. People are eminently predictable. You may not like the pattern, but there ain't a human being out there other than and I mean this, and it's going to sound disparaging, but it's just reality. Paranoid schizophrenics are unpredictable because nobody knows what the voice in their head is telling them. Them they are the only kind that are unpredictable. So if your wiring is raw for a very Unscientific description. But if it's a chemical that balance, then they're eminently predictable and the behavior is going to manifest itself over and over again. So if you know what the ear mark, the markers are, what the yellow flags are, then in the first 15 to 30 minutes, you're going to know what you have on your hand. Am I never going to make this deal? Am I being exploited? Or is it just going to take a really long time to make the deal? Now what's the problem with taking a long time to make the deal? My team starts pulling a dap, we come up with the profiles, what they say, and initially if you work for me, you're going to think I work for Chris. Boss, we got to make every deal. No, we don't. Because time is money, relationships are money and time is money. So my team says, all right, so this is what a half looks like. This is their behaviors. Let's measure how long it takes us to make a deal. If we make the deal and they find out from start to finish, it takes two to five times as long to make a deal with a half. So what does that mean? You've at least taken a 50% cut of pay. Now the only time that that 50% cut of pay is worth it is if there's a long tail of business. It's a long relationship reality of life. If they're half for us, we're probably half for them. Which means halfs don't repeat. So there is no long tail, there is no steady ongoing revenue. So you're taking a 50% cut of pay for somebody who's not going to repeat with you. That makes no sense. Wow. And so that if you could lay it out and predict it, then you do what we refer to as the Oprah rule. You politely walk away. The last oppression is the lasting depression. If you sniff out their half or they're using you for free consulting, they're playing you for the fool in the game. If you don't know who the fool in the game is, it's probably you. When we discover that were being played and they may not mean two plays, a lot of people think free consulting is okay, politely walk away. You want to always leave the door open that if they change how they do in business, they want to come back because they remember that you always treated them with respect and say something to the effect of when are you ready to make your mutual commitment? We'd be happy to be the long term supplier that made you wealthy over 20 years. Paint a Picture of the future. And some people will come back because maybe they don't know that they're half. There are a lot of common practices out there that people are taller, good, and they work short term. For example, asking for extra stuff after you've made the deal. It sources way back to some negotiation training from the 1980s. And the guy that was talking about it said, yeah, here's an example. If you're getting suit tailored, when the tailor's measuring you up after you already had the agreement that you got to buy the suit, look at them and say, how many free ties do I get with that? And I see that's popping up today. It's popping up on all the social media. After you make the deal, ask for free stuff and you'll get it. And so they get a reinforcement without knowing it that while this works, I made some more money and other people around you are doing it. So it appears to be an acceptable practice. People on the other end don't communicate to you what kind of a problem that is. We communicate that in a very polite way. There's no doubt in your mind that this is a problem and that we can't continue. We won't say it in a mean way. We won't call your names, we won't insult you. And so if you've learned that practice and you don't know any better, somebody inspired you about negotiations and you did it a few times, you're like, wow, I'm getting free stuff, I'm increasing my bottom line. But you don't mean it maliciously. And a lot of people don't mean these things maliciously. But it's my job is to let you know it's a problem without you feeling insulted and hurt, without attacking you personally. And then if you're good people with a good person, which 70, 80% of the people out there, good people, well, attention, then you go like, oh, oh, all right, all right. If that's going to interfere on our relationship and also interfere in my long term profitability, I'll stop. And we also found with the hash, we got a way of approaching them, letting them know. And we've literally, we've had people say, oh, okay, I'm sorry, I won't do it anymore. So give somebody a shot. I that say, can you turn a zombie back into a human being? Well, here's how you take that shot. And then no matter what, you can say no and still be polite. You could say, this isn't going to work and be respectful and walk away. And I think that's also one of our advantages. And if I'll throw one more thing out while kind of on a roll, nobody that ever deals with us ever wonders what a great deal would look like. We rarely walk away from people. If we've got no deal, then I will say, all right, so here's a deal that I would love to make with you that would make us long term partners for 20 years. Here's what this looks like. If you can't do that, cool. No hard feelings. We won't waste each other's time. But I never want there to be any doubt in your mind what a great deal with me would look like. Because I never want you to wonder, if he had just told me, I would have made that deal. And so then you had the opportunity to knowingly walk away, knowing the door is always open to come back through it. But I never want there to be any doubt in my eye. But then the other side's mind, what a great deal would have looked like. And then you walk away from us. If it doesn't work for you, and I say that's cool if it doesn't work for you. You got your own constraints. Your boss is telling you to do something. There's stuff in your world that I don't know about. I never want there to be any doubt in your mind what a great relationship with me would look like for 20 years. I love that.
- [49:16]
C
Make them feel like they made the decision.
- [49:18]
B
Absolutely. Okay.
- [49:20]
C
Wow. That's powerful stuff right there.
- [49:22]
A
Yeah. It's collaborative, you know, it's. Yeah, you know, we're always selling. What I mean by selling, though, there's many different ways that people will interpret selling. Think of selling as influence, think of marketing as storytelling. And a lot of the conversations we have with people are designed to attract the other, are designed to repel. And the way that you. What? You know, if you. If you learn from the best, you know, people that have truly. They've proven that they have something that works and that they share it, and you get skilled at that. It saves you a tremendous amount of time and angst and to be able to identify. I think there's too much emphasis on persistence. Never give up. Never give up, Never give up. You should give up on shit that doesn't work. You should give up on people that are too much of a pain in the ass. The best way to get out of a hole is quit there. So there are certain things you just. Just quit going down that path. And so a lot of times people are Trained to sell and negotiate. They're trying to do it to everybody. It's like no selection, higher quality ELF people because of timing purposes here. I know we could talk about this all day. The next five to 10 text messages, whatever DMS that you get, phone calls, however someone's reaching you, just check your gut feeling. Do you feel or do you feel, ah, you know, and that's karma. That is the ability to do I feel connected to this person? Because I'll tell you, you look at the next 20 communications you have and you will know if you just give yourself a pause. Is this person elf or is this person hap? Are they showing up with a give or they showed up with a take? Now, I always caution people, if you owe somebody money and they're calling me, it doesn't mean they're the asshole. It means you're at being the asshole. You need to either forget pay them, or if you can't pay them, you need to basically talk to them, communicate. So, yeah, becoming a master of communication doesn't mean you have to be a great orator. It just means that you, in your own mind develop the ability to think, evaluate, discern, protect yourself when you need to be protected and be incredibly, you know, creating value for people.
- [51:37]
B
I'm going to interrupt because there's one more thing about Alpha and a half that I think it's really important that people know, which is why I'm so glad that I learned this from Gerald and adopted it. And it's completely counterintuitive. When you start eliminating the halfs, the else show up. The half has been in line blocking the else. And it's very counterintuitive for people who are scratching. I got to make this month sweat. I got payroll I got to make. And by circumstances, you're forced into short term thinking you've been taken hostage and to say, walk away from these guys and the elves will appear and people will go like, no, that ain't my world. That's not what happened. And the more we adopted that philosophy, thanks to Joe, the halfs are showing up. And it's my view that the elves.
- [52:31]
A
It'S like a lie.
- [52:33]
B
And the halfs are taking up so much time and then blocking our viewers that there's a whole bunch of elves standing in line behind him waiting to get in. If we could just get this half.
- [52:45]
A
Out of the way.
- [52:45]
B
And that's another really important thing about this concept.
- [52:48]
A
No, thank you. Yeah, and it's like our friend Dan Sold says, getting results doesn't take time. It's the not getting results. It takes up all your time getting results. In life, you can happen very quickly if you know what you're doing. But it's all the bullshit, like the sun, the connection, the love. It's always there, but there's clouds in the way. So the more that you can know that sometimes it's going to be stormy. Sometimes you have to be patient. But other times you just need another vantage point. You just need a. You need another approach. And so, and let me say this with, you know, for all the. All the listeners and stuff, I imagine. What's the makeup of your audience?
- [53:24]
C
Mostly on the younger side?
- [53:26]
A
Yeah.
- [53:26]
C
25 to 34. Their biggest age range.
- [53:28]
A
Yeah. You know what. What I hope, like, the question to ask is, what's in it for them when you approach somebody. No one really cares about me. Some people do, but you have to give them a reason to care. And part of that is caring about them. Having standards, operating in a certain way that people will be attracted to you. Learning skills. I've done an interview with Cal Newport. Combination of this first book, which is so good they can't ignore you, and deep work. And we live in a world of shallow. So don't be in the transaction business. Be in the relationship business. If you're working for somebody and had a gut feeling they're not good people or they're not really helping other people, find something else. There's a million ways to make money in the world. It doesn't come easily at first. So the challenge with an elf business versus a half business is oftentimes you have to actually work pretty hard in order to make things become elves. But the effort is worth it. And there's, you know, take care of your health, take care of your relationships. You know, one of my favorite, the proverb is, you know, he or she who has their health has a thousand dreams. He or she who does not has only one. So when you're young, you feel invincible. I mean, you know, when I was 18 years old, in my worst state of cocaine addiction, I waited one week. I had been free basing cocaine every single day for three months straight. And there was one week where I got down to 105 pounds. I burned a hole in one of my molars from the smoking cocaine. And I was suicidal. I've had guns in my mouth. I mean, I felt totally depressed. And it was because I was living in a certain way. I was wrapped up in addiction. And so I got sober from drugs. But I never dealt with the trauma that Came from my childhood stuff. So I still became a millionaire before the age of 30. And that was problem though because when you have money and you're an addiction, you can buy almost anything that your crazy bright could come up with, right? And so, and I was living in shame. I was paying for sex. There was all kinds of stuff because my, my, my emotional stay was trauma and I didn't know who to trust because intimacy was dangerous. I had caretakers in church that actually abused me and I didn't know who to trust. So I kind of danced around help, did a little bit of therapy, went to some 12 step programs, but I never did the steps. And then I realized it's not a, you know, it's not an attendance program, it's a step program. So that, what I'm trying to say is pain is a messenger elf. People don't have as much pain attached to them as half, half people are painful. When you have pain in your life, don't try to nub it with a drug or drinking or escapism. Look at it. What is it trying to, what is it trying to tell me? If your back hurts, if your neck hurts, there's a lot of pain in the world. And if you can be a pain detective and find the pain of other people and help soothe it, eliminate it, assist them with getting out of pain. Not only will you develop a lot of great relationships with people if you're very helpful, but you start noticing the pain in yourself. Wherever there's anxiety, there's opportunity. If people didn't suck and negotiation, Chris Moss would have no reason to try to help people. Same with marketing, same with addiction recovery. So I avoided for a long time doing some of the deep work on myself. But I feel more free, more connected than ever. It doesn't require me now to, you know, like he said, I don't ever poo poo money. You know, people say money is important, try living without it. People that say money can't buy happiness, that's stupid. I buy happiness all the time. Even if you have a lot of money and you're miserable, you can help other people because of making money. So that's fine. You know, if your goals are to make money. The thing though is you have to look at yourself as a vessel. So look at yourself as a million dollar racehorse source. If you had a million dollar, if you had a racehorse and every time that horse ran a race and it won, you made a million dollars, how would you treat that horse? You'd have the best trainers, the best Food, the best nutrition. You would sleep, exhaust the horse. You would have the horse up till 3am you know, a botch of core, the horse fit to be in the race. You wouldn't have the horse hanging out with unethical loser horses. You wouldn't be cheating in the races. You would be, you know, and, and if you treat the horse well, that horse makes you rich. And the punchline is you're the million dollar racehorse. Treat other people well, treat yourself well and continue to learn what events you.
- [58:06]
C
Guys got coming up and where people.
- [58:07]
B
Keep up with the event.
- [58:09]
A
Well, you go first Chris.
- [58:12]
B
In March, in St. Patrick's Day, we're going to take a shot. We've been doing a lot of smaller training events. We're taking a shot at our first big Negotiation Mastery Summit. We're going to be in Louisville.
- [58:28]
C
Interesting city choice.
- [58:30]
B
Yeah, well, you know, at about the same time I'm co founder of a bourbon business, Bourbon different. You'll see that we're going to start shipping it. And so being in and out of Louisville over the last year, tasting the bourbons was a very difficult task. It's very hard work. Tasting bourbon must be difficult.
- [58:53]
A
It's very special.
- [58:56]
B
We thought Louisville is kind of a cool place. It's a different place on the planet. Like how does Kentucky become a place where whiskey's made? And so we're trying to decide where to have the our Negotiation Mastery Summit. Like Dallas is cool. Everybody goes to Dallas. You know, there's a number of places that people are always going to because they're great places to host conferences. And we're like, you know, let's go, let's hold our conference in Louisa. People might get a kick out of being here. There's a practical reason for everything. And there's that practical, very unusual reason why Kentucky is one of the places where the greatest whiskey in the world is made. There's water available there that's only available in two or three places on earth. Really? Yeah. And so we're going to have a big conference that teaches as many people as we can how to make a big joke. You come to a two day training anywhere. If you pay attention, you'll make a quantum leap in your ability. Now you could probably make as much progress in two days in a great conference as you would make in eight months or a year. Otherwise that's on you to keep going. Our summit in March or will it get immediately People make quantum leaps. So the website is blackswanltd.com E L A C K S W-A N L T D.com Come to the website. We got a lot of stuff for free so that you can start making a difference in your negotiating abilities now. And one of the things I heard Jordan say, I thought in a recent interview was incremental change has exponential results. So start getting better at negotiation a little bit at a time. Get ready for the negotiation mastery summit and then you'll come there and you'll make a quantum leap.
- [60:58]
A
So still it what about you? Now the only events that I do that are open to the public are once a year. And so that's the genius I work annual event. Those for people that have to make at least no effects a year to even attend. So for the vast majority of listeners I have no idea where they're at. What I would say someone's struggling with addiction. I have a 501C3 geniusrecovery.org, it's just resources for people that are struggling. I have a recovery clone companion. I also have askjoepolish.com, which is my my AI club. They can ask any questions about business, about anything. And if you can write up a marketing plan, it's free. So and then Joe's freebook.com is my book Life gives to the giver and it's just a really damn good book. And I don't put people into an upsell funnel that just chances sell them good stuff by giving them a crappy book. I give people a really great book for free and then if they they like it, they can look into their stuff that I do. Yeah my events are usually around November, the big events but yeah miles are.
- [62:05]
C
SPAC based come knowledge I'm in those fonts.
- [62:07]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good luck to all your listeners and great being here.
- [62:10]
B
So it's having stars that's a wrap boom.