How Trauma Shapes Law Enforcement: A Candid Talk | Joe Smarro DSH #873

Summary

Summary of "Digital Social Hour" Podcast Episode: How Trauma Shapes Law Enforcement: A Candid Talk | Joe Smarrow DSH #873

Podcast Information:

• Title: Digital Social Hour
• Host: Sean Kelly
• Guest: Joe Smarrow
• Episode Title: How Trauma Shapes Law Enforcement: A Candid Talk | Joe Smarrow DSH #873
• Release Date: November 10, 2024
• Description: Sean Kelly engages in a deep conversation with Joe Smarrow, exploring the profound impacts of trauma on law enforcement officers. The discussion delves into personal anecdotes, systemic issues within policing, mental health challenges, and actionable insights for creating positive change.

---

Introduction

Sean Kelly welcomes Joe Smarrow as the first guest from San Antonio, expressing gratitude for his participation. The conversation begins with a brief exchange about Joe’s background and upbringing, setting the stage for a candid discussion about trauma and its effects on law enforcement personnel.

---

Joe Smarrow’s Background and Path to Policing

Joe Smarrow recounts his journey from Upstate New York to Southern California, and eventually to San Antonio. His decision to join the Marine Corps was influenced by personal circumstances, particularly becoming a father in high school.

• Key Quote:

  "[...] I was definitely the only reason I joined the Marine Corps was because I had my first kid my senior year of high school."
  (00:59)

Joe’s transition from the military to the police force was driven by practicality, seeking stability through a pension and consistent employment benefits post his service in the Marine Corps.

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The Impact of Military Culture on Policing

The discussion highlights the similarities between military and police cultures, particularly the paramilitary mindset that emphasizes constant vigilance and preparedness, often fostering power dynamics that contribute to current policing issues.

• Key Quote:

  "It creates a lot of the issues that cops are facing today. Right."
  (04:00)

Joe points out that approximately 30-35% of law enforcement officers have prior military experience, which influences their approach to policing but may not always align with community-oriented practices.

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Personal Trauma and Its Effects on Policing

Joe opens up about his childhood trauma, including sexual and physical abuse, and how these unaddressed issues carried into his adult life and career in law enforcement. His narrative underscores the importance of recognizing and addressing personal trauma to prevent it from negatively impacting interactions with the community.

• Key Quote:

  "If you're just to look back like 72 hours of what I call a situational autopsy and just look into this officer's life, I guarantee you there's more going on."
  (06:00)

Joe shares a pivotal moment when he unintentionally caused an in-custody death early in his police career, exacerbating his mental health struggles and leading to a deep personal crisis.

• Key Quote:

  "I'm putting out for eight weeks thinking I'm gonna lose my job. The media portrays this guy by his name [...] and I'm contributing to someone else's death."
  (07:00)

---

Mental Health Challenges in Law Enforcement

Joe discusses the prevalence of mental health issues among police officers, attributing a significant portion of officer misconduct and tragic outcomes to unaddressed trauma and lack of support within the system.

Lack of Adequate Mental Health Training

A critical point raised is the insufficient mental health training provided to officers, with only about 50% receiving proper training even as of 2024.

• Key Quote:

  "About 50% of the police officers still don't have mental health training. Whoa. In 2024."
  (25:22)

Joe emphasizes the necessity for comprehensive training that goes beyond basic presentations to include continuous education and practical de-escalation techniques.

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Personal Journey Towards Healing and Advocacy

Joe shares his personal transformation through therapy and self-help, becoming a beacon of hope for others struggling with similar issues. His dedication to mental health extends to founding Solution Point Plus, a company focused on training first responders in de-escalation and mental well-being.

• Key Quote:

  "The more I was willing to help myself, the more I could see myself in other people and realize that even if you have a serious mental illness, you're not different than me."
  (15:10)

Joe's advocacy work includes speaking at conferences and conducting keynote sessions, where his authentic sharing of trauma resonates deeply with first responders.

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Systemic Issues and Proposed Reforms in Policing

Joe critiques the current policing system, highlighting how dependence on pensions traps officers in unfulfilling and traumatic careers. He calls for significant reforms, including:

1. Mandatory Mental Health Training: Regular, in-depth training to prepare officers for the psychological demands of the job.
2. Higher Wages: Increasing police salaries to attract and retain better-trained individuals.
3. Age and Education Requirements: Setting a minimum age of 25 for officers and requiring at least two years of experience in health and human services.
4. Comprehensive Support Systems: Implementing mandatory therapy and continuous mental health support from the onset of an officer’s career.

• Key Quote:

  "Why is there not a requirement for proficiency and liability to train our minds to not suffer?"
  (48:44)

Joe advocates for treating mental health training with the same importance as firearms training, ensuring officers are equipped to handle both the physical and psychological aspects of their roles.

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The Vicious Cycle of Trauma and Suicide in Law Enforcement

A poignant part of the conversation centers on the high rates of suicide among police officers, positioning it as the leading cause of death in the profession. Joe attributes this to unprocessed trauma, lack of support, and societal pressures.

• Key Quote:

  "Suicide is the number one killer of policing."
  (45:56)

Joe discusses how the normalization of mental health struggles and the stigma surrounding seeking help prevent officers from accessing the support they need, perpetuating a cycle of despair.

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The Role of Community and Societal Stigma

The conversation extends to the societal perception of police officers and the lack of empathy towards their mental health struggles. Joe argues that the community often fails to understand the internal battles officers face, exacerbating tensions and misunderstandings.

• Key Quote:

  "We don't watch other videos of cops doing dumb things nearly as much as we watch the citizens of our communities ambushing us."
  (40:36)

Joe calls for a cultural shift in how society views and supports law enforcement, advocating for greater awareness and empathy towards the psychological challenges officers encounter.

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Joe Smarrow’s Vision for a Healthier Policing System

Joe envisions a policing system where officers are mentally and emotionally supported, allowing them to perform their duties without the burden of unaddressed trauma. His solutions focus on proactive mental health care, continuous training, and systemic reforms to create a sustainable and humane law enforcement environment.

• Key Quote:

  "If we don't learn to love ourselves and prioritize ourselves, you're going to be a shell of the person you could be."
  (51:13)

Joe emphasizes the importance of self-care and personal growth for officers, suggesting that prioritizing their well-being enhances their ability to serve the community effectively.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Sean Kelly and Joe Smarrow conclude the discussion by reaffirming the necessity of addressing trauma within law enforcement. Joe provides resources for listeners to connect with him and his work, encouraging ongoing dialogue and action to reform policing practices.

• Contact Information:

  • Books on Amazon
  • Website: JoeSmarrow.com and SolutionPointPlus.com

• Key Quote:

  "Our stories are what unite us... sharing them from a place of truth."
  (31:13)

Sean expresses his appreciation for Joe’s insights and the impactful message he brings to the forefront, highlighting the importance of such conversations in fostering understanding and change.

---

Key Takeaways

1. Unaddressed Trauma: Many law enforcement officers carry unresolved trauma from childhood and military service, which negatively impacts their roles as police officers.
2. Mental Health Crisis: The lack of adequate mental health training and support systems within policing contributes to high rates of suicide and misconduct among officers.
3. Systemic Reforms Needed: Comprehensive changes, including mandatory mental health training, higher wages, age and education requirements, and continuous support, are essential for improving the well-being of law enforcement personnel.
4. Cultural Shift: Society must adopt a more empathetic and supportive stance towards officers, recognizing their mental health struggles and fostering a community of understanding and assistance.
5. Personal Accountability and Growth: Officers must prioritize self-care and personal growth to effectively serve their communities and break free from the cycle of trauma and despair.

---

This episode of Digital Social Hour offers a profound exploration of the intersection between trauma and law enforcement, providing valuable insights and actionable solutions to create a healthier, more empathetic policing environment.

Transcript

[Joe Smarrow]

In the military, especially if they've never deployed into an active combat zone and now they're police officers. But it's very similar culture of, like, it's, you know, the world is dangerous, you're going to die. You always got to be prepared. And, you know, I think it creates a lot of the issues that cops are facing. Right.

[Sean]

Like power dynamics. Right.

[Joe Smarrow]

Big time.

[Sean]

Yeah. Certain cops.

[Joe Smarrow]

You.

[Sean]

I mean, the videos are viral. You could see they. They're obviously dealing with some trauma that's unaddressed, and they're now taking it out on people. All right, guys, first guest ever from San Antonio, we got Joe Smarrow here today. Thanks for representing, man.

[Joe Smarrow]

Absolutely, Sean. Thank you, brother. Appreciate it.

[Sean]

You born and raised there?

[Joe Smarrow]

No, I'm from New York, actually. Yeah. Upstate New York, about three and a half hours north of the city, straight up the Hudson river in a small town called Lake Lucerne. Very small.

[Sean]

Yeah. I've been to upstate once. I actually thought it was beautiful.

[Joe Smarrow]

It is. It is. And then when I. And we'll talk about it. But when I joined the Marine Corps, I was stationed in Southern California. And so when I got out, I was like, I do not want to go back to the winters of it. It's beautiful, but the winter's not for me. And so that's how I ended up.

[Sean]

In San Antonio, Especially the upstate. Oh, man. You're probably getting a foot of snow a week easily.

[Joe Smarrow]

Easily. Snow days were fun as a kid, but. Yeah, I just thought living there as an adult, having to be responsible for all of that.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Joe Smarrow]

Was not appealing to me.

[Sean]

Oh. As a kid, they were my favorite memories when school got snowed out.

[Joe Smarrow]

Yep.

[Sean]

I mean, it's hard to beat that.

[Joe Smarrow]

I had an old Buick and we would take it to the parking lot of the school when it's closed and just do donuts and slam in the snow banks. Because we kids.

[Sean]

I love it, man. Yeah. Sometimes I miss the innocence of being a kid.

[Joe Smarrow]

Absolutely.

[Sean]

I feel like as we get older, we get so inundated.

[Joe Smarrow]

Serious, like. Yeah, I've too serious.

[Sean]

And then we're taught to shut down once we're getting in the mental side of things. Just not open up about anything.

[Joe Smarrow]

Yep.

[Sean]

Or else you're seen as weak.

[Joe Smarrow]

100, which everything I'm fighting against. Yeah.

[Sean]

Right. So when you were in the Marines, did you experience that?

[Joe Smarrow]

Quite a bit. And I, you know, I grew up fast in the Marine Corps. You know, I tell people in life, you're either running from something or towards something. And I was definitely the Only reason I joined the Marine Corps was because I had my first kid my senior year of high school.

[Sean]

Whoa.

[Joe Smarrow]

Don't recommend. And the Marine Corps recruiter did a great job. He came in and was like, hey, buddy, I hear you're having a baby. And I was like, yeah, you know. Cause I wanted to go to college to play soccer. I was actually a stud, believe it or not, back then. And. And. But when you have a baby, it changes things. And my daughter will be 25 now, next month. And. But, you know, he did a great job of just reassuring me that, hey, we're going to help out, you know, you won't have to worry financially. Health care, it's all covered. What he didn't do a great job of was giving me some guarantees that, you know, I'm a naive kid, right? And he was asking me things like, what do you want to do? And I said, play soccer. He said, the Marine Corps has a soccer team. I was like, word? He said, where do you want to be stationed? I said, the northeast. He's like, all right, man, we got you. Do you want to deploy? I said, no. And he was like, awesome. So non deployable Northeast soccer. I was like, yep. And I signed a contract. And the only thing that came true of that was I played soccer one time in Iraq against shoeless children. So, yeah, he didn't lie to me per se, but it wasn't exactly what I had in mind.

[Sean]

So maybe some white lies. Yeah. Do you think he kind of preyed on your insecurities at the time?

[Joe Smarrow]

You know, I don't. I don't think it was intentional. So I joined in 2000. So it was pre 9 11.

[Sean]

Okay.

[Joe Smarrow]

And everything was pretty normal. You know, in the Marine Corps, they tell you it's about the needs of the Marine Corps. It's not about you. And so when I got stationed in Southern California, I was terrified because I was so young. You know, I'd never left my family or home. And so moving out to Southern California was a rude awakening for me. It was a culture shock being from upstate New York. And then when 911 happened, I find myself deployed into Afghanistan. And I'm like, what is happening right now? Like, I'm supposed to be in college playing soccer, and I. And that's something that, you know, I really. It took me a long time to realize that I was just kind of a passenger in my own life. You know, even why I joined the police department was because when I got out of the Marine Corps at 22, I didn't have a college degree. I had no real life experiences. And so then I just was like, well, what should I do next? You know, and I moved down to San Antonio. What has a good pension, health care, kind of consistent to the military is policing. And I think that's a problem. But it was just an easy transition into policing. But it probably was not the best transition for me.

[Sean]

Yeah, I've heard a lot of former military join the police. Right. I wonder what percentage.

[Joe Smarrow]

So, so it's actually, I researched this and it's, it was lower than I thought. It was about 30%, 30 to 35% of law enforcement's prior military, which is fascinating because I thought it would be much higher. As much as you hear law enforcement agencies talk about being paramilitary, and I've never been a fan of that since I've done both. And I think a lot of police officers that they, they have this gung ho spirit, this, this idea that they are in this like paramilitaristic organization, kind of losing sight of the fact that you're actually just serving your community and it's not a war zone in most cities in America. And, but the mindset is, is a huge issue of, you know, people who have never been in the military, especially if they've never deployed into an active combat zone and now they're police officers. But it's very similar culture of like, it's, you know, the world is dangerous, you're going to die, you always got to be prepared. And you know, I think it creates a lot of the issues that cops are facing today. Right.

[Sean]

Like power dynamics. Right.

[Joe Smarrow]

Big time.

[Sean]

Yeah. Certain cops, you, I mean, the videos are viral. You could see they, they're obviously dealing with some trauma that's unaddressed and they're now taking it out on people.

[Joe Smarrow]

Yeah. And, and it's. I don't know if you realize the insight of that statement, Sean, that you say is, is someone that hasn't. You weren't in the military or police. Right. Yeah. And so, but that insight is, is profound because so few police officers or people in the community to that matter, re recognize that, you know, they, they really don't understand that anytime you see a viral video of an officer losing their mind or they're on the side of the highway just losing their, on somebody knowing they're on camera, knowing people are filming them, knowing it's going to get out. What I've always said is it has nothing to do with that person in that moment. If you were just to look back like 72 hours of what I call a situational autopsy and just look into this officer's life. I guarantee you there's more going on. Something's going on at home, some needs not being met. He's not sleeping, he's. Something's wrong. And again, it's hard to have empathy because the expectations are so high in policing. It's because you have all this authority. You're supposed to get it perfectly right every time. But people forget that like cops are just people and they're just as. The brains are the same. We, we struggle. And when we have a culture that doesn't really afford the opportunity to come forward and say, I'm not doing well because of fear of discipline, punishment, taking your gun away, putting you on the bench, allowing you not to do your job, then a lot of them are like, well, I'm just going to keep this in. And it just leads to a lot of the issues that you're talking about, where it's going to come out somewhere. What I tell people is when you don't listen to the words of someone, the behavior is always going to reveal the truth. And that's when you see someone acting out. It's a cry for help, right? It's, it's a, it's a call for love. It's a call for something. But instead, many police agencies will just throw the book at them and punish them. Be like, you violated this SOP. Now you get a one day or a five day or 30 day suspension. Now that officer, how they internalize that is. I'm struggling personally. I did this thing at work which was a mistake, and now I'm being punished for it. I guess I am just a piece of shit. And now I'm just like, what's the point anymore? And they really start to become hard on themselves and it kind of just pushes the issue further and further along and makes it worse and worse.

[Sean]

Right. And then you see alcoholism, you see some drug issues come into play, and it amplifies everything big time. So you spent 11 years on the mental health unit, so I didn't know Please Stations had that.

[Joe Smarrow]

Yeah. And it's, it's getting more and more popular when. So ours started back in 2009 as a pilot project and it was, you know, one of the first. They've been around for a while, but not a lot, especially large agencies. And so, you know, we started in 2009 as a pilot program. There was two officers that, you know, pushed it a lot of data because data sells everything in law enforcement. And so the the chief was like, yep, this is good. Let's make it a unit. And when it became a full unit, it was only four of us. And that's when I applied and got it. And I was like, this is amazing. Like, this to me is what police work should be. And. But I'll be honest, Sean, I was a hypocrite for the first 18 months or so. And I know we're not technically in order on this, but I was a mess when I got into policing. I was not well, but it was really masked. And just to go back, if you don't mind, to just give context, you know, I had a lot of childhood trauma growing up. You know, sexual abuse Starting at 7 years old, a lot of physical abuse from my father up until about 15 or so when I was like, I just. I'm not going to deal with this anymore. After my parents split because my parents were married. My dad was in the Navy and he was on a routine med float deployment. We were down in Norfolk, Virginia, and my mom, you know, had an affair. And that guy started, you know, not just with my mom, but also molesting me. And. Wow. And that went on for a while. And, you know, at some point, you know, I mentioned that this is happening and it gets dismissed as. Which is common of like, you know, for my mother saying, like, hey, that's not happening. We don't say that.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Joe Smarrow]

And back to my point earlier of when you make an outcry and it's not received, then you're going to do something. So we're on base housing. My sister's 10, I'm 7. My mom's sleeping on the couch. It's a weekend. I go into her purse. She used to be a smoker. I grabbed a book of matches. I go into my bedroom, shut the door. I'm laying underneath my bed and I'm trying to set my bed on fire. And eventually, after several matches, the bed catches on fire. I panic, I roll out, go bang on the door, tell my sister, get out of the tub, wake up my mom. And we go outside. And the fire department shows up quick. It didn't burn the house down, but it burnt the bed, the floor, and part of the wall. And I'm standing outside, not really realizing the severity of what I had done. But I'll never forget this moment. The fireman walks out to me. Now, I believe truly that most all people are doing the best they can with what they have based on what they know. And this fireman didn't know any better. But I wish in this moment because he came out real aggressive and he was like, young man, like what we call the knife hand in the Marine Corps, right? He goes, young man, if you ever start another fire again, you'll spend the rest of your life in prison. You understand me? And I was like, whoa. So I started crying. I'm like, I don't want to go to prison. And a lot of the work I do now with our company, Solution Point plus is we teach de escalation techniques to first responders, but not just first responders. Healthcare workers, social workers, teachers, it doesn't matter. But we teach human behavior of how to slow down. I write about it a lot in the book, but I say everything begins with curiosity. Focus on the person, not the problem, right? If that fireman would have thought like, surely this is not a 7 year old arsonist, right? Let me pull him to the side and just be like, hey, buddy, what's going on? Like, why did you do this? Is there something happening in the house that you're trying to tell us? And you know, instead of being offered help or hope, I was threatened and the abuse continued. Eventually, you know, my sister gets a hold of our grandmother and you know, my dad ends up having to get pushed out of the Navy with 12 years. Finds out his wife's cheating on him, his kid's been molested, so he becomes an alcoholic. And I went from school to school to school, different family member, grandparent, just all of the, all over the place. And my dad had like three relationships after my mom and every one of them was abusive. Every one of them openly cheated on him.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Joe Smarrow]

And I was just like, it was terrible. But my nickname was Smiley and I was the class clown. But I was acutely suicidal at 15 years old. I was just so tired of all the suffering and the pain and no one knowing about it. But I also, as a kid, you don't know how to use your words in that way. So I got involved in sports and just trying to really avoid and distract feeling anything. And then that's how I have my kid, right? It was because I was just an irresponsible kid that wasn't guided, didn't. And it's not an excuse. I just, I didn't have any parental love. So I have my kid go to the Marine Corps. Two tours. Traumatizes the hell out of me. I'll never be a combat veteran that says, you know, I'm a hero. I didn't belong over there. I was trained for it for sure. The Marine Corps Did a great job. But the first time I shot and killed someone in Iraq, I broke, I went into a dark place, man. And the fact that I got celebrated for it and my gunnery sergeant came up and was like chanting, proud of me, happy, like. And I was like, dude, this is not feel good to me. But I got to survive it. And I became really good at just surviving the darkness. And so then I get on the police department 364 days into my policing career. Our probation period is one year. One day before probation, you're still an at will employee. And I get a call for a guy yelling in a parking lot, screaming, basketball shorts, no shirt, no shoes. I pull up, there he is just staring off into space, flat affect, trying to talk to him. He won't engage, like, hey man, I got to get you identified. Welcome to my car. As soon as we get to the car, he pulls away, punches me, fights on. I call for help. It was right at shift change, 7 minutes, 24 seconds before COVID showed up, which is a long time to fight, as you know. And as soon as we got no asp, no taser, no pepper spray, nothing. As soon as we got him handcuffed, he died right there in our. So I have an in custody death. I'm put out for eight weeks thinking I'm gonna lose my job. The media portrays, you know, this, this guy by his name, 35 year old, father of five, killed by the police. And I'm like, I got out of the military because I was tired of being around death. And now here I am as a cop contributing to someone else's death. Now he was on so much cocaine. The autopsy revealed his heart was like enlarged four times what it should have been. But you know, it just, it put me into a dark, dark place where I was like, I can't escape death, I can't escape darkness. And I'm not proud of this, but truly like, and I'm thank God that my, my vice was never alcohol or heroin or meth or anything that has like a criminal element. But it was women. And that was my drug. And I hated myself. I was a super insecure man. I didn't believe I deserved love or anything good. So then I would use women to validate me. And that's how by the time I was 30 years old, I already had three divorces, four kids from three women. And, and, and now I'm on the mental health unit, showing up every day telling people the greatest advice in the world, just if you just take your meds and go to the doctor and do everything you're supposed to do. You won't have to worry about the police showing up and being mad. But it was about 18 months into my mental health career. I was like, I'm the. I'm a problem. And this was 15 years ago. And I walked into the VA and I was like, look, in San Antonio, you know, we've got the center for Intrepid. We've got level one burn centers. Like, I'm used to seeing people very physically injured, and I'm like, I'm fine. Like, I survived the military, and it was my therapist really quickly that started teaching me about the mental side of, like, man, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not real. And now I'm service connected, disabled through the military. I've been in treatment for 15 years now. I still go every month, and it's been a huge, huge blessing for me. But what I learned is the more I was willing to help myself, the more I could see myself in other people and realize that even if you have a serious mental illness, like schizoaffective disorder or you're on methamphetamine, you're not different than me. You're just in a different place than me. And now I can be this beacon of hope for somebody that's in their darkest place. Because while it might not be the exact same, I've never struggled with drugs. But again, what I call the four plagues of the first responder is chips, tits, Netflix, and Sprints, the things that we will use to avoid feeling anything. Right? And so, yeah, maybe you don't use meth, but you're addicted to food or alcohol. And then it's like, well, this whole compare and despair thing of, like, well, it's not that bad. So I guess it's not bad at all. It's bad. And we know that if we're doing these things behaviorally to avoid feeling something, there's a. There's an issue there.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Joe Smarrow]

And so it's just. It's been my life's work now, man. And I. I still. It feels selfish. Every time I go to therapy, it's like, yes, this is for me first, always. But how can I use what I'm going through and what I'm learning right now to heal, to help someone else, whether it's in my speaking, my teaching, my writing, whatever it is? Because I don't. I don't feel like anything is unique in this world. And we're all just trying to Figure it out and experience the same thing. Right?

[Sean]

Absolutely.

[Joe Smarrow]

That's. It's. That's a little bit of the high level background of me, man.

[Sean]

Love it, man. Thanks for sharing all that. So 18 months into the mental health unit, you was there a specific moment that caused you to realize my wife.

[Joe Smarrow]

Leaving me and your third wife, or was it so my second and third wife are the same? Because I go hard at life, Sean. So I married her twice. And, you know, she's leaving me saying, hey, I hate you, but something is seriously wrong. Like something's not right. And. And I believed it. You know, I just, again, it was so hard for me to accept that. And, you know, it was her I was so frustrated of, like, you know, I'm having kids that I don't get to raise. I just, I wanted a family, but it was like, why is this not working? Why do I. And I learned that, as my therapist told me, like, Joe, you thrive in chaos. Right? When things are going well for you, you panic. So you're gonna sabotage yourself. So whatever that is. So, like, oh, if I'm in a relationship, my wife starts treating me really well, or my girlfriends treat me well, it's like, how can I ruin this? Because I don't trust it's gonna last. Right? And so, because I know she's gonna leave me, she's gonna cheat on me, just like everyone else did growing up in my family, you know, to my father, for sure, this is gonna happen to me. And so because I'm so confident in that, let me hurry up and do it myself, and then I don't have to feel that pain. I was the one causing it. And again, I truly believe now as a 42 year old, like, everything is my fault. Everything is my fault. Like, I have to take ownership. What happened to me as a kid wasn't my fault. Everything I do now as an adult is my fault. And the saying to help me with this is that, you know, I've learned to become grateful for the things I wish never happened. And truly turning those, Those dark moments into gratitude so that I can heal those. And now, again, empower and help other people that are struggling.

[Sean]

Love it. Yeah, I had that self sabotage too. Now a woman, though, with friends, okay, I would get too close and then cut them off, man. But it was all stem. Yeah, stem from trauma.

[Joe Smarrow]

Right.

[Sean]

So I had to fix that. And now I have some real friendships, I'm proud to say, but awesome. Yeah. Back then they were all just putting on a show. Wasn't actually my friend So I had some trauma from that, I think, but now I'm just myself, which is the.

[Joe Smarrow]

Beauty of it all. Right. It's. It's also very freeing. You know, it's like you have a. Most people have their representative self, the self that I create, that I'm. That I allow other people to see or experience. But, you know, it's like if the only thing in life that truly matters is how you feel about yourself when you're by yourself, then how you living, I love that. And if the scariest place in the world for a man to be is alone in their thoughts, so many people avoid it. Right. And so I tell people just, it's kind of an invitation. But think about this. Tonight, when you lay down and go to bed, right before you fall asleep, there's that moment. Even if you have chaos in your bedroom, a spouse, kids, pets, whatever, right before you fall asleep, you're just. It's quiet. And where does your mind go? A lot of people, you're either future tripping about something that's not yet here, or you're past dwelling on something that's already done. And we really rob ourselves of the present moment, of just experiencing gratitude of what is like, I'm in a bed, hopefully. Right. If you're listening to this and you have access to podcast, I imagine you probably also have a bed or some means. I'm financially, you know, I'm employed, I'm safe. Like, we just lose perspective of the things that actually matter. And I love what you said, Shaun, of. Because I tell people, I think there's few people in the world that truly, genuinely know who they are. They have an idea of who they think they want to be. They have an idea of who they feel safe around with other people. But if you were to really reveal the truth of who you are, what would that look like? And would people start kind of backing away, like, ah, this guy's weird, or like, doesn't jive with me? I don't know. And so I'm glad that you found that and that you stepped into your truth band and it clearly seems to be working for you.

[Sean]

Yeah, no, it's powerful. It's great being able to sleep at night knowing, you know, I'm giving it my all. I'm living in the present. When I was growing up, I lived in the past, probably every day until after college, honestly, just worrying about what people think about me, where I went wrong in conversations. But that's. That's a bad way to live.

[Joe Smarrow]

Absolutely.

[Sean]

In the past.

[Joe Smarrow]

Yeah. I Call it the disease to people, please. And many people have it right? It's this idea that, you know, and so many people live their lives in accordance with other people's expectations of them, whether it's family, parents, schools, society. Based on who you are, what you are, you should be your environment. Coming up. You know, a lot of people don't realize that the single greatest predictor in our country to predict the success of an adult into, from childhood into adulthood is their zip code. So based on that zip code, it's like, this is what the my world is telling me I'm supposed to be, and I'm going to fulfill that. But the ones that actually get outside again for me, you know, I've been a father since I was a kid. I've lived paycheck to paycheck my entire adult life, even as a cop, you know, making 105, $110,000 on paper. But I've got all these union dues, insurance, three grand a month in child support, and I'm making like 1600 bucks a month.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Joe Smarrow]

And struggling. And then it wasn't until I resigned from the Police Department in 2020, have the business and just really got out of my own way to realize, like, wait a minute, I actually can do more with my life, can help more people, and then in return, I can make a greater return on my, on my time and make more money, which allows me to do more things for more people, including my kids, my family. And it's just. But a lot of people never escape it, especially first responders, I call it. They become prisoners to the pension. And they're so miserable, they're so unhappy, but they're like, wow, Joe, I just got to make it to the end. I'm like, when's the end? Like, 17, 18 years. I'm like, and you're unhappy? They're like, yeah. And I'm like, that sucks, man.

[Sean]

That's way too long.

[Joe Smarrow]

Sucks.

[Sean]

Those are your prime years, too, big time.

[Joe Smarrow]

Because that was me, you know, I, I, I didn't get a pension. I had 15 years in, and all my peers, many of them were like, joe, you're, you're an idiot. You're gonna waste five years. You're gonna, you're gonna waste 15 years of your life because you want to leave five years before your pension. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm not happy anymore. Like, this doesn't fill me anymore. I don't want to do this anymore. And they're like, yeah, but none of us are like, you just stick it out. And I'm like, that's terrible. That's terrible. And they're so negative, you know, and, and then some of the ones I still talk to her that are still there and they know, like, this is not filling me, but this is a 5% year on my pension, so I just got to ride it out because I get 5 more percent and next year is 5 more percent and then 3 more percent and they just stay really unhappy. And I'm like, you're just waiting death. That's all you're doing, man. Like, what quality, what quality of life is that? And I just, again, now that I, I've been on the other side of this, it's like I want to scream it from the root, which is why I truly appreciate this is like people that are in, you know, first responder roles or the military or people that are in these careers where it's like 20 to 30 year expectations, that's not the norm anymore, right? Learn a skill, develop something that you're passionate about, and then if it's, if it's still working for you, great, Right. But if it's not, then like, what else could you do where you actually feel excited to go to bed and wake up the next day to do it again? And a lot of police officers I meet all over the country, not so much. You know, there are some for sure, but a lot of them are just so unhappy and miserable and yet won't change it, you know, they just won't do anything about it. And they just want to like stay in that victim mindset, which is really unfortunate because again, it leads to how can I feel the, feel this pain, which is usually alcohol pornography, extramarital affairs, or things that ooze out on duty, which is, you know, pursuits they're not supposed to be in, Going a little too hard on a use of force, instigating a use of force when it wasn't really required. You know, a statement that will be a little controversial probably is, you know, this is my opinion, I've worked all over North America is about 50% of the time in our country. I really believe that when a police officer uses force, it's their fault, meaning it's our fault. The police officer, and I don't, I hope this, I hope people will listen to this part too is I'm not blaming them completely, but if you're not trained, if you're not educated, if you don't know what you're dealing with, we do not like to feel insecure. Or uninformed about something. There are so many cops that do not have any training on mental health, and yet we become the de facto responders for all things. And so if someone in the community sees a person out in the street eating a curb, half naked or fully naked, floridly psychotic, and they call the police, and the police have no training to deal with this. And they're like, hey, stop doing that. The guy's like, I'm seeing things that aren't here, like fully psychotic. And they're like, hey, stop doing that. Come here. Get out of the street. And they're like panicked. Then they go to try to snatch them up. Person pulls away. Now they're full on in a fight. People are recording it, like, why are you fighting this poor homeless person that's in crisis? And the cops, like, I don't know what else to do. That's not their fault. Right. That's the agency's fault. That's the city or the community's fault for not funding proper training. If you have an expectation to call us for everything, there should also be an expectation that you're going to prepare them to train. Which is again why we offer that service in our company through training them and how to identify what's happening in a mental health crisis, how to connect with them so you don't have to utilize force. Because in those 11 years you mentioned, Sean, with SAPD, which again, a lot of people don't know. San Antonio is the seventh largest city in the country.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Joe Smarrow]

Our police department is the 13th largest in the country. I did 11 years on the department. Over 8,400 human contacts. The sickest of the sick. Not one use of force.

[Sean]

Dang.

[Joe Smarrow]

Not one. And how do I get compliance every time now, luck played a role because I went into homes where people were shooting through the floor down to me. I got lucky sometimes, but not 8,400 plus times. And to understand that, you know, there's a form of manipulation, but for mutually beneficial outcomes. Not just what's good for me selfishly, but also what's good for you, even if you don't know what's good for you because you're sick. And how do you teach these skills? If we don't teach these officers how to do this, then they're only going to go back to what they know, which is their academy. Taught them how to ask, tell, make, escalate force. Verbal presence, Verbal, you know, your physical presence. Verbal command, give orders, they don't comply, then snatch them up.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Joe Smarrow]

And that's A rapid escalation which just doesn't fly anymore. And we know departments aren't supporting their officers as much when something bad happens because everything's on camera now. And then there's a lot of societal pressure put on them of that officer's in the wrong. What are you going to do about it? And now with lawsuits and everything else, it's just, it's really unfortunate. I just think we need to do a better job of preparing and training the officers, but not just for the skill of de escalation, but for the mindset of how do I mitigate this trauma? How can I go home safely and effectively so that I can be emotionally available to my family and not just go home, sink into the chair, crack a beer, not sleep well, be pissed off, go back to work again and do it for 25 years?

[Sean]

Absolutely. So do they teach any of this to officers right now? Any of this preventative stuff?

[Joe Smarrow]

Some. Not, not every officer, no. And there's 18,000 police departments in this country. The numbers fluctuate, but let's just call it about roughly 700,000 sworn officers. The research, and it's now a couple years old. But the last research I saw was that about 50% of the police officers still don't have mental health training. Whoa. In 2024.

[Sean]

It's a lot.

[Joe Smarrow]

Yeah, it's great for the business. Right. My total addressable markets there. But, but yeah, no, it's, it's, they, they, they do not have it, whether it's in the academy or it's afterwards. And the training is crisis intervention team training. It's a 40 hour training. But even that is just an introductory. Right. Like there needs to be more, there needs to be refreshers, there needs to be a lot of role play scenarios with like some stress inoculation and things like that. But just to give someone like a mental health PowerPoint and just talk about what mental health is, is not effective.

[Sean]

Crazy, right?

[Joe Smarrow]

You got to run them through the paces because again, these are the officers taking these calls and they don't know how to deal with it. So it's, it's, it's really unfortunate.

[Sean]

And now with this mental health epidemic, you probably caught the beginning of it because you resigned in 2020. But their, their phones must be off the hooks. Right. With cases like this.

[Joe Smarrow]

Big time. Yeah. In fact, in San Antonio, the, when I left, our mental health unit, I believe was at 10 officers and three clinicians. And I was just talking to one of my buddies that's still there and he said they're up to like 42 officers now. Holy crap. Just in four years. So. And that's just in our city. Right. So they're expanding wherever they can. We do a lot of work helping other agencies get their set up as well. Starting out from scratch, whether it's a co responder program where now, you know, clinicians are starting to ride out with police officers and doing a co response. So there's a lot of different ways to kind of get to the same thing. But yes, mental health has just become so prevalent since COVID And same with suicide. Like last year was the highest recorded rate of suicides in our country since they've recorded them.

[Sean]

Wow. And you don't hear that on the news.

[Joe Smarrow]

Not at all. And the thing that's bizarre to me too, Sean, is that, you know, there's also a rapid increase in resources. And so as resources are continuing to rise, so are the numbers of suicide. And that's the thing is, like, if we can solve, like, why is it that now, I mean, more people are talking about it, professional athletes are coming out talking about mental health. There's more support than ever before. There's a lot of resources, more than we've ever had in the history of our country. And yet suicide continues to rise. So then it makes you wonder like, well, what is going on then? Like, what are we missing? And again, I think it's just a culture. I think it's a, you know, social media has done something where people think they're more connected than ever before because they've got X amount of followers. But truly there's a lot of isolation and depression. You know, anxiety and depression are the two most common mental health diagnoses worldwide.

[Sean]

Absolutely.

[Joe Smarrow]

There's so much suffering in silence especially too. And we have people that portray this life of everything's just great, everything's awesome. But then again, when anytime they're alone, it's just a miserable place to be. And it's. It's really unfortunate because I feel like we don't trust each other with our truth. And if I come to you as a friend or a brother and tell you like, hey, I'm feeling this way and you don't handle it appropriately.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Joe Smarrow]

Even if you're doing your best, right. If I come to you and say, hey, I'm struggling in my marriage, or my marriage isn't going well, I'm just having a hard time. And you're like, man, can I be honest, dude, I never liked your wife anyway. Let's just go get hammered. Shit. This weekend and, like, just forget about it. That's not great advice in that. So. But again, it's not that that friend's bad, it's just they don't know any better.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Joe Smarrow]

And I think that happens a lot to people where they're like, you know what? I just don't think I should tell anyone anything. And then there's such a stigma around therapy and treatment, and so it's like people just trying to find their own way on their own. And there's a lot of people lost, sadly. And you can just see it. You can see it just with. From school shootings to the mental health epidemic to how. How divided we are, with just, you know, people getting so drawn into the. The political climate of everything happening right now like this, this time of year, every four years is like, oh, Jesus, here we go. It's a disaster.

[Sean]

I'm sure crime's going up next couple months.

[Joe Smarrow]

Yeah, it's a problem.

[Sean]

So I personally think the suicide numbers aren't even accurate. So my grandfather and father both committed suicide, but their deaths were not reported as suicides.

[Joe Smarrow]

Interesting.

[Sean]

And you start looking into things and it seems like they're not accurate.

[Joe Smarrow]

Wow. And from a place of love, Sean, first, thank you for sharing that with me. I'm sorry that that happened. And talk about trauma, that's got to be difficult.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Joe Smarrow]

Two, just because I know you're someone that loves to learn is we no longer say committed or completed suicide. It's just die by suicide.

[Sean]

Oh, really?

[Joe Smarrow]

Yes, because people commit crimes and complete marathons. So one is negative, one is positive. And in order for us to really destigmatize suicide, we have to create neutral language. And so we're not going to celebrate it and glorify it, we're not going to punish it and shame it, but we're just going to say it is what it is. And when we can collectively get on that same page of just accepting neutrality, maybe people will be willing to come forward more. And so it's just they changed this in 2019. And so anytime I get an opportunity to share that, especially if I hear it, because we talk about it in our training, but when I hear someone say it, if I can trust that they're not going to be offended by.

[Sean]

No, thanks for sharing that. I had no idea. But that's why I'm so passionate about, you know, opening up, because I don't want that legacy to continue. And my dad had a couple other kids and, you know, they were suicidal too, so the ripple effect is huge. Yeah, it's important.

[Joe Smarrow]

It becomes a learned behavior. It really does. It's like any other behavior. If you see it or experience it, it brings it more into your awareness. And when we f, like we, we see we were. The brain is only ever going to see what it focuses on. And if I grew up knowing my dad and my granddad killed themselves and that's all I'm thinking or seeing, not, not all I'm thinking, but, but it's just always playing, it becomes far more likely that that's going to happen because it's in your awareness. And so again, kudos to you man, for the work you've done and just the growth you've had to find yourself and your truth and step into that. It's awesome.

[Sean]

No, you too, man. I really hope your message can reach the masses because it's so important. Like they need someone like you that's relatable. Like you've been through all of it, right? There's mental health coaches that haven't gone what, like what you've done.

[Joe Smarrow]

Which it's the same with a lot of therapist and psychiatrist, psychologist. And that's a lot of the issues. It's funny, I was just in and Burbank two days ago, I did a keynote at the California association of Hostage Negotiators. And I know my message, right? And people can confuse it with like, oh, this guy's just going to tell us to hug longer and hug each other. And I do. But because of my experience and credibility, it was like, I'm not sure how this is going to land with this group of people wearing cargo pants and a lot of hair gel and lokes and know, Velcro. And I was like, let's just see. The feedback was phenomenal. And even from a room full of like 450 or 500 operators in this room that do a lot of high speed work, SWAT operators, negotiators, for them to come up to me, some of them fighting tears, just saying thank you, I needed this. Wow, thank you for being here and doing this. And I was like, hey, I wasn't sure I was going to land. They're like, no, this is perfect. Like, because we're, we're going to talk about all these cases and these jumpers and these barricaded subjects and all this stuff, stuff. But we don't have nearly enough people talking about what you're talking about and we need this. And it like gave them an invitation. I spoke with a guy three hours the night after my talk who was struggling. Damn and he's a cop. And this, this guy, phenomenal story. He was a quarterback at ucla, drafted by the Raiders. Married, three kids, have, has another baby. Baby has a seizure, goes into a stroke and dies at six month old.

[Sean]

Whoa.

[Joe Smarrow]

His wife is like, I don't want to do this anymore, and divorces him. And it's been four years. But to see the pain in his eyes as he tell me the story, right? This guy doesn't know me, but he saw me tell my story, right? He saw me share my story in that, in. On that stage in the morning. And that night he felt compelled or invited to say, hey, man, I want to open up to you now. And that's where I tell people like our, Our stories are what unite us, right? If we're willing to share them from a place of truth and not like a version that feels more convenient, but. But a true place of, like, this was hard, right? And I don't know, like, I tell people still, I haven't figured it out, right? I'm way better than I used to be. But it's a journey and it's going to take me a while because I still, like, I live on the road a lot. I'm in hotels all over the place. And it does get lonely, you know, And I find myself falling back into those old thought patterns when I'm isolated for too long. And it's like, okay, you know, that's what this compass represents for me. It's just a reminder of every day what is true north for you. You've got to do your gratitude. You've got to plant yourself, ask yourself, like, where am I? Why am I here? Who contributed to me being here? So, by the way, you made my gratitude this morning, Sean, I love it, but it just, it focused me to be present in this day. Not what's tomorrow, not what's yesterday, but just what's happening now. And can I focus on that? That's where the beauty is. But I love that officer story that he shared with me because we were total strangers and became fast friends just from connecting. And it's not about trauma bonds. You know, people say that's trauma bonds. No, but it was. This guy was coming to me looking for hope, saying, hey, I'm doing things like emdr, but is that enough? No. If you're just doing one session of EMDR a month or every few months, that's not going to help you. And especially when it's been four years and you're still drastically punishing yourself, not sleeping, you tell me Your brain won't turn off that you're not sleeping at all, man. That's. That's a tough place to be. And he's within two years of retiring. And I told him, like, man, set that as your goal. Get as healthy as you can, because when you retire, it's only going to get worse. Oh, yeah, because this job is a distraction, and he knows it. And it's like, when you retire and suddenly you're like, okay, now what? It's going to get dark, man. And so I want you to work for these next two years as hard as you can on yourself to prepare yourself for that transition.

[Sean]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of retirement. Like, they teach you to retire at 65. I don't believe in that, right?

[Joe Smarrow]

100%. Yeah, 100. Even for me, Like, I have goals, but it's like, I want to work until I can't, especially if I'm passionate about what I'm doing, right? If I can just share a message or a learned experience or write a book or do a podcast or do a keynote at someone's conference and that, like, helps them. And I'm 79 years old and able bodied, beautiful, right? But this idea that I. I call it the. The American Order of operations, right? Which is go to school, get good grades, go to college, get your degree, start your career, get a spouse, get a house, have kids, pay your taxes, retire, die. There's a lot of people who do that, and they're miserable, right? And so what about if. Yeah, this isn't for me. This is why, like, entrepreneurship is such, like, a fancy thing that, like, there's a lot of people doing it. As you know, you. You've met a ton of them, but then everyone that's not in it is, like, that's them. I would never be able to do that. I just, I want to be a cog in this wheel. And it's safe and it's convenient and it's easy. But are you happy? Like, do you have real joy in your life knowing that you're just doing this thing? You're a widget in a machine that at the end of the day, maybe doesn't care about you a whole lot and you're super replaceable, which is why what I tell cops or first responders is there's only one of three things that happens in this. Like, you're going to retire, you're going to resign, or you're going to die. And the system doesn't care. The machine does not care. You will be Replaced immediately. The next 911 call will come immediately and you will be forgotten fast. And if you died, you'll get a plaque and a memorial. If you resign, no one cares. And if you retire, no one cares. Like, thanks for your service, but you're gone. Like, you're just gone. And the system doesn't care. And so, like, yeah, love your job, be proud of it, but just accept it. Cannot love you back. And I think a lot of cops especially, it's just the mindset of, like, it becomes their identity. This is who I am. It's not. It's not right. It's just a job. It's just a job. It's a means to an end. You exchange time for money. Now, you can be passionate about it, you can love it and feel like it's your calling, sure. But also understand you're exchanging time for money, and it's a job, and that's it. And if you over glorify it, I think again, it gets dangerous. Because if you're doing your job and maybe you get benched or your gun gets taken away, suddenly, now my identity is gone. And I've stood in front of retirees, whether they're living by themselves or with their mom, and they'll look at me with tears in their eyes with a peg tube, addicted to opiates or alcohol, crying, saying, joe, what the fuck happened, man? Like, I gave 35 years of my life to the city, and now look at me. All I want to do is die. And I'm like, yeah, because you thought that's who you were. And now that it's gone, who's called you? Who's checked on you? Nobody. And my second question is, what do you do for fun, man? Like, what are your hobbies? And they're like, nothing. I drink. I'm like, yeah, I bet that sucks. You thought this family you had of however many, whether it was 10 or in our case, 2,400 cops, you thought it was your family. You leave and they're like, I'm going back to work and I've already forgot about you, and you have no hobbies. That is a very, very dangerous place to be in because now your identity is being threatened. You don't know who you are because you gave it up for the job, and now you have no hobbies or nothing to look forward to. Yeah, that's going to be a really, really miserable place to be. Which is why, again, I talked to you about golf before the show. It's like, that is a huge outlet for Me, right? And I. I know when it's happening. I've got tea time scheduled. I know when I'm going to go home. I. I'm sad because I'm here in Vegas and the wind told me they're closed for maintenance. I called Shadow Creek. I even stayed at an MGM because that's the only way you can play Shadow Creek. And they're like, we're also closed for maintenance. And I'm like, dang, you guys are killing me here. Right? Because it's that important to me of I'll build in an extra day on a trip just to play golf.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Joe Smarrow]

I have to, right? It's. It's. Otherwise I'm just working and working and working and working and to what end? And I make sure that I schedule my fun. Otherwise I'm going to get lost real quick and just focus on the wrong things and it becomes too much.

[Sean]

I love that, man. Yeah. I think this is so important for people watching this to understand the perspective of police officers, because a lot of people see these viral videos and they're freaking out, but they don't ask why they're freaking out 100%.

[Joe Smarrow]

So it's easy.

[Sean]

It's like clickbait almost, right?

[Joe Smarrow]

100%. It's easy to look at something in a, you know, in a 2D screen, or just look at something, not be there, not be in the environment, not know. And I use this analogy when I. When I'm training, but I say, you know, think back to 9, 11. Plane hits the tower. The plane hits the tower in New York, and there's jet fuel all through the elevator shafts. Fire department can't go up. People can't go down. The entire floor is on fire. What do you remember seeing people doing? And everyone just says, jumping.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Joe Smarrow]

I'm like, okay, so let's play a terrible game of what if? Like, what would you do? So let's say that's happening. Plane hits the tower. We're perched up a couple hundred feet in the air. You cannot go down an elevator. Your only two options are stand in this room and burn to death or jump to your death. Which one are you choosing? And without fail, someone always says something like, jump. I'm like, well, hold on. Do you know you would do that? Absolutely. No, you don't. You have no idea, right? You have no idea what you would do until you're in that situation. And this has always been my problem. And I'm a huge fan of training. Obviously, I own a training company, but this has been my Problem with training, since the Marine Corps is like your brain knows this is a safe environment, right? I'm not going to die doing this. Even with stress inoculation, even if they make me run in okor, spray me with pepper spray, put me through a gas chamber, I can't breathe or see somewhere in my brain I know I'm safe. But you get into a real life situation, you have no idea. Now you think you're gonna resort back to your highest level of training, but again, until like Mike Tyson says, everyone has a plan. Till you get punched in the face, right? Same thing. Like you can plan all you want, but until you face that, until you do a traffic stop on the side of a highway when it's dark and have no clue what happened. But in your in service training two months ago, they showed you a video of another officer in another state walking up on a vehicle, someone rolling down the back window and just shooting and killing the cop. And you just saw that. And it's in your awareness. And you've seen videos like this hundreds of times. Because just as the public sees everything the officers do wrong, the cops are seeing everything the public does to us. And so that's the challenge perspective of we, we don't watch other videos of cops doing dumb things nearly as much as we watch the citizens of our communities ambushing us, killing us, hurting us. And so that's the thing we're always.

[Sean]

Looking out for is interesting.

[Joe Smarrow]

This is probably going to go bad. I'm always prepared for it to go poorly, so I have to be on guard, which again, we're pouring cortisol through our minds stressed out, and I'm anticipating the bad thing to happen. And so I almost will subconsciously create the bad thing at times, especially if it's not going the way I want, as fast as I want. And so now I might get amped up because I've already come in with this preconceived notion that this could likely kill me, right? They tell you in the academy what percentage of police calls have a gun involved? And we're like, 10, 17, 40. They're like, no, 100. Because you have a gun. And then they show you a video of an officer getting into a fight, the citizen taking the gun out of the officer's holster and killing him with it.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Joe Smarrow]

And they're like, so your gun is at every call and there's a chance you could get it taken from you and died and killed by it. And we're like, oh my goodness. And I tell people, you Know a lot of the training academy in the States with policing, it's like you go through your training and right before you graduate there's this like 55 gallon drum that's just this like vat of paranoia and they draw up these syringes almost like the COVID shot and just like stab you with it. Just like here you're paranoid and you're paranoid and you're paranoid and now we're just terrified. But at the same time out of their mouth they're like, now go serve and protect your community. Well, which is it? Because I'm scared of shit, but you also want me to do this perfectly well.

[Sean]

Can't do both.

[Joe Smarrow]

And this was me, you know, I was a, you know, my brand new cop first year. I was just, every call was like, okay, here we go, here we go, here we go. And I'm like, wait a minute. People are just running from us. People are just running from us. Like it's, where's the danger at? Except for like, you know, it's scary, it is. But it's like, you know, oftentimes we're bringing the fight to people, warrants, whatever it is. But yeah, it's, it's an interesting perspective shift that, you know, the citizens are focused on what we do wrong, we're focused on what they do wrong. And so that's where the, the problem in the rub is sadly is we just, we have a hard time experiencing things from other people's perspective, especially if it doesn't serve our own belief, opinion, values.

[Sean]

Yeah. Because there's people watching this that no idea there was a fear based training. And when you're living in that state of mind, you're easily controllable, too easily controlled, easily influenced.

[Joe Smarrow]

Again, look at like when I say the brain sees what it looks for. If you go in, and here's the other issue is when I'm, when I'm training cops and they'll say, no, I've had this like they have one story, right? Everyone, every cop's got their story or two or three, right. But I had this one time when, and I'm like, when was that? And they're like, it was like seven years ago. How many calls have you had since then? And before then, thousands. But we'll take one experience and say now every time this is going to happen again. And it's so hard for them to just put it like into this algorithm of just comparison of. Okay, so for me, If I had 14,000 calls in my 15 years of policing and two of them went really bad. That's pretty good odds, right? But we're, and here's the issue too is we really sensationalize the, what we call the sexy part of policing. Foot pursuits, car chases, breaching doors. That stuff happens so infrequent now. And the problem is when you train that so much in the academy and then you graduate them and they get out there and suddenly I just, I heard this this week in Burbank where one of the officers was like, I just get bored. I'm just bored. Yeah, well, what are you gonna do when you're bored? And not only when you're bored, but you're, let's say, 21, 22 years old. You don't even have a fully developed brain. Your prefrontal cortex isn't even fully developed yet. And now you have all this power and authority and you're bored. This is not a good recipe, which is why I advocate for, on a national level, I do not think you should be a cop in this country until you're 25.

[Sean]

Minimum.

[Joe Smarrow]

That should be a minimum. And if you don't have a four year degree, cause college isn't for everyone. Cool. You should have to have at least two years working in health and human services so you can learn to develop compassion for people before you're given power over them. I think if we did those couple things and then drastically raised the wages because believe it or not, like it or not, you get what you pay for. You're paying a cop $40,000 out there with perfect expectations of that of a pilot saying, hey, you can't crash. Okay, cool. Well, hey, you can't do anything wrong on these calls because you're going to get in trouble or get a lawsuit. Well, great. But you put me through an 11 week police academy. 12 week police academy. You gave me a gun. I'm 20 in Iowa, you can be 18 and an armed police officer at 18 years. Wow. I'm like, you just went to prom two weeks ago. Suddenly you're showing up to domestics, this 44 year old couple talking about marital issues. What do you know about it? Right? So there's a lot of issues that people don't realize. And again, I can empathize on the law enforcement side, just as I can empathize on the, on the citizen side. Because there should be some frustration, you know, of, of people being frustrated with policing the way it is, because, you know, it could be, and it should be done much better and different than it is.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah. I'd rather fund police Officers in these wars, man, another 8 billion. Yesterday they announced. Crazy.

[Joe Smarrow]

And for what? Where's it going? For what? How's it serving us? It's so frustrating. And imagine what that could do for our own country to keep our own towns and communities safe. And again, it's just you get what you pay for. And we have a lot of money being pushed into other things and agendas that just sadly we don't feel it in our communities. And there's a lot. Police departments are so short staffed. We work with the Federal Bureau of Prisons. We have a federal contract providing de escalation and wellness training for them. Their life expectancy in the Federal Bureau of Prisons after retirement is three years.

[Sean]

Holy crap.

[Joe Smarrow]

Three years. Because there they work two and three decades in these prisons, essentially incarcerated, you know, so much trauma, seeing horrific things, no hope. You know, it's not like there's, yeah, there's some like restoration that's happening for some people, but they don't experience it. Yeah, right. Like, okay, we did programs, awesome. They eventually get out, but they have no idea. So all they're seeing is just, I call it saturated in human suffering. And that's all they know. And then, you know, they're stressed out all the time. You've got one or two of these correctional officers standing in a general pot of 45 inmates terrified. And you do this over time, just cortisol, cortisol, cortisol. And then they retire and die. And again they're so short staffed because they're paying them, not anywhere near enough. It's hard to get people into this profession now on the policing side, on the correction side, you know, fire and ems, it might be a little bit easier because that's the sexy part of first responders is they're the heroes. And it's medicine and it's great. And they have their issues too. But you know, people don't realize the number one killer of policing in our country is not the bad guy out there. It's, it's unprocessed trauma and suicide. Suicide is the number one killer of policing. And anyone that's thinking, well, yeah, but that's because we have advanced medicine and tourniquets and all this. Yes. And the number one killer is suicide. And we had this below 100 campaign years ago, which is great. It's, let's get our Traffic fatalities below 100. Wear your vest, wear your seatbelt. A lot of cops get into pursuits, they're not wearing their seatbelts or their vest. Even wearing a vest in a Vehicle crash can save your life, but they're not wearing their vest or a seatbelt, they get ejected, they die. So they're like, hey, let's get our vehicle crashes below 100. Awesome. And we did. It was great. But why is there not a below one campaign for suicide? Why are we not having a below one campaign for like, hey, let's not die, let's not kill ourselves, right? If, if that is the number one thing, why are we not spending more emphasis on that? Why are we not training on that in the academy before or other than just like a one hour talk or on like, hey, you know, mental health is a thing, you know, just make sure you're sleeping good. And like we've got eap, so just like talk to someone if you need help. That's the extent I, I feel so equipped. Right. I think it's terrible, man. If it's not like front and center annually in front of them and not just pushing resources or pointing to a 1, 800 number, that's not it. It should be mandatory, in my opinion. People ask me the question, Joe, if you were in charge of policing in this country, what would you do? And I've talked about a couple, raise the age, raise the wage, you know, better requirements, raise the standards. But we would also have mandatory therapy. Mandatory from the chief to the sheriff, all the way down to the brand new officer in the academy, it's mandatory. You don't get a choice because we don't get a choice of the calls we're responding to. So you shouldn't get a choice on whether or not you're going to deal with the traumatic events you're dealing with either.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Joe Smarrow]

Every cop has to shoot their handgun every year? Every year for qualification. It's for proficiency and liability. So every cop. The amount of money that's spent in police agencies or city budgets for ammo is unbelievable. Cool. I think it's important. But if there's a requirement for proficiency and liability to train us in firearms every year, why is there not a requirement for proficiency and liability to train our minds to not suffer, to not turn to alcohol or pornography or the things we know that are plaguing us that we're dying by, why is there not a requirement to deal with it? I have an issue with that. And again, it's why I just, I, I really appreciate me letting you use your platform, Sean, to talk about this stuff because I'm aware of your reach and I don't know how many cops listen to you, but, you know, it's people know cops. And if, even if they're not a police officer, someone's going to share it with one of their people that is a police officer. And I think that's what's powerful is, you know, when I do my, my keynote sessions or whatever I'm doing, people always come up and say, like, man, I never thought about that. Like, that's important. That was a great reframe. Or, you know, I'm struggling, but I didn't know I could just go help myself. Yeah, I've been waiting for. And I tell them, and this isn't a slight, but it's just the truth. Your police chief, your sheriff is not coming to save you. Your city mayor or governor or state governor or senator is not coming to save you. The president is not coming to save you. You have to be selfish. We have to be selfish and say, I am the most important thing first. Because if we don't learn to love ourselves and prioritize ourselves, you're going to be a shell of the person you could be. You're not going to be the best person for your family, you're not going to be the best person for your children. You're not going to be the best person for your department. You're not going to be the best person for your community if you are not your best self. And sadly, the narrative that's been sold to us is community first. It's all about them. Right? It's almost a Christian principle of others first, others first serve, others do for others do for others. I get it. I love it. Others are important. But at what cost and to what end? And if we're not prioritizing ourself and it's, it's semantics. But for me, it is important to say before others is me. I've got to. If I don't, if I don't stay engaged in therapy, if I don't do my daily gratitude practice, if I don't do the things I know I have to do, if I don't play golf for a long period of time, I know exactly what happens. And I'm going to start to take that out of my wife. I'm going to start taking it out of my children. I'm going to start taking it out of my, my, my employees and the people that work with me and around me, our clients. It's going to seep out. And so I have to make sure I'm taking care of myself. But there's a big difference between being selfish for selfish reasons and being selfish for selfless reasons. And I think we need to be selfish for selfless reasons so that we can better serve and show up for humanity after we've learned to prioritize ourselves, figure ourselves out, discover who we are, and then we can again just be a better version of ourselves to help more people.

[Sean]

Absolutely. Joe, it's been an honor. I can't wait to see you reform this industry. I think it's important. Where can people find you? Find the book. Keep up with you.

[Joe Smarrow]

Love it, man. Books on Amazon, unarmed websites, Joe. Smarrow.com and then solutionpointplus.com is the business website. Would love to connect and engage with anyone. And again, Sean, thank you so much for your time, brother. I appreciate it, man. And everyone take care. Be well.

[Sean]

Absolutely. Check out the links below, guys. See you next time.