Is Christianity Actually A Cult?... | Vocab Malone | DSH #1996

Summary

Digital Social Hour — Episode Summary

Episode Title: Is Christianity Actually A Cult?... | Vocab Malone | DSH #1996
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Vocab Malone
Date: June 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Digital Social Hour explores the controversial question: "Is Christianity a cult?" with guest Vocab Malone, a well-known Christian apologist, street debater, and researcher of fringe religions and cults. Host Sean Kelly and Malone dig into the public perceptions and definitions of cults, debates within Christianity, the Hebrew Israelite movement, biblical textual criticism, and the enduring mysteries of religious history.

The conversation is lively, critical, and occasionally confrontational—delving into the overlap between academic rigor and online debate culture, why certain religious groups react so strongly to criticism, and how conspiracy and alternative history narratives shape popular belief.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Academic vs. Social Media Apologetics

[03:32–05:00]

• Vocab Malone discusses transitioning from purely social media content to presenting at academic conferences like the American Academy of Religion (AAR).
• Quote: "How do you bridge the gap between academia and the sort of social media street stuff? ...what's going to do well on most social media is something a little more incendiary." – Vocab Malone (04:38)

The Digital Debate World: Top Apologists & Debaters

[05:00–09:51]

• Discussion of high-profile debaters (Jay Dyer, Andrew Wilson, Wes Huff, Alex O’Connor) in the Christian and atheist spheres.
• Malone critiques debate tactics and ethical conduct in the digital apologetics arena.
• Quote: "But both of them... imitate the manosphere of the Internet more than they do Jesus Christ." – Vocab Malone on Jay Dyer & Andrew Wilson (05:14)
• Quote: (On Alex O’Connor) "He’s actually trying to learn New Testament scholarship. He’ll concede points. I find him... somewhat fair-minded and balanced in his approach." – Vocab Malone (09:14)

Focus on Hebrew Israelites

[10:24–14:52]

• Malone’s "specialty" is engaging with Hebrew Israelites, especially those with highly exclusivist and sometimes hostile views.
• Describes legal pushback: cease and desist letters and even civil injunctions for street debates.
• Quote: "If they're so epic in their Bible skills, how come one little Christian and his wife with a camera scares them...?" – Vocab Malone (11:30)

Analyzing Cults: Definitions & Characteristics

[20:50–23:59]

• Malone distinguishes academic, anti-cult, and counter-cult perspectives.
• Academic preference is to call groups "new religious movements" (NRMs) rather than "cults."
• Key indicators of a cult:
  • Authoritarian leadership
  • Thought and information control
  • Behavioral regulation
  • Emotional manipulation
• Quote: "A huge one. Information control is almost one of the, the biggest signs that you are in a cult if you are banned from reading any outside criticism." – Vocab Malone (21:59)

Are Hebrew Israelites a Cult?

[23:26–28:03]

• Malone distinguishes degrees of cultic behavior within Hebrew Israelite groups.
• Specifically targets groups like ISUPK (Israelite School of Universal Practical Knowledge) as exhibiting classic cultic traits.
• Discussion of hierarchy and claims: "second only to Christ" leadership structures.
• Quote: "Strictly speaking, theologically, they are cultic in the sense that they stray from Christian doctrine..." – Vocab Malone (23:26)

Examining Core Disagreements: Salvation & Lineage

[28:03–34:00]

• Malone critiques the Hebrew Israelite doctrine that only specific ethnic groups can be saved, relegating others (including other Black people deemed "Hamites") to eternal servitude or slavery.
• Quote: “You cannot enter to the kingdom of God strictly because of your lineage. You will only enter as a slave... it’s almost like a joke. But the sad thing is, they believe it.” – Vocab Malone (28:03, also repeated at 30:39)

Approaching Debates in Good Faith

[26:35–27:59]

• Malone details tactics used in debates by some Hebrew Israelite speakers, including manipulative preconditions and showmanship.
• He expresses his aim to genuinely understand and critique beliefs, rather than simply attack or ridicule.
• Quote: “Everything’s a tactic for these guys.” – Vocab Malone (26:59)

Textual Criticism: Bible vs. Quran

[34:36–39:58]

• Malone addresses claims of biblical corruption and comparative textual histories of Bible and Quran.
• Details the rigorous transmission and checking mechanisms of biblical texts, referencing the Dead Sea Scrolls as evidence for textual stability.
• Quote: “The Bible is shown to have some serious problems in its transmission—if the Dead Sea Scrolls had been radically different.” – Vocab Malone (41:11)

Gnostic Gospels & Pseudepigrapha

[42:05–55:08]

• Explains Gnostic writings as later, derivative forgeries relying on established New Testament timelines and settings.
• Gnostics lack references to real geography, indicating their non-historical, non-Hebraic origins.

Ancient Civilizations, Pyramids, and Alien Theories

[55:49–61:32]

• Malone refutes the need for "ancient aliens" to explain megalithic structures, arguing for lost human ingenuity and knowledge.
• Quote: "You don't get to jump to, 'aliens did it.' That's the mistake a lot of these people make. It's a logical jump that's unwarranted." – Vocab Malone (60:07)

Noah’s Ark & Flood Legends

[63:59–68:29]

• Discusses the plausibility of Noah’s Ark as described in the Bible, referencing barge designs and fossil evidence for catastrophic flooding.
• Notes the ubiquity of global flood legends across cultures.
• Quote: “There's a reason why the book's endured. There's a reason why people have given their lives to preserve it.” – Vocab Malone (66:29)

Host’s Faith Journey

[48:57–52:22]

• Sean Kelly shares his agnostic position and current project of reading the Bible and Quran to better understand ongoing religious debates.
• Malone encourages authentic engagement and self-awareness of biases.
• Quote: "So just naked, raw, explicit, honest... what's your opinion of Jesus so far from those [readings]?" – Vocab Malone (49:52)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “The Bible does regulate our speech. Ephesians 4:29. The Bible does tell us a certain conduct. We all fall short. But [some online Christian debaters] revel in pushing past Christian ethical norms with their speech on a regular basis.”
  — Vocab Malone [05:19]

• “If more atheists model[ed Alex O’Connor’s approach], I think we can actually go a lot farther than we have in some kind of mutual understanding.”
  — Vocab Malone [09:33]

• "To them, this is a... cosmic battle. And the scripture says we wrestle not against flesh and blood. So their whole rubric, I would say, is wrong because it's a very flesh and blood rubric..."
  — Vocab Malone on Hebrew Israelites’ worldview [31:41]

• “That's why they commonly say vocab and people like him are the devil that the Bible speaks of. There's a lot of images on me with horns.”
  — Vocab Malone [31:41]

• "If you can't explain a structure, you don't get to jump to aliens did it... what’s the proof that it’s an alien?"
  — Vocab Malone [60:07]

• “I would encourage people to give the Bible a second look. And the things that you laugh at, look at again and see, is there an explanation for this?”
  — Vocab Malone [66:08]

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Important Timestamps for Major Segments

• [02:25] – Episode proper begins; the "slave in heaven" doctrine of some Hebrew Israelite camps is highlighted.
• [03:32–05:00] – Transition from social media apologetics to academia.
• [10:24–14:52] – Debating Hebrew Israelites, legal intimidation tactics (cease and desist, injunctions).
• [20:50–23:59] – Defining “cults” and NRMs, discussing key cult characteristics.
• [28:03–34:00] – Detailed challenge to Israelite exclusivist theology, real-life debate anecdotes.
• [34:36–39:58] – Bible transmission, textual criticism, Dead Sea Scrolls.
• [42:05–55:08] – Gnostic gospels, fake texts, and their historical context.
• [55:49–63:59] – Ancient civilizations, megalithic structures, and myths around aliens.
• [63:59–68:29] – Noah’s Ark, evidence for a global flood.
• [48:57–52:22] – Sean’s personal journey to understand Bible as an agnostic moderator.

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Episode Tone, Language & Style

• The episode maintains a critical-yet-inviting tone, encouraging direct questioning and mutual curiosity.
• Malone balances academic rigor with accessible explanations and occasional humor.
• Host Sean is candid about his own agnosticism, making the discussion relatable for non-Christian, searching, or skeptical listeners.

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Conclusion & Where to Find Vocab Malone

• Vocab Malone’s main platform is his YouTube channel, which features debates, live Q&A ("the smoke room"), and resources on apologetics and religious studies.
• The episode closes with encouragement for authentic critical inquiry, both of sacred texts and received narratives—whether religious or conspiratorial.

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This summary covers the full arc and depth of the conversation, skipping over advertisements and non-content sections, and provides a useful guide for listeners or those seeking to grasp the crux of this Digital Social Hour episode.

Transcript

[Vocab Malone]

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[Vocab Malone]

Wayfair Every Style Every home. You, for example Sean you cannot enter to the kingdom of God strictly because of your lineage. You will only enter as a slave. It's almost like a joke. But the sad thing is, they believe it.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

That's a dark belief, because if that were true, wouldn't you just do whatever you wanted?

[Vocab Malone]

They think they're. They're righteous now by telling their people to keep the law, statues and commandments. So they think they're doing the right thing, first of all. So that's why I'm not just a debate opponent. I'm essentially a manifestation of the devil.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Okay, guys, got Vocab Malone here today. It's just a solo episode today because no one would debate this, man. I tried, guys. I tried all weekend. I was trying to line something up

[Vocab Malone]

for you, but appreciate that.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Sean, how you doing, man?

[Vocab Malone]

I'm doing great. Nice to be in Vegas, actually. My first time. Oh, really?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah. What. What do you think about it?

[Vocab Malone]

I wouldn't want to live here. I'm too Christian for this culture.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah. Sin City, they call it.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Were you walking the. The strip trying to preach?

[Vocab Malone]

I did not, but maybe one day I will.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

That'd be a pretty ball video. Yeah.

[Vocab Malone]

I'm here to do a presentation at the American Academy of Religion. That's why we ended up coming here.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Okay.

[Vocab Malone]

Aar. So I'm trying to not just do social media and Christian apologetics only, but delve a little bit into the realm on the edges of academic work.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

How did that. How did your talk go there?

[Vocab Malone]

It went great. I mean, it was interesting to be presenting to a small room, but where most people there are PhDs.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Wow.

[Vocab Malone]

Or at some kind of graduate program, and they're scholars of religion, so you can't just do Christian apologetics there.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

So like the West Huth, West Huff type of crowd.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. Yeah. But the stuff he would do, it would have be considered more objective and academic and publicly accessible information type thing. And usually your arguments are smaller arguments you make because you have to prove everything.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Interesting. That must be hard within a religious context.

[Vocab Malone]

Yes. Because you. You got to be careful. They value plurality and diversity, and so you'll be stepping a lot of toes, so. But it's interesting. Interesting place to be in. Your papers have lots of footnotes on them.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Wow. I mean, if you can get good at that format, I mean, you would destroy the normal format, I feel like. You know what I mean?

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah, yeah. It's. How do you bridge the gap between academia and the sort of social media street stuff? Because there is a gap there. Not most people don't don't excel at both. A lot of academics might be dry and boring, so it's difficult to do that. Yeah, they're not as sensationalistic. But what's going to do well on most social media is something a little more. Incendiary.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Exactly. Yeah. I, I will say I just moderated Jay Dyer. He was the most impress one of the most impressive debaters I've ever seen.

[Vocab Malone]

Jay Dyer is super intelligent. I do not co sign his behavior. He's supposed to be a Christian. I consider most of his debate behavior not very Christian. Really? Yeah. I don't know how he was here, but he was quick to insult his opponents and it's kind of a shame because he's intelligent enough, he doesn't actually need to resort to ad homs but. But he still will because he is very well learned.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I've seen him do that on debates. I will say on the one he just did here against Brian Shapiro. No, no personal attacks.

[Vocab Malone]

That's, that's good to hear.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

So maybe he's taken some notes on that.

[Vocab Malone]

I hope so. I hope so. It'd be interesting to bait him sometime. He is a formidable opponent. No, no doubt about that. Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

He, him and Andrew Wilson are the best I've personally seen. But in your opinion, who are the best you've seen? Other than you, obviously.

[Vocab Malone]

I don't think I'm the best debater. I think I'm one of the debaters in the digital media landscape. I don't think I'm the best, but I have fun doing it and I try to add unique points. Andrew is also highly intelligent, but both of them are supposed to be representing a strand of Christianity, Eastern Orthodoxy. And I would say both their behaviors imitate the manosphere of the Internet more than they do Jesus Christ. It doesn't mean we can never be aggressive. It doesn't mean we can't be confident. That's not the idea that they automatically straw man you as saying you're kind of promoting some kind of. They like to call it tone policing but I mean the Bible does regulate our speech. Ephesians 4:29. The Bible does tell us a certain conduct. We all fall short. But they kind of revel in pushing past Christian ethical norms with their speech on a regular basis. So I think it's bad. They're representatives of Eastern Orthodoxy, but I'm not Eastern Orthodox, so that's on the Eastern Orthodox, I suppose.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Got it. You would rank them like kind of

[Vocab Malone]

mid tier, upper tier intelligence rhetoric, top of the line. That's why they're popular. They're popular for a reason. They're. They're very formidable. It's a shame they have to fall back into what I consider essentially imitating worldly behavior with their speech.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Got it.

[Vocab Malone]

That's. That's my view.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Got it. So, that being said, who would you rank as someone that's got.

[Vocab Malone]

West Huff is almost untouchable, in my opinion, because he's the rare breed who is a scholar. He's. A lot of people on the Internet will say, I'm a scholar. And then they don't really have academic credentials. They read academic books sometimes. Lot of times they don't actually understand what they're reading. Wes Huff not only reads and understands, he actually does the work. When he debated Billy Carson, the fact that he pulled off fact similes of actual ancient manuscripts to call Billy Carson on the carpet for claims he was making about the Bible. Most apologists can't pull that off.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah, no, that was badass. And I'm friends with Billy Carson, but that move was, you got to give it flowers.

[Vocab Malone]

And he didn't know what Billy Carson was going to bring up. He's not just randomly flexing. That's literally his life's work. So now look, no one is perfect. So anyone can sort of have bad debates or discussions. And West Huff's not even really a debater. He's more of a.

[Commercial Announcer]

He want.

[Vocab Malone]

He does public academic work. Right. And he wants to have discussions and dialogue. But if you try to debate him, he's going to do very well because

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

he debates from logic. Right. So it's hard to beat.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. And he has a. He has a strong grasp on the historical reality. So all the Internet hoaxes that people pull out, did you know you've been lied to? He can shut all those down because he has the information. Right. And most of those, Council of Nicaea, Ethiopian Bible are fraudulent.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah, that does give him an edge because he's read all the ancient texts, too. Sometimes with Christians, they've only read the Bible. Right. Or the Quran and the major texts.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. Billy Carson brought up Epic of Gilgamesh stuff, and he said, well, hold on, let's stop. Let's compare Genesis and Epic of Gilgamesh. And Billy Carson had. He was saying they were essentially imitating one, and the parallels were very tenuous, to say the least. You know, and so Billy Carson, I mean, that's why he fell on his face. That's why I tried to shut the debate down. And that would happen to a lot of these guys who are Very popular, very, very kind of charismatic. But at the end of the day, if they're able to be questioned, they do not have the goods.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah. What about Alex OConnor?

[Vocab Malone]

He. I like Alex O'. Connor. Alex Connor is very interesting. So as a Christian apologist who's been watching the debate scene, especially with the rise of the new atheist going back to 2006 era when it was the Four Horsemen, so called Dawkins and Harris, Hitchens and Dennett. Before that time it was, it was more scattered. They really brought a public spectacle to Christian atheist dialogue. Right. But they were very anti Christian in so many ways. Alex o' Connor is interesting in that he's not just making random accusations, he's actually studying the text. He's actually trying to learn New Testament scholarship. He'll concede points. I find him, from what I've seen to be somewhat fair minded and balance in his approach. And if more atheists model that, I think we can actually go a lot farther than we have in some kind of mutual understanding. So I feel like Alex has went on a journey that is plausible, commendable.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah, I agree. I think he's one of the, he's probably the best. Is he atheist or agnostic?

[Vocab Malone]

Last I knew, he's an atheist. I mean his original thing was cosmic skeptic and skeptics are technically somewhat different than atheists. So I don't know where he's at now, but last I knew, atheist. But all the Christians I know who like him also say good things about

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

him because he's very respectful.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. And, and I get sometimes it's going to get rough. I get it. Okay. You know, there's a little bit of showmanship on the Internet, I get that too. But I think Alex has really come a long way and modeling a much better way to approach these things. So I like seeing that we don't have to always, we don't have to hate each other.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah, facts. Now let's get back to you. You, you debate a lot of Hebrew Israelites.

[Vocab Malone]

All right, that's my specialty, I guess you would say.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Right. So what started that? I guess. And what got you down that road?

[Vocab Malone]

A friend called me up, said vocab, these people are coming into our churches, interrupting our. Looked it up, looked for resources. There were no resources. So I decided to create resources. And then I said, oh, they're challenging people on the street. They're saying no one can challenge them. I'm not really knocking on the door on the street, but the idea is knocking at their door. Metaphorically saying, okay, let's debate on the street what happened. As a result of me challenging Hebrews lights on the street, I got civil injunctions against me by IUIC saying I can't harass them in their workplace. I literally got served on the street. Yeah. Because they're saying whenever the employees of IUIC are doing their. Their duty, you can't disrupt it. Now I can go to court and get it quash relatively easy. But a judge literally signed off of it. That's what it says. Wow. So if they're so epic in their Bible skills, how come one little Christian and his wife with a camera scares them to send a civil injunction against workplace harassment to me? Why? And that's not the first type of thing I've got like that. I've got a cease and dis from gocc. Gathering of Christ Church sent me a cease and desist. Kelly Richardson and his. His guy, William Brown, they sent me a cease and desist from their lawyers. Lawyers down there in Virginia or Georgia, wherever. This is a common thing. They'll say one thing and then if you approach them now it's harassment. Now you're violating their rights. We just want to have a conversation.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I'm not a fan of season desist. Whenever I get one, I don't. I throw it out.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I didn't sign for the autumn one. Like, if you want to sue me over a video, go ahead.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah, it's.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

A lot of people use it as a scare talk.

[Vocab Malone]

It's a saber rattling.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah. Like 99 of them. They don't actually want to take you to court. They just want to scare you. Take a video down or whatever.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah, it's saber rattling. But the IUIC one, they're the biggest Hebrews like camp in America. And in fact, they moved to Vegas like seven years ago or so. The news covered them. It was one of the funniest news reports ever because the lady's like, well, I interviewed them, but they say I'm going into slavery. It was a local Las Vegas News, IUIC's local chapter there. But they sent me the cease. Not. I'm sorry, not cease and desist. A civil injunction.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Interesting.

[Vocab Malone]

For workpl. Harassment.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I haven't seen them out here. I wonder where they're.

[Vocab Malone]

Oh, they're out here.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

They're out here? Yeah.

[Vocab Malone]

IUIC Las Vegas is out here every Saturday.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Really? Where did they go, the Strip?

[Vocab Malone]

No, there's some different corners, but I don't have them all mapped out. But I've done A couple screenshots to be able to see where they're.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

They're out.

[Vocab Malone]

IUIC is out every Saturday.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Did you run into them this trip?

[Vocab Malone]

No, I haven't got that. I haven't got that civil injunction quashed yet.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Oh, so that's a nationwide thing. That's not a state thing.

[Vocab Malone]

I haven't tested it yet. I haven't tested it.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Wow. I can't believe they could get a federal.

[Vocab Malone]

Well, it says whenever their employees are discharging their duties. So that includes street.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I think it's ridiculous because the street is public.

[Vocab Malone]

Yes.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

So I can't believe that covers that.

[Vocab Malone]

I can't believe the judge signed it. Well, that.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I don't believe in the law system. I mean. You don't believe in the law system.

[Vocab Malone]

Are you a sovereign citizen?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

No, I'm not. But in terms of like a judge signing off on that, that's not too far fetched to me.

[Vocab Malone]

Oh, oh, right, right, right. Yes.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Because I think they could easily influence a judge on a. I don't know if it's a federal level or a

[Vocab Malone]

local level, but it's a Phoenix thing, so I bet I could pre. I just haven't done it lately. I'll get back out to him. It only lasts for a year anyway.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah, no, I'm not a sovereign citizen. I've had a few of them on the show. Very interesting people.

[Vocab Malone]

I'd like to talk to them.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Dude. Apparently, like when they get pulled over, like they're. They have some sort of line of script that gets them out of almost everything.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. And they put stuff up on the window.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah. I don't know if I believe it, but some guy said he got out of like 50 different tickets.

[Vocab Malone]

It's possible though, because a lot of cops don't want to deal with them.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

True.

[Vocab Malone]

Every sovereign citizen case that I've ever been aware of because I've looked a little bit into this. They've. They all fail unless the judge just doesn't want to deal with it and throws it out. So sometimes they sort of wear down the justice system, but sometimes they end up in shootouts with cops.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Jeez.

[Vocab Malone]

There's multiple cases of this, especially in involving not only but a cult that I study called the Moors. MO Heard of them? I think R S? Yeah. They consider themselves.

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[Vocab Malone]

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[Vocab Malone]

Citizens of Morocco was so the Moorish science temple has a heavy influence within the sovereign citizen movement. They do things like move into houses when people go out.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Oh, that's squatting. Yeah.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. But they're heavy on that because they have this, these weird rules. They think there's a case in Maryland where they took over a gun range. You know, you can look this up like group takes over a gun range in Maryland and you'll find it's the Moors who did this. You know, a couple shootouts with cops. They're not all like that. Okay, they're not all like that. But a heavy dose of them are the Official organization kind of denies the sovereign citizen stuff. But a lot of the members are. You recognize them when they wear the fez caps. That's kind of a common thing as a fez cap.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

So they live in America, but they don't pay taxes. They don't abide by the laws.

[Vocab Malone]

They. They will say the laws aren't relevant to them. So like, if you pull them over, they'll say that you. You don't have a right to stop me while I'm in my vehicle. They have all these strings.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I wish.

[Vocab Malone]

It's. It's essentially an unproven legal theory that is done by non professionals that always fails, but sometimes wears down law enforcement where they're like, okay, well just let's be done with it. But sometimes it doesn't end that way. You get a stubborn cop and a stubborn sovereign citizen. It won't end well.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Geez. Yeah. The risk to reward doesn't seem there for that sor lifestyle.

[Vocab Malone]

There's a lot of videos, a lot of unfortunate videos. We can watch these things. And even the court cases, they do really weird things. Like they'll say, is the state of Wisconsin here?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

How.

[Vocab Malone]

How is this. How is this versus the state of Wisconsin? Where are they?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

They're not words.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. And they'll say. They'll say a defendant and they'll say, who's defendant? I am. Man. They have all these strange responses to common legal rhetoric.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Wow. Was that one of the weirdest cults you've studied?

[Vocab Malone]

No.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Nians, Nawabians.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

N, A

[Vocab Malone]

W, I think U, A, B, I, A, N, S. But they've changed their name several times. So the easiest way to find them, Sean, is Dr. Malachi Z. York.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

And I looked this dude up when you brought his name up earlier. He's 80 years old, right? Yes, he's old.

[Vocab Malone]

He's in prison for over 100 counts of child molestation charges.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

What?

[Vocab Malone]

The most amount, apparently, in American history. He dabbled on Hebrew Israelism for a while, dabbled earlier in Islam for a while. In the Bushwick area of Brooklyn, New York. They had their own store called All Eyes on Egypt, spelled with out the I without the y and with an I. And eventually they built their own little city in rural Georgia that has pyramids. And they turned it into a nightclub. Just all kinds of wild stuff. And the cops came in. When I say the cops, I'm talking about federal agents. You know, I'm using cops. It was in conjunction with local law enforcement, but. And they found all kinds of weird things. And enough people would come out and testified against him. And he's there. They consider it a travesty of justice. So I met some of them in London, one shot. And they're like. I said, well, how do you know this in? It was a Bible question. Unless you know Hebrew. I don't. There's a London accent, but our master teacher does. Where's your master teacher? He's currently incarcerated. Like a lot of great leaders be locked away. So then I found out who the. The leader was. Malachi Z. York.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Oh, so he was kind of anonym anonymous.

[Vocab Malone]

No, no, no, I. He's not anonymous. He's sort of infamous. It's just I was. Didn't understand the people in London I was speaking to were connected to Malachi Z York. But I should have known by what they were wearing and stuff. They're essentially kind of cometic spiritualists these days. And they blend some elements of Native American spiritualism in there too. And sometimes even they dress like cowboys sometimes. If you just look up the pictures, you'll see some really wild stuff.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Interesting.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. He claims to be some kind of alien avatar. Wow. So he didn't actually commit the crimes.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

That's an interesting cult. It'll probably be a Netflix documentary on that one.

[Vocab Malone]

There are multiple, you know, the true crime, I came out of a cult type things. He's like, in their. Their cult's like in four or five of those already. They're not properly understood as Hebrew Israelites, but they still exist. They still have a shop in London, for example. And they go by different names, though.

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They.

[Vocab Malone]

They now they go by, what is it, Woobat or Subat or something. They've kind of gotten away from the Duabian title, I think, because of the notoriety attached to it.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I don't blame them. Now, a lot of cult gets thrown around pretty easily. Now a lot of people say certain religions are cults. What's your take on that?

[Vocab Malone]

Cult doesn't speak to the truth claims of any given belief system. It's just labeling it a certain way. Early Christians could be properly categorized as a cult, historically speaking, strictly from a sociological perspective. A small sect with unorthodox beliefs, if you went that way. The academic state of affairs is to not use the word cult, Sean, because they view it as a value judgment. So they prefer this new term called NRMs. New religious movements. So cultic in the academic literature is kind of like. Well, let's just say they're NRMs. Even like hail bop comment folks are. That's an NRM. We don't want to call it a cult. There is the, also the anti cult movement which says no, this is called we should, we should deal with it. Then there's the Christian apologist who do the countercult movement. So there's different groups that deal with them. So it's kind of like saying something is a cult might be just a way to scare people. But at the end of the day, most researchers in these fields agree there are characteristics that make something more like a cult and less like a cult.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Got it.

[Vocab Malone]

Now people who aren't careful, like atheists, some incendiary atheists. Oh, Christianity. All religions are cults. You know, kind of like that kind of thing. Yeah, but there's more technical terms. So charismatic, over controlling, authoritarian leader or leadership structure. Control of behavior, down to very minute elements of behavior. Control of information you're allowed to receive. That's a huge one. Information control is almost one of the, the biggest signs that you are in a cult if you are banned from reading any outside criticism. Thought control. So you speak a certain way. To doubt a lot of times is punishable. It often ends up in some kind of communal living situation with high control over everyone there. And it almost always devolves into something weird regarding sex, often inviting, involving minors. So these are the most extreme cults in our midst. But you could just define a cult as something with aberrant beliefs. But that seems just maybe just to call it unorthodox or hetero.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah, that's more subjective at that point.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

You know what I mean? I liked your first definition better. Yeah. How you limit the control of information,

[Vocab Malone]

that's a huge element. There's a researcher, Steve, Steve is his first name. And he does something called the bite model. Behavior control, information control, thought control, emotion control. And does a good job explaining this. He himself was in the Moonies, the Unification Church. So he himself was in a cult for quite a while.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Got it. Yeah. I know with the, the Hebrew Israelites, you consider that a cult. Right.

[Vocab Malone]

So strictly speaking, theologically, they are cultic in the sense that they stray from Christian doctrine, historically speaking. But within the large scope of Hebrew Islam, some groups don't look very cultic. They don't have these high control elements. Lots of Hebrews like groups do look more cultic. Specifically the isupk, which is the group that captains the zariac that he had on your show. His group is clearly cultic.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Does he run that group?

[Vocab Malone]

No, he's under the commanding general Johanna.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Oh, I've heard of him. He's been to the studio on Jake Shield show.

[Vocab Malone]

Oh, really?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah. General Johanna. So I did not know he ran.

[Vocab Malone]

Ok, yeah, he's second only to Christ.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Wow. So he's. He's considered a disciple.

[Vocab Malone]

Well, no prophet, but whoever's in charge of Israel is second only to Christ because Christ is not on earth. Who's in charge of Israel in 2026? It's the commanding General Johanna. And so he's second only to Christ under that rubric.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Wow. Yeah, that is very.

[Vocab Malone]

That's Tazariak's guy one time I said, yeah, your commander, General Johanna. He said. He corrected me. He said it's the commanding General Johanna. Wow.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Okay.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

And how many members? Or is this out public in Thoth?

[Vocab Malone]

It is not public info. The best estimates run maybe 3,000, maybe 5,000, but they're very prominent because they're on street corners all across America.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

So they're growing.

[Vocab Malone]

They're.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

They're pretty new too, right?

[Vocab Malone]

Well, the group that they popped out of started in 1969, but the current version of the ISUPK, which stands for the Israelite School of Universal Practical Knowledge, the current version started around 2003, 2005, something like that. Okay, so it's relatively new. And Tazariak came In, I don't know, 15 years ago or something like that when he was watching some videos and he's become essentially the digital face of Hebrew Israelism. Yeah, but yet he didn't show up to debate me.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah, but you have debated in the past, right?

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah, we debated the virgin birth of Christ and we've had some discussions about gentile salvation.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

And what was the feedback who. Who came out on top from the comments?

[Vocab Malone]

The virgin birth discussion was a slaughter, I would say not because I was rude or mean or angry because to Zariak makes claims about what's happening in the New Testament text, but doesn't know anything about the underlying Greek and ignores the plain meaning. For example, we'll say they didn't come together or Joseph knew Mary not until their marriage or some phrase like that. And he'll say, well that means they had sex before they were married. Or it'll say something like the angel says you will conceive of the Holy Spirit. And they say, well, Joseph is actually the father. So they deny the virgin birth. Birth of. Of Jesus. That you don't have to. I understand a non Christian may not believe it, but if you believe the New Testament, it's clearly taught in Matthew and in Luke and implicit in other places. They strictly deny it because of the tradition of their religion. So that one was people kind of knew what happened there, especially during the cross examination. I'd encourage people to watch that. The first debate he did better on, mainly because I was sort of naive about Hebrew Israelite debate tactics. So I consider myself to be debating a person of good faith. And I. That mistake I shouldn't have made because I come to realize a lot of times you're not debating a person of good faith.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

What was the tactic?

[Vocab Malone]

Forced, forced apologies before you start the debate? Acting as if this was before you start. Yeah, yeah. Precondition. Once you're alive now, precondition gets thrown on the table if you want to continue. Wow. And looking back, I. I wouldn't have done that. But at the time I said, okay, that's good, we'll get the ball rolling. It'll be. But it was just a tactic. It's just a way to put you under immediately.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Interesting.

[Vocab Malone]

Everything's a tactic for these guys. That's.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

That's interesting you say that because when he deb show he came off strong at first. Yeah, really strong.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

And that sort of mellowed out near the end.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. And that can happen. You know, these guys are people at the end of the day, like Tak is a person commanding. Ginohana is. They're real life people. And by saying that, they have these titles, they wear shades inside like I am. They have the leather and the straps, you know, but at the end of the day, they're people who were born and they're going to die. And so I. I'll be aggressive in how I speak about these things, but I do care about the underlying person's soul at the end of the day. And I don't always know what it takes up takes to wake a person out of deception, but I'm willing to try different things within parameters. And so I. I do hope the best. But I also believe in calling out bad behavior. And so there's bad behavior, you know, that. That you see a lot of times with. It's just a level of dishonesty, you know. But I do credit to Zariak that he's willing to go to most places and debate most people, but not me.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah, he has debated a fair share of people or so.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah, I said he's become the face.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah. What's your biggest disagreement with the Hebrew Israelites?

[Vocab Malone]

The nature of God and the nature of salvation itself. And so they would say, you, for example, Sean, you cannot enter to the kingdom of God strictly because of your lineage. So your lineage precludes you from entering the kingdom of God in a way that is rewards based. Meaning you would receive good things you will only enter as a slave.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Wow.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah, that's extreme. So let's say that you're say you've

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[Vocab Malone]

let's just say that you have a father that is a Chinese father. They would consider you a Moabite. And a Moabite according to their reckoning, is someone who is doomed for Eternal slavery, regardless of what they do or don't do in their life or their relationship to Jesus Christ.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Right.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. Actually, if you watch some debates with interviews with Tzariok, when he's on with Tommy G, there's a part where he has a whip and he says how he's going to be using this on people, and they literally go out into the street in New York and practice cracking the whip. Whip.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

What?

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah, it's almost like a joke. But the sad thing is they believe it.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

That's a dark belief. Because if that's. If that were true, wouldn't you just do whatever you wanted? You know what I mean? If there's no consequence.

[Vocab Malone]

They think they. They're righteous now by telling their people to keep the law. Statues of commandments. So they think they're doing the right thing, first of all. And so they think that people like me are standing in the way because we're scared of our impending judgment. It. So that's why I'm not just a debate opponent. I'm essentially a manifestation of the devil to stop them. What, they think.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

That's wild.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah, that's. That's why they commonly say vocab and people like him are the devil that the Bible speaks of. It's a common refrain. There's a lot of images on me with horns. Yeah. And so they believe that. So to them, this is a. It's a cosmic battle. And the scripture says we wrestle not against flesh and blood. So their whole rubric, I would say, is wrong because it's a very flesh and blood rubric that they have and how they view these things. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. But that's what they think. And so they're not debating someone who's. Who's worthy or equal or has an honest disagreement. This. This is like a demonic. A demonic person in front of you. And so that's the way they view these things. So they're. They're doing what they should. And they think in the kingdom they'll be righteous. So everyone's going to like their rules, what they think. And he once told me, vocab, you're going to get my coffee. You know why? Because you're going to want to live. That's what he. This is. This is a quote, by the way.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Wow.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. And then he had another quote. He says, I'm glad Africans and white people will be in the kingdom. You want to know why vocab? Because I'm not picking my own grapes.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Damn.

[Vocab Malone]

Now, you may say Africans Isupk. Not all Hebrew Israelites. I'm specifically speaking about Tazariak's group. They think Africans are Gentile Hamites, which means they are non Israelites because they view Israelites as. As Semitic, which they themselves would count themselves as. So Africans who are Hamitic gentiles will be in slavery. So they literally have a religion that teaches in heaven. They will own black slaves.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

But he's black though.

[Vocab Malone]

But he's not an African. Under his reckoning, he's an Israelite. They're not the same thing. Right.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

That's confusing.

[Vocab Malone]

You got to follow their logic. They left Jerusalem or in African places were taken out of there because they were sold by Gentile Hamites who may have had some similar outward features but were not of the same people. That's why they got sold.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Got it.

[Vocab Malone]

Because it's not their brother selling them, it's other nations selling Israelites. You see what I'm saying? And now here they are fulfilling prophecy, specifically Deuteronomy 28 they think. And now their job is to wake their people up in accordance with the prophecy in Ezekiel. So. So notice I don't just say these people are dumb, that I try to actually understand what they believe and then go after what they believe. Like it's. This is not a gamer. Ish. Or, or just like a insult.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

You attack it from scripture point of view.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. And we'll do, we'll do lots of logic and we'll do some. We'll do history as well. But to me, if you say your foundation's Bible, I'm a guy who's been to seminary. I study theology. Let's go Bible then.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah. Have you read all the major ancient texts or.

[Vocab Malone]

Oh well, when you get into Eastern religions, that's where that gets outside of my wheelhouse. When you get into Vedas and, and Taoist scriptures, I'm not going to act. I have, I have some basic working knowledge there. But when you talk about the Quran, y. There's a. There's some knowledge I have not compared to a lot of my buddies. Obviously when we talk about the Bible or the Apocrypha or a lot of the Gnostic scriptures. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

What's your biggest issue with the Quran?

[Vocab Malone]

Biggest issue with the Quran is it claims that it is a continuation of the Bible of the Holy Scriptures. There's multiple places that say this S 1094 is one. But yet then it directly contradicts what is in the scripture. Now the real explanation, it seems to me without, without question is Muhammad himself was ignorant of what was in the Christian scriptures. He himself said he was a litter prophet. He had a nickname that was known as the ear. It's clear he picked up stuff as a merchant trader. It ends up being in the Quran, which he wasn't even even alive when it was compiled. A lot of people don't understand. There was no Quran in Muhammad's day. It was after he died. His followers collected different things together. It's in the hadith, These are in their sources. They collected rocks and leaves and things like this. Put the Quran together supposedly from what he said and you look at it and it clearly contradicts scripture. I'll give you one. It says that Jesus is not to be worshiped, that Jesus can cease to exist with essentially just a command of Allah's voice, that if you worship Jesus as God, you're committing a sin called shirk, which is the greatest of all sins. Well, all these things are taught in the New Testament and denied. So what does the Muslim dawah dawa mean? Someone who invites someone to Islam. What do they do? They have to say, well, the Bible's been corrupted.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Right.

[Vocab Malone]

Where's the charge of the Bible being corrupted? In the Quran itself. It is not there. They try to look for it, but it's essentially a later development in Islamic polemics to say that the Bible has been corrupted. Why? Because it was like, oh, this actually does not agree. So my biggest issue is you co op something to say you're the continuation of it. Deny the essence of it, including the crucible, crucifixion of Jesus Christ, which means you deny the resurrection, the cardinal doctrine of Christian faith, and yet say you're a continuation of it. Wow. So you're using its clout, its gravitas and then tossing it aside. Yeah, to me that's cheap. That's a counterfeit.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I feel that when you hear people say the Bible's been altered or corrupted, whatever you want to word it with, like Billy Carson says, it's been reworded. What do you say to that?

[Vocab Malone]

If I'm having a technical conversation, Sean, with someone who understands textual criticism, we can actually talk about variations in manuscripts. So there's a technical sense of which. If you have 6,000 manuscripts across this earth in Greek, which we do, some are fragments, they're not all complete. So 6000mss as it's abbreviated in literature, does not mean complete every time. But there are complete ones as well, or nearly complete. You can go to the library in London and see Sinaticus for Example or in Vaticanus there in Rome. Yeah. There are differences between manuscripts because every handwritten document that has ever existed in human history, when there's more than one copy, there are differences between the copies. That's undeniable. That's by the. That's true for the Quran as well. That that's just the nature of, of humans facility. The question is how careful are they. But generally speaking, when people make that claim, they're not making a textual criticism claim because that's a known thing about variation in all ancient documents from Homer to Plato to Aristotle because they're handwritten God. And the more copies you have, the more variations you have. But the more copies you have, the better you can check.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Right.

[Vocab Malone]

So that's the advantage the Bible has over the next greatest competitor, which is Homer's world work. There's many more than the scripture than there are. Homer. Homer comes in second place for how many copies of ancient documents. The Quran is actually not an ancient document. A lot of people don't understand that. It's in the Middle ages, in the 600s is when it came about. And our earliest copies are not from the 600s. That is in the middle Ages. The Quran is not an ancient document.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Wow.

[Vocab Malone]

The old and New Testaments of the Bible are classified under proper histor historiography as ancient documents. But going back to that, they usually mean the Bible's wholesale being corrupted with large swaths of, of important vital information change or swapped out.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Right.

[Vocab Malone]

That's a lie that can be demonstrated. We could talk about that and have that discussion.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I've heard people that are atheists say that.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. And, but someone like. I don't know what Alex says, but I bet Alex would have a much more nuanced perspective because I think from what I can tell he's looked at it enough to know it's, it's, it's not, not, it's not quite like that. Now that doesn't mean there's no difficulties in, in understanding why this is this way versus that way. For example, the per adultery, the longer ending of Mark 16, things like that. Especially when you get into the Old Testament because it's so much older. Yeah, but that's where the beauty of the Dead Sea Scrolls comes in. It was a massive check on what we currently had. And the beauty is that it, it basically helped check out everything properly. If the Dead Sea Scrolls were radically different than the Hebrew scrolls that we had at the time, that would have been a huge deal and you would have always heard about it. But there Was a lot of. Now it's not true. It's virtually or it's not true. They're 100 identical because it's still textual criticism with changes in copyist errors. But they match up. Especially the great Isaiah scroll. It's like, oh, we're really reading Isaiah because look, this is a thousand years older than what we had and it essentially reads the same. This is a huge deal. These Hebrew scribes were extremely careful. That's why they were in Qumran where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found. They separated themselves from the religious structure in Jerusalem just to practice their religion. They were serious. They're not going to be toying around with their own scriptures. This is their lifeblood. This is a very serious thing. This isn't like books now. It's like, I'll just take it. This is a big deal. And so to change it is a big deal. It kind of shows you don't really believe in its veracity. Otherwise why would you toy around with it? Right.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Do those scrolls predate the Bible? Those rolls you just mentioned, the Dead Sea Scrolls, they've written before the Bible.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. Well, no, they're copies of the Bible.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Oh, they're copies.

[Vocab Malone]

So the way it works is we had something called the Masoretic text, Maso, sometimes just pronounced Maseritz. My pronunciation is not that great by the way, so I might do that a few times.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

It's all good.

[Vocab Malone]

Our Hebrew scribal class, professional copyists, they had produced good scrolls that we had, but they got us into the Middle Ages because what they would do is they would, would get rid of or not use old ones when they produced a new one. That's how. By the way, confident they were that the new ones were accurate. By the way. This was their job though. But it put us into a newer bracket, you know, nine hundreds, a thousand. That's our oldest copies of the Hebrew Bible until the 1940s with the dead Sea Scrolls.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Got it.

[Vocab Malone]

Then we have scrolls from the time of Jesus and even slightly before.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Wow.

[Vocab Malone]

Of. Of the same Old Testament. Almost all books are present, I think, except for Esther and, and now we can compare what we have over here with almost a thousand year gap sometimes to say this is the test. If these over here are radically different than this, the Bible is shown to have some serious problems in its transmission.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Right.

[Vocab Malone]

That's a technical term there. But if they are matching on most major points, which they do because it gets super technical, we're talking about minor letter changes. When you talk about things and people say, oh, There's a change. We're talking about letter because of. You hear it wrong. Something like that. Common, common copious errors. You hear it wrong when it's being read out and you're copying in something called a scriptorum, where you have people copying by. Anyways, so the matches are significant. That's why there's been. You can't really make conspiracies about the Dead Sea Scrolls because they're. They're essentially what we already had. Yeah, that's interesting. Massive check that no one knew was going to happen. Found by an accident. Sheep herder go her. Throws a rock into a cave. Here's a crack. Realizes that wasn't a. That wasn't a normal empty cave sound. Found out he cracked some pottery. That pottery has the oldest biblical scrolls. No man in there. Yeah, that's.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

This guy must have sold it for a lot of money.

[Vocab Malone]

It's a whole tale of intrigue, as these things often are. Even with fake copies of the Bible, like what are called Pseudepigrapha, like the Gospel of Judas. That is a whole crazy tale and how it came to be and everything. And that's not even actually part of the, the, the scripture proper. It's a gnostic document. Wow.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

So people have faked the.

[Vocab Malone]

Well, faked in the sense that they said it was written by Judas, but when it came about, Judas was already dead. So it's considered what's called pseudepigraphal, which means false writing. But it was. So it's like, oh, Judas wrote this. We better check it out. Judas was dead when it came around, but it was still.

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[Vocab Malone]

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[Vocab Malone]

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[Vocab Malone]

Valuable because the only known complete, somewhat complete copy of Judas that we had. So it was still a big deal to try to get it and sometimes crazy things happen to this like with Vaticanus. I'm sorry Sinaiticus, Codex Sinaiticus. When Count Tischendorf went to the mountain where they were at, the monks were using it to warm the fire. What they were, they didn't understand that what it was, was so it wasn't on purpose. They just, they would, it was a common thing to take older copies of books to use as to for your firing. So he had to like smuggle it out.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

So there's missing pages of that.

[Vocab Malone]

There are misses it's mainly in the, towards the back in the front is my understanding. But the Sinaiticus is still a complete Bible. But when you say Bible you're talking, you're talking, you know essentially 66 books by modern English division. And so that's a lot there. So oftentimes the front and the backs of these larger codices are sometimes missing as was the case there. But yeah they had. We would have a little more sinatic were not for the monks at Mount Sinai using it for firewood basically.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Monks.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. They didn't know, they didn't know Count Tishador if he knew.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

You ever debate a monk?

[Vocab Malone]

No. That's an interesting question. I, I think they Kind of stay in their cloisters is the problem.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

That'd be a fun one. There's a couple that go on pods. I've seen some bald Asian dudes or whatever also.

[Vocab Malone]

Okay, so not. I was thinking, like within the Roman Catholic tradition you're talking.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Oh, yeah. There's different types, I guess.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Eastern.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Eastern. Well, Jay Shetty's apparently a monk too.

[Vocab Malone]

Really?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

You know that guy?

[Vocab Malone]

No, the only monks I know are. Hey, hey, where the monkeys. No, no, I. I'd like to debate among that. Be a fun one or just talk to them. I don't get a debate every what's what. I don't know what monks do 20,

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

26, just meditate all day. And I know who my retention.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah, yeah. I know who my favorite monk is, though, of all time.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Who is it?

[Vocab Malone]

Martin Luther.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Martin Luther King.

[Vocab Malone]

Martin Luther, the one who Martin Luther King Jr. Was named after.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Oh, really?

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I don't know the history at all.

[Vocab Malone]

One Martin Luther is. You've probably seen this where there's a picture of a man and he's.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Oh, yeah.

[Vocab Malone]

Male on the 95. Yeah. And he was a Catholic monk who started to read the Bible in the languages because he was being taught something other than Latin. He was learning the Greek and Hebrew and realized this ain't what they was teaching in the Roman Catholic Church. So started the Protestant Reformation. He was a faithful Roman Catholic monk, just wanted to reform the Church. That's why it's called the Reformation. But it ended up being a schism because the Pope said, I'm not going to reform. In fact, death sentence on you. So Pope Leo X was ripping peasants off because he wanted to build

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

the

[Vocab Malone]

paintings and the basilica and all that stuff in Rome. He wanted to have that. So he was charging the common people money for indulgences, which means get your loved ones out of purgatory, which is almost like hell, but not hell, and so you can pay to get them out. Earlier, Luther said, this is an abhorrent practice, not in Scripture. So a big problem he had was with indulgences. And the Catholic Church has not done enough Reformation to reform itself, to fix itself. So the Protestants had to break away. That's Martin Luther. So he's really an ex monk. Martin Luther King was named after him because originally Martin Luther King Jr's name was Michael, really. And then Michael, his father, senior, learned about Luther, changed their name because he wanted his son to be a reformer.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Interesting. Yeah, they're dropping some MLK files this year, I believe. Yeah. It's not looking good from what I've seen so far though.

[Vocab Malone]

I don't, I don't know what to make of it. I don't, I don't like tearing down heroes. I'm not, I'm not an. I'm not a royal iconoclast. Best. Yeah, well, I'm.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

History class portrays them as heroes, so we have a bias, I think. You know, I don't know.

[Vocab Malone]

Sometimes I think it's good to have a bias for people to people who did good things.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

He did do a lot. I think his is good outweighed the bad. The weird orgies or whatever they're saying.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah, I'm. I, I almost want to like ignore it.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

He was too good.

[Vocab Malone]

It's. It's hard. It's hard, man, because you. The scripture says that we are all sinners. Romans 3 is a great place. It just talks about.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

No doubt. Talks about.

[Vocab Malone]

Well, if you believe in the concept of sin, you do in terms of

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

it being like a. A bad thing.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Oh, well, I'm. I'm reading the Bible right now, so I'm exploring myself, but I'm currently agnostic.

[Vocab Malone]

That's fascinating. Why. Why do you feel led to read the Bible?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Well, well, now that I'm moderating debates, I feel like it's my duty to at least have a basic understanding of the Bible.

[Vocab Malone]

Wow.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

So I'm going to read that and then the Quran next.

[Vocab Malone]

What have you found so far?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I'm very early. I tried doing the old testame first. It was too boring for me. Fell asleep just being honest. But now I'm on the new one. Matthew. Men like chapter 10.

[Vocab Malone]

Okay, so you made it past the genealogies.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah. Is that the Old Testament?

[Vocab Malone]

No, no. Matthew starts with genealogy. So kudos to you. You made it past those.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Right.

[Vocab Malone]

A lot of people get stuck even there.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Really?

[Vocab Malone]

Genealogies. I mean, people. Yeah.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Now there's a lot of names. It was a little confusing. Yeah.

[Vocab Malone]

If you read in the kjv it says so and so begat so and so. You get so. So now they are important because those people are people from the Old Testament. But if you're just reading it beginning, it's kind of like get to the good.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah. I'm doing an. An audio version on Bible is. Has some background music.

[Vocab Malone]

So just naked, raw, explicit, honest. Like just. No. What's your opinion of Jesus? So far from those.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Sounds like he's performing miracles. So far from the stories I've seen. So I'm. I'm intrigued.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. By his abilities, do you find that the author of the narrative, does he. Does he feel it to you like he's embellishing or making things up or does it feel more grounded?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Oh, that's a good question, man. So I would say grounded. I mean some of these stories are really hard to fathom.

[Vocab Malone]

What's maybe the hardest one that you.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

That he's healing blindness, he's. People are touching him. He's getting demons out of people's bodies, just off touch, stuff like that. But yeah, I'm also pretty biased because of having filmed so many episodes with psychics and atheists and Islam and Muslims and all, all that, so wary of

[Vocab Malone]

the supernatural claims in general.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I've just had a lot of people talk about the Bible, basically, you know what I mean? So I know I'm a little biased and that that could be into my subconscious.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. But I mean that's pretty awesome in a way if you're kind of recognizing it.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I have to. Yeah.

[Vocab Malone]

Because we all have presuppositions and we all have basic axioms that it's impossible to live life without them.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

95 of our thoughts past age 30 are subconscious.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. And so if you're saying, well, at least I recognize there's some level. But I'm still going to make a go of this, I think that's a good responsible thing. I'd love to hear how the end of your journey is in that.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah, we'll see. You're saying it's 60 books, so it might take a while.

[Vocab Malone]

Well, New Testament's 39. Okay. And let me just show you a visual.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Is that.

[Vocab Malone]

Okay, real quick. So if, if we have this Bible in front of us, right. I'm going to go to the beginning of Matthew and I'm going to show you. I'm going to take out my notes in the back here so it doesn't look more intimidating. It is. This section is the New Testament.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Oh, that's it.

[Vocab Malone]

Yes. Oh, that's the old. So it's.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Oh, it's the older is super.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. The old covers thousands of years. This covers less than a century.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Okay. What years were the New Testament from

[Vocab Malone]

the beginning is around. Well, see, it gets tricky but because the ad. Yeah, it gets tricky because of like dating and different things like that. But it seems like Jesus actually was probably born around 4 BC.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Okay. Wow.

[Vocab Malone]

Like, so his. The date that they split it in half. Half is probably not correct. Meaning the 1 mark to the audience. There is no 0 AD. Just quick heads up, not a big deal. If you made that mistake. But it goes 1bc1ad and AD stands for anal Domin, not after death.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Anyways, I'm saying it's so confusing how they did that. I wish they started at one and just went all the way up.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah, well the idea is there's sort of a countdown to Jesus's birth. So when you're over here in the Old Testament, when you're around David's time, like let's say 900 BC you're 900 years before Christ. Then when you hit one ad that's supposed to be his birth, but it's more like four because of some miscalculations.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Wow, that makes it so confusing.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah, but, but basically he still dies around 30 or so.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Got it.

[Vocab Malone]

30 or so.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

33.

[Vocab Malone]

Right, maybe 33. See there's some debate about, about this because the Bible gives you some benchmarks like this person was the governor. Yeah, but it puts it within, within a frame. It doesn't, it doesn't absolutely narrow it.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Got it.

[Vocab Malone]

But, but shorter. Sorry, that was a little long. Basically. So from one ad we'll just say there to about 90 some ad because the last book is probably Revelation. John was an older man when he received a vision of the book of Revelation. And it's singular, not plural. People love to say Revelations. When he received Revelation he was, it was probably around 96. So after that that all the apostles who follow Jesus, disciples, they're all dead. And there is no more New Testament scriptures until you get into the Gnostic Gospels, which are the fraudulent ones written in people's names who are already dead, like the Gospel of, gospel of Thomas, 150 AD. Thomas has been dead for almost a century.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah, I've had a few Gnostic people

[Vocab Malone]

on the show actually I'd love to discuss with them.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Maybe I could set up a debate with one.

[Vocab Malone]

I would love to. And even if someone says, well, I don't know about a debate, I'd love to have a discussion with a Gnostic promotion promoter because I, I think they might be. Well, meaning they're trying to find hidden secret spirituality.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Right.

[Vocab Malone]

But they're doing so in illegitimate places. If they have an interest in historically rooting it.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah. If you could prove the, the books they're reading are fraudulent, that would disprove their whole belief.

[Vocab Malone]

Yes. And I, and I think you can. Let me just give you one quick one. A lot of the Gnostic literature takes place in a 40 day window between the resurrection of Jesus and his ascension. The ascension is when he goes back up to the Father. Well what's that assume? That assumes that the timeline's already been established. If you have the resurrection and the discussions and a lot of the Gnostic documents are post resurrection. That means what are you assuming happened the resurrection? How do you know the resurrection happened from the New Testament documents? Meaning the timeline itself assumes the New Testament timeline has already been established by the actual gospel accounts. It's clearly derivative. Another great example is try to find places that are named in these Gnostic documents. Every now and then you'll get Jerusalem. Where's the geography? You open up the back of your New Testament, it has maps. Why? Because places are constantly mentioned. Beth, say the Cyprus, Malta, Rome. You just go down in there lakes, small lakes like Galilee.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah.

[Vocab Malone]

That's localized knowledge that you do not have because you can't check it out in the library. You can't go online. It's localized devised real time knowledge. The Gnostics clearly do not possess that. So they're not, they're not Jewish, Hebraic or Israel is real in their origin.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Interesting.

[Vocab Malone]

They're derivative.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Wow, that's. That's pretty interesting. You're right. The, the Bible does reference places that are still around today.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah, non stop now there's some. We don't know where they are. And that's because names change.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Right.

[Vocab Malone]

And geography actually change. You know, geography is not identical to the was because of earthquakes and, and volcanoes.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah.

[Vocab Malone]

And. And floods. And the geography of the planet Earth is not identical. So there are some challenges there especially with smaller places.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

What do you think of ancient civilizations that aren't mentioned in the Bible? Do you think there's any truth to some of those?

[Vocab Malone]

Well, they definitely existed. But what do you mean by. What about these ancient civilizations?

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Like how they had basically they were more advanced than us today. Like they built pyramids, they had some sort of energy weapons or technology. Do you think there's any truth to that?

[Vocab Malone]

The provable stuff that is that that is right there. That is I guess I would say undeniable that we got to recognize like the pyramids are clearly there you go inside the pyramid there's clearly structures inside of them. That's not doubt. It should not be doubtable because there it is.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

You don't think slaves built those though.

[Vocab Malone]

So Egyptian practices changed over time where during sometimes slaves were forced to build them. So when we talk about Egypt we're talking about an ancient civilization that runs a large scope of time. So it is is without a doubt true that some of these things were built by slaves in Fact, say you've

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From college sendoffs to retirement, dreams like life is filled with many important milestones. And making sure you have a plan in place to protect the people you love can give you confidence for whatever comes next. State Farm Life Insurance can help protect your family's financial well being through life's milestones. Your State Farm agent can help you choose flexible coverage. You can adjust as your family's needs change. Contact your local State Farm agent today. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Hi, I'm Julianne Moore. I learn a lot from every role, but some things stay with me more than others, like the impact of Alzheimer's disease. It's important to think about brain health now because there's so much we want to do. Acting early to protect brain health may help reduce the risk of dementia from conditions like Alzheimer's disease. Ask your doctor about your risk factors and for a cognitive assessment. Learn [e-mail] this is a paid partnership with Lily. Stitch Fix. Stop shopping. Get styled. A plus on the outfit. Ms. Turner, you are about to slay parent teacher conferences. Oh, these just the most perfect fitting

[Vocab Malone]

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[Vocab Malone]

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[Vocab Malone]

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[Vocab Malone]

They even picture it. They're actually pictures. This is one example. This is not the pyramids, but this is the, the kings. When they're sitting there, it's like a couple, couple like three or four guys, I think they're sitting, one of them has their head missing and they're huge structures around those at the bottom under the feet essentially of these rulers. They show Nubians. Nubians are, have more sort of what we would consider what some of people understand to be African type features versus the Egyptians that are more sort of a mix of peoples. And they literally show, portray Nubian slaves being oppressed by, by the kings. They're literally, they're portraying our enemies are building this stuff for us. They wrote records of it. They're. They're not all though, from my understanding, all built by slave labor, but they were built. Now here's my short version.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah.

[Vocab Malone]

Adam was created perfect. So the original human kind were much more advanced than we give them credit for and had a lot more knowledge that was lost because the lack of ability to really store it like we have now. Now. And so the feats that they achieved are explainable by natural means within this Earth.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

So really, I don't need no aliens.

[Vocab Malone]

I don't need extraterrestrial visitors. And, and even if you can't explain a structure, you don't get to jump to aliens did it.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Vocab Malone]

What's the, what's the proof that it's an alien? Like, you have to prove how you know it's an alien. How do you know aliens have this ability? What about it tells you aliens? It doesn't. Doesn't. You don't get to go, we don't know, therefore aliens. That's the mistake a lot of these people make. It's a logical jump that's unwarranted. So I can say, I don't know how we can sit, but that doesn't mean we're not going to stop figuring it out and learning we can. And if we don't, we still don't get to say, well, therefore aliens.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah.

[Vocab Malone]

So it's a lot of these conspiracy theories in ancient, ancient alien, ancient civilization stuff is based upon bad reasoning. Like people get a lot of information overload, but they've never, ever mastered, and I'm not saying I've mastered, who masters critical thinking, but they haven't really got a grasp on firm critical thinking. So they don't understand how to put together arguments. They don't understand the laws of logic. So they're out here and it sounds good, it's interesting, but it's untrue and irrelevant to your daily life as well, to be honest.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah. Some of these structures, these megalithic structures are massive. So what about potentially nephilim building some of these? Would you be opposed to that?

[Vocab Malone]

A lot of Christians believe in nephilim, which is the idea that some kind of fallen divine beings of some sort had relationships with women. I understand. There's even Christians who believe that. I do not believe it because of my views on ontology. So what does that mean? Whatever those creatures supposed to be, if they're spiritual or demonic, I do not see any mechanism, biblically speaking, when I understand biblical anthropology, the view of the person, how they are having sexual relations and reproducing further, it says that they were marrying. Why are these nephilim wanting to marry human creatures? I don't understand. And if they did that, then why can't they do it now? To me, the ontology is a problem. Okay. So to me, I take Genesis 6, where a lot of this comes out of, as something that is using some ancient words. We're not 100 sure what they mean, and that whatever they are, they're some kind of people. So there can be really big people in Earth's past.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

There was in Peru, for sure. There's elongated schools there.

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. And some of those, from what I've looked at, are legit. Other ones, there's a lot of frauds. I'm not an expert on some of this type of stuff. There's a guy, he's passed now. God bless also. Michael Heiser. Michael Heiser did a show called Fringe Pop 321. And he would try. He. He has a Ph.D. in Old Testament studies. So he has good wherewithal with A and E elements. That's ancient, Near Eastern. And so he's able to track down a lot of these things and his proof, left and right, how much. I mean, people are selling fairy skulls in New Mexico and dead.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

I don't think fairies have skulls.

[Vocab Malone]

Well, they're very skeletons. People selling. Yeah. This is a fairy.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

The whole idea of fairy is they're a celestial non.

[Vocab Malone]

I don't know. I gotta. I got you. Look it up. There's people that. He had some on his desk. He said he was, you know, selling.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Wow.

[Vocab Malone]

Little things like that. And it's. To me, it just seems like it's a racket.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

So that's a scam for sure.

[Vocab Malone]

I think so. So I don't think the Nephilim are involved. I think it can be explained by human ingenuity. There's a good book I like on this called the Genius of Ancient Man. The Genius of Ancient Man. And I think it shows a lot of ways these things are done. Yeah. And shows that it doesn't have to have some fantastical explanation. It's just we don't understand who we are, are as humans and understand what we have been able to accomplish prior to a digital age because the information's been lost.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Got it.

[Vocab Malone]

But if we would just look into it more and look for natural means, we would realize we did do this in the past. We don't need aliens. We don't need.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Because I don't know if we could build some of these right now, to be honest. Some of these megalithic structures in these pyramids maybe.

[Vocab Malone]

I mean, it is possible there's lost arts and lost knowledge, but I would

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

be something we're missing it. Just like when you look at the structures we're building now, it's nowhere close to some of these historic buildings and, and megalithic structures, you know?

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah, maybe. But I mean imagine some of the stuff we've done like the Panama Canal or Hoover Dam. Like if you showed that to ancient peoples, would they have believed that this could have.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Good point.

[Vocab Malone]

There's this, there's this large millennia of distance between their knowledge and cultures and materials that we have and they don't have.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Good point.

[Vocab Malone]

This, this comes into play with stuff in the Bible, for example. The ark. The ark is generally seen as a laughing point for Christianity. You idiots believe that there was this boat floating around with giraffes sticking their heads.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Film.

[Vocab Malone]

They made fun of it in the Young Sheldon Show. He stumped the preacher. It's a famous scene. And then we come to find out that the dimensions for the ark given in the Bible, not in the Epic of Gilgamesh, because that's a cube. Those don't float, are barge. Like it's designed not to go anywhere, but it's designed not to sink. The actual dimensions are just like a modern day barge. Wow. And we learn about the ancient craftsmanship where they would have these really tight wood structures interlocking on the lower level. Including the pegs would be perfectly sealed wood pegs. So there's everything sealed and they'll put a pitch on the outside of it to seal it further. And then there's a second layer inside that. So it's not just one layer, there's a second layer inside. Now people are going to laugh at this. But if you go to Kentucky and you go to the sea, the ark that they have there by with the answers in Genesis outside of Cincinnati, they actually explain some of this and you can laugh at the ark. I understand how people are going to take this, this. But the fact is these things are real. So there are explanations for how this could have been accomplished within our time in space existence. It's not as fantastical as people make it seem based upon a Sunday school drawing upon the wall. You just got to give yourself time to look into it. Now, I'm not denying there's miracles in the account. The Bible says that Yahweh shut the door of the ark. That is clearly miraculous. You're not going to be able to find. You can't prove that in a lab. I understand that. I understand. Understand if you believe the Scripture, you buy into the miraculous. So I'm not acting like it's all naturalistic, understand? But nonetheless, things like that. We say, oh, and you say, what's a cubit? The Bible talks about cubits. The ark is so many cubits. You find out that's a basic measurement based upon the average height of a man from his elbow to the point of his middle finger. It's a basic measurement that literally means you have your measuring with you at all times. Now, someone will say, but that means they're not exactly the same. That's true. True. But in general, it's within a rough distance. Right? A rough distance. And by the way, they understood that we're not all the same size because they tried to get an average guy to be the measuring guy. Basically, that's what a cubit is. It's based upon human proportions. And you read it and you say, this is not as crazy as it sounds. That's, that's what I, I would. So I would encourage people to give the Bible a second look. And the things that you laugh at, look at again and see, is there an explanation for this? There's a reason why the book's endured. There's a reason why people have given their lives to preserve it. There's a reason for that. People just say they're crazy. But maybe there's something else more to it. Maybe it's because the Bible is true.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Noah's Ark, man. Who would have thought, who would have thought that it actually happened? Because a lot of people take it as like a metaphor, right?

[Vocab Malone]

Yeah. And I understand why. I understand why. But I mean, it's, it's interesting. I think the. One of the biggest, biggest structures that we had built after that, I think was something like around the Titanic era. It might have been the Titanic itself, meaning the dimensions were gargantuan. But they've done some interesting studies about the size of an average animal. And if you get the size of an average animal, because people are only thinking elephants, for example, but the size of an average animal is about the size of the sheep. You could fit them all in there and you're not taking. You're not taking any aquatic animals. That eliminates a large percentage of what would go in there. And I would say some of the fossil record bears this out. The fossil record itself is filled with what's called catastrophism, meaning you constantly have these, these, these strange things like fossil graveyards. People don't learn about these as much as they should. You have all these types of different creatures, including fresh water and salt water together in these massive fossil graveyards. The only explanation from what I've been able to understand is massive bodies of water by force, dumping all these dead creatures together. We have examples of fish being buried with animals partially digested. That's. That's rapid burial. That's not that slow burial you're taught in school. That's rapper burial. Wow. So how do you have that. How do you have undissolved dandelions in the. In the stomachs of like, woolly mammoths, which is a real thing. Also, how do you have the flowers up there in the first place? That ecosystem of the earth prior to the deluge, the great deluge, as the flood is called. It must have been different. Now, I'm not an expert on this. This. This gets into engineering and high hydraulic elements and whatnot, but I've looked in some of this because I. I want to believe what's true.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah.

[Vocab Malone]

You know, you want to believe what's true. You don't just believe random stuff because it makes you feel good.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Agreed. I think there's no doubt a flood happened. Almost every religion talks about it.

[Vocab Malone]

That's what's so fascinating. All. All of them. Yeah. There's a good book on that called Echoes of Ararat. Because Ararat is the mountain they landed on and speaks of all these flood legends. And the question is, if all these cultures have floodlanges, maybe there's a real event that goes back to.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Yeah, that was Noah riding that ship, baby. Yeah. Yeah. What a legend.

[Vocab Malone]

Captain Noah.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Captain Noah. Dude, this was great. I can't wait to set up a debate for you. Where can people find you in the meantime, man?

[Vocab Malone]

Just social media vocab alone. The may place I'm at is my YouTube channel, YouTube channel.com alone. I do live streams and I do like to do shows where I'll take on people who want to call in and I call it the smoke room. And they don't have to call to ru, but they can call to r you if they want to.

[Sean (Interviewer/Host)]

Nice. Check them out, guys. We'll link it below. Peace. Thanks for watching all the way to the end guys. Please hit like and subscribe. It helps us grow the show and helps us get bigger guests. Thank you so much.

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