James Fishback: Meritocracy vs DEI: The Business Case You Need to Know | DSH #1492

Summary

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Digital Social Hour Episode Summary

Episode Overview

Title: Meritocracy vs DEI: The Business Case You Need to Know
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: James Fishback, Founder of Incubate Debate and Azoria 500 Meritocracy Fund
Release Date: August 15, 2025

In this episode, Sean Kelly sits down with James Fishback to discuss the merits and pitfalls of DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) in corporate America versus a strict meritocratic approach. Fishback shares insights from his experience founding a fast-growing national debate league and launching an "anti-DEI" investment fund, making a case for performance-based hiring and investment. The talk covers debate culture, business case studies, and the political landscape, using candid and sometimes provocative arguments.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Value of Debate for Youth

Timestamp: 01:10–05:39

• Fishback explains how debate changed his life, helping him overcome a stutter and develop critical thinking.
• Debate as a Life Skill:
  “Going to a debate tournament every other weekend for four years straight and debating immigration, economic policy… will help you get rid of your stutter as well as other benefits.” — James Fishback (01:21)
• Top debaters aren’t about being the loudest, but the best listeners:
  “I think the best debater listens more than they speak, and when they speak, they're responding to what they listened.” — James Fishback (01:53)
• Fishback admires debaters like Ted Cruz, Destiny, and Pete Buttigieg for their style and substance, even when disagreeing with their politics.
• He also praises the adaptability of young debaters who must argue both sides of an issue, regardless of their personal stance.

Specificity Breeds Credibility in Debate

Timestamp: 03:15–05:20

• Citing Destiny’s advice at an Incubate national tournament:
  “Specificity breeds credibility. The more you know and the more specific you can be about a topic, the better debater you will be, because the more confident you will be and the more credibility you'll have in the eyes of your audience.” — James Fishback (03:27)
• Fishback highlights the power of facts over generalities in persuading an audience and representing people with dignity.

Incubate Debate: Democratizing Argument

Timestamp: 06:05–07:04

• Less than 1% of American schools have an active debate team. Incubate now offers a free toolkit to 12,000 teachers for in-class debates tied to curriculum.
• “Instead of the 18th quiz or the ninth essay, let’s give teachers the tools to equip their students to debate in the classroom… Our goal is to get 1 million young people in America in the classroom debating by 2030.” — James Fishback (06:15)

The Azoria 500 Meritocracy Fund

Timestamp: 07:08–09:46

• Fishback announces the launch of the Azoria 500 Meritocracy Fund ("an anti-DEI fund"), which only invests in S&P 500 companies hiring based on merit rather than diversity quotas.
  • Companies like Nike and Starbucks are excluded for explicit hiring targets.
  • Examples of included companies: Nvidia, Tesla, Microsoft.
• The Business Case Against DEI:
  • “Those 37 companies with DEI hiring quotas… have underperformed the stock market over the last two years by 19 points.” — James Fishback (08:52)
  • “I’m making the bet of my career that meritocracy will outperform DEI, and we’ll come back in two years and revisit this.” — James Fishback (09:30)
• Critique of Forced Diversity:
  • “People will say, well, you’re against diversity. No, I say diversity is a beautiful thing. Natural diversity… Forced diversity is bad. It’s bad for all sorts of reasons.” — James Fishback (10:22)
• He draws an analogy to arranged marriage, making the case that forced outcomes (whether in marriage or diversity) can damage morale and trust.
• The fund saw $16 million in inflows on its first Friday.

Broader Perspective: Merit, Results, and Social Policy

Timestamp: 09:49–12:12

• Fishback clarifies he’s not motivated by politics but by financial performance, yet is open about his conservative voting history.
• Slams BlackRock and major funds for "copy-paste" S&P 500 investing instead of evaluating actual policies’ impacts.
• “We have natural diversity in America. We don't need to force diverse outcomes.” — James Fishback (11:07)
• Host Sean Kelly agrees with the meritocratic stance:
  “I've always been results oriented. I don't care what you look like, what gender. That's capitalism.” — Sean Kelly (12:05)

Policy Advocacy and Political Outlook (Post-2024 Election)

Timestamp: 12:17–15:25

• Fishback discusses hopes for policy progress under President Trump’s "America First" agenda, claiming a national mandate after an election win.
• Cites perceived improvements: inflation down, border closed, and crackdowns on illegal labor.
• Shares anecdote about a Nebraska meatpacking facility:
  “…dozens of Americans showed up and wanted those jobs. The idea that Americans don’t want these jobs is preposterous… It’s because they were reluctant to do it at the wage they were offering.” — James Fishback (14:03)
• Strong critique of what he characterizes as Democratic policy on immigration and labor.

Outro: Where to Learn More

Timestamp: 15:25–15:43

• Azoria 500 Meritocracy Fund (SPXM): Available on popular trading platforms.
• Incubate Debate League: incubatedebate.org
• Twitter/X handle: @JamesFishback

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Notable Quotes

• “Specificity breeds credibility.” — James Fishback, recounting Destiny’s advice (03:27)
• “Those 37 companies with DEI hiring quotas… have underperformed the stock market over the last two years by 19 points.” — James Fishback (08:52)
• “Diversity is a beautiful thing. Natural diversity… Forced diversity is bad.” — James Fishback (10:22)
• “Imagine what that does for company morale, employee trust, telling employers you can’t hire people who are eminently qualified because they’re not diverse enough… It’s a recipe for disaster.” — James Fishback (11:16)
• “I've always been results oriented. I don't care what you look like, what gender. That's capitalism.” — Sean Kelly (12:05)
• “What President Trump is standing for is the dignity of every American worker… Americans don’t deserve to be robbed of having a job and having the… dignity that comes with holding down a job in America.” — James Fishback (15:10)

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Key Segments with Timestamps

• Opening DEI/Meritocracy Discussion: 00:40–01:10
• Debate Changed My Life: 01:21–01:36
• Skills of a Great Debater: 01:40–03:09
• Specificity Breeds Credibility: 03:15–05:20
• Incubate Debate League Initiative: 06:05–07:04
• Azoria 500 Fund and Business Case: 07:08–09:46
• DEI vs. Natural Diversity: 10:22–11:16
• Policy and Workplace Morale: 12:17–14:22
• How to Follow James and His Projects: 15:25–15:43

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Tone and Takeaway

James Fishback brings a mix of personal anecdote, direct business critique, and cultural commentary, challenging widely adopted DEI measures in favor of pure meritocracy. The episode is candid and opinionated, aiming to provoke thought as much as inform. Both he and Sean Kelly agree that excellence and individual ability should trump quota-based strategies, offering a clear and controversial business case to support their view.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

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It means you hire.

[James Fishback]

People not on the color of their skin or on their gender, but on their skills and abilities and nothing else. And so a company like Nike says that they mandate 35% of their workforce in the US be racially and ethnically diverse.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow.

[James Fishback]

What on earth does that have to do with selling a pair of Jordans at a property foreign.

[Sean Kelly]

Okay, guys, we got James here, founder of Incubate Debate, one of the fastest growing debate leagues in America. Thanks for coming on, man.

[James Fishback]

My pleasure, Sean.

[Sean Kelly]

What a good skill to teach young people, right?

[James Fishback]

It's an important skill. It changed my life.

[Sean Kelly]

How to change your life?

[James Fishback]

I had a really bad starter growing up. I was thrown on the high school debate team by accident. I needed an extracurricular and they threw me in. And it turns out going to a debate tournament every other weekend for four years straight and debating immigration economic policy will help you get rid of your stutter and other benefits as well.

[Sean Kelly]

Nice. So as someone super well versed in debates, who are your goats of debating?

[James Fishback]

Gosh, let me first preface it by saying I may not agree with these people in terms of their own politics, but I appreciate their style. I think that Ted Cruz is a great debater.

[Sean Kelly]

Really.

[James Fishback]

I think Destiny's a great debater. I think that Pete Buttigieg, who is not seen as really a debater, but he went on Jubilee right before the election and was talking to voters. I disagree with a lot of what he said as an unapologetic conservative. Thought he did a really good job of listening. I think the best debater listens more than they speak, and when they speak, they're responding to what they listened. And so there's a lot to that. And then, you know, I think President Reagan's a classic. I think there's a lot of, a lot of skill to what Trump does, which is when he was on that debate stage in 2016, there were 16 people he had to win. He won pretty much every time. There's a unique style that he has to stand out. But my favorite debaters, I'm going to tell you, are the students in Incubate debate what they do. People like James Saban, Rodrigo de Leon Ruiz, JC Swearing, Jen, Sofia Cristodolu, William Kiker. These are students that inspire me and I think inspire a lot of people when they go into a round not knowing which side they're going to be on, Sean. On whether it's supporting or being against Doge, supporting or being against mass deportations. And then at the flip of a. Of a dime, they are on a different side. They didn't necessarily support, but they're debating with that same fervor and analytical prowess.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow. That's impressive. So they got to be well versed in both sides.

[James Fishback]

They have to be.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah. Because if you know your opponent better than they know themselves, then.

[James Fishback]

That's right.

[Sean Kelly]

You got the edge. Right?

[James Fishback]

Absolutely do.

[Sean Kelly]

That's so cool. Wow. Listen, more than they. They speak. Because when you think of debate, you think of someone that's like speaking, leading the way, Right?

[James Fishback]

That's right. And destiny. I mean, look, again, politics aside, I respect the heck out of him. He actually came to our Incubate national tournament last month, didn't just debate students, but judged the final round.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow.

[James Fishback]

And gave students a lot of pointers that were not political in nature, just different ways to approach debate. One thing that he said that really struck with me, that we've talked a lot about Incubate is specificity breeds credibility. The more, you know and the more specific you can be about a topic, the better debater you will be, because the more confident you will be and the more credibility you'll have in the eyes of your audience.

[Sean Kelly]

Right.

[James Fishback]

So, for example, if you're talking about a government agency laid off certain workers, what's the name of that government agency? When did they lay them off? How many did they lay off? And the people they laid off, what did they actually do? If you know all of that, you can represent that position from both sides. And the more credibility you have by rattling off those really interesting facts that show that you actually know what you're talking about. That specificity gives you credibility in the eyes of your audience.

[Sean Kelly]

Absolutely. Because a lot of people make these.

[James Fishback]

Broad statements, very broad statements. They'll say things like, there was enormous job loss because of Doge. Right. Well, give us a number. There was an enormous amount of casualties in the war in Iraq. There's actually a number. Give us that number. There are too many people who die and at the hands of urban violence. Give Us that number one. I think just the debating aside, the folks who are in that issue, who are living that issue, whether they lost their lives or families, knew someone who lost their life or lost their job, they deserve the dignity of being represented not by general generalities, but by the specific numbers that speak to their situation. And then as a debating practice, it's really darn impressive. If you actually can have those specifics, anybody can come on and say a lot. Enormous. Significantly, if you can give us actual dates, times and places and actual numbers, huge debate success. And the biggest part no one talks about is it makes you more confident. And when you're confident, you project that confidence outward.

[Sean Kelly]

Right. It's such a good skill to have. I wish more schools took it serious. I remember when I was growing up, I was one of those kids that made fun of the debate team, like classic bullying or whatever. But now I have so much respect for debaters. Yes, because you really got to be. It's a skill.

[James Fishback]

It's an absolute skill. And the truth is, as much as I'd love to see a debate team at every school in America.

[Sean Kelly]

All right, guys, Sean Kelly here, host of the Digital Social hour podcast, just filmed 33amazing episodes at Student Action Summit. Shout out to Code Health. You know, sponsor these episodes, but also I took them before filming each day. Felt amazing. Just filmed 20 episodes straight, and I'm not even tired, honestly. Much like this, where it's just based off, you know, the code, the codes that are in the saline solution. Code Health has been awesome. Feel the drop and go code yourself.

[James Fishback]

We're not happening anytime soon. Less than 1% of schools have an active competitive debate team. What we're doing at Incubate Debate is we have just launched a toolkit that 12,000 teachers using. It's completely free. It allows those teachers to host in class debates for their students that are directly tied to what students are learning. So, for example, your 10th grade world history teacher, after teaching about World War II, there can be a debate about whether or not the US needed to bomb Japan in August of 45, Hiroshima and Nagasaki in order to get them to surrender. So Instead of the 18th quiz or the ninth essay of the semester, let's give teachers the tools to equip their students to put together a platform in the classroom so everyone can participate in debate at least once. In high school. Our goal is to get 20 by 2030 to get 1 million young people in America in the classroom debating. And we're about 25,000 students there so far. And we've got five more years.

[Sean Kelly]

It's going to be exciting. I love that, man. You also got a big fund you just launched, right?

[James Fishback]

So it's a big fund in the New York Stock Exchange this week. It is called the Azoria 500 meritocracy fund. What's great about the Azoria Fund is It's an anti DEI fund, which means it only invests in S&P 500 companies that are meritocracies. To be a meritocracy, it means you hire people not on the color of their skin or on their gender, but on their skills and abilities and nothing else. And so a company like Nike says that they mandate 35% of their workforce in the US be racially and ethnically diverse.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow.

[James Fishback]

What on earth does that have to do with selling a pair of Jordans at a profit? Right. So what we've done is our team has looked at the entire S&P 500. We've identified 37 companies like Nike, Intel, Starbucks, and Airbnb that have these DEI hiring quotas. We've excluded them and the money that would have gone to those S and P companies, we've now redirected into companies that are hiring the best and brightest, like Nvidia, Tesla, Microsoft. And they're not apologizing for hiring the best and brightest. The truth is that black.

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[Sean Kelly]

Thank you.

[James Fishback]

Black Americans, female Americans, Hispanic Americans, they don't need a DEI hiring target to succeed. And the problem is, is that white Americans and Asian Americans who are extremely qualified, are being turned away because they do not meet that rigid definition of diversity. And they don't get to add to that company, add their skills, add their talents. And what happens as a result? Well, you could imagine that the company becomes less successful and less profitable. What we found is those 37 companies with DEI hiring quotas, they have underperformed the stock market over the last two years by 19 points.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow.

[James Fishback]

So it's a stupid policy. It's also a financially reckless policy, which is why we've kicked them out, started our own ETF. The ticker is SPXM. And anybody who has an S P500 ETF, take a look at SPXM instead. On just yesterday, Friday, we had $16 million go into our fund in just one day. It's our first week, but on Friday, we had 16 million go into the fund. We're at the start of something special. And I thank all those investors who are moving away from Blackrock, State street and Vanguard, those traditional S&P 500 funds, and putting their money with Azoria, I thank them a lot. It means a lot to have see.

[Sean Kelly]

How that performs over time.

[James Fishback]

Yeah. That's the goal. Right. I'm making the bet of my career that meritocracy will outperform DEI and we'll come back hopefully in two years, Sean, and we'll revisit this. But ultimately, this is one thing that's going to be totally falsifiable. You will know, the public will know whether we were right and they were wrong. And I think we're going to be right.

[Sean Kelly]

What gave you so much conviction? Were you researching this for a while?

[James Fishback]

I was. I spent 10 years working at hedge funds. I started my own if I dropped out of college, and then I worked for a guy named David Einhorn as a macro trader.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah.

[James Fishback]

And so I said the last 10 years, not in the political world as really as a spectator, as someone who voted for Trump proudly, all three times. But I come at this not as trying to make a political statement, but I want to maximize returns for investors. And that's what this fund is all about, is how do we exclude something? Because what BlackRock does is they buy every company in the S&P 500, win, lose or draw. If that company is pursuing a policy that's obviously destructive, that's obviously hurting shareholders, it's obviously not good for employees. BlackRock, per their mandate, has to buy into that company. Azoria doesn't. Our mandate is meritocracy. Their mandate is copy and paste the S and P line, item, line item, line item. And so when you have that flexible mandate to say, if Starbucks is pursuing a bad policy, when they say that 30% of their baristas have to be ethnically diverse again, what on earth does that have to do with making a good cup of coffee at a profit? We have natural diversity in America. We. We don't need to force diverse outcomes. And people will come to me, Sean, and they'll say, well, you're against diversity. No, I say diversity is a beautiful thing. Natural diversity. Right. Marriage is a beautiful thing. Natural marriage. Arranged marriage is bad. Arranged marriage, Forced marriage is bad. Forced diversity is bad. It's bad for all sorts of reasons. But the number one reason it's bad is because what Clarence Thomas talked about when he got into Yale, he didn't know if he got in because of his skills and his talents, or he simply got in because he was a black man. And so what ends up happening is in an environment, in a workforce that's steeped in these DEI quotas, you have employees who look around wondering whether their colleagues or even they themselves deserve to be there. Imagine what that does for company morale, employee trust. Telling employers you can't hire people who are eminently qualified to because they're not diverse enough. And you must hire these people because they meet your arbitrary definition of diversity. It's a recipe for disaster. It's a social experiment. We all know how it's playing out. The last two years have shown massive underperformance. We launched this fund and we're off to a strong start.

[Sean Kelly]

100%. I've always been results oriented. I don't care what you look like, what gender.

[James Fishback]

Exactly.

[Sean Kelly]

Right. Matter. Right.

[James Fishback]

That's right.

[Sean Kelly]

Capitalism.

[James Fishback]

That's capitalism. Maybe. Excellence Capitalism.

[Sean Kelly]

Absolutely. What else other than the fund and the debate are you working on right now?

[James Fishback]

You know.

For me.

I'm thinking about how we could help the President. He got a huge mandate in November as you know. Won all seven swing states. The popular vote, the electoral vote across the board mandate to enact this America first agenda. The truth is voters did their.

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[Sean Kelly]

Go anywhere without it.

[James Fishback]

Part they voted for him. Trump did his part. He's enacting a sweeping agenda that's extremely popular. Inflation is down, the border is closed. Sean, this time last year, 30,000 people a month were coming into our country. We had no idea who they were or where they were coming from. That has ended. We started sending them back. What has happened as a result, Americans can now get jobs again. A meat processing factory in Omaha, Nebraska was raided last month by ice. Those folks who were in the country illegally were sent back home. And guess what happened the next day dozens of Americans showed up and wanted those jobs. The idea that Americans don't want these jobs is preposterous. Here's why. There's no single occupation in America. Not a carpenter, not a plumber, not an agricultural worker. Where native born workers are outnumbered by immigrants. Not a single one. Not a single one. And the second part is to the extent, extent that there are Americans who are reluctant to pick marijuana crops in Southern California, you may have seen the footage this past week. It's because they were reluctant to do it at the wage that they were offering. So what do big companies do who are greedy, who want to pad their profit margins? They exploit cheap labor from migrants from the third world who are desperate and exploit the labor of their children. We saw the footage from California. This a cannabis farm where there were 9, 10 and 11 year olds working the fields. The children of illegal immigrants being exploited. So Chelsea Handler could smoke a blunt. It's absolutely ridiculous. And so it's incredible that the Democrats are dying on this hill of we want our illegal migrant child labor and we want it now. What President Trump is standing for is the dignity of every American worker and to have a living wage and to not have to compete with employers who, who are exploiting illegal labor from the third world. That's not fair to anybody, least of all to the migrants. By the way, they don't deserve to be exploited that way and Americans don't deserve to be robbed of having a job and having the, the income and the wages and the purpose and the dignity that comes with holding down a job in America.

[Sean Kelly]

Absolutely. James, thanks for your time. And where could people find you find the fund and find the debate league.

[James Fishback]

Yeah. So the fund is Ticker sp xm, Robinhood Public Webull, any of those sites, any brokerage you buy stocks, you can look fund. You can learn more@investor zoria.com Our Incubate Debate League is incubatedebate.org and on X. I'm James Fishback.

[Sean Kelly]

Thanks Brian.

[James Fishback]

Thanks Sean.

[Sean Kelly]

Have a good one.

[James Fishback]

Appreciate man.

[Podcast Host]

Yes.