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Digital Social Hour
James O'Keefe: “Fear Is Worse Than Corruption.” | DSH #1764
00:17:43
Sean sits down with James O’Keefe at AmFest (final day) for a raw, high-energy conversation about fear, truth, corruption, and the real cost of doing journalism that threatens power. James breaks down why he believes the system is bigger than any one person, why most people stay silent, and how he personally fights fear by staying locked in on purpose, truth, and mission. He also shares the investigation he’s most proud of — “Line in the Sand” — where he embedded with Venezuelan migrants riding the train of death through Mexico, witnessing the human side of immigration and the money machine behind the border crisis. This episode hits hard: courage vs fear, power vs truth, and why you don’t need thousands… you need a few unbreakable people. What You’ll Learn 🧠 Why fear spreads faster than truth — and how to break it 🎯 How to stay focused on mission when pressure hits 🧱 Why the “illusion of power” keeps corrupt systems alive 🗣️ What it actually takes to blow the whistle (and ...
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- [00:00]
A
I felt the immigrants, sometimes they're vilified. I think it's the system, the border being open and the NGOs in the United States that housed them. It's all about money. And I didn't know that. I went into that investigation thinking, oh, there's some sinister plot. No, no, no. It's all about money.
- [00:21]
B
All right, guys, here at amfest, last day, and we're still alive. We're still here. James o'. Keefe.
- [00:26]
A
We're still doing it.
- [00:27]
B
Yeah.
- [00:27]
A
I have so much energy. I have so much energy.
- [00:30]
B
I saw you at the rave. You had a lot of energy.
- [00:32]
A
I, I. You know, movement begets movement, so that's how it goes. I was drenched in sweat. Yeah, it was. I was doing DJing, dancing, I was singing, I was producing, I was directing. We were in disguise. It was a lot of fun.
- [00:44]
B
Yeah, you had a great event, man. Gave a killer speech, too.
- [00:47]
A
Well, thank you. You saw that? Yeah, I saw you call Cash, because everyone's like, you know, I was raided, and injustice is like, oh, call Pam Bondi. Call Trump. It's like, if the administration of justice requires you personally call the person in charge. I kind of reject the premise, but, okay, I'll call Cash Patel, Put him on speaker. Left him a voicemail. You know, I don't think Cash is a bad guy. I think if you put Jesus Christ in charge of the FBI, he'd probably fail. So it's just the nature of, you know, bureaucracy and corruption, and the system is broken and people are bribed and blackmailed. But as a point, I called him. He said, all right, see what he says. He hasn't called me back yet.
- [01:23]
B
He didn't respond, Doc.
- [01:24]
A
No, I mean, I'm sure he saw.
- [01:25]
B
It, but, yeah, he definitely saw it.
- [01:27]
A
I know him. I met him a couple times. I know his girlfriend. I. I just think this. The system is totally corrupt, and I don't know if it could be saved.
- [01:34]
B
It makes you wonder how much authority he actually has over. Because there's thousands of agents. Right.
- [01:37]
A
I think it's the illusion of power. The illusion. If I put. Again, if I put. You seem like a good guy. If I put you in charge of the FBI, you'd fail, I'd fail, we'd all fail, Jesus would fail. But as a leader, there are certain things you could blow the whistle on it. Like when Bongino. Remember when Bongino tweeted out, I've seen things in the depths of my soul. Like, tell us what it is. Why would you tease us, Dan? I love you, Dan, but just tell us what you saw. So you could blow the whistle on what you see. But that requires enormous courage. We'll see.
- [02:08]
B
Have you spoke to Dan since he announced his departure?
- [02:10]
A
No. I'd love to. I like Dan. I've been on his show and did you know the tweet I'm talking about where he's like a year ago, he's like, I've seen things that have bothered me in the depths of my soul and I think we all want to know what that is.
- [02:21]
B
Everyone thought it was related to the files which got released yesterday. Right, right. Verdacted. But.
- [02:26]
A
And I think it's that people are afraid of what might happen to them if they tell the truth about these things.
- [02:29]
B
Yeah.
- [02:30]
A
And that. And if we, if we all, all are scared. I think fear is worse than corruption. Good people being afraid. Worse than greed and corruption.
- [02:39]
B
Wow.
- [02:40]
A
So if we're all in this together and we just tell the truth, we'll make it. But if we're all afraid, we won't make it.
- [02:46]
B
And a lot of people are living afraid.
- [02:48]
A
I think fear is the worst thing in society. Much, much worse than evil. People doing evil things is good people doing nothing.
- [02:53]
B
How did you get rid of your fear?
- [02:57]
A
How do you get rid of fear? You focus on the goodness, you focus on the passion. Like me. People have the wrong impression. I think about me. I'm an artist, I'm a journalist, which is a form of art. I'm focused on getting the story. I'm not focused on the fear. Don't focus on fear. Focus on the beauty and the truth and the goodness or whatever it is that you're fighting for. Like, I'm also a musician, I'm also a dancer. I'm a warrior poet. I'm not focused on power and ambition. And if you're focused on the ambition and getting power, I think that's when the fear comes in. But if you're focused on, I want the truth and I'm going to be tunnel vision on the truth. I'm not going to let the secondary effects affect me. That's psychologically how I do it. And that's very exciting. Again, I'm having the time of my life. I'm not afraid. Wow. So that's how I do it. So pursuing the truth or passion about the truth, the passion of pursuit of the truth. And it's exciting. That's fun. You know, what a time to be alive. Let's not focus. Like everyone, not everyone, but many people here are like, well, look what they did to Charlie, I don't want them to do that to me.
- [04:07]
B
Right?
- [04:08]
A
And I'm like, listen, Charlie's death, while tragic, man, what a way to go. You inspire a million people. I mean, Charlie, I opened the Bible for the first time in 10 years.
- [04:17]
B
Wow.
- [04:17]
A
I mean, he inspired so many people. And people may not want to hear this, but the outcome, we're all going to end up like Charlie. We're all going to die. The question is, how do you intend to die? Are you going to die in shame doing nothing? Are you going to go out valiantly and courageously? You might gain a few decades if you do nothing and you're in the background, but I think you'd regret that you might die in shame. And I said on stage, what would you give to come back to this moment? What a time to be alive and tell the truth? And I think that you are going to regret it if you don't speak up in this life.
- [04:51]
B
I love that. Yeah. You're at peace with death already. That's impressive.
- [04:54]
A
I think that people who go through enormous pain, enormous shit, incarceration, lawsuits, you begin to have no fear of death. I spoke to some of the guys that were incarcerated during the Biden administration here, and I saw in them, like, what I read in the Gulag Archipelago. I mean, these guys, they have no fear of death. And I was fired from the company I created. And I've been through things that, you know, we walk through the valley in the shadow of death. You just. You're just not afraid of anything anymore. What could they do to me? What are they going to do to me? So that's. You know, I don't know if people wrestle with their own mortality. I don't think people think about that. But you start to realize that your days are numbered here. So it's a cliche, but you gotta get busy living or get busy dying.
- [05:39]
B
Yeah. I love how positive you stay, even though you've seen the worst of humanity with your investigations.
- [05:43]
A
Well, there's a lot of humor in it, too. Like, you remember on the main stage, the professor at George. So I confronted this Georgetown professor of journalism, and I'm like, I'm James Ookie. He's like, no, you're not.
- [05:53]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [05:54]
A
I'm like, I'm James. Okay. And then he runs away and he falls down.
- [05:57]
B
I saw that.
- [05:57]
A
There's a lot of absurdity and irony in the human condition, and it actually makes me laugh. It makes everyone laugh. So there's a lot of humor and Beauty and goodness and irony in everything around us. And I think a lot of it's your perspective. So I guess you could say I've been doing this for 20 years, and I just. I just don't give a fuck anymore. Zero fucks given. I'm going to tell the truth. I think people want the truth. They're hungry for direct truth, and that's my style, and that's where I've arrived.
- [06:31]
B
You've done hundreds, perhaps thousands of investigations. Do you have one that you're most proud of?
- [06:40]
A
I think the film I made. It's called Line in the sand with Anthony Rubin, a YouTuber.
- [06:49]
B
I watched it.
- [06:50]
A
I jumped aboard the train of death, the Train de la Muerte in IRO Puerto, Mexico, and I rode it with the Venezuelans. And that of all the things I've ever done in my life, that, first of all, I thought that was incredible cinema, and I directed and produced that. But I was most proud of that journey and what I discovered doing that. And I had no idea what I would find. Like, you know, the immigration issue was, the humanity of it. I was with these immigrants who were coming from Venezuela to the United States, and they're just trying to survive. And I was. And it really moved me. It almost like I ceased becoming a journalist, and I was like, just a humanitarian, and I was a participant. And by the way, I think many of them are good people. I mean, there might be some there that are bad, but they're mothers with their babies, 6 months old, and they're climbing aboard a moving freight train, and you could get your leg chopped off. Many of the babies get mutilated. And these mothers, they have like a. They're just holding a water and a bolsa, and this is their entire life. And they accepted me as part of their little group. And I was just. I was genuinely moved by their desire to survive and become American. It's called Line in the Sand. I think I'm most proud of. I guess you could call that an undercover investigation. And I was detained by the Mexican National Guard, and they let me go. Anthony Rubin was kidnapped by the cartel before I did it. Geez, these are brave people. That inspired Anthony, inspired me to do it, and of all the things I've ever done. And I was like, man, I could die. Yeah, like, this is like, as close to death as I've ever come. I mean, death is very close. And I didn't know if I was going to be okay. And I saw these Venezuelans trying to get a better life, and it kind of, kind of also made me feel like, wow, you know, you know, the humanity of the situation. So that was probably the most, I'm most proud of that investigation I did.
- [08:41]
B
Sounds like it gave you a new perspective on immigration, everything.
- [08:45]
A
Well, I felt the immigrants, sometimes they're vilified. I think it's the system, the border being open and the NGOs in the United States that house them. It's all about money, right? And I didn't know that. I went into that investigation thinking, oh, there's some sinister plot. No, no, no. It's all about money. And the people that are benefiting from it are like you and me, just people, middle class people that want a job working for these NGOs. HHS spending a trillion dollars or billions of dollars funding it and the cartels making $10,000 per person. There was one moment in that film where I'm at the fence and I put, you know, these things. I put audio recording devices on the border wall and I recorded the cartel cutting through the beam. And I'm standing there and I walk up to retrieve the device and the cartel guys, they get scared cause they don't want to be filmed. They go back into the bush and there's other cartel guys and they go, listen. Speaking in Mexican, Spanish. If you don't go back there and keep cutting that fence, we'll kill you. And it was like, whoa, wow. It's like it gives you a whole new perspective on good versus evil. The Venezuelan is trying to get a better life.
- [10:00]
C
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- [11:09]
A
Sean Cartel. They're going to get killed if they don't do the evil thing. It's just, whoa. And. And I'm a, I'm a filmmaker and I'm a journalist. But where I'm different is I show. I don't tell people. Talk. It's easy to talk, right? But I don't want to tell you. I want to show you. And again, it's called Line in the Sand. We're going to get it distributed, whether it be on Netflix or whatever.
- [11:34]
B
Great.
- [11:34]
A
I mean, Netflix probably doesn't like me, but we're trying because people need to see it. It was very successful on Tucker's platform. But the problem with that is that you have to be a Tucker Carlson subscriber to see it. I want everybody to see this film and we're going to go back and do something like that again in Europe or South America or what have you.
- [11:50]
B
How do people still not recognize you when you go undercover?
- [11:53]
A
How do people not recognize me in? Very complicated question. But the simple answer is most people, even some people here, are so blinded by their love for themselves. They're so in love with themselves. I actually think this is why people, many people in D.C. are actually homosexual. I'm not kidding, I'm not exaggerating. Most people in D.C. are gay. And the ones who are not openly are secretly gay. And I know this. I'm an undercover person. People tell me things. I think it's because there's, you know, and I know narcissist is an overused word. I get that, but it is, let's be honest. We all have a little bit of narcissism in US but in Washington D.C. and in politics in particular, people are so blinded by the love of power and they're so in love with themselves that it's almost like they're in this little psychological cocoon or they're not even paying attention to the guy across from. They will literally not ask me one question about myself.
- [12:54]
B
Wow.
- [12:54]
A
These are not low IQ people. These are Harvard educated people, Georgetown professors, national security people. People with top secret clearances in the Biden White House are sitting across from me, not asking me one question about me. Why? In short, they're in love with themselves. And it creates this weird veneer where they're not. They're making it all about them. So my undercover people, I give them a book. It's called It's Not About Me. It's a great book. Be careful reading it, because you could use it for the wrong reasons. And it's all about making it about the other guy. Listen to the other person, be interested in the other person. People think undercover work is like, oh, we sleep with you. You don't do that. You just express genuine interest in them. And that's what nobody in politics actually does.
- [13:41]
B
Did you watch the New I know you did some Diddy investigations for a bit. You interviewed the VP of Def Jam Atlantic. Did you watch the new Diddy documentary?
- [13:48]
A
No, I need to do that. I have not done that yet. I admit that, and I will do that. Did you?
- [13:51]
B
Yes.
- [13:52]
A
What was it like?
- [13:52]
B
It really painted him as a villain. Yeah.
- [13:56]
A
Well, I will watch that and get back to you. And we did do an advertisement for anybody with access to what happened. And I think the blackmail people say, what's the biggest problem in politics in Hollywood? Blackmail and bribery. They find the compromising information on you and they use that against you or they pay you off, and they both kind of feed off of each other. That's why my show is called My Price is My Life, because I don't give a fuck about jail. That I'm kind of like the quote from. What is it, the casino movie. I'm stupid like that. I don't care about jail. I don't care. You read books in jail. Give you some time to think a little bit. But most people have a price, and sometimes the price is I get compromised. We all have things in our closet. We've all done things we're not proud of. We're all sinners, myself included. And I think people are afraid of that being revealed. The FBI came to my home. I called my lawyer. They snatched the phone out of my hand, logged into my signal, leaked it all. And I said, that's not gonna. I'm not afraid of that. That's not gonna stop me. That's how I roll. But most people don't operate that way. And I think what I'm trying to do is get people to stop being afraid. Just be bold and be honest, and that's what we're going to do.
- [15:16]
B
Have you seen people be more outspoken since you started doing all this? Or would you say people are more afraid?
- [15:21]
A
Well, courage is contagious, and all it takes is one. You know, Charlie. You know, Charlie's, death. You know, we're here at Amfest in the shadow of Charlie's death. And I have seen some people say to me, well, I don't know if I want to go into journalism because look what they did to Charlie, right? Or John F. Kennedy 60 years ago. We're still talking about that. And at the time, people saw the bullet coming out the other side of the neck, right? Or whatever the case may be. Doctors saw it. Thousands of people saw it. And you know what those doctors said? If they can kill a president, they can kill me. And now they're saying, if they can kill Charlie, they can kill me. And it's an unspeakable. There's actually a book called Unspeakable. I hesitate to recommend it because it's so dark. And it's about the JFK assassination. And the problem is, you know, that that kind of fear is symbolic of us all. If they can kill him, they can kill me. But the good news is courage is probably more contagious than fear. So if you can find a couple guys who are willing, like Braveheart or just. That's so much more inspirational than that, than that fear and anxiety thing. And all it takes is one or two or three. We don't need thousands. We need one or two or three. That's my mission. I'm here at Amfest. 30,000 people. Charlie goes. Charlie Kirk actually said he. James, go recruit some undercover people at my conferences.
- [16:40]
B
No way.
- [16:41]
A
But what people don't understand is I don't need thousands. I just need six. I just need. I just need half a dozen undercover people. That's all you need?
- [16:49]
B
Really? That's all you need?
- [16:49]
A
That's all you need? That's all you need because you don't want. You don't want the team too big. You got spies, you got rats.
- [16:55]
B
That's what happened to ufo.
- [16:55]
A
That's what happened to Project Veritas. You have to have unbreakable people who are strong, who cannot be bribed, cannot be coerced. You almost have to be a disciple. You're God fearing, you know, you need to keep the team small. So that's what we're here to do.
- [17:10]
B
Keep your circle small. James, how could people this listening to this support. You watch your films and all that.
- [17:16]
A
Well, I would say OMG is the name of the company. Citizen Journalism foundation is our nonprofit. We're tax deductible now. Journalism is a difficult thing. So we're a nonprofit to fund it. And it's James o' Keefe I. That's James. O K E E F E I I on Instagram, Twitter and X and everywhere else.
- [17:35]
B
Thanks for your time, brother.
- [17:35]
A
Thanks, Sean.
- [17:36]
B
Yep.
- [17:36]
A
Thank you.
- [17:37]
C
I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.