Jerry Wise: Stop Carrying Guilt: How to Reclaim Your True Self | DSH #1535

Summary

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Digital Social Hour – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Jerry Wise: Stop Carrying Guilt: How to Reclaim Your True Self | DSH #1535
Date: September 16, 2025
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Jerry Wise (Therapist, Family Systems Specialist)

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Episode Overview

In this deeply insightful episode, Sean Kelly sits down with Jerry Wise, a respected expert in family systems, addiction recovery, and codependency, to discuss the pervasive impact of narcissistic family dynamics, the roots of guilt and shame, and how individuals can reclaim their authentic selves. Together, they dig into the challenges of growing up in dysfunctional families, the ways these patterns seep into adult life, and actionable strategies for breaking toxic cycles. Expect candid stories, sharp analysis, and empowering advice for anyone seeking to escape guilt and discover who they truly are.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Narcissistic Family Dynamic

[01:29–04:34]

• Jerry describes his own family history, highlighting that outward appearances can hide inner dysfunction.
• Narcissism, he explains, is deeply connected to addiction — it’s a “me-first” disease that warps family roles and priorities.
• Quote:

  “All addiction has a narcissistic bent to it. The whole... an A.A. king baby. The king baby. That’s narcissism.” – Jerry Wise [02:33]

• Narcissistic families revolve around the needs and issues of one member, with everyone else forced to adapt.

2. Hidden Trauma & Family Conditioning

[04:34–07:30]

• Narcissistic traits are extremely common, even if clinical Narcissistic Personality Disorder is less so.
• Many families teach children that their feelings and perspectives are irrelevant.
• Quote:

  “If you grew up in a family where there is a narcissist... your feelings, your thoughts, your beliefs don’t matter. Isn’t that a kind of a narcissistic dynamic?” – Jerry Wise [05:45]

3. Enmeshment & Selfhood

[06:21–09:28]

• Enmeshment is natural in infancy but becomes harmful when it persists into adulthood.
• Dysfunctional families resist the natural process of separating and allowing individuality.
• Quote:

  “It takes a lot of maturity for me to allow you to be a self.” – Jerry Wise [08:49]

4. Healing from Dysfunction: Self-Differentiation

[09:28–12:22]

• When parents won’t change, the work becomes internal: learning self-differentiation and undoing harmful habits.
• Jerry relates his own codependency and how overfunctioning for others keeps people trapped in false selves.
• Quote:

  “If I can help you to stop doing what’s not you, then what is you will start to emerge naturally.” – Jerry Wise [11:36]

5. The Silent Treatment and Unhealthy Coping

[12:28–16:25]

• The silent treatment is an immature, often unconscious behavior; it’s about the other person’s dysfunction, not yours.
• The healthiest response is to observe, not absorb, the behavior.
• Quote:

  “Observing is a lot more powerful than absorbing. Absorbing... will be a holy mess.” – Jerry Wise [15:01]

6. Name Calling, Shaming & Intergenerational Patterns

[18:58–21:27]

• Many parents parent as they were parented, often using power, shaming, or even physical punishment to control.
• Quote:

  “Shaming is the way you parent. That’s 1905… I hope we can begin to move beyond that.” – Jerry Wise [19:09]

• Abuse and corporal punishment may be left behind, but subtle forms of control and shame often persist.

7. Helicopter Parenting & Parental Projection

[22:25–23:54]

• Over-involved parents attempt to live vicariously through their children, failing to let them develop authentic selves.
• Quote:

  “Whenever we haven’t found ourselves, we then have to borrow self from others. And that includes our kids.” – Jerry Wise [23:35]

8. The Dangers of People-Pleasing

[24:57–26:29]

• Children often pursue careers and successes to please their families, not themselves.
• Letting go of people-pleasing—especially towards parents—is a significant, often difficult leap.
• Quote:

  “But that’s a big leap to not please your family and to not please your parents. It is please other people.” – Jerry Wise [26:29]

9. Losing & Rediscovering the Self

[27:00–28:22]

• Jerry shares his personal journey: losing his identity in pastoral roles and only finding himself after hitting bottom.
• Quote:

  “People would say, well, who are you? And I’d say, well, who do you want me to be? … Then I had to go hit bottom before I could say, okay, now I have a chance to be who I want to be.” – Jerry Wise [27:49–28:18]

10. The Myth of the Geographical Cure

[29:53–30:31]

• Merely distancing oneself geographically from family doesn’t heal old wounds—internal work is essential.
• Quote:

  “Moving 2,000 miles away from your family doesn’t get the family out of you.” – Jerry Wise [29:54]

11. Detachment & Differentiation in Practice

[32:05–33:25]

• True healing comes from becoming a distinct, non-reactive self, not just being “anti-family.”
• Quote:

  “We learn to be detached, we learn to grow and we learn to be self differentiated. … There’s a lot of peace and health in that.” – Jerry Wise [31:49]

12. Anger, Reactivity, and Power

[33:43–37:59]

• Sean and Jerry discuss anger as both a survival mechanism and a source of reactivity.
• Letting go of anger can be frightening, as it may feel like losing identity or protection.
• Quote:

  “Anger is a way to be powerful without being powerful.” – Jerry Wise [36:08]

13. Workaholism as Narcissism, the Trap of Productivity

[37:59–41:21]

• Overworking can be another form of avoidance, linked to narcissistic tendencies.
• True self and real happiness aren’t found in productivity or achievement alone.
• Quote:

  “Working can be an alternative to self. … You can be a true self and work hard. It’s just that working is not a replacement for self.” – Jerry Wise [38:33]

14. Real Success & Self-Discovery

[42:37–44:08]

• Self-awareness is vital for lasting happiness and achievement.
• Jerry’s personal crash led him to define his own values, create content, and focus on giving back.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On silent treatment:

  “Silent treatment, though, seems like it’s aimed at me, is not personal. … It’s about their dysfunction and that coming into the process of relating to me.” – Jerry Wise [13:46]

• On the pain of people-pleasing:

  “I was going to be a... study music for my mother and go to law school for my father. What would I like? … If you notice, I’m not doing either of those now.” – Jerry Wise [24:43]

• On systems feelings:

  “Are these feelings, your true feelings? Are these feelings, systems feelings... they are what I’m supposed to feel in this situation and I feel it on cue, but I don’t have to.” – Jerry Wise [44:44–46:06]

• On letting go:

  “You can really let go of guilt and shame. But there is a downside... your family may not be happy with that... but it may be the new beginnings to having a different relationship…” – Jerry Wise [47:25–48:29]

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Key Takeaways

• Narcissism and codependency weave into family systems, affecting self-worth, careers, and relationships.
• Enmeshment and over-pleasing hinder authentic self-development; detachment and self-differentiation are crucial for healing.
• Anger, workaholism, and people-pleasing often mask deeper issues; facing and releasing these patterns is transformative.
• “Systems feelings” are emotional responses conditioned by the family system, especially guilt and shame—they can be unlearned.
• True fulfillment and peace come from knowing and becoming your real self, not from external approval or relentless productivity.

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Notable Timestamps

• [02:33] – Narcissism explained in terms of addiction
• [05:45] – Narcissistic traits in everyday parenting
• [11:36] – How the true self emerges when letting go of overfunctioning
• [15:01] – Observing vs. absorbing dysfunctional behavior
• [19:09] – Intergenerational patterns of shaming and punishment
• [24:43] – Jerry’s personal story of familial expectations
• [29:54] – The myth of the “geographical cure”
• [31:49] – The power of detachment and differentiation
• [36:08] – Anger as “powerless power”
• [38:33] – Workaholism as avoidance and loss of true self
• [44:44–46:06] – Systems feelings vs. true feelings
• [47:25–48:29] – The liberating process of releasing guilt and shame

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Resources & Further Learning

• Website: Jerry Wise Relationship Systems
• YouTube: Free video resources on family systems, self-differentiation, and recovery.
• Programs: “The Road to Self” – an in-depth training for letting go of guilt, shame, and people-pleasing.

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Final Note:
If you’re struggling with family patterns, guilt, or finding your true self, Jerry Wise’s wisdom and resources are a powerful starting point. As he repeats:

“Who do you want to be? And I don’t care what anybody thinks.” – Jerry Wise [43:52]

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Transcript

[Sean]

Mike and Alyssa are always trying to outdo each other. When Alyssa got a small water bottle, Mike showed up with a four litre jug. When Mike started gardening, Alyssa started beekeeping.

[Jerry Wise]

Oh, come on.

[Sean]

They called a truce for their holiday and used Expedia trip planner to collaborate on all the details of their trip. Once there, Mike still did more laps around the pool.

[Jerry Wise]

Whatever.

[Sean]

You were made to outdo your holidays. We were made to help organize the competition.

[Jerry Wise]

Expedia made to travel with parents, name calling, shaming, all of that. It is a way to be powerful when you don't feel powerful and they don't know other ways to be empowered as a parent and they don't know other ways because they haven't learned any other ways and they still practice the old force approach. It is effective in the moment, poorly effective in the long run.

[Sean]

Yeah, it made me rebel. More foreign guys. First guest from Indiana on the show. 1600 episodes. First one from Indiana. Let's go. Jerry Wise.

[Jerry Wise]

It's hilarious. Welcome. Thank you very much. I am from Indiana. I grew up in Indiana and it was a blessing to grow up in Indiana and it also caused some problems. So it's both.

[Sean]

And that's what you cover mainly with your content.

[Jerry Wise]

And that's what I cover.

[Sean]

Trauma problems.

[Jerry Wise]

That's right.

[Sean]

Narcissistic parents.

[Jerry Wise]

That's right.

[Sean]

What got you into that?

[Jerry Wise]

I would say primarily working my own past, my own family. And in its trauma and dynamics, though, it was more hidden because we were seen as kind of the on the outside, looking good family. That didn't mean it was looking good on the inside. And what really got me going, I think, was working with the narcissism in addictions because I became an addiction therapist. Having been a marriage and family therapist, social worker, pastoral counselor, worked in psychiatric practice and the working in inpatient rehab, I began to see that narcissism and how it was really destroying families. And from there I wanted to help those with addiction because all addiction has a narcissistic bent to it. All addiction.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Jerry Wise]

Now, that doesn't mean all alcoholics are narcissistic personality disorder, but alcoholism and all addiction has a narcissistic thread to it. The whole. And they would say, an A.A. king baby. The king baby. That's narcissism. Now that doesn't mean you have the personality disorder, but when you're in your addiction, you are acting like a narcissist. I mean, that's what you're doing. Hopefully then you can cure that with some recovery. But. But then there are Some who actually have narcissistic parents and. And working with. As a family counselor and addictions, I realized, hey, I gotta learn much more about this and my own past and. And began working in. In that way. And from there on started help people with dysfunctional families.

[Sean]

That is fascinating. I never connected narcissism with addiction, but the way you're describing it makes sense.

[Jerry Wise]

Absolutely. It's just an all about me addict. It's an all about me disease. And again, I'm not talking badly about addicts or alcoholics at all. It's just that's the nature of the problem. And that's a good bit of the nature of the problem, which is why it's so difficult to deal with. And then families will orient themselves all around that addiction and that narcissism. Well, let's say there's no addiction, but you have a narcissistic parent. The family orients itself all around the narcissist. And so that's why I call them narcissistic families. And I say narcissistic families. And a lot of people go, oh, well, not everybody's a narcissist. Why do you call it a narcissistic family? Because it's the primary energy of this family and everybody is adjusting around it.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Jerry Wise]

That's why I call it a narcissistic family. Narcissistic family, or an alcoholic family or because it. The whole family gets oriented around that dynamic.

[Sean]

How common are narcissistic families?

[Jerry Wise]

Very common. I think if. If you're talking about narcissistic traits, I would say very common. If you're talking about npd, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, then it's probably lower number. But still, we're talking about a vast number of people, you know, a lot of families. And. And I'm. I'm also less concerned about the label. I'm concerned about what were the dynamics in your family growing up and how did it feel, you know, and if you have a parent, let's say, who are focused on themselves, or a workaholic and see, workaholism has a narcissistic, you know, basis to it because it's an addiction too, or gambling or. And so it has that narcissism in it. And if you grew up in a family where there is a narcissist or a family that focuses on do what we say, what we say is right. Your feelings, your thoughts, your beliefs don't matter. Isn't that a kind of a narcissistic dynamic? You know, you don't matter. We do and we're the parent. That's pretty narcissistic. And a lot of parents were taught to parent that way. And so then we end up with kids who have a lot of unresolved attachments, a lot of enmeshment with those parents and a lot of difficulties that they take right on into adulthood.

[Sean]

That's how I was parented. The parent was always right.

[Jerry Wise]

Always right. You're not that important. You're just a kid. Your feelings. Oh, you don't feel that way, you know, like. Well, that's pretty narcissistic to say to somebody you don't feel that way. I don't know. You're not inside of me. How do you know how I feel? Yeah, but the parent takes that role of you don't feel that way, don't think that way. That's a stupid way to think. That's a stupid way to feel, you know. Well, that's a fairly narcissistic bent to it. And if we are enmeshed with them, which most are, most of our families, well, there's a beginning enmeshment that's important in families. If you're an infant, I absolutely want you to be enmeshed with your mother or your father. Absolutely, please be enmeshed or you won't be healthy. But then as you develop, I want that to become less and less is what we want. That's the natural course of the biological development. And so I want you to become less enmeshed with them.

[Sean]

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[Jerry Wise]

The problem in dysfunctional families is we often don't become less. We continue at that enmeshment and dependency and unresolved attachment stages. And, and the parents also, if they're not very healthy, don't want that to change. You know, they, they have no interest in changing that. I'm your parent, I know what's best. So what you and your grandparents taught me what was best and I'm teaching you what's best, you know, it's like, well, what if I have some ideas? So what, what does that have to do with anything? You know, because that talks more like about selfhood. It takes a lot of maturity for me to allow you to be a self. It takes a lot of maturity on my side to allow you to be yourself. And most people just don't have that maturity, whether it be parent, child, boss, employee or whoever, boyfriend, girlfriend. It takes a lot of maturity to accept the self in others. And I usually try to help people understand that, that most many people are not that mature to accept the selfness of others. Well, that keeps us pretty constrained throughout life. Yeah, that can be a problem.

[Sean]

So if the parents aren't willing to change, I guess what can you really do?

[Jerry Wise]

Well, then you suffer under that regime. That's a dysfunctional family. And we suffer and we survive. Hopefully we survive. That's the hope. And then we have. Then we have to begin doing the work of what was never done. That's where I come. That's where I try to help people. Okay, they didn't do that. They didn't do that. They were abusive in that way, they were narcissistic in that way. Okay, we've got that all understood. Now what are you going to do with you? And let me help you do you with you and learn self differentiation, learning to become self differentiated from all of that. And that can help you to become the person you were always meant to be. And people always ask me, jerry, how do I learn to be my true self? You begin by learning to be. Learning to stop being your own untrue self or your pseudo self. You learn what a pseudo self is and you learn to stop doing that. For example, and I was a very flaming raging codependent, let's say I was a very dependent as a kid. And, and so when someone began to help me understand that, wait a minute. If codependency is about learning to over function for others, and that's a part of codependency, is you over function for other people and under function for yourself and people go, well, how can I be my true self? Let's work on you stopping over functioning and over functioning for others. And let's help you work on functioning more for yourself. Oh, I hadn't thought about that. That might be a. Now you're not going to like the change. You will not like the change because you're used to what's normal for you. You're used to the dynamics of you over functioning as a codependent or enabling that you do or all the things that we do. Parentification. And parentification is a part of. I'm going to be the parent for the parents. And so if I can help you to stop doing what's not you, then what is. You will start to emerge naturally. Naturally. Which is pretty crazy.

[Sean]

Yeah. You're getting down to the root cause.

[Jerry Wise]

Getting down to the root cause, and that becomes a pretty powerful transition.

[Sean]

You made a video on the silent treatment. I got hit with that a lot as a kid. Silent treatment and timeout. Do you think those methods are effective?

[Jerry Wise]

Is silent treatment effective? Well, a lot of things are effective. They just may not be healthy or good things to do. The silent treatment is a very effective tool and usually is done unconsciously. The person who does silent treatment doesn't. Isn't going, hey, I think I'll employ the tool of silent treatment right now. No, they just. They are immature, and that's the only response they can do right now. And. But if you understand that it can be far less catastrophic if you understand. Wait a minute. Because I've had friends do a silent treatment with me, and I go, okay, but this is their silent treatment. It's not my silent treatment. They don't know how to do anything other than be and do the silent treatment. That's all they know how to do. I can't change that, so I need to know. Silent treatment, though, seems like it's aimed at me, is not personal. It really isn't personal. It's not about me. It's about their dysfunction and that coming into the process of relating to me. But it's their dysfunction. I'm not making them do silent treatment. You know, if I say, hey, no, I don't want to go to your party. I'm busy or I'm tired. Oh, well, you don't want to come to my party. Well, no, I didn't say. I just said I. I'm tired. I don't want to come to the party. You know, But I invited you a long time ago. Why don't you come to the party? I just can't. Oh, h. Well, then I'll do silent treatment. Is that silent treatment about me or their own issues? Their own issues now, which is Right, exactly. Why then would I feel hurt about that? It's their hurt that's hurting themselves not.

[Sean]

Yeah, they're projecting.

[Jerry Wise]

They're projecting. And so why do I want to absorb that? I need to observe it. Oh, I'm observing. And that's why observing is a lot more powerful. Than absorbing. Absorbing. That's what we learned in a dysfunctional family. Absorb everything. Good luck. It'll be a holy mess. And so I want to observe. Oh, they're going into this silent treatment mode. And then I can recontact them, talk about them again and talk with them again.

[Sean]

I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.

[Jerry Wise]

And begin to even go, hey, you know, I know it was upsetting I didn't come to your party. You know, I hope sometime we can reconnect. But I'm not begging for it. I'm asking. I'm not, I'm not. Their silent treatment is not going to trigger me pursuing them because then that would be their immaturity triggering my immaturity to pursue them. Oh, I'm so worried that they. Oh, now they won't talk to me now. Oh, I hope they're okay. Hope they're happy with me. I hope they're not unhappy with me. That's a pursuit that we learned long ago. And we need to stop that pursuit pattern.

[Sean]

Yeah, because you're rewarding their behavior.

[Jerry Wise]

You're rewarding it. And not only are you rewarding it, you're participating in an old dysfunctional pattern that's also your own. And I don't want to keep pursuing that pattern. I don't want to keep doing that. And so I will then more calmly, more self focused, way, even hopefully maturely, go. You know, I know it was upsetting to you. And again, I hope we can reconnect sometime. Well, you just really made me mad and I thought you were insensitive. I understand why you might have thought that, but I don't see it that way at all. And I don't. And I don't know how to have you unsee what you see. But I didn't see it that way. And I don't see it that way. It seemed very reasonable in my mind. Obviously it didn't in yours. I don't know how to reconcile that. Love you. Talk to you later. I don't know how to. How do I take somebody's delusion and fix it? Because that isn't what I was doing. I said I'm tired, I can't go. It's not personal that I don't want to go. But how can I fix someone's delusion, whether it be a narcissistic parent, an alcoholic parent, a narcissistic sister. How do I. How do I fix that? Well, I've come to realize I can't, but I can be me staying connected and being a true Jerry my own self with them and also not taking those things personally, because that's not going to help. It's only going to make me upset and not fix the dynamic in any way. It. It just. I will just repeat it, be repeating my own dysfunctional past.

[Sean]

I stopped trying to fix other people. I used to spend a lot of time and effort on that.

[Jerry Wise]

Exactly.

[Sean]

They got to fix themselves. Right.

[Jerry Wise]

I'm afraid they do. And that my reactivity is about me, not about them.

[Sean]

I love that. Another common thing I got hit with growing up was, was name calling, yelling, shaming. That's a common tactic with parents. Right.

[Jerry Wise]

There are many parents who do that. It's a very unhealthy and shaming and guilting way to parent. But, you know, most. A lot of parenting, a lot of parents still use the old notion that shaming is the way you parent. That's. That's 1905. You know that. You know that. I hope we can begin to move beyond that. And people say, oh, you just got to tell those kids what they need to do and be. That's from the 1800s. I mean, what are you. What are you talking about?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

We haven't gone past that to some degree because they're parenting the way they were parented. And my dad parented the way his parent parented him. Now, he did make a change, which is great because I think there was physical abuse.

[Sean]

Yeah. That was common back then.

[Jerry Wise]

Common using a belt. And I had the belt used on me. And then my dad became enlightened, which I'm wholly happy for, because he thought. And in fact, he, as a principal, school. He stopped any corporal punishment.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Jerry Wise]

From school. And that was common. You could get paddled. You could get. You know. And he went, I'm not going to do that. I'm just not going to do that. So I'm very thankful he did that with parents, name calling, shaming, all of that. It is a way to be powerful when you don't feel powerful and they don't know other ways to be empowered as a parent. And they don't know other ways because they haven't learned any other ways. They don't know that their sense of self and relationship is a way to have empowerment in a relationship with your kids. They think you have to use this force, you know, and in fact, there's a great book called Force Power versus Force, you know, and they still practice the old Force approach and it just isn't effect. It is effective in the moment, poorly effective in the long run.

[Sean]

Yeah, it made me rebel more, if anything.

[Jerry Wise]

Exactly. It, it can get you to behave in a certain way. But is that all we're looking for?

[Sean]

When you look at the strictest parents and then as soon as their kids get free in college, they just can't control it.

[Jerry Wise]

And that's the inevitable thing about kids. You can't control them forever. Some parents will try and narcissistic parents will definitely keep trying and they will consider you not being controllable as unlovable. You're not respecting me. You're not being loyal, you're not pleasing God because you're not following me. There's all kinds of things that come as a result of that, but it really comes out of them. An unhealthy view of relationships, life and family dynamics. Yeah, they really, that's what they were taught.

[Sean]

Have you ever seen a helicopter parent relationship with all over the kids?

[Jerry Wise]

Have I ever seen like.

[Sean]

Yes, they're that common. Huh?

[Jerry Wise]

They're, they're only common everywhere. And then the helicopter parent is suffocating and it is the parent trying to live out their life through the kid because they don't know how to become themselves as a self differentiated person. So I will become a self or a person through my children.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

Good luck.

[Sean]

You see it in sports, you see it in music.

[Jerry Wise]

Music in every, every area. I want you to be successful. I want you to be wealthy. I want you to be a celebrity. I want you to be a politician. I want you to be the best engineer. I want you to be. Why? What is in this for you? You know, what is in this for you as a parent? Because they haven't found themselves. And whenever we haven't found ourselves, we then have to borrow self from others. And that includes our kids, friends, spouses. We have to borrow self. And that's not a healthy thing. Yeah, that is not a healthy thing.

[Sean]

I'll see a lot of parents comparing their kids almost like scorecards. You know, it's common in the Asian culture. Like, oh, what university did you get into? What was your gpa?

[Jerry Wise]

That's right. And that what, that's what makes you successful as a person or. Yeah, successful in life. And success in life certainly can include financial college. I mean I went to college. I'm not against learning things and growing and. But yeah, I was going to be a. Study music for my mother and go to law school for my father. Well, what would I like you Know, and if you notice, I'm not doing either of those now. Not that I don't enjoy music, that. Not that I don't. Don't enjoy the law or don't enjoy politics, I enjoy all that. But that isn't who I wanted to be.

[Sean]

A lot of kids go to university for their parents.

[Jerry Wise]

Oh, absolutely, yeah.

[Sean]

Become doctors.

[Jerry Wise]

I have a neurologist friend who became a neurologist because his father was a neurologist and he had to become a well known and successful neurologist and a well researched psychologist or neurologist. But then he's going, I'm not happy.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Jerry Wise]

I go, I know. You know, and that. And, and I have this drive to have to do this. And then after the parent or the parents no longer invest, are invested in that endeavor, he's still in the middle of that endeavor that was started by them and the grandparent who was a neurologist and he's still in that and going, I don't know how to be happy because you got off going on this treadmill to please, you know, your family because there was no other options. Medicine and neurology and becoming a well known researcher in the whole area of neurology. But then you end up with feeling kind of empty because who am I in all this? Well, you're not you. You're right.

[Sean]

Right.

[Jerry Wise]

You are. Living out the family role and the family roles are powerful people.

[Sean]

Pleasing is a dangerous one.

[Jerry Wise]

It's a dangerous, dangerous one.

[Sean]

I had to get rid of that one.

[Jerry Wise]

But that's a big leap to not please your family and to not please your parents. It is please other people. That's a.

[Sean]

Not a lot of people can get there who.

[Jerry Wise]

That's a dangerous, dangerous thing.

[Sean]

Entrepreneurship will do that to you. You kind of have to slowly realize when you're your own boss that you come first.

[Jerry Wise]

You really do. And coming first doesn't mean people don't matter. It just means you can't make you last.

[Sean]

Which is what I used to do.

[Jerry Wise]

And that's what many of us would do. And when I was a priest, a bishop, pastor, pastoral counselor, but it was a priest and a bishop, you know, everybody else needed to come first. In fact, in fact, you know, I think pastoring, not for all pastors, but many pastors, it's paid codependency. And that's the role that you're in. And, and it's really problematic. It can be difficult to function in that way. And then you kind of lose yourself in that whole process. And then I began to go, wait a minute, I can't keep doing this. You know, this is, there's something that is self negating in this and that's not going to help me be me. Of course. And I would say, well, I don't even know who me is, you know. Well, I would say, people would say, well, who are you? And I'd say, well, who do you want me to be? That's the best thing I know to do, you know, that's the best approach.

[Sean]

So you don't even know yourself.

[Jerry Wise]

I, I don't know. I don't know who that guy is. And then I had to go hit bottom before I could say, okay, now I have a chance to be who, who I want to be.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

But it did take a crash to do that.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Jerry Wise]

And, and sometimes we have to hit bottom. Well, many people have to hit bottom before they can hit themselves.

[Sean]

A lot of people, there's people in college right now that are, they don't even know themselves because they're just following what their parents are telling them to do.

[Jerry Wise]

And they follow in that and they feel, well, at least that's better than nothing. But I'm saying, but, but why do you feel you're nothing? You know, you don't have to do all of that. Who, who do you want to be? And, and I think in my way of thinking about growth or development in terms of family life and family dynamics is beginning of recognizing, getting out of the denial you've been in denial that you're not realizing your family. You're not really your own life. The second, second stage is like beginning to deal with the dynamics of the chaos and the dysfunctional life that you lived. And then the third stage is getting the chaos out of you. And that's kind of how I help people grow.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

And because if you can get the chaos out of you, if you can get the family of origin out of you, what's left is you, then let's get the family out of you. And it doesn't matter where you live. Moving 2,000 miles away from your family doesn't get the family out of you.

[Sean]

Really.

[Jerry Wise]

I wish it did. We would call that in the whole 12 step program and in alcohol treatment and we would call that a geographical cure. And people are always doing the geographical cure. Well, then I just won't talk to my family. Do you know that doesn't get your family out of you. That just means you're not going to talk to your family. I mean, which you can choose to do. I mean that's your right. I mean I can't keep you from doing that. But don't think that cure is the cure. That's all I.

[Sean]

You're just pushing it to the back.

[Jerry Wise]

You're just pushing it to the back and thinking that you have made a change and what you've actually done is just done the flip side of the coin. Let's try to do something that is much more self focused so that you can decide for you who you want to be. And who you want to be is not being an anti something. Oh well, I'll just hate my family. That'll make me me. No, it just makes you a hating your family you. I don't know how that makes you a you. But if you notice you're still using the family as the foil. When are you going to be you? And it doesn't mean being the anti family to do that. So we learn to be detached, we learn to grow and we learn to be self differentiated. That I want to be me, which means I am not you and you are not me. And there's a lot of peace and health in that. And so when families go well, why do you live your life that way? As I choose to, you know. Well, that's not right. Guess what? I am not you and you are not me. It's amazing how that works.

[Sean]

We're different people.

[Jerry Wise]

We're different people. But that illumination has not struck a lot of people.

[Sean]

A lot of division within families, whether it's politics or religion. So many ways to divide a family.

[Jerry Wise]

So many ways. And in fact the whole family dynamics is meant for you not to do that. You know that you need to become us.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

What happens if I don't want to be? Well, then there will be consequences.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

And. And can I live through the consequences? Can I do that and still be me and still not be a reactive me? You know, and when. And I think there's a way to live that way. And that's the life of self differentiation. I believe that's the key to living a truly healthy life. Focusing on yourself and not absorbing the toxicity and dynamics of your family of origin and others.

[Sean]

Right.

[Jerry Wise]

And there's a way to do that.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jerry Wise]

That's what I try to help people to do. That's what my 500 videos are about. Over and over again. That I teach the same thing in every video. I just have different topics.

[Sean]

So it's the same philosophy on each.

[Jerry Wise]

Same philosophy all the way through.

[Sean]

Interesting.

[Jerry Wise]

Yes.

[Sean]

Yeah. The reactive stuff is something I'm still working on. I got anger issues. I don't know if it's.

[Jerry Wise]

Who doesn't?

[Sean]

Yeah, you know, childhood trauma or something. Who knows?

[Jerry Wise]

Sure, sure.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's something. I. At least I'm aware now. So, like, when something triggers me, huge. I'll feel the anger coming. Before, I would just lash out or internalize it. At least now I could see it, you know?

[Jerry Wise]

That's right. And then you could, if you're interested, you. I also try to help people go and work on. If you gave up the anger, what would be the downsides?

[Sean]

I gave it up. I don't see any downside. I know anger is not really beneficial for most times.

[Jerry Wise]

No, it is a solution. It is a solution. If we gave up the anger, what would be the problem with that? And everybody goes, oh, well, then I'd be happier. I'd be healthier. I'd be not angry. I'd be. No, no, I understand all that. I'm not denying any of that. You would be. But those upsides are not enough for you to change or let it go. So we need to look at the downsides. And so if I wave a magic wand and you're no longer angry, what would be the problems? And there would be problems. In other words, I may not feel safe. I need this anger to protect myself. I need this anger because I don't know how to be myself without being angry. So I need that anger. I learned that angry response growing up. It's my way of staying balanced. Now, it's not a great way, but it's the way I learned how to do that. And, yeah, if. Or if I didn't have this anger, I would just be weak. No, no. Anger doesn't make you powerful. It actually takes away from you being powerful, actually.

[Sean]

Really?

[Jerry Wise]

Oh, yeah, that's anger. Anger is a way to be powerful without being powerful.

[Sean]

That is an interesting concept because when people are at the gym, they try to get angry so they could lift more.

[Jerry Wise]

Right, Exactly. And. And. And many people, that's not the way to lift more. And now, does angry anger have a certain umph to it? Well, of course it does. But are there different ways to get oomph without going the angry route? And. And I think, oh, yes, there are many ways to that. There are options with that. And I think for me, and I was angry, even though I'm a nice guy, I like other people. I love people, but that doesn't mean I wasn't angry. And I was angry about my lot in life and feeling guilty and ashamed and unworthy. I was very angry about that. And. And to give up that anger felt like I was giving up the only self I had. Well, if you give up that angry approach, you may find there are other ways to be a self without being angry. And I'm not against anger. I'm. Now I'm not against. But usually anger is out of. It comes out of our reactivity. And that was in program long ago. And so reactivity can be fueled by anger or it's noticeable by anger. And so I think there's ways to discover what's underneath that anger.

[Sean]

Yeah. You mentioned earlier a connection between workaholism and narcissism. Could you explain that? Because I work really hard, so I'm curious.

[Jerry Wise]

Many of us do. And certainly I've been an alcoholic. I've been a workaholic. I don't like alcohol enough to be an alcoholic, but I'm sure I could work on it, But I don't think that's the best thing to do. But any ism has. It has a narcissistic side. And so workaholism, or working all the time kind of denies the true self. And I'm not against working hard. I'm not against working well, working efficiently, working hard at things. It's just that working can be an alternative to self. And it's okay, you're free to do that, but you can be a true self and work hard. It's just that working is not a replacement for self. It just never will be. And I know that firsthand. I mean, I know that very much.

[Sean]

Burnout, right?

[Jerry Wise]

Oh, burnout, absolutely. And if I just work harder, then if I work more, what will you be more successful? If you're more successful, what will you be happier? If I am it. And the thing is, that's usually a myth.

[Sean]

Yeah. Never. Never ends.

[Jerry Wise]

It doesn't come through. And I'm not against success. I'm not against money. I'm not against entrepreneurial life. I'm not against working hard. It's just that it's not the way to do it. Definitely not the way to do.

[Sean]

No amount of money, there's no debt leads to happiness.

[Jerry Wise]

It just doesn't. It doesn't reward you in those ways. And. And I think that. Right. Workaholism has that certain narcissistic part in there, because I want to. I'm trying to work hard for the purpose of what you know. And that's the. You know. And can you be successful while truly being yourself? Yes, you can. But if you take the distraction of workaholism. If you take the distraction road, you'll miss your true road.

[Sean]

I could see that. A lot of my friends who are workaholics, I have them take the dark triad test and they all score high in narcissism. So there's definitely a link.

[Jerry Wise]

There's definitely a link.

[Sean]

Yeah, they're working through some traumas.

[Jerry Wise]

They're working through their traumas. And in fact, I'll work harder. I will work harder so I don't have to resolve these traumas.

[Sean]

That's what I did.

[Jerry Wise]

For sure that personally. Absolutely. I'll become better at this. I'll go get this degree, I'll go get that degree. I'll go work harder at being that. If I have more degrees, that will somehow make me somebody. No, it will make you very tired and it will make you. You will have more data, but you may not have more self data and data. Money, self data, money. Knowledge does not equal a true self. But I'm not against any of those things. But it's not the way to those things.

[Sean]

Yeah, you need to work on yourself too. You need to be successful in my eyes these days. You need good self awareness. Not just money, not just physical health. You need it all right?

[Jerry Wise]

And, and I believe it's possible to, you know, really, how would I say the way to true self. Becoming a self is much more powerful. And then you can direct how do you want to be? What do you want to be? And, and that doesn't mean you stop searching after things that are important and money will follow and, and success will follow. And I think for me, I really did decide, okay, after my crash, okay, now I have the chance to who do I want to be?

[Sean]

Bringing about yourself, Right? Yeah, right.

[Jerry Wise]

Who do I want to be? And I don't care what anybody thinks. So let me put out this, this information and material and videos and, and those things so that, that will be more important for me to do that.

[Sean]

Well done. Now you, now you're here, 500 videos later, what's next for you?

[Jerry Wise]

A book. And the book isn't. It is for me, but it isn't for me. A book for me is to take 45 years of experience and offer that to other people. And so I'm hoping to accomplish that.

[Sean]

So Jerry, anything else you want to close off with here before we wrap up?

[Jerry Wise]

I think one of the things I discovered and one of the things that comes with a family systems approach to growth and healing and trauma recovery has to do with how you deal with feelings and Identifying feelings. And one of the things I teach is the importance of learning when it is. Are these feelings, your true feelings? Are these feelings, Systems feelings. They're feelings that you are supposed to feel on cue because you have been taught that or you learned that growing up, for example, with my mother. My mother would, for example, want me to. Jerry, why don't you get. Why is your hair so long? Why haven't you gotten a haircut? Guess what I would feel shame and guilt.

[Sean]

I still got hit with that one from my mother.

[Jerry Wise]

We go, those are systems feelings. They're not my true feelings. They are systems feelings. And they are what I'm supposed to feel in this situation. And I feel it on cue, but I don't have to. And I can learn to identify the difference between. Between my true feelings and systems feelings. And if somebody, if your boss says, you know, why are you doing it this way? Or your parents saying, why are you doing it this way? We can feel systems feelings of shame and guilt because that's what we're supposed to feel. When in actuality, feelings. We can gain more power over ourselves by learning what is the difference between true feelings and systems feelings. And we can also let go of systems feelings. Like, you mean I can let go of shame and guilt? Yeah, you really can let go of that. But there is a downside to letting go of that. Your family may not be happy with that. Others may not be happy with that. Well, that can be freeing and liberating. And so when I begin to talk to people and work with people, they'll say, I just feel such guilt and shame. Are you ready to let go of that? Well, I've been ready for a long time. No, are you ready to let go of that? Do you want to let go of that now? Now, you know there will be some downsides if you do that. Okay. And like with my own mother and relationship I remember dealing with. If I stop feeling shame and guilt, what would be the downside? I'd be happy. Everything would be great. No, I may discover that if I give up this shame and guilt, what kind of relationship then would we have? That's pretty frightening. That may be scary, but it may be the new beginnings to having a different relationship with other people and with your parents and with your family. And I believe that's very important to learn to let go, go of that guilt and shame. And. And I think it can be transformative to do that.

[Sean]

I love that. Jerry, where could people find you, learn from you, and get some advice from you?

[Jerry Wise]

They can go to my website, Jerry Wise Relationship Systems. They can go to my YouTube channel free you free videos out there galore. And I do present a lot of that information because I wanted to give back for all those people who helped me through my difficult time and learning to self differentiate. And I think that I do a lot of training and teaching there. I have some training that's free that you can take advantage of learning to become the self you were never allowed to be. And then I have the program the Road to Self, which is a more intense program and my 45 years of learning that I offer to you at a very modest fee to do the Road to Self program.

[Sean]

I love it. We'll link everything below. Thanks for coming on, Jerry.

[Jerry Wise]

Thank you, Sean. Thank you for offering.

[Sean]

Absolutely. Stay flight back to Indiana.

[Jerry Wise]

Thank you.

[Sean]

All right, check them out, guys.