Digital Social Hour – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Jerry Wise: Stop Carrying Guilt: How to Reclaim Your True Self | DSH #1535
Date: September 16, 2025
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Jerry Wise (Therapist, Family Systems Specialist)

Episode Overview

In this deeply insightful episode, Sean Kelly sits down with Jerry Wise, a respected expert in family systems, addiction recovery, and codependency, to discuss the pervasive impact of narcissistic family dynamics, the roots of guilt and shame, and how individuals can reclaim their authentic selves. Together, they dig into the challenges of growing up in dysfunctional families, the ways these patterns seep into adult life, and actionable strategies for breaking toxic cycles. Expect candid stories, sharp analysis, and empowering advice for anyone seeking to escape guilt and discover who they truly are.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Narcissistic Family Dynamic

[01:29–04:34]

• Jerry describes his own family history, highlighting that outward appearances can hide inner dysfunction.
• Narcissism, he explains, is deeply connected to addiction — it’s a “me-first” disease that warps family roles and priorities.
• Quote:

  “All addiction has a narcissistic bent to it. The whole... an A.A. king baby. The king baby. That’s narcissism.” – Jerry Wise [02:33]

• Narcissistic families revolve around the needs and issues of one member, with everyone else forced to adapt.

2. Hidden Trauma & Family Conditioning

[04:34–07:30]

• Narcissistic traits are extremely common, even if clinical Narcissistic Personality Disorder is less so.
• Many families teach children that their feelings and perspectives are irrelevant.
• Quote:

  “If you grew up in a family where there is a narcissist... your feelings, your thoughts, your beliefs don’t matter. Isn’t that a kind of a narcissistic dynamic?” – Jerry Wise [05:45]

3. Enmeshment & Selfhood

[06:21–09:28]

• Enmeshment is natural in infancy but becomes harmful when it persists into adulthood.
• Dysfunctional families resist the natural process of separating and allowing individuality.
• Quote:

  “It takes a lot of maturity for me to allow you to be a self.” – Jerry Wise [08:49]

4. Healing from Dysfunction: Self-Differentiation

[09:28–12:22]

• When parents won’t change, the work becomes internal: learning self-differentiation and undoing harmful habits.
• Jerry relates his own codependency and how overfunctioning for others keeps people trapped in false selves.
• Quote:

  “If I can help you to stop doing what’s not you, then what is you will start to emerge naturally.” – Jerry Wise [11:36]

5. The Silent Treatment and Unhealthy Coping

[12:28–16:25]

• The silent treatment is an immature, often unconscious behavior; it’s about the other person’s dysfunction, not yours.
• The healthiest response is to observe, not absorb, the behavior.
• Quote:

  “Observing is a lot more powerful than absorbing. Absorbing... will be a holy mess.” – Jerry Wise [15:01]

6. Name Calling, Shaming & Intergenerational Patterns

[18:58–21:27]

• Many parents parent as they were parented, often using power, shaming, or even physical punishment to control.
• Quote:

  “Shaming is the way you parent. That’s 1905… I hope we can begin to move beyond that.” – Jerry Wise [19:09]

• Abuse and corporal punishment may be left behind, but subtle forms of control and shame often persist.

7. Helicopter Parenting & Parental Projection

[22:25–23:54]

• Over-involved parents attempt to live vicariously through their children, failing to let them develop authentic selves.
• Quote:

  “Whenever we haven’t found ourselves, we then have to borrow self from others. And that includes our kids.” – Jerry Wise [23:35]

8. The Dangers of People-Pleasing

[24:57–26:29]

• Children often pursue careers and successes to please their families, not themselves.
• Letting go of people-pleasing—especially towards parents—is a significant, often difficult leap.
• Quote:

  “But that’s a big leap to not please your family and to not please your parents. It is please other people.” – Jerry Wise [26:29]

9. Losing & Rediscovering the Self

[27:00–28:22]

• Jerry shares his personal journey: losing his identity in pastoral roles and only finding himself after hitting bottom.
• Quote:

  “People would say, well, who are you? And I’d say, well, who do you want me to be? … Then I had to go hit bottom before I could say, okay, now I have a chance to be who I want to be.” – Jerry Wise [27:49–28:18]

10. The Myth of the Geographical Cure

[29:53–30:31]

• Merely distancing oneself geographically from family doesn’t heal old wounds—internal work is essential.
• Quote:

  “Moving 2,000 miles away from your family doesn’t get the family out of you.” – Jerry Wise [29:54]

11. Detachment & Differentiation in Practice

[32:05–33:25]

• True healing comes from becoming a distinct, non-reactive self, not just being “anti-family.”
• Quote:

  “We learn to be detached, we learn to grow and we learn to be self differentiated. … There’s a lot of peace and health in that.” – Jerry Wise [31:49]

12. Anger, Reactivity, and Power

[33:43–37:59]

• Sean and Jerry discuss anger as both a survival mechanism and a source of reactivity.
• Letting go of anger can be frightening, as it may feel like losing identity or protection.
• Quote:

  “Anger is a way to be powerful without being powerful.” – Jerry Wise [36:08]

13. Workaholism as Narcissism, the Trap of Productivity

[37:59–41:21]

• Overworking can be another form of avoidance, linked to narcissistic tendencies.
• True self and real happiness aren’t found in productivity or achievement alone.
• Quote:

  “Working can be an alternative to self. … You can be a true self and work hard. It’s just that working is not a replacement for self.” – Jerry Wise [38:33]

14. Real Success & Self-Discovery

[42:37–44:08]

• Self-awareness is vital for lasting happiness and achievement.
• Jerry’s personal crash led him to define his own values, create content, and focus on giving back.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On silent treatment:

  “Silent treatment, though, seems like it’s aimed at me, is not personal. … It’s about their dysfunction and that coming into the process of relating to me.” – Jerry Wise [13:46]

• On the pain of people-pleasing:

  “I was going to be a... study music for my mother and go to law school for my father. What would I like? … If you notice, I’m not doing either of those now.” – Jerry Wise [24:43]

• On systems feelings:

  “Are these feelings, your true feelings? Are these feelings, systems feelings... they are what I’m supposed to feel in this situation and I feel it on cue, but I don’t have to.” – Jerry Wise [44:44–46:06]

• On letting go:

  “You can really let go of guilt and shame. But there is a downside... your family may not be happy with that... but it may be the new beginnings to having a different relationship…” – Jerry Wise [47:25–48:29]

Key Takeaways

• Narcissism and codependency weave into family systems, affecting self-worth, careers, and relationships.
• Enmeshment and over-pleasing hinder authentic self-development; detachment and self-differentiation are crucial for healing.
• Anger, workaholism, and people-pleasing often mask deeper issues; facing and releasing these patterns is transformative.
• “Systems feelings” are emotional responses conditioned by the family system, especially guilt and shame—they can be unlearned.
• True fulfillment and peace come from knowing and becoming your real self, not from external approval or relentless productivity.

Notable Timestamps

• [02:33] – Narcissism explained in terms of addiction
• [05:45] – Narcissistic traits in everyday parenting
• [11:36] – How the true self emerges when letting go of overfunctioning
• [15:01] – Observing vs. absorbing dysfunctional behavior
• [19:09] – Intergenerational patterns of shaming and punishment
• [24:43] – Jerry’s personal story of familial expectations
• [29:54] – The myth of the “geographical cure”
• [31:49] – The power of detachment and differentiation
• [36:08] – Anger as “powerless power”
• [38:33] – Workaholism as avoidance and loss of true self
• [44:44–46:06] – Systems feelings vs. true feelings
• [47:25–48:29] – The liberating process of releasing guilt and shame

Resources & Further Learning

• Website: Jerry Wise Relationship Systems
• YouTube: Free video resources on family systems, self-differentiation, and recovery.
• Programs: “The Road to Self” – an in-depth training for letting go of guilt, shame, and people-pleasing.

Final Note:
If you’re struggling with family patterns, guilt, or finding your true self, Jerry Wise’s wisdom and resources are a powerful starting point. As he repeats:

“Who do you want to be? And I don’t care what anybody thinks.” – Jerry Wise [43:52]