Podcast Summary: Digital Social Hour

Episode: John Dehlin: “No One in a Cult Thinks They’re in a Cult” (Here’s Why) | DSH #1829

Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: John Dehlin
Date: February 16, 2026

Overview

This episode features John Dehlin, prominent ex-Mormon activist, podcast host (Mormon Stories), and outspoken critic of high-demand religions. The conversation delves deeply into the psychology of cults, the organizational structure and global shift of the Mormon Church, the psychological and communal effects of leaving high-demand religion, the fine line between religious harm and benefit, and recent true-crime events tied to religious extremism in Mormon culture. The tone is candid, analytical, and sometimes deeply personal, providing a nuanced view of both the harms and the positive aspects of religion.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Cult Psychology & The BITE Model

• Transparency in High-Demand Orgs:
  • Ex-members demand transparency, but "orthodox, believing, dedicated" members do not and "would never ask the church to do anything" ([00:05]).
• BITE Model Explanation ([03:14]-[05:02]):
  • B: Behavior control – Strict rules (diet, dress, sexuality). "That's a way to condition you to be controlled." (John)
  • I: Information control – Restricting sources, labeling ex-members as apostates.
  • T: Thought control – By shaping allowable info, controlling thought patterns.
  • E: Emotional control – Use of fear and love bombing to keep members compliant.
  • Key Quote:

    "No one who's in a cult thinks they're in a cult." – John ([04:10])

Internet & the Evolution of Mormonism

• The Internet as a Disruptor ([05:09]-[07:11]):
  • Internet forums and podcasts, especially "Mormon Stories," drove massive ex-Mormon community online.
  • "Ex-Mormons lead the ex-religious space by orders of magnitude."
• Growth Shift from Developed to Developing World ([07:11]-[08:56]):
  • Mormonism declining in developed nations; church offsets stats through expansion in Africa.
  • Quote:

    "It's kind of a shell game because the Mormon Church has less than 10% activity rates in the developed world." – John ([08:16])

Mormon Church Wealth & Financial Practices

• Vast Wealth and Asset Structure ([09:12]-[11:30]):
  • Mormon Church's estimated net worth: $300 billion+.
  • "It's for sure, hands down the most wealthy church in the United States."
  • Major landowner (e.g. 2% of Florida’s land) and tax privileges.
• Tithing (10% income) Enforcement ([11:36]-[13:09]):
  • "Ultimate subscription model."
  • Tithing enforced through social pressure and temple access (can't attend own child's wedding without up-to-date tithing).
  • Quote:

    "That's the way they enforce tithe paying...if you're not a full tithe payer, you're not allowed to attend your own Mormon daughter's wedding in the temple." – John ([13:08])

Organizational Power, Control, and Change

• Centralized Church Authority ([14:43]):
  • "The church owns all the temples. It's like McDonald's. It's a very tightly controlled franchise."
• Resistance to Change and Treatment of Dissenters ([17:00]-[17:37]):
  • Church responds to internal critics by excommunicating them (e.g., John Dehlin, Sam Young).
  • "The church does not take feedback, does not want feedback, and it excommunicates people like me that try to give it feedback."
• Case Study—Reform and Reprisal ([17:42]-[20:54]):
  • Sam Young’s "Protect LDS Children" pushed for reforms on child interviews; church adopted minimal change, then excommunicated Young.
  • Memorable Moment:

    "They punish and excommunicate the person calling for change. And then they make the teeniest, tiniest change that they have to, to maintain viability." – John ([20:41])

Social, Mental Health, and Community Impacts

• Ex-Mormons, Atheism, and Trauma ([25:53]-[26:39]):
  • Over half of ex-Mormons become atheists or agnostics due to the “totalistic” nature of the church.
  • "Mormonism is a totalistic religion... it's your identity, it's your meaning, it's your purpose."
• Loneliness vs. Religion ([28:31]-[29:52]):
  • Religion’s main benefit: community—most-needed antidote to modern loneliness.
  • Quote:

    "There is something worse than high demand religion, I think, and that's loneliness... we're seeing dramatic increase in depression, dramatic increase in anxiety disorders, and even dramatically higher suicide rates..." – John ([29:34]-[29:52])

• Religion’s Emotional Value ([29:56]-[30:41]):
  • "There are a lot of healthy, happy Mormons and healthy, happy Mormon families... there's also a lot of health and happiness in religion."

The Mormon Success Network

• Prominent Figures with Mormon Backgrounds ([30:48]-[31:39]):
  • Musicians (Imagine Dragons, The Killers, Neon Trees, David Archuleta, etc.)
  • Authors (Brandon Sanderson, Stephanie Meyer), business and political leaders.

Dehlin’s Personal Experience

• Life After Excommunication ([31:46]-[33:51]):
  • Attended church as a non-believer for years for community’s sake.
  • "I wanted my cake and eat it, too. I wanted a science, evidence-loving worldview, and I wanted my tribe."
  • Misses singing, community, some traditions.
  • Quote:

    "I miss the singing. I miss the spirituality. I miss the community." – John ([34:24])

Religion’s Dual Nature: Do More Good Than Harm?

• John openly maintains that the LDS church, and religion in general, probably does more good than harm—though he’s critical.
  • "My listeners hate it when I say this. But I actually believe the Mormon Church does more good than harm." ([22:03]-[22:23])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [04:10] “No one who's in a cult thinks they're in a cult.” – John Dehlin
• [09:12] “I don't know if people know this, but the Mormon Church is currently estimated to be worth over $300 billion. That's billion with a B.” – John Dehlin
• [13:08] “If you're not a full tithe payer, you're not allowed to attend your own Mormon daughter's wedding in the temple.” – John Dehlin
• [20:41] “They punish and excommunicate the person calling for change. And then they make the teeniest, tiniest change that they have to, to maintain viability.” – John Dehlin
• [29:34] “There is something worse than high demand religion, I think, and that's loneliness.” – John Dehlin
• [34:24] “I miss the singing. I miss the spirituality. I miss the community.” – John Dehlin

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction and Transparency in the Church: [00:00]-[01:15]
• Cult Psychology & BITE Model Explanation: [03:14]-[05:02]
• Mormonism and the Internet Age: [05:09]-[08:56]
• Church Wealth, Assets, and Tithing Enforcement: [09:12]-[13:09]
• Organizational Structure and Central Control: [14:43]-[15:29]
• Handling of Change & Dissent (Sam Young Story): [17:42]-[20:54]
• Excommunication and Personal Impact: [21:01]-[22:50], [31:46]-[33:51]
• Religion, Community, and Loneliness: [25:03]-[30:41]
• Prominent Mormons & Success Network: [30:48]-[31:39]
• True Crime & Religion in Recent Events (Ruby Franke case): [34:46]-[38:41]

Notable Case: Ruby Franke & the Dangers of Religious Extremism

• Upcoming HBO Documentary Featuring Dehlin ([35:02]-[38:41]):
  • Details the abuse and indoctrination in a high-profile Mormon YouTube family.
  • Example of religion’s potential for harm when corrupted or taken to extremes.
  • “It shows how religion, you know, I talk about the good of religion, but religion can also do significant harm. And this is the example of where religion goes wrong.” – John ([37:59])

Closing Thoughts

Throughout the episode, John Dehlin and Sean Kelly provide a balanced, informed, and occasionally personal take on the nature of high-demand religions like Mormonism. The discussion frequently returns to the double-edged sword of religious belonging: its potential for both deep harm and great good. Dehlin encourages listeners and believers to pursue informed consent and to seek community, whether inside or outside traditional religious frameworks.

(All timestamps in MM:SS format; ads and off-topic sections omitted.)