John Dehlin: “No One in a Cult Thinks They’re in a Cult” (Here’s Why) | DSH #1829

Summary

Podcast Summary: Digital Social Hour

Episode: John Dehlin: “No One in a Cult Thinks They’re in a Cult” (Here’s Why) | DSH #1829

Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: John Dehlin
Date: February 16, 2026

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Overview

This episode features John Dehlin, prominent ex-Mormon activist, podcast host (Mormon Stories), and outspoken critic of high-demand religions. The conversation delves deeply into the psychology of cults, the organizational structure and global shift of the Mormon Church, the psychological and communal effects of leaving high-demand religion, the fine line between religious harm and benefit, and recent true-crime events tied to religious extremism in Mormon culture. The tone is candid, analytical, and sometimes deeply personal, providing a nuanced view of both the harms and the positive aspects of religion.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Cult Psychology & The BITE Model

• Transparency in High-Demand Orgs:
  • Ex-members demand transparency, but "orthodox, believing, dedicated" members do not and "would never ask the church to do anything" ([00:05]).
• BITE Model Explanation ([03:14]-[05:02]):
  • B: Behavior control – Strict rules (diet, dress, sexuality). "That's a way to condition you to be controlled." (John)
  • I: Information control – Restricting sources, labeling ex-members as apostates.
  • T: Thought control – By shaping allowable info, controlling thought patterns.
  • E: Emotional control – Use of fear and love bombing to keep members compliant.
  • Key Quote:

    "No one who's in a cult thinks they're in a cult." – John ([04:10])

Internet & the Evolution of Mormonism

• The Internet as a Disruptor ([05:09]-[07:11]):
  • Internet forums and podcasts, especially "Mormon Stories," drove massive ex-Mormon community online.
  • "Ex-Mormons lead the ex-religious space by orders of magnitude."
• Growth Shift from Developed to Developing World ([07:11]-[08:56]):
  • Mormonism declining in developed nations; church offsets stats through expansion in Africa.
  • Quote:

    "It's kind of a shell game because the Mormon Church has less than 10% activity rates in the developed world." – John ([08:16])

Mormon Church Wealth & Financial Practices

• Vast Wealth and Asset Structure ([09:12]-[11:30]):
  • Mormon Church's estimated net worth: $300 billion+.
  • "It's for sure, hands down the most wealthy church in the United States."
  • Major landowner (e.g. 2% of Florida’s land) and tax privileges.
• Tithing (10% income) Enforcement ([11:36]-[13:09]):
  • "Ultimate subscription model."
  • Tithing enforced through social pressure and temple access (can't attend own child's wedding without up-to-date tithing).
  • Quote:

    "That's the way they enforce tithe paying...if you're not a full tithe payer, you're not allowed to attend your own Mormon daughter's wedding in the temple." – John ([13:08])

Organizational Power, Control, and Change

• Centralized Church Authority ([14:43]):
  • "The church owns all the temples. It's like McDonald's. It's a very tightly controlled franchise."
• Resistance to Change and Treatment of Dissenters ([17:00]-[17:37]):
  • Church responds to internal critics by excommunicating them (e.g., John Dehlin, Sam Young).
  • "The church does not take feedback, does not want feedback, and it excommunicates people like me that try to give it feedback."
• Case Study—Reform and Reprisal ([17:42]-[20:54]):
  • Sam Young’s "Protect LDS Children" pushed for reforms on child interviews; church adopted minimal change, then excommunicated Young.
  • Memorable Moment:

    "They punish and excommunicate the person calling for change. And then they make the teeniest, tiniest change that they have to, to maintain viability." – John ([20:41])

Social, Mental Health, and Community Impacts

• Ex-Mormons, Atheism, and Trauma ([25:53]-[26:39]):
  • Over half of ex-Mormons become atheists or agnostics due to the “totalistic” nature of the church.
  • "Mormonism is a totalistic religion... it's your identity, it's your meaning, it's your purpose."
• Loneliness vs. Religion ([28:31]-[29:52]):
  • Religion’s main benefit: community—most-needed antidote to modern loneliness.
  • Quote:

    "There is something worse than high demand religion, I think, and that's loneliness... we're seeing dramatic increase in depression, dramatic increase in anxiety disorders, and even dramatically higher suicide rates..." – John ([29:34]-[29:52])

• Religion’s Emotional Value ([29:56]-[30:41]):
  • "There are a lot of healthy, happy Mormons and healthy, happy Mormon families... there's also a lot of health and happiness in religion."

The Mormon Success Network

• Prominent Figures with Mormon Backgrounds ([30:48]-[31:39]):
  • Musicians (Imagine Dragons, The Killers, Neon Trees, David Archuleta, etc.)
  • Authors (Brandon Sanderson, Stephanie Meyer), business and political leaders.

Dehlin’s Personal Experience

• Life After Excommunication ([31:46]-[33:51]):
  • Attended church as a non-believer for years for community’s sake.
  • "I wanted my cake and eat it, too. I wanted a science, evidence-loving worldview, and I wanted my tribe."
  • Misses singing, community, some traditions.
  • Quote:

    "I miss the singing. I miss the spirituality. I miss the community." – John ([34:24])

Religion’s Dual Nature: Do More Good Than Harm?

• John openly maintains that the LDS church, and religion in general, probably does more good than harm—though he’s critical.
  • "My listeners hate it when I say this. But I actually believe the Mormon Church does more good than harm." ([22:03]-[22:23])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [04:10] “No one who's in a cult thinks they're in a cult.” – John Dehlin
• [09:12] “I don't know if people know this, but the Mormon Church is currently estimated to be worth over $300 billion. That's billion with a B.” – John Dehlin
• [13:08] “If you're not a full tithe payer, you're not allowed to attend your own Mormon daughter's wedding in the temple.” – John Dehlin
• [20:41] “They punish and excommunicate the person calling for change. And then they make the teeniest, tiniest change that they have to, to maintain viability.” – John Dehlin
• [29:34] “There is something worse than high demand religion, I think, and that's loneliness.” – John Dehlin
• [34:24] “I miss the singing. I miss the spirituality. I miss the community.” – John Dehlin

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction and Transparency in the Church: [00:00]-[01:15]
• Cult Psychology & BITE Model Explanation: [03:14]-[05:02]
• Mormonism and the Internet Age: [05:09]-[08:56]
• Church Wealth, Assets, and Tithing Enforcement: [09:12]-[13:09]
• Organizational Structure and Central Control: [14:43]-[15:29]
• Handling of Change & Dissent (Sam Young Story): [17:42]-[20:54]
• Excommunication and Personal Impact: [21:01]-[22:50], [31:46]-[33:51]
• Religion, Community, and Loneliness: [25:03]-[30:41]
• Prominent Mormons & Success Network: [30:48]-[31:39]
• True Crime & Religion in Recent Events (Ruby Franke case): [34:46]-[38:41]

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Notable Case: Ruby Franke & the Dangers of Religious Extremism

• Upcoming HBO Documentary Featuring Dehlin ([35:02]-[38:41]):
  • Details the abuse and indoctrination in a high-profile Mormon YouTube family.
  • Example of religion’s potential for harm when corrupted or taken to extremes.
  • “It shows how religion, you know, I talk about the good of religion, but religion can also do significant harm. And this is the example of where religion goes wrong.” – John ([37:59])

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Closing Thoughts

Throughout the episode, John Dehlin and Sean Kelly provide a balanced, informed, and occasionally personal take on the nature of high-demand religions like Mormonism. The discussion frequently returns to the double-edged sword of religious belonging: its potential for both deep harm and great good. Dehlin encourages listeners and believers to pursue informed consent and to seek community, whether inside or outside traditional religious frameworks.

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(All timestamps in MM:SS format; ads and off-topic sections omitted.)

Transcript

[A]

I'm sure.

[B]

Now members are kind of asking for transparency though, right?

[A]

No.

[B]

Oh, they're not? No, they're scared to ask.

[A]

Ex members are asking for transparency. Okay. But you know, again, going back to the bite model, there's such belief in devotion in the church. If you're an orthodox, believing, dedicated member, you would never ask the church to do anything. The church tells you what to do and what to think. You would never ask the church to change. Once your mindset is starting to say, wait, the church needs to change, that's pretty much the beginning of the end of your commitment to the.

[B]

The church.

[A]

Because the church does not take feedback, does not want feedback, and it excommunicates people like me that try to give it feedback.

[B]

Okay, guys, got John back on the show today. It's been about a year and a half and it's his birthday, so wish him happy birthday, guys.

[A]

Thanks for coming on, man. It's a pleasure to be here.

[B]

Yeah. What's new with you since we last seen each other?

[A]

Oh, man, just more of the same. Just creating Mormon themed content for the world. It's interesting that over half my audience has never been Mormon. So while we started out just trying to support Mormons who are having questions or doubts or problems, so many other people in the world are fascinated either with Mormons or see their own stories.

[B]

Wow. In the Mormon story, I would have never guessed that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would assume a lot of them have some sort of ties to it that. Watch your stuff.

[A]

It's ex Catholics. Exactly. Evangelical Christians, ex Jehovah's Witnesses, ex Scientologists, ex Jews. Like it's. And it's just people who are interested in cults.

[B]

Yeah. So trauma bonding.

[A]

Trauma bonding.

[B]

Do you see a lot of similarities between those? Because I know you've interviewed people from all sorts of religious backgrounds, Right.

[A]

Yeah. I like to say the Mormon story is the human story because there are different types of cults. You know, there's religious cults, but I think political cults, corporate cults, Gilga cults, new age cults, they all share characteristics. So it's just humans tend to want someone in authority to lead up and tell them how to live their life. And there's plenty of charlatans who are willing to step up or well meaning people that are willing to step up and fill the roles that people need and then power corrupts.

[B]

I see a lot of religion entering politics now, especially on the conservative side, which with Christianity. Have you seen that?

[A]

Yeah. Like, I'm 56 today and I grew up in the 80s when evangelical Christianity basically merged with the Republican party. And honestly, religion and politics have probably been interwoven since the beginning of time. I actually view religion as the cart and power as the horse. In other words, powerful forces, money, greed, you know, they use religion as the way to influence and manipulate people.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

So, yeah, that's why. I think that's why Marx called religion the opiate of the masses. Right. It's just a way for the people in power to control the masses.

[B]

There does seem to be a lot of control with religion because of the emotional aspect. Right. They really tie into your emotions.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I love the bite model. Have you ever heard of Stephen Hasson and the bite model?

[B]

What is that?

[A]

So Stephen Hasson's one of the world's leaders in cults. You may enjoy having him on sometime. He wrote a book called combating cult mind control, and he came up with a really easy to remember acronym for understanding how cults work. It's bite B I, T, E, B is behavior. They basically religions and cults implement really strict behavioral standards like what you eat, who you have sex with, how you dress. And that's a way to condition you to be controlled. Then the second thing is information. Cults control the information that you're allowed to ingest, Both by telling you to stay away from certain books, from certain sources, by labeling all X members as apostates. In all those ways, they control the information that you consume. That's the I, the T is thoughts. Because if you can control what information people have and have access to, you can control what thoughts they have. And what you don't want as a cult is people thinking, learning things that then leads them to think that what they're in isn't true, isn't, you know, is a cult. Yeah, I like to say that no one who's in a cult thinks they're in a cult. True. And. And so by controlling the information I, you control the thoughts, which is T. And then the final thing is just emotional manipulation. That's the E. They use fear and also love bombing and promises of eternal life as a way to emotionally manipulate people into staying. You know, if you leave, you won't be happy, you'll be damned to hell. You'll, you know, you'll become a crack, you know, consuming sex worker if you leave. And it's that manipulation with fear that is the controlling emotion that most cults use.

[B]

So with the I part of that information, with the rise of social media, you think that would impact the amount of information they can control though, right?

[A]

Yeah. And with the Mormon Church specifically, the past 20 years has been a catastrophic phenomenon for Mormon church leadership because as soon as the Internet came onto the scene in the early 2000s, Mormon bloggers and Mormon podcasters began dominating the religious discussion airwaves. So believe it or not, this is the 20th year of Mormon Stories Podcast.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So In September of 2005, I released my first episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. And that early entry to podcasting led to several other Mormon and ex Mormon podcasters. And then that spilled over to Facebook, which spilled over into YouTube and spilled over into Instagram and TikTok and read it and what you'll find is, weirdly, ex Mormons lead the ex religious space by orders of magnitude. So take ex evangelicals, ex Jews, ex Jehovah's Witnesses, ex Scientologists, by volume, any statistical metric you want to implement. The ex Mormon subreddit has hundreds of thousands of members, and there's no other ex religious subreddit that even comes close because we just jumped on the Internet immediately. So the Mormon Church has experienced significant decline in the developed world, largely because of the Internet. And you know, the church is experiencing now, it's likely that within the developed world, the Mormon Church is either flat or in decline. And one of the questions we talked about maybe discussing is Mormon Church growth and health. And what the Mormon Church has had to do is it's experiencing so much decline in the developed world. It's dying in the uk, it's dying in Western Europe, it's dying in Japan, it's dying in the United States and in Canada. And the only way it's been able to offset those massive declines is by ramping up the missionary work in Africa.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

So this bizarre dark coincidence that for, for so long, the Mormon Church prohibited black people from being members of full standing and discouraged missionary work to black Africa all the way through the late 1970s, the church has had to do this pivot where it's already dying in developed, you know, the developed world, it's dying in Europe and in Asia. And so now it has Africa as this largely untapped fertile ground for missionary work. And so the church is opening up wards and stakes and missions in every possible black African country and turning up the missionary efforts and baptizing a gazillion number of super poor black people as a way to sort of pad the numbers to make it look like it's not in full free fall. It's kind of a shell game because the Mormon Church has like less than 10% activity rates, you know, retention rates in the developed world. But it doesn't.

[B]

Really low.

[A]

Yeah. But it doesn't want to look like a failing church. And so it's just going to ramp up its missionary activity in the developed being world to offset the decline in the developed world.

[B]

I can see that. Because in those places they don't have access to information.

[A]

Yeah, they have less access. And honestly, even if they did have access because they have mobile phones, but they're so poor, they are so desperate for education, for economic opportunity that they wouldn't care what Joseph Smith did in the 1830s or whether the Book of Mormon is actually a historical document. They're just like, can you teach me English? Can you get me a degree? Can you give me a community to help me build a better life?

[B]

Right.

[A]

So in some ways, Mormon missionary work in the developing world is, is impervious to the Internet.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

At least for now.

[B]

They also have a lot of money to play with, so that could probably keep them afloat for a bit.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know if people know this, but the Mormon Church is currently estimated to be worth over $300 billion. That's billion with a B. And you can go to the Widow's Mite website to learn more about that. But. And some say that's a gross underestimation of total Mormon Church assets. It's for sure, hands down the most wealthy church in the United States. Did you know that?

[B]

I didn't know it was the wealthiest. I knew they had a lot of money.

[A]

Most powerful, most wealthy. Over $3 billion.

[B]

Because the real estate they own is insane.

[A]

Oh. They're like in almost every state in the United States, the Mormon Church is either the number one or the number two landowner. Wow. My understanding is the Mormon Church owns something like 2% of the publicly available land in the state of Florida.

[B]

I thought it was just a Utah of Florida.

[A]

No, no, it's.

[B]

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[A]

But you know, check me if I'm wrong. Go to the Widow's Mite website which has done analysis on this. But in most US states, the Mormon Church is the number one or number two largest landowner in every US state. More than Jeff Bezos, more than Bill Gates. Their wealth pales in comparison.

[B]

There's no property tax. Right. When they buy a piece of property.

[A]

Yeah. It's a non profit. So I mean there are some taxes that they are forced to pay. Yeah. But overall they just grow tax tax free.

[B]

Well, I know that's a strategy in real estate because they can outbid people because of that. No property tax. That's a lot of money at those levels.

[A]

Yeah. And they've got this endless stream of tithing income because the Mormon Church requires its members to pay 10% of their annual income to the church. And just think about that annuity, that's the ultimate subscription model.

[B]

What is that process like? Like when they ask for that, like you wire them the money. How does that work?

[A]

No, normally you just, they have envelopes with a little slip inside that they put outside the Bishop's door in a Mormon meeting house. And you just take the envelope, you fill out the little paper and you put your check in each month. Wow. But what's powerful is the couple things the Mormon Church does to enforce its tithing. One is it has what's called tithing settlement at the end of every year where the bishop literally calls in, every family, sits, mom, dad and all the children down and says, are you a full tithe payer for this year? And the parents have to declare yes or no. So it's obviously embarrassing to say no right in front of your children and in front of the bishop. But what's even more disturbing is that entrance into a Mormon temple, not a chapel, but a temple, is dependent on being a full tithe payer. So just to put a fine point on it, if you're a dad, if you're an adult dad with an adult daughter who's about to get married, she's likely going to get married in a Mormon temple. But guess what if you're not a full tithe pair? You're not allowed to attend your own Mormon daughter's wedding in the temple.

[B]

Wow, that's crazy.

[A]

So that's the way that they enforce tithe paying is to tie the most important eternal ordinances in the church. The rituals, the ordinances, marriage, the endowment, that sort of thing. Baptisms for the dead. They tie that to tithe pain.

[B]

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[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

Like all the Mormon temples? Is there like one group that owns a bunch of them or are they all.

[A]

Oh, no, the church owns all the temples. It's just part of their corporate.

[B]

Oh, so it's not like you could just start your own.

[A]

No, no, the church, It's. It's like McDonald's. It's a very tightly controlled franchise.

[B]

Wow, I didn't know that.

[A]

But the church has built, has announced like over 300 temples worldwide. Like, you'll see you drive down the i15 corridor here in Salt Lake, you'll see Salt Lake, Ogden Layton, Bountiful. You know, Provo, there's a couple in Provo, there's Orem. You know, there's temples everywhere, but also in Africa and Europe and everywhere. And temples are, have become not only sort of the marketing showcase of how wealthy the Mormon church is in 2025, but also the primary tithing enforcement mechanism to get, to get members to pay up.

[B]

That is interesting because as a Christian, you could Just start your own church. You know, there's no boundaries, right?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, it's crazy because if you think about how wealthy the Mormon Church is today, it doesn't need tithing anymore. So it's great that the church receives something like, let's just say $10 billion a year in tithing. No, that's voluntary contributions from its members. That's not investments on its assets. Let's just say $10 billion if you take $300 billion and just assign a 7% annual return. Was that 21 billion? So like the church, as nice as it is to have the subscription model of 10/plus billion dollars a year coming in annually, it doesn't need that to still, you know, to still operate the church because just the interest on its existing assets far exceeds its expenses.

[B]

That's a valid point. Because if they're just doing it just for money, based off that reasoning, it does make sense.

[A]

Yeah. And I don't, I don't think the church leaders are doing it just for money, but I also think that L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, was right when he said if you want to get really wealthy, start a religion.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, the margins are insane. No taxes, you don't have to pay any tax on it.

[A]

It's a great model.

[B]

Yeah. And you don't have to report your financials.

[A]

No transparency, no taxes. Ultimate power and authority in people's lives, I'm sure.

[B]

Now members are kind of asking for transparency though, right?

[A]

No.

[B]

Oh, they're not? No, they're scared to ask.

[A]

Ex members are asking for transparency.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But you know, again, going back to the bite model, there's such belief and devotion in the church that you would once, if you're an orthodox, believing, dedicated member, you would never ask the church to do anything. The church tells you what to do and what to think. You would never ask the church to change. Wow.

[B]

No, that's nuts.

[A]

And then once you, once your mindset is starting to say, wait, the church needs to change, that's pretty much the beginning of the end of your commitment to the church. Because the church does not take feedback, does not want feedback, and it excommunicates people like me that try to give it faith feedback.

[B]

Have you seen any changes on there? And since guys like you started speaking out, any at all?

[A]

Oh, it changes a lot, but it always excommunicates the change maker. So as an example, the Mormon Church has this horrific multi century record of child abuse in the church. Like, I think it's safe to assume that child abuse per capita in the Mormon Church rivals the Catholic Church and maybe even exceeds the Catholic Church. Well, you know, for the longest time, Mormon Church leaders would call 8 year old children to come meet alone in the bishop's office to, you know, have the bishop ask them questions about whether they're worthy or not to get baptized. And then when they're 12, the Mormon Church implements these worthiness interviews where a 12 year old girl will sit alone behind a closed door with a middle aged man. And it is not unheard of for a Mormon bishop to be asking these 12 year old boys and girls if they masturbate. When they masturbate, if they're 14 or 16, did they have sex? Did they masturbate? Do they look at porn? What type of porn? If they had sex, how far did they go? Did they orgasm? Really shocking graphic sexual detail and this sort of almost child predation where you're grooming children to feel comfortable being asked explicit sexual questions by middle aged adults is the beginning of a slippery slope towards child abuse. Yeah. And you know, the, the boy, the Mormon Church had to quit the Boy Scouts of America because like over 80,000 Mormon Boy Scouts reported sexual abuse in Mormon Boy Scout troops.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

And you know, and there's just tens of thousands of reported instances of child sexual abuse in the church. And the reason I mention all this, your question was about change. A few years ago there was a man named Sam Young who's a former Mormon bishop who came on the scene and just said we need to protect the children. So he started an organization called Protect LDS Children. He had a couple marches in the downtown Salt Lake where everyone would say protect children from child abuse. And he basically said, you know, I have a very simple set of asks and a few of them are no more one on one interviews with children, you know, have parents always be in the room and stop asking sexually explicit questions to children. It's just grooming them for sexual abuse. And miraculously, the church did two things. They made a policy change allowing parents to accompany their children in those worthiness interviews with bishops, if the bishops allow it and if the parents want to, which probably seems like obvious that that should be allowed, but it was historic for the Mormon Church to make that change and to make it so quick in response to Sam Young's Protect LDS Children movement. But guess what happened to Sam Young?

[B]

He got excommunicated.

[A]

He was excommunicated. So that's the way the Mormon Church makes change. They punish and excommunicate the person calling for Change. And then they make the teeniest, tiniest change that they have to, to. To maintain viability.

[B]

Yeah. So they make you a martyr. They make you an example.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That makes people scared to, to speak out too, I bet.

[A]

For sure. And that's, you know, I'm viewed as an evil, wicked, terrible person or, you know, in this state. Right. Yeah. Because when they excommunicated me, they made me evil. And that's. That's how they deal with dissent.

[B]

I'm sure. Everywhere you go here, you get some looks.

[A]

Everywhere I go, I get looks. Mostly it's people coming up saying, thank you for what you do.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah. I have bishops and stake presidents, which is like higher level leaders in the church, current missionaries, high level leaders in the church, church employees, byu, Brigham Young University professors, all listening regularly to Moral Stories podcast now. So there is a large percentage of active believing Mormons now that listen to my show and that, like, still love the church or still want to be a part of it, but secretly listen to Mormon stories or watch Mormon stories on YouTube to kind of get a balanced perspective on how the church needs to change.

[B]

And that's the key with everything. Just a balanced perspective. Right. Some people are so locked in one perspective.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not trying to destroy the church. I think this may be a hot take, but I think religion overall is probably good for mankind and humankind. And actually, see, I actually am willing to say on the record that I think the Mormon Church does a lot of good and probably does more. My listeners. Viewers hate it when I say this. I actually believe the Mormon Church does more good than harm.

[B]

Yeah, his mic cut out. Oh, it did for a second. And so the last question, we didn't get, like, half of that. The last question, what did I ask? I don't remember Mormon.

[A]

So I've been going minutes without a working mic.

[B]

No, just the last question.

[A]

Oh, I think it was so the church.

[B]

Does the church do more good than bad? Was it that one?

[A]

You asked whether I'm recognized.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You get looks everywhere. You can start from there. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. Is there something I should do with my mic to have it not go out signals? Yeah.

[B]

Okay, I'll re. Ask that.

[A]

So you said it. You probably get recognized or get some dirty looks.

[B]

I'll say that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So being in Salt Lake, being in Utah, you probably get recognized everywhere you go.

[A]

I do. And on the one hand, it's. It's nice because it's an indication that we've had an influence and have helped people it is super annoying to my, my family when we're just trying to have a burger or go to a jazz game and somebody very graciously wants to come up and talk or say thank you. Overall, I'm really grateful for how kind people are. And I get almost no people coming up to me saying negative things, although I know that there are people who don't like what I do, obviously. But the other thing that's worth mentioning is that there are high level bishops, high level stake presidents in the Mormon Church, active Mormon missionaries, church employees at church headquarters, Brigham Young University professors who all listen regularly to Mormon stories because we try to be fair and balanced, and they want to learn the truth about the organization that they're a part of. So weirdly, number one, we're listened to by Mormons very seriously. Significantly. But also, my motive is not to destroy the Mormon Church. This is kind of a hot take, but I actually believe that religion probably does more good than harm for society. And my viewers and listeners hate it when I say this, but I'm willing to even say that I believe that Mormonism, the Mormon Church, may do more good than harm, even though it does a lot of harm sometimes. I actually believe the Mormon Church probably does more good than harm for society. And so my goal isn't to destroy it, it isn't to take it down. It's to provide people informed consent about what it is. And then maybe if the church can make some improvements along the way, then the people who are in it can just have a better experience.

[B]

There are brain studies on happiness levels with people that are atheists, people that are in religion, and it does seem the atheists have the worst results. I will say that.

[A]

Yeah. And if I can just turn on the remnants of my psychology PhD for a second. It is true that on average, people who report attending a religion or being a part of a religion have smaller levels of higher happiness. Higher happiness, but at a very small level. So it's not a significant level of large amounts of more happiness. It's just a little bit more happiness on average. And then the only other thing I'll say about that is they've been able to tease out the active ingredient in that smaller level of happiness, and it's community. So if atheists and agnostics want to be happier and healthier, you just got to figure out how to find community interesting. And community can take lots of forms, but that's the active ingredient.

[B]

Have you had a lot of atheists on the show?

[A]

I've had several, yeah. There's a weird dynamic in every other Christian tradition. When people leave Presbyterianism or Lutheranism or Methodism or whatever, they often just switch to a different church or they stop attending church, but they still believe in God or still believe in Jesus or still believe in the Bible. High demand religions like Mormonism do something really interesting. They devastate not just your belief in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, but in God and Jesus. So over half of all ex Mormons, according to studies that I've paid attention to, and anecdotally over half of all ex Mormons end up atheists and agnostic. So you really can't do a show interviewing ex Mormons without interviewing a lot of atheists and agnostics.

[B]

That is so fascinating. Do you think it's just so traumatic for them that they're just done with religion?

[A]

Yeah. So Mormonism is a totalistic religion. It's not just like something you do for 30 minutes or an hour on Sunday. It's your identity, it's your purpose, it's your meaning. It's your community. Your marriage is tied to it, your family is tied to it, your esteem, your inheritance, probably your occupation and your job and your customers. Your whole worldview is filtered, siphoned through Mormonism. And Mormonism just doesn't just claim to be a good church or a viable church. It claims to be the one and only true church on the face of the earth. All other churches are false and corrupt. Like, literally, if you get baptized in the Catholic Church or as a Methodist or a Lutheran in the Mormon Church, that doesn't count in heaven. If you get married Catholic or Muslim or Buddhist or Jew, it's Mormon doctrine that those marriages dissolve when you go to heaven. So only Mormon marriages, only Mormon baptisms, only Mormon faith counts in heaven. So if you all of a sudden lose your faith in Mormonism, then you've already been conditioned to believe that everything else is garbage. So Joseph Smith falls, the Book of Mormon falls, but then very quickly, the Bible falls and Jesus falls and God falls. Because it's all or nothing. Yeah, it's all or nothing.

[B]

It's a lifestyle. I mean, the previous guest I had on got, you know, kicked out of his house because he didn't like the Mormonism.

[A]

Yeah, and plenty of people get divorced if they lose their faith in the church. Their believing spouse will just divorce them. They'll be alienated, like, disowned by their parents. They'll lose their jobs. You know, the social fabric of Mormonism is littered with the ostracization of ex.

[B]

Mormons list goes on and on. That's why I'm surprised when you say overall it's a good thing.

[A]

Well, I guess this becomes a philosophical thing to talk about. But there is something worse than high demand religion, I think, and that's loneliness. Like, if you, if you want to look at an epidemic in society today, you could say religion's an epidemic. But you know what I think is really an epidemic? It's loneliness. And if you look at the way screen time and mobile devices and social media have isolated people to just live in their basements and play video games, and I'm just making up a stereotype, but like, to not date. I mean, teens are having less sex than ever. Teens and young adults are getting married on a lower rate than ever. People are isolating more than ever. People are disaffiliating not just from religion, but from social groups more than ever. And what are we seeing? Dramatic increase in depression, dramatic increase in anxiety disorders, and even dramatically higher suicide rates, especially with. With young men. Men.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, yeah, I like to say that capitalism is the absolute worst economic system, except for all the others. And religion is absolutely, let's just say, the worst dominant social structure, except for loneliness, which is actually worse, in my opinion.

[B]

I can actually buy into that argument, honestly, because at least religion provides you a sense of purpose.

[A]

No, it's not just that. Purpose, meaning morality, spirituality, community, friendships, resolution for death and the afterlife. Like it basically says, you want a happy, healthy life. Here is a big package. Follow these rules, show up on Sunday, do these things, marry, have kids, serve in the church, don't drink alcohol, don't do drugs, don't have sex outside of marriage. And this your recipe for happiness. And to be honest, there are a lot of healthy, happy Mormons and healthy, happy Mormon families. And there's a lot of dark stuff too, but there's a lot of health and happiness in religion. I haven't met a lot of religion.

[B]

Yeah, a lot of them seem to be in shape and healthy and successful. A lot of Mormon successful. Business, CEOs, entrepreneurs ton.

[A]

Politicians, CEOs, professional athletes, entertainers, artists, novelists. The list goes on. Musicians, Imagine dragons.

[B]

Oh, they're Mormon.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. I mean, Dan Reynolds and, you know, two of the four. The. The lead. The lead singer. Not just him. Brandon Flowers from the Killers. He's Mormon. Interesting. Tyler Glenn from Neon Trees was raised Mormon. David Archuleta, you know, was raised Mormon. Lindsay. There's just so many Mormon entertainers.

[B]

That is fascinating.

[A]

Brandon Sanderson, the fiction author He's Mormon. He's a. He's a world famous. Stephanie Meyer is the. The Vampire series with the. Anyway, there's just so many famous, wealthy. The Marriotts and, you know, the list goes on and on.

[B]

After you were excommunicated, did you still practice? Like, did you still want to keep learning about the religion, or did you kind of just go cold Turkish?

[A]

I stopped attending once I was excommunicated and just. Well, because they kicked me out and because my family wouldn't have wanted to go once I was a national story of being an apostate. Right. So, yeah, I stopped attending and I had lost my belief 20 years before my. Probably 25 years before my excommunication. I actually was working at Microsoft in Seattle and in the late 1990s and started learning for the first time about factual Mormon church history. And that's when I lost my faith right around 911 in 2001. And then I wasn't excommunicated until 2015. So I stayed in the church 14 years after, no longer believing it was true.

[B]

So you were still going, but you didn't believe in it?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, just like a secular Jew, right? There are plenty of Jews, believe it or not. There are plenty of practicing Jews that don't believe in a God or that don't believe that. That Moses ever existed. But they're just like, hey, it's my tribe, it's my culture, it's my heritage. It's a good way of life. It's my community. Plenty of Catholics that think the Pope's full of crap, that use birth control, that are pro, you know, pro choice politically. So most of the religious world has figured out that it's kind of a buffet. You can pick and choose what you want to practice and what you want to believe. And so I just said, hey, why can't Mormons have the same thing? So I did that for as long as I could get away with it.

[B]

And was part of you feeling some shame of leaving too? Some guilt maybe?

[A]

No, I literally, you know, the church was made for white straight men. Honestly, the Mormon Church was made by and for white straight men. So why wouldn't I love being a member of it? I loved going to church every Sunday. I loved the values. I loved the reinforcement for family. I loved a place to raise my kids, knowing members of my community and being able to connect with them and serve them and be served by them. So why would I leave? You know what I mean? Like, I wanted. I wanted my cake and eat it, too. I wanted the best of both worlds. I wanted a science, evidence, loving, realistic worldview. And I wanted my tribe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So why should I have to pick?

[B]

Do you miss that part of it?

[A]

I do. And again, my viewers and listeners hate it when I say that. I miss attending the parts of attending the Mormon Church. Not so much the teachings, but just the community, honestly. And the singing. I love singing. You know, Mormons are famous for their choirs, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir or the choir Temple Square, it's now called. I just love singing. So getting. Have you ever like sung in a big group of people?

[B]

I used to be part of the choir in high school.

[A]

How did that feel?

[B]

Felt amazing, right? Yeah. It's hard to explain. You're just so in the moment, you know, you feel great.

[A]

So I miss. I miss the singing. I miss the spirituality. I miss the community. Yeah, I do.

[B]

Well, thanks for admitting that, honestly, because I know a lot of people just always talk negatively about one side, but you can acknowledge the good and the bad.

[A]

I think that's the most credible way to operate. And it's true.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, John, what's next for you, man? Any fun interviews coming up? Any events you're doing?

[A]

So maybe the most fun thing we have, I guess HBO discovery. And I don't know if it's okay to mention this, but like September 1st, a documentary, a four part documentary drops on the Ruby Frankie Jody Hildebrandt saga. Did you hear anything about that? No.

[B]

What was that?

[A]

Basically there was a Mormon mom, I'll call Mommy influencer called Ruby Franke who had a YouTube channel called 8Passengers. And it was basically, you know, 10 or plus years ago, this Mormon family, all smiley, toothy, attractive, Utah people sharing on YouTube every day the follies of being a Mormon family. And they had millions of YouTube followers at one point, again, it was called eight passengers. And then it took this super dark turn where the mom started getting super strict with their children and eventually got canceled for doing things like forcing her son to sleep on a bean bag instead of in his bean bad and like cutting the head off of her child's dolls because the children wouldn't obey. And once they got canceled on YouTube, they partnered with a Mormon therapist named Jody Hildebrandt who was kind of appears, apparently was a closet lesbian who claimed to have the secret for curing masturbation and pornography use. And so Ruby sent her husband to Chad to this Mormon therapist. And long story short, the family takes a super dark turn where in the end Ruby and Chad are actually. It's Kevin. Kevin is the husband, Chad is the son. But Ruby and Kevin are separated. They end up divorced. And Jody and Ruby end up living together, raising Jody's children. Her. I'm getting this all wrong. Can we edit this? Long story short, the way it ends is that Ruby and Jody the therapist end up living together. Ruby and Kevin end up getting divorced, and Ruby and Jody moved to St. George, Utah to raise Ruby's remaining children. And the children end up being tortured. So they're like, kept in the basement, handcuffed, hogtied, abused in horrific ways where the only way that this is discovered is like one of the. One of the children stumbles out of the house while Ruby and Jody are gone and knocks on a neighbor's door and he has like lacerations and he's emaciated.

[B]

In the news. Yeah.

[A]

And he's got bloody, you know, wrists and ankles. And they find out that this couple has been torturing Ruby's children and they for sure would have ended up dead if it weren't for this child escaping and notifying the police. So it's. It's a. It's a four part series released on HBO Discovery. Going in depth on this. This whole story of Ruby, Frankie, Kevin, Frankie, eight passengers, and Jody Hildebrandt. And I'm a spokesperson. Nice. On the show.

[B]

I'll definitely check that out. We'll link it in the video too.

[A]

Yeah, that's kind of fun.

[B]

Sounds like a great watch. Well, thanks for on John.

[A]

It's dark.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's interesting. Yeah, well, it shows how religion, you know, again, I talk about the good of religion, but religion can also do significant harm. And this is the example of where religion goes wrong.

[B]

Oh, so that was tied to the.

[A]

Mormonism a thousand percent. This, this toxic therapist and Ruby had these beliefs that there's nothing worse than porn and masturbation and so. And that if you look at porn and they're masturbating, you've got demons possess possessing you. And so you've got to use exorcism to exorcise the demons. And you got to start punishing and torturing the kids to make them stop doing bad things.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And that's. So it's all Mormon. Mormon doctrine informed.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So that's why I'm involved in the series.

[B]

That is nuts. Okay, well, we'll link that below and your podcast. Thanks for coming on, man.

[A]

Thanks, Sean. Keep up the good work.

[B]

Thank you. Enjoy your birthday. Check them out, guys. See you next time. I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.