John Salley: “Stop Saying Vegan. Say Plant-Based.” | DSH #1764

Summary

Digital Social Hour with John Salley: “Stop Saying Vegan. Say Plant-Based.” | DSH #1764

Podcast: Digital Social Hour
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: John Salley
Date: January 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features NBA champion, entrepreneur, and wellness advocate John Salley returning to the show for a candid and wide-ranging conversation. From plant-based living and the changing meaning of "vegan," to NBA culture, longevity, and authenticity, Salley serves up blunt life lessons, industry stories, and spirited perspectives on health, legacy, and personal growth.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Wellness, Longevity & Lifestyle Choices

• Plant-Based Living vs. Veganism

  • Salley emphasizes a pivot from the word “vegan” to “plant-based,” focusing on whole fruits and vegetables, not processed alternatives.
  • "Stop saying vegan. Say plant-based. When I say plant-based, I literally mean that—like as many plants. Vegetables in the afternoon, fruit in the daytime. Still no animal product." (05:34)

• Diet & Health Habits

  • Describes daily routines such as drinking a liter of water with sea salt and baking soda, papaya seeds, and large amounts of fruit.
  • Notes he's lighter now, at age 61, than he was in his playing days, attributing it to consistent dietary habits.
  • "I'm gonna be 61 this year, and I'm five pounds lighter than I was in 1989." (11:29)

• On Fats and Oils

  • Debunks myths about animal fats being healthy for everyone, notes different populations have unique dietary needs.
  • “I had to realize certain people are built different… If you’re from the caves in Europe and you had to kill an animal and eat the animal, that's how they survive. It's a different way.” (01:10, 12:57)

• Scams in the Health Industry

  • Warns of both “vegan scams” and general processed food dangers:
    • “Processed food is not good for anybody.” (10:39)
    • Acknowledges commercial plant-based products like Beyond Meat have a place, but shouldn't be mainstream diet staples.

• Entrepreneurial Ventures

  • Talks about his company Better Life (wellness products and herbal cleanses) and his focus on “Wellness Wednesdays” (04:02, 04:19).
  • Recently opened a hydration spa—Alpha Hydration—in California (04:22).

2. Media, Culture, and Authenticity

• Podcasting & Media Projects

  • Reflects on being an early podcaster in 2012 and his plans to return (01:31).
  • Describes new TV projects, including "Sports Gone Wrong" (Vice) and a BET reality show “Ball of Cribs” about Black realtors and celebrity homes (02:30-03:43).

• Staying Genuine

  • On not seeking extra fame:
    • “I’m famous enough, baby. I do not want to be over famous.” (04:50)

• Survivorship & Motivation

  • Shares his desire to live past 100—to age like his uncle who was “still moving” and “still funny” at 92 (08:36–09:18).
  • On motivation from doubters and using anger as fuel:
    • “If you don’t have a hater… you’re not doing it well.” (31:57–32:23)
    • Name-drops childhood rival Kevin Wright as an example of positive antagonism (32:23).

• Books & Self-Awareness

  • Highlights importance of reading, sharing how coaches like Phil Jackson and Chuck Daly influenced him with book gifts and life advice (38:41–40:44).
  • Will Smith’s gifted book "Awareness" taught him to “live in your complete truth.” (40:19–41:15)
    • "If people don’t like you, they got the problem." (41:15)

3. Basketball – Then & Now

• NBA Culture and Player Welfare

  • Observes that player longevity is largely about self-care, not just “load management.”
  • “You feed it what it needs to and you get it. You're a thoroughbred in the NBA, so they should treat you like one.” (36:58)
  • Reflects on the “chip on the shoulder” culture and using anger wisely:
    • “I played with anger. And then at the end of the game, I was able to become a civilian again. The switch back is really hard to do.” (33:28–34:05)
  • Contrasts fighting culture and pride from earlier eras with today’s NBA focus on business and avoiding risk (35:01–35:42).

• European and Young Talent

  • On rising European presence:
    • “When you play like you have something to gain as opposed to, you've already gotten it, you're gonna play better.” (27:23)
  • Discusses the NIL (Name, Image, Likeness) revolution in college sports and the contrast to his generation not being paid (24:49–26:10).

• Playoffs, Team Loyalty, and Referees

  • Shares NBA insights—rooting for players over teams, and working as a wellness coach to athletes.
  • Touches on complexities of managing superstars and salary caps in the league (18:20–19:40).
  • Critiques modern “technical fouls” and the influence of the NBA’s Chinese broadcast market in maintaining image (20:30–21:01).
  • On AI referees and arena technology:
    • “When there's a call, four different camera angles come up on the screen… And they're showing it and they have such great control…” (22:35)

• Legacy & Giving Back

  • Discusses staying grounded—refusing to flaunt wealth in his old neighborhood, instead living humbly (28:08–29:44).
  • Stresses supporting youth and giving “books and knowledge” as a mentor.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• "Do you want an animal to die so you can like the taste of ketchup, or can I give you the same effect in chemicals?” (00:00, repeated at 12:57, John Salley)
• "Stop saying vegan. Say plant-based.” (05:34, John Salley)
• “Processed food is not good for anybody.” (10:39, John Salley)
• “I want to be 40 years younger than my age. I want to be in my 90s feeling like I’m in my 60s.” (09:18, John Salley)
• On criticism: “If you don’t have a hater, you’re not doing it well.” (31:57)
• On living authentically: “Live in your complete truth. And if people don’t like you, they got the problem.” (41:15)
• On coaching styles:
  • “My favorite coach is Chuck Daly… He would have a conversation with me, and he goes, you get it? If you don’t, I gotta get rid of you. I love that.” (39:20)
  • “Phil [Jackson] was the opposite… Philosophical. There was always a hidden message… He gave us books, and I’d always wonder what message he was sending.”
• On sustaining NBA careers:
  • “You don’t have to have load management. You just have to take care of your body… If you give up your minutes, you’re going to be giving up your minutes.” (36:58)
• On adversity and growth:
  • “You don’t have to flaunt, you shouldn’t stunt… Living well is the best revenge.” (29:44, 29:58)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00 – On diet, animal products, and plant-based choices
• 02:30 – New shows: “Sports Gone Wrong” & “Ball of Cribs”
• 04:02–04:19 – Better Life products and “Wellness Wednesdays”
• 05:30–05:34 – Plant-based vs. vegan philosophy
• 11:29 – Weight, aging, and maintaining fitness into his 60s
• 12:57 – Reflection on ethical food choices and dietary ancestry
• 18:12–20:22 – NBA playoffs, team-building, and player movement
• 20:30–21:01 – NBA technical fouls, referees, and Chinese markets
• 22:35 – In-arena technology and the move toward AI officiating
• 24:47–26:10 – NIL, college athlete pay, European youth in pro sports
• 27:23 – European takeover in the NBA
• 28:08–29:44 – Staying grounded, stories from Salley’s neighborhood
• 31:57–32:23 – Using doubters for motivation, naming Kevin Wright
• 33:24–35:42 – Playing with anger, NBA fights, changing culture
• 36:58–37:02 – Longevity, load management, and self-care in the NBA
• 38:41–40:44 – Coaching, books, and self-awareness lessons
• 41:18 – Where to find John Salley and his products

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Closing Thoughts

John Salley delivers an episode bursting with unfiltered wisdom, humor, and conviction. From championing authentic wellness (“Plant-based, not vegan”), critiquing the modern NBA, and recounting stories both humbling and hilarious, Salley continues to use his platform to educate, inspire, and challenge us—always with an eye towards what’s real, what’s healthy, and what truly matters.

Transcript

[A]

Do you want an animal to die so you can like the taste of ketchup, or can I give you the same effect in chemicals? And they were like, well, the chemicals are as bad as the dead. It's not. An animal had to pass for that. It had to be ripped up. Your body doesn't accept those oils. Well, those animal fats are not really good for you in your body. It depends, too. I had to realize that. I had to realize certain people are built different, like Eskimos. Their diet are fish. If you're from the caves in Europe and you had to kill an animal and eat the animal, that's how they survive. It's a different way. And different people. That's why I said they are different.

[B]

All right, guys, Got him back. It's been two years, man. What you been up to?

[A]

Two years. I know, man. Everybody comes on after it's. You've been wonderful.

[B]

Yeah. I appreciate you coming on early in my journey. I really do.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I think you were one of the first hundred.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm not 1500 now. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then I got. That's a lot. Yeah.

[B]

I've been.

[A]

I got to do Billy. Billy Carson. Oh, I love that.

[B]

How's that one?

[A]

I flew down to the wonderful palace. I've always been a fan of his, so, you know, through. Through your. Through our connection, it was easier to talk to him. So, you know, eventually, my podcast is coming. Eventually I'm bringing it back. I don't know if you knew that. That I did a podcast with Kevin Henchman.

[B]

I didn't know that.

[A]

It was called Spider and the Henchman 2012, produced by my boy, Kevin Parker.

[B]

Damn. So you were early 2012.

[A]

Yeah. And I always say, if I would have continued. Oh, my God.

[B]

You would have been broken. You would have been.

[A]

But we were on the Adam Carolla Network, and we didn't really realize what it was, but now I realize what it is.

[B]

Yeah. And you got stories for days. You got connections.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You got what it takes to make it in podcasting.

[A]

That's a lot of work in, too. Right. So I'm putting it together really well.

[B]

Love it. You still acting? Doing any media stuff?

[A]

Yeah, well, I went to Martin Lawrence's 60th birthday, and if you see bad boys, I don't want to spoil alert, but Fletcher got shot. It hurt Rip, so you never know. But, yeah, I got a bunch of things. I got Vice Network, we got a show called Sports Gone Wrong coming out.

[B]

Sports Gone Wrong in June.

[A]

And then one of my favorite Things is my partners Shawn, Jarella, Avery, and. And we did it with JJ Productions with Jeff Jenkins, who is, like, I guess the best at this reality show. We're doing a show called Ball of Cribs that's coming on bet, God willing, in August.

[B]

Is it like MTV Cribs?

[A]

It's like it. But this kid, Rob Watson, is a realtor. He's blessed to be black, and he is literally selling multimillion dollar houses to athletes, celebrities. And I just thought it'd be a great show. Someone chandrella was over at JJ's office, and I said, you know, they brought me over. You got any ideas? I said, I want some black folks on the wall. JJ was like, hey, man, we're working at it. He has a great show on Hulu called Mormon Wives and he had Bling Empire.

[B]

Oh, that's a good one.

[A]

Early start with the Kardashians. So he is definitely the person to bring your product to fruition. Nice.

[B]

That's dope.

[A]

Yeah. And that's it. So I. And I bought you some more Better life, bro.

[B]

Do you sell these online yet? Where do I put them?

[A]

Oh, yeah, man. You go shop. Better life B e T T. A game changer.

[B]

Guys need a good cleanse. This will get you feeling right. Yeah.

[A]

So that's my number one seller. But now we're selling all the herbs, 30 different herbs. So I just decided to start going live on Wednesdays, and I'm just. Wellness Wednesdays.

[B]

I love it, man.

[A]

I got a spot out here too, man.

[B]

A retail store?

[A]

No, I got a spa now. Well, I'm gonna call it a spa. It's called alpha hydration. I'm in business with. With my guy. So all the different modalities that I talk about, we're moving into. And since I'd done your show, I was like, you know, I need to focus on helping people get healthy. So that's been my focus. My daughter was like, you need a social media manager. I said, I'm famous enough, baby. I do not want to be over famous.

[B]

You do well at staying healthy, man, because a lot of athletes retire. They look way worse. Yeah.

[A]

And when I tell you that was one of the shows I pitched, and I don't think they thought it was, you know, like, going to get any traction. And I say it all the time. I said, man, you'd be surprised when people sit around and they say, how do I better myself? That's why I came up with better B e t T A better eating today, tomorrow, always. It was the mentality of how can I get better? How could I not better? You know, I'm black, so we have to ebonic it a little bit.

[B]

Still vegan, man.

[A]

I'm still vegan.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You know, my wording is changing, Sean. It's now becoming more. When I say plant based, I literally mean that like as many plants. Vegetables in the afternoon, fruit in the daytime. Still no animal product. Somebody is trying to tell me about beef talon.

[B]

Oh, the lotion, right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For your skin.

[A]

Yeah. Or you can just keep eating well and your skin will do well. Yeah, that's what I tell them.

[B]

Well, a lot of lotion companies are scams.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you think about it.

[A]

Yeah. Cuz it's on the outside. Yeah.

[B]

It's not fixing anything.

[A]

No, no. It's not even moisturizing. It just looks moisturized. The best moisture is sitting in humidity.

[B]

I had terrible acne growing up and no one told me it was diet related. Everyone tried giving me lotion and creams and like Accutane.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it was diet.

[A]

Yeah. Because it was coming from the inside out.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Yeah. So they didn't want to, they didn't want to tell you. Oh yeah, it should get. That's. And this is the crazy thing. When I was getting into this lifestyle, I was 27 years old. It was about your age and I was 27 years old. And the lady told me I was full of crap. And I didn't understand what she meant. And she goes, literally, you're full of crap. And I got my first colonic. I always talk about it and I run into so many different people say, man, you don't need to do that. Nothing needs to be emptying your body, bro. Let me tell you. And Dr. Jewel Pukram and after her, that has been. My idea is to be as good as a doctor or practitioner because I'm not a doctor. Let's go over that. I'm not a doctor, I'm a certified health coach. But. And I don't tell people what to do. I tell people what I do. And if you want to try it, this is where I go. This is how, how I do it.

[B]

I'm not taking no medical advice.

[A]

Nah, man. Yeah.

[B]

You don't want to get in trouble. You got a clonic at 27. That is young.

[A]

That is young. Everybody's just telling me, just eat prune juice, take an enema and some of those are good. Prune juice is cool. Eating prunes is better. They say, what about olive oil? I eat olives and they Said, well, I said, I constantly. And putting it in my body so my body can process it. So mainly that's what I'm doing. And then I just started thinking, how could I get to the public? So I start. I have this idea about making shows. And then I keep thinking, well, maybe I want to go to Costa Rica where the fruit is just unbelievable. But then pod, it'd be tough on podcast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm doing as much as I can do here in this wonderful. And then, you know, I'm in California.

[B]

So it's hard to beat the weather here.

[A]

Beat the weather. And we still have fruit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not all of it great. A lot of it is great. Yeah. I just, you know, it's a trip. I got to a certain age, and I said, okay, I want to live another 60 years. Damn. Yeah, I know.

[B]

So you want to hit a hundo, then?

[A]

Yeah, I want to hit. I want to hit a little bit beyond what I want. I just want to see what it's like. My uncle lived in 92, and it was still. He was still funny, and he was still moving. But I want to do a hundred as if I'm 60. So when I get to, like, in my 90s, I want to be as, like, in my 60s. So I want to be 40 years younger than.

[B]

I love it. It's possible guys like Brian Johnson are proving it right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're reversing aging.

[A]

Yeah. When I. What it was. I saw Brecker, the first time I ever saw him was, I think, on your show.

[B]

Oh, Gary Brca. Yeah. Wow.

[A]

I think.

[B]

I think he's been blowing up now. Just went on Logan again.

[A]

Yeah, I think. Did I see him on your show?

[B]

He came on mine. He's been on a few.

[A]

Yeah. When. When. When I started following what he was doing, it was making sense to me. I said, this is what I want to do. I want to help people understand how cells work. Brother Haki. Also, I talked to from my boy Willie D from the. From the ghetto boys, put me on with him. And then when I started putting my herbs together, I started realizing, oh, this is the formula I got from this guy. This is a formula I got from him. So I took all the different formulas. When I've been doing this now almost 33 years. Damn. So in 33 years, I've run across some of the biggest scams and some of the biggest fines, but I've run across a lot of scams.

[B]

There's a lot of vegan scams, like the food's not good for you.

[A]

Processed food is not good for anybody. Right. But so this is the trip when we talk about. That's why I said plant based. If you ask me and you ask me and somebody would say, what do you do? I'm going to tell you. Oh, in the morning I drink about a liter of water with sea salt in it and baking soda. And then as it goes on, I'll eat papaya seeds. By 12 o' clock I'll have, if it's seasoned watermelon, I'll have certain apples. I just from like 11 to 2, I'm bombarding myself with fruit and I'm gonna be 61 this year and I'm five pounds lighter than I was in 1989 when I was playing in sepias.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So I know how to keep my weight at a point. I know how to keep the system moving.

[B]

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[A]

No, they don't. They die in usually around they. A lot of them don't make it a 60 at 70. Damn. Yeah.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

I know Kareem is still hanging in there, but a lot of guys don't make it. So that's why I smile all the time. That's why I make sure I pay attention to what I eat, what it's going to do to affect me. And then you got when People talk about, like you said, a lot of scams and veganism. You have choices, right? Do you want an animal to die so you can like the taste of ketchup? Or can I give you the same effect in chemicals? And they were like, well, the chemicals are as bad as the dead. It's not. An animal had to pass for that. It had to be ripped up. Your body doesn't accept those oils. Well, those animal fats are not really good for you in your body. It depends too. I had to realize that. I had to realize certain people are built different, like Eskimos. Their diet are fish. If you're from the caves in Europe and you had to kill an animal and eat the animal, that's how they survived. It's a different way and different people. That's why I said they are different. But some things I don't participate, partake, participate in veganism. I was at the natural food expo. So much stuff is coming out. Health is going to be what, $32 trillion business. So, yeah, you're going to run into the scammers. But if you eat at my house, you're going to be like, huh, that was good. Every once in a while there might be some Beyond Meat product there. Shout out to Beyond Meat. But not all the time.

[B]

Yeah, that's not a daily thing. I agree with you on the spiritual component. For meat, it's got to be ethically sourced.

[A]

Well, I get caught in that too. You mean if you raise it yourself and then you cut a stone, that's.

[B]

One route or pasture raised or just like not vaccinated, not like injected with hormones and all this crazy stuff these days, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Well, somebody says, well, man, what about fish? I had this one lady on bench, she goes, what about fish? I go, where'd you get it? And she goes, oh, it's wild salmon. I said, from where? And she's from Alaska. I said, we're in Atlanta. You think they caught that one fish and bought that all the way to Atlanta? You are tripping. I said, no, that's farmed. And then they were like, no, no, I got fresh. When I was in the Caribbean, I got fresh and I go out of the ocean. He goes, yeah. I said, where? They blow up atomic bombs. So it's. You just going to run into. You gotta make the best of what you can do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I'm a proud member of PETA, so I'm always gonna tell you, no animal peace starts on your plate.

[B]

I'm with you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You following the NBA playoffs Right now.

[A]

I met Jimmy Butler. Let me tell you why that's important. I played for the Miami Heat. I was number 22, Jimmy Butler was number 22 and the Miami Heat. So I'm more of a fan of players. And then I went to two Clipper games because my ex teammates, Ty Lue and Brian Shaw, are the head coach and assistant head coach. So I got to watch those games and pay attention. And I want to work with AD on healing his body. So I got to go and talk to those guys now. From everything I saw with the playing, I got to see, you know, Edward, I got to see the way it's going about. I think it's a little bit more confusing. I used to like when it was these top eight teams get to play and these top eight teams get to play. Everybody else go fishing. So now the play in tournament is just. It's more intense. It gives more people more time because, you know, anything can happen in the springtime. In the springtime is when I played better. In the springtime, I was on a team with a whole team with four of us. One, two, three of us were Tauruses. Isaiah Thomas, Dennis Rodman, myself. Four of us. Bill Laimbeer, I think, and Dennis Rodman, Isaiah, John Sally and Bill Lambert. And then there was a Gemini named Joe Dumars. So it was just like always around your birthday, you play better. I'm not getting into the astrology of it, but you play better. Things just happen better around your birthday. And I was on a team that had that mentality. So when I see guys in the springtime play better than they did in the fall, it's gonna be exciting, man.

[B]

Jimmy turns up in the playoffs.

[A]

Yeah, Jimmy's a beast anyway.

[B]

And Pat's had a few of those over the years. You know, star players leaving.

[A]

Yeah, it's a hard job. No, right. What I mean by that, with Pat Riley, it's a hard job because when a guy becomes a superstar, he then requires a lot of money. And as the president, you gotta figure out how to keep your salaries at this point and keep the team going. So it's a hard move, like the Luka move, Right. I feel sorry for old boy when they're yelling, you know, fire Nick. Fire Nick. But everyone's thinking it's the biggest move in NBA history. Kareem Abdul Jabbar won a championship in Milwaukee and was traded to the Lakers. Shaquille lost in the championship to Houston and was traded to the Lakers. Wilt Chamberlain won a championship in Philadelphia and was Traded to the Lakers. People forget it's a league. And it's how we keep the league going, by making top teams, especially teams with that much visibility, competitive every year. So it was a move the NBA needed to have Luka playing for the. For the Lakers.

[B]

Good for business, right?

[A]

Hey, it's all business.

[B]

He's the number one selling jersey this year.

[A]

Yeah, well, he. First it was Bronny, and I went, I want a Bronnie Jersey. I want LeBron Jr. Jersey. I really do, because I know the worth of jerseys. But I won a Luka jersey and he lost weight and he, you know, this might be the spot for him.

[B]

He's looking good right now. We'll see how. How much of a run they can make this playoff season.

[A]

We better get it. We better get it in LA. What? The Celtics have 18 championships.

[B]

Yeah. They got one more than the Lakers now, right?

[A]

Gotta win in Laker land, brother.

[B]

Yeah. Gotta make it happen. You think they're handing out too many techs these days? Chae Young got a pretty wild one passing the ball to the ref the other night.

[A]

Yeah, I said this before. A lot of guys don't realize this game plays in China. Our largest market for the NBA is China.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

You got to stop showing insubordination or they won't show our games in China. So. And we know the referee suck, everyone. That was my biggest thing, Sean. I've always said it. We all know referees suck since beginning of refereeing. You know, it sucks.

[B]

You think at the pro level they'd be decent, right?

[A]

Decently, no. But you know that they're human with an edge. And I'm from believing the referees cheat us anyway because I was the Detroit Pistons, so I'm always going to believe that. But no, some of it. I love the refs. I like these guys. I see a couple of them. I used to, like, be really friendly with a lot of them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But some guys just, you know, they may have bad nights, too. You got guys with bad nights, right? You got guys playing bad nights, you're gonna have referee with bad nights.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Got it. It's part of the game.

[B]

I wonder if AI will ref the.

[A]

Games in the future, then it's not gonna be so. If I thought about it, when I went to the Clifford game, shout out to the CEO Gilliam, she was amazing. Took care of my daughter. And I, I went with my boy, Tony Pritzker, and Steve Ballmer walked all the way over to me and I was blown away. A billionaire walked over to talk to me. And I was like, wow, give me a job talking to your guys. And when there's a call at the Self, at the Intuit. Yeah, when there's a call, four different camera angles of that call come up on the screen. Damn. Whether. And, and it's. And they're showing it. And they're showing it and they have such great control that they don't want you berating the referee. And I said to her, I said, that's part of the game. And she says, no, this, it doesn't help our home court. This is a. Referees love to ref here because one, they got the cameras. If they got it wrong, we don't make them feel bad. They can see if they got it wrong and reverse it. And two, they don't need to sit around and have some fan in his ear. And I was like, oh, that's pretty smart. That's as close to AI as I was. I want to get to. Because if it goes any further, you won't be able to do anything because.

[B]

People will find ways around it, right?

[A]

No, it's just if AI is going to be smarter.

[B]

Do you know about Cooper Flagg?

[A]

I love Cooper Flagg and I went to Georgia Tech.

[B]

Okay. So I want to ask you this, son. Do you think he should stay another year, Duke, collect the Nil money, or do you think he should go to the draft this year because he's debating on what he wants to do?

[A]

I would go directly into the draft this year. There's no time better than the present period. Because you saw he twisted his ankle in the beginning of the season, halfway through the season, and he healed back really well. If that happens again and then it doesn't, all of a sudden there's a problem in that ankle. He would have been known as a great college player. He's a great college player. He proved it. He proved he's at a pro game, pro level. It's not always about the money. It's always about the money, Sean. It's not always about the money. But if it's about the money, go pro.

[B]

Well, that's the argument right there. Because I think with nil, he's making millions right now, So I think, I don't know how much first year contracts are getting in the NBA right now, but.

[A]

Well, he said negotiate a two year deal in the NBA and then he'll have a better deal. Well, I think you got to do a four year deal, the first one coming out. But. It's a different feel if he goes back to college and he doesn't win. You know, they ran into an unbelievable Houston team.

[B]

That was a good and experienced team.

[A]

Yeah, we ran into an unbelievable Houston team. And. But when somebody said to me, okay, who do you think is going to win? I said, florida. And they were like, how'd you just say that? And then when Florida wound up winning, I said, man, it's an edge. It's always, hang around, hang around, hang around. And then somebody who can take it to this next level. Hang around, hang around, next level. And you get better every game. Sitting around and worrying about the last time. No, what I wonder is, what I love is, I was in a lawsuit against the NCAA with Sonny Vaccaro, and the first lawsuit that says we should be making money, I didn't get anything. My name was down there. Now kids are making millions of dollars to do what I was doing for them. A handshake under the table that never came about. And I loved it. I'm glad they didn't, but, man, I wish they would have gave me something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, that would have been nice.

[B]

So you didn't settle or what was the conclusion of that lawsuit?

[A]

I don't know. It was the o' Bannon lawsuit. So it was the first lawsuit that Sonny Vaccaro and Ed o' Bannon from UCLA was talking about. Hey, you guys are selling our jerseys with my name on it.

[B]

Boom, boom, boom.

[A]

And we're not making any money. That's not fair. So that's the way to find out. Oh, that's the first push saying that athletes should get paid in college. Damn. I think it's cool. I think it's a smart way to go. I think if you can give a kid millions of dollars. Plus, they've been doing this in Europe. So Tony Parker and Luca have been playing pro basketball since they were 15. Right. It's just in Europe, it's just looked at different. Bjorn Borg was a great guy, and he's a great tennis player. 15 years old, 16 years old, winning Wilmington. However old he was making money, it's only here in America do they want to put a cap or put a certain thing in a capitalistic country, which makes no sense when everything's about capital. I like the nil. I like that these players, at this point, I don't know how they quantify what they should get paid. Still, some people may be getting paid more than they're worth.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. You think these Europeans are going to continue to take over the NBA?

[A]

Unbelievable. No, I saw when they. Somebody did white American basketball players in The NBA and European. And, you know, I didn't know if it was racist or not, but it was funny. When you play like you have something to gain as opposed to, you've already gotten it, you're gonna play better. So when I got into the pros, Shawn, I was doing John Salley Day in my neighborhood. And I just won the championship, I think, that year. And we were doing, like, the block party. And I was staying in Manhattan at. At the Plaza in Manhattan. And everyone's like, oh, the Plaza? Well, that's where we stay in the NBA. So I use my same discount to get the room. And I had. Back then, we had road, we had limousines. I had the limousine come, and then I realized this was not the look I wanted in my project. So I had the limousine drop me off, and then I saw the bus. I got on the bus and told the limousine to meet me at, where to meet me at the end or go around to my mother's building. And then people were, like, waiting for everything. And when I got off the bus, they were like, you got off the bus, Johnny? I was like, yeah. How do you think I was gonna get here? Because I knew it wasn't a look that you wanted. Like, I really never thought that was cool too, to drive your car through the hood. Like, look at me. Yeah, I'm still hood, but look at. And I'm not from the hood. I'm from a project. But it was, you know, Italian Jewish neighborhood when I was growing up. Brooklyn is tough, though. But it wasn't as tough as it is now. From where I'm from, shout out to Canarsie, better known as Flossy Pop Smoke. As soon as I hear that. And they were like, yo, he from your project? I was like, really? So I wish I would have gotten to meet him before his demise.

[B]

Oh, that was Pop Smoke.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And. But I was. I was. That mentality, when you get there, you don't. You shouldn't. You shouldn't flaunt, you shouldn't, you shouldn't stunt, you shouldn't do any of that.

[B]

That's where you see people get in trouble when they start doing that.

[A]

Yeah. For what? And that's the whole deal. A lot of people do things just to show off. Yeah, I didn't need to show off.

[B]

I think it's like a trauma response because they grew up and they want to prove everyone Wrong thing.

[A]

Yeah. Living well is the best revenge.

[B]

That's the best success.

[A]

Yeah. Best acting like you don't remember what they said facts. Yeah. Like, oh, you say something. I'm not paying attention to you now, nor then. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, you want to throw it back in the face.

[B]

Did you have a lot of doubters growing up?

[A]

Yeah, I have one doubter who? I couldn't wait. You hear me? Like, when I tell you I couldn't wait. And he used to talk so much smack. But he can play. He has no idea he made me better. Damn right. So because she used to talk so much smack, I got better. I was like, I'm gonna prove it. I'm gonna prove it. I'm prove it. And people didn't know what my chip on my shoulder was about. And it was him. And I never say his name because I don't want him. Did he make the lead publicity? No. Oh, okay. He didn't even play in college.

[B]

Yeah, no one would know it anyways.

[A]

No one would know him. But he made me better. So they put the team. We got a brand new franchise team, and now, you know, we're the Pistons. We're champions, and it's a new team. So when they go in town, you know, I make sure he hangs out with us, and we go to eat dinner, and he goes, well, this is all the Pistons. Oh, yeah. Order what you want. Anything you want. I got this. I'm taking you to dinner. Oh, bet. Let me get a surf and turf. And I want this. And can I have my steak this way? And what kind of lobster? And we got to the whole thing. And he was like, yo, this is amazing. Yo, I just met Isaiah Thomas. Good looking outside. I was eating. Oh, it's good. I said, pretty good for somebody with no potential, huh? He was like, well, you know, I was just saying that to get you motivated. I was like, yeah, I just. Just wanted you to know I heard you. But as opposed to being angry, I realized if. If you don't have a hater, you're not Cap. Williams said, right, you're not doing it well, if you don't have a hater, if you don't have somebody pushing you. Nothing to push. That's so I. I really appreciate him. And I'm gonna give you a shout out. His name is Kevin Wright. Hey, I appreciate you, Kevin Wright.

[B]

Finally. Name dropped him. Let's go. Did you play with a lot of anger back in your early days?

[A]

I still play with anger, yeah. Yeah.

[B]

You don't seem like it.

[A]

I know, but I had some really good. A really good therapy. And I was angry because, you know, I was angry because of deaths around me. A lot of my boys got murdered by the time we were 25, 26. Damn. That part is still messed up. But that was my anger. And Coach Crimmins used to make me angry down at Georgia Tech. He didn't pay attention to a lot of things, but Coach Crimmins was my biggest motivator, too. So I think that's another reason I picked to go to Georgia Tech. That Coach Crimmins was my motivator, my antagonizer, my doubter. But he loved me and he took care of me, so. But, yeah, I had. I played with anger. That's interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Some people can use anger as a tool, and then some people, they let the anger overtake them.

[A]

No. Right. So. But that was a deal, too. A lot of guys, I play with anger. And then at the end of the game, I was able to become a civilian again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is really hard to do. The switch back is really hard to do. I was with a man, Charles Soweto. Charles Smith. Used to play for the Knicks. Used to play for the Clippers. Good dude. And he knew. And I would go at him, and he was a great player, but he knew I was just playing hard. He knew I wasn't trying to hurt anybody at anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I definitely play with a chip on my shoulder. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Back in the day, people couldn't separate the two. Some people.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And back in the day, when you got into a fight, you know, and you did all that, the referee, hey, hey, go sit. Get a sub for him. Go air him out. Once you calm down, you get up and you play.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then at the end of the game, you look at the guy, you give him a pound.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just twist it on.

[A]

It's kind of loose this way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was it. That was it. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Continuity. All right. You would just, you know, some guys forget, too. That's that good weed. You forget, man. You know, it's better than drinking alcohol.

[B]

Yeah. You don't see as many fights these days. I think part of it is the players are making so much money.

[A]

Right. Yeah. Nobody wants. Why would you have a fight with somebody That's a Fortune 500 company? Literally, they're almost a Fortune 500 company. So they're not paying you to throw punches that they paying you to throw the ball in the basket. Yeah.

[B]

You lose money when you throw a punch.

[A]

Yeah. And you lose time on court. You lose respect. You lose a lot now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. My daughter went to a hockey game. She went to another One. I go, watch. She goes, they're allowed to fight. And I go, really? She goes, yeah, they're allowed to fight. I like that. I was like, oh, okay. Calm it down, lady.

[B]

Well, back in your day, you guys were fighting every five, ten games.

[A]

Yeah, man. You know when guys were tired, when it was a back to back, when you on a three game losing streak, somebody's gonna fight. And that's because you cared so much. Now, guys, you know, I don't care. That was never attitude. You played with pride. Yeah, I said something, Sean. I was like, yeah, I don't understand load management. Right. The guy said, well, you old heads don't realize this, this, this, this. And that's why they didn't have long careers. That's why LeBron has a such a long career. And I go, kareem played as long as LeBron. And they were like, oh. I was like. And Udonis played as long. He paid 20 year. Jason Kidd played 19 years. Like they. But they wanted to play. You don't give up your minutes because if you give up your minutes, you're going to be giving up your minutes and that mentality. That's why I said, you don't have to have load management. You just have to take care of your body. And it won't be a load if you take care of your body. You feed it what it needs to and you get it. You're a thoroughbred in the NBA so they should treat you like one.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Thoroughbreds don't have days off.

[B]

I wonder if J. Kidd was vegan. No, he wasn't.

[A]

No. I'm in J. Kidd's ear. I said, sal, I don't want to hear none of that. I'm going to the steakhouse right after this.

[B]

I grew up in Jersey. I like J. Kidd.

[A]

Oh, Yeah.

[B]

I love CP3 is vegan though, right?

[A]

Yeah, he. It's worked for him. Yeah. I went to him in 2016 about it.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And before that. And he was like, nah. And so now he has figured it out. But it's good that he figures out because it's not just about when he's playing. It's his. It's your overall life.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's more than just sports.

[A]

Yeah. I want them to be plant based though. That word vegan sounds like vampire.

[B]

I want to start saying plant based. Vegan almost has a negative kind of.

[A]

To some people. Yeah. They don't understand it. It's because, you know, the vegans are the tough guys. Got to be tough to be vegan Yeah.

[B]

I like plant based though. I love fruit, man.

[A]

Yeah, we got to get you, man.

[B]

Yeah, well, in Vegas there's no fruit, man.

[A]

I'm in the desert and everything is important.

[B]

Yeah, everything.

[A]

Everything is important.

[B]

So we started on garden this month actually.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I want to start growing my own herbs and stuff.

[A]

See. How old are you now?

[B]

28.

[A]

Oh, my God. See, that's when you got smart. No. You know, Phil Jackson said, shaquille became a man at 28. And I said, what do you mean? He said, yeah, seven plus seven plus seven plus seven. You now, at 28, you now are considered a complete man.

[B]

Phil Jackson is my favorite coach.

[A]

Yeah, he's. He was very interested in. My favorite coach is Chuck Daly. Well, Ted Gustus is my favorite coach. That was Dipmis all stars. Yeah. Ted Gus is my favorite coach. But as a pro, I love what Phil would do. I like his moves. But daddy Rich, Chuck Daly is my first coach. He would sit me down and say, and he would have a conversation with me and he goes, you get it? Yeah. If you don't, I gotta get rid of you. I love that.

[B]

He's just straight up, just straight up.

[A]

Hey, I'm gonna have to leave you in Milwaukee when you go.

[B]

Phil was the opposite, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Philosophical.

[A]

Philosophical. And I would always know it's a hidden message, you know, he would give us books and when he thought, hey, this is a good book for you and this is a good book for you. And I don't think the guys realized it. Like he thought that book would resonate with this person and he would get something out of it. So if he gave me a book, I read it. I read it anyway. That's my joy. So I would read it and be like, what message was he trying to tell me? So now I give away books. I give books like the Celestine Prophecy, the Prophet. That's a good one for agreement. What's the latest book I'm about to start reading? Oh, Will Smith gave me a book called Awareness.

[B]

What's that one about?

[A]

Oh, man. When you tell yourself the truth, just being self aware. Well, you. It may seem that, but you got to be truthful to yourself. A lot of people are not truthful to themselves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he made a point, you know, Know your truth, your true truth. And it was written by Joshua. Oh, There we go.

[B]

12:12.

[A]

That's just because I love Frank Ocean.

[B]

That's a good song.

[A]

Yeah. This book was telling me, be truthful to yourself. The truth though, like, no, no. Well, I this is my image and this is how I want to be. No. Exactly who you are. Live in your complete truth. And if people don't like you, they got the problem.

[B]

I love that. I'll check that one out. John, where can people find you and your company?

[A]

Hey, man, you should make sure you do shot better. B E T T A life. And you can go to John Salley and just check me out. And then one day I'm going to have Sean on my show.

[B]

Let's go check him out, guys. Peace. I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.