Julie Menanno: Fix Your Relationship: How Communication Heals Everything | DSH #1514

Summary

Podcast Summary: Digital Social Hour

Episode: Julie Menanno: Fix Your Relationship—How Communication Heals Everything (DSH #1514)

Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Julie Menanno, Podcaster, Author, and Marriage and Family Therapist
Date: August 29, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this insightful conversation, Sean Kelly sits down with renowned marriage and family therapist Julie Menanno to explore why communication lies at the heart of every thriving relationship. Julie draws on her years of experience to discuss attachment theory, emotional availability, the impact of childhood, and practical steps couples can take to heal and deepen intimacy. The episode covers generational trends (from the "red pill" movement to the online dating boom), personal development, and how self-awareness unlocks healthier ways of connecting with others. The tone is open, supportive, and genuinely curious—with both host and guest sharing candid personal anecdotes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Attachment Theory Teaches About Relationships

[04:08–07:40]

• Attachment theory centers on the human need to feel safe, heard, and validated in relationships, whether romantic, family, or social.

• Underlying emotional needs are universal, regardless of how conflicts appear on the surface.

• Breakdown in communication often stems from individuals not feeling heard or validated, leading to defensive behaviors.

  “When two people do not feel heard, do not feel understood, do not feel validated, you're going to have a breakdown in communication.” – Julie [05:10]

• People carry childhood attachment styles and experiences into adult relationships, affecting how they interact and resolve conflicts.

2. The Difference Between Emotional Expression & Availability

[10:22–11:52]

• Many confuse being emotionally expressive with being emotionally available.

• True availability means sharing from a place of vulnerability, not just stating emotions with intensity.

• Example: Instead of just saying, "You never call me back," access the underlying vulnerability (e.g., “I feel ignored, and this reminds me of past wounds”).

  “A lot of people have a hard time talking from their vulnerable feelings.” – Julie [10:25]

3. Childhood Influences and Emotional Patterns

[08:09–14:43]

• Most adults replicate emotional patterns learned from caregivers and early life experiences.

• Issues like anxiety, avoidance, and people-pleasing often trace back to formative years.

• Both host and guest share personal stories of navigating anxiety and learning coping strategies over time (e.g., breathwork, therapy, improving self-awareness).

  “We interact with other people emotionally very similarly to the way we interact with ourselves emotionally.” – Julie [09:10]

4. Addressing the “Red Pill” vs. Feminist Divide: It’s a Communication Issue

[16:44–19:01]

• Polarization in online discourse (e.g., red pill vs. feminist debates) often stems from poor communication and lack of curiosity about what drives people’s beliefs.

• Attaching labels inhibits deep understanding of root fears and emotional drivers.

• Cleaner communication—feeling “heard and seen and understood”—can heal not just couples but societal rifts.

  “If we could start communicating in a way where we're feeling more heard and seen and understood ... I think it would help, you know, kind of balance some of that out.” – Julie [17:57]

5. Love Languages, Attachment Styles & Relationship Growth

[19:01–22:15]

• Understanding and honoring your partner’s primary love language is helpful, but deeper emotional safety is built by uncovering subconscious needs and blocks.

• Many have resistance to opening up (e.g., saying “I love you” if it wasn’t done in their family), but facing discomfort is the path to growth.

  “There's so much hope and time, you know, there's so much hope that no matter how old your child is, you can build those bridges and your partner, too.” – Julie [25:28]

6. Is Everyone Fixable?

[23:24–24:25]

• Anyone “who wants to be fixed is fixable.”

• Readiness and willingness to work on oneself are key; therapists guide and encourage, but growth is an inside job.

  “If someone doesn't want to be fixed, I'm going to give them a compelling reason to want to.” – Julie [23:32]

7. Healthy Relationships: What to Look For

[25:52–28:21]

• Healthy partnerships are marked by curiosity, validation, and a preponderance of positive interactions (ideally a 10:1 positive-to-negative ratio).

• Online dating and checklist mentalities can obscure the deeper “felt sense” of connection that arises only through in-person interaction.

  “We need for each of those interactions to be maximally positive ... many more of the interactions, like let's say 10 to 1 or 20 to 1, be positive instead of negative, then you're gonna be fine.” – Julie [26:02]

8. Digital Era Dating & Loneliness

[28:21–30:44]

• Online dating has fundamentally changed how people meet and relate.
• The explosion of options can make genuine connection harder; organic, in-person bonds offer irreplaceable “felt sense.”
• Many successful people channel old wounds into overwork or achievement, but unaddressed emotional pain resurfaces elsewhere.

9. Boundaries, Accountability, and Repairing Rupture

[33:00–35:08]

• Accountability is a vital quality in sustaining relationships—partners must own their roles in conflict.
• Relationship “ruptures” (conflicts) are inevitable, but success lies in repair and mutual understanding, not blame.
• Patterns such as “anxious” and “avoidant” attachment recur in couples, often playing out the same negative cycles in new contexts.

10. Regulating Emotions—Not Being Ruled by Them

[35:26–41:48]

• Defensiveness and emotional volatility are rooted in unmet needs; healing starts with understanding not just “what” but “why.”

• Timing and delivery are crucial: concerns should be shared when both partners are ready, not in escalating “ping pong” exchanges.

• Emotions should inform but not control; shutting down or exploding are both signs of being ruled by emotion instead of integrating them.

  “Anyone who's doing anything that is not okay in the world, that is not appropriate behavior, is being controlled by their emotions ... whether you see it on the surface or not.” – Julie [40:07]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the universal root of relationship issues:

  “When I'm working with a couple, I'm working with kind of the same couple over and over ... because what's going on under the surface emotionally and from an attachment perspective is just so human and universal.” – Julie [01:35]

• On needing to be fixed:

  “I think anyone who wants to be fixed is fixable. If someone doesn't want to be fixed, I'm going to give them a compelling reason to want to.” – Julie [23:29–23:32]

• On learning to say “I love you”:

  “First time, though, I was in my car. … Now we say it every call, like clockwork.” – Sean [21:26]

• On emotional cycles in conflict:

  “I call them negative cycles. … We have these cycles and it's like once a couple can actually see the cycle and map it out and recognize, oh my God, no matter what we're talking about when we fight, we're having the same pattern.” – Julie [35:08]

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Notable Timestamps

• Attachment Theory Explanation: [04:08–07:40]
• Emotional Availability vs. Expression: [10:22–11:52]
• Effects of Childhood on Adult Relationships: [08:09–14:43]
• Polarization and Communication (Red Pill vs. Feminist): [16:44–19:01]
• Love Languages and Vulnerability: [19:01–22:15]
• Therapy, Fixability & Personal Growth: [23:24–24:25]
• Finding Healthy Relationships: [25:52–28:21]
• Digital Dating Trends: [28:21–30:44]
• Accountability & Rupture Repair: [33:00–35:08]
• Managing and Integrating Emotional Responses: [35:26–41:48]
• Julie’s Book Writing Process: [31:03–32:36]

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Recommended Resources

• Julie Menanno’s Book: “Secure Love” – A step-by-step self-help guide based on Julie’s couples therapy framework.
• Podcast & Website: The Secure Relationship (thesecurerelationship.com), @thesecurerelationship on Instagram.

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Final Takeaways

• Self-awareness is crucial: Labels like attachment styles are tools for understanding, not excuses for behavior.
• Communication is key to healing: Speaking and listening from a place of vulnerability restores connection and safety.
• Repair is more valuable than “never fighting”: Ruptures are inevitable; how couples repair and grow from them determines long-term health.
• You can always learn and change: Both Julie and Sean illustrate that personal growth is lifelong, and even longstanding patterns can be shifted with courage and support.

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(For help with relationships or to dig deeper into your own patterns, check out Julie Menanno’s resources. The episode is a rich resource for anyone interested in emotional health, relationship repair, and self-development.)

Transcript

[Julie]

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[Podcast Host]

All right, guys, we got Julie here today. Podcaster, author, and marriage and family therapist. Thanks for joining us.

[Julie]

Oh, you're so welcome.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. This is stuff these days, right?

[Julie]

Definitely. For sure.

[Podcast Host]

Have you been in the space for a while?

[Julie]

I have, yes.

[Podcast Host]

How long?

[Julie]

I started working with couples in 2012.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So what, 12, 13 years?

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

You seeing the same stuff you saw back then or anything changed?

[Julie]

You know, I always am looking kind of under the surface at the emotional stuff going on, which is very, very consistent. So not really. I see different ways that it manifests and different topics, but I don't, you know, we're really. When I'm working with a couple, I'm working with kind of the same couple over and over and. Because what's going on under the surface emotionally and attach from an attachment perspective is just so human and universal.

[Podcast Host]

So you get to the root cause. And a term my generation uses is gaslighting, which I'm sure you've heard. Right. We just disregard people's emotions.

[Julie]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I've been guilty of that. And I don't even mean to do it sometimes.

[Julie]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

I just. Sometimes I'm too logical and I just disregard the emotion. So I get labeled as a gaslighter. But.

[Julie]

Okay, that's terrible. Sorry that someone calls you a gaslighter, because that's disgusting. Disregarding your emotions.

[Podcast Host]

True. Yeah. I don't mean to, like, do that, you know, that's not my intention.

[Julie]

Yeah. But I guess I think gaslighting has a very, like, deliberateness to it. To me.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Yeah. To me, it's the intention.

[Julie]

Is there that's what I think too.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

That's where I separate.

[Podcast Host]

Maybe they should have meant a new.

[Julie]

Word for they should. They should. Gaslighting is just kind of a real narcissistic thing to do, but missing someone's emotions is just, you know, a lot of us are doing that all the time.

[Podcast Host]

Well, yeah, I don't want to, like. Like I have autism. I don't want to put all the blame on that, but, like, I just don't pick up on social, like, cues and. Sure, sometimes people take that the wrong way.

[Julie]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm so sorry.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. I didn't find out. Well, I kind of figured I had it. A lot of people have it these days, but. Yeah, I got a brain scan like a year or two.

[Julie]

Interesting. Okay.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

Okay, so. So we can pick that up on brain scans now, these days.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

Pretty crazy.

[Julie]

What are they finding? Like, what area of the brain?

[Podcast Host]

Just certain part. I don't know the exact area, but certain parts aren't activated.

[Julie]

Okay. Like the mirror Ne.

[Podcast Host]

Something like that. Yeah. Shout out to Dr. Daniel. Amen.

[Julie]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I follow him on Instagram. He's great.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, yeah.

[Julie]

Yep.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. But that was important for me to at least know, I think for sure helped my friendships a lot. And explaining to my friends that, hey, I'm not actually a dick. I'm just not picking up on this social cue right now, you know?

[Julie]

Yes, totally. Yeah. I think any kind of self knowledge like that, you know, as long as people aren't using it to kind of pathologize themselves. But I think it's great. That's why I do. What I do with attachment theory is help people. People have these labels, not to kind of box them in, but to help them better understand themselves and, you know, what kind of work on themselves could be really useful.

[Podcast Host]

Right. So attachment theory, can you explain what that is for people that don't know?

[Julie]

Sure. Attachment theory is basically a theory that says for two people to feel safe with each other and close with each other, we have to have these attachment needs be met. And the more emotional expectation from the relationship, the more attachment needs are there. Right. So for you and I right now, I mean, we're. We're assessing each other's safety. You know, not with words and not consciously, but we're feeling. We're, you know, our brains are going, is this person safe? Is this person open to what I have to say? Is this person, you know, closed down? And if we really get more words to that, operationally, it's, am I being Understood. Am I being heard? Am I being responded to? Am I being validated? Right. For example, if I were to say to you, well, I think autism is an overused word right now. I mean, that's going to be hard for you because this label means a lot to you. It has helped you in life to feel more secure and be able to communicate yourself and build safety with other people because you have a new way to make sense of behavior that maybe was sometimes pushing people away. Right. So it's a way to draw people closer. So we're talking just. That little blurb is you talking about your emotional needs. And so, yeah, that's kind of, I'm kind of getting off track here. But when two people do not feel heard, do not feel understood, do not feel validated, you're going to have a breakdown in communication. We're going to go into kind of defensive positions. And, and this happens at work. It happens in any kind of interactions. Right. You know, political interactions. I mean, you could kind of like apply the concept to these two polar opposites of the political spectrum. Everybody has their, their ideas and. But nobody's really, truly kind of listening to each other.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Julie]

And a lot of people aren't understanding the emotional roots of their ideas to begin with, which is very useful when you have an opinion. Right. And then you, you now plug all of this into relationships where we have exponentially more need for emotional safety and connection. Right. And now people aren't growing up in homes where they're learning how to do this. And then it just creates, you know, all sorts of, of problems. And once you start eroding emotional safety and closeness between a couple, it doesn't matter what they're arguing about. It's not gonna, it's there. That emotional problem is going to find the weak spots in the relationship to start manifesting.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Julie]

Yeah. And then people start saying, well, we're just incompatible or, you know, we just fight too much. And really there's a way around all of that. And that is just kind of get. Dig in there and get to the root of the problem and help them start building actual safety and closeness. Yeah, I feel their communication.

[Podcast Host]

I love that. Because a lot of people don't get to the root of the problem.

[Julie]

They don't. And they don't know what it is. And they want to. You know, most people want to badly, but they just don't. They don't have a way to make sense of it. And that's what I do is I really start to help people make sense of the root cause. Once you can make sense of it, it becomes so much easier to treat it. And that's what I love about attachment theory. Is it? You know, I think it's the closest science has come to really helping us understand what makes relationships struggle and what makes them thrive.

[Podcast Host]

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[Julie]

Yeah, and this is parent, child and then romantic partners that you're going to use this theory for.

[Podcast Host]

How often is the roots from stemming from childhood experiences?

[Julie]

Almost always. Yeah, I mean it, what happens is people kind of go into this relationships with poor relationships with themselves. Because our relationship with ourself is a template. I mean, I'm sorry, our relationship with our earliest caregivers, you know, throughout life is going to create this template of our relationship with ourselves, which. What does that even mean operationally? I can explain that later. And then we're going to take that stuff into a relationship with the partner, they're going to bring their stuff in and now we're going to create problems between the two of us. So my job is to go in and stabilize the problem between the two of them and the personal stuff that is contributing to the problem between the two of them. And I've yet to meet a couple where both partners weren't bringing their own stuff to the table.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I feel like that's just natural human nature, right?

[Julie]

Yeah. We interact with other people emotionally very similarly to the way we interact with ourselves emotionally.

[Podcast Host]

Are you seeing a lot of guys kind of more closed off when they're speaking with you?

[Julie]

You know the problem with my perspective on that is I see the ones who are showing up to therapy. But no, I don't see a lot of that. I actually see guys who are actually very open to this work and willing to do it and willing to open up. I also am trained to open them up, so that helps. But I think, you know, in the past probably there's some truth to the fact that men had a lot less emotional awareness, let's say 10 years ago or awareness that emotional Awareness exists, you know, kind of a thing. So I think there's been a lot of dialogue that's been helpful. But for the most part, I think what I see a lot of is women, whoops, sorry about that. Men are aware they're emotionally unavailable. Women think they're emotionally available when they're actually not emotionally available. They're emotionally expressive. But there's a very big difference between emotional expression and emotional availability. So I do see a lot of that.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. What's the difference?

[Julie]

The difference is people can have all sorts of emotional affect and say things with passion and say, I'm sad or angry or whatever and kind of like talk about their feelings. But a lot of people have a hard time talking from their vulnerable feelings. So they're able to know I'm angry and I'm sad because you didn't call me back. But they're not really able to tap in and go, what did that mean that I didn't call back? What are the fears around not getting called back? What happened in my life prior to this moment of not getting called back? It's making this not getting called back such a big trigger. Or what unmet needs am I experiencing in the relationship that is leading to me to be so sensitive to not getting called back. Right. And then around that, there's a lot of emotions that aren't being talked about and they're not able to really get those hurt emotions healed because they're not able to put words to that and say to their partner, hey, you know, here's what's going on with me. Right. You know, when I don't get called back, it takes me to this bad place and I feel kind of ignored. And I've felt that before. And sometimes I feel like that in our relationship and I can. I let it go. Let it go. But then, bam, when you don't call me back and that person is now drawing their partner in more than just kind of going off and saying, you never call me back. You don't care about me, and crying. That's emotional expression. It's not so vulnerable, though.

[Podcast Host]

That definitely happened to me. I was a big people pleaser growing up. Definitely abandonment issues, too. Divorced household and not feeling like I was enough.

[Julie]

Yep, yep.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. So I went through that for sure.

[Julie]

Yeah. So then you start kind of having those wounds that are getting acted out.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Because when conflict would arise, I would shut down.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And that definitely. But over into my relationship and friendship.

[Julie]

Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Very. A lot of screaming in my household. Growing Up.

[Julie]

Okay. So you dealt with that anxiety by just kind of turning it off.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

Right. And what helped you kind of get more in touch with that deeper stuff? So you were able to start communicating.

[Podcast Host]

In new ways, just slowly opening up over time, I think. You know, at first I wouldn't tell anyone my issues and that. That can bottle up, you know, I saw it with my dad. Like, he had a lot of trauma. He never got it out. So, yeah, I think just slowly doing that and getting my mental and physical health better.

[Julie]

Beautiful. Okay.

[Podcast Host]

So a combination of things.

[Julie]

Yeah. Did. Did somehow one teach you how to kind of access that stuff inside of you that.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Breath work was okay. Beautiful. That helped for sure. Tried medication that didn't work, so I wouldn't really. I don't know about that.

[Julie]

Yeah, that'll kind of blunt it, but not really treat it.

[Podcast Host]

I'm not the biggest fan of that. Like I said, I like the root cause, getting down to that. So I've tried, like, hypnosis therapy. I've tried, like, just being in nature. Tried a bunch of different stuff. Good talk therapy, psychedelic therapy.

[Julie]

Okay, well, good for you that you were able to figure that out.

[Podcast Host]

I'm still figuring it out. Like, it's not fully healed, if I'm being honest.

[Julie]

But yeah, I mean, I think that. Yeah, I mean, I think probably you'll see that you just keep healing over time. Yeah, I feel like that ball rolling.

[Podcast Host]

And it's always a. Like, people think it just ends. I think self development's like, your whole life.

[Julie]

I do, too. I don't think it ends. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

I think it starts to get more comfortable.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Julie]

For sure.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Now I'm at the spot now where if I feel anxiety creeping in, I have some procedures where I'll prevent an attack from occurring.

[Julie]

Totally.

[Podcast Host]

But before, I couldn't control it. Just have a panic attack.

[Julie]

Yeah. I would just come find you.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Did you ever deal with that, too?

[Julie]

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, for sure. I mean, I. I grew up with a lot of anxiety and just over time learned, you know, all sorts of strategies, and I definitely don't deal with that as much as I don't deal with it a lot at all, to be honest with you. But when I do, you know, I kind of know I have, like, a large bag of tools because of just picking stuff up over the years, so.

[Podcast Host]

And I feel like back then, you people didn't talk about that, like, mental health as much.

[Julie]

No, I had no words for it. I remember saying to my mom once, like, I just feel Nervous all the time.

[Podcast Host]

And she was like.

[Julie]

I was like, what? I don't know what that means, you know, so, yeah, people didn't for sure.

[Podcast Host]

I wonder if it was as common back then, but people just didn't know what it was.

[Julie]

Yeah, I think it was.

[Podcast Host]

I do. So.

[Julie]

I do. Yeah. I think maybe we could go back further and find a time in history where people weren't maybe so anxious. I'm not sure about that, but I think, you know, it's really. It did start to get, I think, a lot worse with more modern modernization. Seems to create a lot of, I think, anxiety in people.

[Podcast Host]

The stats on it now are mind blowing.

[Julie]

It's unbelievable.

[Podcast Host]

What is it now? Like one out of three people have anxiety?

[Julie]

I don't. I would say three out of three. I mean, honestly, like one out of three to me, seems conservative.

[Podcast Host]

Wow. It's not bad.

[Julie]

I look around people in my life, you know, for sure. I mean, I, I, you know, I always have this perspective, this view of the people I treat and the view of the people in my real life, and I feel like everybody's struggling with it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that is crazy. But it's, it's really hard economically to raise a family right now, so I think that's part of it for sure. Before, only one parent had to work. Could buy a house, easily work the same job. Your whole. I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.

[Julie]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

Now it's like.

[Julie]

And then you have to live up to the, you know, the image expectations. On top of just trying. Oops, sorry about that. On top of just trying to make a living, you know, so you have to now have the right car and the right clothes and the right vacations and comparing.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, I've been down that road.

[Julie]

Yeah, me too. And I'm glad I'm not anymore.

[Podcast Host]

I still kind of do it with podcasting. I'm always competitive, but yeah, I'm very aware of it. That I can get dangerous real quick.

[Julie]

It's hard because your livelihood depends on it, you know, it's not like it's difficult. I mean, it's like if you're at the top, then, you know, you almost have to, like, do work harder to maintain that 100.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's harder maintaining than getting that.

[Julie]

I think I agree with you.

[Podcast Host]

Way harder because now you got a target on your back. You got people coping. You.

[Julie]

Yep. You can, Anything can come along and your life is now built around that and. Yeah, yeah, you have more to lose.

[Podcast Host]

Absolutely. I did want to touch on the red pill stuff.

[Julie]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

I just had on a feminist. I've also had on people in the red pill. Have you studied that sort of ideology?

[Julie]

I do understand now that it's kind of like the battle between feminism and anti feminism. You know, I don't professionally know, but personally, yes. This is something that I have, you know, very familiar with and interested in. I find it fascinating, a lot of this.

[Podcast Host]

I see the comments. People think it stems from trauma where, like, a girl would screw that guy over, cheat on them, and then now they're all about male empowerment. I could see that argument.

[Julie]

I could, too. I think there might be plenty of people that didn't have that experience that are going over there too, you know.

[Podcast Host]

There definitely is. Yeah, there's both.

[Julie]

Yeah. I think it. To me there, I always look kind of in the broader system view, you know, systemically. I think it's. It's. It's this whole. I don't know what you want to call it, maybe politics and this whole masculine feminine energy thing that's just like desperately trying to balance itself. And the more out of balance it gets, the more you're going to see people kind of going on to these more extreme edges.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. A lot of division, right?

[Julie]

Yeah, I think so. And then that kind of circles back to. To me, there a lot of it is, I think, a communication issue, you know, between the different sides. I mean, everybody's sort of talking about their ideas and opinions about it, but we're missing the piece of people really kind of diving into themselves and understanding more about, like, why do I see it this way? What are my fears around this? You know, why. Why is this so important to me outside of just kind of the surface level stuff? And then nobody's. When people are having a hard time kind of speaking from that place or at least adding it in, you know, I don't want people to change necessarily their beliefs or values. But if we could start communicating in a way where we're feeling more heard and seen and understood and just instead of just calling, you know, being called a whatever, you know, radical feminist or red pillar or whatever, I think it would help, you know, kind of balance some of that out. I mean, what I found with working with couples extensively is when I can get the communication cleaned up, some of the symptoms just start. Many of the symptoms just start to really resolve on their own.

[Podcast Host]

It saved my. My marriage.

[Julie]

Oh, beautiful.

[Podcast Host]

Fixing our communication.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And I'm glad we did that because we have different love languages. So, like, mine is action.

[Julie]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

Acts of service.

[Julie]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

But that's not hers. Like, when I would do things for her that to me, showed I love her, but she is. Words of affirmation.

[Julie]

I was going to say she words.

[Podcast Host]

So that was my worst thing, like I mentioned earlier, words opening up communication. So I had to develop that skill and tell her stuff every day.

[Julie]

Well, I love that you were able to do that.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

And she was able to join you in that, too.

[Podcast Host]

That was a good test. What's that test called? A love language test or something? Yeah. That's a good one.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I know there's a bunch of tests, but that one, really, that learned a lot about that one. Yeah.

[Julie]

Okay. Beautiful.

[Podcast Host]

Do you recommend any other tests?

[Julie]

I mean, I think it's always really useful to know your attachment style.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, we took that one, too.

[Julie]

Okay. Yeah. I think I would say attachment style is maybe like a step deeper than the love languages, but very useful because the love language is, you know, if you can start shifting just that part and start showing up for people, you know, start showing up for your partner in the way that. But underneath the surface, it's still emotion about emotional safety. Right. It's just that she gets to emotional safety in a different way that you do. And so with some couples, the love languages just aren't going to be enough. We have. We still have some more stuff to clean up underneath, you know, the surface to get them to understand. Because a lot of people have blocks to doing their partner's love language. Right. They're like, I don't. I'm not going to give her words of affirmation. She doesn't appreciate me. She tell. I. I'm just constantly. And this doesn't have to be conscious, but I'm just constantly getting messages. I'm failing. I'm just constantly not feeling appreciated. And that's going to be really hard for that person to all of a sudden go, oh, well, now I'm going to meet her where she's at.

[Podcast Host]

You know, that happened to me.

[Julie]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I think I had a block.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I didn't tell my parents, and I never told each other. We love each other. Like, so saying I love you was hard. Oh, my God.

[Julie]

Oh, is that so vulnerable?

[Podcast Host]

I remember on the phone with my mom, I think the first time I told her was a few years ago. It was hard.

[Julie]

What did she say? I'm so curious. She did.

[Podcast Host]

And then I was like, okay, let me say it again on the next Call. And then it slowly got. Now we say it every call, like clockwork.

[Julie]

Okay. That's so brave of you to be able to do that.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Yeah. First time, though, I was in my car. Oh, my God.

[Julie]

Yeah. But I know it's like, you hear. You hear these stories about, you know, I was never told, I love you. And it's just, you know, there's so much to that. It's like it takes that level of rising above that discomfort to be able to do it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

It's not like just people randomly withholding, you know.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. I guess with my parents, in regards to them, it just wasn't their love language. And they just showed it through action.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Like, of course they love me, but. Yeah. Even when my dad, when I moved, he gave me a hug and we both just started crying. Oh, my gosh. She's never done that before. And it was like.

[Julie]

That's amazing.

[Podcast Host]

Probably one of the most cherishing memories I have of him.

[Julie]

Wow. That's beautiful.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. So now I'm glad I'm learning all this stuff before I have kids, though, because.

[Julie]

Oh, my gosh.

[Podcast Host]

You gotta change the way you walk.

[Julie]

Star for doing that. Yes.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Well, you know, growing up in a divorced household, it's pretty tough.

[Julie]

It is. Yeah. It is. If you don't learn to, you know, speak. Emotional safety. Kids need it more than anyone.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. You know, it definitely, like, affected all my friendships, all my relationships, and trying to fit in with friend groups and everything, you know?

[Julie]

Yeah. That's hard.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Not having that male father figure.

[Julie]

Oh, my gosh. Did you grow up just with your mom then, or.

[Podcast Host]

I saw him on, like, weekends.

[Julie]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

But it wasn't, like, an active role. Got it in my upbringing, so I was also too scared to open up to him about the problems I was dealing with. So we never really touched on emotional stuff.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. I feel like this is a therapy session.

[Julie]

I always. Yeah. That's just.

[Podcast Host]

You got that energy, too.

[Julie]

I know, I know. I can't not. Sorry.

[Podcast Host]

No, you're great. I could see why you do this for a living, though.

[Julie]

Yeah. I'm just. I have such a genuine curiosity for people and, you know, want to dive into that, so.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Do you think everyone is fixable? Like, I'm sure you've seen some crazy stuff.

[Julie]

I think anyone who wants to be fixed is fixable.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

Fixable. Yeah. Yeah. And if someone doesn't want to be fixed, I'm going to give them a compelling reason to want to.

[Podcast Host]

I love that. Yeah. I think it's a lot on yourself. If you're ready to make a change.

[Julie]

It does.

[Podcast Host]

You could tell them whatever, but if they don't actually do it, well, I.

[Julie]

Can get people pretty quickly into their feelings in the session and do a lot of really good work in the session. But whether or not they're able to kind of start showing up like, you did it with your mom. Right. You did it by. By feeling that anxiety and not letting it win. Right. You felt that fear and anxiety, but you knew, hey, there's something. There's something good that might come out of being able to say I love you to my mom. And you were willing to face that vulnerability and go ahead and do it. Some people just aren't. They're not ready yet to do things new.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. I think, unfortunately, it takes a big moment to get there sometimes. Like, for me, it was my father's death. I was like, okay, let me really spend time with my mother. Like, you never know when their time is gonna be over. So I was like, let me cherish this. And now she's the biggest fan of the show, and she watches every episode. We talk every day now, which is crazy, because in college, I called her, like, twice.

[Julie]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

You know, I was like, I'm getting out of here. We used to butt heads a lot growing up. Being an only child is tough for a parent.

[Julie]

I had a similar. I've had a similar experience with my son, you know? Cause I have six children, and he was the oldest. Yeah. And I did not know how to create emotional safety. And so he was kind of on the losing end of that. Right. Because he not only didn't get a lot of that, but then the other kids started being born, and I had them all in 10 years. So it was pretty close together. And so then I started just getting so much better at it now. I'm just so good at it. And now we're so close. I mean, he calls me every single day.

[Podcast Host]

I love that.

[Julie]

Yeah. It's beautiful. So for anybody out there who's a parent that worries, oh, my gosh. I wasn't getting it right. Like, there's so much hope and time, you know, there's so much hope that no matter how old your child is, you can build those bridges and your partner, too.

[Podcast Host]

Absolutely. What do you look for when it comes to finding healthy relationships? I'm sure you get a lot of people coming to you for dating advice, right?

[Julie]

Absolutely. I think someone who is, you know, willing to just be curious about you, willing to.

Kind of validate you Emotionally. And someone who, when you're, when you're interacting, I mean, I always like to say a relationship is not just this big global thing. Right. It's a series of interactions and very simple interactions. Right. And we need for each of those interactions to be maximally positive. And if we can figure out a way to have more of the many, many more of the interactions, like let's say 10 to 1 or 20 to 1, be positive instead of negative, then you're gonna be fine. Right. And so what happens is people, they're having these negative interactions, but they don't know it because they haven't. You know, they just. They just have a disconnect between their body and what they want. And they have a list, and the person fits the list. And they don't know how to assess for kind of like a felt sense of connection and safety. And so they're having these negative interactions, but they don't know it, so they just keep going forward. And so what I want to help people do is, like, really learn what a positive interaction feels like and then start, you know, assessing for that. Hey, at. At the date, the first date, right. Did. Yes, this person looks great on paper. You know, we want the same things out of life. I feel physically attracted to them, which is very important. All of those things are very important. But are they saying, did I feel really heard? Did I feel really seen? Did I feel really understood? Did they let me see them? Did they give me something to understand in them?

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Julie]

And I think people, because they didn't grow up in homes where they had words, you know, it's like, we know what our favorite food is. We can put words to it. We can describe it. We can. We learn to talk about food from the time where, you know, our first words. And, and we're not learning that about emotional health. And so I just, I really want to give people, like, operationally something to assess for.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah. We're never taught about emotional health. It's, like, frowned upon.

[Julie]

Yeah, no, it is. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Talk about that stuff.

[Julie]

It is. And it's not like you have to live in it, you know, it's not like you have to live in these heavy, deep emotional conversations. I mean, just, you know, having the felt sense of being understood is getting that need met, whether you're putting words to that, you know, piece of it or like, very explicitly or not, but at least, you know, you can put words to it explicitly if you need to.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah. I like what you said about the checklist earlier, too, because I see that in my generation, like, with the online dating era, it's like they got to be this height, this amount of money, they got to look this way.

[Julie]

It's no wonder, you know, people are having a hard time because there's so many beautiful qualities about a person that cannot be on that, you know, you could really love that they don't fit into that list. And there's so many people that can fit everything on the list that really aren't going to be good partners.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, 100. I just saw this crazy video the other day. 70% of people that are in relationships, getting into relationships right now meet through online dating apps. And like, 25 years ago, that number was zero.

[Julie]

Oh, I'm sure. Absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

Evolving. The dating scene's evolving so fast. It's going towards digital and.

[Julie]

And you don't get, you know, you're. There's so much missing from looking at someone on a screen. There's just so much missing that, you know, meeting. And I don't know what the answer is because the way we live is so different, but it's like, you know, let's just say going to a bar 25 years ago, like, you have five minutes to feel the person out. Like, you, you know, you have a felt sense of them.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Julie]

In real life that you can simply. That five minutes cannot be duplicated on a screen. And now you have all these people coming at you. Like, how do you even decide who you're going to give that five minutes to?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, a woman got hundreds of matches.

[Julie]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[Podcast Host]

And guys are the opposite. They're swiping away.

[Julie]

Yep.

[Podcast Host]

It's interesting.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So, yeah.

[Julie]

Stunted things, I think. But again, I don't know. I do. And I would like to think that people will adapt to it and figure out a way to navigate, you know, somehow it'll. It'll start to even itself out.

[Podcast Host]

I hope so.

[Julie]

I don't know if people will start. Like, that will push people into maybe wanting more in person communities and people will start to build that up as a way to offset the trend.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

You know, balance it out.

[Podcast Host]

I think it'll change because it's gone from like hookup apps and hookup culture to more like personalized dating now. Like, there's better apps, I think good. Like hinge and stuff.

[Julie]

Good to know.

[Podcast Host]

But before, it's just like hooking up.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Like, that was. Yeah.

[Julie]

I also think there's something to be said for things happening organically, you know, instead of like, we're going in this to date, you know, We're. We're assessing each other for a romantic partnership instead of just kind of letting you know the classmate at your university involved in the conversation or whatever.

[Podcast Host]

That's how it used to be, right?

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Referral of a friend or something.

[Julie]

Yes. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Those were the days. Yeah.

[Julie]

And I mean, as I say that, it's like, I don't. I don't mean to be judgmental of people. What else are you gonna do? You know, we kind of. If all the other people around you aren't doing that too, you know, you're kind of stuck, kind of forced at this point. Exactly. What are you gonna do?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. You have a book on this stuff, right? Secure Love.

[Julie]

Secure Love, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

When did you write that?

[Julie]

I started writing it five years ago. It took me about four years, and it was released January of 24, so, yeah, it's been going for four years.

[Podcast Host]

That's impressive to dedicate that much time.

[Julie]

It did. I literally went into it thinking I could write the book in a month. I would have never signed up for that.

[Podcast Host]

No ghostwriter?

[Julie]

No, no, no.

[Podcast Host]

Hats off to you because you put in the work.

[Julie]

I did. I did what? Go ahead.

[Podcast Host]

I was gonna say I haven't written a book yet, but that route is appealing to me. As long as you still have a lot of creative control.

[Julie]

I did. Yeah. My publishers were great. They gave me a lot of control, and they gave me a lot of bounds, which I needed. I mean, the first manuscript was 130,000 words. Yeah. And they wanted me to get down into 70, and that was hard, but we did it.

[Podcast Host]

Wow. So it's 70,000 words.

[Julie]

Yeah. Maybe a little bit more.

[Podcast Host]

How many pages is that? Oh, my God.

[Julie]

300. I don't know. Wow. It's pretty dense. I mean, I don't know. Like, some. It's funny. You read the reviews, and some people are like, it's just so simple and easy to understand. And then some people are like, well, actually, most people love it. I mean, it's got great reviews. But some people are like, it was too complicated. I'm like, how do you go? How are you so far apart from each other?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

So.

[Podcast Host]

Well, that's just life. A lot of stuff is relative and subjective to people, right?

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

They could be looking at the same exact thing and describe two different things.

[Julie]

Totally.

[Podcast Host]

It's all based off your past. Like, we started with.

[Julie]

I think so. Your lens. Yeah, yeah, your lens.

[Podcast Host]

Some people have that victim lens. And then some people see a challenge and they're like, I love it.

[Julie]

Yep. You know yeah, absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

I'm glad I experienced both because I could see which one I like more.

[Julie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

The victim one was not a fun.

[Julie]

It's hard. No. Not a fun place to like that. Yeah. I have to help people really get out of that.

[Podcast Host]

There's no growth.

[Julie]

It's just stuck. It's just stuck in us. And then it turns into blame. Right. The victim is in the blame role. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And it's like, it was never my fault.

[Julie]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, even people that come to me that they know, they're like, yeah, I know I have a fault in this. Like, they still don't believe they have a fault deep down in there, you.

[Podcast Host]

Know, just saying it to say it.

[Julie]

No, they really, they. They really, like, intellectually know they have a fault, but emotionally it's not part. The two aren't connected. You almost have to get them emotionally engaged.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

And help them understand how they're dealing with their emotions in a way that is impacting their relationship and themselves very negatively. And then they start to open up to their fault, you know, really, truly, without it just being kind of this like intellectual understanding.

[Podcast Host]

I could see that accountability, for me is one of the most important traits.

[Julie]

It's so important in a friend, in.

[Podcast Host]

A relationship, in business. If you don't have that, I just can't do it.

[Julie]

No, because you're always going to have, you know, relationship ruptures. I always say rupture and repair. That's what relationships are. You know, we. We do if too close, people will have ruptures. And you got to be able to repair those ruptures. And if you can't take accountability for your part in the rupture and see your partner's accountability, because some people take too much accountability.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Julie]

You won't. You know, the ruptures will just start to destroy the relationship.

[Podcast Host]

So you think those are inevitable in a relationship?

[Julie]

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I call them negative cycles where, you know, people aren't feeling. They're. They're interacting. Right. And they're not feeling heard, seen, understood, validated, connected with, appreciated, all these attachment needs. And they don't. They don't know how to deal with the pain of those needs being unmet and they're not even aware. Aware of the pain. They just know they're getting escalated in the argument. And then they start behaving in ways that just keep unmeeting each other's attachment needs. And then everything just falls apart. It's like we have this, you know, the anxious, attached partner who's typically going to be the one bringing up the problems.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Julie]

Because their anxiety is driving them to close the distance in the relationship. And then we have the avoidant attached partner who their way of keeping things good is don't rock the boat, keep things stable, don't make things worse than they already are.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that was me.

[Julie]

Yeah, exactly. And so then we have the anxious partner coming in hot with, you know, you do this, you never do that. You always, you never. Because they have good reasons to be doing that. They're upset, their needs aren't being met. And then the avoidant partner's over here going, whoa, I don't know how to respond to that. It's better just to kind of shut it all down and either get defensive and try to get them to see they're wrong or change the subject or just shut down completely and don't talk about it. Well, then that leaves the anxious partner feeling unseen and invalidated. And then they get bigger and then the avoidant partner now feels unseen and invalidated and whatever else. And then they go, go into their position more rigidly. And then we have these cycles and it's like once a couple can actually see the cycle and map it out and recognize, oh my God, no matter what we're talking about when we fight, we're going. We're having the same pattern.

[Podcast Host]

Right. So yeah, the. What's the approach with people that get defensive easily and they, they get mad or emotional, I guess.

[Julie]

Well, first we need to understand why, why are you needing to get defensive? Right. What, what, what unmet need are you experiencing in this moment and what emotional pain is around that unmet need that your body is kind of just, just really without even thinking about it, going into defending.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

Right. So I want to help you. Just, I don't want to say like, don't be defensive. That's not going to get you anybody anywhere. It's like we understand what you're needing to not have to be defensive. Right. And then once we figure out what they're needing, they're able to kind of express that more clearly. And then, you know, we also need to recognize why the other person might be showing up in a way that is eliciting that defense. Right. What are they doing? What's their role?

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Julie]

How are the, how is this a, you know, a co creation and you know, that defensive person? First of all, usually people get defensive when someone's bringing up a concern to them. Right?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

And so I need to clean up how that concern is being delivered by the other party. And what I'll see is sometimes even when that person is delivering that concern in the healthiest way possible, that doesn't always stop the defensiveness. Sometimes we get defensive because of our own stuff. Not necessarily. And so I ultimately need to get that person to a point where they can kind of put all those bad feelings on the side and just dive in and lean into their partner. What their partner's saying to them, be like, okay, I'm not gonna. I. I know what's going on with me now. I'm. I'm getting some emotional awareness around this. I'm not gonna let that hijack what my partner has to bring to me.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

I'm gonna open up to them and I'm gonna lean into that. Hopefully they're delivering their stuff in the healthiest way possible. And then later, hours later, once we've kind of. Because that person has the floor, if they're bringing up the concern. Right. Hours later, then maybe we'll go into my stuff. Everybody's stuff matters, but couples get really stuck with bad timing.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

Just going back and forth. Everybody's. It's like a ping pong, need, need battle, you know?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. So taking that little break sometimes.

[Julie]

Yes. And just like, really helping couples lean into each other.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Because once your emotions cool off, you can think more logically, right?

[Julie]

Yeah, exactly. And I want. I want people to think more logically, balanced out with emotional awareness. You know, it's not about leaning too heavily into either.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Julie]

We need to be people to kind of be whole and be able to do both. And sometimes we do need to turn our emotions off. You know, sometimes we do need to just like, go logic and whatever the moment's calling for. And then sometimes we need to, you know, turn the logic off and just be. Just be vulnerable.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Yeah. Emotions are fascinating to me because some people say to listen to them, some people say they're like triggers. They're warning signs. There's a lot of different takes on it, but I know not to ignore them because I used to do that. Yeah, I used to do that. So I don't do that anymore.

[Julie]

But now you want to not let them overwhelm you, but you want to pay attention to them. For sure.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

That's how I view them too. Because some people, they let them control them.

[Julie]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

I see it with anger, specifically when I'm playing basketball and, you know, guys talking and they get in a fight, they can't control their emotions.

[Julie]

Yep. And. And, you know, it's equally problematic to. For Someone who. They're also letting their emotions control them. When they're shutting them down because they're. They're cutting off parts of themselves, they're going to have a hard time connecting with others, and they're going to have a hard time showing up for others emotionally. It just. You're not seeing it as this big explosion of anger.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. I didn't even think about it that way, but that makes sense.

[Julie]

Yeah. I think that's the. That's the root of the problem, truly, is that people are being controlled by their emotions, period. And nobody recognizes this. It's like everybody, you know, that someone doesn't like or is. How am I going to say this? Anybody who's doing anything that is not okay in the world, that is not appropriate behavior, is being controlled by their emotions, whether you see it on the surface or not. Right. Whether you, you know, they look like the most reasonable person or they look like a big hot head.

That's interesting. Yeah. So really, again, all of this is kind of rooted in how are you responding to your own emotions. And that's going to heavily inform how you're showing up with your partner's emotions.

[Podcast Host]

Do you think you could channel emotions for the. For the better? Like some people say they could channel their anger into, like, productivity?

[Julie]

Yes. I think that can be healthy unless the anger is actually being addressed. If you're using the productivity to not address the anger, that's a problem. If you're using the productivity as a part of dealing with the anger, and that's healthy, but not exclusive. If anger is being channeled into productivity and not getting dealt with, it will find you. It will find a way to come back out. You know, it will. It will come out in passive aggressive. It will come out and workaholism. It will come about out in health problems. You know, it's going to. It's going to be there.

[Podcast Host]

That happened to me because I got bullied a lot growing up, and I would say I was. Had a lot of anger from that.

[Julie]

Sure.

[Podcast Host]

And workaholic to the extreme.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And my physical health deteriorated. It came out like, just so I.

[Julie]

Want to, like my. My therapist question would be, what.

What was the productivity doing? What was the workaholism doing to help you with the anger? Why was that the way that you were regulating that anger? That's what I would want to know. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Why was I doing that? Well, yeah, I wanted to prove everyone wrong.

[Julie]

Sure.

[Podcast Host]

I wanted to, like, be super successful or whatever financially and on social media and I guess the way I had to get there was just to outwork everyone.

[Julie]

Sure.

[Podcast Host]

I was working 80 hours a week and I guess I was just. I probably wasn't even addressing it. I was just pushing it to the side.

[Julie]

Yeah. You know, so the, so underneath the anger was kind of this like probably existential loneliness.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I was very lonely.

[Julie]

Yeah. The, the epitome of rejection. Right.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

I mean, especially unhealthily. And so that was like the wound. Right. Is kind of existential lonely. And that's a sad place to be. Right.

[Podcast Host]

Super sad.

[Julie]

The only thing you knew to do to try to regulate all of that was, well, if I can just get success, then I'll be accepted and then I won't have to feel all this pain.

[Podcast Host]

Exactly. And I see a lot of my financially successful friends talk about some similar.

[Julie]

Interesting.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I think a lot of financially successful people have the most trauma.

[Julie]

I think so too. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Because I'm friends with a lot of these guys and tons of trauma.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Like usually it's like they didn't fit in or they got made fun of or bullied or.

[Julie]

Right. So they're regulating that feeling of rejection with.

[Podcast Host]

Through overworking.

[Julie]

And then the overworking is going to.

[Podcast Host]

Lead to, you know, health issues and then it replaced.

[Julie]

Well, it'll also lead to wealth.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. You know, it leads to wealth. And then a lot of them try to buy back their time because their health sucks. It's like a never ending cycle.

[Julie]

It comes at a great cost.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Everything does. Right. Every action has a. Yeah. Opposite and equal reaction.

[Julie]

I mean, I think once you get healthy and balanced, you're not. Your body isn't just constantly trying to rebalance. It's so exhausting for the body to just constantly being. Trying to rebalance. So once you start to live from a balanced place, it's just, you know, you don't have to work so hard.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Internally getting closer to that.

[Julie]

Good.

[Podcast Host]

Beautiful. I'm taking my sleep serious. My diet.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Mental health and everything. And I'm. Yeah. I'm probably the most fulfilled I've ever been right now. I don't like saying happy because that, that to me is temporary.

[Julie]

I agree with that.

[Podcast Host]

So I stay fulfilled.

[Julie]

I love it.

[Podcast Host]

But I wake up every day like, I can't wait to interview these people.

[Julie]

Oh, that's beautiful. You certainly have a great, great job for that.

[Podcast Host]

It's a lot of fun. I know you're a podcaster too, so you can relate.

[Julie]

Yeah, yeah, I do. I work with one couple though, for 20 sessions. So basically I'm. I wrote the book to kind of walk couples through a self help version of the treatment that I do in my private, my practice with couples. And then the podcast is doing that with a couple, doing the book with a couple, you know, so people can like use the book to get to the work and then use the couple to see the work come alive.

[Podcast Host]

So I love how like relatable and actionable that is.

[Julie]

Yeah, I really try. I mean, I really like, I comment through the. Throughout the whole thing. Like, this is why I'm doing this with this partner. This is what I'm hoping for. This is going to be the result. And it's kind of like, okay, my version of trying to walk people through a therapeutic process that they can't maybe access on their own because it's, I'm sure, you know, like how difficult it can be to.

[Podcast Host]

Insurance doesn't cover it. Right?

[Julie]

Yeah. And just sometimes, you know, the quality isn't so great or it's hard for couples to, to coordinate their schedules if they're both having to work. You know, there's a lot of barriers to, to good couples therapy. So.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, there's definitely a negative stigma around it too. If they have one bad experience.

[Julie]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

They'll label the entire industry as a scam or whatever.

[Julie]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Julie]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Uphill battle for you. Well, we'll link, we'll link your pod and book below. Anything else?

[Julie]

Amazing.

[Podcast Host]

You want to close off with your.

[Julie]

No, it's been great. I appreciate getting to know you a bit.

[Podcast Host]

Thanks for the therapy session.

[Julie]

You're welcome. You're welcome.

[Podcast Host]

Amazing. We'll check her out, guys. If you need some couples advice, I'm sure you have a website, right?

[Julie]

Yeah, the securerelationship.com and then my Instagram is, is the Secure Relationship. At the Secure Relationship there are imposters. You kind of got to make sure that you're cool.

[Podcast Host]

We'll link it below. Thanks for coming on.

[Julie]

You're so welcome.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, check her out, guys. See you next time.