Lisa Ann: The Internet Destroyed Young Men... | DSH #2001

Summary

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Digital Social Hour | Lisa Ann: The Internet Destroyed Young Men… | DSH #2001

Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Lisa Ann
Date: June 5, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this candid episode, legendary adult film star and entrepreneur Lisa Ann returns after a 15-month hiatus from podcasting for an unfiltered discussion with host Sean Kelly. Lisa reflects on the evolution of the adult industry, the rise of the “manosphere,” and how the internet, social media, and content platforms like OnlyFans are reshaping sexuality, relationships, and young men’s sense of self. The conversation dives into the consequences of hyper-specific online desires, financial literacy, personal growth, and the shifting dynamics of fame and income in digital culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Impact of the Internet on Sex, Young Men, and Relationships

• Rise in Virginity Among Young Men

  • Lisa and Sean discuss the paradox that despite unprecedented access to explicit content, young adult virginity rates are at an all-time high.
    • Lisa Ann (12:02): "It doesn't take them closer to sex. It actually takes them further away from sex and adds years to them being virgins."
    • Lisa notes that seeing extreme content as a first sexual experience can traumatize and alienate, rather than empower, young viewers.
  • The shift from curiosity and intimacy in pre-internet generations to a transactional and isolating experience today is highlighted.

• Hyper-Specific Fetishization and Isolation

  • The adult industry has seen a surge in hyper-personalized content requests, fueled by management companies running creators’ pages.
    • Lisa Ann (19:38): "If you can only be turned on by a woman because she’s wearing white nail polish, that’s a big problem... That’s an incel trait."
  • Lisa connects this specificity to greater social isolation and the rise of inceldom, noting that many subscribers are both virgins and incels (18:38).

Notable Moments

• Facial Abuse Anecdote [03:36, 17:44]
  • Lisa shares a harrowing story about a performer detained at the airport due to injuries from a shoot, emphasizing the dangers of extreme content rising to the top in internet algorithms.

2. The Manosphere and Cultural Shifts

• Overcorrection to Woke Ideology

  • Lisa articulates that the manosphere’s resurgence is a response to years of enforced ‘wokeness’ and confusion around male identity.
    • Lisa Ann (09:17): “The manosphere to me is the overcorrection from the woke ideology... Young people have been put so much woke in their face that they're now afraid to be who they really are.”
  • She sees positive potential in encouraging male self-development but is concerned about glorified drug use and unhealthy depictions of masculinity.

• Media Manipulation and Self-Documentation

  • Discussion on how influencers like Clav and Myron (from Fresh & Fit) combat media misrepresentation by recording their interviews and exposing selective editing.
    • Lisa Ann (07:29): “What he's doing is showing us what fake news really is... he gets to back up that story with, nope, here's everything in between that they edited out.”
  • Lisa contrasts the systematic approach of the Tate brothers to Clav’s impulsiveness and party lifestyle.

Memorable Quote

• On Apologizing for Associations [10:26]
  • Lisa Ann: “But guy apologizing for saying hello to the Tates at UFC is also nuts... There was no ill intent there.”

3. The Business of Sex Work: Power, Exploitation, and Finances

• The Myth of Creator Empowerment

  • Despite rhetoric about creator control, the majority of top women on OnlyFans use management companies that take a massive financial cut and operate like old-school producers.
    • Lisa Ann (21:20): “I would probably say at least 75% of the girls [use management companies]... It's unempowering. If you have a male management company telling you what to do all day.”
  • Lisa highlights how this industry shift increases both user entitlement and creator burnout.

• Financial Illiteracy and the Pitfalls of Sudden Wealth

  • Lisa gives frank advice about the dangers of new money and poor planning, referencing public earnings disclosures from OnlyFans stars like Sophie Rain.
    • Lisa Ann (41:10): “To have a management company, you're actually only keeping about 30% of your money... After taxes, expenses, and your team, what do you got? You got 10 [million] out of a hundred.”
    • Lisa Ann (42:43): “Don’t tell me how much money you make. Tell me how much money you have.”
  • Stresses the importance of hiring reputable financial planners, separating income into out-of-sight accounts, and not buying depreciating “trophy” assets.

Memorable Advice

• On Walking Out with Dignity [08:33]
  • Lisa Ann: “Always have enough money to be able to walk off set. Always have enough money to be able to walk out of an interview. You need to know that if you are in a space you don't want to be in, that you've saved that money and you could do that.”

4. Generational Changes: From Pre-Internet to Today

• Pre-Internet vs. Post-Internet Attitudes

  • Lisa contrasts her own coming of age—emphasizing exploration and personal boundaries—with today’s content-creation era, where lines are blurred for both performers and viewers.
    • Lisa Ann (13:01): "When I got in the business in the 90s, the women actually all really loved sex. Like we were a curious group of women that wanted to do things that we could never do at home."
  • She laments the loss of the small, family-like environment of the old industry.

• Milestones in the Adult Industry & Changing Trends

  • The invention and rise of the “MILF” genre is traced back to keyword searches influenced by shows like Desperate Housewives (32:15–33:04).
  • Industry safety evolved slowly, with stark differences between US and European practices—Europe’s frequent testing and care for female performers is praised (25:42–28:19).
    • Lisa Ann: “In Europe, they test every day... They take it a lot more seriously than we do.”

5. Minimalism, Health, and Long-Term Happiness

• Pursuing Minimalism and True Wellbeing
  • Lisa shares her journey of deconstructing a materialistic lifestyle, downsizing her possessions and focusing on experiences over things.
    • Lisa Ann (56:09): “I took a two year span of really discovering minimalism... I wanted to take 75% of my life away. These were... I had to live in a bigger home because I had full closets.”
  • She critiques lifestyle inflation and mindless consumerism, encouraging millennials and Gen Zs to find satisfaction in less.
  • Lisa ties health and happiness to natural living, noting how the industry incentivized unhealthy weight and surgeries, but she now values well-being over vanity.

Notable Quotes on Minimalism

• (57:01) Lisa Ann: “We all go through that phase. And when you start getting rid of it, you're like, why did I buy this? Like, what did I do this for? The tag is still on this thing.”

6. What’s Next for Lisa Ann

• Lisa is writing her third book and experimenting with a mainstream, SFW page on “Subs” (a new platform by OnlyFans founder Tim Stokely).
• Excited about using AI for digital twins and webcamming, further reducing her need for traditional “work.”
• On retirement and freedom: (58:07) “My goal… was that by 50, I would never need to set an alarm clock again. … I want to be able to go to the gym at whatever time of the day I want to. Those are like little freedoms, but they're huge freedoms.”

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |---------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:36 | Extreme scenes, Facial Abuse story, rise in violence due to algorithm | | 09:17 | Lisa on manosphere as overcorrection to woke ideology | | 12:02 | Impact of porn access on young men, rising rates of virginity | | 17:44 | Algorithm surfacing extreme content and effects on first-time viewers | | 19:38 | Hyper-personalization, management companies, and isolation in OF industry | | 21:20 | Most OnlyFans creators don’t run their own pages, false empowerment | | 32:15 | The rise of the MILF genre, impact of search keywords and TV shows | | 41:10 | How management companies and taxes eat into creators’ income | | 42:43 | Advice: “Don’t tell me how much money you make. Tell me how much you have.” | | 56:09 | Lisa’s journey into minimalism and downsizing possessions | | 58:07 | Embracing health, freedom from alarms, and the next phase of life |

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Notable Quotes

• On hyper-specificity and incel culture:
  “If you can only be turned on by a woman because she’s wearing white nail polish, that’s a big problem... That’s an incel trait.” – Lisa Ann (19:38)

• On internet’s impact on sexuality:
  “It doesn’t take them closer to sex. It actually takes them further away from sex and adds years to them being virgins.” – Lisa Ann (12:02)

• On content management companies:
  “It's unempowering. If you have a male management company telling you what to do all day, it's not your page. You're just working just like we were way back in the day.” – Lisa Ann (21:20)

• On financial wisdom:
  “Don’t tell me how much money you make. Tell me how much money you have.” – Lisa Ann (42:43)

• On why minimalism matters:
  “When you start getting rid of it, you're like, why did I buy this? Like, what did I do this for? The tag is still on this thing.” – Lisa Ann (57:01)

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Tone & Language

Lisa Ann is frank, direct, and often humorous, seamlessly shifting from compassionate mentor to fierce critic. She emphasizes self-control, critical thinking, and personal responsibility, refusing to play into victim narratives. Sean Kelly provides an open, occasionally playful interviewing style that complements Lisa’s insight and honesty.

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Summary

This episode is a deep dive into the unintended consequences of digital culture on sexual development, the shifting power dynamics in the adult entertainment business, and hard-won advice on money and personal happiness. Lisa Ann offers a rare, wise, and unsparing look at what’s really happening behind the gloss of OnlyFans and influencer fame. Those interested in new forms of masculinity, the pitfalls of creator culture, or simply wanting seasoned life advice will find it essential listening.

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Transcript

[Sean Kelly]

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[Lisa]

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[Lisa]

that want to watch that girl getting choked. There used to be a site called Facial Abuse. There was a girl that was flying home from doing Facial Abuse. I did not book it. This was before she was with me. But she ended up reaching out to me because the police at the airport detained her.

[Podcast Host]

What?

[Lisa]

Because her face was so beat up from the scene.

[Podcast Host]

Holy crap.

[Lisa]

And they didn't want to let her fly and they wanted to find out what happened. When the management companies came in, it really changed the dynamic of the customer need to become that specific. These guys are isolating themselves even more. If you can only be turned on by a woman because she's wearing white nail polish, that's a big problem.

[Podcast Host]

Okay guys, special guest. She has not been on a show in 15 months. We got Lisa and here today. Thanks for coming.

[Lisa]

Great to be here with you. I wanted to interview with you for quite some time and I just took a little time to step back from being so much of adding to the noise and I really observed the noise. So I got to take 15 months to see what everybody else was doing.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's a whole new world now, right?

[Lisa]

Oh my gosh. First of all, I mean I'M glad that Clav is okay, because obviously I've fallen down that rabbit hole. I mean, I'm deep in the manosphere right now. Super deep. Just learning everything about it.

[Podcast Host]

Clav's the guy. He got 2.2 billion views last month, which is crazy. Like, he is. He's the next Tate. That's what Tate was getting during his pe.

[Lisa]

You know, he is and he isn't. You know, when you look at the Tate brothers, they've done things with a much more systematic approach, whereas he's just, like, all at once. I think his lack of being able to wait for some delayed gratification is going to catch up with him. Tate brothers aren't doing a bunch of drugs.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Lisa]

You know, they're not out in that party scene. They're not. They're just doing their thing very differently. But I'm sure you saw Guy from Triple D's Diners. He had to make an apology yesterday because he dapped up with the Tate brothers at USC last weekend. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, I didn't even see that.

[Lisa]

Which to me, as soon as I saw it happen live, I thought to myself, oh, yeah, he's gonna need to apologize for this. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with people having to apologize for living their lives. We're supposed to live in a free space. We're supposed to be ourselves. And you don't have to like everything about somebody. You don't have to like all their friends. You don't have to like all their opinions, but to just not like them over one thing you don't like. And I also think people are very misinformed about the Tate brothers in general, and they lack complete information about the Manosphere.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. I mean, that Manosphere documentary, did you watch it?

[Lisa]

Of course I did.

[Podcast Host]

That was an interesting watch because I've had two of those guys on the show, so I know how they are, and I feel like they were portrayed in a. In a certain way.

[Lisa]

You know, I thought the interviewer himself had a very cautious approach to stirring up the pot. Right. Like Myron and his girlfriend. Like that scene right there, I was like, oh, this is going to play out very differently. Which it did. But him sitting in that room during the Whatever podcast gave me a different insight of it. Instead of feeling so bad for the girls, every time I see a clip come on my feed, I realize, oh, they're doing this by choice because they also want the clicks. And it's a weird space. I'm kind of in this limbo. Of somebody who turns 54 in May. So I was born in 1972. So the two lives that I've gotten to be a part of are the pre Internet, the post Internet. And so for me, I have to sometimes take a little bit more time. Time to understand why would a girl expose herself like that? And I'm like, oh, they want the traffic. Like, I'd rather have less traffic than do things that would make me horribly uncomfortable.

[Podcast Host]

Right. That's why a lot of them go on those manosphere podcasts and get yelled at. Or. Yeah, you know, berated, belittled.

[Lisa]

And then they're gonna make money on their of or whatever. Either a guy's gonna feel bad for him or a guy's gonna do. It's. It's a strange space, but again, I don't have to like or dislike it. I just learning about it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Yeah. Myron was smart. He actually recorded everything. I don't know if you saw this. And he's been exposing the real footage because with a documentary, they're going to cut some stuff out, make you look a certain way.

[Lisa]

And that's the smart thing about clap. He keeps his cameras going no matter what. People don't know it or they don't like it, but it doesn't matter. What he's doing is showing us what fake news really is. Because if we get to see the whole interview and they only show the parts where he looks the worst, then he gets to back up that story with, nope, here's everything in between that they edited out.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah. He recorded the whole Piers Morgan episode.

[Lisa]

Yes, he did.

[Podcast Host]

I think the 60 minutes one.

[Lisa]

Yep.

[Podcast Host]

Where he walked out. He's walked out on a few interviews,

[Lisa]

and I respect it. This is his choice. This is where he gets to a level of, hey, I don't want to say something completely disrespectful to you. I don't think we're going to have a good flow. And time is money.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Lisa]

Why am I going to waste my time being tormented? He doesn't need clicks like the girls that are going on the whatever podcast makes. He needs to keep staying busy and doing his thing, for sure.

[Podcast Host]

Have you ever walked out on an interview?

[Lisa]

Many.

[Podcast Host]

Really?

[Lisa]

Oh, yeah. I've also walked out on set.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Lisa]

I've walked off set. You know, I always would tell young girls in the industry, when you're first getting in, like, first of all, the most important thing we can all do is save our money. Right. Earning money is great. Flashing how much money you make is great. But if you're not saving it, at the end of the day, none of it matters.

[Podcast Host]

True.

[Lisa]

We've seen this with athletes, we've seen it with celebrities, boxers gone through millions on millions of dollars. But I would tell younger people getting in this space like, hey, always have enough money to be able to walk off set. Always have enough money to be able to walk out of an interview. You need to know that if you are in a space you don't want to be in, that you've saved that money and you could do that. So, yeah, I've done it.

[Podcast Host]

It's good advice because it gives you the. The high ground almost. Right. You don't need them.

[Lisa]

Exactly. And when somebody is only starting to badger at you and you know this isn't going to bring. You're not going to share these clips. You're not going to be proud like I am them on your podcast. You're going to be horrified for the next couple of months of listening to what people have to say on the Internet, for sure.

[Podcast Host]

So, overall, with Clavicular, do you think he's a good influence for young men?

[Lisa]

I worry a bit about the drug use and the conversations about the drug use, the pushing of I need to be. I need to look like a man right away. We know that it takes young men a long time to develop, and that's why, you know, men get better looking as they get older. Not always the case for women, but for men it is. And so I feel like that concerns me a bit. But. But the manosphere to me is the overcorrection from the woke ideology that everybody was being forced for so many years. I read an interview the other day with Melissa Etheridge, and she has some boys, and one of her boys came to apologize to her that he's straight. And I thought, wow, we're living in this space right now where young people have been put so much woke in their face that they're now afraid to be who they really are and not to blend in with some sort of criteria that I was clickbait or talk about. And so when you think about it that way, in a sense, he can be a good influence. But I worry about the drug use, the, the. The things that he's putting in his body injectables, those things and wondering how they really impact a man of his age.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I agree. Apologizing for being straight is nuts.

[Lisa]

Nuts.

[Podcast Host]

I can't believe that.

[Lisa]

But guy apologizing for saying hello to the Tates at UFC is also nuts. Yeah, that's it's. Nuts. This man never. He has a great reputation. He's never done anything to anybody. What, he can't say hello to somebody at a big event? And when you're at a big event and people start saying hi, you say hi back whether you know them or not. Yes, yes. There was no ill intent there.

[Podcast Host]

That happened when he came, because he came on my show, Andrew Tate, and then someone at Power Stop said hi to him and same thing happened like a year ago. It's just bad guy had to apologize.

[Lisa]

I will tell you, there's more times that I say, you know, I do run and manage my Only Fans account, right. So I use it as a library. I was smart and I created a lot of my own content. I made a lot of my own movies and a lot of deals that I made with companies was, hey, you can have the VOD and the video rights, but I get the Internet rights. So that allowed me to have a thriving website when websites were first starting. And at that time, you know, you paid your webmaster 50. So when of came about and I'm like, I can do this myself and keep 80, I'll do it right. I tell so many members in the dm, like, you need the Tate Brothers in your life. I'm just like, ask me a bunch of weird things. I'm like, that's hilarious. First of all, I'm not the person to give you this advice. You need some male dominance in your life. You need to look up the Tate brothers. You need them in your life. And a lot of people will freak out hearing me say that. But if a young kid is sending messages to 100 people a day because he wants to lose his virginity, and I have to tell him, like, this isn't how you're going to lose your virginity. You can't just message strangers to expect them to help you through this process. So you need to learn how to be a man.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. And speaking of virginity, I looked up the stats on that before this episode. Really high. I think it's almost at an all time high for the number of virgins

[Lisa]

in America, which is mind blowing because everyone wanted access to on their phone and thinking it was going to be the right thing. No one in the industry ever created scenes with the hopes that anybody under 18 years old would watch them. We knew 18 was the year, the age, kind of like drinking, buying cigarettes, the same things. Government regulated industry. Now when you allow your kid to have a phone, your kid's 10, and they're curious and they find something, they're on a gaming device and pop ups are coming up. They're going to go there. Where does that take them? It doesn't take them closer to sex. It actually takes them further away from sex and adds years to them being virgins. And now you flip the script and there's creators on these platforms that are also virgins and they're bragging about being virgins. I have nothing against people choosing to be a virgin. If you're saving yourself for your special partner, that's great. But I can't imagine a young person is on of to stay a virgin.

[Podcast Host]

No.

[Lisa]

And I don't know why the women want to be selling something that they don't love. Because when I got in the business in the 90s, the women actually all really loved sex. Like we were a curious group of women that wanted to do things that we could never do at home. Because how are you going to organize seven people to come over at one time that you trust that aren't going to rob you? You want to have a gang bang? Okay, great. I can do this on set and it's a safe place and everyone's tested and you know, we get in this small family of it. But how does the virgin market to the virgin? And why is the flex for the female creator?

[Sean Kelly]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Lisa]

you're choosing to save yourself, but why is the flex that I'm a virgin. But you're in the sex trade business. Even if you're not selling sex, you're still in that space. And why is it a flex? There's nothing wrong with sex. Why are we getting away from the fact that I, you know, growing up in the, in the early 70s and not too far from the love of the 60s, of how it was just a free thing and it was how you communicated in a sense. And it was a way to party and be at a concert and meet up with somebody and it was special and it was fun. Like they're missing out. You're missing out on being in a car and making out with a guy and having him put his hand up your shirt for like three weeks. You know, every Friday night you're missing out on that excitement because now you can see somebody else doing it. You know, Tate himself said that watching is really just being a cuck. Right. And I, I, I shared that clip with all my friends because I was like, this is the funniest thing I've ever heard. So now when guys come in and say, do you have any cuck videos? I'm like, well don't worry about it because you're already cucking by watching. That's my answer in the dm. So it's a space. And how is the virgin selling to the virgin? And how are we trapping sexual trauma? By not being aware enough to know that if a young person sees something that's so extreme for their first scenes. Because remember, if you go to a tube site, the algorithm is going to show them the most popular scenes. The most popular scenes on that algorithm are the scenes that are the least shot. They're the most violent, the most aggressive because maybe there's a hundred of them and there's a million of the others. So of course those people that want to watch that girl getting choked. There used to be a site called Facial Abuse and that site was Girls would. I had a, I had an agency for about four years in the industry and there was a girl that was flying home from doing Facial Abuse. I did not book it. This was before she was with me. But she ended up reaching out to me because the police at the airport detained her.

[Podcast Host]

What?

[Lisa]

Because her face was so beat up from the scene.

[Podcast Host]

Holy crap.

[Lisa]

And they didn't want to let her fly and they wanted to find out what happened. And so those are the scenes that surface to the top due to the algo on tube sites. And when you have young people watching that for their first interaction, that is traumatic and it's, and it's causing something like, oh, I can't do that. I'm never going to be that man. I'm never going to be good enough. And like think about the insecurity that that's building. And then you become the 30 year old virgin asking random chicks on the Internet to have sex with you. Yeah, sad.

[Podcast Host]

That sounds sad.

[Lisa]

Sounds sad. And why is it a flex to not have sex? Sex is great.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. And I agree with you. If it's for religious reasons I can, I could get into it. But if not, like you should be trying to have sex.

[Lisa]

Yeah, agree. You know, especially if you're already selling it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. 30's weight.

[Lisa]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

If you had to guess what percentage of the of subscribers that message you are virgins or incels, what do you think it'd be?

[Lisa]

Combo Virgins INCEL at least 50 wow. At least another thing that's really changed the game. You know, when of when I started my page in 2017, I was like, this is so cool. It's like a Twitter. But we could put like all of our here and I would do behind the scenes on set of me like producing and cleaning the location up afterwards. All this fun stuff. And it was really engaging. And then the management companies came in. I've never let anyone in my page and I don't let anyone in my DMs on any pages. I just feel like if somebody thinks they're talking to me, they should either talk to me or I should just not answer. When the management companies came in, it really changed the dynamic of the customer need. It became a almost Burger King. If I may like, have it your way. New member comes in. They don't say hello, how are you? They all they say is, do you have scenes with white nail polish on? Do you have scenes with your hair in a ponytail? Do you have this? Because it's become that specific. Because the management companies have people 247 that will go into the hard drive and Google and search it and be like, yes, here's a ponytail scene. We'll sell it to you for $30. Your need is met. And it's created a niche where these guys are isolating themselves even more. If you can only be turned on by a woman because she's wearing white nail polish, that's a big problem. You don't see the woman herself as beautiful. You don't like her curves, her hair, something about her smile. None of that. It's about your obsession with it. That that's when it gets super dark. That's an incel trade.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Lisa]

So it's created more incels because of this need. And it's made it much harder for independent creators to run their page because when you're sleeping, they're answering messages 24 7. You can't be doing that as a person. I have a digital twin, so I use my AI. That's my way of saying, hey, I'm sleeping. So if you want to chat, go chat with my digital twin at O Chat and she will make you new photos. She will chat with you. If they chat with me in the dm and it's a little bit more because I don't set. I've never sexted. I don't want to sex with a stranger. That's just weird. You know, when I got in the business, we shot beautiful scenes and people just like to watch them. Now there's these expectations where it's like, no, I watch your scene. I like it. I should be able to have you do 10 more things for me. And if you don't want to do those 10 things for me, I will charge back on your page. Like, they're nasty. Nasty. And so they'd rather be sold by these management companies who are now the behind the scenes, which is no different than a producer director on an adult set. What's the difference? The. The words of. Oh, these platforms are so empowering. I get to do the. It's unempowering. If you have a male management company telling you what to do all day.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Lisa]

It's not your page. You're just working just like we were way back in the day.

[Podcast Host]

Yup. And a lot of these top girls have management companies, right?

[Lisa]

I would probably say at least 75% of the girls.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Lisa]

Yep. That's very few. And the couple girls that run their own pages, they're always putting it out there on social media. Like, it is impossible to run your own page because of the demands that are being met by pages run by management companies.

[Podcast Host]

I did not know all that was going on.

[Lisa]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Lisa]

Makes it very different and also creates something different. Like you're now I'm now Miss Manners. A guy comes in, he starts demanding stuff. I say, hey, this page is probably not for you, but let me ask you, why didn't you say, hello, how are you? Or why didn't you say, hello, how was your day today? Like, I'm just teaching you some niceties that are actually going to be very helpful for your future life. Well, they'll write back. I thought I was talking to a management company. I'm like, so you're okay talking to a management company? That's what you're telling me? All the pages are, right? I'm like, no, there's those of us here that run our own page.

[Podcast Host]

It's become so common now. They just. They're talking to a guy in India.

[Lisa]

So common, right? Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

That's what they do.

[Lisa]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

They hire cheap labor in India or Pakistan or.

[Lisa]

And those people are going through a lot of emotional distress and that's why they don't want to hire him. The US because in the US they could see sue you later on for the emotional distress caused by answering your messages.

[Podcast Host]

I did not know that.

[Lisa]

Think about it. People say weird in there.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I bet.

[Lisa]

Really weird.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. You're allowed to send photos in there too, right?

[Lisa]

I don't open photos. And my legal team has told me. Look, don't open photos because you don't have the IDs or the full name of this person that has this page. And you don't know if they're sending photos of somebody else. You also don't know if that person is above 18. So I just sent out, when I get a photo, I said, I'm sorry, legally, I can't open photos. I don't have enough of your backstory to know if this is actually you. And also don't want to look at these photos.

[Podcast Host]

That makes sense. So you started the of in 17, right?

[Lisa]

2017. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And you retired from 14?

[Lisa]

I did, but then I came back for a quick stint, which I wrote about my second book. I came back for like a year year and a couple of months stint. When I retired in 2014, I went through a really nasty lawsuit, and it had many layers, and it took a great deal away from what I had as my number that I needed to lead the industry.

[Podcast Host]

That's what lawsuits do.

[Lisa]

And so learned a lot about lawyers.

[Podcast Host]

Same.

[Lisa]

Okay. I've been married and divorced, and it wasn't that difficult. We went to a mediator. Okay. Like, I was not about to pay for the lawyer, but I learned a lot. But so what I decided to do is I sat with myself and I said, you're going to go back in the business until you make that exact number. And then when you make that money back and it's back your savings, then you can leave again. And that's what I did.

[Podcast Host]

Got it.

[Lisa]

And I worked every single day. If I wasn't shooting during the day, I was webcaming at night. I was doing both. I was doing it because I just want to max. I was just grinding it out because I always had a goal, and I always knew that I would end my life very differently than the years that I lived. I looked at my body like an athlete. I knew that I was going to be my most popular when I was my least healthy. So when I was the heaviest, really, because you want to fit into the big butt category. You want to have the biggest boobs, you want to fit in the big boob category, then you're getting your lips done. You're doing all the things that are being placed into this space where it's like this director's like, oh, you're getting too thin. You should probably do this. Oh, this. So I knew that I was going to take some years to unravel from that. And just last March 2025 was the last step for me. Where I had my implants removed, and for the first time Since I was 18, I'm living in my natural body, which is awesome. And I knew I was going to unwind this way, and I just knew it was going to take time.

[Podcast Host]

That's beautiful. I always saw health and beauty kind

[Lisa]

of aligned personally, but a lot of people don't.

[Podcast Host]

That's so weird to me.

[Lisa]

Like, I get more complaints about what I look like now than anything. And it's okay because I understand people. Men are like, oh, you looked so much better when you were thicker. You looked bigger when you had bigger butt. Oh, you look like you're on the Ozempic now. It's like, no, I'm just living healthy now. And when you're in the industry, you also medicate a lot. And when you medicate a lot, you get inflamed for medication. So you also have inflammation that you're always carrying.

[Podcast Host]

That's not good.

[Lisa]

No, none of that's good.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Lisa]

But it was worth it because I, you know, I had a very fun life in the industry. I traveled the world. I shot scenes in all different countries. I met people who didn't speak English, that we all just came together on a set and did this thing. I had dinners all the way around the world with all different types of. Of people where I got to learn just a little bit about their lives. And I wouldn't change it for the world.

[Podcast Host]

That's beautiful. Traveling is one of the best things you could do.

[Lisa]

I agree. In my opinion, it opens your mind to so much.

[Podcast Host]

A lot.

[Lisa]

It really does. Ben, your first time, you go overseas, you shoot scenes, you come back, you kiss the dirty floor at LAX. Because being an American star versus, they'll go on set for a flat rate of $300. Now, mind you, $300 is more than their family's making in a month. If you're living in back then 10, 20 years ago, like, Budapest, Hungary, all over, you know, so to them, and they don't know what they're doing. They don't know who they're working with, how many scenes. But in Europe, they test every day.

[Podcast Host]

That's a lot.

[Lisa]

Every day they do their. Their STD test. They do them in the morning. The companies pay for them. By the time they get the train to set and they're in the makeup chair, the results are back.

[Podcast Host]

Geez.

[Lisa]

They take it a lot more seriously than we do in their. In the health aspect of it.

[Podcast Host]

This year, it's two weeks, right?

[Lisa]

Yeah. And when I started, it was three months. Whoa, 90 every 90 days. But there weren't as many people in the talent pool either. You know, there was, like, 20 popular girls and, like, 10 or 15 popular guys, so it wasn't as much. But we did have the Mark Wallace situation, if you've ever seen the movie, which is a great movie I tell everyone to watch, but that made me get out of the business for five years.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, really?

[Lisa]

We had six HIV positives in a matter of two months.

[Podcast Host]

My gosh.

[Lisa]

And in my mind, I knew there had to be one guy that was positive and knew it. And he was white outing and Kinko copying his test. And so we had this huge meeting at a warehouse, which is covered in this movie. And I remember sitting there, a couple hundred people, and everybody's getting up and talking about it. I'm thinking, like, I can't trust my health for the rest of my life with this. So I'm just gonna go out on the road to feature dance until I can figure this out. And then the Internet happened, and then we were able to have tests online. So you were no longer, you know, trusting a piece of paper that could have been doctored.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Lisa]

Because that's all they had. And guys would fold it up and put in their pocket, and they'd bring it out. You could read anything, and you just hope for the best.

[Podcast Host]

Well, now it's probably crazy with AI. I'm sure people are faking it.

[Lisa]

You know what? You're probably right. You're probably right. I was in and out before that, so. But you're probably. It was great to be able to log in and just see a green dot or a red dot. And red dot could be they had a bad test or they just haven't tested. So it didn't mean there was a. But green was you can go. And I was like, okay, this makes me feel a lot better.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Wow. Europe's every day. They don't mess around out there every day.

[Lisa]

You know what else is neat? The women there dressed pretty to go to set every day. And I found that to be so amazing. They'd come in in jeans, a belt, a little necklace, a watch, and every day, they would take off their nail polish and the makeup artist would repaint their nails before they got their makeup done every day. And I was like, man, the attention to DG layers, like, it's really sexy.

[Podcast Host]

So they're respected out there.

[Lisa]

And when I watch. You can only watch European.

[Podcast Host]

Really?

[Lisa]

I watch Mark Dorsell. He's my favorite director. Also. I don't Know any of the people, so that kind of helps.

[Podcast Host]

I couldn't name a European person.

[Lisa]

Right. The. I look at the women so differently. Cause I'm like, I remember how pretty they look. When you see girls show up for set in the US it's kind of like how people travel. Pajamas, Uggs slides. Like, you're like, it's not hot. And when you'd see these girls come on, you're like, oh, I cannot wait to have sex with her. She's actually.

[Podcast Host]

That's funny.

[Lisa]

Beautiful. And it was just neat. It was just a different. Like, they just treated it very differently. Very differently.

[Podcast Host]

I did go to Amsterdam. I went to the red light district out there. Just walked around.

[Lisa]

Beautiful.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Lisa]

Fun, right?

[Podcast Host]

They were definitely attractive.

[Lisa]

Not as many tattoos. I don't know if it's changed since last time I was there. Also all pretty in their own way. Girl has curly hair with big eyebrows. Yeah, they're rocking it. Variety.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, variety.

[Lisa]

Instead of everybody either looking like a Kardashian or like something out, like, they all look different. Every window, you're like, man, this girl's got long legs, you know? Swedish girl, blonde hair, blue eyes. Then you go to the next girl. But it's pretty awesome.

[Podcast Host]

I've had NBA players talk about this because they used to love traveling to different cities back in the day, because every city had a union, unique girl.

[Lisa]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

But now with the whole Kardashian era, they all look the same.

[Lisa]

All look the same, you know?

[Podcast Host]

Isn't that crazy?

[Lisa]

It is crazy that we've done this blueprint. And it's mainly in the bigger areas. La, maybe Vegas, Miami, New York City. But when you still travel through the US you could find some little pockets. But it's Europe. Every girl looks different.

[Podcast Host]

They got personality over there.

[Lisa]

Yeah. And they also rock with more real features. They don't do their lips as big, they don't do their boobs as big. You know, they don't do any of that stuff.

[Podcast Host]

Did you ever feel pressured to look a certain way?

[Lisa]

Always.

[Podcast Host]

Like with surgeries and always.

[Lisa]

I was constantly pressured to look a certain way to maximize the amount of money. To know what was the most important thing to people right now, what series were selling the best. Because I owned a lot of my content, and then I went back and bought content from companies that were folding. When the Internet happened, they were just like, ah, we're gonna get in the toy space. Fuck it. And I was like, can I buy back my paperwork and scenes from you so I can use them on my website? So I bought about 100 scenes back as well. I was always hustling. But if the big boo genre was. The big boob genre was the biggest thing. That was when I'm like, okay, I'll go. I'll go get my implants done again. I'll go a little bigger. I could make more money on the road. More people will want to take photos with me. Like, there is that pressure. And I think it's important to have an end date on that and know that, like, okay, when you hit 50 years old, you're just going to enjoy your life as you want to. Like, I'm living now, but it is always pressure. When I first. First got in the business, I wanted a contract, which I did get before I shot my first scene. And at the time, there were really no brunette contract girls.

[Podcast Host]

Really, it was all blonde.

[Lisa]

And every company was like, will you dye your hair? I'm like, I can't keep up with that. Like, no, I don't want to. I'm Italian. We don't dye our hair.

[Podcast Host]

You'll get implants, but you won't dye your hair.

[Lisa]

Because the implants, at least they're in for 10 years. The hair. You got to find somebody, and you got to do it all the time. You got to go back on the road. You're gonna have to go to some random. Also, it kills your hair.

[Podcast Host]

It's bad for your hair.

[Lisa]

It's bad for your hair. And so I remember it being such a big deal. I mean, I had to go through it with Larry Flynt to put me on the COVID of A Hustler. And it was all blondes at that time. And we did a Christmas 1995. It was either 94 or 95 edition, but I'm standing over a snowman with this carrot almost going. It was the most heinous idea. And he was like, well, you're the one that wanted to be on the COVID You gotta do it. And I was like, all right. I always loved Larry. And so anything he wanted to do, I'd do. But I was always pushing the envelope for Burnet.

[Podcast Host]

Well, you paved the road, it looks like.

[Lisa]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

You know, you were the first brunette, it sounds like.

[Lisa]

Not the first, but just the first to stick with it, you know, and just say, I just want to make. Because I knew it would be an empty space. Yeah, I knew that there would be

[Podcast Host]

a big market now.

[Lisa]

Not as much competition at that time.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Lisa]

If every girl was willing to go blonde and I wasn't, then I get to be the one brunette?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. At that time, how often were the trends changing? Like, do you have to be a doctor?

[Lisa]

It didn't change much until the Internet. And then it became about keywords and it became so easy to see what are people typing in for their keywords? What are they looking for? I mean, that's how really MILF became a phenomenon. It was a keyword. And MILF became a phenomenon as a keyword because the, the show, Desperate Housewives, if you remember that show.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, my parents watched it.

[Lisa]

Yeah, you were young.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Lisa]

Yeah. But that was the first time we saw this, like, oh, she's gonna be with the gardener. Like, this married woman's gonna be with the gardener. This is hot. And then it came about and, and it was before milf. We would all kind of talk on set. All of us in our 20s, we were like, where do we go in our 30s? Like, we had no idea. Like, do we have to go to the Bunny Ranch? Like, is there any work for us in our 30s? There was no genre yet for older girls.

[Podcast Host]

Wow. So it kind of formed along the way.

[Lisa]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And now milf, I feel like, is one of the best.

[Lisa]

I agree. I, I think the MILF is very popular because people know this is by choice. She's a bit older, she's doing this because she wants to. And what I've found out from my male friends is as they've gotten older and had families and had kids, they have a harder time watching younger girls because they're like, I'm not so sure she knows what's up yet. I'm not sure. Whereas the 40 year old woman with the great lingerie, that's usually the dominant role in the scene as well, because she's with a younger guy, they feel a little less guilt with that experience.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah. That turns them on, I bet.

[Lisa]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. That's important, right?

[Lisa]

I, I think so. And I think we're, you know, we're trying to be aware. Is this girl okay with this scene? I've watched scenes where I'd be like, man, I don't know if that girl should know that scene.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, they weren't ready.

[Lisa]

Not ready at all. I think she's gonna regret this, you know?

[Podcast Host]

Have you ever felt like that you were like, damn, I don't know if I'm ready for this scene?

[Lisa]

No. Because I didn't do anything before I had experienced it in my real life.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, okay.

[Lisa]

So I kind of gauged things like, I'm one of the girls that didn't do anal until her 30s, and that was my personal life as well. So I wasn't gonna do it on set for an extra 200 bucks and have my life experience be. That was my first time. I wanted to actually sexually go into that space in my mind. I wanted to want that. I wanted to desire that. And then I wanted to portray that desire in this scene that I'm enjoying so other people can enjoy. I think we made it too much about now. A girl gets in the industry, she does everything right off the jump. And I'm like, are you sure?

[Podcast Host]

That's wild.

[Lisa]

I worked at an agency before. I had my own. And he had this checklist, and the girls would sit in there and they'd be like, checking the boxes. And I would say, do you know what that even means? And they'd be like, no, but, you know, I really want to get in the business. I'm like, yeah, I don't really know if you want to do a dp. It's double penetration. Like, do you know what the. Like, where. I'm like, let me tell you. Okay. Do you know what that is? No, I don't. Like, go home, watch tape, think about it like a coach, watch some film, and then come back and fill out this form properly.

[Podcast Host]

And most of them probably uncheck it after that.

[Lisa]

No, they still left it checked because they just wanted to get in the every. That was an era of everyone seeing Jenna Jameson and thinking they wanted to be Jenna Jameson if that was a crossroads for the industry in a big way.

[Podcast Host]

She was like the. The goat or.

[Lisa]

She was well publicized. She was with Wicked. She was the first contract girl that they had wrapped on buses out here in Vegas for avn. Her promo was incredible. She was in the Howard Stern movie. She had a huge role. She had a lot of TV space. So what they got her to make her name so well known was what these young girls were chasing. But these young girls never watched her scenes. Jenna didn't do any big scenes back then. If you were a contract girl, you couldn't do anal. You didn't do DPs. That was somebody else's job. I called them. You're a sports person. I always called them the Closers because they would come in and do those scenes and, you know, like, the Closer in baseball. So I'm like, oh, yeah, Closers are gonna come in. We don't do those scenes.

[Podcast Host]

Oh. So they would come in and, like,

[Lisa]

that would be their role.

[Podcast Host]

Be that girl.

[Lisa]

Or they wouldn't pretend. It was just. That was. We would just Be doing the vanilla scenes. Because before the Internet, these companies made most of their money selling the scenes to cable and to VOD and to different countries. And so in different countries, there was in the beginning, you couldn't even show penetration.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Lisa]

If you wanted to sell this on broadcast to hotels, which was at one time a very big bit of money for the adult industry, you had to do things from the side. You had to be very vanilla. So the extra scenes that they would put into the movies, they wouldn't always use in the edit that they were going to sell. So they would put that in for when it hit the stores and when it was, oh, there's a bonus scene or, oh, there's something. But it was never the contract girl that they wanted to sell to vod.

[Podcast Host]

Got it. So are these companies struggling now because of, like the power shifted to the creator?

[Lisa]

I don't think so much. You know, I think the companies really shifted way before of, you know, when Minegeek was a thing, when Manwin was a thing, you know, brazzers, before they transitioned to new owners and this and that. They were the tube site, so they hurt the industry more than anybody. Hurt the industry because the tube sites were based out of Montreal. All just like Browser's Mind Geek Man 1 was. And with them stealing all the content from smaller companies, they ended up silently buying 80% of the industry. And though these companies still kept the names like Digital Playground, like Wicked, they're not owned by Digital Playground, they're owned by Manwin mindgeek. So they're owned by. So they slowly and quietly went and just acquired 80% of the business.

[Podcast Host]

Got it. Yeah. I saw that documentary years ago about this, I think.

[Lisa]

Yep.

[Podcast Host]

Right. Yeah, I'm sure you watch that.

[Lisa]

Of course. I always like to be in the know.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Yeah, you're good at that.

[Lisa]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host]

You know, it's impressive. I think that's why you stay relevant over. Over time, though. I appreciate that you're like constantly, like, you even knew Clavicular and Tate and all that.

[Lisa]

I feel it's really important to know what every generation is doing and to know what people are talking about and to see where you can find some little bits of information that are helpful. Like me telling a person, like, you need some today brothers in your life. Like me understanding that the manosphere is just a direct correlation between the over correct weakness and men trying to be more masculine again.

[Podcast Host]

Yes. You're in favor of it overall, right?

[Lisa]

I am. I think there's some extremes, but there's extremes with every girl being an Olaf girl too. Right. Because now these young men are having a harder time dating than ever. Because for the first time ever, the girl can make more money having fake sex with people online through their pages. So why are they gonna go on dates? And it's sad for young men because that used to be a cool age. Now I remember being young, you're both kind of broke. You go out for a beer bucket special, you have a great time. You do little things. The girl's not going to do that. She could be home on her O app, she'd be webcamming, she'd be making money. Now she's making more money than the guy's making now. It's even harder for the guy to ask her out. When you're equally broke, you have this neutral like, hey, we're.

[Podcast Host]

There's a chance.

[Lisa]

Yeah, we're all kind of just struggling around. Or girls used to go out so guys would buy them drinks. Girls don't need to do that anymore. They can go on Venmo and hit up on their social media, Hey, I want to go out with my friends. Send me money. And guys do it.

[Podcast Host]

Bars and clubs are dying right now. 54% of people are sober in America now.

[Lisa]

I'm purely sober.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. It's crazy. Like, it's, it's, it's a new era. Like, people aren't going out like that.

[Lisa]

It's a new era. And I also think for younger people, financially, places started to get so aggressive of what they were charging for drinks that people are like, hey, let's just get a couple drinks at home.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Lisa]

Or let's just hang out. But I don't think this is going to be as much of a drinking generation coming up. And look, this is the same thing cigarette companies got into 20 years ago. If you watch series like Mad Men, everyone was smoking everywhere. Okay. Elevators, cars, airplanes everywhere. And now that's really a thing of the past. You go into the mgm. Is it the MGM grand where they. It's a smoke free park. MGM is a smoke free casino.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Lisa]

And you go in there, it smells so fresh. It's like. And they. And they thought that was gonna be a problem. It's packed because people don't want their clothes to smell, their hair to smell. So I think what we're seeing in the alcohol space is very similar to what the tobacco space went through 20 some years ago.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Lisa]

And they're going to have to find a different way to market it. Maybe it's going to be a Fine dining thing, maybe, but young people don't have that expendable income to go out and drop 100 bucks on drinks.

[Podcast Host]

I agree. I wonder where they'll transition to.

[Lisa]

Yeah, who knows? I mean, somebody's spending money on of that. They could be spending money on drinks.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, well, for sure.

[Lisa]

So if you think about guys staying home alone, they're also not out buying drinks for women. That's a big part of it too. If you see these numbers of what these creators are making, you think to yourself, who are these men and where do they live and how many of them are spending money hand over fist?

[Podcast Host]

It blows my mind when I see these numbers.

[Lisa]

Mind blowing.

[Podcast Host]

Sophie Rain. And there's a few others now I'd

[Lisa]

be curious to know. When you look at that hundred million, we know the site gets 20, which is a very cheap cost to pay for a platform that manages everything they manage. You think about Shopify and what they charge. If you're running a store on Shopify, they have back end work to do. They have chargebacks, they have all this. But the management companies take 50 off the top number. So, you know, not the 80.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, really?

[Lisa]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Lisa]

So now to have a management company, you're actually only keeping about 30% of your money money. So it's great to brag about how much you actually made, but I think the flex that people are flexing is lack of education, of sharing with young people. If you're going to get involved in this, you're going to have a management company and you make a hundred, you're actually only going to keep 30. And then after taxes, expenses, and by the way, you got to pay your clippers, your team. What do you got? You got 10, 10 million out of a hundred. Now where's the time where you couldn't be managing your own page? Is it lazy? Because I'm a busy woman, I still get to manage my page. Like I don't do as much as everybody else. But if you reeled it back and didn't pay somebody all that money and just did it yourself, think about how much more money you'd have.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, you're right. She just went on the Iced Coffee Hour podcast and she revealed her bank account. She has about 5 million.

[Lisa]

And that's. I'm sorry, but that's not much money.

[Podcast Host]

Not after making a hundred.

[Lisa]

It's not much money. And also if you're gonna buy cars and things at that age, we've seen athletes do this like all the time. Young people coming into money, it's Almost a curse. It really is.

[Podcast Host]

You're not ready.

[Lisa]

You're not ready. If your first check is, you're 18 years old, you go on a set and they give you $1,200 to do a scene, you don't realize that you have to take the money out for the taxes. You have to think about the 10% you spent on wardrobe, you know, whatever. It's not yours. And that's a hard lesson to learn. And even though state by state, California's just signed on, where you're going to have to pass a basic financial literacy course to graduate, which I think should be mandatory throughout the entire United States.

[Podcast Host]

I needed that when I was in high school.

[Lisa]

We all did. Because as soon as you got a job, you got credit cards sent to you in the mail. I got my $300 from Gap and I went right to the Gap and spent it all. And then for like a year, I was paying what they told me to pay. And I sat down with my uncle. I'm 16, and sat down with my uncle, and I said, why isn't this changing? He's like, let me teach you about credit cards. That was when I learned, had I known that I wouldn't have been paying. I would have just paid the whole thing.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, the interest.

[Lisa]

And I would have gone back to layaway. Because my first job, I was 13, I was a hostess at a restaurant in Pennsylv. You get working papers and work legally at 13. And I would go to the Deb Shop. There were Jordache jeans were the thing back then. And I would put $10 a week down on those jeans. Well, you finally paid for em and you got them. It was so exciting. You took such good care of them.

[Podcast Host]

How much were these jeans?

[Lisa]

They were probably at that time, maybe 80 bucks, which is a lot of money back then.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, that's crazy.

[Lisa]

A lot of money.

[Podcast Host]

That's more than I pay for jeans now.

[Lisa]

Right. But they were Jordash and Brooke Shields was wearing them. And they were very exclusive in my small town of Pennsylvania. But the thing was, on a credit card, you didn't value the shit as much because you just got it.

[Podcast Host]

It's not real.

[Lisa]

But financial literacy is so important. And I say to everyone, don't tell me how much money you make. Tell me how much money you have. And for watching that pod with Sophie, you know, I'm so excited that she's been able to tap into this resource financially. I don't want to be sad and see that she doesn't have any at the end of the day, if I were any of these young people. Whether you are Clav. Whether you are Sophie, first thing I'm doing, I'm going to The Forbes Top 100 list of financial planners in the world. Then I'm going to the top 10, and then I'm calling every single one of them, and I'm getting to know them. I'm also hiring a business manager. I'm very lucky. I have number seven, Jason Katz from ubs. And I'm. I want to run through a wall when I read that list every year, anytime.

[Podcast Host]

So you literally did what you're saying?

[Lisa]

Yes, I didn't do it then. Of course, you spend money when you're young. I didn't have access to this much money as they do, though. But as soon as I was, you know, as soon as I started reading, going to seminars, learning more about money, I realized it's not about how much I make. It's about what I do 100 with how much I make. And then it's about what. How much I can make can make me. And at what point in my life can I stop setting the alarm clock, stop worrying about other people, and know that all I got to do is sit and just wait for this interest to keep growing. And my retirement is funded FU money. And that's where I am now. And it's not FU money like hundreds of millions of dollars, but it's a comfortable amount of money that I know what my salary will be each year if I don't add another dime to it. And I feel good about that. There's a confidence in that. So for these people, it's like, don't buy cars. Don't buy stupid shit. I don't own cars. I. If I'm gonna have a car, I'm gonna lease a car. I'm not gonna own something stupid that's gonna depreciate. But they're all buying crazy cars. Like, I see these cars these girls have in Miami, and I'm like, the liability insurance, the taking care of them, the storing them, the just maintenance they need, because they're not just a Lexus. They're a car that you can only take to, like, one dealership, you know? Like, I feel like they're going to be broke.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Lisa]

And with Sophie coming out and being so clear that she's unaware of her situation, that makes me sad for her. Because anytime I call Jason, we do our. Our meetings, and we get on a zoom, and we sit and talk about what's going on in the market. What's going on with this war? How does this impact me? What should I be thinking about that? Every once in a while I come up with something. Like three years ago, I was like, we need to invest a lot in energy because AI needs a lot of fucking energy. And only 10% of the world at that time was using AI. And I threw a lot of money in energy. And that Money is up 470, 473, 478% right now on that money. That's like having a whole nother job. So having these meetings and having someone that speaks to you about your money and also check your shit. I check my shit every Monday and every Friday, no matter what. And sometimes I check during the week, but just. Because if you give too much trust to somebody, you run the risk of them taking advantage of you.

[Podcast Host]

You see it with pro athletes all

[Lisa]

the time, non stop.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, because she didn't even know how much she paid in tax last year.

[Lisa]

And you should know that.

[Podcast Host]

You should know that.

[Lisa]

Actually, like December 28th, my business manager and I sit down every year, he runs through all my numbers. We do a comparison of the last five years. Where am I doing better, where am I doing worse? What could I be improving on? Okay, great. I'm filing immediately. I want to pay everything we do. I'm on a salary we pay. I do everything legitimately and perfectly. But having those talks helps me reel it in, too, and helps me feel a sense of confidence. Because you know how much your money has grown, you know how you're doing, and it also lets you know if something fell out, you could still pick up the pieces. Not having your finger on the pulse of that could get you into, maybe they didn't pay your taxes properly. Maybe they're not having this conversation with you. Are you paying taxes differently on your tips versus your income? Like, what are you doing? What's your strategy here? So it kind of made me think it. She's young. She's also not PR trained. She reminds me of an athlete when they're new versus an athlete three years later. Right. She's giving a lot away right now. You know, she was on a podcast where she talked about Drake getting in her DMs. Like, there's certain things we just shouldn't do. I come from a generation where I would never talk about how much money I have. I would never give a number. I'll talk about what to do with it. I'll talk about my excitement of it. I also would never talk about a celebrity that came into my DMs or a celebrity I met or anything like that, because privacy is privacy and that person respected me with their time and space and I want to respect them back.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, for sure.

[Lisa]

So there's that cycle, but 5 million after all that, and then she just spent 200,000 to go to Coachella. It's like, like you're going to regret these little things. And when I met twins in Australia two years ago and they were getting ready to start their of, and they said, what's your advice? I said, take everything you make in the first 90 days and get it as far out of your reach as you can. That's what you're going to start your retirement plan with. I sat down with them on a calculator and I said, if you put this much aside a month for this many years on this much interest, by the time you're my age, you'll have this much money. And I said, after that 90 days, if you can be smart again, take the next 90 days, put it aside. An account that you don't have an ATM card to, you don't have a checkbook to, you have to walk into the bank. That's how I started saving money. I had separate accounts that I would have to walk into the bank and fill out the thing to get money out. And it was just transferred into there from my checking account, transferred into there. And it just helped me. We have to have regulators, right? Be honest with yourself. If you are a spender, then you need to figure out how to get your money out of your view.

[Podcast Host]

For sure. I love the way Alan Iverson structured his Reebok deal.

[Lisa]

I mean, it was brilliant because if he didn't, he'd be.

[Podcast Host]

He'd be broke. Broke, probably broke, broke.

[Lisa]

And he knew that. I mean, look, even Odell came out and said, 100 million is not a lot to live off.

[Podcast Host]

He just filed for a bankruptcy, right? Yeah, yeah, that's crazy.

[Lisa]

But yet Odell was renting houses in la that were 25 to 50 grand a month. Like bringing all of his friends. Like, you have to understand, especially NFL, shortest careers in all the sports, right?

[Podcast Host]

Average is three years.

[Lisa]

Three to five years, right? That, that three to five years is nothing. And you're on a rookie deal, which isn't great money, but again, if you invested your first million at 8% interest when you were 20, you'd have a

[Podcast Host]

lot of money, compound interest.

[Lisa]

You just have to put it in a retirement account that you have to pay a penalty to get it out. So that you don't want to lose that money, but you have to be smarter than that.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah. There's compound interest. Calculators that blow my mind whenever I

[Lisa]

coolest thing to look at.

[Podcast Host]

Makes me feel richer than I am.

[Lisa]

But I look at it with Sophie all the time because I think to myself, man, if she just put 5 million aside at her age when she started, and I do, and I have, like, me and Shadow go back and forth with other people, and I'm like, this person has this much money, what would it be when they're my age? Like, I'm always thinking that.

[Podcast Host]

I think if you put in 5 mil, you're going to be a centi millionaire, like 20, 30 years or something crazy.

[Lisa]

And that's at a minimal. Slow 8% again, you're going to the Forbes list. You're picking the best planner. You're getting your money to be making 16, 18%. You're gonna know when bonds are good. You're knowing the government needs money. You're gonna be in with all of these little ancillary things that you can do to be creative. Oh, so excited.

[Podcast Host]

Because having cash is trash.

[Lisa]

Trash.

[Podcast Host]

You lose money.

[Lisa]

You lose money. And also, nobody wants it. When you go to a store and try and fake cash, sometimes it really troubles people. They're like, wait a minute, wait a minute. I gotta get change out of here. Like, yeah, but like, you know, my rule of thumb with being a minimalist is. Is when I'm shopping, I very seldom shop with a credit card. So I will take cash out of the bank and I will tell myself, this is what I'm willing to spend and that's it. And I will tell you, I always come up with money because when you have to count out cash, you don't buy stupid.

[Podcast Host]

That makes sense because you're seeing it with your eyes.

[Lisa]

You are. But on the tap.

[Podcast Host]

Easy. I paid for my phone yesterday. Now, you could just tap your phone.

[Lisa]

It's crazy dangerous. Yeah, dangerous.

[Podcast Host]

I didn't even know you could do that.

[Lisa]

Oh, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Square readers.

[Lisa]

Oh, yeah. It's so easy.

[Podcast Host]

Crazy easy.

[Lisa]

It's great because you don't have to carry a wallet. And if you forget your wallet, you're

[Podcast Host]

like, oh, I forgot my wallet.

[Lisa]

So you're still very first time I used tap, I was in a cab and I realized I changed my purses and didn't put my wallet in my purse. I'm like, oh, that's right. I put a credit card. Let's tap. I did it.

[Podcast Host]

I was like, this is it's too easy. It's way too easy.

[Lisa]

But it can be handy when you need it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I agree with that. It's like a last resort. Yeah. But I think like there's some crazy stats on what percentage of credit card debt there is. I mean, people do not use those appropriately.

[Lisa]

Okay. I don't know if you listen to sports radio as much as I do, but there's a couple commercials that really trigger me. One of them is about credit cards debt. It said the Average American carries $27,000 in credit card debt. And I was like. And then there's other ones for like the IRS were like, I get that one a lot.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Lisa]

When I hear those, my heart palpitates. I'm like, how can you sleep and wake up knowing that you owe the irs? I mean, they are. Remember, I had a great experience with this when I first got into the industry. I followed the lead of watching all the stars from the 80s. And if you remember Janine, Janine was on the Blink 182 cover with the glove in the nurse's outfit. She was very famous in the 90s. And Jeanine and Julia Ann had this duo called Blondage and it was the hottest girl girl stage show in the world. It was amazing. She made tons of money. She went to jail for tax evasion. And I'm young in the business I'm in for a couple of years and I'm like, I need to learn about tax evasion. So then I learned that when you're in jail, that doesn't diminish your debt. It just slows down the 33 interest. They just stop your interest while you're serving time. And then when you get out, you still owe that money. And that was when I was like, okay. I photographed every check I got from every company. I put in a three ring binder. That was how I would. Because sometimes they'd mail you a 1099 late and then you get hit with having to refile. No. Anybody that gave me money, it went in this binder. I take it to my accountant quarterly. This was when I was. I was like, this is all the money I brought in and put in my bank account. Could we make 1099 for these? Yes. We'll just do it like this. We don't have to wait for anybody. I like to do my taxes early. But I. Because it scared me. This was somebody I knew in my space that was now sitting in jail and was going to get out and still have the debt.

[Podcast Host]

She must owed a lot.

[Lisa]

If that's not a lesson if you don't listen to the lessons. Like if you're not listening to athletes. Talk about going broke. Remember there was a whole 30 for 30 called broken. And it was good. Yeah, it was a good one.

[Podcast Host]

30 for 30s were the best. Christian Laitner. There were some good ones back in the day.

[Lisa]

That was a great one. That was a great one.

[Podcast Host]

But yeah, don't mess with irs. Man Floyd's dealing with some IRS stuff

[Lisa]

right now and look how much money he made.

[Podcast Host]

I think over a billion. Something crazy. I paid crazy.

[Lisa]

It's, it's, it's. And you, you know what's crazy is too. I, all of my friends have different jobs, they're not in the industry. And so the secret millionaire is the teacher that makes no money that we all feel bad for, but is, is so good at knowing what she can and cannot spend that she never gets in trouble. Her pensions being matched, she's got great benefits and she ends up being the secret millionaire. And then the girl that blew through or the athlete that blew through has nothing.

[Podcast Host]

I saw with my parents, they worked nine to fives their whole lives, but they just knew how to save, they knew how to invest. Both of them became self made millionaires

[Lisa]

and they also didn't buy stupid shit.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that's, that's. I feel like that generation there wasn't that need to, to flex because social media wasn't around. You probably caught that at the beginning of your career.

[Lisa]

Right the middle, actually I got in in 94 was my first contract, so the Internet wasn't. I had a lot of time before that. But there's also little things that add up. Like I don't order delivery food.

[Podcast Host]

Really. That's my.

[Lisa]

But you're a guy and you don't cook and you're young and you're busy and I get that. But I have a schedule where I'm working from home. There's no excuse. Right? It has to be an excuse. And for me it's like when I look at the fees, oh my God. I can't justify it. I mean, I just can't justify.

[Podcast Host]

The other day was 30 bucks for a bowl.

[Lisa]

I can't justify it. And so your parents would lose their minds because then they would look at the fees and be like, I mean, I'm sure you guys didn't eat out all the time.

[Podcast Host]

Not growing up. No.

[Sean Kelly]

Pizza.

[Lisa]

Once in a while we had pizza every Friday. My grandparents took us to a steakhouse once a month. That was it. We, we had water at the table. We were never allowed to order soda or anything like that. But that's okay because when I came into money, I valued it and I felt very grateful. I would rather spend money on an experience than a thing. And as a minimalist, I only buy what I need. And whenever I buy something, I have to get rid of something as well. So that really, if I bring a bag in of clothes, take a picture of the bag, I have to fill the bag with the exact amount of contents and take it to donate.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Lisa]

Because then you don't get overwhelmed with stuff. And I took a two year span of really discovering minimalism and I wanted to take 75 of my life away. These were. I had to live in a bigger home because I had full closets. Like, you just complicate your life with stuff. And then on your days off, what are you doing? You're managing yourself.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I went through a minimalism phase and Nate o'. Brien. Is that who you were watching?

[Lisa]

No, I was the minimalists.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, okay.

[Lisa]

But they're all, you know, they're coming

[Podcast Host]

on the show, actually.

[Lisa]

You're gonna love them so much. They are great people. I've been on their show a couple of times. They've been on my. I wrote them a thank you letter. Like, they changed my life. That first documentary I watched, watched, I'll never forget. I watched it, I ordered both their books, I read them both, and I started one closet at a time. And I've got so many friends. It was just very empowering.

[Podcast Host]

I'm not as into it as you, but it's definitely helped me because at the time, I was buying watches, I was buying cars, I was buying some wild stuff.

[Lisa]

Of course, we all go through that phase, by the way. We all go through that phase. And when you start getting rid of it, you're like, why did I buy this? Did I like this? Like, I never wore it. Like, what did I do this for? The tag is still on this thing.

[Podcast Host]

Like, literally, I have watches that I've never worn. It was all out of insecurity, of course. Trying to fit in.

[Lisa]

Someone else is doing it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Or see someone on social media wearing it, you know? So I was like, this is stupid.

[Lisa]

You're gonna love them.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, my God.

[Lisa]

They're great people. They have a great following too.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. They got a good show, so that's great. But what's next for you? What's the next thing you're working on?

[Lisa]

So I'm writing my third book right now. I am. I have a mainstream Page on a platform called Subs. Subs is Tim Stokely, the original creator of OnlyFans has started a new platform called Subs, which people run however they want. I decided to make it a mainstream page so I could stay connected with the cool fans that I have that want to do video calls and nothing spicy, nothing anything. Just me as my life now. So I put a little bit of time into that. Really excited about the world of AI and the fact that my digital twin is going to be webcamming for me in a couple of months.

[Podcast Host]

It's that good?

[Lisa]

That good.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Lisa]

We finally have good hands and toes. Remember, that was weird. Like with an AI photo, first thing I tell people, look at the hands on the feet. Feet.

[Podcast Host]

I remember the mouth was the issue at first.

[Lisa]

Yeah, the ones they got that fast. But then the hands and the feet were always weird. It's like one finger that's over here. And really, you know, my goal, many goals that I've had, but one of them was that by 50, I would never need to set an alarm clock again. And it's funny because, you know when you're going on a flight, you normally. I take early morning flights and I find that now when I set an alarm clock, I wake up every hour checking it. I've gotten so used to letting my body sleep that when I know something's waiting for me, it bothers me. It was just a thing. It was like, I want to be able to. To wake up without alarm. I don't sleep in, but I wake up when my body's ready to wake up. And I want to be able to go to the gym at whatever time of the day I want to. Those are like little freedoms, but they're huge freedoms. Right? So what's next for me is just kind of living this life that I'm living right now, staying connected with the industry in this space of always being a positive lead if anybody needs something or if anybody wants advice or if anybody wants a connection. I love to network people and really just enjoying the fact that most of my older friends, a lot of my friends are 10 some years old. They're all retiring now. So I'm watching what it's like of them just hiking every day, going on cool trips, having awesome experiences. And I'm looking forward to that, that back. The back nine of my life.

[Podcast Host]

Let's go. Thanks for your time today, Lisa.

[Lisa]

That was fun. Thanks for having me.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, check her out, guys. See you next time. Thanks for staying all the way to the end, guys. It means a lot to me if you could please leave a review on Apple that helps us climb the charts, it helps us get way more guests, and it helps us continue growing the podcast and the team. So it would mean a lot to me if you left a review on Apple or wherever else you're listening. Thanks so much.