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Digital Social Hour
Mark Moss Reveals Why You Should NEVER Sell Your Bitcoin | DSH #2051
00:52:42
| DSH #2051 Most financial advice is designed to keep you safe—not make you wealthy. In this Digital Social Hour episode, Sean Kelly sits down with Mark Moss to discuss Bitcoin, inflation, debt, real estate, the national deficit, artificial intelligence, digital currencies, and how the financial system quietly erodes purchasing power. Mark explains why paying off every debt may be good advice for most people but not necessarily the fastest path to building wealth. He breaks down monetary inflation, why he believes the real rate of currency debasement is much higher than reported CPI, and how Bitcoin changes the way investors measure the price of homes, assets, and time. The conversation also covers borrowing against appreciating assets, the end of the gold standard, global reserve currencies, central bank digital currencies, programmable money, government surveillance, and the growing intersection between Bitcoin mining and AI infrastructure. Mark closes by explaining why AI a...
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- [00:00]
A
Most financial advice you hear, like a Dave Ramsey would tell you to pay off your house as fast as you can pay it off in 15 years. Make an extra payment, you know, every month, pay off all your debt. Right. That advice is correct for 90% of the people, because they're not smart enough. They don't want to work to understand this. But it's not the way to build wealth.
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B
Do you ever pull out your bitcoin?
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A
No, you would never want to do that.
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B
Our national debt, I looked it up this morning. 38.9 trillion.
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A
It's crazy.
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B
Nuts, right?
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A
Yeah. It's going up so fast, I don't
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B
think that's getting paid off anytime soon.
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A
It. I don't think it'll ever get paid off ever.
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B
All right, guys, got Mark Moss here today. Been having. Trying to have him on for a while. He's a keynote this year. Just spoke on main stage. How'd it go, man?
- [00:42]
A
Yeah, I think it went great. From what I've heard. We had like standing room only in the back of the room, and we had cameras up the whole time taking photos of the slides. So that's a success.
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B
Yeah, that's more than cash Patel had.
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A
Yeah, he can't. Well, I mean, was. He did virtual. Virtual. Yeah.
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B
That's always tougher.
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A
I feel like that was tough. And I think also yesterday was industry day, so it wasn't as full. But also he may not be bitcoiner's favorite person to have come in. You know, bitcoin was created as dissident technology. That's kind of what its purpose was for. To protect our privacy and freedom from overreaching government. And so a lot of the original bitcoin ethos is still sort of very anti authoritarian.
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B
Right.
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A
Which is fine. But even for me at that point, you know, it was meant, like, to protect us. But like when I came in in 2015, which is a little bit later, you know, I saw it as a tool that could change the world. Like, fix the money, you know, fix it. Fix the world. So then in that. In that vision, it was always coming for everything, of course. Every person, every business, every corporation, every institution, and of course every government would eventually. So I don't look at it as like we're bending and balanc. Bowing down to the government. It's like, no, no, no, no. We've now infiltrated the government. So I look at a little bit differently, but people are still a little bit salty about that.
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B
Yeah. And now governments are buying it.
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A
Right.
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B
Having reserves. And I think we need that to get to that next level?
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A
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if, I don't know if we need it. I mean, bitcoin has got to a 2 trillion dollar asset in spite of that. Right. So it doesn't need it, they need bitcoin.
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B
You think so?
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A
Well, of course. I mean, if you want to build wealth into the future, you know, the two main things that you have to focus on is like, how do I provide for my needs today, but how do I provide for my needs? So I need a way to push value into the future. And the problem is, of course, you know, fiat money just loses value every day. And so then I have to figure out a way to push value into the future. How much value do I have to push? Well, the rate of monetary debasement is about 10% per year. So it's not like the government's reported, you know, two and a half, 3% CPI. It's the rate of monetary expansion. That's the real rate of debasement or inflation. So then I have to have an asset that goes up by more than 10% a year.
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B
Wow.
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A
And there's not a lot of choices there.
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B
Wait, you're saying inflation's actually 10% a year though?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Holy crap.
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A
Yeah. Well, what, what I'm saying is the government's number of consumer price. Inflation, first of all, is not really what inflation even means. The, the definition of inflation is think about like a balloon. If I'm going to inflate a balloon, I'm increasing the volume of air in a balloon. Right. So inflation is when I increase the money supply, when I increase the volume of money. Rothbard said inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon. So it's from the money creation. What happens is when you create more money, but you don't increase the goods and services, more demand for the goods and services, so the price of those goods and services go up. The government wanted to change that. So around the 1950s, they started changing that. One of the godfathers of the Austrian school of economics, Ludwig von Mises, was warning people, hey, hey, they're going to try to, in the 50s, hey, they're trying to change the definition from monetary inflation to now asset or consumer price inflation. And he said the reason why is because they want to confuse everybody. Because, like, I mean, I don't know, like Frito Chips went down and Netflix the same. But I don't know why the, you know, so why do these prices go up? These prices went down. It certainly can't be the money.
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B
Interesting.
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A
And so what's happened is now all relation to money has been lost. And so now we focus on that cpi. But really what it is, is when you increase the money supply. Let me back it up a sec, a second. So if you think about it from a philosophical level, we don't want money. Nobody wants money. We want the goods and services that money buys us.
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B
Right?
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A
Right. So money is a medium of exchange to get what we want. Right. So goods and services is the wealth.
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B
Right.
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A
Let's do a thought experiment. If I owned a business that was worth a million dollars and you invested 10% or a hundred thousand dollars into my business, and I scaled that business to 10 million, your 10% would now be worth a million dollars. So you're the value, the purchasing power of your investment of what you held. Your holdings increased in purchasing power by 10 times. Right. But what if I diluted you along the way? I increased the amount of shares, so now you own a smaller. You still own the same amount of shares, but it's a smaller percentage of the pie and maybe it's still only worth a hundred thousand. So that's what happens when you have a dollar. That dollar represents a share of all the wealth of the world. But every time they print more dollars, you get diluted in your ownership of that world.
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B
Right.
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A
And so what happens is inflation. It's like if I live in my mom's basement and watch Netflix and eat, you know, microwave dinners, inflation doesn't really bother me. But if I live on the coast and I want to send my kids to university and I want to drive a brand new car, inflation hits me really hard. So inflation is all over the board. Right. When consumer price inflation. So the number we want to watch is back to the. The rate of the monetary expansion is about 10.
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B
Got it. So what would happen if we stopped printing money then?
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A
Well, what would happen if we stopped printing money like tomorrow? It'd be pretty bad. It would be bad, yeah.
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B
I mean, you need to print, just not excessively.
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A
You can't just turn off the switch. Right. So what the Kenzie and the economists want to tell you is that the money supply always has to expand because new people are born every day. And as people expand, we need the money supply to expand. And we believe that to be false. And Austria Lens believes that to be false. Cause it's simple. Would you rather your money buy you more stuff in the future or less stuff in the future? More stuff, More stuff. Of course, everybody would. And the reason why is because I'm supposed to be Able to work less and less and less. Like, my money should be more efficient. And so what would happen if they stop printing money is then we'd be in a deflationary economy instead of an inflationary economy.
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B
Got it.
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A
So when we say inflationary, meaning prices keep getting higher because your share of those goods keeps going down. But if your share never got diluted as the wealth grows, you would have more purchasing power into that. So if we were on a sound money standard, what we think a bitcoin standard will be eventually. And you could be on a bitcoin standard today. On a bitcoin standard, my money would buy me more and more goods and services in the future. So, for example, in 2016, the median US home. Actually, in 2020, the median US home was about $260,000. Today it's about almost $500,000.
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B
So it doubled.
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A
Okay. In 20. In. In 2020, it was. It was like 16 Bitcoin to buy that median home. Today, it's 4.
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B
Wow. So a quarter.
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A
Yeah. So what that means is if I just used bitcoin as my store value and my unit of account, my measurement, for me, everything's getting cheaper. So while most people are like they're drowning, they can't keep up with how expensive things are getting. I don't know what you mean. Because everything's getting cheaper to me.
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B
Wow, that must feel nice.
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A
I'm just measuring. I'm just using a different measuring stick.
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B
Yeah. So most of your. Your liquid wealth is in bitcoin.
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A
Yeah. So for me, it's. It's real estate. And I've gotten rid of all. I started my career in real estate. I've gotten rid of all my rental properties, but I still own like beach properties and ranch properties.
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B
So I just take the loan out against it.
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A
Yeah, there's a trophy property. So I still like, I'm old. I still like, I still like real estate. And then I have businesses and multiple business interests and then bitcoin, and that's. That's kind of it.
- [08:02]
B
And do you ever pull out your bitcoin?
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A
No, you would never want to do that. Right. So this is actually something I talked about on the keynote ahead earlier. So like, my grandfather, he just knew that he was supposed to buy assets and he bought property, he bought land, he bought houses, he bought buildings.
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B
Right.
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A
My other grandfather, same thing. My other grandfather owned a bunch of farmland up in Iowa. Because in the world they grew up in pre1971, we were on what's called an equity based monetary System, we're on a gold backed monetary system where you could save and build that purchasing power. In 1971, President Richard Nixon rug pulled the world and we went on to now what's called a debt based monetary system. So we went from an equity based to a debt based monetary system. And so now my parents and my aunts and uncles sort of grew up in that environment and they don't understand that way of building wealth. So what they did as soon as my grandfather died is sell all the assets, get a big pile of cash and spend it.
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B
Right.
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A
And then just destroy all the wealth. But we never want to do that. We want to, I want to build wealth and push that wealth into the future, the value to the future, right. And so what happens is assets grow and we think of them in terms of the, the percentage they're growing and then they grow on top of the growth or what we call compounding. Einstein called it the eighth wonder of the world. Compound compounding, compound interest. Human, humans can't really comprehend what this means. So he said, and this is super important, he said that Compound interest is 8th one world. He said, those who know it earn it, those who don't know it pay it. There's no neutral. You're either going to earn it or you're going to pay it. One or the other, you choose. It's what Jesus told us about the parable of the talents. Those who have more will be given, those who don't, it will be taken away.
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B
How would you pay it compound interest though?
- [09:53]
A
Yeah, well, because everything in life is compounding. Let's use an example, like your podcast for example, right? If you do a really good podcast and people watch that and they like it, they'll probably watch it again and they might even tell their friends to watch it. So you're going to compound growth. Each person tells two or three people who tells two or three people in your compounding growth. What if you roll out a couple really bad episodes and people watch that for the first time and they think you're terrible and they start telling their friends, oh, I watched that guy, he's terrible. Don't watch it. See how it compounds against you or compounds for you.
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B
Got it.
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A
Right. And so what happens is in a debt based monetary system, we can compound our wealth, but if we don't, the inflation is growing so fast, it steals that away from us. So that's the problem. So as you're, you know, the average person's working their 9 to 5, putting part of their paycheck into their 401k and saving for a long time. The rate at that growth is not growing fast enough. So it's being taken from them. They're paying it to the inflation.
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B
Got it.
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A
Right. So let's think about what this means for a second because it's pretty fascinating. So bitcoin's averaging about a 50% compound annual growth rate per year. Means every year goes about 50%. Now, not every single year because it's volatile, but when you look at it over a couple year period, if you look at it based off a 200 weekly moving average, it's about a 30% compound annual growth rate. Let's drop it to 20 just so we can think about this in numbers. At 20%, that means that it doubles every three and a half years.
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B
Wow.
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A
Okay, so this is where it gets really powerful. So think about this. So if you had a million dollars In Bitcoin in three years, that's 2, and then it's 4, then it's 8 and it's 16, and it's 32 and it's 64, then it's 128 million. That last double is $64 million in three years. 64 million in three years. The same time it took to go from 1 to 2. But if I sell my bitcoin at some point I get to pay tax on it.
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B
Right.
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A
I get to keep what's left and I lose out on all that compounding.
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B
Yeah. So never sell.
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A
So I'll. So I'll pay it. I'll pay the compound.
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B
Yeah. So that's assuming it doubles every three years, though. Pretty crazy. But.
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A
Well, it's assuming a compound under growth rate of 2020, and right now it's about 50%. If we look at the 200 weekly, like I said, as of right now, kind of depends on when you measure it. That's 30%. So that's. That's at 20. It should do more than that, at least probably for the next two decades. Really? Yeah.
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B
Wow. You're that confident?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Holy crap. Because I know people are saying the market cap is getting really high now, so it's going to be harder to double, but no. You don't think so?
- [12:24]
A
Well, sure. Instead of 80% CAGAR compound annual growth rate, it goes from 80 to 60 to 50 to 40 to 30 to 20.
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B
Sure.
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A
It goes down over time. I'm not debating that. The bigger it gets, the harder it is to get bigger.
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B
Right.
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A
It's the law of large numbers. So, sure it goes. It was at 80% and now it's a 50% and eventually gets to 20%, but not for. Not for a while.
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B
Yeah. I was on your YouTube. You just did a video about gold too, right?
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A
Yeah, I talk about gold.
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B
What are your thoughts on gold for
- [12:50]
A
the, you know, a couple. Couple of things. So, number one, gold is the past. Bitcoin's the future. So bitcoin has been. Our gold's been money for 5,000 years. And if you think about the way that money works, it's always been this emergent phenomenon, meaning that we've had feathers, rocks, seashells, all types of things that have been money. And it starts as like collectible, like, oh, look at this cool rocker feather seashell. And then some collectibles turn into stores of value. Like people put a lot of wealth into like baseball cards, Pokemon cards.
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B
Right?
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A
Yeah. And then. And then. Or old cars or fine art or whatever, the store of value. And then if it has the right monetary attributes, it could become a medium exchange. So if it's portable, durable, divisible, et cetera. So gold became that. The problem is that we don't live in that old world anymore.
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B
We.
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A
We don't live in a. In a world of villages, and we don't live in a world of barter. And now we live in the Internet and AI age, right? And so now transaction times are at the speed of light. But to settle the transaction, it's still like from 500 years ago. So because gold is so big, like, you know, you're in. You're in Nevada, I'm in California. You and I do a transaction, like, we could just go online and make a deal. But how do I pay you in gold? I'll have to get an armored truck and drive. Like, how long is it going to take? How much that going to cost is like ridiculous, right?
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B
The liquidity is not instant.
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A
Well, the settlement.
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B
The settlement, yeah.
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A
So what happens is then we put the gold in the bank, and then they use a ledger and they say, hey, just take it off of Mark's account, give it to Sean's account. But now we have to trust that person. How do I know they even have the gold? How do they know that they credit the ledger properly? And what history shows us is that over and over and over that they lie.
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B
Right.
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A
In 1933, the U.S. government, which you would never think that the U.S. government seized all the gold, took everyone's money, stole it for what reason they wanted it.
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B
Huh.
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A
So what happened in. Is in 1913, we had the creation of the Federal Reserve, the Federal Reserve said, hey, we're going to start printing this funny money, These claims, these dollar based IOUs, and 32 of these dollars, or at the time it was 20, 20 of these dollars will equal 1 ounce of gold. So you put the gold in the bank and then you can use these dollars. It was like layer two. So bitcoin is a base, or I'm sorry, gold is a base layer. If I give you the gold, you have the gold, but because it's so big, heavy and clunky, we'll put it in the bank and then we'll trade these paper certificates and these we can send around real quick. Yeah, but it's not final settlement. If you want the gold, you have to go to the bank and get the gold.
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B
Got it.
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A
And so what happened is everyone had their gold in the bank, the government had printed way too many of these IOUs, these paper claims to gold than there were actually gold in the bank. So 1933, the banks went on a holiday. They closed the banks down, everyone couldn't get their money. I think it was about six or seven days the banks open back up and you can't get your gold out anymore. You're not allowed to have it anymore. As a matter of fact, it's illegal to own gold. Don't worry though, we're going to give you money, we're going to give you this fake money. We're going to give it to you for the gold that you have, but not at the pre, predetermined price. We're going to now give it to you at a much lower price. So you don't. So you got, you lost 60% of your wealth.
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B
Geez.
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A
And so the government has a history of doing this. And then as I said, Richard Nixon rug pulled. So then what happened? That was 1930, 1944, the whole world met in something called Bretton Woods Agreement where the dollar would be backed by gold and then all the currencies of the world would peg to the dollar. So everyone was still on a gold backed system, but based off the dollar being on gold. But again, the government printed way too many of these claims, these fake claims. And the rest of the world started realizing, and they're like, hey, like we know what you're doing here. Like, we don't want these, what is this paper? It's worthless. We want the gold. So each nation started coming to repatriate their gold, take it back. And finally France came over to get the gold. They sent warships over to get the gold and Richard Nixon said, nope, we're done severed the ties, we're no longer going to redeem it for gold. So he basically defaulted on all the debt.
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B
Wow.
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A
Yeah. So over and over and over again, anytime we've trusted them with gold in the bank and we've used one of their claims, the debt based instruments, they've defaulted or reneg done that. So why would that change? That's human nature. Right. And so anyway, back to gold. What's happening today is that we have sort of this fracturing of the global chessboard game board if you will. Russia had their bank account seized in 2022 when they moved on Ukraine and the whole world was put on notice like, shoot, if Russia could have their bank account seized, what hope do we have? We probably shouldn't hold a bunch of dollars. What should we hold? And so they're trying to figure out what's next. So central banks have been been buying record amounts of gold in the last three years. But that's going backwards. Technology changes things forward. So anyway, for gold, you know, it's been, it's performed very well the last two years. I think it will continue to good but it won't do anywhere near as good as Bitcoin.
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B
Won't outperform it. No. I wonder why they're picking metals over
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A
crypto, these central banks.
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B
Yeah, central banks.
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A
Well I think number one, central banks run off. So the BIS is the central bank of all central banks and they report through these Basel requirements of what type of collateral central banks have to have or hold. And so they went back and changed it so they could start holding gold again.
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B
Got it.
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A
But they're not able to hold Bitcoin number one. Number two, Bitcoin's like a brand new piece of technology that's still not, I mean obviously it's gaining momentum. 17 years later here we are at this massive conference. But it's not like central banks of the world are going to dump dollars in gold and go straight to Bitcoin. It's like a process for sure. So a lot of people would ask that question and think that things should be happening faster. But these things take a long time. So for example, the dollar is the reserve currency of the world today. Before the dollar was the pound sterling. And the dollar started to gain momentum as the pound sterling was falling in World War I, World War II, and then finally with Bretton woods in 1944. And it was about a 30 to 40 year process that that happened, not like overnight, it was about 30 to 40 years. And Bitcoin's only 17 years old. So it was about 30 to 40 years for the dollar to take over for the pound sterling. And even today, 100 years later, the pound sterling is still the third most used currency in the world.
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B
Wow.
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A
And they don't even export anything. What do they even make?
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B
Right.
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A
So like, these things take a long time.
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B
Yeah. Do you see a threat to the dollar as a reserve currency? With all the brics talk and other.
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A
So I think, I mean, I don't think anybody saves their money in dollars. Yeah, nobody. So like, what they, what, what the banks hold is U.S. treasuries. They hold the debt of the government. And so is there a threat to that? I mean, certainly there is, as Russia found out. Like they had their, their, their, their debt basically seized or canceled, if you will. And they, they also know that they're guaranteed to be liquidated. And this is a really key piece. So most financial portfolios in the world and in the United States are built so like your average person that's working and has their, their company deducts part of their paycheck and puts it into a retirement account. Right. It's typically running on something like a 60, 40 portfolio. So 60% stocks, 40% bonds. And they do that to sort of like offset the risk. Like if the stock market drops, the fixed income does good. But the problem is, is that the bond market is guaranteed to liquidate people. So back to the bis, the central bank of above central banks, and the IMF International Monetary Fund. They both wrote a white paper in 2015 titled the Liquidation of Government Debt. So the governments have all this debt. What are we going to do about it? How do we get out of the debt? Forget trying to pay it off. We'll do something else. We'll liquidate it. So in the white paper, they explain it. It's something called financial repression. And they did this in the 1940s. This is how the government got out of the debt after World War II. So financial repression is where we allow inflation to run hot, but we keep the bond yields lower. So inflation's 6%, but I'm paying you 3% on your debt on your bond. And so yes, you're earning 3%, but it's 3% less than what you're actually losing to inflation.
- [20:46]
B
Got it.
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A
And it's sort of like passing a tax on to that bondholder. And so they're being liquidated. So every bondholder knows that's the playbook they're going to get liquidated. And so they have to find something else that's another reason why they're going to gold. So one, the trust issue number two, they don't want to get paid back in less, you know, in inflated dollars.
- [21:06]
B
That makes sense. Yeah. Our national debt, I looked it up this morning. 38.9 trillion.
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A
It's crazy nuts, right? Yeah. So fast.
- [21:12]
B
I don't think that's getting paid off anytime soon.
- [21:15]
A
I don't think it'll ever get paid off ever. I don't. This may, this, this is, this is pretty alarming, but I don't think it ever should get paid off. Right. I mean we're in a debt based monetary system. So again, we have to remember the world changed in 1971. So what that means is that money is created through debt. That's how it gets created. We talk about all the feds printing money. They don't really print money. When you go to the bank to get a house, a car, boat loan, the money is created into existence.
- [21:39]
B
Really? Yeah. They don't have that money?
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A
No, they don't have the money. So they, they create it out of thin air when you get the loan.
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B
Wow, that's crazy. Yeah, I didn't know that. It's pretty funny. I thought they had to have a certain amount of money.
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A
So they used to, it used to be called fractional reserve banking. So they'd have to keep like 10 of that in reserves to create money off of. But what happened is if I had $1,000 in my bank, they could create 90% debt against that. Right. But then, so they, they create debt and you get a boat loan. Now you go give that cash to somebody for the boat, they put it in the bank and then the bank loan is 90% out against that. And then they buy something else they put in the bank and they loan against that. So it used to be fractional reserve, but in 2020 they ended that. So now there is no fractional reserve. Now the banks just loan made, they just create the money. You serious?
- [22:26]
B
So they're still printing a lot of money then right now?
- [22:28]
A
Well, you just talked about the debt levels, right? So we're running deficits. We're running almost, I think it's $1.9 trillion of debt deficit per year. Meaning this, the government's spending about 7 trillion and they bring in about 5 trillion of tax receipts.
- [22:42]
B
Wow.
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A
So they're spending about $2 trillion more than what they bring in. And where do they get the money? What's the debt?
- [22:49]
B
That's crazy.
- [22:49]
A
Yeah. And now, you know, with Iran situation that we have going on we're going to blow past, way past the deficits that we had set for today. And so what's interesting is it's created this, this condition of what we call financial repression. I'm sorry, not financial repression. It's called fiscal dominance. And what that means is that you have the Fed that controls the monetary supply, so that's how much money we have and what the price of that money is. And then you have the government or the US treasury that controls the fiscal side of the budget. So how much we spend, how much we bring in, taxes and profits and loss, if you will. So what's happening now with the government printing so much money, $2 trillion of deficit. We're in this period of fiscal dominance, meaning the amount of spending that they're doing is so high and so powerful that the Fed's monetary policy is almost worthless. So the Fed thinks that they can rise or slow down inflation by adjusting rates, but it's kind of been muted out because the government is printing so much money.
- [23:52]
B
So them lowering the interest rates wouldn't really matter.
- [23:54]
A
It doesn't. It doesn't matter.
- [23:56]
B
They're talking about that right now. But people think it matters a lot.
- [23:58]
A
Yeah, interesting. They think it matters a lot. And it would if we weren't in a period of fiscal dominance, but with the government printing $2 trillion deficit spending per year. And so this brings us to a pretty interesting point, which is like, what do we do about this? So at the bitcoin conference, a lot of times it's pitched as like, the system's rigged, man. And this is why you can't get ahead. And if we go to a bitcoin standard, a sound money standard fixes that. So you should all want to go to a bitcoin standard. And that's true. But as I said, that's a 30 to 40 year process. Like, sure, eventually we'll get there. And I'm actively building towards that world. I'm a partner at the Bitcoin Opportunity Fund. We're deploying capital into bitcoin business. We're trying to build this world out, but it's 30 to 40 years out. What do we do today? And so we have to, like, think about the financial system that we have and how we use that. So think about this as this macro loop. So the government has a deficit. They need $2 trillion of debt every year.
- [24:56]
B
Yeah.
- [24:57]
A
So the Debt is growing 39 trillion at this point. Right. So they need to push rates lower because they can't afford the interest on the debt. You can't have the debt grow and the rate go up at the same time. If the, if the debt grows but the rate goes down, the payment stays the same.
- [25:12]
B
Got it?
- [25:13]
A
Right. So what the government needs is they need more debt, more money printing, but they need cheaper rates.
- [25:21]
B
What's the rate right now they're paying?
- [25:23]
A
I mean you have a bunch of different bonds, but you know, anywhere from six month bills up to 30 years. But you know, it's in the four and a half percent range. Okay, yeah, four and a half percent. I think Trump wants it down to like 1% before he leaves office. That's where he'd like it because the interest that's owed on that debt is unmanageable. But here's what happens. So they print the money for the debt, they keep rates artificially depressed because they can't afford to pay the interest on it, and they need cheaper borrowing. When they do that, it creates inflation, meaning more money gets, gets created. And that pushes asset prices higher and consumer prices higher. When those prices go higher, that pushes the asset higher, but it also destroys the debt, which is why they want it. So what do I mean by that? If you buy a house and you buy a million dollar home, it's a 30 year fixed mortgage and you're paying $10,000 a month, whatever. It's a $300,000 house, you're paying a thousand dollars a month, whatever.
- [26:21]
B
Right.
- [26:22]
A
In 10 years from now, that thousand dollars a month is not what it is today. In 20 years from now, that thousand dollars a month is like going out to dinner.
- [26:32]
B
Right.
- [26:32]
A
So it's destroying your debt, it's making the debt cheaper and cheaper and cheaper over time. So this system that I'm talking about does two things simultaneously. It, one pushes asset prices higher and it destroys the debt against those asset prices at the same time.
- [26:48]
B
Got it.
- [26:49]
A
So if I use debt to buy assets, they're literally destroying my debt and pumping my bags.
- [26:56]
B
So isn't that a good thing though?
- [26:57]
A
Yeah, it's a great thing.
- [26:58]
B
So you recommend 30 year mortgages.
- [27:01]
A
I would take a 50 year mortgage if I could because a lot of
- [27:04]
B
people say to like put down as much as you can because the interest is so high.
- [27:07]
A
Yeah, I mean most financial advice you hear, like a Dave Ramsey would tell you to pay off your house as fast as you can, pay it off in 15 years, make an extra payment, you know, every month, pay off all your debt. Right. That, that advice is correct for 90% of the people, because they're not smart enough, they don't want to work to understand this, but it's not the way to build wealth. Certainly saving is better than not saving. Don't get me wrong, going to the gym and doing anything is better than doing nothing. But it's not as good as having a plan and a coach. Right. So his plan is better than doing nothing. Certainly. If you could save a little bit, why not? But again, because money is created through debt issuance. If you want to build wealth, how do you get wealth through the debt issuance? So by telling people to stay away from debt, you're telling them to stay away from the money printer, Right?
- [27:59]
B
Yeah. His whole thing is being debt free, right?
- [28:01]
A
Yeah.
- [28:01]
B
No credit cards, no debt.
- [28:03]
A
Yeah.
- [28:03]
B
Pay off everything asap.
- [28:04]
A
Yeah.
- [28:05]
B
And that might have worked for his
- [28:06]
A
generation, but in, in an equity based system pre1971. Yeah. But not in a debt based system. Now it still works today for people who have no self control, have no discipline, which is a lot of people. Which is most people. Which is why I said he's right. For 90 of the people.
- [28:20]
B
Yeah. But for the 10% that are Bitcoin
- [28:22]
A
maxis or the 10% of people that actually, you know, pay attention to these things and actually want to build wealth and will actually read some books and take some time to plan this out for those people, there's a way better way.
- [28:32]
B
Yeah. Have you talked about the digital dollar yet that might happen?
- [28:36]
A
I mean we have it, right? I mean when you talk about digital, we have the US Dollar, stable coins. Yeah. And then maybe you're asking about like a CBDC government digital dollar. Yeah, like, like a central bank digital currency. Yeah, the central bank digital currency is an interesting topic. That is basically where the central banks create money through a digital token and they push that out. We don't have that in the US nor is it really coming out anytime soon. Europe's trying to roll it out very quickly. China has one rolled out already. The problem with that is that it becomes programmable money. The government is always trying to shape policy with money anyway. But by being able to program the money now, they can really dial it in. So for examp. Well, you know, you're, you're, you're sa. You're making way too much money and you're saving way too much. We're just going to charge you negative interest rates on your money in the bank. Oh, but you know, this person over here, they're not saving near enough. We're going to just give them more interest rates or, you know, I mean, nothing good Happens after midnight, right? So like you just can't spend money after midnight anymore. And you know, I mean, we think people should probably eat less red meat. So how about you can only spend $100 a month on red meat and then you can't spend that money on that anymore.
- [29:49]
B
Right.
- [29:49]
A
Because it's programmable. So now they could program what you can, can't buy, spend, can't spend on whatever. And then obviously total surveillance as well. You know, when, when in 2020 when the kind of the whole world was shut down, the government printed all that stimulus and they sent that, the stimmy out to stimulate the economy. They're trying to get people to go spend, like go out, go go to shops, buy stuff like we need to get the economy going. But a lot of people hoarded that money because they were scared of what was going to happen. So in something like that you could say, hey, we're going to give you the money, but if you don't spend it in seven days, we take it back. Right. So there's all types of things that can be done with programmable money. So it's super scary, super. You know, it's like one of those sci fi movies of the future that always kind of has that dystopian view, you know. But you know, in the US it looks like it's pretty much dead.
- [30:40]
B
Oh really?
- [30:41]
A
Yeah.
- [30:41]
B
Oh, okay. I saw people saying it's coming soon.
- [30:44]
A
Well, we have multiple states. I think 14 states now have all put in bills or pass laws to prevent central bank digital currencies from being used.
- [30:53]
B
Conservative states.
- [30:55]
A
Yeah, of course, of course the red states. Right. But even, even in the US government, you know, there's no plan to push the cbdc. Now a lot, a lot of people say that a stable coin is like a CBDC or usdt, but either one. Right. They're both stable coins. Right. So I give them a dollar, they give token back. But it's not created by the central bank. So it's not a central bank. Digital.
- [31:18]
B
It is a digital.
- [31:18]
A
So it's like the, the semantics of it sort of gets a little bit convoluted.
- [31:21]
B
But I have seen some cases where they could freeze it though.
- [31:24]
A
Yeah, of course they can freeze it.
- [31:26]
B
You know. Yeah, that's kind of concerning.
- [31:27]
A
But yeah, I, Iran just had their, their accounts seized. I think it was like 384 million.
- [31:33]
B
So how does that process happen?
- [31:34]
A
Yeah, so what happens is bitcoin. So we here at the bitcoin conference, we say very clearly bitcoin, not crypto. So I think there's 19 and a half million crypto currencies out there. If you go to like coinmarketcap.com and look, it's like 19/2 million. So we say bitcoin, not crypto, meaning like there's bitcoin, there's everything else. So everything else, what does that look like? They're not decentralized, censorship resistant protocols like Bitcoin is. So if we just, let's just, let's just break that down, what that means real quick. So a protocol is like a software application. It's a set of rules that is just that people decide to agree and build on. So for example, the Internet's built off of TCP ip. It's the protocol of how information packets are transferred and everyone just built on that. Now we have trillions of dollars that have been built on that Internet protocol. Nobody owns the protocol, nobody changes the protocol. We just agreed that we're all going to build on that protocol. That's what the bitcoin network is. It's an open source piece of software. Yeah, nobody owns it, nobody controls it. It's just open source software and people are agreeing to build on that. That's it.
- [32:39]
B
But not stable coin.
- [32:41]
A
No one owns it, no one's controlled it. Right, but all of cryptocurrency is different.
- [32:44]
B
Right.
- [32:45]
A
So stablecoins specifically are totally centralized. So what that means is if you want a stable coin, you give me a dollar and I give you a token back to represent the dollar. And then I'm going to hold your dollar in my account and when you're ready, you give me the token back, I'll give you the dollar back.
- [33:00]
B
Got it?
- [33:01]
A
Right. But that means it's a central entity doing that. So I'm, I'm holding all the dollars. I'm a company, I'm regulated in the United States like circle or tether. And if the government taps me on the shoulder and tells me to freeze your account, I'm going to freeze your account.
- [33:14]
B
So you're not a fan of stablecoins? Oh no.
- [33:17]
A
I mean I'm a fan of them. I think they're super useful, beneficial. But there no bitcoin, it's not the same. So what I think is that. Well, so remember I talked about at the beginning, I talked about how we sort of have two problems. Like number one, like how do we manage our purchasing for today, but how do we push value into the future? So Bitcoin allows us to push purchasing power into the future, but what do we do today? Bitcoin's volatile. If all my money's in bitcoin, I got to pay my rent next week and the price of bitcoin crashes. What do I do? So stablecoins are like short term money and bitcoin's like long term money.
- [33:50]
B
Yeah. Because you could stake stable coins. Right. Get a little percent on that.
- [33:53]
A
You could, you could, yeah, you could stake Stablecoin. And I know you're going to talk to Sailors. You should definitely talk to him about his digital credit, which is stretch. I'm sure that's always going to talk about. That's going to be fascinating. So I'll let him break that down for your audience. But stablecoins, I think, number one, most of the world, the majority of the world lives in. I think it's like 3 billion people live in very strict authoritarian regimes with double to triple digit inflation and they desperately want to get to dollars. And so the stablecoins allow people all over the world just to move into dollars.
- [34:28]
B
Got it. So that's good for that.
- [34:29]
A
Yeah, we already have a stablecoin. We already use the dollar.
- [34:32]
B
Right.
- [34:32]
A
So it's really good for them, number one. But I think where we're really going to see stablecoin adoption happen, and I think it's bullish for bitcoin is that, you know, online merchants, they take credit cards and credit, not online. Real brick and mortar merchants also take credit. So like Walmart for example.
- [34:47]
B
Right.
- [34:47]
A
They do 60 billion a year or whatever in transactions and they're paying 2 and a half or 3% in credit card transaction fees plus whatever, I don't know, 35 cents per transaction. We're talking like hundreds of millions of billions of dollars in fees and then they don't get the money for three to five days. And then someone could charge the credit card back for up to six months, especially Amex. And credit card chargebacks are a big problem. It's a billion dollar problem in the United States.
- [35:13]
B
Is it? Wow. Yeah.
- [35:15]
A
So the merchants are going to want people to start using stablecoins, Walmart is going to want you to start using stablecoins, Stripe is going to want you to start using stablecoins, and your bank is going to want you to start using stablecoins. So it's going to be massive. And I think it's going to lead people to bitcoin because what it does is it normalizes me using these digital tokens.
- [35:34]
B
Right.
- [35:34]
A
Like, I don't, I don't know about this bitcoin thing or this crypto thing. It seems kind of weird, but. Oh, dollars.
- [35:39]
B
Okay, sure.
- [35:40]
A
And you kind of. You get the wallet, you learn how to like send and receive. You get sort of like normalized on that. And then all of a sudden you're like, well, why do these dollar tokens keep buying? Why does it keep taking more and more of these dollar tokens to buy the same thing? But these bitcoin tokens, it keeps going down. So I think it's going to be a gateway drug.
- [35:57]
B
Yeah. It's like the opposite of how people are living right now.
- [36:00]
A
Yeah.
- [36:00]
B
Now everyone's like, damn, my dollar can't buy anything.
- [36:03]
A
Yeah.
- [36:03]
B
You know, sucks. Gas is seven a gallon right now.
- [36:07]
A
Not out here, is it.
- [36:08]
B
It's like 550 out here. Is it Cali? It's like 6.
- [36:11]
A
Yeah, I know.
- [36:12]
B
Crazy.
- [36:12]
A
Yeah.
- [36:12]
B
I get worse with the. Depending on the war.
- [36:14]
A
Who knows? Yeah.
- [36:15]
B
Yeah. Sailor is an interesting one. I saw him on a pod today. He. He thinks bitcoin's going to 20 mil a coin.
- [36:22]
A
But I mean, it will.
- [36:23]
B
He didn't say when, but. Yeah.
- [36:24]
A
I think the math I've broken down is a million, sometime probably in the next five years is. Which is a 10X. A 10X from here, probably 14 million by 20. 2040, and 50 million by 2050.
- [36:41]
B
Jeez.
- [36:42]
A
And it's sort of the way that I've sort of come up with those numbers is again, remember, the governments are printing money, but money is not wealth. So what happens is money is a representation of the wealth. So what happens is money flows. We use it for transactions and eventually it goes to store value assets. So eventually we park it in houses or art or stocks or bonds. So the store value assets would be stocks, bonds, real estate, gold collectibles, fine art, and then bitcoin. So there's like a basket we call store value goods. So as they continue printing more money that the value of that store value basket keeps going up, up, up. In 2010, it was about 300 trillion. By 2020, it was about 900 trillion. Now it's over a quadrillion. By 2030, it should probably be about 1.6 quadrillion by 24. And, and so this is based off of. So the government has the cbo, Congressional Budget Office, and they project out for the next 30 years how much deficit spending, what the budget will be, the income, all of that. Right. So if you just take their numbers, which I'm sure are going to be way, way, way conservative for what we actually have, but just take their numbers and look at the increase in the money supply and then you can. You can figure out what that store value basket will be, and it'll be about 8 and a half quadrillion by. By 2050. So then the question is, okay, so if that basket is eight and a half quadrillion, what percentage will real estate be? What percentage will bonds be? What percentage will gold be, et cetera?
- [38:18]
B
Right.
- [38:19]
A
So Bitcoin is going to continue to take more and more of that market share, just like Uber took took market share from taxis, but here in Vegas, you still have taxis everywhere. Taxes didn't go away, but it took some of their market share.
- [38:31]
B
Right.
- [38:32]
A
Airbnb took some market share from hotels.
- [38:34]
B
Right.
- [38:35]
A
So Bitcoin is taking some of that value from those other baskets. I told you, I started my career in real estate. I've sold all my rental properties. I just own Bitcoin now. So it took some money from real estate. I still own other houses, but. Right. I used to have a bunch of gold. Now I barely have any gold. And I have Bitcoin. So it's taken some. Right. And so if it could grow to just 8% of that basket by 2040, that puts it about 15 million per coin. Now, is 8% realistic? Well, Uber and Airbnb both captured 10% of their markets in less than 10 years.
- [39:08]
B
Wow.
- [39:09]
A
So we're talking 25 plus years of Bitcoin. So 8% seems like a pretty conservative target.
- [39:15]
B
8%. What is it at right now? What percent?
- [39:18]
A
It's a fraction of one.
- [39:19]
B
Oh, not even one?
- [39:20]
A
No.
- [39:21]
B
Okay. So it's got a long way to go.
- [39:22]
A
Yeah.
- [39:23]
B
Wow. Yeah. I have a lot of crypto friends, so sometimes you get, like, caught up in, like, it being normal, but when you zoom out, there's only a certain amount of people that own Bitcoin. Right?
- [39:30]
A
Yeah. Well, the prop. Well, I think all your crypto friends probably own Bitcoin as well.
- [39:34]
B
Yeah.
- [39:34]
A
The problem. The problem with any asset that you buy, whether it's real estate or it's gold or it's in video or Tesla or Apple, or it's a crypto token. Like, what am I buying? Why am I buying it? What does this asset do in my portfolio? Help me build wealth? What am I expecting from this asset? Like, what's the thesis there? What's the mechanism that would cause it to go up in value and over what time frame? So you should ask yourself those questions. So I'll ask people all the time, like, xrp. I know you're going to interview the guy from xrp. Why would it go up? Like, what's the mechanism.
- [40:10]
B
They always say it's tied to banking. Sure.
- [40:12]
A
Okay, so it's tied to banking. So let's play. Okay, so it's tied to bank. So you need to formulate a thesis. Right. It's tied to banking. So that means that if banks use it to transact money internationally instead of Swift.
- [40:22]
B
Yeah.
- [40:23]
A
Then more people use it. Okay, if more people use it, why would it go up in value?
- [40:31]
B
Because more people have it. No, more people buy it. Right?
- [40:34]
A
No. Velocity doesn't add value. So you know, I think they still have Chuck E. Cheese. You know, Chuck E. Cheese, you get the tokens. A lot of people use those Chuck E. Cheese tokens. But there ain't no value there. So Velocity doesn't create value. Value is utility plus scarcity because price is always supply and demand.
- [40:52]
B
Right?
- [40:53]
A
Right. So anyway, back to, back to Ripple or xrp. So the banks are going to use it to send money. So number one, what is even, what's my thesis? Why would it go up? Banks are going to use it. Okay, but how does that make it go up? So number one, number two, will that really happen? So then what I want to be doing is I want to be watching the news to is my thesis confirmed or denied? So they were going to replace Swift.
- [41:15]
B
Right.
- [41:16]
A
Except for about a month ago, if you go onto Swift's website right now, they just announced that they're building their own blockchain.
- [41:22]
B
Oh wow. I didn't know that. Holy crap.
- [41:25]
A
So then what's the thesis?
- [41:26]
B
That was their main one, right? I don't know.
- [41:28]
A
Yeah, that was the one. Right. So what you want to do, no matter what token it is, is what's the thesis? What why do I think it's going to go up? What's the mechanism that would cause to go up? And then I can start to put some valuation on that.
- [41:39]
B
Right. And with Bitcoin it's set supply. Right. Only 21 million.
- [41:42]
A
It's easy because the supply is fixed. So you only have to guess demand. The only question is, will there be more demand in the future than there is today?
- [41:48]
B
And you're betting on yes.
- [41:50]
A
Yeah. I mean just in the last two weeks you had almost every major institution come out and announce like Charles Schwab just announced that they are rolling out their own Bitcoin product. They have $12 trillion in under management assets. Under management. They're telling all their financial advisors to push 7% allocation to their risk portfolios. That's almost a trillion dollars of buying just right there alone. Goldman Sachs just announced their bitcoin product Here at this conference we had people from the US government say that within the next couple weeks the US government will announce their strategic bitcoin reserve. We had just today on stage was the from the Central bank of Prague announcing that they're buying it for their central bank. You have central banks buying it. The biggest financial institutions in the world are buying it. Their biggest institutions are telling their financial advising clients to buy it. So yeah, I think there's going to be more people that own it in the future.
- [42:35]
B
That's a major stuff.
- [42:36]
A
Yeah.
- [42:36]
B
You investing in any AI companies or AI tech at the moment?
- [42:40]
A
I'm not.
- [42:42]
B
Bubble.
- [42:43]
A
I don't think it's a bubble. I don't think it's a bubble. I think the dot com era was a bubble. And the reason why that was a bubble is that we overbuilt. So we built for a world that wasn't ready yet. So what happens in technological revolutions is that you have to build speculatively. So you're building for this future world. But if that future world doesn't come fast enough, then the demand never materializes and all of that crashes. So like when automobiles were created back in 1908, within three years there was 250 automobile manufacturers.
- [43:18]
B
Wow.
- [43:18]
A
Within three years. But there was no roads, there was no gas stations, there was no tire shops. So there was no demand and they all went bankrupt.
- [43:26]
B
Got it.
- [43:26]
A
Three remain for gmg. Right. Same thing in the dot com bubble. So the dot com we built all these companies. So at the height in 2000 it was like webvan and you know, pets.com and all these things but nobody was. You couldn't even buy stuff online. The Internet didn't really work for that right now. So they all went bust. But the AI bubble or the AI sort of part that we're in right now is we're behind demand. We can't build it fast enough. So Sam Altman from OpenAI said that they have way more advanced models that they could roll out right now, but they don't have the energy for it. There are the data centers for it.
- [43:58]
B
Oh wow.
- [43:59]
A
So we're way behind on data centers, we're way behind on energy. And the data centers take time. We're talking years to get built out. So we have a way that we have a physical supply shortage of minerals, of copper, of these things, the water to water. The data centers have to get built out. We're talking years. So we're way behind the curve of the demand interest. There's way more demand than they can, they can fulfill today. So it's the opposite. Now does that mean companies go up and some go down? No, I mean, of course they do.
- [44:28]
B
Well, a lot of them aren't profitable yet.
- [44:30]
A
Yeah, they're not profitable. They're building for that future world. Right. But I just think the demand is way further in front of them. They can, they can achieve. So I don't, I don't see that as a bubble.
- [44:39]
B
Yeah.
- [44:40]
A
Yeah. I don't know. I don't know which ones to invest into.
- [44:42]
B
Same.
- [44:43]
A
It's, it's, it's evolving so fast. You know, it's like in my, in my, in my office, we built like the Mac Mini.
- [44:50]
B
Yeah.
- [44:51]
A
And got the clock.
- [44:51]
B
Claude bot.
- [44:52]
A
Cloud bot, you know. But by the time we had all that figured out, then Claude announced their like cowork.
- [44:56]
B
Yeah.
- [44:56]
A
And it's like you don't even need that anymore, you know?
- [44:58]
B
Yeah.
- [44:58]
A
So that's pretty interesting. I'm more focused on, you know, through the bitcoin opportunity fund, our fund, I'm more focused on the intersection of AI and bitcoin.
- [45:07]
B
What's that looking like?
- [45:08]
A
Yeah. So super interesting. Super. I think this is the super interesting part. So we have obviously AI, but AI is like, do you use a computer? But like a computer for what?
- [45:21]
B
Right.
- [45:21]
A
So it's like AI is super broad. Now we have the agentic side of things popping off like cloud cowork.
- [45:27]
B
Right.
- [45:28]
A
And McKinsey, which is one of the top consulting firms in the country, they project that agent to agent Commerce will be $5 trillion by 2030.
- [45:36]
B
Holy cow.
- [45:37]
A
That's in four years from now. So agent to agent. So not, not me using my agent, but my agent hiring other agents.
- [45:43]
B
Yeah. That's insane.
- [45:46]
A
So how does an agent actually hold money, spend money, transfer money? What would they even need to pay for? How much would they pay? How would that even work? Like, so then you start thinking those questions. It's an interesting thought experiment. We're trying to sort of fit AI and humanoids into a human world. Like we're trying to make a robot that has a hand that can open a doorknob. But why do we even need a doorknob? Like, right. So we have to kind of think through things like that. So anyway, so if we have agent Age of Commerce, what are they going to pay for? Well, they're going to hire other agents and they'll pay for compute and energy. Now the way the Internet works today, the whole Internet was built off of an ad supported model. So before I came out Here to Las Vegas. I went on to weather.com to see what the weather would be like. But weather.com, how do they pay for that website? I see, I see banners, right? But if my agent goes to check the weather, how do they get paid?
- [46:42]
B
Oh, it wouldn't count as an ad view, right?
- [46:45]
A
Agent ain't seeing no ads.
- [46:46]
B
Not a human.
- [46:47]
A
Yeah. So right off the bat we have to kind of start rethinking that. So what will happen is the agent will have to go pay for like an API call. So maybe however much the website charges on one banner impression per visitor, like they'll charge a fraction of a penny, right? Okay. It's impossible to send a penny across the Internet.
- [47:06]
B
Zelle.
- [47:07]
A
You can't send, you can't send a penny.
- [47:08]
B
It's too small.
- [47:09]
A
It's too small. A credit card charges 2.5% plus 35 cents per transaction. So how do you send less than 35 cents?
- [47:18]
B
Right.
- [47:19]
A
Now imagine that my agent is going to book my travel and it's checking the travel site and checking the weather a hundred times a day. And it's being charged 35 cents a hundred times, right?
- [47:29]
B
It's too much.
- [47:30]
A
It's too much. Also, in order to have a bank account, I have to be a person. I have to pass. What's kyc? Know your customer. AML means our entire financial system, the global financial system is permissioned today. 20, I think it's 25. It's, it's 1.4 billion adults in the world today don't have banking.
- [47:51]
B
Really?
- [47:52]
A
They don't have permission to join the
- [47:53]
B
banking system because they don't have identification.
- [47:56]
A
They don't have identification. They were born in their, their 13 year old kid that was born in a sanctioned country. They had to escape Syria and now they don't have their paper whatever, whatever it may be. Or in some nations they can't afford a bank account. Like we typically carry balances and we get our bank for free. But in other countries they got to pay 25 bucks a month. They can't afford 25 bucks a month. 50% of the world lives on less than $5 a day.
- [48:20]
B
Holy crap, I did not know that.
- [48:23]
A
75% of the world lives on less Than 10. Yeah, we have to kind of think about that as America, as Americans. America is only 4% of the global population. 4%. So anyway, you have to have permission to join. 25 of the adults in the world don't have permission to join. They can't get it. So you have to Be a person. You have to have paperwork. If you fill out a paperwork to get a bank. But a AI agent can't do that. You can't transact less than 35 cents, much less a fraction of a penny, much less a fraction of a penny, a thousand times in a day. So the agents are going to need a different, a different financial system. They can't, they can't transact that way. So bitcoin is specifically built this way. What's interesting, you ever, I'm sure you've ever been browsing the Internet and you've gotten like a four or four error page. Well, there's one called 402 and 402 was built in the original Internet stack and it's for payments. It was built in the original stack for native payments on the Internet. And now bitcoin is plugged right in. And now you can transfer bitcoin and the agents can transfer bitcoin and the agents can do a tenth of a fraction of a penny worth of bitcoin and they can trade that a thousand times in an hour, back and forth.
- [49:32]
B
Interesting. What about the fee, though? Isn't that more than a penny to transfer bitcoin?
- [49:36]
A
No, there's no fee. Yeah. So they'll use Bitcoin and then on layer two, we have lightning. So they can use lightning. They can open up a channel between them too. And they could transact a thousand times and they batch and just close it.
- [49:47]
B
Whoa.
- [49:47]
A
And it's like a fraction of a penny to do that.
- [49:49]
B
Yeah. Right now with my agent, I have to preload money. I have to give it like thousands, you know, to browse sites and do stuff for me.
- [49:55]
A
Oh, you're doing that?
- [49:56]
B
I use Manus AI agent.
- [49:58]
A
Oh, okay. Yeah. But you're just paying for credits. Credits on Manus.
- [50:01]
B
Yeah.
- [50:01]
A
Your, your agent's not actually paying for access.
- [50:04]
B
I see what you're saying. They're going to have to develop something in the future because there's so many AI bots, browsing sites. Right. Ads aren't going to be worth anything.
- [50:10]
A
Yeah. So that's super interesting. And what, what we, what we have right now, as I said, right. The AI boom is, is behind demand. So bitcoin mining has grown really big in the United States. Texas being the leader. And so bitcoin has built in their own data centers, built in their own power and their own connections. And now AI, what we call high power compute is starting to move into those bitcoin mining facilities because they already have the energy. What's Interesting is you have AI data centers merging with bitcoin mining. And so now those two are working together. And so literally it's almost like I built the parking garage and now I'm building the skyscraper. We built the base layer of money with bitcoin and now we're putting the AI agents on top of that, which is pretty interesting.
- [50:57]
B
That's exciting.
- [50:58]
A
Yeah. So I think that's, I think that's super exciting. That's one way that we see it happening. And then what happens is let's say that, you know, right now we're seeing a lot of people using AI agents to help do some trading. Like I was talking to someone, they built one up that just trades kalshi, like prediction markets, you know. And so then what happens is we start having agents help people manage their corporate treasury, their personal treasury, whatever it is. There was a, there was a research report that came out in March by the Bitcoin Policy Institute. And they did this. 36 of the top LLMs, over 9,000 independent monetary tests. And the agents all said 79% of them agreed that bitcoin was the best option to use to preserve purchasing power. And they thought stablecoins were the best for short term transactions by 56%. Wow. Yeah, that's a pretty big pool. It's a big, it's a big pool.
- [51:55]
B
36 LLMs, you said?
- [51:57]
A
Yeah, 36 of the top LMS, 9,000 different tests. So then what happens is, is then you have, you have agents that are helping us manage the treasury and they start recommending bitcoin to people.
- [52:06]
B
Wow.
- [52:06]
A
So there's a lot of ways that bitcoin and AI are going to merge together.
- [52:11]
B
That's cool. Yeah, can't wait for that. Well, dude, this was great. Where can people find your show and keep up with you and learn more from you?
- [52:16]
A
Yeah, I mean, I, I do a couple videos a week on YouTube talking about the financial system, talking about how we protect and build our wealth into the future. So just search mark us, check them out, guys.
- [52:24]
B
We'll link it below. Thanks for coming on, man. Yeah, yeah, see ya.
- [52:27]
A
Thanks for staying all the way to the end, guys. It means a lot to me.
- [52:30]
B
If you could please leave a review on Apple that helps us climb the charts, it helps us get way more guests and it helps us continue growing the podcast and the team. So it would mean a lot to me if you left a review on Apple or wherever else you're listening. Thanks so much.