Masculinity Is Being Used Against Men... | Itscomplicatedchannel | DSH #1942

Summary

Digital Social Hour – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Masculinity Is Being Used Against Men... | Itscomplicatedchannel | DSH #1942
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Jonathan (ItsComplicated Channel)
Date: April 30, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Sean Kelly sits down with Jonathan, creator of the ItsComplicated YouTube channel known for street interviews and thought-provoking questions on dating dynamics, gender roles, and men’s issues. The discussion dives deep into the evolving landscape of masculinity, the flaws and contradictions in the manosphere and red pill communities, the roots of systemic gynocentrism, the decline of traditional marriage, and the lack of genuine advocacy for modern men’s rights. With raw, unfiltered dialogue, both guest and host reflect on the often paradoxical expectations placed on men and question commonly held narratives around gender and society.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Identity, Anonymity, and Cancel Culture

• Jonathan’s Early Approach: Stayed relatively anonymous out of fear of being "canceled" for controversial topics before red pill content went mainstream ([00:30-00:54]).
• Shifting Limits: Both Jonathan and Sean note that while cancel culture once felt omnipresent, today only the most egregious offenses truly threaten someone’s career. Jonathan observes, “A lot of people are kind of like pushing the edge of the Overton window...what is actually, you know, cancelable at this point?” ([01:39]).

2. Evolution of Content Style

• Content Shift: Jonathan explains his move from open, conversational interviews (initially “gotcha” style) to more concise, question-driven formats, and his willingness to challenge not only feminists but also conservatives and the red pill space itself.
  • Quote: “I was challenging mostly feminists, but I also realized that... conservatives are also a big part of the problem...there’s a lot of issues I have with the red pill in the manosphere space. I think that that is in a lot of ways working against itself.” ([01:59-02:31])

3. The Manosphere’s Contradictions

• Individualism vs. Collective Action: Jonathan critiques the manosphere’s overwhelming emphasis on self-improvement as a “cope”, arguing for a movement towards civil rights and legal reform instead of endless self-blaming and self-sculpting ([06:16-08:43]).
  • “There’s so many inconsistencies, it doesn’t make sense. And nobody ever pushes back on these people because they surround themselves with their own people. And so it’s just one big echo chamber.” ([07:51])
• Weaponizing Masculinity: He believes modern masculinity is often used to control—and even oppress—men, as expectations and traditional roles ultimately increase men’s disposability and societal pressures ([17:54-18:36]).
  • “Masculinity is almost a slave collar for men now.” ([17:56])
• Binary Framing: Jonathan laments that men are pressured to embody extremes: “If you’re not this super macho masculine alpha male, that automatically means you want to put on a dress and wear makeup. There’s no in-between.” ([07:26])

4. Gynocentrism & Historical Gender Bias

• Beyond Feminism: Jonathan asserts that blaming feminism misses the deeper societal “gynocentrism”—a systemic bias favoring women that predates modern feminism ([09:30-10:54]).
  • “If feminism disappeared tomorrow, gynocentrism would still exist.”
• Chivalry’s Role: He connects chivalry (women-and-children-first mentality) to systemic legal and cultural biases—examples include family court, custody laws, and the social expectation that men assume sacrificial roles ([11:51-13:14]).
• Traditional Marriage Isn’t So Traditional: The “1950s nuclear family” is not the eternal standard—dowry systems, arranged marriages, and other norms lasted far longer in history, often placing women with “skin in the game,” resulting in different dynamics and risks ([36:32-37:59]).

5. Men’s Rights, Dating, and Anti-Solutions

• Men as Second-Class Citizens: Jonathan points out that men are often seen as the group that must adapt, sacrifice, and assume the risk—culturally and legally ([17:19]).
  • “Men seem to care more about getting laid than they care about their rights.”
• Self-Improvement and ‘Cope’ Culture: Gym gains, “looksmaxxing,” “bossing up,” Passport Bros, AI girlfriends—all are, per Jonathan, symptoms (coping mechanisms) of a society not built for men’s wellbeing ([32:52]).
  • “Everything is a cope for the fact that we live in a society that hates men.” ([32:52])
• Marriage as High-Risk: Both men agree that marriage’s legal framework currently exposes men to significant financial and emotional hazard, making it a losing proposition for many ([24:27-24:51]; [39:21-39:33]).

6. Solutions, Reforms and “Taboo” Policies

• Civil Rights and Legal Reform: Jonathan calls for collective action and legal change over endless self-improvement, including reforms in family law and child custody ([10:40], [25:40]).
• Legalizing Prostitution: He advocates for regulated sex work as a way to safely and affordably meet men’s needs and level the gendered playing field ([25:47-28:46]):
  • “If men could go get their needs met any time they wanted, safely, accessibly, affordably, I don’t think there’d be any reason to be with a woman other than love...I think it would be a safer society, it’d be a happier society, it would probably generate billions of dollars.” ([27:35])

7. Debates and the Fragmentation of Online Men’s Communities

• Lack of Cross-Pollination: Jonathan wishes more manosphere creators would debate each other, not just feminists or traditionalists—arguing there are critical rifts between red pill, black pill, self-improvement, tradcons, and genuine men’s rights activists:
  • “Red pillars and tradcons...are looking almost to un-liberate women, whereas I am not trying to un-liberate women, I’m trying to liberate men. That’s the difference.” ([16:06])

8. Frequently Unaddressed Men’s Issues

• Circumcision as Bodily Autonomy: Jonathan raises the lack of discussion on male circumcision, viewing it as a neglect of men’s bodily autonomy and another societal blind spot ([42:35-43:43]).

9. The Cultural Dimension

• Male and Female Dynamics Shift Over Time: Jonathan challenges the belief in immutable “female nature,” suggesting that massive cultural shifts can—and have—transformed gender relations, with historical references such as finishing schools and the dowry system ([21:57-22:22]; [34:15-34:54]).
• Deregulated Sexual Marketplace: The move from at-fault to no-fault divorce and from dowries to the current system has fundamentally shifted the risks and incentives in relationships, leading to the present imbalance ([35:19-37:19]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Men’s Rights vs. Getting Laid:
  “Men seem to care more about getting laid than they care about their rights. And right now it’s like men are second class citizens to women.”
  — Jonathan ([00:00])

• On the Red Pill Echo Chamber:
  “...nobody ever pushes back on these people because they surround themselves with their own people. And so it’s just one big echo chamber.”
  — Jonathan ([07:51])

• On Weaponized Masculinity:
  “Masculinity is almost a slave collar for men now.”
  — Jonathan ([17:56])

• On Cultural Change:
  “If there’s an attack on masculinity, it’s an attack on men, because masculinity is the first thing anyone will attack when they want to control men. And conversely, it’s the first thing promoted when they want to control men. So masculinity is basically defined based on what benefits the person defining it.”
  — Jonathan ([18:16])

• On the Marriage Marketplace:
  “Is marriage and family only going to be a luxury now that only a few people can afford?”
  — Jonathan ([23:28])

• On the Dowry System:
  “[The dowry] was a pre-mortem inheritance the father would give...so she could basically show up to a marriage and bring...Sometimes it was linen, sometimes it was goats, sometimes it was trade routes, depending on your economic status...So the whole Cinderella story—that wasn’t even a real thing...”
  — Jonathan ([36:32-37:59])

• On Circumcision:
  “We talk about women’s bodily autonomy...before men even, you know, form a conscious thought, they already have a doctor snipping them in their most private area.”
  — Jonathan ([43:10])

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Important Segment Timestamps

| Time | Segment Description | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00 | Opening critique: Men focus on sex at the expense of rights | | 01:59 | Jonathan’s content evolution & challenging all sides | | 06:16 | Critique of the manosphere: From self-improvement to systemic advocacy | | 09:30 | Gynocentrism: the deeper issue beyond feminism | | 11:51 | Chivalry, legal systems, and systemic bias | | 16:06 | Fragmentation in men’s online spaces: red pill, black pill, tradcon, MRAs | | 17:54 | Masculinity as social control: “slave collar” and male disposability | | 24:27 | Marriage as a hazardous risk for men, prenups, and the power imbalance | | 25:47 | Push for legalizing & normalizing prostitution as men’s rights issue | | 32:52 | AI girlfriends, sex robots, prawn and cope culture | | 34:54 | Passport bros: shifting culture, not immutable female nature | | 35:19 | Deregulation of sexual marketplace, dowry system, and the true history of “traditional” marriage | | 42:35 | Circumcision: men’s bodily autonomy and overlooked issues by manosphere | | 43:56 | Jonathan’s platforms and call to action |

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Tone & Language

• Candid, Critical, Analytical: Both Jonathan and Sean maintain a no-holds-barred tone. Jonathan’s critiques are sharp but generally focused on ideas, not personal attacks.
• Invitational: Jonathan repeatedly states his desire for real debate and open discussions, signaling frustration with echo chambers.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive, incisive critique of mainstream men’s rights discourse, calling out both feminists and conservative “tradcon” approaches for perpetuating systems that leave men without real solutions. Jonathan advocates for a new wave of collective action and legal reform, pushes taboo debates (like legalized sex work and critiquing circumcision), and urges listeners to question received narratives about “masculinity,” relationship history, and what liberation for men should actually look like.

For those think-tanking solutions to modern gender dilemmas, this is a must-listen episode—crammed with challenging questions, sharp contradictions, and a fresh, radical perspective on the future of men’s advocacy.

Transcript

[Jonathan]

Men seem to care more about getting laid than they care about their rights. And right now it's like men are second class citizens to women. I mean, these manosphere creators will say things like, women live life on easy mode. Well, isn't another way to frame that to say that men are oppressed?

[Interviewer]

All right, guys, we got another Vegas local, someone that's interviewed more people than me, which is really rare. You know, we got Jonathan from It's Complicated channel. You've probably seen his clips, but the Face is going to come out more this year.

[Jonathan]

That's right.

[Interviewer]

Yep. Yeah, you're more behind the scenes. Was that intentional? Did you want to go that route at first, kind of be anonymous?

[Jonathan]

Yeah, because I was kind of worried about being canceled or being 86 from certain places. Because, I mean, this stuff was really controversial when it first started coming out. And then now that you've got the whole red pill manosphere space blowing up all over the Internet, I mean, they're saying stuff that's even way more outrageous than anything Ami been saying. So I kind of feel more safe to kind of.

[Interviewer]

That's how I felt. I started the show three years ago. I felt like it was a little more safe. Biden was just ending his presidency and there was a lot of censorship under him. So I felt like the timing was right for me to kind of emerge, you know, and now it's like you could say whatever you want.

[Jonathan]

I mean, they're saying, they're saying, you know, repeal the 19th Amendment. They're saying, you know, send women back to the kitchen. I mean, they're saying crazy stuff that I don't. I don't go quite that far. But a lot of, you know, rage baiting content is, you know, what gets the clicks right now.

[Interviewer]

So, yeah, I feel like cancel culture is pretty much dead other than the PDF stuff, like the Epstein stuff. If you're caught on that, like, there's some people getting really canceled right now. Sure. Mark Peter, if you know him not, he's a doctor, there were some wild names on that list. But I feel like you could come back from most things. But that's like the line for everyone PDF stuff. Yeah.

[Jonathan]

A lot of people are kind of like pushing the edge of the Overton window, you know, how far can we, you know, be on the scale of what is actually, you know, cancelable at this point?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, but you've been doing this for how many years now?

[Jonathan]

This is about six years now.

[Interviewer]

Wow, that's a long time. Not many people make it that long. Thank you you know what I mean? Have you kind of adjusted the style over time or.

[Jonathan]

When I first started, it was more just kind of like loose, open conversations. And now it's kind of more like question answer. And I try to make it concise. You know, some of the earlier stuff was a little more like gotcha. And now I'm kind of just like. And I was challenging mostly feminists. But then I also realized that, you know, conservatives are also a big part of the problem, also known as tradcons. And there's also a lot of issues that I have, which is the red pill in the manosphere space. I think that that is in a lot of ways working against itself.

[Interviewer]

So you got smoke with everyone?

[Jonathan]

Yeah, kind of. Yeah. I think everybody, I think everybody needs a little bit of pushback. And who needs to be challenged? Because I think a lot of these influencers, they're kind of talking at people, they're not talking to people.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I've come to almost a similar conclusion because I, I was definitely against feminists. Maybe like five years ago when red pill was really emerging. I would even label myself red pill. Five years ago, sure. But now I feel like the red pill is a little too much.

[Jonathan]

A lot of people almost want to call themselves red pill adjacent or they kind of want to distance themselves from the red pill. So it's kind of like what is pushing people away from it. And, you know, if we're getting away from red pill, what are, what's the next incarnation? You know, I mean, like, where are we headed?

[Interviewer]

For sure. Yeah. I wonder why it's had such a downfall. Because it was really hot during the pandemic. Red pill. Yeah, it was huge.

[Jonathan]

Yeah, no, I, I mean, I noticed even in my views, I mean, my stuff was blowing up and now, I mean, I've had people in my comments section saying, what's happened to your channel? The algorithm isn't favoring you. Are you shadow banned? That's been happening with a lot of creators and there's a lot of demonetizations, all sorts of stuff. So I don't know if there's censorship going on or really what's happening, but I'm just trying to figure out what's going on. And that's why I do my interviews, because I'm just trying to just ask questions to everybody and say, you know, what is true, what's factual and what is just basically propaganda.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Have you seen a lot of shifts in the six year period with Mindset when it comes, you interview mainly women, right?

[Jonathan]

Yes. Well, I would say that, you know, a lot of the women that I talk to, they still continue to blame men. They say, you know, like, the male loneliness epidemic is self inflicted. Men created the system, they made their own problems. And it's just, I. I don't know. In some ways, I think that there are some women I talk to who do show a little bit of empathy for the struggles that men go through, but some just, you know, dig in and go even deeper into the misandry that we've been seeing.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I wonder if they can truly have empathy. Empathy, because they can put themselves in our shoes.

[Jonathan]

I mean, I think the world would be a much better place if everyone could put everyone else, put themselves in someone else's shoes.

[Interviewer]

But, yeah, easier said than done though, right? For most people, of course. Yeah. I don't know if we'll ever reach that point in society.

[Jonathan]

Well, I mean, I. It just depends on framing how you frame certain issues. I mean, obviously women are emotional and so you can kind of try to say, okay, is this the equivalent of this? You know what I mean? If you were. I don't know if we switch bodies. I, I've asked women before, I said, you know, if you feel like men have harder or. Sorry, if you feel like women struggle more than men, would you be willing to trade places with a man?

[Interviewer]

That's a good question. And most say no, right?

[Jonathan]

A lot of them. Well, yeah, that's, that's kind of the. But I mean, there was like this really famous video about, I think her name was Nora Vincent and she was a lesbian who decided to disguise herself and live, I think, for a full year as a man. And a lot of the manosphere creators actually talked about her story and she ended up self deleting. She kind of just went through a whole traumatic experience and, you know, just living life as a man. And what I find interesting is that a lot of the manosphere creators have talked about, you know, her experience and how hard it was, but then they still want men to embrace the same masculinity that, you know, drove her to madness, essentially.

[Interviewer]

Interesting. So, yeah, I gotta look into it. I haven't heard of that one. So she ended her own life or what?

[Jonathan]

She ended her own. Her own life.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Jonathan]

But I know that, like, there are other big creators who have, you know, said, you know, we want to just, you know, pay our respects to Nora Vincent. And so it's kind of like, okay, but you're saying that you want men to still kind of like go through the Same awful experiences that she went through that drove her to madness. So it's kind of. I don't know, I just see a little bit of a contradiction or discrepancy there.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that is interesting. When it comes to the manosphere, in the red pill, what's your biggest gripe with these guys? Like, people like Sartain Fresh and Fit, like those types of shows?

[Jonathan]

I. I think that the biggest issue is, I think it's just become this grift, and I look at it as mainly just gynocentric cope. It's basically. I mean, if you're going to tell me that looks maxing isn't a cope, I mean, now, I mean, when women had to go through all these, you know, ridiculous beauty standards, they got eating disorders and, you know, that was a big problem. But now we're going to do bone smashing and we're going to reconstruct our face or, you know, you're going to complain about something called Hoeflation. You know, men have to work five times harder than their grandfathers did, for women, 20 times worse. And yet everyone's. Everyone's advice is just boss up, level up, self improvement. You're essentially telling men to work five times harder. So why are you promoting the very thing that we're complaining about? And so I look at the whole thing and I say we need civil rights, not self improvement. I'm not against the idea of self improvement, but I would like to see the manosphere focus more on collective action and not individual action. There's way too much blame on men, and they want to frame it as if you're not this super macho masculine alpha male that automatically means you want to put on a dress and wear makeup. There's no in between. It's a. Just framed as this binary. It's this bubblegum thinking it's either this or it's that. And, you know, I mean, I've heard influencers say things like, you know, men are superior to women in every possible way, but then we're also a bunch of broke losers living in a basement. So which is it? Are we exceptional because we're men, or are we a bunch of losers? So it's just there's so many inconsistencies, it doesn't make sense. And nobody ever pushes back on these people because they surround themselves with their own people. And so it's just this one big echo chamber.

[Interviewer]

That's why I think the debate format's pretty useful these days.

[Jonathan]

Yeah, I appreciate that you're doing that, but a Lot of times, you know, it's like they use biology, evolutionary biology, or evolutionary psychology to kind of justify everything. You know, women can't be held accountable because of their female nature. Well, then why is everyone trying to change men? Why. Why can't we?

[Interviewer]

Just Both ways. Yeah.

[Jonathan]

Right. And so it's just, you know, when I started interviewing feminists, it was always questioning the double standards in feminism. There's plenty of double standards in the manosphere red pill space.

[Interviewer]

That's true.

[Jonathan]

So why are we not calling that out? And what ends up happening is a lot of times also when they say these ridiculous things like, repeal the 19th. Women shouldn't vote. Get back in the kitchen. You know, you're only making any legitimate male advocacy look terrible. Like, now we're just. You're basically giving feminists the ammunition to just label us all a bunch of misogynists. And I'll challenge people, but I'm not trying to basically attack and belittle. I mean, it could be perceived that way sometimes, but, I mean, you want to get mad at a question, get mad at a question, but, I mean, I'm not. And then we hear these other things like, well, since men are physically stronger, we can all come together and take away women's rights. I think this is called the force doctrine. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Repeal the 19th.

[Jonathan]

Repeal the 19th. We could take women's rights. Well, if men could all come together, why wouldn't we all just come together and just improve our situation? Men don't even have their own rights, and yet we're all gonna come together and take away women's rights. It's just there's so many problems. And so I wanna call that out because ultimately, I do want to see some actual radical change. One other thing I was gonna mention is that a lot of these guys blame feminism. Feminism is the only problem. Feminism is not the only problem. In my opinion. Feminism is a symptom of a much larger problem called gynocentrism. Gynocentrism basically means a culture or a society that has a bias in favor of women. And what I'm telling you is that if feminism disappeared tomorrow, gynocentrism would still exist. And so you can't just sit here and say, oh, feminism is the problem. No, guess gynocentrism is the problem. And these other manosphere creators will acknowledge that we live in a gynocentric society, but they'll just throw their hands up and say, that's just. It is what it is.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan]

And they won't we need to actually have some type of collective action and have some type of legal changes, cultural changes, things like that, instead of just telling men we have to navigate the problem rather than fix the problem.

[Interviewer]

That's an interesting point. So when did gynocentrism take off? Because we haven't always been that way in America, right?

[Jonathan]

I don't believe so. I mean, some people might say that gynocentrism is natural. Like men just have this biological wiring to want to protect women and children. I do think that there is this concept of chivalry. Chivalry and gynocentrism, I think kind of go hand in hand, basically. Like, I'm a big follower of Paul Elam and Paul Elam was in the original Red Pill documentary. And that kind of is what inspired me to, you know, get active in this, in this space. But Paul Elam's version of Red Pill is very different than Rolo's version of Red Pill. Paul Elam's version of Red Pill is very much civil rights based, whereas Rolo's is more like a dating manual and how to build attraction, things like that.

[Interviewer]

Got it.

[Jonathan]

But Paul Elam wrote a book with a another guy named Peter Wright. And Peter Wright runs a website called gynocentrism.com which kind of talks about all this stuff. But they wrote a book called Chivalry A Gynocentric Tradition. Chivalry is basically the idea of women and children first. Men get down on one knee, women on a pedestal, you give up your seat for a woman, things like that. So it's this, it's this bias and, and chivalry. I mean, a lot of the manosphere creators will say things like chivalry is dead and feminism killed it. Yeah, but I don't believe that's true at all. Because men are still expected typically to approach women, ask them out, pick them up, pay for dates, make the first move. What part of all of that is in chivalry? And on top of that, if there's an emergency situation, we still save women and children first. And it's not just romantic chivalry, because you see a lot of that in the romantic model of how we court and date, things like that. But you also see chivalry in this concept or, sorry, you see chivalry on a systemic level because it's permeated all of our laws and institutions. And I think that is why we have a bias in the family court system that favors women. We have the tender years doctrine that's why women typically get custody of children, things like that.

[Interviewer]

That was a big topic in the. Did you watch the Pearl Anna debate?

[Jonathan]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that was a big topic like men's rights and women's rights. What did you think of that debate? Because I know you're kind of friendly with Pearl and.

[Jonathan]

Yeah, I thought that when she was reading, she did great. I thought that when she was kind of off script, there were a few deer in the headlights moments and she. She mentioned that debating is not her strong suit. I mean, some people are just not quick on their feet. But I've seen Pearl do some exceptional debates. I think she was on, like, Jubilee or something like that. So she's done really well before and she's done good with statistics. I personally thought that her final thought was amazing. I just wish that she read it more slowly because she kind of rushed through it. But there might have been a time constraint.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Jonathan]

So I understand. I definitely will give credit to Pearl, though, for the fact that she does kind of approach things from a little bit more of a men's rights perspective and not just pushing all the self improvement stuff that everyone else pushes.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan]

And I also, I mean, she's doing a divorce documentary. I think that's good. I love the debate that she did with Michael Knowles. I mean, I would be intimidated to do some of those debates that she's.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. With the live audience and, you know, thousands watching live.

[Jonathan]

Yeah. Or just going up against these, you know, these heavy hitters. So I definitely give her credit for that. But I think that, you know, you have to try different things. I mean, I've done street interviews and now I'm trying to, you know, get more into the. The podcast space.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan]

You know, so everything's going to be a little bit of a growing, growing experience. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Anna's got a lot of experience under her belt, too.

[Jonathan]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

20 years of debates and podcasts. Yeah. So I think that gave her a huge advantage. Because what I've realized with debates is the person that's objectively right doesn't always win, which is kind of a hard concept for people to grasp.

[Jonathan]

Yeah. But in some cases, too, I'm like, okay, why not get somebody who actually, you know, is a men's rights activist who has. Who is really familiar with, you know, child support or family law or something like that. You could have like a James Sexton or something like that up there.

[Interviewer]

That'd be good. I don't know. Yeah. Debates are tough to organize because you need someone that has a similar social media following and then they gotta approve and then you got to get them all in the same place. There's a lot that goes into it. Okay. You know, I think a lot of people, like I try to line up debates all the time and people turn them down. You know what I mean? But shout out to both of them because that wasn't easy.

[Jonathan]

Yeah, we all have our wish lists. I mean, obviously. One thing I've, I've said before is I wanted to see more of the creators in the space talk to each other because you know, there are red pillars, there are black pillars, there's, you know, the self improvement guys, there are the men's rights guys. There are, you know, guys who just so. So there's so many different voices in the space. There are the tradcons and I want to see them all debating each other. But usually it's just the red pill guys debating.

[Interviewer]

Or feminists.

[Jonathan]

The feminists. Or it's the tradcon guys debating the feminists. And I think that the men's rights guys and the tradcon guys need to go.

[Interviewer]

That's good feedback. Thank you. I'll try to set the.

[Jonathan]

Because. Because that's the thing, I think that where I typically come from, I think the thing that separates me is that a lot of these other creators, I think the red pillars and the tradcons, traditional conservatives, they're looking almost to un liberate women, whereas I am not trying to un liberate women, I'm trying to liberate men. That's the difference. That's what separates me. I don't think those other guys want to liberate men. I think they want men in their traditional roles. They're telling men to embrace traditional masculinity. The problem I have with traditional masculinity is traditional masculinity often ends up placing men in sacrificial disposable roles. When going back to what I said earlier about Paul Elam and the original Red Pill documentary, the original Red Pill documentary, directed by Cassie J. And heavily featured Paul Elam, was about male disposability and men's rights. But now the space has kind of been co opted and now it's all about self improvement and dating advice.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Because that gets way more views.

[Jonathan]

Yeah. But it's not actually addressing the real issues.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan]

I mean, when was the last time that any of the manosphere creators talked about circumcision?

[Interviewer]

No, I've never heard them talk about that.

[Jonathan]

They don't talk about that. They don't Talk about male disposability. It's just men seem to care more about getting laid than they care about their rights. That's so true. And right now it's like men are second class citizens to women. I mean, these manosphere creators will say things like, women live life on easy mode. Well, isn't another way to frame that to say that men are oppressed? But we don't wanna say that men are oppressed because, oh, now you have a victim mindset. Well, what's wrong with having a victim mindset if you're actually being victimized? But men can't be seen as victims because we're expected to man up.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's considered soft, they say.

[Jonathan]

Yes. And so what's happening is that masculinity has been weaponized to control men. I think that masculinity is almost a slave collar for men now. What happens is, I mean, even outside of red pill spaces, even if you look at, like, you know, a lot of the conservative spaces, they're saying things like, there's an attack on masculinity.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Jonathan]

I don't think it's an attack on masculinity. I think it's an attack on men because masculinity is the first thing anyone will attack when they want to control men. And conversely, it's the first thing promoted when they want to control men. So masculinity is basically defined based on what benefits the person defining it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that was a big thing that Rose Tate to start on, was the whole toxic masculinity movement. Right? Attack on masculinity. Yeah.

[Jonathan]

But then at the same time, you know, if you're fighting toxic masculinity and you're telling men to embrace masculinity, it's like, why? Why do men want to keep themselves in these roles that oppress them? They're complaining about the same thing that they're promoting. It's like the. It's like a dog chasing its tail. The men's movement is working against itself. And if you look back at, like the 1970s, there was a prominent men's advocate who's still around. His name is Warren Farrell. And there's pictures of him, black and white photos from the 1970s. He was pushing a men's liberation movement, and it was all about liberating men from the masculine burden of performance that guys like Sartain are promoting. And it's like, well, why are you promoting the very thing that the men's movement used to be? You know, I mean, wow.

[Interviewer]

So it's really changed that much in 2020.

[Jonathan]

The men's movement is, is, is a complete 180. It's promoting the very opposite of what it used to be promoting. And there is photographic evidence of, of Warren Farrell holding a sign that said men are more than success objects. So he was trying to bring out the humanity in men versus someone like Sartain, who's saying there are three genders. And if you're. There are. What does he say? He says there are high status men, women and low status men.

[Interviewer]

Oh, right.

[Jonathan]

So if you're not the 10% of men, if you're the bottom 90% of men, you're a third gender. Is, is that male advocacy? That sounds pretty dehumanizing to me.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. A big thing they say is like, you need to be an elite man, a top 1% man. You need to make a lot of money, you need to look good, you need to do all this stuff. Right.

[Jonathan]

Why has our culture come to assess the average man as unacceptable and he has to change and improve? And when you're telling men to do that, you're telling men to work five times harder than their grandfathers did. Which is exactly what the Hoeflation problem that they're all complaining about is.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan]

So we can't see that they're promoting the very problem they're complaining about. And no one seems to recognize this.

[Interviewer]

It is ironic. Do you see any truth to them saying that? I think, what is it, 80% of women go for 20% of guys?

[Jonathan]

No. I mean, I understand there are some things that the red pill does get right. Obviously. I think that, you know, women, women are going to. Technically, you know, women are going to choose the top percent of men just because. Yes. I mean, if you have more options, you're going to choose your best options.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Jonathan]

But if you flip it the other way, I mean, I made an episode about this called what if men dated the same way that women do? You know, male hypergamy. You know, what if men said, okay, I'm only going to top that. Choose the top 10 or 20% of women in terms of looks, femininity, things like that. Then you would see a massive push for women to get plastic surgery or they would be in the gym all the time. I mean, the, the beauty standards for women would be even more. Or the, the beauty industry or the self improvement industry for women would be the same thing we see for men right now.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Jonathan]

There would be a massive grind culture for women. And it's kind of, it's kind of ironic because I Think we did used to see that there was, back in, I think it was like the 40s, women used to have to go to finishing school for etiquette training.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Jonathan]

I, I believe so, yeah. So if a woman realized that she had to lock down a man, just any man, because men made the money. And so women, you know, this was back when women needed men, then women had to make sure that they conformed and sculpted themselves according to men's preferences so men would choose them and women could have a decent life.

[Interviewer]

That's interesting. Times have changed.

[Jonathan]

Yeah, it's, it's kind of a complete reversal.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. But now there's an argument that women are working too much now. Right. They're too much in their masculine energy because it's hard to have a one household income these days.

[Jonathan]

Yes. But I do think that what's interesting, I'm doing an episode right now. I mean, a lot of things that I talk about. I want to have a dedicated episode on my platform that expands upon that topic so you can kind of see and hear what the public is saying.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan]

But I'm doing an episode right now called the Traditional Bargain and it's all about. So many of the men are saying we want traditional relationships where the man works and the woman stays home. And I'm saying to myself, why do men want that arrangement when there's more risk on you? So why would you not want a woman who brings some. You're complaining about women not bringing anything to the table.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan]

And then when a woman actually does bring something to the table, now you're going to complain about her being masculine.

[Interviewer]

Yes. Tough balance. I don't, I don't think it's realistic for most men honestly to do that because you'd have to make some, some serious dough to provide for the woman. And if you have kids.

[Jonathan]

Right. And what that does is that basically makes that X's out a large percentage of the male population because, you know, is marriage and family only going to be a luxury now that only a few people can afford? So, you know, you have to frame it in a way where, okay, what, what is a solution that will work best for our overall society? Because otherwise a lot of men are saying the juice ain't worth the squeeze. I'm checking out. And the one thing I was going to go back into saying that red pill does get right is I think it does make a lot of valid points when it comes to maximizing short term dating options. Obviously, you know, if you go to the gym and you get jacked and you look good and you, you know, have good money and things like that. Sure, women will probably sleep with you, but then do you want to invest fully when the laws are the way they are? Like I would ask men, if women were all virgins who cooked and cleaned, would you still. Would you still feel safe getting married under the current laws?

[Interviewer]

Oh, good question. With a prenup or without?

[Jonathan]

Well, prenups get thrown out all the time.

[Interviewer]

Do they?

[Jonathan]

But I mean, just the fact that prenups exist, doesn't that automatically tell you that the marriage laws are already written unfairly?

[Interviewer]

I think, yeah. The fact that you have to do that and a bunch of other legal jargon, you know, to feel safer, it's not even guaranteed. Like you said. Look what happened to Bezos, right? Yeah, Bezos. He lost half his net worth, right?

[Jonathan]

Yeah. So, I mean, it's just, you know, shout out to coach Greg Adams. He uses this term called high value target. And so what ends up happening is you spend all of this time sculpting yourself to become high value, and then what kind of women are you going to attract? Women who are probably gold diggers.

[Interviewer]

Gold diggers. Yeah.

[Jonathan]

And so it's just, why don't we just focus on fixing these laws so that we can not have to navigate the problems and. And avoid landmines? Yeah, because there's so many. I mean, other than just, you know, avoiding divorce, you can get false accusations. I mean, look what happened to Johnny Depp. Look what happened to it. So it's just we have to actually look at what's going on a systemic level and stop blaming individual men for just not being masculine enough.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Has there been any attempts of progress with, when it comes to changing the laws, legislation around men's rights?

[Jonathan]

I know there's a. I think his name is Stephen Baskerville. He has talked a lot about this. It's kind of like, what, what do we change first, the laws or the culture? Because obviously if you change the laws and the culture doesn't support that, then you have a dictatorship. So a lot of this is just kind of spreading awareness. And a big thing that I'm trying to spread awareness about is just saying, okay, the status quo, what we're currently promoting as prescriptions or solutions for men, I don't think are good long term solutions. And it just depends on what our goal is. But it just seems like everyone's giving men the same old man up speeches. It's coming from tradcons, it's coming from Red Pillars, it's coming from feminists. And I mean, I mentioned this in my interview with Pearl, but I say other than changing the family court system, I want prostitution legalized. I think that. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it seems kind of radical, but I think that as long as it's done safely and regulated, I'm not advocating for street walkers, I'm advocating for, you know, red light districts, almost like what they have in Amsterdam or what they have in Germany, things like that. Because it's, you know, intimacy is very important to men's mental well being. I think that, I mean, I was just interviewing all the sex workers at the AVN Awards and these women know that, you know, you need to release biologically as a male, like it's just a very important thing. And you know, if that, if sex was not a need for men, none of those women would have job opportunities in the sex industry. So I think that when it comes to prostitution, I think that if, if men could go get their needs met anytime they wanted, safely, accessibly, affordably, I don't think there'd be any reason to be with a woman other than love. I think it would be a safer society, it'd be a happier society, it would probably generate billions of dollars. So at the very least, I would like to see it debated. But, and I remember, I think I interviewed coach Greg Adams about it once and I asked him and I said, do you think it would change our society? He said, oh, it would turn the, it would turn the game on its head.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Jonathan]

And I'm saying, okay, why are we not even entertaining any discussions about possibly promoting that?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it was so taboo for a while, I think.

[Jonathan]

Well, it's seen as degenerate.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan]

And so I think that, I think there's been a big. I think a lot of red pillars try to almost like bend the knee to tradcons. I think that they're just, they're simping. Yeah. I mean, it's just like we don't want to talk about anything that might be seen as, you know, promoting the degenerate degeneracy in society. But I think that when prostitution used to be legal, we had supposedly a more moral society. So I don't see what the problem is.

[Interviewer]

I was just going to say there's got to be some data on this by now because it's been legal in certain countries and cities for a long time.

[Jonathan]

Yeah, people still get married in Germany, people still get married in Amsterdam. I just think that as long as men had an outlet that it would basically provide some Type of checks on women's ability to exploit men.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Do you buy the narrative that men view sex more physically than women?

[Jonathan]

In a way, yes. But I also think that based on. For women, it's just way more easy to get it. Yeah. So, I mean, you could make the argument that women have just as, you know, high of a sex drive as men. Women can get it every night of the week, anytime they go out. Then maybe it's, it's. They're not as easily manipulated or exploited through that lack of connection.

[Interviewer]

I've seen women with higher sex drives than guys. You know what I mean?

[Jonathan]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

But yeah, I think men do view it more transactionally and physically than women.

[Jonathan]

Well, I think, I think women view it transactionally. Women have monetized it really well. I mean, that's, that's kind of why I think that prawn addiction, I mean, that was my last episode. I think that everyone is blaming men not going out and pursuing relationships on prawn addiction. I think that prawn use and the rise of that is a symptom of women opting out of relationships with men because women believe that we're living in this society where men oppress women. And so women are not interested in building relationships, building connections with men. It's like they would rather tease men than please men.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, prawn's so accessible now, especially with lf. Right. Like back when our parents were growing up, you needed a magazine.

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[Jonathan]

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[Interviewer]

I did want to get your opinion on that because that's inevitably going to be the future, whether you like it or not. I think.

[Jonathan]

What a dystopian future.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I think it's going to be around sex robots. Do you think it's going to be a net positive or no?

[Jonathan]

I mean, once again, it's a cope. Everything is a cope. Prawn use is a cope. AI Girlfriends is a cope. Self improvement is a cope. Passport bros is a cope. Everything is a cope for the fact that we live in a society that hates men. And so I think that, I don't know, I guess when it comes to AI Girlfriends, it's like, why would we not just legalize prostitution instead so you can actually have a connection with a real person. Now, I don't know if you're going to get the necessarily the intimacy that you want, but, you know, a lot of those brothels, they call themselves intimacy specialists or something like that. Like, they don't call themselves prostitutes. And a lot of times when you go to a brothel, a lot of these men just want to sit there and talk to a woman. They aren't necessarily just looking to just, you know, have their fun and then leave. They actually want to sit there and have the girlfriend experience or something like that, or at least have someone to talk to. So, I mean, there's a lot of different ways to approach it. But I think that, you know, when you're starved for human connection, or not even just that. I mean, I'm sure there's lots of men who aren't necessarily, like, you know, living in a basement. There's just a lot of average men who just don't want to feel like they have to overpay and jump through all these hoops to deal with women.

[Interviewer]

It's sketchy. Yeah.

[Jonathan]

And it wasn't always like that in the past because women actually wanted to be with men. In the 1960s and 70s, we had a free love movement. I mean, if it was female nature, how could it be female nature when it's changed? We have to recognize that culture plays a huge role in what's going on. I mean, if all women were the same because of their female nature, Would it make sense to advocate for passport bros, where you're going to a different

[Interviewer]

culture, having a kid there? Yeah, because the laws aren't as strict as here. Right.

[Jonathan]

Well, that's why they say if you become a passport bro, don't bring her back here, because the culture will infect her and turn her westernized.

[Interviewer]

Yep. Western society, man.

[Jonathan]

Well, does that not prove right there that the problem is the culture and not nature?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I think it does.

[Jonathan]

So you could say that there is. You could say that there is. You know, women are hypergamous by nature. Sure, you can say that. But there used to be checks on hypergamy. Like, a lot of the manosphere creators will talk about a deregulated sexual marketplace. Okay, sorry.

[Interviewer]

Places like Miami. Right?

[Jonathan]

Well, just western society, the. The culture, the sexual marketplace is deregulated. Okay, so maybe we should regulate the marketplace. And so we used to have checks on hypergamy. We used to have a regulated marketplace. For example, we used to have at fault divorce. Now it's no fault divorce.

[Interviewer]

So what does that mean for people watching?

[Jonathan]

Okay, so no fault divorce basically means a woman can say, I'm not happy, and just pull the rip cord and opt out of a marriage versus at fault was you actually had to prove fault. So if somebody cheated or broke the marital vows or something like that, you know, abuse things like that, that would. That would kind of keep people in line. It wasn't so easy for them to just kind of opt out of a commitment. And then before that, we had, for thousands of years, we had this system which was called the dowry system. And a good friend of mine, his name is Shah, Shout out to Shah. He basically talks heavily about the dowry system where I'm not sure if you're familiar with a dowry, what that is.

[Interviewer]

I've heard of it, but I don't know exactly.

[Jonathan]

Okay. So dowry refers to money or property brought by a bride to her husband on their marriage.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Jonathan]

And basically we don't have that system anymore. It existed in many cultures all over the world. It still kind of exists in parts of India today, I think it was in parts of Asia and it was all throughout Europe, all throughout United Christendom and things like that. Even I talked about this at, it was funny at Cowboy Christmas. I was talking to all the, you know, conservatives, the cowboys, and I said to them, speaking of Christmas, are you aware that the origin of the Christmas stocking was a Christian legend about St Nicholas who brought dowries to three daughters who couldn't afford afford to pay the dowry to get married because a girl could not get married unless she provided a dowry.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Jonathan]

So it was basically a pre mortem inheritance that the father would give to the daughter so that she could basically show up to a marriage and bring. Sometimes it was linen, sometimes it was goats, sometimes it was trade routes depending on your economic status. But it basically meant that a woman had to kind of marry within her class. So the whole Cinderella story, you think about like this, this gold digger story of, you know, an impoverished woman marrying a prince, that wasn't even a real thing, that wasn't even possible because she wouldn't have a dowry to be able to bring to the prince to be able to afford marriage.

[Interviewer]

Very interesting.

[Jonathan]

So we're basically being sold this, this version of traditionalism that's not even traditional. When everybody talks about traditional marriage in the manosphere or even these conservative tradcon spaces, they talk about 1950s marriage, the nuclear family. And I'm asking, why are we more bought into the 1950s nuclear family and traditional marriage, which happened for a few decades, then arranged marriages with bride price and dowry, which happened for a few thousand years. So we're being sold a version of marriage that is not in fact what marriage was traditionally and that's not even being talked about. So I'm trying, I've made at least two episodes on the dowry. Shah talks about it on his channel all the time. And we're trying to basically get this talking point into the space so it will be. Because right now they're pushing this narrative and it's like, okay, well were saying that this is the way it is. And I'm trying to say, well, this is not the way it is because it wasn't always this way. We've had many, many different traditions throughout history, so we can't just say that it can possibly be any other way.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. The 50s always gets brought up, I think because that's when the nuclear family was at its strongest. According to them, the divorce rates were. I haven't fact checked this, but their divorce rates were lower back then, I guess.

[Jonathan]

Right.

[Interviewer]

I'm not sure, but that is their take.

[Jonathan]

Yeah. And I'm sure that, you know, the, the nuclear family offered a lot of wonderful things and I am a strong proponent of the family. But is it a wise financial risk for a man under the current conditions? No.

[Interviewer]

No. And I'm married saying that. Yeah. You know what I mean? But I have to be realistic.

[Jonathan]

Right.

[Interviewer]

I've just seen it wreck a lot of lives.

[Jonathan]

Yeah. So I don't know how to make it a safe place for men to come back. But right now men are in, they're in self preservation mode.

[Interviewer]

A lot of guys are scared to get married.

[Jonathan]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

I know guys that have been with the same girl for like almost 10 years that are scared.

[Jonathan]

Right. And I've asked women before, I said, okay, would you get married if divorce was illegal? Would you get married if it was just a religious ceremony with no state contract?

[Interviewer]

And they say no, of course not. 90% of the time. Right.

[Jonathan]

No, they want the security. But what if men say, hey, I want to feel secure in knowing that you're not just going to pull the rip cord and destroy my life. And a lot of people will say things like, well, you just have to marry the right woman. You need to vet her properly. So to that I respond and say, do you think any man would get married thinking he's marrying the wrong woman? So it's not about what a woman will do, it's what she can do.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Jonathan]

What do you think will change?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, 100%. Men and women too.

[Jonathan]

I don't want, I don't want to see a woman stuck in an abusive marriage either. I mean, we have to find outcomes that are beneficial to men and women. It's, I'm not just, you know, anti woman just because I'm pro men, I'm pro society. I want something that's going to work for everybody.

[Interviewer]

So that being said, what do you think the optimal system would be when it comes to marriage and divorce? What would that look like in your eyes?

[Jonathan]

I just, I'm not literally saying we need to bring the dowry back or I mean, maybe we need to get rid of no fault divorce. I'm not sure I Think these are all topics that can be heavily debated, but I think that women need to have some type of skin in the game, because when women have skin in the game, they tend to value that relationship a lot more.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Jonathan]

Especially when a lot of the manosphere creators say things like, the woman needs to love you more than you love her, because then you want to have the options and the leverage. It's almost like they're preaching dread game. It's like she has to fear losing you. So if the woman is more invested in you, then obviously she's going to take you more seriously. Well, okay, possibly. But either way, whether she's more invested or you're both invested, either way, it has to be a situation where you both value the relationship, you both are working and investing. That's just.

[Interviewer]

Agreed. Yeah. Because right now the risk is not 5050.

[Jonathan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Interviewer]

I would say it's probably like 80, 20 on a. You know what I mean?

[Jonathan]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Especially when you factor in child support and all the legal fees. It's not even close.

[Jonathan]

Yeah. But people will say, well, just assume the risk because you're a man. And that's what men do. That's just how it is. And it's like, well, what if we said that's just how it is during the civil rights movement? Would anything have changed? So I think that a lot of these issues are not being framed properly. We need to frame them in a way where there's equal risk. I mean, just the fact that women say they want equality and yet men are still the ones expected to do all the approaching and make all the effort. And so a man is supposed to proudly give away his assets in the hopes that a woman will reciprocate.

[Interviewer]

Good luck with that.

[Jonathan]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So you did bring this up earlier. I wanted to ask you about circumcision. You seem to have an issue with that topic. What specifically?

[Jonathan]

I haven't done an episode on it, but I know that that is a big issue with men's advocate, men's rights activists, but it doesn't seem to be a big issue with other manosphere creators and things like that. It's just simply about bodily autonomy. We talk about women's bodily autonomy. It's her body, her choice. I mean, before men even, you know, form a conscious thought, they already have a doctor snipping them in their most private area.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan]

So, I mean, that could be a traumatic, traumatizing thing for an infant. And I just think it's something that should at least be addressed.

[Interviewer]

I agree. There's Actually some concerning health studies on it for both humans and dogs too. So it should definitely be talked about more. I've actually never seen anyone talk about in the red pill space.

[Jonathan]

Right. So I mean, like I said, it's like, are you really advocating for men or are you just trying to get men to buy a course so they can attract women?

[Interviewer]

Kind of random too, but you allegedly lose a lot of feeling when you get circumcised.

[Jonathan]

That makes the sex a lot of the. Yeah, a lot of the sensitivity is in the foreskin, I've heard.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. So that's a bummer. We'll never know. We'll never know. Well, John, it's been great, man. I can't wait to set up some debates for you this year. Since you're in Vegas, where can people find you, support you?

[Jonathan]

So I'm on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok. But mainly my YouTube channel is where you can see the full episodes. Everything else is just where I have clips, obviously. Please share my content, share my message. I mean, like I said, I'm not selling anything. I'm just trying to basically get the word out there because I really want people to wake up to the issues and maybe see them framed in a different way and basically just, just, you know, I mean, I take donations, things like that, but every little bit helps. I mean, obviously, you know, the more connections, the more, the larger I grow, the more collaborations I can do, things like that. So for sure, like I said, you know, I mean, this is, this is. My channel is more than a channel. I consider my channel a movement.

[Interviewer]

Love it. We'll link your stuff below. Thanks for coming on, man.

[Jonathan]

Yeah, pleasure.

[Interviewer]

Check them out guys. Check out the links. See you next time. Peace. Thanks for watching to the end guys. Please comment below your thoughts on the episode if you agree. If you disagree, I'd love to hear it. I read every single comment. Means a lot to me. Thank you so much.

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