← Digital Social Hour
Digital Social Hour
Master YouTube SEO: Insider Secrets Exposed | Rebecca Zung DSH #1031
00:44:33
Master the secrets of YouTube SEO and discover game-changing insights with expert Rebecca Zung! 🎯 In this eye-opening episode, we uncover powerful strategies for dealing with narcissists, building successful digital businesses, and mastering the art of
Loading summary
Transcript338 lines
- [00:01]
A
But think about this. These are the people that are actually getting diagnosed. I mean, most people who have NPD or even narcissistic traits aren't going to get themselves clinically diagnosed because by definition, there's a lack of self awareness. They think it's everybody else's fault. You know, they're the victim all the time.
- [00:27]
B
All right, guys, Rebecca Zung here today, fellow podcaster and narcissism expert. Thanks for coming on.
- [00:32]
A
Thank you. It's such a pleasure to meet you.
- [00:34]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. You've been all over the place lately.
- [00:37]
A
Yeah, well, that's this work. Right. But it's all about making an impact and doing as much as you can to help.
- [00:44]
B
Was the narcissism stuff how you started?
- [00:46]
A
Well, I'm a lawyer by trade, you know, so I was practicing law up until a few years ago when I really started making it big on YouTube and through my courses and now my certification and so that's really my full time career now. And we also just rolled out a program for corporations and I was actually just approved as a certified government contractor for the US government.
- [01:15]
B
Nice.
- [01:16]
A
So now I can actually deliver programming to the armed forces. Military to like Department of Defense, Department of Justice, you know, all of that as well.
- [01:26]
B
That's awesome.
- [01:27]
A
Yeah, we'll dive into that conflict resolution. So I'm really excited about that.
- [01:31]
B
How common is narcissism in lawyers?
- [01:33]
A
Oh, you know, it's interesting. When I did my, when I wrote my book last year, I did find that there are certain professions that have a higher instance of, you know, incidence of narcissism. And of course, lawyers was one of the high ones. You know, surgeons, doctors, they were pretty high up there. Also celebrities, definitely celebrities. Professional athletes, you know, so. Sure.
- [02:00]
B
And entrepreneurs. Right.
- [02:02]
A
I mean, that was not specifically singled out, but I'm sure, you know, certain CEOs. Definitely CEOs.
- [02:08]
B
CEOs. Yeah. Because I have all my friends take the dark triad test.
- [02:12]
A
Oh, yeah? Yeah.
- [02:13]
B
And a lot of my entrepreneur friends score decently high in narcissism.
- [02:16]
A
Oh, yeah. Well, it is a sliding scale. I mean, there's narcissistic personality disorder, which is at the end of the spectrum. I always say it's like there's the end of the spectrum, which is npd, and then the other end of the spectrum, which is Dalai Lama or Jesus or whoever your person is, and the rest of us fall somewhere in between. And it can actually even fluctuate with if you feel sick, you're tired, whatever, you're probably a little bit more selfish than you would be and not seeing other people. But narcissistic personality disorder is just a person who feels the most pain, the most shame, the most emptiness inside, the most insecurities. And because of that they can't have empathy for anybody else.
- [03:02]
B
Wow.
- [03:02]
A
And so it's almost like having a toothache. You know, if you have a toothache, all you can think about is that pain. You can't think about anybody else in that moment. It's like that. And they have this complete emptiness feeling inside of them. They don't have any sense of their own self worth. And so they have to get all of that from external sources. And I call it diamond level supply and co level supply because there really are like two levels of it. The first level would be how they look to the world. Image, reputation, and you know, that is where the celebrity piece comes from. Or you know, having a lot of money or having the, you know, if you're this old guy with this 25 year old girlfriend or whatever, like it's all like kind of that. But then there's like the dark underbelly of narcissistic supply, which is what I call coal level supply, which is also very important to them. But in when you go to negotiate, they're going to protect diamond level supply over this kind. But coal level supply is, you know, treating people poorly, pushing other people down to make themselves feel better. So it might be the put downs, it might be the, the gaslighting, it might be the smearing other people, that sort of thing. And so both kinds of supply are very, very important to a narcissist. But when you go to negotiate with a narcissist, how you create leverage is threatening that source of supply. That's more important for them to keep than the supply that they get from manipulating you.
- [04:34]
B
That's so smart.
- [04:35]
A
Yeah.
- [04:35]
B
Wow. Yeah. Because you could use that as leverage in a way and actually come up on top.
- [04:41]
A
That's the only way that you can because otherwise they're going to continue to want to get that coal level supply from you, which is, you know, the game playing, the manipulating the moving the goalposts. Most people think, oh, narcissists just want to win. Well, they do want to win, but they also want, it's almost like, you know, they like enjoy, they enjoy inflicting the pain, you know, it's a game for them.
- [05:10]
B
Wow. Are you able to identify if someone is a narcissist now?
- [05:14]
A
I can much more quickly. I mean, you know, of course, like anything at the school of Hard knocks. I learned the hard way, you know. Right. I mean, having to deal with them in different places in my family and my. As a business partner, you know, different people in my life. And then, of course, I, as a lawyer, I saw a lot of narcissists come through as either clients or opposing clients or even opposing counsel or judges. But it doesn't necessarily, you know, at the time that most of the time that I was practicing, that word wasn't like a buzzword. But in the last few years, it's become a buzzword. Where everybody's a narcissist.
- [05:55]
B
Yeah. You know, everyone's labeling their friends or their significant other or their ex.
- [05:59]
A
Correct.
- [06:00]
B
Or their boss.
- [06:01]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [06:01]
B
It's just thrown around.
- [06:02]
A
Thrown around.
- [06:03]
B
I wonder what percentage people actually are.
- [06:06]
A
Well, they say that 15% of the population. I did this, the research last year, so about 15% of the population has a personality disorder that lacks empathy. So they say under the DSM 5 that, you know, I think it's like maybe 7% of people have NPD. And then there's another percentage of people that have bipolar or, you know, other personality disorders that lack empathy. But then there's another sect, which there's an intersection of, with high conflict personality, which, you know, they may not necessarily be all the way to the end of the spectrum to be diagnosed, but they're people that just enjoy the game of conflict and they just kind of make trouble wherever they go. And almost like a sadistic thing in some ways, I think, or something, I'm not really sure, but I think that there is definitely some overlap there. So if you take that and you say, okay, well, maybe It's. Is it 20%? Is it 25? You know, who knows? But think about this. These are the people that are actually getting diagnosed. I mean, most people who have NPD or even narcissistic traits aren't going to get themselves clinically diagnosed because by definition, there's a lack of self awareness. They think it's everybody else's fault. You know, they're the victim all the time.
- [07:33]
B
Yeah. That's so interesting. There's definitely people that enjoy conflict. When I was in college, every time this kid got drunk, he would look to fight. Oh, every time.
- [07:41]
A
Yeah.
- [07:41]
B
And I never even thought that could be narcissism.
- [07:44]
A
Yeah. I mean, I knew somebody who would like, get people at a dinner party to the point of, you know, almost in tears or something because he was just like creating conflict. And then as soon as the person would be like, upset, then he would go now we're having a conversation. Now we're into it. Like he actually was so not aware. Like he actually thought it was sort of fun.
- [08:06]
B
Wow.
- [08:06]
A
Yeah.
- [08:07]
B
So they're not even aware of what they're doing?
- [08:08]
A
No, not, not always. Because, you know, it's actually, I mean, this is something else I learned that you might find fascinating when I was doing my research. And that is where it all comes from. And it comes from trauma in childhood. And when we as humans are in survival mode, as you probably know, then we go into this fight or flight and adrenaline and cortisol kicks in and it starts to like bathe our brain. And then we're in high alert, high alert. And when that happens on a regular or continuous basis as children because of neglect or abuse, or witnessing abuse, or just, you know, whatever feeling they had where they felt like they had to be in survival mode like that as a kid, then that cortisol actually can cause arrested development in the limbic system part of the brain. And so what happens is you're kind of almost stuck at 5 years old or 6 years or whatever age it is. And so while the prefrontal cortex part of the brain continues to develop, which is your thinking, reasoning, judgment, that limbic brain is not completely developed. And so what happens is when they get to be adults and they're triggered by whatever, but it's usually like a loss of control or they think they're going to be exposed or they're going to look bad, or a loss of their kingdom in some way, then they will immediately be triggered. That limbic system is immediately triggered. And now it takes over the prefrontal cortex part of the brain literally shuts it down. And so now you're just dealing with that. And usually the things that they're triggered by aren't necessarily reasonable or, or rational, but it's gonna be, you know, it could be an eye roll, a tone of voice, a you know, just some perceived slight, whatever that is. And so now you're dealing with this full on emotion person who's whatever age they are, and they don't think from a place of being rational at that point or reasonable. And many times it's not even necessarily to their best interests. I mean, they will self sabotage a lot of times and they'll self sabotage to get that other person. I mean, when I was practicing law, I was so perplexed that why is this guy saying I'm going to burn my business to the ground so I don't have to pay her alimony? That makes no sense whatsoever, you know, but they would do that.
- [11:02]
B
Wow.
- [11:03]
A
Yeah.
- [11:03]
B
Yeah, I used to self sabotage too, so I didn't even think that could be narcissism. But yeah, when I would get in trouble growing up, I would. I wouldn't eat.
- [11:11]
A
Oh.
- [11:12]
B
So I was super skinny.
- [11:14]
A
Oh, my God.
- [11:14]
B
Yeah.
- [11:15]
A
And you're already skinny.
- [11:16]
B
I know. I was already skinny. I was like 140, 150 pounds.
- [11:19]
A
Oh, my God.
- [11:20]
B
So I was self sabotage. And I would do that in friendships, too.
- [11:24]
A
Oh. I mean, I think, you know, we all have some element of that. I've called my inner sabotager, my saboteur. I figured I'd give her a French name so she's at least, like, elegant or something.
- [11:38]
B
Alter ego.
- [11:38]
A
My alter ego. No, you don't get to talk. I'm in control here.
- [11:44]
B
Yeah, because we're not doing what's in our best interest. We're just being petty, being stubborn about it.
- [11:50]
A
Exactly.
- [11:50]
B
A lot of people have that.
- [11:51]
A
A lot of people have that. But it's the narcissist who doesn't realize what they're doing because they just so much want to inflict pain on this other person. And. And, you know, it's all because. And they don't see the impact. And that's one of the things that I really fully believe, and that is that narcissists will always overplay their hand because they don't see the long game. They're only, like, in it right now.
- [12:27]
B
Right.
- [12:27]
A
And so I've seen it many, many times in negotiations where they end up, you know, self sabotaging. They always end up kind of collapsing, losing control, whatever is going to happen.
- [12:38]
B
Yeah, I could see that growing up. My Asian mother was very argumentative.
- [12:42]
A
Oh.
- [12:42]
B
And we used to always butt heads. And when I moved out of the house, it rubbed off on me. It took me a while to get out of that mindset.
- [12:50]
A
Yeah.
- [12:50]
B
I used to always try to argue with people for no reason.
- [12:52]
A
Oh, that's so funny.
- [12:53]
B
And even when I knew I was wrong, sometimes I'd catch myself in the argument knowing I was wrong. I wouldn't admit it, but you would admit it.
- [13:00]
A
And you do now.
- [13:01]
B
Now I've gotten a lot better.
- [13:03]
A
Yeah. And you're engaged, right?
- [13:05]
B
Yeah.
- [13:05]
A
Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I've been married for 24 years, and I can just tell you that, you know, you have to. It's like, it's a give and take. You have to learn how to really go. Okay. I'm really sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you. You know, I can see your side, I can see your perspective, you know, it helps a lot.
- [13:24]
B
Oh, it helps a lot. Yeah. But just that awareness, the first step was huge for me because I wasn't aware that combative.
- [13:31]
A
But you know, just the fact that you're sitting here admitting that is huge took some time.
- [13:35]
B
I think psychedelics helped.
- [13:36]
A
Yeah.
- [13:37]
B
Kind of reset the brain a little bit.
- [13:39]
A
Definitely helps.
- [13:39]
B
Yeah. Have you dabbled with that?
- [13:41]
A
I did, I did one journey with that. It was. I had what they call a shadow journey.
- [13:47]
B
Shadow work. Right.
- [13:48]
A
Yeah. Because I had to like really confront my, the, the control aspect of my personality, which, you know, of course I'm half Chinese and half German, so I always joke that there's no fun deans whatsoever.
- [14:02]
B
Yeah, definitely not with Chinese. Germans are pretty serious too.
- [14:05]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's all like organized and you know, very efficient. And so I have this like control aspect of my personality which of course ends up holding you away from love, holding you away from being in your full capacity, you know, and so that was the lesson for me.
- [14:25]
B
Did you grow up in a controlling household?
- [14:28]
A
Somewhat. I mean, you know, my father was Chinese and he had come here when he was 14. He went to Bronx High School of Science, Columbia undergrad, medical school, you know, very like academic. Academic. And also, you know, he became a doctor, you know, very smart guy. And you know, he raised us the way he knew how to be raised. Right. Which is pretty strict. And you know, if I get a 99, what happened to the other point, you know? Yeah, yeah, I saw I have this Asian grading scale, which maybe you might. So I have a lot of cousins and we came up with our Asian grading scale, which is A is acceptable, B is below average, C is can't have dinner, D is don't come home, and F is find another family.
- [15:15]
B
Yeah, that's so relatable. Yeah, my mom was pretty tough too.
- [15:18]
A
Yeah. But my dad was a great dad. Great dad, I have to say.
- [15:22]
B
Yeah, no, everything. Cuz they used academics to escape poverty, so I get that perspective.
- [15:26]
A
Yeah.
- [15:27]
B
But I would purposely fail classes to spite my mom.
- [15:30]
A
That's where it got to self sabotage.
- [15:31]
B
Self sabotage? Yeah, I did it all the time.
- [15:33]
A
Well, I mean, I kind of did it too. I mean, I got married at 19 the first time. I had three kids by the time I was 22, I had to go back to law school at night and everything as a single mom. Because. Because, you know, at first marriage it was this guy and we were just too young. I mean, he's a great guy. But we were too young.
- [15:49]
B
So you did that to spite your parents?
- [15:51]
A
Yeah, it was sort of like my way. My version of, you know, going, you know, being a teenager or whatever. Right. But how crazy is that? Self sabotage? Total. But I love my kids. And I'm not. I don't, you know, regret that, of course. But, you know, then I met my husband in law school. I mean, I was still young. I was still in my 20s, you know? Yeah.
- [16:14]
B
Yeah. Strict parents is like a double edged sword, right?
- [16:17]
A
Totally. Totally. I mean, it's good in a lot of ways. I mean, look how successful you are. I mean, you know, and. And I have changed a lot as well. But I mean, you know, like, what's the balance there?
- [16:32]
B
Right? Here's what I've realized. Doing 1200 episodes now. Almost everyone has some sort of childhood trauma, but it's. It's kind of like on you, how you want to.
- [16:40]
A
It's how you respond.
- [16:41]
B
Right?
- [16:41]
A
It's always how you respond.
- [16:43]
B
Yeah, 100%. Some people eats them and they don't achieve the success they were destined to. And then some people use it as leverage, get to that next level.
- [16:51]
A
Yeah. So Viktor Frankl, who wrote Man's Search for Meaning, are you familiar with that book?
- [16:57]
B
No.
- [16:57]
A
Okay, so he was a Nazi. He was in the encampments, and his whole family had been murdered.
- [17:06]
B
Wow.
- [17:07]
A
And he wrote this book called Man's Search for Meeting. You definitely need to read it. It's like one of those books, like, it's like in Everybody's like, top 20 to read. You know what I mean? You gotta read. But he said between every stimulus and response, there's a space. And it's how you respond to that stimulus that makes the difference in your life. Because every single person is gonna be who they are. And they all come from whatever perspective they come from. And to them, it's. Right. Right. I mean, everybody thinks that what they're doing is correct in that moment. I mean, that's from their perspective. It's from their, you know, because of all the different things that have happened to them in their life. Right. And so. But if you can kind of see, okay, I can see what's happening with this person. And I always say, put this invisible shield down around you, invisible bubble. Become like Teflon. Be like, you know, Superman with the bullets off your chest or Wonder Woman with the bullets off your. Off your wrist. And be like, I can see that. You know, you're angry, you're upset, whatever. We can have this conversation later. Like, I don't need to participate in whatever this is going on over here. You know, observe, don't absorb, respond, don't react. And so that you could just have that space, have that gap. I always say, take an SOS moment, stop, observe, then speak.
- [18:37]
B
Love it.
- [18:38]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [18:38]
B
Because a lot of people want to react instantly. Right. If someone's angry or upset.
- [18:42]
A
Right. You want to take it personally. And so the other thing I always say is I always wear jade because I'm half Chinese and. But never jade. So never justify, argue, defend, or explain.
- [18:57]
B
So never do that.
- [18:58]
A
Never do that. Because if you're talking to somebody who's high conflict, argumentative, narcissistic, or whatever it is that's going on with them, and you don't even need to diagnose them. Doesn't matter. But if this person is like, in that state, they're not going to listen to you.
- [19:16]
B
Yeah.
- [19:17]
A
They're not going to go, oh, you know what? You know what, Sean? I really see your side. I get it. I was totally wrong. You're the best. I really acknowledge you. They're not doing that. What are you doing over there, right. With trying to justify yourself or defend or explain. What are you doing with that? Or arguing with them? They're not. You're wasting your time and your breath, and time is like the most valuable commodity we have on this planet.
- [19:46]
B
Right. Yeah. You're not going to change their opinion on the spot.
- [19:49]
A
Never going to change their opinion on the spot.
- [19:51]
B
Yeah. Certain players, I play basketball, and if someone's coming at me, you know, I try not to fight back, honestly.
- [19:58]
A
Yeah.
- [19:58]
B
Who knows what that will lead to?
- [20:00]
A
Right. I mean, it's like, if there's, like this push thing, and if you're pushing back, then, you know, you continue to get that resistance. But if one person just says, you know what, I'm not. Not participating in your anger or your triggers or whatever they are, your triggers are your responsibility.
- [20:16]
B
Yeah. Wow. So 15% of people have narcissism.
- [20:20]
A
Yeah. Well, some personality disorder that lacks empathy.
- [20:23]
B
Pretty high.
- [20:24]
A
Yeah.
- [20:24]
B
And that's just. What is that based off of?
- [20:26]
A
That's the DSM 5.
- [20:27]
B
DSM 5.
- [20:28]
A
Yeah. And that's what psychologists use to diagnose.
- [20:32]
B
Wow.
- [20:32]
A
Yeah.
- [20:32]
B
That's pretty high. I wonder if that's a. Is that just in America or is that a worldwide thing?
- [20:36]
A
I believe that's worldwide. I mean, you know, I think the DSM 5 is used. I don't know if it's only used in the United States or everywhere, but I believe it's worldwide.
- [20:46]
B
Do you see, since you were younger, do you see the rates going up in narcissism?
- [20:51]
A
And so. Yeah, so actually there's a study that Harvard Business Review just cited, and that is that there's been an increase in NPD by 30% since the 1970s. Between the 1970s and the mid 2000s, it was an increase in cases of NPD by 30%.
- [21:14]
B
I wonder if social media played a role in that.
- [21:15]
A
I definitely think it's so.
- [21:17]
B
I think so, too.
- [21:18]
A
Totally.
- [21:19]
B
Because people are. That's like your second life these days, right? Like your social media profiles, right?
- [21:24]
A
You have to post everything and you have to, you know, get a certain number of likes. You have to.
- [21:31]
B
I've fallen for that too. Like, even now, like, when I don't get the views I want, I definitely feel upset. It's hard to fight that. Right.
- [21:38]
A
Well, I mean, I know for me, like, Having grown my YouTube channel as quickly as I have, it's like, if I put out a video now and, you know, two hours later only has like 2700 views or whatever, I'm like. Or I'm like, what's going on? This is a really great topic.
- [21:55]
B
First world problems.
- [21:57]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [21:58]
B
Yeah. No, they. They've made those so, like, engaging. I'm on my phone eight hours a day. It's really bad.
- [22:04]
A
Oh, my goodness.
- [22:04]
B
I use it for work, so I kind of just that. But still, like, it's so addicting.
- [22:09]
A
It is. Well, it's that dopamine hit as you get a dopamine hit from it. And that's, you know, the most addictive hormone is. Dopamine is the hormone of addiction. And so that's why, you know, people want to play Angry Birds or they want to. Like. It's the slot machine thing. You know, where people sit here in Vegas, right, with the slot machine. Oh, my. I might get my, you know, three things in a row or whatever it is. So. But it's, you know, narcissists are actually have the same effect on humans, and it's because of the hot, cold, hot, cold, hot, cold. So with a narcissist, you know, they are either in love with you and you're the best thing that ever happened to them or your soulmates or you're amazing or whatever. Even at work, if they're your boss or your colleague or whatever, one day you're their best friend or their best person or whoever, and then the next day it's, who the heck are you? Why are you so needy? Or. I never said that. I never said I Was gonna pay that money back, or I never said I was gonna do whatever the promise is. And trying to make you think that you're crazy. And so what that does to your brain is dopamine. Cortisol. Dopamine. Cortisol. Dopamine. Because you're stressed. Stressed. Dopamine. Oh, my God. Okay. This person loves. Oh, no, they hate me, you know, and so that causes actually an addiction to that person, and that's what actually causes the trauma bond.
- [23:45]
B
Wow.
- [23:45]
A
It's actually physiological. So there was a psychologist out of Stanford named Robert Sapolsky who did a study on monkeys, and they had to, like, play this game and hit this lever, you know? And if they. If they got it right every single time and they got a reward every single time, then the dopamine levels in their brains remained flat. Like, it didn't. There was nothing. But if they didn't know when they were gonna get the reward and they would, like, push nothing. Oh, sometimes I do get it. Just the anticipation that they might get the reward caused the dopamine levels in their brain to rise to the level of cocaine.
- [24:30]
B
Whoa.
- [24:31]
A
Yeah.
- [24:31]
B
Just the anticipation.
- [24:32]
A
Just the anticipation.
- [24:33]
B
Holy crap.
- [24:34]
A
Yeah.
- [24:35]
B
So that's just how powerful the mind is, then.
- [24:36]
A
It's how powerful it is. And that's why narcissists have such an effect on people.
- [24:41]
B
They do. I used to, when I was in high school and college, I would see these girls just go after these narcissists, and I always wondered why. Yeah, they got that effect on them, huh?
- [24:49]
A
You have that effect.
- [24:50]
B
Yeah. They used to love those toxic relationships, right? Going after the cool kids and stuff.
- [24:56]
A
Yeah.
- [24:56]
B
Damn. Yeah. And all those guys were narcissists. It's like they draw you in almost.
- [25:00]
A
They draw you in with the biggest, and they use mirror neurons to draw you in, and so they kind of mirror what you are. Like, your body language, your tone of voice, the way you speak, the things you like, everything they like. You like. Oh, my God. You like eggnog ice cream. That's my favorite. It's like something super random. Right? But that's what they do.
- [25:26]
B
No, they'll say whatever to get laid. Honestly.
- [25:28]
A
Yeah. Yeah. You know, and then they want to get you to that next level as soon as possible to lock you down so that they can, you know, because all of that is just a deposit. They want the withdrawal, and it better be more so than what they're depositing in.
- [25:45]
B
Damn. So were you dating a narcissist in the past?
- [25:48]
A
Oh, yeah. I definitely had, you know, the Experiences with them. And, you know, and certainly in my family and, you know, friendship. I mean, I'm trying to keep. Keep my culture and my business clean. But, you know, every once in a while, narcissist still slips in there.
- [26:06]
B
Yeah. You know, it's one of those things because good salespeople, you know, they tend to kind of have those traits, unfortunately. Yeah, it's like a catch 22.
- [26:14]
A
Yeah.
- [26:14]
B
But if they're really good at closing, it's common to have some narcissism in there, I feel.
- [26:18]
A
Sure.
- [26:19]
B
So it's like, damn, I want to keep this company culture intact. But it's tough because one bad egg can.
- [26:24]
A
Can totally, totally poison the whole thing.
- [26:27]
B
Yeah, for sure. But they're everywhere. Yeah. Family, friends, business, it's almost unavoidable. So knowing your methods on how to deal with them is actually really valuable for people.
- [26:35]
A
Yeah, well, it's helped me so much and it's now helped, you know, through my programs. You know, I have digital courses that are online, so I have a lower ticket one that's like $500. We've sold that to like 10,000 people in the world or more probably. That's crazy. And then I have a certification which I just launched last year, which we've Certified more than 200 coaches so far on that. And then, you know what's great about that is I now have all these high conflict negotiation certified coaches who I can take with me on my team to do the corporate consulting.
- [27:14]
B
Yeah, you're like the female Chris Voss.
- [27:17]
A
Well, he actually wrote the foreword to my book.
- [27:19]
B
Oh, he did. Wow. Yeah, that's cool. Small. He's one of my favorite guests that have been on the show.
- [27:23]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [27:24]
B
He's impressive.
- [27:25]
A
So we did podcast swaps for each other and wrote the forward for my book. He's a big supporter and believer in.
- [27:31]
B
What I do, so he's awesome. I mean, this stuff is. Can save business owners a lot of money. I could see the value in it.
- [27:37]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, because it's the risk mitigation, but it's also the sales side of things. So, you know, I teach people. People how some sales techniques. I was just talking to one of your team members over there about. About that.
- [27:49]
B
Yeah, the psychology is super important. If you got the right product or service, it just comes down to this stuff. Sales process. Right.
- [27:56]
A
Totally. I mean, you know, to be. You want to be the most powerful, persuasive, influential person in the room, but you want to be from a heart centered place. And the more you can be heart centered and. And really deeply care about the person that you are working with or your community or the people at large. And you just really focus on results for them and making sure that they have the best experience possible or whatever it is. I mean, that's really one of the most important aspects of selling, to be honest with you, because, like, I truly believe that what I'm doing as a service and helping and that I'm just a conduit from the universe to provide. And if you just do the right thing by the client, your customer, your community, the abundance will come for you.
- [28:51]
B
Absolutely. Yeah, I'm very aware of that too. I've only had two refunds in the past two years.
- [28:55]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [28:56]
B
And I can't get to them right away.
- [28:57]
A
Yeah, I had. It's so funny that you just brought that up because I just had my first one last week or something and it was because I had a salesperson who had to leave. And so this person had like a little bit of a gap after she purchased between that and when the client service manager ended up contacting her. And so she felt like the service here isn't very good or whatever. I was like, oh my gosh, that's not how it is, of course. But.
- [29:28]
B
But that just shows the quality of your product. You sold tens of thousands and only one refund.
- [29:32]
A
Yeah.
- [29:32]
B
And it wasn't even your fault.
- [29:34]
A
No. I mean, and I really tried to get her back and you know, we even offered her extra, extra time, you know, extra services or whatever, but she was just like super spooked. And I was like, just give him a refund. It's fine. You know, maybe we can get her back down the road.
- [29:48]
B
It's better to do that because of the chargeback potential.
- [29:50]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [29:50]
B
And then you lose the payment.
- [29:51]
A
You don't have to do that. Exactly.
- [29:53]
B
Yeah. I've come a long way. I used to get a lot of chargebacks when I was in E. Commerce. Dropshipping.
- [29:57]
A
Oh, that's a totally different.
- [29:58]
B
And I was neglecting customer service.
- [29:59]
A
Yeah.
- [30:00]
B
So I've learned not to do that.
- [30:01]
A
Yeah. Stripe will drop you like a hammer.
- [30:04]
B
Yeah. And then you're on a match list.
- [30:06]
A
Yeah.
- [30:06]
B
Process anywhere.
- [30:07]
A
Yeah. I mean, I use a different processor now, which we can talk about offline and all of that, but I was telling him, I'm like, become a total expert on funnels and how to build a digital business. And so I'm going to be dropping a course for women entrepreneurs who want access to that.
- [30:29]
B
Nice.
- [30:30]
A
Yeah.
- [30:30]
B
Yeah. Funnels Used to be everywhere. Do they still work?
- [30:35]
A
Oh, of course they do. Because, you know, if you bring somebody in either at a free level or a $7 level or $47 level and they've already opened their wallet, then psychologically now they feel like tied to you. They feel like they trust you.
- [30:53]
B
Right. Especially if the product or service is good.
- [30:55]
A
Exactly.
- [30:56]
B
That's the key where people neglect. I feel like, though, a lot of people will get you in, but maybe it's not the best product or service. So.
- [31:03]
A
Yeah, I mean, most people aren't gonna go and spend 6,000, 10,000, 20,000 with somebody that they really don't know at all.
- [31:11]
B
Right. It's a tough sell.
- [31:12]
A
Yeah. I mean, the one thing I can say for me is a lot of my audience has been organic. I mean, all of my audience has been organic, but my purchasers have been organic. And so they've watched like thousands of hours of my YouTube videos already. And so they feel like they know me. They feel like they trust me already. And so that helps. But, you know, if you're going to try to run cold traffic, which we just literally started doing recently, and the person gets on and they're like, oh, I don't know who she is. I've never heard of her. You know, like, you gotta warm them up a little bit.
- [31:48]
B
It's a way harder sell. Yeah. That's why I think podcasting and content helps a lot with creators.
- [31:53]
A
Tremendously. Yeah, tremendously. And I selected YouTube because YouTube is, you know, an SEO engine. Really. I mean, most people think of YouTube as like, oh, it's the other social media. There's Facebook, there's Instagram, there's LinkedIn, there's YouTube. But YouTube is actually a search engine. Yeah, it's actually the second largest search engine owned by the first largest search engine in the world.
- [32:20]
B
Wow.
- [32:21]
A
And so if you really master YouTube, you get free SEO. And that's all of my Instagram, my Facebook, all of that's completely organic because of my YouTube and my podcast. I was only just sort of repurposing my interviews over there. Wasn't really paying much attention to it. And then somebody said, oh, look on. I think it's Lipson or something like that. I can't remember which one it was. But there's one of those podcast websites where you can look up to see where you stand. Oh, I'm in the top 1% of podcasts. It's crazy. How did that happen? Because of the SEO.
- [33:01]
B
Nice. Yeah, yeah, I. I read Mr. Beast SEO Guide. It got leaked. Did you see this now? A month ago, his guide on when he hires employees gives them a guide. Oh, so that got leaked.
- [33:13]
A
Oh, my God.
- [33:14]
B
And it's like how to rank your YouTube videos higher and get more views.
- [33:17]
A
Oh, I would definitely need to check that out.
- [33:19]
B
I'll send you it. But, yeah, I've implemented some of the things. It's been really helpful.
- [33:23]
A
Oh.
- [33:23]
B
So, yeah, watch time is really important.
- [33:25]
A
Watch time is king.
- [33:27]
B
So I've been lowering or shortening my episodes.
- [33:30]
A
Watch time is king. So two times a week, we actually release something called a mashup, which is where we take a lot of episodes and we push them together, like the top quotes of it or whatever, and we create a content on around that. So it's like, it might be, you know, how to win in court against a narcissist or something, but there's like, I've already done, like, six episodes on something similar. So what they do is they take, like, the most highly viewed sections of those pie. You know, how you can look and see, and then they push them together and make it like an hour and a half. Wow.
- [34:05]
B
That's brilliant. I've seen Evan Carmichael, I think.
- [34:09]
A
Well, that's. I was coached by Evan for, like, two years.
- [34:12]
B
I used to watch all his videos. Yes, those compilations of the top 10 things this guy said.
- [34:17]
A
Yeah. So Evan is the one who helps me with creating mashups that still works.
- [34:22]
B
Wow. Yeah.
- [34:22]
A
Yeah.
- [34:22]
B
He's been doing that forever.
- [34:24]
A
Oh, my God. I mean, it's probably half my revenue past year because of the mashups.
- [34:30]
B
So I need to start doing that.
- [34:31]
A
Because I got totally. So just take, like, you know, if you have several people who've talked about how to build a business online or people about negotiating or whatever it is, then you take those episodes and you pull.
- [34:46]
B
Push.
- [34:46]
A
Pull them all together and make one viral title. You know, stop doing this and negotiating, or this is the only way to win or whatever it is. You know what I mean?
- [34:56]
B
Yeah.
- [34:57]
A
And then you will just create a bunch of episodes together. Like, push a bunch together. We call it a mashup. And then make it at least 90 minutes. I mean, you can see Lewis Howes does it, and he's got, like three hour ones on there. Yeah. But people will sit there and watch. They'll listen. And that increases your watch time, and that helps your algorithm, and it also helps your revenue.
- [35:24]
B
That's good to know. I'll definitely do that. Yeah. Those motivational videos you could watch for hours straight 100.
- [35:29]
A
And if you take the most viral sections of all of your interviews and put them together into one subject, it'll do so well for you.
- [35:38]
B
That's so smart. How much do the titles matter? You think of the video?
- [35:42]
A
Everything really. Yeah, I'm really good at that, as you can tell.
- [35:45]
B
I need to learn from you about that.
- [35:46]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:47]
B
I use AI right now, but I don't feel like it hits, you know.
- [35:51]
A
You know, it's okay. Like, sometimes, you know, I'll use some of that just to kind of give me some, like, some ideas.
- [35:59]
B
But you manually do it for the most part.
- [36:01]
A
Well, I always massage it because, you know, I've been doing this for years now, so I have a good sense of what's going to work and what's not.
- [36:10]
B
That makes sense. And how quick does the video rank once you upload it on the search engine?
- [36:15]
A
Always, like, as soon as I upload.
- [36:16]
B
It'Ll show up as at the top.
- [36:18]
A
It's like one or two always.
- [36:20]
B
Whoa, that's really impressive because when I. I'll look up my guest and then podcast and I'm never in the top, like five.
- [36:27]
A
Oh, I'll show you how to rank. You have to use the right keywords. How to. Like, so I use tubebuddy. I use keywords everywhere. And then there's a new one that we just started using. I can't remember the name of it.
- [36:44]
B
But you use those keywords in the tags or in the description?
- [36:48]
A
Both.
- [36:48]
B
Oh, both. Okay, so that's probably where I'm. Yeah, I'm not doing either. So. Yeah, my team uploads it and I don't instruct them.
- [36:56]
A
I'll show you how to do it. I'll show you how to do it.
- [36:58]
B
Yeah, that'll probably help a lot.
- [37:00]
A
Yeah.
- [37:00]
B
Cause I feel like we're also. We upload a lot, so that's affecting the views, but I just gotta catch up.
- [37:06]
A
No, no, YouTube wants you to upload a lot. Yeah, they do, but they're just. They're trying to figure out who you are. So, you know, you wanna make sure, like, okay, this is my niche, you know, so it's digital social hours. So what is your niche? Is it, you know, how to create digital courses, digital programs, how to negotiate? You know, like, is it, like, what's your sort of niche? Is it lifestyle? Is it for entrepreneurs? You know? And so once, once YouTube kind of figures out who you are, then it'll. It'll start showing your content. So you want to show up both in search and suggested. So search is like your original One, but suggested is like somebody's watched something similar and then now you show up on the side.
- [37:48]
B
Got it.
- [37:49]
A
Yeah. So you want to show up in both.
- [37:51]
B
That makes sense. Yeah. I really love YouTube. I think it's probably the most important social media platform right now.
- [37:57]
A
To me, it's a. I've built a multi million dollar business off of it.
- [38:01]
B
Right. Same. I think Instagram's great for DMs.
- [38:05]
A
Yeah. So we just started a DM strategy with that because, you know, I have two setters now on my team and so they've really been using that and, you know, and I have like a chat feature, you know, so if people comment certain words, then it'll go to the DM and they'll get automatic messages and things like that. Because I mean, as you can imagine, just like you.
- [38:24]
B
You get hundreds. Yeah, yeah. Especially when you've got a viral video.
- [38:28]
A
Yeah.
- [38:29]
B
Thousands of comments.
- [38:30]
A
Yeah. Or I do a really good interview, you know, like when I did Mel Robbins or at My Lad or whatever, like, it was like, oh my God, my team could not keep up.
- [38:38]
B
Yeah. You know, how'd you prepare for those? Those are some big ones.
- [38:42]
A
You know, I feel like I've been preparing for this my whole life. I've been a trial lawyer for 20 years. You know, I had to think of my feet a lot in court. So I just think that, you know, the funny thing about Ed Mylett is when I did him, I didn't really realize who he was.
- [39:01]
B
Oh, you didn't know him?
- [39:02]
A
No. I mean, but friends of ours are really good friends of his. And so they introduced me and he had me on and, you know, I saw that he had a lot of followers, but, you know, you never know. Like, are they real? They bought, you know, everyone's got bots. Yeah. And so part of the game. Right.
- [39:19]
B
And so that's half crazy.
- [39:22]
A
It's crazy. Yeah. So I didn't know. And so it was really only after I did the episode and you know, everything was like coming in that I realized, oh, okay, this is pretty crazy.
- [39:35]
B
He's got a great show. I used to watch every episode growing up.
- [39:38]
A
Yeah. And, you know, now I've met him several times and everything's a great guy.
- [39:41]
B
Yeah. And Mel too. I think she's number one in her category, if I believe.
- [39:45]
A
Yeah, I know that for sure. And I, you know, my, my episode was so. It came out at the end of November last year and it was the top one already for the year.
- [39:56]
B
Whoa.
- [39:56]
A
And so she made it her in her Like New Year's, things to do, things to watch or whatever as her top eight episodes. I was in there again.
- [40:07]
B
I love that. Yeah, I need to make that list for my audience. Top eight episodes. Yeah, maybe top 10 since I have so many.
- [40:13]
A
Yeah. And so she like recommended it for her, like the New Year's, like, these are the things you need to do for your life. And so I got another hit from that. And then she like started like chopping it up into like 10 minute segments and using it that way as well.
- [40:29]
B
Smart.
- [40:29]
A
So I actually just started doing that, like the 10 minute segment or 12 minute segments from a long interview. Because. Because that definitely helps.
- [40:37]
B
I see Patrick B. David doing that too. And Tom Bilyeu. Yeah, yeah, 10. 10 to like 15 minute segments exactly. It's people's attention span to watch a full podcast. Front to end is pretty rare these days.
- [40:48]
A
Right. But then if they like it, they'll go back and watch the whole thing. So you put in the comments, you know, I mean, in the description. Go back and watch the full episode here or whatever.
- [40:57]
B
Right, yeah. Because if you want to send someone a piece of the podcast, it's hard to send them the full thing and then tell them where to go to. But if you send him a clip, it's more digestible. Yeah, yeah, I love that. I'm really excited about the future of podcasting.
- [41:10]
A
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's really interesting. I mean, you're doing. You're killing it over here. I feel like I need to spend more time on really being purposeful about my podcast.
- [41:23]
B
I mean, you're getting 80,000 downloads an episode. You're already killing it.
- [41:26]
A
Oh, I'm doing well. But you know, I feel like I shouldn't be. Be more purposeful about. Okay, let me bring on really high level gas. I mean, I've had a lot of high level gas.
- [41:34]
B
Yeah. But with those numbers, you could get almost whoever. So you just need the right team person on your team to do some outreach with the right script.
- [41:42]
A
Yeah, I definitely do.
- [41:43]
B
Yeah. Because 80K, that's, that's more than top point 1%. That's got to be point 01%.
- [41:48]
A
Well, it may be now. Yeah. I mean, it went up a lot. You know, I got got up to that number because, I mean, we took a hit. Like Apple did say something.
- [41:59]
B
Yeah, everyone took a big hit.
- [42:00]
A
Yeah, I took a massive hit at one point and then I'm. But I'm back up now. Like it went down to like 40 or something.
- [42:06]
B
I was like, which is still good.
- [42:08]
A
Yeah. But I was like, what the heck is going on over here?
- [42:11]
B
I'm getting like 40k a day right now.
- [42:13]
A
Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. That's really great.
- [42:15]
B
Yeah. 500K a month, which.
- [42:16]
A
That's huge.
- [42:17]
B
It's good because you could get a lot of sponsors. A lot of guests.
- [42:20]
A
Yes. Oh, I have good sponsors. So when I went to this particular agency to help me get sponsors, you know, I have quite a few good sponsors now.
- [42:30]
B
Is it Libsyn ads or.
- [42:32]
A
No, it's Hala. Yep, yep.
- [42:34]
B
I've. Oh, Hala. Yeah, I know her. Yeah, yeah, she's great. I'm going to get her on the show actually soon.
- [42:41]
A
Yeah. So I'm with her and she has a lot of big names on her roster as well. But, you know, because of that, I. I do have pretty good sponsors now.
- [42:52]
B
Well, what's next for you, Rebecca?
- [42:53]
A
I just continuing to grow the programming with the. For women entrepreneurs and also for corporations and for all people who are feeling like they want to negotiate in a higher level. It's really about your own feeling of self worth. That's what it is for me. And it's empowering people to take back their power and take back their agency and not be at the effect of whatever's going on because there's always going to be difficult people in the world. They're not going away.
- [43:30]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. We'll link below your course and everything and your social media profile.
- [43:34]
A
Oh, thank you.
- [43:35]
B
Absolutely.
- [43:36]
A
Yeah.
- [43:36]
B
Check it out, guys. If you feel like you're dealing with a narcissist in your life or anybody.
- [43:40]
A
You know, you want to negotiate more powerfully. You know, you want to just be in your own power, your own feeling of self worth. And it's really about becoming the best version of you. The. The. The you that was meant to be, not the you with all your trauma. You know, don't let your trauma do the picking. Don't let your trauma do the talking.
- [44:04]
B
I love that.
- [44:05]
A
Something I always say all the time. You know, you and you alone define your value and people will think what you tell them to think. People will be enrolled in how you tell them to be enrolled. You create, you design.
- [44:22]
B
That's powerful. Yeah. Check out the link below. Guys, thanks for coming on.
- [44:25]
A
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
- [44:26]
B
Thanks for watching, guys. See you next time.