MegaChurch Pastor Rejects The Label of "Christian"? | DSH #2008

Summary

Digital Social Hour – Episode Summary

Episode: MegaChurch Pastor Rejects The Label of "Christian"? | DSH #2008

Date: June 9, 2026
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Pastor Judah Smith

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Episode Overview

In this engaging, candid episode, Sean Kelly sits down with Pastor Judah Smith to explore faith, mental health, forgiveness, and personal transformation. The conversation delves into Judah’s discomfort with the “Christian” label, the lessons he’s learned both as a pastor and as a person, and his distinct, humanizing perspective on love and spirituality. Along the way, the two share personal stories about overcoming hardship, navigating public scrutiny, and redefining the role of faith leaders in modern society.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reluctance to Embrace the “Christian” Label

• Judah's Hesitance: Early in the episode, Judah expresses his reservation about being called a "Christian," citing the negative history associated with the label.
  • Memorable Quote:

    "I'm really hesitant with the term Christian. Like, I really am. I just think a lot of really painful things have happened in human history with the name Christian." – Judah Smith (00:00, 37:26)

• Preferred Identity: Instead, Judah prefers to define himself by his love for and pursuit of Jesus, focusing on embodying the qualities of Christ rather than religious classification.

2. The Toll of Anxiety, Lawsuits, and Public Pressure

• Sean's Vulnerability: Sean opens up about his struggle with anxiety, panic attacks, and even agoraphobia sparked by high-stress experiences, like a major lawsuit in his early 20s.
  • Quote:

    "I had terrible anxiety and depression. I was having panic attacks, literally collapsing on the ground… they don't teach you how to deal with those, especially at a young age like that." – Sean Kelly (00:08, 06:41)

• Public Scrutiny for Leaders: Both discuss the pressure of being public figures and the risk of becoming targets for criticism or legal action.
  • Quote:

    "Being a preacher too is an odd thing these days... anonymity is luxury, baby." – Judah Smith (10:19)

3. Personal Growth & Overcoming the Past

• Both men reflect on their younger selves—Sean as a hard-partying teen often counted out by his peers, and Judah as someone raised in a positive, perhaps sheltered environment.
  • Quote:

    "I was like a partier pretending to be crazy… kids on the side… thought I'd either be dead or in jail." – Sean Kelly (18:48)

  • Judah’s Perspective:

    "Judging a book by its cover is just a wild thing to do. People are capable of so much more. And look at you now." (19:54)

4. Boundaries, Honesty, and Family Dynamics

• The complexities of setting healthy boundaries—especially with family—are discussed, along with the importance of honesty in relationships.
  • Quote:

    "When someone is not honest with me, I usually got them out of my life pretty quick." – Sean Kelly (21:04)

  • Judah’s Take:

    "I'm learning how to have boundaries. You say cut people out… in my line of work, it's like, you couldn't do that, but I'm learning." (21:08)

5. The Power and Practice of Forgiveness

• Judah stresses the necessity of daily, active forgiveness—for others and oneself—as key to emotional health and spiritual wholeness.
  • Quote:

    "Forgiveness is underrated… there are a few people in my life I still have to forgive every single day." (22:21)

  • On Self-Forgiveness:

    "Look in front of a mirror… say your name… I forgive you and I love you and I believe you. It matters… even if you don't believe the stuff I believe." (27:11)

6. The Story of God: New Church Direction

• Judah shares his upcoming project: retelling the entire Bible in 33 chapters, each from the first-person perspective of a key figure.
  • Quote:

    "I'm going to do 33 chapters all in first person narrative… Adam and Eve are going to tell you first person…" (16:08)

7. Redefining Love and Grace

• Love as a Person: Judah describes his theology as seeing love (and grace, mercy) not just as concepts but as the embodied example of Jesus.
  • Quote:

    "I define love as a person... I believe Jesus is love. What that means for me is I can walk and talk with love." (29:49)

• Radical Forgiveness: He reiterates the significance of Jesus’s words on the cross:
  • Quote:

    "Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing." (34:32)

8. Free Will, Fate, and The Role of God

• Judah articulates the tension between divine sovereignty and human free will, maintaining both operate in life’s outcomes.
  • Quote:

    "I am philosophically or theologically ... I believe in the protecting of free will and sovereignty at the same time..." (38:30)

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• "Anonymity is luxury, baby... going under the radar is underrated." – Judah Smith (10:19)
• "Forgiveness doesn't mean you got to be somebody's friend, but forgiveness means you got to let them go and set them free…" – Judah Smith (23:01)
• "If you can't forgive yourself, you're not going to forgive anybody else." – Judah Smith (26:48)
• "I define love as a person... I believe Jesus is love. What that means for me is I can walk and talk with love." – Judah Smith (29:49)
• On distancing from the Christian label:

  "Even when people are like, 'are you a Christian?', I'm like, I love Jesus. I follow Jesus. And there's a little bit more dynamo there." (37:44)

• On what he wants on his tombstone:

  "That I made people the prize. There's nothing more valuable and more beautiful than people." (45:41)

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Key Segments with Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Details | |-------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–01:00 | Judah's hesitance with the term "Christian" | | 06:00–09:30 | Sean's mental health struggles and early career lawsuit | | 10:47–11:51 | Judah on fame, anonymity, and leadership pressures | | 13:01–15:27 | Childhood positivity, parental influence, and public vs private schooling | | 16:08–17:10 | Judah's new Bible storytelling project | | 20:12–22:05 | Reflections on being "counted out", transformation, personal standards | | 22:21–23:51 | The importance and process of forgiveness | | 26:06–28:19 | Loving oneself as a prerequisite for loving others and self-forgiveness | | 29:15–37:44 | Judah's personal definition of love and its connection to Jesus | | 38:30–39:30 | Free will vs. divine sovereignty | | 42:28–45:41 | Closing: What Judah wants on his tombstone, reflections on legacy |

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Concluding Reflections

• Judah Smith’s approach to faith emphasizes love, forgiveness, and humility over religious labels or dogma.
• The discussion is rich with real-life struggles—anxiety, public criticism, legal challenges—offering listeners practical wisdom and hope.
• The episode closes with Smith’s desire to be remembered for prioritizing people over all else, a sentiment that encapsulates the entire conversation.

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Recommended For:
Listeners interested in faith from a fresh, authentic angle; those struggling with forgiveness or personal setbacks; anyone curious about the challenges and responsibilities of public leadership; and people questioning religious identity in the modern world.

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Next Steps:
Skip to [16:08] for Judah’s new Bible storytelling vision, [22:21] for a masterclass on forgiveness, or [29:15] to hear a profound reimagining of love as a living presence rather than an abstract ideal.

Transcript

[A]

And I'm really hesitant with the term Christian. Like, I really am. I just think a lot of really painful things have happened in human history with the name Christian.

[B]

Like, I had terrible anxiety and depression. I was having panic attacks, literally collapsing the ground. But I could still leave the house when I needed to. But then once that lawsuit hit, they don't teach you how to deal with those, especially at a young age like that.

[A]

I can just get in my head very quickly about, like, wait, is who's going to sue me next?

[B]

Okay, guys, last but not least today, Pastor Judah Smith. What's up, man? What's new with you?

[A]

Oh, man, I'm so happy to be here and finding out we got a lot of mutual friends, so that's fun.

[B]

A lot, man. A lot. Yeah, you're in a great mood, too. Are you always in this good of a mood?

[A]

I mean, I hope so. My son's here, so he could probably tell the truth, but I try to stay happy and. But, I mean, I'm. I can be email. Let's be honest. I'm a big feeler, so I feel rooms and feel emotions. And I gotta say, your room feels good, bro.

[B]

Thank you, man.

[A]

You got a good team.

[B]

I try to surround myself with great people, clearly.

[A]

Yeah, I really do mean that.

[B]

So you are pretty, like, sensitive, though, like, you pick up on.

[A]

Yeah, I wish I didn't. Like, yesterday I got into a funk, and so I just went and walked around my. My garden and just tried to, like. I made a few calls, prayed with a few friends. Yeah, I just feel stuff. There's a lot to feel these days, too, lately. Dude, have you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What? Do you know why?

[B]

No, I'm trying to figure it out, but, like, I track my health on this aura ring.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it tells you how long you're stressed every day. And this week, I averaged eight hours a day of stress. So I've been in some mental funk, and I'm trying to.

[A]

Is it, like, sadness? Is it madness? Do you know?

[B]

So I, like, push through it, so I don't even know. I don't think it's. I don't think it's, though. I. I think I would, like. I just. I'm working all day, so I'm, like, putting emotions in the back of my head. It's probably not good for me, but.

[A]

Well, you do a lot, bro. I found out you did 23 podcasts in one day.

[B]

Yeah, 20. That was a tough day at Charlie Kirk's event.

[A]

Yo. But that's like a. I think that's like Guinness Book of World Records.

[B]

I was trying to look it up.

[A]

It.

[B]

I don't even know if they have the record, but if it did, it probably would be a record.

[A]

Yo, could we track them down and let them know we're here with the world champ?

[B]

Yeah. These days they charge a lot to get in there, though.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. Exactly. To get an award these days, you got to pay for it. We're not paying.

[B]

Yeah. What happened? The good old days when they had those shiny books and you could get in there for free. You remember those days?

[A]

I'm just. Yeah, yeah. I was born in those days. Yeah.

[B]

Had the long nails and the eyeball popper guy.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

[B]

Yeah. Now there's weird records.

[A]

The weirdest. And if you pay enough, you could get one.

[B]

Yeah. I saw one where it was like most kisses in a minute.

[A]

Nuh.

[B]

Yeah. So he just kissed his girl, like, non stop for a minute.

[A]

Nobody asked me about that word. I've been married 26 years. I could do that one for sure.

[B]

You got to compete with them.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, do you mind if I bring my wife on at some point and we try to break that record?

[B]

Go ahead, let's do it.

[A]

It's like, so weird, you know? Yeah, sure, bro.

[B]

I just got married.

[A]

Wait, what?

[B]

Yeah, six months ago.

[A]

Wait, so you're six months into marriage? Is in. I feel dumb asking, but how did you meet?

[B]

We met so in college in Jersey, where we grew up. Met through a mutual friend.

[A]

Dude, I love Jersey.

[B]

You love Jersey?

[A]

I really do. New York, Jersey, the whole thing.

[B]

East coast.

[A]

I didn't know.

[B]

Special energy out there.

[A]

It is, it's. Do you notice how much more aggressive it is than California? Very, very.

[B]

It's very aggressive. But in Jersey at least I'll speak. Very family oriented.

[A]

Oh, that's cool.

[B]

Which I liked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So where did you meet her?

[B]

We met through a mutual friend. We watched Game of Thrones Season 7 on our first day, the whole season in one night.

[A]

Do you wait and you just knew? Well, I'm a preacher. I'm not supposed to tell people I watched Game of Thrones, but I totally did. Come on. Yeah, it was awesome. And.

[B]

And wait, People are against watching Game of Thrones?

[A]

Well, because there's a lot of nudity in there. And so, like. But my wife and I were thinking maybe like every. Every nude scene, we could do something fun together. I don't know. That was.

[B]

There's a lot of nudity.

[A]

There's a little. I Probably shouldn't have said that on your podcast, but I just did. So here we are.

[B]

You're good. There is a lot of, you know, R rated content on the show.

[A]

But, bro, the art. I mean, what they did with that show was. Okay, so you watch. Wait a minute. Can I ask you a question?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like a whole season in one night. What are you guys talking about between episodes? Are you not.

[B]

We're not talking much because it was a drinking game.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was the game?

[B]

It was a while ago. Let me try to remember. It was. I remember specific words that were said. We had to drink, specific actions. But you know how drinking games go. I mean, it gets out of hand.

[A]

And you knew. Did you know that night? Be honest.

[B]

Oh, good question. I've never been asked that. Did I know that night while I was really drunk, that I knew she was the one? She would want me to say yes, right? I bet she would, but I don't think I did it.

[A]

This matters. Gin, vodka, tequila. Like, what were you drinking? Wine.

[B]

Tequila.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. How does that matter?

[A]

Well, I just feel like tequila, you're less likely to get. I feel like if you're gonna go gin, you're probably gonna get sick. Vodka, you might get aggressive, but tequila, you get happy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's my favorite.

[B]

Has always been my happy.

[A]

Drunk.

[B]

Yeah, I don't drink anymore.

[A]

Well played. I don't either. Seven years.

[B]

Yeah. I have, like, a drink. So I'm not completely sober, but I haven't been drunk in years.

[A]

I respect it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well done.

[B]

Other than that, karaoke with Tyus. But it was my birthday.

[A]

It's probably after your 23rd podcast.

[B]

Yeah, we're going to skip that one. But that was. That was a random event. I don't get drunk like that anymore.

[A]

Okay. Okay. Deal. Deal.

[B]

Yeah. But I knew quickly. She's the only girl I've ever been with, so.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I knew pretty quickly, bro.

[A]

How old are you now?

[B]

29. So I met her when I was 21.

[A]

Dude, congrats. Six months in. I'm 26 years married. Wow. Which means I understand that marriage is the ultimate dance. And even though the music changes, you just keep dancing, baby.

[B]

Well done.

[A]

Just keep dancing.

[B]

Well done, man.

[A]

I'm in love with her.

[B]

It was tough the first few years of our relationship.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Finding ourselves, you know, college. Tough years these days. Tough time. Mental health.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Been through a lot together. You have to write on them. Yeah, for sure. I had agoraphobia. Actually, you know what that is? No fear of leaving your House.

[A]

Wait, when did this happen?

[B]

This was right when. So I dropped out of college. I was basically failing out. Okay. But I. I'll say I dropped out.

[A]

It's all laughing at your failure.

[B]

It's all good.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

I tell people I dropped out, but I was technically failed failing.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then it happened around then. I was 22, I think.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so do you just wake up one day and go, oh, my God, I can't leave?

[B]

So it went from anxiety and depression into that, but a moment triggered it, which was a lawsuit. So, like, I had terrible anxiety and depression. I was having panic attacks, literally collapsing the ground, but I could still leave the house when I needed to. But then once that lawsuit hit. They don't teach you how to deal with those.

[A]

No.

[B]

Especially at a young age like that, so.

[A]

That's way too young.

[B]

Yeah. I thought the world was ending, and if it went to court, basically, I would have been bankrupt. I would have lost. So everything was on the line, and what happened? Settled. Everything I built was on the line. So if I didn't settle out of that, I would have been bankrupt. Would have been. Yeah. Game over.

[A]

Isn't it a weird feeling when. And I've experienced lawsuits where suddenly you're like, wait, this human is so diabolically opposed to me, they actually want to either take my money or do me harm? That's emotionally overwhelming for me because I love to get along with people, and I'm a pleaser. And when I'm opposed, it's even like. Like, a guy, like, the other night rolled down his window and wanted to talk, and we think he was angry, and I was like, I just told Wes, I keep the bros. Keep going, Keep driving. I don't want to talk to him. Like, sometimes, like, meeting someone who really doesn't like you is. Yeah, it's. It's debilitating for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I really want to win with people.

[B]

Like, I. Wait. I don't want to be in lawsuits. I don't even want to sue people. I don't want to be the one pursuing anyone, even if they did me wrong.

[A]

Who likes that stuff? I mean, I have lawyer friends, but they don't even seem to like it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I feel that it's crazy.

[B]

Yeah. Lawyers.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

Most lawyers actually don't want to go to trial.

[A]

Yeah, Good point. Yes. Settling is kind of the. Yeah.

[B]

They're trying to settle because trial is stressful for everyone involved.

[A]

Yeah, Absolutely. Cheers.

[B]

The uncertainty, by the way. But, yeah. This guy over a text. Yeah. No one text. Message. My company at the time was an E commerce business and it sent text messages. If you had something in your cart but you didn't check out.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It's called Abandoned Cart Next. And I didn't have the checkbox to get their permission. You know how you have that checkbox when you type in your phone number on a website? I didn't have that cuz I didn't know. I was like a young kid. I didn't know that was a law. And he said I distressed him, caused him health issues from that text. And then basically, long story short, every text message you send without permission, that checkbox is $500 fine. And my business sent out tens of thousands of those because we were getting a lot of website visitors.

[A]

So was he doubling down? Like, you're going to have to pay for all the ones you've sent or. It was.

[B]

He wanted it to turn into a class action. Yeah, he was coming after me personally first, but with the idea of turning it into that rough time, man.

[A]

Yeah. This guy's falling. I mean, bro, you're 22. That's insane.

[B]

Yeah. So full on like ego death, I'd call it.

[A]

Yeah. Do you ever get. Sometimes my mind wanders and I am like, anyone can sue anyone. What's keeping people from like, especially someone like yourself, a public figure. You're like, anyways, I can just get in my head very quickly about like, wait, is who's going to sue me next?

[B]

Law fair is a real thing. There's another situation, like right before I started the show four years ago, because if. If the wrong person sues you, they'll drag it out and they don't care how much money they lose. I've seen this. Yeah. With my own eyes. And that almost happened to me. I was like throwing up based off a phone call.

[A]

You call it law Fear, Lawfare.

[B]

Lawfare. Yeah. Basically you're using the court system against someone, but you piss off the wrong guy, they'll drag your ass to court for years, make you spend six, seven figures in legal. It's not fun.

[A]

Oh my God, that is insane. I hate that. To me, it's literally one of the scare. I find myself like, my mind will wander and I'll be like. Being a preacher too is an odd thing these days. And it's just like, man, I'm just grateful, I suppose, that I haven't had more lawsuits. It's just a challenging time for even somebody like you with a platform you have and the incredible candor that you use in honesty. Like, I Respect it a lot, bro. It takes. It takes more courage than I think anyone probably realizes.

[B]

Thank you. What's that dynamic, like being a preacher but also being pretty known, you know, like having a following?

[A]

Well, I mean, I take that. That following thing with a grain of salt. I mean, I think there's always somebody who has such significantly more influence and sway and following that I can kind of take refuge in that. But, I mean, I guess the ultimate goal is when you're telling a story. And in my case, I believe it's the greatest story ever told. But I do believe it's a story. I believe it's this incredible romantic story of God's love for humanity. You want people to know about it. I mean, that's the objective. So if people know who I am, so be it. I definitely didn't think that people would know who I was because I was going to be a preacher. I figured the church I pastored would know who I was. But, yeah, it's been a wild ride and a fun ride and some good, some bad, and written some books and that sort of thing. But anonymity is luxury, baby. So I'm. I'm not mad at, like, you know, going under the radar is underrated.

[B]

Yeah. I have billionaire friends that have no social media, so I see that lifestyle through. And, you know, it's that question, like, would you rather have a lot of followers or a lot of money?

[A]

And what's your answer? Oh, I know. I appreciate the pause. I really appreciate the pause, because with

[B]

a lot of money, you'd have to f. So right now, it's tough at this stage of my life because I want to have a family. I want to provide for them. I'm leaning towards the money, but I'm not sure.

[A]

Well, and I can't. In my line of work, what can I make a bigger difference with money or people, you know, following? I think people are the most beautiful people, priceless thing on the planet. But, yeah, I sway, too. Like, what matters more, being able to move people's hearts or to be able to have resource to, you know, enact change? I don't know.

[B]

I guess it would come down to semantics of the amount of followers and the amount of money.

[A]

That's so true.

[B]

You know what I mean? Because a lot is relative.

[A]

Yeah, good point.

[B]

But, yeah, having followers, you know, public spotlight puts you as a target, whether it's lawsuits or haters or. You know what I mean?

[A]

It just does. And I grew up. This is the weirdest thing. My dad was a very positive Guy. So if you think I'm positive. My dad was incredibly much more positive. Ended up dying of cancer about 16 years ago. But nearly every day of my life, Mike, he told me, people like you and want to hear what you have to say. So I'll be honest. It. I'm in my twenties when it dawns on me, not everybody likes me, and not everybody wants to hear what I have to say. And I will say that was a little jarring. So I don't know if I totally do that with my kids, because it was, like, probably, like, newly married and then some dudes didn't like some stuff I was speaking on, and I, like, didn't even know. I was like, what now? Wait, what's going on? It was like a tilt. Like, my whole machine was on tilt. So. But anyways, so your 20s was the

[B]

first time you had some competition, bro.

[A]

Do you know the first time my dad said a negative word about another pastor? I was married. I was 22 years old, and my dad said something about a pastor, and I said, dad, you can't talk like that. He goes, son, come here. Sit down. I gotta. I gotta talk to you about their real life. Because my dad was just that positive. It's just the way that he lived. And, I mean, I'm grateful for a lot of it, for sure.

[B]

So you were almost in, like, a bubble.

[A]

Oh, no question. Like a real Truman show kind of thing situation. Yeah. And, yeah, so the bubble gets burst, and that's painful. But I do think my dad was right in terms of, like, man, you can see the beauty or you can see the agony. Let's try to emphasize the beauty and embrace people that are going through agonizing situations. And so, yeah, I'm a big, like, let's find the beauty in everything we can. You know, life is short.

[B]

I mean, it worked for you, man. I see the other side, too, where, like, parents put their kids in a bubble, and then they don't know how the real world works, and they get wrecked when they try to get a job or whatever. But, yeah, I guess it's situational. Right.

[A]

Well. And I definitely. I don't feel like I kind of didn't. Like, my kids are. Public school, the whole thing. My. My daughter is a junior in. In high school in Venice, and there's not much of a bubble around her life. So, yeah, I definitely. Yeah, I kind of. I kind of angled a little more, like, let's get them out in the real world. And I want them to be familiar with. With all kinds of people.

[B]

Yeah, public school. I'm battling that now as I want to have. Getting ready to have kids. So you sent all your kids to public school?

[A]

Yeah, public school it was. Yeah, I love the public school system. I think public school teachers are the friggin heroes of this country, bro. I think they're just some of the most amazing people. I'll go on record. So shout out to public school teachers everywhere, wherever you are, we love you.

[B]

I mean they're teaching for, you know, a lot of them, 40k, 50k, 60k a year salaries.

[A]

I can't believe it's tough. Yeah, it really is tough. In another lifetime I would like start an initiative but I don't think I'm the right guy for that. But we got to help those public school teachers. They're incredible.

[B]

Yeah. So private was never a question or.

[A]

Yeah, we did, we did one year of. We had an element. We had a preschool at our church. Couldn't even remember. But I'm not. We don't have that anymore. So my kids went to that little preschool. It was fun. But then I got them out in the, in the real world, baby. It was fun. Yeah, I wanted them to know what it was all about.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

How's the church? Been busy.

[A]

It's great. We are going to a whole new chapter. I'm gonna really focus on this whole story of God idea which is basically a flyover of the whole ancient mystical magical book we call the Bible. And I'm going to do 33 chapters all in first person narrative. And so we're to go like Adam and Eve are going to tell you first person. Abraham's going to tell you first person. Noah's going to tell you first person. And to be honest, man, I'm discovering things I've never seen in the most ancient mystical, magical book in human history. And I'm loving it. I just want to get. I want to give a book to my friends that have no context for the Bible whatsoever. And I feel like a lot of wild and crazy deplorable things have been done in the name of the Bible. And I think the whole book is about a person. And that person is Jesus. And I just love him. I just love him. And I'm not so caught up in who calls themselves a Christian. That was a title given to people who look like Jesus. But I think if we all wanted to live, love and look like Jesus, the world would be a better place for it.

[B]

I love reading the Bible again for the first time in 20 years. Last week.

[A]

Where are you at right now?

[B]

Matthew 20 or something.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

So I started with the Old Testament. I fell asleep. It was boring, man. I don't know. Maybe I did it wrong, bro.

[A]

I can help you with it. I can help you with it.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

But we're going to tell it in story form. I think you're gonna. It's gonna be called the Story of God. And we're gonna have a book and I'll. I'll get you a copy, but in like, in like 33 days you can get like a flyover of the whole book.

[B]

Okay. Really?

[A]

That's what it's about. Okay.

[B]

I need that.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

That's. I'll go like a fast track course.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

The guy was so monotone. I'm an audiobook guy. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm not like actually reading it, but he was so monotone. So then I switched the New Testament. I got this app called Bible is. I don't know if you heard of that.

[A]

No, I had. Yeah.

[B]

It reads it with like background music and makes me feel like I'm in the Times.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So I like it.

[A]

Have you always been a curious guy?

[B]

Very much so.

[A]

Very.

[B]

And I used to get punished for it, so I suppressed it, unfortunately, for a while.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What do you mean you suppressed it?

[B]

Well, just like being curious. If you're not in the right school setting or the right parental household, it's like not looked as like a positive, I guess.

[A]

Like you're questioning too much kind of a thing. Yeah.

[B]

And they just shut you down or say you're crazy or.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Make you feel stupid.

[A]

Isn't that wild?

[B]

But.

[A]

But curious people change the world.

[B]

Yeah. I got voted most likely to I think end up in jail.

[A]

That's not true, Mike. Yeah.

[B]

I think in 10 years a lot of people thought I'd either be dead or in jail.

[A]

But wait a minute. You don't strike me as that person at all. Am I missing something? Like, were you like, were you crazy in high school?

[B]

I was like a partier pretending to be crazy. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, I was trying like as deflection.

[B]

Yeah. I was trying to fit in with the cool kids. So I was drinking, I was partying. That was like a phase I went through in high school. Junior year, so I got voted Life at the party, but kids on the side, because obviously that's not in the yearbook, like most likely to die. But they were all saying like in 10 years he'll be dead or in jail.

[A]

Cuz you were going that hard, dude.

[B]

I would drink straight vodka, no chaser, and I'm allergic to alcohol, so they called me tomato face, so there's pictures of me as red as a tomato.

[A]

You're being dead serious.

[B]

Yeah. And I would black out or near blackout, no chaser. Drink a whole handle of vodka in one night. I almost had to get my stomach pumped a few times. I got arrested prom weekend. I was. I was pretty wild back in the day.

[A]

What high school did you go to, by the way?

[B]

Bridgewater.

[A]

Jersey.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, it's in Jersey. 820 kids in my class, they. They could all attest to this.

[A]

Are we talking, like, it, like, at, like, rallies in the gym? Like, you're.

[B]

I would be drunk at the football games. Parents would, like, tell their kids not to hang out with me. I was like, a fool. Like, you know what I mean?

[A]

Which just goes to show, though, which is maybe why I do what I do. Like, I just think. I think, you know, performance and actions and morals, they're all important. Of course, we're not fools, but, like, man, judging a book by its cover is just a wild thing to do. People are capable of so much more. And look at you now.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, seeing what I went through to get to where I'm at now is if I judged that person 10 years ago, who would have thought, right?

[A]

That's crazy. Yeah.

[B]

But people have similar stories to that, where they're, like, counted out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hear it all the time.

[A]

So can I ask you a question?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So in light of you being that guy and who you are now, what's most important to you when it comes to people?

[B]

Like, being friends with them or.

[A]

Yeah, just like. Like, my answer to what's most important for me with people would be, like.

[B]

Love. Yeah.

[A]

Like, I just think love is very important. And I would obviously kind of maybe break that down. But what's, like. Is it, like, not. Not, like, categorizing people? I mean, because people categorize you and say you're gonna be.

[B]

I think judging is just so natural for people. But I think for me, it'd be honesty. Oh, that's really important for me. And when someone is not honest with me, I usually got them out of my life pretty quick.

[A]

Well said.

[B]

Yeah, that's like, a deal breaker for me. Honestly.

[A]

I'm 47, and I feel like I'm learning in the last five years how to have boundaries. You say cut people out. I'll use just a little rounded more. A little nicer word, which is boundaries. But, yeah, cutting people out in My line of work is kind of like. It's like, you couldn't do that, but I'm learning. Like you. You kind of have to. For them, too. Not just for yourself, for sure. So I respect that a lot.

[B]

And it gets tricky with family, too, with boundaries.

[A]

Oh. You know, because you're related to somebody doesn't mean they get to.

[B]

I'm sure you've got it.

[A]

Not have boundaries. Yeah. Yeah. And that. That sucks. It really does, because it feels like in the moment, you think you're better than them or beyond them.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But it's not that at all. It's actually that I susceptible to. Probably end up doing really, really dumb stuff to try to please him.

[B]

Yeah. And for me, you know, this probably happened to you, too, but some of them counted me out, and I try not to hold a grudge. I think it's dangerous.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I saw what happened with my father. His parents, like, were tough on him. Well, you know, grew up on a farm, physically abused him and stuff, but he had so much resentment, and he died with it, and I saw that. You saw it? Yeah, bro. So I don't want that, you know?

[A]

I mean, we're at the wellness thing, and can I just go on record to say, like, I don't know much, but I do have a sauna. All right. But, like. Like, I don't know much, but I know enough to know, like, forgiveness. Forgiveness is underrated. Like, really. And by the way, just because you forgive somebody one time doesn't mean you might have to forgive them again the next day. But, like, I say it out loud. My practice. I'm dead serious. I forgive you. Like, like, they're right in front of me. I forgive you. And I say their name. And there are a few people in my life still I have to forgive every single day because I feel like overnight that resentment grows again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you got to cut it at the root again.

[B]

Sneaky, bro.

[A]

And it ages people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it really does. And then you start seeing other people through the lens of that one person. So now you're letting that person who hurt you, who you despise, affect and color all of your other relationships. So I'm a big man. Forgiveness for me is, like, in my line of work, freely I have been forgiven. So freely I give. Forgiveness doesn't mean. Forgiveness doesn't mean you got to be somebody's friend, but forgiveness means you got to let them go and you got to set them free, man. I've had people walk up to me and say, I just want you to know I forgive you. And the thing is, Mike, I didn't even. I hadn't even thought of them. And here they had been holding something against me for how many years? And they came up to me like, I forgive you. And I was thinking, man, this whole time you didn't even have to wait till you saw me. You could have just forgave me and, and moved on. So, wow. I agree, bro. We could talk all about that. It's a passion of mine for bitterness.

[B]

So you. Do you have a line when it comes to forgiveness or do you think everyone deserves it?

[A]

I don't know about the word deserve. And I'll be honest with you. I really hesitate with the term almost completely. I think in the sense, I'm not sure what we all deserve, but it's probably not a lot of great things. I'm a deplorable, foolish, self serving nightmare. And I'm grateful that life is a gift. I don't remember choosing my birthday. I don't remember choosing the generation. I was born. I just got here by a gift. I am a direct result of God's gift. And so I don't know how much I'm owed or I deserve, but I do believe that everybody can forgive and everybody can be forgiven. I do, fundamentally. In fact, I don't think I can go forward in my line of work if. If that's not at my core.

[B]

Wow. Yeah, that's profound, man.

[A]

Man, I believe it. I really, really believe it. And I mean, I believe it all the way. Even the people that our culture says it can't be forgiven. If I can be forgiven, anybody can be forgiven. And that's how I feel.

[B]

So even the guys in prison committed some serious stuff.

[A]

I was saying in the car ride to see you, I was like, bro, if pushed long enough, hard enough in the right set of circumstances, I feel like I'm capable of just about anything, you know? Like I. I mean, I'm a really, like really average, selfish guy who every day I feel like, man, God has been gracious and kind to me and I got really good friends. And to me, I replay that story of forgiveness, you know, and it just, it kind of sets every day in motion for me. So, yeah, I'm a big. I'm a big forgiver.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

I'm a big forgiver.

[B]

Do you think God is like constantly testing us with challenges?

[A]

No, no, I think God is constantly available to us. I think, I think life has a level of free will that forms its way into moments of testing for sure. So do I think we're tested? Absolutely. Do I think God does the testing? Not so much. I think we do the testing. I think free will does the testing. But I do think every day there's a moment where you get to do something that you tell yourself nobody will ever know about, but you'll know about. And then you got to live with you, bro.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Like I was telling somebody, I was like, no matter how much money you got, you still got to go to bed with you. You still got to go to the bathroom with you. Like, you can have 12 bathrooms, but you still got to go to the bathroom with you. So the misnomer, too. I mean, Jesus said, what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, but in the process lose his own soul? He, his essence, his ability to accept himself, his ability to approve himself? Or in the case of Jesus, he said, love your neighbor as you love yourself? So in other words, if you don't love yourself, you'll never be good at loving your neighbor. I think the dilemma we have in culture and continents and countries is we're not good at loving our neighbor because we don't know how to love ourselves. We don't know how to love ourselves. And if you can't forgive yourselves, you're not going to forgive anybody else. I really know how to forgive myself, and that really helps me forgive others.

[B]

So, so true, man. You're right, though. I mean, there's some stuff I did as a kid I'm not proud of, but I still live with it, you know? I still think about it. So crazy. It happened like, 25 years ago, but I still think about it, you know?

[A]

And you're hard on yourself, aren't you?

[B]

Yeah, because I. I don't know, still think about it. It's like silly stuff, too. Like, if I said it out loud, it's nothing crazy. Yeah. But I don't know how to get rid of that.

[A]

But, you know, you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm just going to tell you the truth. Look in front of a mirror. Even if you don't believe it, just do it. Look in front of a mirror. Say your name. Say your middle name if you need to. I'm Judah Elwood Smith. Elwood's pretty cool middle name, though. Yeah. But anyways, Judah. And my buddy owns the company Elwood now, which is great. But anyways, Judah Elwood Smith. And I literally look in the mirror and say, judah Elwood Smith, I forgive you and I love you and I believe you. It matters, by the way, you know, we're here at this incredible conference. What you hear is powerful. Scientifically, psychologically, emotionally, like, metaphorically, the whole. All the E's. Okay? It matters. So if you can look yourself in the mirror and tell yourself you forgive yourself. And I would take it a step further to tell yourself you forgive yourself for the very specific thing that keeps coming to your mind. I forgive you for cheating on your girlfriend in 2010. I forgive you. I think it makes a difference, man. Even if you don't believe the stuff I believe from this ancient, mystical, magical book.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like you hearing yourself say to yourself, looking yourself in the eyes, that you forgive you. Oh, baby.

[B]

Affirmation.

[A]

Oh, baby. That's better than Red Light Therapy.

[B]

Shout out to Heavenly Heat song.

[A]

That's right. Heavenly. We love you. We love you.

[B]

Got the red light in the song. What temperature do you. Do you hit yourself?

[A]

Yeah, thanks for asking, Mike. I'm at about a 178 or so. Is that 178 degrees, by the way? Is that what that is?

[B]

It goes to 160. Mine goes to 165. I don't know what model you have.

[A]

Wait, bro, I feel terrible. Mine goes to 190.

[B]

What?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

You guys gotta send me that hook.

[A]

Mike up.

[B]

190 is hot.

[A]

It is hot.

[B]

Yeah. Red light. That's hot.

[A]

Yeah. I'm pretty. I'm pretty proud. Yeah.

[B]

Come on, Warren, hook me up, man. 165 out here. You got me.

[A]

Made my day. That my sauna gets hotter than your sauna. These are a couple of first world guys here. Right now. The whole world's plagued, but we're talking about how hot our saunas get. I love this podcast.

[B]

Hey, we've worked hard, man.

[A]

Yeah, we have.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

God is good.

[B]

You've mentioned love a few times. Now I want to talk about love.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I grew up in a divorced household.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

And tough love is what I'd call it. Yeah. With my Asian mother. Because that's the love she received growing up.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

It was tough, man. So I didn't know how to love, basically in the way my wife wanted to receive love. So that's been a process for me for our whole relationship, learning how to love.

[A]

Wow. I mean, how do you define love?

[B]

Oh, right. Gosh. I never even thought about that, to be honest. We just hear the word love, I guess. Caring and compassion.

[A]

This is. Okay. So I'm trying to. I'm trying to sound weird. So I define love as a person. I define grace as a person. I define mercy as a Person. Here's where I think there's a little bit of a disconnect. I think we take love and we make it a principle, but when we take love and we make it a person, it changes. And here's what I mean. So for me, love becomes this dynamic more than a force, it's a person. And I believe so. The scripture says of Jesus in John, chapter one, that grace and truth. It doesn't say that Jesus brought grace and truth. It says that he embodied grace and truth. So he is the personification of these kind of these essential concepts for the human experience. So I believe Jesus is love. What that means for me is I can walk and talk with love. I can watch love, I can read about love. I can see what love does. Because as much as, like, we can get into, like, love is this unconditional emotional connection. Love is. There's as many people as there on the planet. There are all these definitions of love. The reason I love love as a person is because it gives me this dynamic reference every single day of what it looks like to love. This morning I woke up, I took a Tylenol PM last night because I had a big. I had like neck pain. And I get up and I'm really, really tired. This morning I got up late, bro, like 10:40, okay? I love to sleep. Oh, Mike, I could. I could out sleep in anybody, okay? I love sleeping in. And I got up and to be honest, I was hoping because my wife was still sleeping because she's had some back and neck pains, we need to get a new mattress. There's got to be somebody at this conference get me a new mattress. But anyways, and I was like, man, I don't really want to get her coffee. I'm so tired. I'm trying to get this liquid iv. I wish they sponsored me. But I go down to get a liquid iv and I come up and I'm going. I take a bath every morning, so I'm going to do my bat. And I hear a rustle. And I'm like, oh, man, I'm tired. I hope she doesn't ask for a coffee. I'm like, ah, man. And she's like, hey, baby, can you get me a coffee? And I was like. And again, I know this is not a big deal to anybody else, but it's a big deal to me when you're tired and you just want to get in your hot bath. And I was like, no problem, baby, no problem. I go to back downstairs and I'm trying to remember, does she Want decaf or regular? Because she's been kind of vacillating. So I go back upstairs and I said, baby, did you want decaf or regular? She's like, regular. I was like, yeah, yeah, I knew that. I knew that. Go back downstairs. A lot of people would be like, love is getting coffee for the person you love in the morning. I know this sounds stupid and silly, but I'm being dead serious. Love for me is a man who lived, who at 33, like, we have more proof of Jesus Christ of Nazareth than Abraham Lincoln. That is a fact. I mean, you know that fact. We have, we have more actual literal proof of the life of Jesus Christ than the life of Abraham Lincoln. Look it up, baby, look it up. Well, you definitely will, probably. But anyways, so like he actually lived. Now whether or not you believe the claims that I believe Jesus died at 33, his death was a death that took on the sins of the world. Now, now we get into scientific stuff and that is you can even find proof that the whole, the whole, the whole sky goes dark, there's an earthquake, the curtain in the temple is torn in two. Here's what we know. We know that his life, death, burial, ascension, alleged resurrection, all of it is transcendent and it has stood the test of time, which by the way, it should be noted. Empire and dictators and horrific leaders over the years have tried to eradicate and literally eliminate the story of Jesus and the life of Jesus. And yet it persists still. We are here today and this magical mystical book still exists. It shouldn't exist. There are whole empires, they made it their entire goal to stamp out the existence of the Bible and yet it still exists. So here's what we know. There's something about this Jesus guy that is unusual. Here's what I believe about Jesus. He literally became sin. So he takes in his body every wrong, self serving, self absorbed thing I've ever done. And man, I have done so much and I've wanted to do more. He's taken it on himself. And I know this sounds so dumb, but when. That is my definition of love. Do you know one of the seven things Jesus said while he hung on the cross for six hours, suffocating in his own blood? Because Roman crucifixion of course is you die from suffocation, you can't breathe anymore because your lungs filled with blood, so to speak, would be agonizing. One of the seven things, six things he says, or seven things in six hours. It's one or the other he says, father Forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. They don't know what they're doing, which is to say, by the way, they knew where to put the nails. They knew how to put the corn. They put them on the cross. It looks like they know what they're doing. But he's saying, we don't really know what we're doing. And to be honest with you, Mike, as I sit here, part of my job at 47 now is people want to sit with me and, like, what do you think God says about this? And what do you think the Bible says about this? And what does biblical history says about this? And the truth is, I really don't know what I'm doing. I'm doing the best I can. Like, we're just two guys talking to each other, and you're telling me about your history and your mom and tough love. And my first response is like, damn. Like, that's hard, bro. And I don't really know what we're doing, but I know that we're here together at the same time for a reason. And what I know is that I have been loved by this man, Jesus. And one of the words that I love that he said is, father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. So if he forgave me 2,000 years ago, Judah's not going to know what he's doing. But forgive him, Father. Forgive him. That kind of outrageous, unconditional outlandish love sets my days in motion. And call me silly, call me trite, call me taking this way too far, but I'm dead serious when I say my wife's like, I need a cup of coffee. And I think to myself, and I know it's ridiculous. Jesus went to a cross. Look at the life he lived. It's my honor to get my wife a cup of coffee. I will say, then I made the bed. Now I'm really bragging. And she said, you know what? She said this today. She goes, you know what? You are literally the best husband. And the truth is, Mike, I'm not even top, like 1 million, okay? But to her, getting some coffee, making the bed. And I don't know, I think we want to solve world hunger and we want world peace. But, you know, we could start with getting somebody a cup of coffee and making our bed and starting to practice little acts of love. For me, I'm informed by this incredible life that Jesus lived. He's my hero. And I would argue, anyone out there, no matter what you believe about doctrine, Dogma, religion, all the different world religions. If you lived and loved and looked more like Jesus, your spouse, your family, your friends, your neighbors, your co workers would probably be incredibly appreciative.

[B]

I got a couple people that live like that. Wow. They told me whenever they make a decision, they're like, what would Jesus do? That's their framework for operator.

[A]

That's me, baby. Like, I just. It's that. It's that cliche. I hadn't even ever worn a wwjd, but maybe.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. What would Jesus do?

[A]

What would Jesus do? You remember that? Do you ever. You ever see those WWJD bracelets? You remember that? Yeah.

[B]

That was a big deal. You didn't sell those.

[A]

I didn't sell them. Bra. Should have.

[B]

Well, you would have made a lot. Would have made a lot.

[A]

Bring them back. You and me going business together with wwjd.

[B]

Do a DSH collab.

[A]

Okay. Wwjd.

[B]

Someone probably owns that trademark.

[A]

Yeah. By now for sure. And we're probably gonna get sued, to be honest. You and me both.

[B]

We're not gonna sell them.

[A]

Guys, we're joking. Relax.

[B]

That's a powerful framework. So you view love as a person. I've never heard that take before. That's very interesting.

[A]

It's. He's changed my life, man. I really, really mean that. Like, it's. And I'll be honest, at this stage, I'm at. I'm really hesitant with the term Christian. Like, I really am. I just think a lot of really painful things have happened in human history with the name Christian.

[B]

You're not wrong.

[A]

And I. So even when people are like, are you a Christian? I'm like, I love Jesus. I follow Jesus. And there's a little bit more dynamo there. It's a little bit more dynamic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I also, like, I respect everyone's desires for certain policies and governments to have policies, but to me, I try not to. I'm not a policymaker. I don't think my expertise are in policy making. I don't know how to run a country, and I definitely barely know how to run my own life. And God does that for me. So I steer clear of a lot of that. So the collusion a little bit with, like, you know, religion and policymakers gets a little cloudy sometimes for me. So I agree. I'm careful with that. So I like following Jesus.

[B]

You said God runs your life. Where does free will come in?

[A]

I'm. So there's, like, these mystic writers that I agree with a lot in past and the, this tension they speak of, that truth, you know, the two opposites tension, all that. But truth has a tension to it. And so I think there is a. I am philosophically or theologically, for those out there who are into theology. I believe in the protecting of free will and sovereignty at the same time, which a lot of people. There are certain writers and thinkers that I like a lot that have kind of upheld these ideas, but I believe in, in protecting both. So I'm in a little bit of a theological conundrum, but I believe both are in play if I err. So here's my take on theology. You're going to err one way or the other. Free will or sovereignty. I always am going to err in God's direction, so I'm gonna err in more sovereignty. But for instance, I believe there are wars, diseases, pestilences, and all kinds of things that are actually the direct result of a free will.

[B]

Really?

[A]

And things set in motion in the planet.

[B]

Wow, that's fascinating. So certain worst, certain diseases, you think men was responsible for those?

[A]

Yeah, I think free will choices along the way, compounded, have, have brought about certain situations and scenarios. Yeah. That are far beyond my expertise, but. And then I think I'm confused on when I want God to show up and when I don't. So when something bad happens, God, where were you? But when I'm doing my thing and want to do what I want to do, I don't want God involved.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think we are fickle that way.

[B]

Are we? Yeah, we are.

[A]

When do I want God?

[B]

It makes me think, like, is bad and is, Is evil necessary? Right. Could it. Is it possible to live within just a good. Or. I don't know.

[A]

I mean, I don't know, but I got a lot of bad and evil in me. I know that. Like, I mean, I, I. This one dude came up. This is, this is my reality. I'm playing golf today with my friends. This guy rolls up, he's like, yo, what tea time you guys have? And, you know, with that tone, like, we had cut. And I was like. And I was like, 9:28 or whatever. And it was like 9:30. And he's like, all right, all right. And I was like, say one more thing, bro, and I'm gonna let you have it. But he didn't. So I didn't. But, like, I'm capable of just crazy stuff.

[B]

So I had to fight at the golf course.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah, I was about to fight it, but I had a couple of big friends there. We would have been all right. I'm kidding. I've never gotten in a fight.

[B]

I've never gotten knock on wood.

[A]

Is that right?

[B]

Yeah, knock on wood. We don't want to jinx ourselves.

[A]

This is. What.

[B]

If I ever did in the future, I would not be the initiator, I think. Yeah. You know what I mean? It'd be like a last resort thing. Yeah.

[A]

I'm not really that guy. You know what I mean? Like, I want to pretend as deflection, but. But no, I'm a lover, bro. I'm not a fighter. It's the truth.

[B]

Fighter flight. I am a flight kind of guy.

[A]

Yeah. We'll run together. You got long legs. I'll try to keep up.

[B]

I got some track in me, man. Used to run the mile.

[A]

How fast you run the mile in 440. Wait, what?

[B]

Mike, I was a fast high school twig. I was 100. 100 what? 160 pounds, 150 pounds. I was like, if I showed you a photo of me, you wouldn't even recognize me.

[A]

This guy ran the mile in 440 in high school.

[B]

That's not. That's not fast anymore.

[A]

So what'd you run the mile in West?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, so it's not fast, huh? Mike, would. You would beat west for sure. Barely. Barely. Yeah, but.

[B]

But now kids are running 410, 420 in high school.

[A]

Are they really? Yeah.

[B]

Kids are different these days, bro.

[A]

They are different.

[B]

Some guy just. I don't know if you follow track, but he ran the 100 meters in 1006. Some 16 year old in Australia, almost 10 flat. Almost 10 flat. Out of 16 years old, the world record is Usain Bolt at I think 9.5 or something. 9.44. Oh, kids are different, man. Bro.

[A]

Usain Boat was nasty.

[B]

Yeah, he was a beast.

[A]

Oh, my word. That was so fun watching him.

[B]

I mean, I hated it as American, but as a competitor, I loved it.

[A]

Yeah, you know better. Yeah. I want our guys to win. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

Oh, last question. I've never asked to guess this, but I thought would be the perfect one to ask us to. What do you want on your tombstone,

[A]

bro? That is the craziest thing that you asked me that and here's why. I traveled for six to seven years with my dad. I first started going on stage when I was like 8, 9, 10 years old. I had this little bit with my dad. My dad had auditoriums full of like 500 to 1500 students. And one of the last questions he would Ask in his seminar is, what do you want on your tombstone? No way. When you die.

[B]

And I chose to ask you. And it's never asked someone this before.

[A]

Nuh.

[B]

Yeah. I swear. 2000 episodes. I've never asked to guess this question.

[A]

Mike, that's cr. So my dad would do this bit where he talked about Guinness Book of World and Records. This guy sat in pork and beans. So my dad would be like, what do you want on your tombstone? Sat in pork and beans and died. You know, like. Like doing something that matters. Doing something that makes a difference. And so you're asking a question that has so much backend for me, it is overwhelming. Like, I'm trying to just, like, not tell you the whole history that I have with that. With that.

[B]

What are the odds of that?

[A]

So I feel very passionate about this question. Very passionate. And I don't think I'm gonna cry. I'll try not to, but yeah. So I think the reason, like, I'm like, setting up the question, but I think the reason the tombstone question matters to me is it's like, what, What. What is this all about? What do you want to be known for? What really matters. And I mean, bro, I just can't believe you asked that question. So I'm not going to. I'm not going to cry. I'm not going to cry.

[B]

You're good. If you need a lot of.

[A]

I cry on most podcasts, but we were in a really good pocket. I wasn't going to cry. I think. I think. You know what's wild, Mike? Like, my answer's changed over the years for sure.

[B]

As it should.

[A]

I feel like. I think people are the prize. I think we can't see God. We can feel him, we can hear him, but we get to see each other. And I think. I hope that, like, somebody puts on. By the way, I still don't. I haven't decided if I want to be cremated or where I, you know, where I'm trying to be. But do you also, like, not care sometimes or is that just me? Like, I'm just like, you guys can bear me anyhow.

[B]

I kind of go back and forth on it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm leaning towards cremation.

[A]

Are you?

[B]

Just because.

[A]

But do you want a plaque and everything?

[B]

I don't care.

[A]

Like, if I'm doing your service, what do you want me, like. Judah, we're not having this conversation. I do a lot of funerals, by the way.

[B]

Oh, you do?

[A]

Yeah. For what it's worth.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or weddings. Well, I just, like, I could have done your wedding, but that's funerals.

[B]

You know, the cast gets expensive. I feel like cremation is just quick and. Yeah. You know, affordable. When we had a bury, my. My wife's father was just so expensive on the family is just, like, awful. Not the best experience, bro.

[A]

You know, open casket, like. I got some stories, man. Wild, wild stories. Yeah. Okay. My tombstones. Your last question. You've done. He's done 17 podcasts today. Pride, my name and that. And that I made people the prize. That I made people the prize.

[B]

I like that one. I'm not.

[A]

There's nothing more valuable and more beautiful than people. I literally do want to say, Mike, like, I appreciate what you do a lot. Thank you. In terms of what I do, I feel like you give people a real opportunity to grow and better themselves and see the world better and bigger and brighter, and I'm really grateful for you. I mean that. Thanks for having me on.

[B]

Thanks for doing what you do, man. Really fun episode. Let's hit the sauna, man. See you guys. Thanks for watching all the way to the end, guys. Means a lot. Please click here if you want to watch the next episode and please subscribe to the show. It helps us get more guests and helps grow the brand.