← Digital Social Hour
Digital Social Hour
Men Won't Want to Marry After Hearing This... | DSH #2002
00:44:34
| DSH #2002 Are men being lied to about dating, marriage, success, and what women actually want? In this Digital Social Hour episode, Sean sits down with Richard Cooper for a raw conversation about modern relationships, the manosphere, marriage, divorce, dating apps, fatherhood, prenups, social media, and why so many men feel completely lost in today’s dating market. Richard breaks down why he believes the manosphere has a serious branding problem, why mainstream documentaries keep framing men’s content as toxic, and why many young men are rejecting the traditional path of marriage, family, and long-term commitment. The conversation gets into the hard questions most people avoid. Why are so many men afraid of marriage? Why do dating apps feel impossible for average men? Why are more women owning real estate than men? Why do so many long-term relationships lose attraction? And why does Richard believe men need to stop complaining to women and start building real male support sy...
Loading summary
Transcript166 lines
- [00:00]
A
Women don't care about men's struggles. They hang out at the finish line and they fuck the winners.
- [00:04]
B
I just found out recently that more women own real estate than men now in America.
- [00:07]
A
Yeah, but they don't tell you. Most of that comes from divorce though. And they found after about 8.3 years, less than 13% of couples still love each other.
- [00:19]
B
Okay, guys, got someone. I've been trying to get on for a while now. We got Richard Cooper tuning in virtually Bay from Canada. How you been, Rich? Good, man.
- [00:25]
A
How you doing, Sean?
- [00:27]
B
I'm good. I want to start off with the Manosphere documentary. Came out last week. It's been pretty viral. How did you feel after watching that?
- [00:33]
A
I mean, it's what I expected. It was going to be a hit piece from the get go when you saw the sizzle reel like the trailer for it. The Manosphere has a really bad PR reputation. They don't have anybody capable of fixing it. And you know, they really just wanted to make guys look bad. I think there's some good information that comes from creators in the space. I was heavily involved in it years ago, but I moved away just because the PR issue and it just didn't have anybody capable of fixing it nor anybody seemed really wanting to fix it. And I think that it, that it needs a serious reinvention, if I'm being honest. Because anytime anybody covers it, it's always from the angle of, look at these toxic guys. They all have the world upside down and there's genuinely some good ideas and some good strategies that you can take from it. But I think a lot of the creators that sell it or purport to sell it or have something around the economics of, of building, you know, content for guys really screwed up pretty badly. I mean, you saw that with a, what was the name? H.S. tikitaki. I'd never heard of that guy before. I had watched the documentary, but yeah, he was an interesting character.
- [01:41]
B
I knew three of the four guys. I'm sure your friends are acquaintances with them as well. And they, they all knew it was a hit piece going into it. That was kind of the interesting part. They were all recording from their end as well to get their perspective. And Myron has been releasing some behind the scenes stuff and kind of exposing their side too. But I, I, I, I don't know, like, if you got asked to be on that, would you do it?
- [02:03]
A
I generally don't do documentaries that mention the world word Manosphere, because I want to stay away from the Manosphere. I've done, I'VE done shows on news, talk radio and panels and stuff like that, and that's usually easier to do because it's live. But I find these guys that are like, hey, they DM you or they send you an email. I get one or two a year where they're saying, you know, we're doing a documentary on men and men's spaces in the manosphere, and we wanted to interview you, ask you some questions. I just don't want to have the association with some of the guys of low moral character. You know, if you lay with dogs and you're going to get fleas, you know, for the most part, I'm not suggesting all the guys on the documentary were that bad, but the way that they're always going to be portrayed by the mainstream media, you really got to have your T's crossed and your I's dotted. And I think the only person we saw in that documentary that was really tight in his messaging was Justin Waller, maybe Sneako to some degree, but they really made Myron look bad with that situation with Angie.
- [03:02]
B
Yeah, 100%. So do you feel like the red pill in the menosphere kind of got out of hand a few years ago?
- [03:07]
A
I mean, it's been out of hand for a while, if I'm being honest with you. Like, you get a lot of guys, like, there's no. It's a permissionless environment. You don't need the permission of anybody to broadcast. Now this is something that, that had gatekeepers, you know, 20 years ago. Right. If you wanted a cable deal or a show, you know, you had to qualify to be able to broadcast. And they would, and they would closely monitor the sort of content. And I think that, you know, when you're a, a more seasoned creator in this space, you're a little more careful. You know, I spent 20, 25 years as an entrepreneur helping people get out of credit card debt. I'm not afraid to say or do anything that would land on the front page of like, the Toronto Star, the biggest newspaper in Canada, because I stand by my messaging and my name. But I think a lot of these guys, they, they, they haven't quite gotten to the point where they know how to get consistent, clear, deliverable, actionable messaging out. And it's always twisted and misinterpreted, as you saw, with, you know, the way the documentary was put out.
- [04:00]
B
Yeah, I kind of see it as like the counter to the feminist movement. Right. How both sides are just really polar and extreme.
- [04:06]
A
It is. And it doesn't really do anybody any Good, because if you can get men and women to come together, that they're typically better together than they are apart. But it's like these. These guys tend to push men away from interacting correctly on the sexual marketplace. And I think you get a lot of these toxic feminists on the other side who are more or less just kind of like man haters, or almost like a supremacy type of movement at this point, where all men are essentially deemed to be evil and bad. And that's why you got the segregation. But men need leadership. Men need guys to sort of assist them, navigate. To navigate through life. Because a lot of guys come from fatherless homes. A lot of guys are misled through. They're plugged into comforting lies that don't serve them. You know, my entire model, really, is to unplug guys from the lies that have been told and set them on a path that helps them update their belief system that they can then use and apply to get the results that they want with things like relationships, money, friendships, and all that kind of stuff.
- [05:02]
B
What kind of movement would you tie that to? Or is it your own that you created?
- [05:05]
A
It's my own. I mean, again, you know, I tend not to associate that much with too many of those guys in the space because they're unpredictable. They do some of the wildest things on the side. Like, there's a chapter in my most recent book where I call it the Mantle Swamp. And like, the name itself, Manosphere, it sounds like a gay nightclub. It doesn't sound like anything. Some cohesion, if you know what I mean. So it's got a real bad branding issue. And you've got guys that come into the space that are getting kids incarcerated for the pickup artistry courses. There's guys that are in the space that say, you know, I've got this beautiful, compliant wife that brings other women into the bedroom. And, you know, we have bisexual encounters all the time. And then you hear the recording that's been captioned and put out publicly of him talking about his wife or his girlfriend, really beating him, like physically assaulting him, and he has no control over the relationship. You have men that'll create content and say, stay away from single moms. And then they're found to be in a marriage with a single mom sort of thing. Right. So.
- [06:01]
B
Right.
- [06:02]
A
There's really no strong consistency. There's no strong leadership in that space, in my opinion. And with the absence of that void, like vacuums fill and they're going to fill with whatever will, will fill it up. That gets the Attention of young persuadable men. Right. The new thing now are, are these looks maxer guys, right? You get this Clav kid who's on trend, smashing his bones, taking crystal meth, talking about lengthen his limbs even though he's 6 foot 2. None of this stuff makes sense. And he'll even admit on his streams that the only reason why women are there is because the attention, because the validation of the stream and the number count going down. And he knows that when that's off, then they go away. So really, looks maxing isn't about the attraction part, although that's what he's selling.
- [06:40]
B
Yeah, let's, let's dive into that. When you think about traits that men should be focusing on, where do you rank looks? Do you think status is more important?
- [06:48]
A
Developing renown for yourself is real important. Which, which kind of stuff, you know, ties in a lot to status. I mean, looks are important. You can't look like a slob. You have to have a certain degree of style. You can't be out of shape. You have to present your will. You have to be well spoken. It's good to have a network. It's good to be respected and acknowledged by your peers. It's good to be a man that other men want to be and other women want to be with. So I think status does matter. And there's several spokes to what accounts for a high value man. I don't think that focusing just on one spoke, it's like having a wheel that's got spokes down it and you've got one spoke that measures from the hub to the wheel, but the rest don't. You're kind of letting yourself down in the other areas, you know, areas like creating, you know, wealth for yourself, creating a level of renown for yourself. You know, things like that, being captivating. Like there's a lot of guys out there that could look great, great on camera, but they're boring as hell. And no, and no woman wants to spend a prolonged period of time with them because you can't. Because you can do anything to a woman except for bore her.
- [07:42]
B
Right, right. And for women, it seems like guys really care about looks the most. You know what I mean? Especially the younger guys.
- [07:49]
A
Yeah, I mean, for men, you know, Dr. Warren Farrell talks about this. He's researched as probably the most of any that I've seen. You know, it seems like men look upon women as, as beauty slash sex objects, and women look upon men as success objects. You know, which is why where a man has Arrived in life for anything long term. For women, they always look at his future. And that's why I tell guys on the flip side, I mean, if you're going to invite a woman into your life on a permanent basis, you got to look at her past to see what she's done, to see where she's been, you know, to see what she spent her time doing.
- [08:19]
B
So you believe the past matters. So that's, that's kind of like it
- [08:22]
A
matters a lot more.
- [08:23]
B
Yeah, for a lot more than men,
- [08:25]
A
for women, because women are more interested in our future. Right. Can we provide, Are we able to lead a family? Can we raise children? You know, like, are we a proper man that's competent and has resolve? Whereas for men, we're more interested in their purity. Like, there's no guy that's ever gotten married to a woman and thought to himself, gee, you know, I wish my wife had slept with 52 more guys before we got married. That's an incredibly rare thought to go through a man's head, with the exception of sub cuckolds out there. But, you know, generally speaking, men are very interested in a woman's past.
- [08:53]
B
Yeah, yeah. The average age of marriage, I just found out from Rolo, is 30. Now, for women, by the time they're that age, I'd imagine their body count's somewhat high, you know, these days.
- [09:03]
A
Yeah. And it's pretty difficult to assess an accurate number. You really can't ask them. They don't usually volunteer an accurate number. They'll kind of cook something up. Most of the time, you hear I say just double it or triple it. And I don't even know if that's going to get you where you want to be. But I think paying attention to her past and her past behaviors, how she spent her 20s, you know, did she travel a lot, you know, she spent a lot of time, you know, with her girlfriends away. Cancun, Ibiza, bachelorette parties, foam can parties, stuff like that. Like, that's how you can really assess the caliber and quality of a woman.
- [09:33]
B
Do you think the best approach these days is the passport broke model where you're going for women in other countries, if you can afford that, it can
- [09:39]
A
be, but you want to stay there. I think the mistake a lot of these passport bros make is they think the grass is greener on the other side, but the grass is greener where you water and fertilize it. And if you don't understand what you're doing in North America and you go somewhere like Colombia or Asia or you know, like one of the other places where you see a lot of passport bros go. Sure, yeah. Your sexual market value might be higher because you're Caucasian. In another country where Caucasians are valued higher, your money will probably go further because the cost of living is lower over there. But if you suck with women in Scottsdale, Arizona, you're going to suck with women in Bangkok, Thailand. Right?
- [10:14]
B
Yeah. So you're, you're saying to develop the
- [10:16]
A
skills first develop the man. Absolutely.
- [10:20]
B
So do you think you should wait till you have a bankroll or what? What should they be developing exactly?
- [10:25]
A
Well, it depends what the goal is. I mean, if you want to have a family, which seems to be what most guys still push for hard. Even though I tell men all the time, like smart men don't get married. You know, I've got a chapter in one of my books on the topic specifically. But you have to be very, very careful about that. You know, inviting women to your life changes the economic model. It changes your risk exposure dramatically. And I think if you, if that's what your goal is, then you have to develop a level of renown for yourself, but also have the capabilities of dealing with a woman over the long term. Because most men, what they usually find out, you know, there's a really interesting study by A. Ron and Acevedo and they found after about 8.3 years, less than 13% of couples still love each other. And less than 3% of couples would define the relationship as blissful, like them being in a state of bliss for one another. So as a, as a relationship model goes, like committed long term relationships that look like marriage or living together or anything around, something like that, they generally don't work out in the way that most men expect. Right. Like they'll go and do all the right things. They tell men do what's right. They tell women do what's right for you. So they'll go and do the right things. They'll invite her, you know, they'll invite her into his life, commit to her, be exclusive to her, be sexually monogamous with her, buy her a house, have the children, all that. But they don't have the game part. They don't understand what women respond to. They don't understand what keeps women going over the long term to keep them interested in them. I call it genuine burning desire. And that's why you see those stats where it's like so few people are actually, actually like each other after eight years.
- [11:58]
B
Yeah, that's one of the craziest stats I've ever heard. I did not know that. Yeah.
- [12:01]
A
It's 23 years, you go look it up.
- [12:03]
B
Yeah. Only 13% still love each other. And that's just self admitted. It could be even lower. That's crazy.
- [12:09]
A
Yeah, so that's reported obviously, so could be even lower. You're right.
- [12:13]
B
Yeah. Yeah. That's nuts. Wow. I wonder how much of that is biological versus just like environment or both. You know what I mean? There's a lot going on.
- [12:20]
A
Well, I think a lot of the times, you know, when you spend too much time, like there's proxim familiarity and there's exclusivity and I think these three iddies, if you don't manage them properly and you give her too much of what she wants too soon and you're not able to say no and you're not able to know when to sort of pull back and give her a little bit less, you give her too much certainty in all those areas and she's going to grow to dislike you. And many men get punished over the long term. Like the worst punishment for most men is getting divorced. They lose access to half their stuff, they're alienated from their own children and that's how they get black pilled. Right.
- [12:51]
B
Yeah, that's what happened to my dad. Two divorces destroyed him mentally. He was never the same, honestly.
- [12:57]
A
Yeah. And. And it's hard for a lot of guys to really navigate back into the sexual marketplace and have a productive relationship that actually works for them. Some guys will go looking for answers like that's kind of what I did. Like I got divorced when I was 39 and yeah, I didn't really understand why I had a problem with women over the long term. The attraction component was never an issue for me. Right. It was just why, why did I have more and more difficulty with a woman as the year sort of went on? And it's like you got less respect, they were less useful in your life. They were, you know, the contempt would accelerate. And contempt is a clock that ticks down to the end of all relationships. Once you start getting contempt from a girlfriend or a wife, like it's pretty much done at that point.
- [13:37]
B
Yeah, it was a struggle for him. I can definitely relate to that. I mean, especially at that age. The dating pool is kind of limited if you're still single as a woman in your 40s and 50s, you know what I mean? Um, so he ended up just going the prostitute route because he said it actually saved the money. So I don't know what you think about that.
- [13:54]
A
But that's funny, a lot of guys will say that like you're paying them anyway. So you're just paying them to leave now at that point is kind of what they're thinking is on that.
- [14:01]
B
Yeah, yeah. I don't know. With AI sex robots coming out, I think that's going to be more, more of a thing as the, that'll be
- [14:08]
A
an interesting guys don't see over the years.
- [14:11]
B
Yeah, I mean guys don't have game now. When you look at the stats of virgins think it's like what, 25% now my generation of virgins. Which is crazy.
- [14:19]
A
And even when you give them the tools and you show them how everything works, a lot of guys are now saying it's just not worth it. You know, the juice is not worth the squeeze. I'm not going to jump through all these hoops and be a dancing monkey to get someone that's got three kids from two different men and has been through like 30 guys. And to some degree I don't like, I kind of don't blame them. But if your value's higher and you know, you do something with your life of some significance, you're in a better position to, to get better terms with women. Right. Like you can select better women, you can select from a, a broader pool and allow only the cream to rise to the top. But that's work and a lot of guys don't want to do it. And I understand that part of it as well. Not that I agree with it, but I get where they're coming from.
- [14:59]
B
Yeah, I've seen you talk about women with kids from other relationships. So that's a deal breaker for you. Right?
- [15:04]
A
It's, it's not a wise choice for a top shelf guy to invite a woman with children from prior relationships in your life. It's generally like low hanging fruit. It's easier to get. They're usually more willing to make concessions for the kind of guy that they can get. They still have relatively high demands. But I mean if you're not doing well finding younger, single, more fertile, attractive women without children in tow, a lot of these guys will just settle for, you know, a good looking 39 year old single mom with three kids from two different daddies and they seem to be happy with that until, you know, they move in together and then all of a sudden he's got to play stepdad and he finds he's got responsibility to parent but without much authority and then all the other problems that sort of come along with that too.
- [15:46]
B
Yeah, the risk to reward isn't there. So do you see dating and marriage is more like a business partnership in your eyes?
- [15:52]
A
I think men see it still as romantic, like men are still in love. And I think women are more in business than they are in love. Not that women can't be in love, but I think that for them it's a lot more practical when it comes to the idea of a committed long term relationship in marriage. That's why I see a lot of women push for marriage when they can latch their trailer to a high value man. Right. Because it's like they know that family law is in their favor. They know that if it doesn't work out and there's no prenup in place that they'll be well taken care of. So why wouldn't they push for that?
- [16:24]
B
Yup. You see all these athletes. I don't know if you follow sports, but Luke, you saw what happened to Luka Donkic, that one NFL player.
- [16:31]
A
Yeah. I mean, you know, it's a story after story after story. It's not just like me toos, it's also divorces. I mean, you know, one of the things that I see with a lot of top shelf athletes, and I've talked about this a few times now, where you see that they go through their career, they retire and then because they're no longer on a path, they're no longer chasing excellence, they're not no longer recognized as they were when they were younger, maybe they've just retired and put their feet up and they take naps every day or play a lot more golf. And their wives are like, what are you doing? Right? Like what are you doing with your life? Why are you always here? Sort of thing. And that contempt, you know, starts pushing them towards. Well, they start to realize, or maybe they get their girlfriends in the air and they say, look, you know, you can have half of his stuff and the kids too. You don't have to put up with his and start a new life sort of thing. It's like that's why you see a lot of divorces when professional athletes go and resign or they retire or they get injured and they're out of the game sort of thing.
- [17:23]
B
Yeah, tons of them. Yeah. You're seeing these athletes put all their money in their parents name.
- [17:26]
A
Now it's wise, it's smart, it's real smart.
- [17:29]
B
It's crazy.
- [17:30]
A
Yeah.
- [17:31]
B
You probably wish you did that when you got divorced, right?
- [17:33]
A
I mean, I didn't really have a problem with it because if you marry someone of about the same socioeconomic standing. You don't lose much. Like my ex wife was a lawyer. So successful entrepreneur, successful lawyer. There's no real division of assets. You just kind of like part ways and you just deal with a custody issue. So that's one way to sort of insulate yourself from losing a lot of your stuff. But at the same time, marrying somebody that's a, you know, like a woman that's a professional, you're going to get a lot of boss girl attitude out of that. And that's a different thing to manage as well too.
- [18:00]
B
Yeah. So socioeconomic status, do you generally recommend guys to date downwards when it comes to that?
- [18:06]
A
It really depends on what your target is. I mean if you want to minimize the risks of going through the divorce machine and that grinder, you're better off marrying a woman about or higher than you if you can get it. Women don't really like it that much, but of higher status because family law really just punishes the breadwinner which usually tends to be the men. Right. Because women like to marry up. So that's why you get $40,000, your hairdressers, marrying Kevin, the VP of the sales team, you know, making $300,000 a year. So she's well looked after after the divorce because family law doesn't let her return back down to the forty thousand dollar year lifestyle. He's got to maintain her where she was at. It's funny because family law enforces his obligations on her post, post divorce, but it never enforces her obligations on him post divorce. She doesn't have to love him, she doesn't have to care for him, she doesn't have to cook for him, she doesn't have to have sex with him, but she still gets his money. So you know the question of why is it or is it just about money? Well, if it's not just about money, then why is it then when women go to family courts, all they want is the money. They don't want his love, they don't want his attention. Facts, right. They don't want him to take her on vacation, so she just wants his money.
- [19:14]
B
They want money and unfortunately a lot of them use the kids as leverage. I've seen too.
- [19:19]
A
Kids are a real big, yeah, huge, huge leverage point. That's why women tend to go for custody because when they're the primary caregivers, it allows them to manipulate the movement of finances in their favor a lot better. And it, it sucks for guys because I mean the whole point of getting married is Name your sons, you know, pass on your DNA, you know, your lineage and raise them sort of thing. But family loss separates men from that. So it's like you're no longer the head of the household in the west anymore. It's now the state, the government, and women are now the head of the household. They make all the decisions. And you're kind of just, you know, you're like this law, going downstream in the rapids, kind of going where you have to go.
- [19:57]
B
I just found out recently that more women own real estate than men now in America.
- [20:01]
A
Yeah. But they don't tell you most of that comes from divorce, though.
- [20:04]
B
Well, now that we're talking about this, it got me thinking about how that is. And, yeah, it has to be divorced. Right.
- [20:09]
A
That's the sad that they leave out. That's the quiet part that they don't tell you. I mean, even when you look at list of the world's richest women, the vast majority of them got there from either inheritance from their father or from divorce, Right?
- [20:21]
B
Yep. I think the top five are from divorce. Yeah. Crazy. Like Bezos. Bezos's wife is one of the richest women in the world, I believe.
- [20:28]
A
Yeah. Yep.
- [20:31]
B
And the child support stuff is crazy. I mean, I. I really wonder what percentage of that gets used appropriately, because some of these numbers I see are just insane to me.
- [20:38]
A
Yeah, I mean, the more you make, the more she's going to get from you in child support. That's why if you're, you know, Dr. Dre or an athlete or one of these guys, that that lot of monthly income, it's not shocking to see child support payments in excess of $150,000 a month. The children don't need $150,000 a month to live. In most cases, $1,000 is more than adequate if she's got the house looked after and, you know, food in the fridge, and she's got probably a job or something like that. But child support's not about the needs of the children. Child support's about really enriching the mother. And until they fix broken family law, you know, the corrupt family law system, it's always going to be that way. Right.
- [21:18]
B
Do you think your partner should know how much money you're making?
- [21:21]
A
Well, when you get married, I mean, here in Canada, you know, if you get married, there's a form that you have to declare to your spouse before you get married, when you get the prenup. I think it's called a 13 one or something like that. But you're supposed to declare all of your assets and your liabilities prior to the nuptials. Okay, so that's kind of part and parcel. Before you get into it. I've heard stories of guys, you know, hiding things. They've converted things to, you know, precious metals or cryptocurrency, and they don't really mention it. And that's one thing that you can do. But I mean, if she wants to take you to family court and get a forensic auditor. I know people that specialize in finding money through the, through the divorce process. They either represent men trying to help them hide their assets, or they'll represent women making sure they get as much as they can out of it. Like they'll play either side.
- [22:09]
B
Wow. Wow. I did not know that. How effective are prenups from what you've seen over the years?
- [22:14]
A
Well, here's one of the things that pisses me off. Like, you see a lot of these, you know, divorce liars, lawyers do in the podcast circuit, and they're like, oh yeah, prenups are totally fine. Just get one. And, you know, they work vast majority of the time. What they're not telling you is as more time passes on, the less relevant the prenup is. So, you know, three years in, it should be pretty rock solid. But if you're getting divorced like 12 years later and she's been a stay at home mom that entire time, and you got three kids and she hasn't gone to work, she's just going to argue that, you know, her skill. Sorry. That her skills are irrelevant and that she needs his money and that without it, you know, the children will suffer, blah, blah, blah, and then they'll generally throw the prenup out. It's not really even worth toilet paper at that point.
- [22:55]
B
Yeah, that's what I've heard too. And I'm pretty sure Bezos had one and it didn't work or something like that.
- [23:00]
A
Yeah. Interestingly, his lawyers announced during his marriage to Sanchez that his prenup is watertight, so. Oh, yeah, we'll see what happens with that. I mean, there's already videos out there of Sanchez and Bezos, and you can see the contempt in either one of their face from time to time when they're posing for photographs and videos. So it's starting to build. Like I'm noticing it. I would give that another three to five years. I would say, oh, God, when you're
- [23:25]
B
that rich, I mean, I, I, I don't see the risk to reward personally. Like, yeah, you know what I mean?
- [23:30]
A
Like, I had somebody ask Me, like, you know, why did he marry such a, like an older woman? I don't know, she was like 56, 57. I mean, granted, she looks kind of good for her age, if you like plastic surgery to that extent. Like, why didn't he marry a 25 year old? Why didn't he go the route of, you know, like Leonardo DiCaprio? And I think it's because, you know, he's running a public company and the optics of, of him getting with like a 23 year old would be real bad for his customer base. I'm sure a lot of his customers are women, you know, buying stuff off the website.
- [23:59]
B
Yeah.
- [23:59]
A
And he, I mean, I'm guessing he probably got some advice or counsel along the lines of, look, if you're going to get married or you're going to date publicly and you're going to hold it out to the public, you probably want like an age appropriate marriage because you're going to piss off a lot of the customers. And our stock prices, you know, serious issue. I mean, we saw what happened to Elon Musk when he started doing the Doge thing. Hey, everybody lost their mind and they started protesting and burning Tesla cars and vandalizing them. So the public is.
- [24:25]
B
Yeah, yeah, I could see that, man. I mean, I love Gary Vee. He was a big inspiration growing up. But when he got divorced and then started dating that girl in her 20s, I was reading his comments and he was getting a lot of hate for that.
- [24:36]
A
Oh, yeah? Yeah. And he's gone super quiet. You didn't see him so much anymore now.
- [24:40]
B
Not as much. Yeah, man. Because he kind of branded himself as that, you know, work hard and family type of guy. And then, you know, that happened. But who knows? I did want to ask one more thing about the doc. So like Myron and Justin, they're in these relationships where it's open on their end, closed on the woman's end. What do you think about that model?
- [24:59]
A
I mean, that can work, but I think where they went wrong, and Myron probably did this worse than Justin, but you know, I said earlier, you can do anything to a woman except for bore her. The thing I forgot to mention is you also can't embarrass her. And the last thing she wants. Now, she might be okay with the arrangement. She might nod off to and say, fine, just, you know, okay, whatever. But as soon as you start broadcasting it and introducing it to the world and making her look bad and, you know, hold it out there like, you know, I'm this big Shot sort of guy that can do whatever I want when I feel like it. Well, you saw, like, Angie's facial reaction. And my advice to guys always is, look, you know, if you're not two public figures and she's kind of behind the scenes and she's her girl, I think that you should do a better job of protecting her, keeping her behind the scenes, keeping her off the radar. The public doesn't need to know about her. You're then giving the public an attack vector. That's why you see guys like the Tate brothers. You never see them showing their girlfriends or wives to anybody. And they've got lots of them and lots of children, you know, between them, all because they know that it's an attack vector. So, I mean, if you're going to do that, you know, at least be respectful, discreet, safe and responsible. You don't want to rubber face in it, because as soon as that happens, you're pretty much done.
- [26:14]
B
That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I could see that for sure. Yeah. Tate has. Andrew Tate. I know, has over 10 kids, same with Elon. But you'll never see them on social media.
- [26:22]
A
No, no. They never parade around beautiful women anymore. You never see it.
- [26:27]
B
Yeah. Did you just debate Andrew Wilson?
- [26:31]
A
I mean, you can call it a debate. I'm not a debater. I mean, you know, he likes to call it a debate. I was. I was there more for the conversation. I still think he was wrong about his entire angle, but that's the way he likes to present things. I mean, at the end of the day, like, I like the guy, but it's like, dude, like, you married a single mom with three kids in tow from two different daddies, and you're telling guys to go out there and get married and that. You know, if you get, like, a Christian Orthodox type of marriage, then, you know, the divorce rate goes down substantially, blah, blah, blah. But at the end of the day, it's like the juice still isn't worth the squeeze. I mean, if you really want to have kids, I offered a reasonable remedy to that. You know, you can still have children and not live in a way that looks like marriage to the government and not expose yourself to the unnecessary very risk. But he's very, like, adamant about his way or the highway, and he has kind of, like a tough approach to it. You know, there's no hard feelings from my end, but I think a lot of it just kind of went sideways and really didn't work.
- [27:22]
B
I gotta watch that one. I saw it on YouTube. It got a Lot of views, but I need to check it out. What's the Christian Orthodox approach to marriage? Is a government involved in that approach?
- [27:29]
A
No, I mean, his angle was if, you know, if it's a Christian Orthodox marriage, then the divorce rates, like 10 or something like that. Well, he came up with numbers, anywhere from 10 to 24, depending on where you're getting the stats from. Which is less than the 50% divorce rate. Granted, but still, I mean, if you go from a 5 in 10 chance of getting screwed in family court to a 1 in 10 chance, it's still an unreasonable risk exposure level, in my opinion. And in addition to that, like, you're also not guaranteed that you're able to manage that relationship over the long haul. I mean, you know, he likes to brag about the idea of the Christian Orthodox angle, but what did that get him? It got him a chubby single mom with three kids in tow from two different dads. And I'm sure Rachel's a nice lady. She seems cool, but still, that's not what most guys out there are chasing when they think of marriage and a woman, right?
- [28:17]
B
Yeah, 100%. So are you completely closed off at this point to marriage?
- [28:22]
A
I don't see any benefit to it. I mean, like, tell me what the advantages are of getting married. Like, tell me what advantages I get from getting marriage, you know, married at this point. I just don't see it.
- [28:33]
B
Yeah, because I guess with your approach, you can still have kids, which is what most guys want, without being married, right?
- [28:37]
A
Yeah. I mean, like, you can love a woman and not live in a way that looks like marriage. You can love a woman and have children and not live in a way that looks like marriage. Most women don't like it because the marriage component gives them access to half of my pot of gold. But tough. I mean, you know, that's just the way that I roll. If you don't like it, I'll just, you know, I'll just move on the next gal sort of thing.
- [28:57]
B
So do you have some sort of agreement, say you have a kid with someone you're not married to. How would that work if they want to keep the kid? Like, is there some sort of contract
- [29:04]
A
you sign that's going to depend on where you live. And there's certain things that you can do to reduce, you know, the risk. So your audience is pros, is mostly going to be American. And I think at the time of this recording, the National Parenting Organization website publishes a report card every year and it tells you what states have favorable Laws for fathers that when I say
- [29:27]
B
favorable, that's good to know.
- [29:28]
A
Not hostile towards fathers. So, like, at this time, Florida, Kentucky, you know, for example, have like an A rating. So you're kind of awarded default 5050. You don't have to fight for custody in those states. So you would be wise, if you wanted to have kids, to. To move to those states. And that's a step that a lot of guys aren't really, you know, prepared to make. I mean, you know, you might have something going on in Detroit, Michigan, or, you know, whatever in, you know, Wisconsin. You may not want to move to another state, but that is a wiser choice than just being like, oh, you know, I'll roll the dice and just hope for the best sort of thing, which is the approach that most guys use at this time.
- [30:04]
B
Yeah, that is great to know. I did not know that. I'd imagine Cali and all the liberal
- [30:08]
A
states are the worst, right? Actually, California is not one of the worst. It's gone up and down over the years. The problem with that, with that report card, though, is that the legislation changes over time. And I remember I had the. The chairman for the organization on a podcast like, four or five years ago, and he's sort of breaking it down. And I have, you know, the screenshots from it at that time, and I compared it to the modern ones, and California at that time was good. California today is not good. So you could move to a state, you could have children, and then, you know, a few years down the road, you part ways or untie the knot, and the legislation's changed and it's more hostile towards you because they've passed new bills. So it's. It's tough to stay on top of it, really. I think at the end of the day, the bottom line is, you know, if. If you're a man of some means and you've arrived at or near the top shelf, you can put yourself in a position. You know, you can use Justin Waller as a public example because he talked about it in the documentary. I mean, you know, he's got his gal up, I think, in Louisiana. He's got a few kids with her, another one on the way. He probably pays for everything. He lives in Miami, you know, for the most part. He'll go back and visit the family. He doesn't really live with them. He's not married. He's not living in a way that looks like marriage to the government, I would assume, you know, if he's structured it correctly, like that would be an example of maybe one way to do it.
- [31:19]
B
How do you see the dating market evolving over the next few years? Because the only fans money is drying up. There's still a lot of simps, but obviously social media is a huge factor in all this. But what do you see personally coming in the next few years?
- [31:29]
A
Yeah, simps are never going to go away. I think they're. I think you're going to get more weaker, softer, more agreeable males as time goes on. Like everything in society and culture is, is breeding more beta males. So I think for women, it's going to be harder from that perspective to get guys on the top shelf. And I mean, right now they're more or less sharing the guys on the top shelf. Women on the sexual marketplace, they're not great. I mean, you know, for the most part, the older they get and the more time they spend out there sleeping around, the lower the value. You know, they become, you know, the end state of monogamy, which is what we're supposed to be observing as a culture, is going to end up being polygyny because of women's hypergamous nature. Right. They all want the best they can get, which functionally forces them to share most of the guys on the top shelf, like the top 5% of guys out there. So, I mean, that's what we're operating on right now. It's kind of like declared monogamy, but clandestine adultery. And even though we blanket it with like, you know, oh, this is cheating and this is so bad and all this, it's just, it's going on anyway. Right. And it's, and it's just going to continue in that fashion because, you know, women want what women want and men want what men want. Men want beauty, purity and their sexuality, and women want successful, competent men with renown for themselves. Right?
- [32:47]
B
Right. Yeah, A lot. I know a red pill argument is men view sex just physically. Right. You said you believe men are romantic earlier, so where do you lie on that argument?
- [32:56]
A
Yeah, I mean, most guys are, are the, are the romantics. But I mean, to the notion of like, you know, sex can just be sex for men. It can. And you know, lots of men that are on the top shelf that have women in their lives and even have children with these women, if it's multiple women or not, it doesn't matter, but they're the kind of guys that can go out to a conference, go away for a weekend, you know, have some fun, have some exercise, whatever you want to call it, and they just forget about it. They don't form an attachment. I think with women, it's. It's quite a bit different. Right. They, you know, they tend to form an attachment to a guy once they start getting intimate with him. You know, that's why when a guy cheats, like, the relationship's really not over, but when a woman cheats, it's done. See, because when a guy cheats, the first thing that she asks is what? You know, well, did you love her? When a woman cheats, the first thing he's going to ask is, well, did you bang her? Him? Right. Like, you know, what did you do? How many times did you do it? Sort of thing. Like, that's what he's interested in because his concern revolves around paternity, you know, because we never have assurances, men, whether or not that child is ours, that's. That's in her. But for women, their main concern is resources provisioning his attention. Right. So that's why they ask, you know, did you love her?
- [34:04]
B
Yeah. Have you ever debated a feminist?
- [34:07]
A
You know, you might as well talk to a wall, you know, is my opinion. I don't. I don't really like the notion of, you know, like the structured debates that Andrew Wilson does. I get why he does it because that's like, that's his wheelhouse and he's very good at it.
- [34:21]
B
Yeah.
- [34:21]
A
But I think it loses a lot of nuance and it loses a lot of, you know, creative thinking. When you kind of like, narrow it down to these structured sort of models, people don't really want to, like, hear your opinion. They want to hear their opinion coming out of your mouth. And that's all these debates, you know, keep showing me, is when you see them sitting down, it's like Andrew Wilson versus the feminist. You know, how it's going to turn out. He's going to try to make her look like an idiot. She's going to say some things that she steps on, some people are going to say that she wants. And it just goes back and forth that way and nothing's really accomplished. Right.
- [34:50]
B
I agree. I've noticed as a moderator of these debates, I've done about 10 or 15. But yeah, the person who's right doesn't always necessarily win as well. Some people are just so good at the formats and they control the conversation.
- [35:02]
A
Yeah. Like a great example, because, I mean, you did the one with Wilson and coach Greg Adams, and I watched that one.
- [35:07]
B
Yeah.
- [35:09]
A
And Greg Adams, you know, in my opinion, had a far better position than Wilson did, you know, But Wilson walks around like, he always wins all the time.
- [35:18]
B
Well, objectively, Wilson won that debate, even though I agree Greg had coach Greg Adams, statistically had. Had the better position. Right. But Andrew just controlled that conversation. He got him to react emotionally, and it made him look like he appeared the victor.
- [35:32]
A
Yeah. And that's what he's good at. You know, in that sort of structure, you put Andrew Wilson ring, I don't think he's going to fare very well.
- [35:41]
B
I feel that, man. I gotta watch your debate with him, man, because he's one of the top debaters in the space. So if you held your own, that's impressive.
- [35:46]
A
No, I didn't have a chance from the get go. Like, I knew I was getting into, like, you know, the ring with the champ on, you know, the notion of debates. You want to put on some boxing gloves, I'll show you a different game.
- [35:55]
B
You got a fighting background?
- [35:56]
A
I've done some fights, yeah.
- [35:59]
B
Do you think every man should know how to defend themselves?
- [36:01]
A
100, dude. Again, one of the chapters in my books is Learn Learn combat sports. Like, that's one of the things that you should see in these manosphere documentaries, you know, where it talks about masculinity and men and, you know, them sort of doing better in life. I think every guy should be encouraged to get into some kind of combat sport. It's great exercise. It's an incredible skill to learn. Women love men that have the capability for violence. Right. There's really no downside to it.
- [36:27]
B
Yeah, I agree. Stop simping out here, guys. Yeah, simping and being nice doesn't work. I used to be a nice guy and never got any girls back in the day, you know?
- [36:36]
A
Yeah, women.
- [36:38]
B
I don't know what it is. Just. Yeah, they just don't like it. Like, you, like, if you're thinking logically, you think they would appreciate it, but they just don't like it.
- [36:45]
A
Well, they say they like nice guys. They say they want to crawl, you know, shoulder to cry. And they say that they want you to be vulnerable, and then they'll go off and Mr. Exciting. So it's like, watch what women do. Don't listen to what they say.
- [36:56]
B
Yeah, being vulnerable. Do you mean, like expressing emotions to them?
- [37:00]
A
Sure, yeah. You know, tell me about your day. You know, what was so hard at work. And it's like. Like they'll say that stuff to guys and they'll encourage us to, like, show up and throw up, and guys will be like, yeah, you know, HR was really mean to me. My boss gave me a hard time about this. And it's like in the back of her mind, she doesn't even realize it, that she just encouraged him to throw up all of his insecurities, all of his failures and all the things he couldn't handle. And that puts a woman off. Like I often say, women don't care about men's struggles. They hang out at the finish line and they fuck the winners. So when you understand that concept, you never want to go around as a guy exposing your vulnerabilities to women. You never want to go around complaining about the difficulties in your life, life to women. You need to have your bros for stuff like that. You need to have a board of advisors, men around you that, that you can run ideas up the flag pole and get some help with them if that's what you need. But you don't complain to women about your life.
- [37:48]
B
Bars. Bars. What about dating apps? You recommend those for men?
- [37:51]
A
They work if you're on the top shelf. If you're an average guy, like if you're a 7 out of 10 or lower, it's not going to work for
- [37:57]
B
you for, for looks or overall.
- [38:00]
A
7 out of 10 overall. You know, like if you're, if you're on the sexual marketplace sitting at around a seven and you know, keep in mind the vast majority of, of what attracts women on the dating apps that'll get the right swipe starts with looks. The rest of it is like all the other stuff that sort of comes after that, but like the optics of attraction. If you're not a good looking guy on a dating app, you're not going to get matches, you're going to get frustrated.
- [38:21]
B
Yeah.
- [38:21]
A
And fast too.
- [38:22]
B
Yeah. And I don't, I don't know if this is true, but apparently men outnumber women 10 to 1 on most dating apps.
- [38:27]
A
There's way more dudes on dating apps than women. I don't know what the numbers are, but you're right. I think that's it's significantly more, I don't know if as much as 10 to 1, but it's significant. Significantly more.
- [38:35]
B
It is wild. I had a guest on in la. She showed me her. Have you heard of Raya Raya?
- [38:41]
A
Oh, is that the one for celebrities?
- [38:43]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. She showed me her profile. I was like scrolling through her messages and it was never ending. I mean they just get so many messages crazy with their Instagram.
- [38:51]
A
Yeah, even a 5 out of 10 on, on like a Hinge or a Bumble will get like 100 matches a day easily. Guys are lucky to get, you know, 10 or 20 over the course of a week. If they're do. If they get that, then they're generally doing pretty well.
- [39:05]
B
Yeah. Do you think guys should be making the first move or should they just.
- [39:08]
A
Yeah, guys are always forever to make the first move. I mean, we're always going to be expected to be the chivalrous ones, to be the first, you know, to make the first move, to ask them out, to, you know, pay for the meal when we go out, stuff like that. That's never really going to change. No. No amount of. We're all equal. And feminists, you know, we're all the same. Women hate that, Right. They say they like it, you know, but when it comes to, you know, the bill shows up at the table, you're the guy that has to reach out and say, please don't embarrass me, you know, let me take care of this sort of thing. And that's just how it is, right?
- [39:36]
B
Yeah. What point do you like? You pay for meals, but what about gifts? Do you spoil women?
- [39:42]
A
I mean, no. You present a woman with a gift when she deserves it. I think a lot of guys go above and beyond to try to impress women unnecessarily that don't deserve the attention or the gift. I get sick you help me out with something. In my family, my mom needed something. You step up to the plate voluntarily, do it with enthusiasm, with a smile on your face, and you're helpful. Yeah. Then you're, you know, then you're due to do a thank you gift, but just because it's Valentine's Day, forget that nonsense. No, it's absolutely, it's. It's unnecessary and it's nonsense. It's just a humiliation ritual for men. It's only weak, plugged in men that, that do like the flowers on the dates and the chocolates and the Valentine's Day big flower, stuff like that. It's like women will go and take photographs of all that, you know, around Valentine's Day and put it all over social media. Look at the balloons, look at the flowers I got. This is so romantic. And this is the dork that she's making fun of with her friends. And the guy that gives her nothing on Valentine's Day is a guy that she gives all of her attention and enthusiastically gives her body very generously to him.
- [40:49]
B
Did you ever hear this Skittles guy skills guy?
- [40:52]
A
No. Yeah, it's an old blog post, I think from Chateau Hartis. He was like a pickup artist sort of dude. And you know, there was an entry that was taken from a woman's discussion board, and it was women basically complaining about guys that they couldn't lock down. And, like, the story kind of went back and forth where it's like, you know, he never called me. He didn't ask me how my day was. You know, we just come over and just be intimate. And all I ever got from this guy was a bag of Skittles. And then the other girl goes, wait, was his name whatever? And it's the same guy. So they, you know, they. They start to realize that it's like they're all kind of attracted the same kind of, like, type of avatar character. And it's. It's better for guys to err more on the side of being more of an asshole than it is being a nice guy, because nice guys do get punished.
- [41:39]
B
You know, there's Facebook groups that do that in every city.
- [41:41]
A
Oh, yeah, 100%.
- [41:43]
B
Yeah. I forget what they're called, but there's definitely one in Toronto where the girl will upload a photo of the guy, and they're like, has anyone dated this guy?
- [41:49]
A
Yeah. I think it's called, are we dating the same guy? Yeah. So if you end up being a pair on that site, you've kind of reached, you know, peak player boys.
- [41:57]
B
Have you been posted on one of those before?
- [41:59]
A
No.
- [42:01]
B
Moving smart. Yeah, Moving smart. All right, what else we got? Is there anyone you want to. You don't call yourself a debater, but is there anyone you have a. Want to have a conversation with next about dating dynamics?
- [42:14]
A
Not really. I mean, I think I've learned just about. I mean, there's nothing really new that I've come across in the last year. I think, think the content creator that I would say that I like the most lately is probably Orion Taraban. You know, we've become pretty good friends. He's been at my conference the last couple years as a speaker. You know, we chop it up offline, you know, from time to time, so we're. So we're in contact. And I think his angle and his strategy sort of applies real well with the angles that I use. Like, he's more of the academic sort of observer, and he's a very good presenter because he was an actor before. And I think the. I mean, his book, the Value of Others, the second half of it, is fantastic. Like, once you can get past all the academic buildup halfway through the book and on, it's amazing material. And I think it links up synergistically well with A lot of the content that I make and especially my other two books too.
- [43:08]
B
Okay, I'll check that one out. What's different from his approach versus yours, or is it pretty similar?
- [43:13]
A
It's similar. I'm kind of more to the point and I also kind of get in your face more on a few of the other topics. He's a little bit more professional. You know, he's got the degree and the designation, so he maintains that. But yeah, it's, it's, it's slightly different approaches. It's like taking, you know, something like a nice car and parking it on the grass and like, he'll take a shot from like the rear three quarter angle and I'll get a drone shot from the front three quarter angle sort of thing. It's the same idea, it's just you're looking at it from different angles.
- [43:41]
B
Okay, what's. What's next for you? You working on another book?
- [43:43]
A
No, I just put it up. Put out a new book back in November. Top shelf, man. It's on Amazon. It's doing real well. I got the audio files coming out soon for Audible, so people are waiting for that. That I'm really just working on, you know, creating content, doing, Doing some podcasts and, you know, having some good conversations with good people, I think.
- [44:00]
B
Nice, man. I'll check that book out when it's on Audible. I love Audible.
- [44:03]
A
Yeah, right up my.
- [44:04]
B
You got a date for that?
- [44:05]
A
You'll get right into it.
- [44:07]
B
Cool. Anything else you want to close off with here, man?
- [44:10]
A
Not really. I mean, if you want to follow me a little closer, you can go to my website just at Rich Cooper Ca and you'll find links to, you know, everything there, social, my YouTube channels, podcast, books, everything.
- [44:21]
B
Perfect. We'll link it below. Thanks for coming on, man. And see you in Vegas next time.
- [44:24]
A
Thanks, Sean. We'll see you soon, man.
- [44:26]
B
Thanks for watching all the way to the end, guys. Means a lot. Please click here if you want to watch the next episode and please subscribe to the show. It helps us get more guests and helps grow the brand.