Digital Social Hour – Episode #735: "Mormon Wealth vs. Members: The $1 Trillion Dilemma" Featuring John Dehlin
Release Date: September 18, 2024
In this compelling episode of Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly engages in a deep and revealing conversation with John Dehlin, a prominent figure from Utah known for his critical stance on the Mormon Church. The discussion navigates the complex interplay between the church's amassed wealth and its impact on its members, shedding light on financial misconduct, doctrinal issues, and the profound personal and societal consequences of such a powerful religious institution.
1. The Mormon Church's Vast Wealth and Land Holdings
John Dehlin (A) initiates the discussion by highlighting the extensive land ownership of the Mormon Church across the United States. He reveals that the church is either the first or second largest landowner in nearly every state, amassing between 2% to 4% of public land in states like Florida.
"The Mormon Church is estimated to be worth $250 billion right now, and within 30 years, a trillion dollars. It'll be a trillion-dollar church." [02:14]
Sean Kelly (B) expresses astonishment at the scale of the church's assets, prompting a deeper exploration into how such wealth was accrued.
2. Financial Practices and Legal Scrutiny
A delves into the church's financial operations, explaining the practice of tithing where members are expected to donate 10% of their income. He criticizes the ambiguity between gross and net income, leading to substantial revenue generation for the church.
"The church set up this investment arm called Ensign Peak... just Ensign Peak alone... $150 billion just in cash and stock in real estates." [03:06]
He further exposes legal issues, mentioning an SEC fine of $6 million for financial fraud and an ongoing IRS investigation into the church's practices, including the use of shell companies to obscure financial transparency.
"And that's fraud." [04:42]
3. Personal Journey: From Devotion to Dissent
John Dehlin shares his personal narrative of growing up as a devout Mormon, serving a mission, and eventually questioning the church's doctrines around 2001. This internal conflict led him to leave his career at Microsoft and launch his podcast in 2005 to provide "informed consent" to fellow Mormons.
"It all just started to unravel because I'd been... ready to answer a bunch of questions I had had growing up." [08:14]
His commitment to transparency and advocating for issues like same-sex marriage and racial equality eventually led to his excommunication in 2015 when the church demanded he cease his activism.
"The church called me in and said...stop advocating...or we're going to excommunicate you. And I politely declined." [13:00]
4. Doctrinal Issues: Racism, Sexism, and Homophobia
A systematically critiques the church's longstanding doctrines that perpetuate racism, sexism, and homophobia. He discusses the historical ban on black men holding the priesthood, a policy only lifted in 1978, and the persistent racial narratives embedded in the Book of Mormon.
"From the very earliest years of the church, Brigham Young started teaching that black people were cursed with the curse of Cain." [15:28]
He also addresses the church's rigid stance on LGBTQ+ issues, highlighting the harmful practices of conversion therapy and the severe mental health repercussions for LGBTQ+ members.
"The church has taught since the 40s and 50s that homosexuality... was an abomination." [18:46]
5. Sexual Abuse Scandals and Institutional Cover-Up
One of the most harrowing segments of the conversation revolves around the pervasive sexual abuse within the church and its systematic cover-up. A reveals alarming statistics, estimating up to 30,000 instances of child abuse, comparable to the Catholic Church's scandals.
"The Mormon Church had 20% of the total U.S. registrations of Boy Scouts... that's 18, 20,000 abuse cases within the Mormon Church right there." [25:52]
He criticizes the church's response mechanisms, where victims are often directed to handle abuse internally rather than reporting it to authorities, perpetuating a culture of silence and protection of abusers over victims.
"The church has been harboring and protecting abusers for decades." [27:48]
6. Growth Strategy and Demographics
Despite declining membership in Western countries and internal issues, the Mormon Church has strategically expanded in Africa, where growth rates offset losses elsewhere. A posits that this expansion is driven more by financial strategy than genuine outreach.
"The church renounced its priesthood ban and it's trying to change its image... now going gangbusters in Africa." [44:09]
He also challenges the authenticity of the church's membership numbers, suggesting that a significant portion of the reported 17 million members are inactive or do not self-identify as Mormon.
"The church claims 17 million members, but estimates are only about 4 to 5 million actually self-identify as Mormon." [44:39]
7. Recent Branding and Public Relations Efforts
A discusses the church's recent attempts to rebrand itself, notably abandoning the "Mormon" label to distance from negative connotations associated with its doctrines and past scandals.
"The prophet, Russell M. Nelson, got up and said... we're going to kill [the Mormon brand]." [41:04]
This move aims to mitigate the dominance of ex-Mormon narratives online, which have tarnished the church's public image.
8. Mental Health Impacts on Members
A significant portion of the discussion centers on the severe mental health crisis within the church community, exacerbated by doctrines that instill guilt and shame. A emphasizes the high rates of depression, prescription drug abuse, and suicide among members, particularly among LGBTQ+ youth.
"There’s a real mental health crisis in the United States right now... it's a real problem." [47:14]
He advocates for open conversations about these issues as a pathway to addressing the underlying pain inflicted by the church's teachings.
9. The Challenge of Secular Community Building
Concluding the episode, A reflects on the broader societal shift towards secularization and the challenges in fostering community without the unifying (and controlling) structures of religion. He underscores the essential human need for belonging and the difficulties in replicating the supportive aspects of religious communities in a secular context.
"We need to figure out a community aspect without religion involved. Because once you bring that in, it gets weaponized." [36:41]
10. Conclusion: A Dual-Edged Legacy
The episode paints a nuanced picture of the Mormon Church—a powerful institution that offers community, purpose, and moral guidance to many, yet simultaneously harbors significant systemic issues related to wealth accumulation, doctrinal discrimination, and protective behaviors towards abusers. John Dehlin's insights serve as a crucial examination of how immense institutional power can both support and suppress its members, highlighting the need for transparency, accountability, and compassionate reformation.
"Because there’s so much good and then there’s so much toxicity. And that’s why it’s so successful." [34:37]
This episode of Digital Social Hour provides an in-depth exploration of the Mormon Church's financial empire and its profound social and personal ramifications on its members. John Dehlin's candid revelations and critical analysis offer listeners a sobering look into the complexities of one of America's wealthiest religious institutions.