Naima & Zina: AI Replacing Jobs, Wealth Collapse & DEI Wipeout. America Is Not Ready | DSH #1663

Summary

Digital Social Hour – Episode Summary

Podcast: Digital Social Hour
Host: Sean Kelly
Guests: Naima (Symposia Host), Zena
Episode Title: Naima & Zina: AI Replacing Jobs, Wealth Collapse & DEI Wipeout. America Is Not Ready | DSH #1663
Date: December 11, 2025

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Overview:

In this episode, Sean Kelly welcomes returning guest Naima and first-time guest Zena for an energetic and wide-ranging discussion centered around the volatility of America’s sociopolitical climate. Topics include the fracturing of the right wing, the dangers and promises of artificial intelligence in the workforce, wealth inequality, DEI rollbacks, challenges of internet debate culture, and personal experiences as young commentators. The conversation is frank, at times humorous, and always thought-provoking, reflecting the podcast’s trademark of raw, unfiltered dialogue.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Debate Culture, Online Clips, and Fatigue

Timestamps: 00:40–05:32

• Both guests share experiences from high-profile debate formats like Jubilee and in-person debates across the country (e.g., Tennessee with Michael Knowles).
• The debate scene is described as "exhausting," "argumentative" rather than collaborative, and ripe for "clip farming" (viral short clips rather than substance).
  • Naima: “It gets to be somewhat fatiguing, like back to back to back to back. And it's also not like, the most sustainable way to have an online presence…” (03:27)
• Discussion about the emotional toll of arguing with controversial figures (notably Andrew Wilson), often for extended hours with little to no civility off-camera.

2. On- and Off-Camera Personas

Timestamps: 05:34–08:08

• The guests and host compare various public figures’ on-set behavior versus private interactions.
  • Ben Shapiro cited as professional and friendly off-camera.
  • Andrew Wilson characterized as consistently combative.
• Candor about the performative aspects of internet personalities.

3. Navigating Politics and Friendships

Timestamps: 08:08–10:39

• The hosts and guests reflect on their own political orientations (largely center-left) and the challenge of having friends with opposing, particularly far-right, views.
  • Zena: “I unfortunately, for years have studied why all of that is incorrect factually… If I explain this to you and we have a conversation and I'm like… how can you be there?” (08:22)

4. Trump, Epstein Files, Infighting on the Right

Timestamps: 10:39–14:41

• Host Sean expresses disillusionment with Trump in light of recent controversies, especially regarding the Epstein files and censorship.
  • Sean: “Some questionable things lately with the FBI, with the Epstein files, with censorship. You know, my TikTok got banned.” (10:46)
• Guests discuss the consolidation of power in the GOP around Trump and the perceived ideological contradictions.
  • Naima: “He has kind of pigeonholed your entire party and kind of grabbed it by the balls…” (12:52)

5. Far-Right Online Figures & Group Dynamics

Timestamps: 14:41–18:42

• Discussion of Nick Fuentes, Charlie Kirk, and the power vacuum on the right.
  • Zena: "Nick Fuentes... has captured something really fierce in young men that I'm scared of... it's almost like a virus." (14:49)
  • Guests decline debating Fuentes, citing safety and the futility of engaging with such audiences.
  • Naima: “By debating him, you're only reinforcing his power and hold among... the members of his little group.” (18:04)

6. Candace Owens' Appeal and Contradictions

Timestamps: 18:43–22:29

• Mixed reflections on Candace Owens: her intelligence, occasional cogency, but also her selective engagement with facts and hypocrisies.
  • Zena: “I know people have been like, oh, my God, why am I agreeing with Candace Owens? Because she has that capability. It's just she's choosing when she wants to use it.” (19:45)
• Amused speculation on odd internet “ships” like Candace Owens and Nick Fuentes.

7. Internet Hate, Safety, and Real vs. Online Interactions

Timestamps: 23:13–24:18

• Both note they face negative comments online but not in person; even in conservative areas, interactions are largely positive.
  • Naima: “...all these people were like, oh, my God, I love you. I was like, oh, okay.” (23:38)

8. Drama in the Debate Circuit

Timestamps: 24:18–27:34

• Naima recounts a contentious experience with Tim Pool’s event staff, emphasizing issues like safety, fair pay, and misrepresentation (e.g., use of AI-altered promotional images).
• Zena discusses Southern hospitality during Tennessee debates, despite charged topics.

9. Debates on Gender Roles and Feminism

Timestamps: 28:21–29:59

• Reflections on participating in debates with major figures like Candace Owens and Jordan Peterson.
  • Candace’s hypocrisy noted: “Her main point was just like women shouldn't be at work. I say while at work.” (28:38)
• Importance of equitable domestic responsibility discussed.

10. Socialism, Labor Value, and Wealth Inequality

Timestamps: 32:19–34:39

• Zena shares her background in studying dense political theory; appreciation for socialism’s focus on public ownership of essential services.
  • Naima: “I fundamentally do not believe that the healthcare system should be privately run, which is why I really support socialism.” (33:36)
• Wealth’s roots in human labor are central to Zena's worldview.

11. Minimum Wage & The "AI Replaces Jobs" Dilemma

Timestamps: 34:39–37:36

• Both guests advocate for a higher, cost-of-living-adjusted minimum wage.
  • Shock at low minimums (e.g., $5.50/hr in Georgia & Wyoming).
• Looming threat: as AI advances, more low-wage jobs are replaced.
  • Zena: “The thing with AI that's so scary is that it's so looming and we don't know so much yet.” (35:17)

12. AI, Ethics, and the Future of Work

Timestamps: 36:43–43:24

• Robust internal debate between Naima and Zena about the ethical implications and potential of AI.
  • Role of programmers, data bias, and dangers like “fake scarcity” of jobs and societal “alignment” of AI.
  • Naima: “My fear is not AI itself. My fear is the programmers, really... AI... is basing its understanding of the world and its knowledge and functionality on data sets that are created by humans.” (39:08)

13. AI-Driven Harms and the Black Box Problem

Timestamps: 43:24–44:30

• Examples of AI misuse—Meta’s AI chatbots used for predatory purposes, anti-semitic output from Elon Musk’s Grok.
  • Naima: “...adults were making AI chatbot Personas that were supposed to be children. And engaging in sexual conversations with AI bots that were supposed to be presenting as an underage AI bot.” (42:26)

14. What Threatens America Most?

Timestamps: 44:30–46:51

• Zena points to algorithms and wealth inequality as major threats, over foreign actors like China.
  • Zena: “...I think that, like, we are being. Honestly, it's the damn phone.” (44:53)
• Naima argues America’s internal decay will make it vulnerable externally: “America is destroying itself pretty well on its own right now. I don't think we need any help from China.” (45:24)

15. Lobbying and Super PACs

Timestamps: 47:27–49:22

• Discussion on outsized influence of Super PACs and need for transparency and donation caps.
  • Naima: “...data on who people are taking donations from, who politicians are taking donations from, should be like, readily available to the public.” (48:09)
• Elon Musk’s role as a disruptive “immigrant” having laid off hundreds of thousands, ironically in line with the right’s talking points about immigrants taking jobs.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Naima, on debating Nick Fuentes:
  “...by debating him, you're only reinforcing his power and hold among, you know, the members of his little group.” (18:07)
• Zena on AI in society:
  “...if we slow down and align, we can trust… and maybe we can either figure out how the black box systems work or trust what we're getting as output and then continue to scale up.” (40:35)
• Naima on Candace Owens’ selective intellect:
  “...there's something so interesting about the intelligence that she possesses, but selectively engages in and displays…” (18:52)
• Naima, critiquing Trump’s effect on the GOP:
  “He's consolidated so much power within the conservative party, and so now you've put all your eggs in this basket full of holes.” (12:52)

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Timestamps by Theme

| Topic Covered | Timestamps (MM:SS) | |-------------------------------------------|--------------------| | Debate Culture and Personal Toll | 00:40–05:32 | | On/Off Camera Personas | 05:34–08:08 | | Friendships and Political Identity | 08:08–10:39 | | Trump, GOP, and Conservative Infighting | 10:39–14:41 | | Nick Fuentes & Right-Wing Extremism | 14:41–18:42 | | Candace Owens & Media Misdirection | 18:43–22:29 | | Internet Hate and IRL Safety | 23:13–24:18 | | Event Booking Drama | 24:18–27:34 | | Feminism and Gender Role Debates | 28:21–29:59 | | Socialism, Labor, and Economics | 32:19–34:39 | | AI & The Future of Work | 34:39–43:24 | | America’s Internal Threats | 44:30–46:51 | | Lobbying & Political Money | 47:27–49:22 |

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Tone & Style

The episode maintains a conversational, candid, and occasionally comedic tone. The hosts and guests do not shy away from calling out hypocrisy or expressing frustration with the status quo, but also bring a level of optimism about individual and collective change. Their camaraderie, critical thinking, and blend of lived experience with theory make the discussion engaging and accessible to a wide audience.

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For Listeners

If you want a window into young progressive commentators’ minds—with insider takes on debate culture, the coming upheaval of AI in work, gender roles, and the messiness of American politics in 2025—this episode is a must-listen. The guests bring strong views, personal anecdotes, and a perceptive critique of both the right and the left, as well as the algorithms shaping our future.

Transcript

[Symposia Host]

So I feel like when you debate that person, win, lose, draw, no matter how the debate goes, you're still reinforcing that belief of like an in group and an out group. And if I on the out group and debating them, they can be like, aha. See, we told you people were going to attack you for these beliefs because they don't get it. And here this is happening. So in a way, I feel like by debating him, you're only reinforcing his power and hold among the members of his little group.

[Podcast Host]

So would you label him his following a cult?

[Symposia Host]

I wouldn't call it a cult. I don't think it's a cult. I mean, they don't even meet in person. I don't think you can be an online cult. I wouldn't call it a cult. I would call it a hate group. But I think that psychologically there are some parallels.

[Podcast Host]

All right guys, first episode at Spotify Studios in L. A. Let's get it. Got the ladies here today. Returning guest and new guest. What's going on today, ladies? Hey, how's everyone been feeling? You guys have been doing a lot of jubilee debates and making the roundabouts sleepy, sleepy, tired. It is early, guys.

[Symposia Host]

It's like 10am don't say it.

[Podcast Host]

Probably the earliest you guys have filmed, right?

[Symposia Host]

For no, Jubilees start at like 8:30.

[Podcast Host]

Why so early?

[Symposia Host]

Because they.

[Podcast Host]

Is it a full day thing when you. When you're on?

[Symposia Host]

It's like four to five hours. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Geez.

[Zena]

Honestly, it goes by faster than you'd think.

[Symposia Host]

It does.

[Podcast Host]

Really?

[Symposia Host]

Especially when it's a surrounded because a lot of. It's just like watching other people debate.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah. I feel that I just saw your two on two debate.

[Symposia Host]

With who? Oh, with Andrew, was it?

[Podcast Host]

No, no, it wasn't that one.

[Symposia Host]

It was. Oh no. With Parker.

[Podcast Host]

Parker and you versus my friend C.J.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And I didn't know the other kid.

[Symposia Host]

I actually did not hate C.J.

[Podcast Host]

Really?

[Symposia Host]

Yeah. No. I think in the beginning he was pissing me off. But then towards the end he started to make some points that I like had some respect for. I think the part that messed me up was in the beginning he was like, people, people who are food insecure just need to work harder.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Symposia Host]

And I was like, well, that's not very compassionate. Now it's kind of hard to work hard when you're.

[Podcast Host]

He means well. Shout out to CJ Man. He means well. What have you debated him or.

[Zena]

No, I do not know C.J.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Zena]

But I did see some of that debate.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah.

[Zena]

No, it was definitely interesting. I mean, it definitely a range of ideas.

[Symposia Host]

Towards the end, I appreciated when he was like, there are issues with the Republican healthcare plan because we can't just get rid of a premium tax credit without replacing it with a real solid plan. Which I appreciated, you know, him being able to, like, actually acknowledge that the Republicans do need to form a better, more like, thoughtful and understood plan.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. So what are you guys focusing on this year or rest of this year? Next year? I know you're starting a podcast. I don't know if that's been announced.

[Symposia Host]

Yet, but I guess this is the announcement.

[Podcast Host]

Breaking news.

[Symposia Host]

Yes, breaking news.

[Podcast Host]

Stepping away from the debate scene and going in the podcast route now.

[Zena]

I mean, from what I've. The debate scene is so interesting. Like, the side of you that you get there is just. It's all like, grunt. I don't know. I don't know. I just feel like it's raw.

[Symposia Host]

Grunt.

[Podcast Host]

It's like it's raw.

[Symposia Host]

Right.

[Zena]

It's.

[Podcast Host]

That sounded wrong.

[Symposia Host]

But, like, I mean, it's just in the sense that, like, it's a very. Like, the prep work that you do for a debate is hours and hours and hours. And then the debate itself, you have to talk to people who, under any other circumstances, you would never want to talk to.

[Podcast Host]

Right, right.

[Symposia Host]

So it gets to be somewhat fatiguing, like back to back to back to back. And it's also not like, the most sustainable, like, way to, I feel like, have an online presence because you have to travel.

[Zena]

Like, you just went, like, across the.

[Symposia Host]

Country to do a debate.

[Zena]

I went to Tennessee.

[Podcast Host]

Holy crap.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah.

[Zena]

Shout out. Shout out to my friends in Tennessee. Honestly, I debated Michael Knowles, and it's just all I can say is, like, you have to constantly. For me, it's like I was begging to speak half the time. Because, I mean, it's like you are not given, like, the platform to speak. They're like, they bring you into their own terrain and audience. Oftentimes, I mean, it depends on what kind of debate you're doing, but I just feel like it is a lot. And I think connecting with people one on one is just more efficient.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah. I think that, like, the climate of these debates, it gets to be more. It's not a debate. It's really an argument.

[Zena]

Right.

[Symposia Host]

Pretty much.

[Podcast Host]

You're just clip farming. Right.

[Symposia Host]

Kind of. And it's an argument. You know, I feel like there's not as much room for, like, polite discourse. And I might also be part of the problem because I do make fun of you on a very regular basis. But, you know, it does get exhausting when you're talking to people who you dislike and you're just arguing for five hours straight, man.

[Podcast Host]

I was watching your recent one with Andrew Wilson.

[Symposia Host]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

And that was a tough one to watch.

[Symposia Host]

That was a tough one.

[Podcast Host]

So I can't even imagine how it feels to, like, be there.

[Symposia Host]

It's exhausting. It's honestly so tiring. Not only is he so ugly and you just don't want to look at him anymore. And it's like, damn, I have to stare at this guy for five hours straight. But it's also like, he's from beginning to end when the camera is cut. He's never polite. He has never shaken my hand once. He's never said hello to me when I enter a room. Like, no. He, like. It's just such a bad vibe, to be honest with you. And it does get exhausting, like, arguing over what the word rights means for an hour straight. It's like, dude, I think next debate, I'm just gonna bring a dictionary or something.

[Podcast Host]

For real. Did you watch that one, Zaina?

[Zena]

Yes. No. I mean, Andrew is such an interesting dude. I mean, I. From what I'd seen, I was just like, this dude is just seething and angry all the time.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah.

[Zena]

Like, he's just always like, his face is. I mean, it's in a perpetual. It is just like.

[Podcast Host]

You know, they call that. What do they call that? Resting face.

[Symposia Host]

It's not even resting face.

[Zena]

I think it's like, he's actually angry.

[Symposia Host]

He looks constipated, almost. Like, he just seems.

[Zena]

God, I don't think he's rest ever. But, like, no. Yeah. Like, I had also, like, we had. We were supposed to debate. Do a debate while he was here in la. And I, you know, hit him up. I was like, hey, dude, you're here. Let's have a discussion. And he was like, okay, about what? And I was like, let's do it on feminism. You know, fuck it. Like, let's do feminism. And he was like, okay. Like, what do you. About what? And I was like, you know, do you think it's bad? Like, what. How do you feel about the movement? Do I think it's good? Sounds like a decent debate topic. And then he's just like, like. And I was just like, what do you mean? And then he just goes, how dare you, you stupid broad. You stupid bitch. And then he just starts to go on and on and on. And I'm just like, really? Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Over DMS just over DMs.

[Symposia Host]

He just keep in mind, she's 19 and he is like, how old is he?

[Zena]

50.

[Podcast Host]

He's in his 40s, I believe. I just had him on. I moderate a debate with him and this other red pill guy. We got dinner after. He's a little different off camera some. It's interesting because I've filmed with so many creators and just to see how some are on camera versus off camera.

[Zena]

Yeah.

[Symposia Host]

How are we on camera versus off camera?

[Podcast Host]

I haven't been with you guys too much off camera, to be honest. This is my first time meeting you.

[Zena]

Yeah. We kind of just met.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And we didn't really do anything off camera. But some people are totally different. Like Harry Sisson.

[Symposia Host]

Really? What's he like on camera?

[Podcast Host]

He's. I'm playing ping pong with him. I'm chilling with him. We're being guys.

[Symposia Host]

Oh, yeah. And then on camera.

[Podcast Host]

But when I see his clips, I'm like, what are you doing, dude?

[Symposia Host]

Ben. I didn't hang out with Ben Shapiro off camera, but when we did the Jubilee, Middle Ground, I felt like a similar vibe. Like, when we were cut, he was very friendly.

[Podcast Host]

Really.

[Symposia Host]

He definitely had like a debate mode.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Symposia Host]

You know, and he turned it off, like, when we weren't. Respect. Yeah. And it actually was really nice. Like, I appreciate when people, like, you know, there are some people whose views are so ridiculous that it's like, there is no off for me. Like, I still don't fuck with you. Like, but, you know, it was nice to be able to have this debate. And the debate's over and he's like, that was great, guys.

[Podcast Host]

You know, that's respectful.

[Symposia Host]

Lovely to talk to you. Like, that was it. It actually was really nice.

[Podcast Host]

Do you guys have conservative friends? People that would be considered on the far right? None at all.

[Symposia Host]

No.

[Podcast Host]

So that's a defining line.

[Symposia Host]

Well, part of it is I'm from New York and I live in Los Angeles. So it's like I would have to actively seek out these communities. And it's like, why would I do that? You know?

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Zena]

No, I mean, I feel like we're getting to a point as well where it's just like, okay, what are your beliefs that are conservative? And it's like, I unfortunately, for years have studied why all of that is incorrect factually, just, like, completely. And it's like, at that point, it's like, if I explain this to you and we have a conversation and I'm like.

I just wonder how you can be there. And I'm okay. Over here in terms of, like, just knowing what is true factually.

[Symposia Host]

Oh, wait, actually, that's not true. I do have one conservative friend, but he's coming around. I've been sending him so many reels, so many, like, infographics, that he's like, oh, I think he's gonna turn liberal just to get me to shut the fuck up. Honestly. Yeah, no, he was, like. He was one of those, like.

Raised very Christian, like, black kind of conservatives and kind of in, like, a CJ type of vibe.

[Podcast Host]

Is this Xavier Derusso?

[Symposia Host]

He's not a famous person. Yeah, he's just. He's just a guy. And. Yeah, no, but he didn't vote for Trump or anything. But he definitely has, like, some conservative viewpoints. I'd say he's more of a centrist, to be honest.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I wonder where I'll be in 28, because I would have voted Trump in 24. You know, I'm one standard. I've taken that online test. I don't know what it's called, but I'm, like, one standard deviation from the middle. I think it was that one. Yeah.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah.

[Zena]

I talk a lot about this, man. I love the Blue Compass. So you're very centrist. I mean, I was telling you earlier, and I want to explain this better. I said, you give me, like, the vibe of, like, an equalizer. Like, you have touched all the crevices of, like, this debate space on the Internet, and you kind of reflect it back. People watch you. So, I mean, that's pretty interesting that even your political views align.

[Podcast Host]

I would say I'm pretty in the middle. Yeah. I grew up pretty liberal in New Jersey, but where are you from in New Jersey? Bridgewater.

[Symposia Host]

Really?

[Zena]

Montclair.

[Podcast Host]

What? Yes. Wow.

[Symposia Host]

I didn't know you were a Jersey boy. That's crazy.

[Podcast Host]

That's nuts. Just got married out there.

[Symposia Host]

That's awesome. Congratulations.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, Jersey's a good state, man. People sleep on Jersey.

[Symposia Host]

People fucking sleep on Jersey.

[Podcast Host]

It's because of the Jersey Shore. We get a bad night.

[Symposia Host]

Actually, they did kind of ruin it for us. But the entirety of it's lovely. It's beautiful. Great public schools. Like, people really should own Jersey. Jersey's really nice.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. So, yeah, we'll see where I go, though. I just try to stay pretty center, like you said. I've had on far right, far left, done everything in between.

[Zena]

Nice.

[Podcast Host]

But I don't know. I'm slowly losing faith in Trump, if I'm being honest.

[Symposia Host]

Slowly. Slowly.

[Zena]

Slow, dude.

[Symposia Host]

I mean, he's the best yeah, just.

[Podcast Host]

Some questionable things lately with the FBI, with the Epstein files, with censorship. You know, my TikTok got banned.

[Symposia Host]

Really?

[Zena]

For speaking?

[Symposia Host]

Really?

[Podcast Host]

For moderating an Israel debate? Yeah.

[Symposia Host]

Wow.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, between Myron and Destiny, that got me banned.

[Symposia Host]

Wow. Ooh, I wanna watch that. That actually sounds like.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's a good debate. But I don't know, just a lot of things he said before getting. Seem to line up, you know.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah.

[Zena]

I mean, like in regards to the Epstein files, I feel like I'm at a point where I'm just like, okay, like it's getting crazy. And then it's like when we see like these emails that come out and like the kind of things that are being engaged in, it's just like, how can we. It feels like there's too much evidence surrounding it where it's like, yeah, how can we deny?

[Podcast Host]

You think they'll get released?

[Zena]

Do I think they're going to get released? I mean, I feel like that's a question of where our government or where our country is going as a trajectory. Like it's like really that kind of question. It's like, I think there is something there. I mean, we know his name has been in the files for how, you know, and that was kept from us for a while. So it's just like, does our country go more. Should I say the word that I'm not allowed to say? I mean, it starts with an ass. I think there is a chance for good to come, especially with the fact that Zo Ron is doing something in the direction of, you know, I would say hope and change. I mean, I just think we need to keep going and we can't let this. That be the end. I feel like we need to continue propelling that way, which is why I kind of do what I do. So it's like it's all dependent on that, in my opinion. So it's like I can't even answer. Yeah, completely.

[Symposia Host]

But I mean, if I was Trump, I wouldn't release such. It. The fuck.

[Podcast Host]

Why wouldn't you wouldn't.

[Zena]

He doesn't have to. No. Cause he brings.

[Podcast Host]

Well, he's facing a lot of pressure from. Especially the Right. He's losing a lot of supporters.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah. I mean, I would have Kash Patel type up another little like he did with the Tyler texts. I would have him just type up a little Google Dog, be like, yeah.

[Zena]

It'S going to be released. I think in some way the people are going to take it.

[Symposia Host]

I think they're going to say it's a threat. To National Security to release the files or release them. And heavily redact.

[Podcast Host]

That's what they do with jfk.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah, they heavily redact all of the juicy tidbits. But to your point about, you know, losing faith in Trump, I always thought when Trump first got elected, like, man, this is going to fuck the Republican Party so badly, because I feel like he has kind of pigeonholed your entire party and kind of grabbed it by the balls. Not to be vulgar, but essentially he's consolidated so much power within the conservative party, and so now you've put all your eggs in this basket full of holes. So if Trump doesn't come through on his promises, it's not just like Trump is a bad president. It's conservative ideals do not work because all conservatives are kind of now tied to his performance because he's taken over so much of the party. So if I was a conservative and he.

Is just so blasphemous to a lot of conservative ideology. I mean, the party of family values. But this guy is running around with a known PDF file, you know, so if I was a conservative, I would be actually really pissed at how Trump has handled his presidency, especially this term, both terms.

[Podcast Host]

There's a lot. A lot of infighting on the right right now.

[Symposia Host]

The tariffs, everything. I mean, the going back and forth on the tariffs. Like, if I was a conservative, I'd be pissed. He's making you guys look weak as a party.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah. It's rough right now for the right. I was actually watching Tim Poole this morning, and he was talking about how.

[Symposia Host]

Me and Tim Poe have beef.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, you do?

[Symposia Host]

Kind of.

[Podcast Host]

I didn't know that. Oh, wait, you were supposed to debate on his event. I saw.

[Symposia Host]

I was supposed to debate. We can talk about it. But, yeah, it was like a whole thing.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. But anyways, I saw him talking about this because he got. I don't know if you guys saw this. He's not allowed at America Fest. This Tim pool. Yeah.

[Symposia Host]

Why?

[Podcast Host]

They said you're not allowed. And he used to film there every year. Film pods live on stage. So he made a whole video about this, and he was saying Charlie Kirk kind of held the right together, and now with the loss of him, the right is just everyone's fighting.

[Zena]

Wow. You know, I mean, I feel like especially like the online right as well, it's, like, really fracturing. And a big part of that is Nick Fuentes.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, yeah.

[Zena]

Nick Fuentes, I feel like, has captured something about, like, captured something really fierce in young men that I'm scared of. And I'm scared. It's like, for me, like, it's almost like a virus. Like, I just. I'm very afraid of that. And I think that we need to fight that with our. The best of our abilities.

[Symposia Host]

The issue is his beliefs. And I think. I think that Charlie Kirk has left essentially, like a power vacuum on the right, and now everyone's kind of trying to fight to take his spot, essentially. And I think that Nick Fuentes is vying for it, but I think the issue with him is just that his beliefs are. I mean, some of the statements he's made, it's just insane. Like, he was actively inciting violence when it came to encouraging January 6th protesters on the day. Like, the prolific use of the N word, his reverence for Hitler, like, it's just. It's too far. You know, it's not something that is going to be ever, I think, widely accepted on just a moral basis. So now the right has to decide. It's like, if you are going to allow Nick Fuentes to be a prominent figure in your party, you're essentially saying that what he's saying is morally admissible, permissible, you know, and, you know, you can't really say that and then be like, but we're pro life, except if you're Jewish, you know, like, that's not gonna really work. Right.

[Podcast Host]

Would either of you debate him? Because I know you were offered by aiden Ross in 2024. Now he's a lot bigger. So what do you guys think about potentially going head to head with Nick Fuentes?

[Zena]

I mean, let's just. We just gotta think about, like, not only, like, how. What are the consequences of that? Like, even just for your family, just number one, like, the kind of people that he's attracting are not stable, in my opinion. I don't want that. That kind of person. What are they gonna do to someone who is so the opposite? Like, I am the opposite of what Nick Fuentes is and stands for. Like, what. What would they do to that kind of person or the people that they're around? And also, what's the effect on everyone else? Like, I just feel like there's not going to be a purpose that's going to fuel their anger.

[Symposia Host]

You know, I think the way I think about it, because I honestly, I. In middle school and high school, I was obsessed with cults.

[Podcast Host]

Really?

[Symposia Host]

Oh, yeah. Like, not in a way of, like, I wanted to join in. Like, I'm studying, like a sociological student kind of way. And as I've learned more about hate groups and White supremacy.

As an adult, I've noticed that psychologically, cults and hate groups have a lot of similar kind of functionalities and getting people to believe these very kind of insane ideologies and to put their, the loyalty to this ideology above their loyalty to other people, essentially. And one of the ways that they both cults and hate groups kind of do this is through like socially isolating people of being like, nobody else understands you, everyone else is trying to attack you because they don't get it. And we have the higher truth and only our little insular group possesses that. So I feel like when you debate that person, win, lose, draw, no matter how the debate goes, you're still reinforcing that belief of like an in group and an out group. And if I on the out group and debating them, they can be like, aha, see, we told you people were going to attack you for these beliefs because they don't get it. And here this is happening.

[Podcast Host]

Right?

[Symposia Host]

So in a way, I feel like by debating him, you're only reinforcing his power and hold among, you know, the members of his little group.

[Podcast Host]

So would you label him his following a cult?

[Symposia Host]

I wouldn't call it a cult. I don't think it's a cult. I mean, like, they don't even meet in person. I don't think you can be an online cult. Yeah, but. Well, can you?

[Podcast Host]

There's been some weird discord cults and I don't know. Okay, but they still meet in person though, I think.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah, but I mean, I wouldn't call it a cult. I would call it a hate group. But I think that psychologically there are some parallels, you know?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I could see that.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Have you guys been watching Candace's series covering the assassination?

[Zena]

Oh boy.

[Podcast Host]

Getting a lot of views. She's. She actually became the number one podcaster because of this.

[Zena]

No, yeah, I like, I have like, seen some of it. And like, I think the thing with Candace, like what I know we've been interested in, been talking about is like, there's something so interesting about the intelligence that she possesses, but selectively engages in and displays, I believe. Like, I feel like often time when I watch these commentators, like, I have been super interested in debate for like a while and all I will hear is just like, fallacy, fallacy, fallacy, fallacy, statistic, fallacy, fallacy, fallacy. And then it's like for now, when she talks about certain things that go on in the world in a different way, in a more like almost like targeting injustice way, it's just like, suddenly I see the intelligence back again. So some of the stuff I've, I know people have been like, oh, my God, why am I agreeing with Candace Owens? Because she has that capability. It's just she's choosing when she wants to use it.

[Podcast Host]

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[Symposia Host]

I've been, I've been. I've been low key. I've been. I've been into Candace's glow up.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, yeah.

[Symposia Host]

Not gonna lie.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. I did not expect this.

[Symposia Host]

No. Yeah. I mean, like, if somebody makes a good point just because they're a conservative, I'm not gonna be like, no, still wrong. You know, like, yeah, she makes. She's bringing up some things that I think everyone is asking these questions. And I also think it's kind of hilarious that she seems to be more upset over the death of Charlie Kirk than his own wife.

[Podcast Host]

That's a good point.

[Symposia Host]

Have you noticed that it's not even Erica's live laugh loving? Like, why is she so happy? Like, why is she so happy?

[Podcast Host]

They must have been really close.

[Symposia Host]

I mean, her husband literally just died, like, several months ago, and she immediately took over his job and started working. Like, didn't even take a break after his memorial. Like, if your wife died, you think you'd take a few days off, like a week, Right?

[Podcast Host]

I'd probably take months off.

[Symposia Host]

Exactly. Isn't that weird that she just, like, immediately went back to work and isn't really talking about it? Like, if I was her. If it was me, God forbid, if it was me, I would be doing what Candace is doing and I would start a complete investigative journal. Like, it'd be like a taken post mortem influencer edition type beat.

[Podcast Host]

That's a lot.

[Zena]

So you're saying that Candace is acting more like his wife should be?

[Symposia Host]

Yes.

[Zena]

That's an interesting point. Well, you know, speaking of, you know, romances, Candace and Nick. Am I right? Candace and Nick Fuentes. Have you seen the shippers?

[Podcast Host]

Nick wants her, man.

[Symposia Host]

Does he want.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, Nick wants Deadly.

[Zena]

I've seen some edits.

[Symposia Host]

But he's a white supremacist. How could he?

[Podcast Host]

And she's married.

[Symposia Host]

And she's married. Yeah.

[Zena]

Oh, wow.

[Symposia Host]

That. That would be a very complicated dynamic.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, that'd be tough to pull off.

[Symposia Host]

I don't understand.

[Zena]

I mean, if anyone could pull it.

[Symposia Host]

Off, I mean, I guess I feel like it would just blow all his points, though. It's like, I hate black people. Except for this one. Like, when you look at.

[Zena]

Here's the funny thing though. When you look at, like a white supremacist incel. Nine times out of 10, like, you check the girls they're liking on Instagram. They're black. Like. Or they're just like. They are like, like, look at, like the. The fetish categories.

[Symposia Host]

Oh, no, I know. I mean, I'll get white supremacist. Like, I. I don't want to call them white supremacists, but I'll get hate comments and like, racist comments, and then that same person will DM me like, can I be your pay pig? And I'm like, okay, well, switch is crazy.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, well, a lot of people is projection.

[Zena]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So they're just insecure. Right. They're projecting that hate onto you psychologically.

[Zena]

That couple makes sense.

[Symposia Host]

Not saying I because they're both self hating, projecting.

[Podcast Host]

Do you guys get like. I know you get hate online. So do I. But do you get hate in person too? Like when you're just walking around?

[Symposia Host]

No, no, it's never happened.

[Podcast Host]

Really?

[Zena]

Yeah. No.

[Symposia Host]

Wow. Well, we live in Los Angeles, but I mean, I don't know what it would be like in other parts of the world, but I went to Utah and all these people, which is, you know, a very conservative state, and all these people were like, oh, my God, I love you. I was like, oh, okay.

[Podcast Host]

So that's cool.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Sometimes it gets crazy in the political scene.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah, I know. I do get scared. After Charlie Kirk died, my parents were like, we're hiring a personal security Guard. I was like, no, you're not. I'm fine.

[Zena]

Yeah, no, yeah. Like, I went to Tennessee and I met, like, I was at the Redneck Riviera.

[Podcast Host]

The hell is that?

[Zena]

That's Michael Knowles. Debated him in this.

[Symposia Host]

The name of the bar.

[Podcast Host]

Got it. Yeah. He does live debates with people drinking. Yeah, I've seen a couple of them.

[Symposia Host]

Those kind of scare me.

[Zena]

No.

[Podcast Host]

Well, Tim Pool had an incident at his last one.

[Symposia Host]

Well, I'm so glad I didn't go then.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. So he had Brian Shapiro, I think his name is debating Myron Gaines. And Brian got little physical altercation afterwards.

[Symposia Host]

So that was supposed to be me.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, that was the one you were supposed to be?

[Symposia Host]

That was the one I was supposed to be.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Symposia Host]

I was supposed to debate Myron. It was a really weird situation because they had. And I have all the texts, but they had DM'd me and been like, we'd love to have you on the show. And I was like, great, let's take a meeting. And me and my producer, the one who's producing our podcast, meet with one of his team members. I forget his name. And they're not trying to pay me. The most they can do is 500, but they'll fly me out. And I was like, okay. But I would have to take off work because I actually do, contrary to popular belief, have a job. So I was like, okay, I don't know if I'm gonna take off work for this. Cause they were gonna try and get me to debate Rachel Wilson. And I was like, I don't really want to take off work to fly across the country to debate Rachel fucking Wilson, you know? So I DM them. And I was like, you know, it's an interesting opportunity, but, you know, I need to know who I'm debating before I can confirm and, like, fly across the country. And then a week later, they send me an email like, thanks for confirming. I was like, I just told you, I wasn't confirming.

[Podcast Host]

Oh.

[Symposia Host]

And then.

And then I got a. I got a brand deal, so that was paying significantly more and I wouldn't have to leave my house. So I was like, okay, I think I'm just not going to do this. They haven't told me who I'm debating. They've tried to confirm me without telling me, like, and I don't want to fly across the country. So I told them, I was like, unless you're willing to meet the price of this other deal, I'm not going to come. And they were like, oh, but we Already started promoting you. And, like, we put out flyers and everyone knows that you're coming. And I was like, but I didn't sign a contract. I'm not confirmed. Like, I told you I wasn't confirmed. Yeah, why would you? And they use, like, an AI image of me and, like, fucked up my teeth.

[Podcast Host]

Wait, what?

[Symposia Host]

Yes, I was like, they took, like, an image. Like, they took a screenshot of me and then ran it through AI or something. Oh, why did you do that?

[Podcast Host]

I've seen that.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah. No, so they got really mad at me, and they called me unprofessional, blah, blah, blah, blah. They were like, you just want more money. And it's like, no, I'm not just gonna fly across the country and inconvenience myself.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, because that's in dc, right?

[Symposia Host]

Yeah, it's really far away. And it's also, like, a safety thing. It's like, if this is how you do business, like, how do I know I'm gonna be safe at these events? You know, Especially after Charlie Kirk. Like, I'm not trying to play around for real.

[Podcast Host]

So how was your experience on NOW Show? Because people are drinking, right? The crowds probably calling you out on stage. Like, was it pretty hectic?

[Zena]

Yeah, no, I mean, it was. Honestly, they did the booing, and the booing was really, you know, just like you are. You hear, like, an emotionally triggering Michael Knowles statistic or statement. It's like, yeah, okay. But, like, it was more so. Honestly, Tennessee was really, like, nice.

[Podcast Host]

The people were honestly, Southern hospitality.

[Zena]

The hospitality really got me. Like, I honestly really did enjoy that aspect. And there were two people, like, I just posted on my story. I was like, okay, anyone who is in Tennessee, if you happen to be in Tennessee and follow me, just come out. And two people actually came. I literally posted it, like, 30 minutes before we went out. And it was just so cool to meet some, you know, meet two people who lived in such, like, a place that, I mean, it's not. Nashville is, like, not completely red, but there was an overwhelming population. And how, you know, I could reach those people. I mean, it just was, like, really cool to see. So shout out to Kennedy and Hannah. You guys are cool.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah, Kennedy and Hannah.

[Podcast Host]

That's cool that you guys got fans everywhere, though, right?

[Zena]

We're. We're worldwide. We're worldwide.

[Symposia Host]

Mr. World. Mrs. Worldwide.

[Podcast Host]

Let's go.

[Zena]

It's crazy.

[Podcast Host]

Those jubilee videos get a lot of views, man. Yeah. I mean, some of them got, like, 5, 10 million, I believe.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah. Debating with Parker was fun. I definitely want to Debate with him again. That was actually a blast.

[Podcast Host]

Really?

[Symposia Host]

Yeah. No, that was a really fun mashup.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Symposia Host]

I mean, me and I met Parker the first time I met Parker and Dean for Charlie Kirk.

[Podcast Host]

That's how you all met, right?

[Zena]

Yeah.

[Symposia Host]

And I had no. I had literally no idea who anyone was at that.

[Podcast Host]

It's crazy how many stars came out of that debate.

[Symposia Host]

I know Marin. Although she's on the east coast, I feel like I never see her.

[Podcast Host]

Marin. I haven't seen her. But you, Parker, Dean and was Harry there?

[Symposia Host]

No, Harry was not there.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, he wasn't there.

[Symposia Host]

He was the only one who wasn't.

[Podcast Host]

Were you there?

[Zena]

Oh, I was not.

[Podcast Host]

You were not. Okay. You came on a little after that.

[Zena]

I was. I did Jordan Peterson.

[Podcast Host]

Jordan Peterson. Yeah.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah.

[Zena]

Candace. Candace Owens. We both did Cantonese, but yeah. Jordan.

[Podcast Host]

I didn't see the Candace one yet.

[Zena]

Yeah.

[Symposia Host]

Oh, that one was funny.

[Podcast Host]

That one come out yet?

[Symposia Host]

No. Yeah, it's been out for like months.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. What was the topic on that one?

[Symposia Host]

Feminism.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, really?

[Symposia Host]

Yeah.

[Zena]

Yeah.

[Symposia Host]

Her main point was just like women shouldn't be at work. I say while at work.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah. She works every day.

[Zena]

Yep, pretty much. You know. Yeah, she's been working for a long time. I mean, her career.

[Podcast Host]

And I know she does.

[Symposia Host]

Well, I know that's the thing that bugs me, the hypocrisy of it. And it is also like, you know, my mom worked my entire childhood and one thing that I think was really difficult for her is as a woman, you still have this expectation to be a homemaker. But if you are having, if you have a very successful career, that is a necessity to your family, you have to do that too. So when she says women can't have it all, you can. But you do have to have your husband step in and provide more of that balance.

[Podcast Host]

Agreed.

[Symposia Host]

You know, especially at home, if your career is popping the fuck off, you gotta pursue that because that's just beneficial to your entire family. And so, I don't know, it just bugs me when she pushes these traditional roles on women because there's a lot of women who don't have that option and who don't want that option. But it would be nice if we had partners who were like, oh, yeah, you know, you have to work late, I'll feed the kids, you know, like those little things. And I feel like my parents, like really tag teamed, you know, balancing parenting and work super well in a way that wasn't gendered. It was just like whoever's available to do this task will do it. I feel that, you know, and I just. I wish you could promote more stuff.

[Podcast Host]

Like that as a guy. From my point of view, I like, my girl doesn't work too much.

[Zena]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

But I'm also realistic. Like, that's not pretty realistic for most people these days.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

You know, I'm just. I work like 80 hours a week and I'm able to make up for the deficit.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah. And I feel like I got a lot closer with my dad as a kid because it was a very equal balance in terms of, like, parenting responsibilities.

[Podcast Host]

That's a good point too.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah. And it was really nice. Like, me and my dad are very close. Every debate, I always prep with him.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, yeah. He knows debate pretty well. How did you practice? Did you just get watch them?

[Symposia Host]

And Sina has a crazy story.

[Zena]

I have the craziest stories. I mean, like, I was. So basically I started out, like my parents were democrats, like, Nigerian. We were like, very much just like, my dad was obsessed with politics. Like, 24 7, he had CNN playing on four different screens. Wow. All the time. Damn. Your dad's like, my dad hardcore is like, lived out. I will say that's the terminology nowadays. That's what they say. I mean, the kids anyway, and. But then it was 2020 quarantine. I was super well versed in just like domestic American politics. And then I stumbled across, like, I essentially had a lot of online friends due to quarantine. And we would just 247 be reading like the densest, like, philosophical texts about the economy, about politics, about, like, communism, socialism. I'm like, every single political philosophy. Basically, we were not every single one. Whoa, whoa. But I ended up reading, like, writing like 300 pages about politics and communism with your friend.

[Podcast Host]

Publish it.

[Zena]

It's not. It's just notes. Like, it's really just me. Like, like, explain. And then I would go on, like, a tangent, like, explaining more of, like, how it made sense to me. Like, I understood so much of this for a while. And so it's. A lot of it is still up there, but it's like, it was just like such a really big interest for me. I don't even know why I was like, I was doing college, interesting. 14, 17. And from there I was just super interested. And it wasn't until college that I started to do something with that. And just like, I don't know, I started to use social media to do kind of intertwined to my, like, interests in regards to that. And it's just been like, cool to see, like, especially now it feels like the political climate is also starting to reflect some of the ideas I've had about socialism. And it feels like it all kind of makes sense. It was like a path and now I can keep doing this in my adulthood.

[Podcast Host]

So yeah, there's a lot of talk right now about socialism, communism. Right Mamdani?

[Zena]

Exactly.

[Podcast Host]

That's a hot topic right now.

[Symposia Host]

I like democratic socialism.

[Podcast Host]

You do?

[Symposia Host]

Well, I think that one thing that people get confused on is that socialism and capitalism are incompatible. That's communism, which I don't think this country is ready for, to be honest. Quite honest with you. I think that there's just too much corruption in government for us to be at a place where we could run an effective communist government. But when it comes to socialism, you know, I think the key tenets that really appreciate is that yes, we still have a capitalist system. Yes, there is still, you know, a means of production and private equity and private ownership. But when it comes to things like prisons, schools, hospitals, those are publicly owned, you know, things that you can't live without, things that are very much life or death and should not be for profit, are not. Because when you have like a private run hospitals, it just becomes such an easy means to exploit people because you have to go to the hospital or you will die. That's a life or death. And those things I just don't. I fundamentally do not believe that the healthcare system should be privately run, which is why I really support socialism.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Every time I hear of a hospital story, people are paying tens of thousands.

[Symposia Host]

Average if they can pay.

[Podcast Host]

Right, right. Average childbirth is $18,000 right now. Isn't that crazy?

[Symposia Host]

Insane.

[Podcast Host]

Most people can't afford that.

[Zena]

Can't afford to.

[Symposia Host]

I can't afford that.

[Zena]

It's absolutely crazy. And no, I just think people like, we don't kind of stop and think about just like, like the value of the things that we like. Kind of like how the value of the things that we have like gets there. And like when you look at just like anything, like if you kind of have the privilege of just like having certain means that make life easier in your life when you stop and think like, how did that get to, to me most of that value comes from people's labor. And that like idea is part of what really fascinated me about politics. Like how we have like all these like products out here that like we use and that value comes from other human beings. And that value is so imbalanced despite the fact that so many human beings can try to contribute value. So I feel like that's really a lot of what drives some of my political beliefs as well.

[Podcast Host]

Interesting. So that being said, do you believe the minimum wage should be raised?

[Symposia Host]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

What is it at right now?

[Symposia Host]

I mean, In California, it's 18. Is it 18?

[Podcast Host]

18 an hour?

[Symposia Host]

I think it's 18. I mean, I think it should be proportionate to the cost of living in that state. You know, I don't know if we need necessarily a federal minimum wage just because the cost of living is so different across the country. But where is. What's the lowest minimum wage in the United States? Isn't it like seven bucks?

[Zena]

Wow.

[Podcast Host]

That's nothing.

[Symposia Host]

Actually, I kind of want to. Can I Google it?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, look it up.

[Symposia Host]

Let's look it up.

[Zena]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Because with the rise of AI, a lot of these minimum wage jobs are going to be wiped.

[Zena]

Exactly.

[Podcast Host]

So it's looking pretty bad.

[Zena]

The thing with AI that's so scary is that it's so looming and we don't know so much yet.

[Symposia Host]

Oh, God.

[Podcast Host]

What is it?

[Symposia Host]

$5.50.

[Zena]

Wow. That has to change.

[Podcast Host]

What state?

[Symposia Host]

Georgia and Wyoming.

[Podcast Host]

Georgia is surprising because Atlanta is pretty big city.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So if you're making five an hour in Atlanta, like, how do you.

[Symposia Host]

How do you. Well, you don't. That's not a living wage. You just either have to have another job or you're just not making enough money.

[Zena]

Yeah, it's absolutely insane.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah, that's insane.

[Podcast Host]

The problem, though is if you raise it, companies are just going to keep replacing them with AI.

[Zena]

That's the thing. AI is going to be something that, like. The thing I really don't like about just right now is that we're in the stage before a big boom. Like, I feel like that's where we're at. I mean, I don't know though. And it's like we just don't have enough information to make conclusive. I feel like I know the conclusive decision we need to make is like, let's slow down. Let's figure out how this stuff works. That's 100 what I can say. But like, we don't know how, where it's going to end up.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. You know, well, Amazon just fired, like, I think it's like 60,000 people for AI. A lot of big companies are scrapping their DEI programs as well.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Like, it's, it's looking pretty rough. You're entering the job market, right.

[Zena]

Like, what communities does that impact the most when you have DEI being rolled out as well as women in the wage jobs? Like, it's just not. It's very clearly targeted. And that's why these kind of means of inequality I feel like happen like whether it be racial inequality, economic inequality, they happen together.

[Symposia Host]

I feel like me and Xena have actually had a lot of our own personal debates about the role of AI.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, so you guys have disagreed the means of production?

[Symposia Host]

Well, she's kind of put me onto the idea that AI can be used as a tool because I'm going to be honest, I'm a very anti. Clang. I don't like.

[Podcast Host]

You don't use any AI no, I.

[Symposia Host]

Use ChatGPT for sure. But look man, I'm a college student with two full time jobs. I can't even. But I don't believe that it needs to be a part of it should have any role in like government or any role in essentially replacing human work, you know, like you, I do not think that AI should be used to replace human labor. And kind of what Zena's pitched to me is a sense in which a lot of jobs are replaced by AI to the point where we no longer have to compete for resources because they're being mass produced by AI systems.

[Zena]

Well, what I more think is like I think that we can have. It's not specifically AI just think that we're getting to a point where we're seeing like a fake scarcity of a lot of jobs come about. Like that's been talked about a lot by economists. It's like jobs will be essentially there will be like they'll create fake scarcity so that we can create more jobs for people to work with because we're getting really good at producing. But the problem is we're doing that super unsustainably. I think that if we find a way to align our just like environmental output as well as our production power, that would be my perfect ideal for human beings so that we're not in this state of like high fear all the time about where's my next meal, where's that this and the third. And that being said, when we're in that kind of state, if that's possible or if we get closer to that, people will have less time devoted to just keeping themselves sustained. Instead you can do things that like the smartest people have come from having time to sit and think. Like think of Buddha, right? If we imagine a society of people that can do that, like imagine a society of people that can sit not only just and think, but then again pursue their passions because we have so much intrinsic motivation. Like intrinsic motivation predicts Psychologically, much more productive, valuable work and more efficiency. So that is my kind of goal for people. And however that looks, we don't know how far we're going to be able to get in regards to tech or if we can even do that ethically. But if we can do those things and we can do it sustainably, that's my goal.

[Symposia Host]

I'm not going to give my two cents on extrinsic versus intrinsic motivation. Me and Zita had the nerdiest fucking fight ever about this like fucking last week. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole. But I will just say about, in terms of AI, I think my fear is not AI itself. My fear is the programmers really. I think that the more jobs are replaced by AI, the more power you're giving to the people who are programming AI. So, and AI, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. Like everyone kind of thinks about it as being neutral, but it is basing its understanding of the world and its knowledge and functionality on data sets that are created by humans. Like they're looking at human data. What we've done, what we've created, what we've produced, everything on the Internet is part of an AI data set. Right? So not only does it have to. Does AI have to sift through the bias of humans interactions and uses with the Internet, but it's also being programmed by humans who are capable of bias. So there's both bias in the data that it's based off of and bias in the programming. Which is why I fear when you're taking jobs from people and giving it to the clankers, we believe that they're going to do these jobs better because they're unbiased and they're neutral, but in reality they're not because they're subject to the same human error that we all are. They just make those errors more efficiently.

[Zena]

Yeah, and I feel like this is why alignment is so important for AI production. And like the only way we can ever make progress in implementing AI is if we have alignment pat down, which is like the first thing we should ever do in this conversation is like stop speeding up. Because what's happening is us is competing with China to become the first company to be the biggest and create AGI and all these, you know, tech terms. But it's like if we slow down and align, we can trust, you know, and maybe we can either figure out how the black box systems work or trust what we're getting as output and then continue to scale Up So amongst, obviously environmental sustainability, obviously. But I think that's how the only way this would work. And that's why these goals, what we first need is a plan and then actions, I believe, to be implemented. But yeah, like, I think the thing with AI is like, we need to select the right pools of data to be pulling from to create these systems if we don't. Because what they'll do is they'll just, you know, make the process faster and not do that, take those steps to confirm. That's a big reason why. Let's look at, like, I don't know, Musk's AI. Musk is Grok. Grok is freaking.

[Symposia Host]

Grok is fucked. And Musk is fucked. I mean, well, it very much aligns with who he is as a person.

[Zena]

Exactly.

[Symposia Host]

There's like an Ahigo girl who's like, hi, I'm. It's weird.

[Podcast Host]

So it just pulls from people's tweets. How does Grok work exactly?

[Symposia Host]

Grok has made anti Semitic comments in the past. Like, Grok has quoted Hitler in the past. Like, yeah, and it makes that. Grok has had Grok and Meta AI actually had an issue with. I was going to do a video on this, but I was like, TikTok's going to fucking ban me for this. But essentially Meta had this issue where they were allowing people to make their own kind of AI chatbot Personas using Meta AI. And adults were making AI chatbot Personas that were supposed to be children.

[Podcast Host]

No way.

[Symposia Host]

And engaging in sexual conversations with AI bots that were supposed to be presenting as an underage AI bot.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, my God.

[Symposia Host]

And vice versa. Children were making on Meta were making AI chatbots who were engaging with these children sexually. So they were being doubly pedophilic. Wow. Yeah. So, I mean, if we look at how, like, I think that AI is an amazing tool. I'm not gonna lie. ChatGPT has made me some killer outlines. Like, I'm never gonna say that it can't be a tool, but thinking about, you know, the people who are making AI. Yeah, the data sets, it's based off of other fucking people on the Internet and how it's being used. It's very clear that there are some serious structural issues with preventing bias and inappropriate behavior when it comes to these chatbots.

[Podcast Host]

I wonder what the fix is. Cause they're not gonna just shut down.

[Symposia Host]

You know, I actually, like, I did check when I was reading about that and when I was doing my research on that, this was a bunch of months ago. And Then making that video, I did check to see, like, I tried to talk to some of the AI chatbots from my account, and.

It did get pretty sexual pretty quickly. I'm not gonna lie. I was like, oh, wow. Oh, wow.

[Zena]

She's very easy.

[Symposia Host]

Damn it. Got pretty sexual, but then it got to a certain point where it wouldn't go past. So I think they. And I think they might have fixed it. I'm hoping they fix it a little bit once it became like, a thing that was. They were aware of a lot of.

[Podcast Host]

Lonely guys these days.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah. So it wouldn't go like. It. It was like softcore. It wouldn't get to a certain level.

Rated M. Rated M for mature.

[Zena]

Yeah.

[Symposia Host]

And then. And then I tried to do it on my sister's account, but she wouldn't give me her password. So she's underage. So I was like, I want to see if it'll have a similar, you know, response to a user that they know is underage. But my sister was like, yeah, you're not getting my password. So.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. So, Xena, you mentioned China earlier. When you guys think about the biggest threat to America right now, what comes to mind is. Is China even in that mix?

[Zena]

Oh, I mean, biggest threats to America right now, I think, are algorithms promoting, like, very, very interesting behavior. Like, I think that, like, we are being. Honestly, it's the damn phone.

[Podcast Host]

Like, the algorithm of the phone.

[Zena]

Like, I think that that might be one of the big. I mean, I don't want to say the biggest. I think the biggest in America, obviously, is going to be, like, wealth inequality, obviously. Like, let's look at the fact that people are. No, let's look at the fact, like, people are really broke right now. People are also being targeted by the government right now. Those are obviously, like, a really big. I think those are probably the biggest structural issues, but I think as an afterthought to that, it's like, how do we fix that? It's got to be people collectively coming together and making a change. If our minds are fucked, we can't do that.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah. I think America is destroying itself pretty well on its own right now. I don't think we need any help from China. I think the issue is that we're going to weaken our economy to the point where China in the future will become. Become a much larger threat because we don't have the ability to defend ourselves economically. But, you know, it's homegrown.

[Podcast Host]

The dollar is getting worse.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah, exactly.

[Podcast Host]

We lose the dollar. We're. That's our Main power source pretty much.

[Symposia Host]

You know, it's like we're gonna be like. It's like we're turning ourselves into a third world country.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Symposia Host]

It's just amazing to me how unequal the wealth distribution is. Like, yeah, spot on.

[Podcast Host]

I feel like realistically it's only going to get worse.

[Symposia Host]

Oh, yeah, for sure. Before it gets better. Doing anything about it.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it's just not looking good.

[Zena]

I feel like that's the thing with me is like I am a pessimist who acts optimistically because that's my response to what I see. Like, it's not like I have the starry eyed view. Like, I watched the Lorax the other day and for me the Lorax is literally. I think I'm hoping we get to that chapter where we start to make this change and the world becomes. I want the world with the trees. Right. So it's like I'm there and I'm just like making myself. I'm gonna be Ted Wiggins. Like, yes. Like, that's gonna be me. Because what else can I do? Like, if I just play into it, is that gonna make me feel better? Like, no, I feel like I just. What else can I do? And if enough people do that, I know that the solution is if enough people act like that objectively, we will be able to change things. I wonder if that's possible.

[Symposia Host]

I need to rewatch Solor X because who the fuck is Ted Wiggins?

[Zena]

Dude who talked to the Onceler and got this story of what happened to Sneadville?

[Symposia Host]

Oh, okay.

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

It's a good movie. A lot of.

[Symposia Host]

I like the book. More of it.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, you're a book person.

[Symposia Host]

It's. No, I'm with you. It's Dr. Seuss. It's like five pages long.

[Podcast Host]

I'd be very curious with the wealth gap, what was the last president where it got better? You know what I mean? I feel like it just always gets worse.

[Symposia Host]

That is an interesting, interesting question. I mean, ups and downs, right?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Symposia Host]

Honestly, I think so much of it is super PACs too, because, you know, lobbyists, super PACs, all these presidents feel like in order to maintain power, they have. What's the word I'm looking for?

[Podcast Host]

Funding?

[Symposia Host]

No, like a promise trust, like an agreement. They have to kind of maintain an agreement with these super PACs and these.

[Podcast Host]

Private interests, whoever funds them.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah. And you know, money is power. So the more unequal the wealth distribution, the more people in power are going to pander to those with money.

[Podcast Host]

Do you think lobbying should Just be either limited or removed entirely.

[Symposia Host]

I think that there should be a cap on the amount of donations.

[Podcast Host]

I agree. Definitely agree.

[Zena]

Yeah, for sure.

[Symposia Host]

And I also think that the where donation, like, I think that, like, the data on who people are taking donations from, who politicians are taking donations from, should be like, readily available to the public. Like there should be. There's some department, there's some government organization that does do it, but it's not like it doesn't do it. Like break it down like, by numbers.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Did Elon remove that one or.

[Symposia Host]

He's trying to.

[Podcast Host]

I had an Uber driver that Elon laid off. I forget what department he was in, but he said there was like 40 of them that got completely wiped.

[Symposia Host]

Wow. Oh, from the Federal government?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Symposia Host]

760,000 people. Honestly. Yes, A lot. Honestly. If I was a conservative, that one, I can't believe we just glossed over it. I would be. People forgot about it already because so much shit happened.

[Zena]

It doesn't happen to you until it does. Right?

[Symposia Host]

Yeah, but it's also like this, you know, if you're going to be so anti immigrant. This guy is a fucking immigrant who walked into this country, was not elected, and then fired 760,000 people. But you're worried about like Mexican immigrants, like, who are working in agriculture. Yeah. Like, if you don't. We want to talk about immigrants are stealing our jobs. There's only one immigrant doing that and it's Elon fucking Musk.

[Zena]

I feel like that's what's so scary about the ideology for me because, like, when you look at all these ideologies, you, like, get to like, you know where we're at in this country now. It's like they increasingly get more incoherent. Like they keep platforming people who like melania immigrant. Like, look at all these people on the right who they like, keep into their camp but are still antithetical to their ideology and what they're doing. Like, the more incoherent I feel like an ideology gets and that the stronger it gets, you can see something drastically wrong is happening. And you get to. And then it gets to the extreme of Nick Fuentes, who's like homophobic and also like, like, you know, saying stuff like it's gay to be straight. Like, what does that even mean? And how are people so invigorated about something that doesn't make sense?

[Symposia Host]

There's too many inconsistencies.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Zena]

What is like, that's so scary, people. There's no logic.

[Symposia Host]

It's gay to be straight. You Heard it here. Well, I guess you didn't hear it.

[Podcast Host]

Here first, but have you guys seen ice out here yet? Any ice raids in la?

[Zena]

I have not seen.

[Podcast Host]

You haven't seen any?

[Symposia Host]

I actually have not seen it.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, that's surprising.

[Zena]

Yeah, but I've definitely, like, my classmates have.

[Podcast Host]

Really?

[Zena]

Yeah.

[Symposia Host]

It's wild in our neighborhood too, that we haven't seen them.

[Podcast Host]

I've seen them in Vegas. Vegas is a big hot spot, I feel like for them.

[Symposia Host]

Wow.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, because there's a big center over there. Crazy times, though.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah, I mean we were, we were part of the. We did a lot of the protesting this summer.

[Podcast Host]

You were at the no Kings?

[Symposia Host]

Yeah, well, we were at the no Kings. And then. Well, because, you know, everyone was like, oh, he's on fire. It wasn't. But so there was a no Kings protest, which was kind of like the Walmart sponsored lib protest. And then there was for like, I want to say a solid month before that there were mass protests in the. In downtown la. And those were the ones that the National Guard was at. Those are the ones where we got tear gassed.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, wow.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

You saw the National Guard there?

[Symposia Host]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We talked to them. My freaking boyfriend, he's a vet, so he walks up to the National Guard.

[Zena]

He'S like, did you pay for college yet?

[Symposia Host]

I'm like, babe, please. We're gonna get shot with freaking. One of those rubber bullets.

[Podcast Host]

Oh yeah, those hurt.

[Symposia Host]

Please go away.

[Zena]

Don't talk to them.

[Podcast Host]

That was hurt.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. We saw a lot of people get shot with rubber bullets. Like a lot of near misses. We got very fortunate. We got tear gassed. But we were wearing masks and stuff. So it wasn't too crazy.

[Podcast Host]

Holy crap.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah, no, it was kind of insane. And then the no Kings was kind of like everyone, like people brought their dogs.

[Podcast Host]

So the no Kings. I saw like grandparents there.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah, those ones were kind of. But it was nice. It was nice to see everyone get to come together because not everyone can do the protest before that.

[Podcast Host]

I've never been to a protest. Do you feel like they're pretty productive?

[Symposia Host]

You've never been to a protest?

[Podcast Host]

No, I've never felt the need to.

[Symposia Host]

Like, they're actually really fun.

[Podcast Host]

Really?

[Symposia Host]

I love them. I've been going to protest since I was a little kid and. Well, something about like me and Z. I feel like our friendship really blossomed through those protests.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, that's how you guys met about it?

[Symposia Host]

Ok. No, we met. We met when Charlie Kirk came to usc, got It.

[Podcast Host]

Got it.

[Zena]

Yes. Sorry. No, I was just like getting like remembering the protests, like the protests or something about it where like I kept saying, like, I feel like my job in this past week has just been like protesting in a way because every single day I wake up, I get ready, I. Like, we're running from the, you know, the police. Like, it's like I feel like, wait, what? I would not escalate. I mean, it's.

[Symposia Host]

We get out, we get ready, we're running the police.

[Zena]

No, I'm saying it's like it's true. Because they'll shoot into the crowd and you can clearly see that people are not being violent. That's what I was noticing. I thought, I felt, I saw the importance of being here and recording it and being here and seeing it and making sure that you have footage. Like it's so important so you can do a side by side to the news. And the news only shows the aftermath, which is what happens after the police bring forth when you're there beforehand and you get to see the full thing. Like, that is lethal and so important. I think that is the point of protesting every single time. They will come and they will try to intervene for no reason. The goal is to expose that and to touch people with that so that people can see something is happening.

[Symposia Host]

And there's something so beautiful about just like, you know, we see all this stuff online. Like, obviously, you know, we're reading comments, we're seeing people support, we're getting DMs, and those things are meaningful and interesting. But when you really actually like, are in just like, like a mass crowd of humans that are just like, we care enough about this shit that we're gonna leave our houses, risk our own personal safety to be out here and show that we're not okay with this. To see everyone else's passion mixed with your own, to see the tension, to feel those emotions, it's. It's really exciting and it makes it feel worthwhile. Like when you go back and make your little tiktoks, it's like, damn. Like, you know, like there actually really is a point to all this.

[Podcast Host]

That's cool.

[Symposia Host]

These are real life people who also are fighting for what I'm fighting for.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. That's why I do all my episodes in person too.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

It just feels different.

[Symposia Host]

There's just a difference. Yeah. Between the. In person.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. What's the next protest you guys are going to?

[Zena]

I mean, I don't know.

[Podcast Host]

I feel like so one every week out here.

[Symposia Host]

No, it's Actually, it's calmed down as it's gotten colder. It's definitely calmed down. There was another no kings. That was like, a month ago now.

[Zena]

Yes.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah. But since then, I haven't gone.

[Zena]

We've definitely been kind of out and about recently. I know. There's just been, like. I think especially with, like, a school as well. I've been balancing both, and it's been very difficult.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. I can't believe you guys are balancing that, by the way.

[Symposia Host]

It's impossible, dude.

[Podcast Host]

I had to drop out. I couldn't do it.

[Symposia Host]

It sucks.

[Podcast Host]

Work and school you got. I, like, you have to pick one.

[Symposia Host]

Well, I have one semester left, so it's like I drop out at this.

[Podcast Host]

Point, like, you're in too deep.

[Symposia Host]

Not only will my parents kill me, but, you know, I just feel like I have to get the degree.

[Podcast Host]

That's why I was scared to drop out. I thought my mom would be so pissed.

[Symposia Host]

Oh, my God. But they'd be pissed in a way of, like, we're crying that I can't handle. You know, you can yell at me, like, okay, I'll just sit there, but I don't know. I can't. I don't like seeing my parents cry. Like, I don't want to make my parents cry.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I feel that. So you're. You plan on balancing it, though, the whole way through?

[Symposia Host]

Wow.

[Zena]

Of course.

[Podcast Host]

Hats off.

[Zena]

I feel like, especially it's, like, one thing that helps, I would say, is, like. Like telling, like, getting your teachers to know you and, like, figure out, like, okay, like, what you're doing, like, what kind of person you are.

[Podcast Host]

That's where I messed up. My class sizes were so big. There was no personal touch.

[Symposia Host]

It is hard.

[Zena]

It's difficult with the larger classes, but, I mean, I have to be strategic about what classes I pick as well, just to make sure that it's, like, not going to be the kind of thing where, like, it's like. I don't know. It's. It's really. It's.

[Podcast Host]

RateMyProfessors.com.

[Symposia Host]

Oh, we love.

[Zena]

Exactly. Professors are like. They make and break your grades. I mean, it's just, like, a lot of balancing. But definitely. I've been feeling it this last weekend.

[Podcast Host]

It's just been like, you're all over the place. This last weekend was a collab after this.

[Symposia Host]

Insane. Yeah. No. We shot our first podcast episode this last weekend.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, nice. Guests or just you two?

[Symposia Host]

No, just the two of us.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. You plan on doing guests or just going to be you two?

[Symposia Host]

It's going to be a mix but yeah, we're definitely doing guests.

[Podcast Host]

Nice.

[Symposia Host]

Yeah, it'll be fun.

[Podcast Host]

That's awesome. Well, where can people find the pod? It should be out by the time this comes out, so.

[Symposia Host]

Well wait, when is this coming out?

[Podcast Host]

About a month.

[Symposia Host]

Oh it actually I might move it up. Okay. If you move it up. I think I have to talk to my producer but I think our target date is like December 16th.

[Podcast Host]

It should be out around that. So we'll link a YouTube in the video.

[Symposia Host]

Okay, cool. Yeah, well it'll be symposia pod. It'll be on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music where all the good podcasts go.

[Podcast Host]

We'll link your socials below. Thanks for coming on. I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.