Patrick Antonius: How to Compete with the Best Poker Players in the World | DSH #1609

Summary

Digital Social Hour Ep. #1609: Patrick Antonius – How to Compete with the Best Poker Players in the World

Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Patrick Antonius
Release Date: November 12, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Sean Kelly is joined by legendary Finnish poker pro Patrick Antonius for a deep dive into the world of high-stakes poker. Antonius opens up about the evolution of his career, his approach to competing against top players, the changing poker landscape, and maintaining peak performance both physically and mentally. The conversation is packed with insider stories, discussion of poker psychology, the influence of technology on the game, and Antonius’ entrepreneurial ventures.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Daily Life and Playing Preferences

• Day Games vs. Night Games

  • Antonius prefers daytime poker games over night games for better sleep and to maintain a balanced lifestyle.
  • "Play during the day makes a big difference for me." (01:48, Patrick)

• Tournaments vs. Cash Games

  • Lifelong cash game specialist; views tournaments as a "bonus" rather than a primary pursuit.
  • Cash games offer greater flexibility and higher stakes, aligning with his preferences for freedom and adrenaline (02:08–02:59).

2. The World of High Rollers and Tournament Life

• Triton Series Impact
  • Triton’s introduction of ultra-high-stakes tournaments has reinvigorated his interest in MTTs.
  • Describes Triton as providing top-tier player experience: 24/7 food, VIP service, and global venues (03:00–04:54, Patrick).
  • "Best tournament organization in general. So...they're getting all the best players flying in from all over the world." (05:14, Patrick)

3. Adapting Play Style & Poker Complexity

• Adaptation is Key
  • Adjusting play style based on opponents, not location. Flexibility is a hallmark of elite players.
  • Poker’s beauty lies in its blend of skill and luck, and the impossibility of perfect play (05:47–06:14).
  • "A good poker player is always adjusting...there's no really game style that you should have. In my opinion you should be able to do anything." (05:49, Patrick)

4. Growth, Passion, and Personal Development

• Changing Motivation

  • Antonius’s passion for poker has evolved: more about personal growth and the challenge than sheer volume of play.
  • Reflects on obsessive play as a young man, but sees greater fulfillment in measured, quality participation now (07:38–08:46).

• Poker as a Teacher

  • Poker provides lessons in psychology, self-control, and emotional management through wins and losses (07:03, Patrick).
  • "It can give you a lot, you can learn a lot about yourself with your wins and losses and everything, how you manage yourself." (07:04, Patrick)

5. Live vs. Online Poker

• Different Skill Sets
  • Live poker requires people-reading, intuition, and emotional intelligence; online is more about statistics and pattern recognition (09:14–10:05).
  • Discusses the difficulty of faking physical tells and the challenge of bluffing at high levels (10:05–10:37).

6. Dealing with Variance, Perfectionism, and Mindset

• Handling Downswings

  • Even elite players endure brutal losing streaks; self-awareness and the discipline to take breaks are critical to avoid playing "scared" (21:17–23:22).

• The Trap of Perfectionism

  • Poker resists perfect play, which frustrates his perfectionist instincts but also keeps the game fresh (18:35–19:47, 00:00–00:59).

• Luck’s Role in Poker

  • The best can play perfectly and still lose due to variance. Being outcome-oriented is dangerous (19:48–20:26).
  • "There's a big luck factor also...that's what tests you as a poker player." (19:55, Patrick)

7. Evolution and State of the Game

• Accessibility & Tools

  • Poker education has exploded; solvers and software have leveled the baseline skill for new players, but human judgment remains central (24:03–26:08).

• Drawbacks of Over-Reliance on Solvers

  • Mentions some "solver kids" lack the psychological and adaptive skills of old-school pros (25:51–28:01).

• Poker’s Current Boom

  • Poker is breaking attendance records worldwide, and Antonius predicts another surge in the game’s mainstream popularity (28:26–28:56).

8. Competing Against the Best

• Pride in Competing

  • True motivation is to keep up with the ever-improving field and continue challenging himself against the top players as he ages (11:14–11:47).

• Peak Performance

  • Feels he is at the top of his game and still improving thanks to motivation and energy management (11:48–12:09).
  • "I assume...[it will] be more difficult [with] older age. But I think I'm on a peak of my game." (11:46, Patrick)

• High-Stakes Mentality

  • High-stakes games bring out his best focus and performance; comfort zones and emotional control differentiate winners (14:07–15:16).

9. Solvers, Coaching, and Unconventional Play

• Selective Solver Use

  • Doesn’t use solvers for personal study, but works with coaches who analyze key spots with this technology for him (30:56–31:33).

• Opinion on GTO (Game Theory Optimal)

  • Prefers playing in unpredictable ways to push opponents into unfamiliar territory, exploiting mistakes (32:36–33:06).
  • "I would just like to play in the way that my opponents are not used to kind of facing...[so] they make more likely mistakes." (32:42, Patrick)

10. Physical and Mental Health

• Health-First Approach

  • Applies athlete-like discipline to poker: rest, physical training, and general wellness optimize his mind for competitive play (38:21–39:33).
  • Recognizes the brain’s need for change and adaptation, avoiding repetitive routines in supplements and exercise (39:59–40:49).

• Importance of Memory

  • Memory is crucial for recognizing patterns and exploiting regular opponents (41:15–41:21).

• Interconnection of Physical & Mental Health

  • Poor health and sleep jeopardize decision-making at the table and in life (41:33–42:30).

11. Entrepreneurial Ventures

• First Land of Poker (FLOP)

  • Antonius is co-founder of FLOP, a tech company creating digital solutions for live poker rooms.
  • Offers cloud-based poker room management tools and AI-driven player optimization (44:53–46:21).
  • Reduces wait times, enhances player experience, and streamlines operations using apps and digital lists (45:07–47:42).
  • "It's about player experience...it's the way the world is moving." (45:50–47:55)

• Upcoming Announcements

  • Teased a partnership with one of the largest poker platforms to be announced (42:50–43:06).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Poker is extremely complex...it's not a game that is meant to be played perfect and that's the beauty of the game." (06:14, Patrick)
• "I think I have more passion now...it's a different kind of passion." (07:38, Patrick)
• "Live poker is the real experience." (08:59, Patrick)
• "You can learn a lot about yourself with your wins and losses and everything, how you manage yourself." (07:04, Patrick)
• "It's a game really that...you have to play same hands in different ways otherwise you’re too predictable to play against." (18:40, Patrick)
• "You need to be very self-aware of how do you win and how do you lose." (21:17, Patrick)
• "Poker is living a very interesting period of time...nowadays it's so accessible to study the game." (23:41, Patrick)
• "If I have to say something about my game...I would just like to play in the way that my opponents are not used to." (32:42, Patrick)
• "Physical health goes completely together with how your brain and mind functions. It's as important." (41:33, Patrick)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:35] – Day games vs. night games, routines in Vegas
• [02:08] – Cash game vs. tournament philosophy
• [03:00–04:54] – Triton and high roller tournaments; player experience
• [05:47–06:14] – Adapting play style; importance of flexibility
• [07:03] – Poker as a tool for self-development
• [09:14–10:37] – Differences between live and online poker
• [11:04–11:47] – Competing against the best, setting goals
• [13:38–14:38] – The allure of high-stakes, adrenaline, and focus
• [18:35–20:26] – Perfectionism, variance, and the challenge of improvement
• [24:03–28:26] – Poker study tools, solvers, changing nature of the game
• [32:36–33:06] – Antonius' strategic edge: unpredictability
• [38:21–42:30] – Physical and mental health for performance
• [44:53–48:16] – First Land of Poker: vision, impact, and digital transformation

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers rare, authentic insight into the mindset and journey of one of poker’s most respected figures. Patrick Antonius discusses not just hands and strategy, but the emotional, psychological, and physical demands of playing—and excelling at—the game’s highest levels. The conversation is both a window into poker’s past and a look at its dynamic future, blending personal stories, practical advice, and philosophical reflections.

Whether you’re a poker enthusiast, a fan of elite competition, or interested in the transformation of classic games in a digital age, this episode delivers valuable lessons and engaging stories straight from the top.

Transcript

[A]

The wait is over. Dive into Audible's most anticipated collection, the Best of 2025. Featuring top audiobooks, podcasts, and originals across all genres, Our editors have carefully curated this year's must listens. From brilliant hidden gems to the buzziest new releases, every title in this collection has earned its spot. This is your go to for the absolute best in 2025 audio entertainment. Whether you love thrillers, romance or non, your next favorite listen awaits. Discover why there's more to imagine when you [e-mail] BestOfTheYear in my mind, I'm kind of a perfectionist. And it makes me many days after tournaments or cash games when I'm done playing and I can't get out of some hands that I played and what's that A mistake and how big. And I'm analyzing them and you know, and it's. Sometimes you decide right things, but it turns out to be horrible when I won a big part. Pot. Or you would have lost a big pot sometimes when whatever you decide to do and so on, and you just have to forget those and just move on and focus again. But it's definitely a game that no one can play any kind of perfect way. It's just one decision at a time.

[B]

All right, guys, got Patrick Antonius here in Las Vegas Playing a lot of poker lately out here.

[A]

Yeah, I play some.

[B]

You play any last night?

[A]

Yes, we play daytime.

[B]

Daytime.

[A]

That's the best thing here. We have these games during the day, so I love my schedule here.

[B]

You prefer the day games over the night games?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's. Especially nowadays. Nowadays it's a, it's a really nice thing to be able to play like normal sleep, normal hours, train normal hours.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Play during the day and makes a big difference for me.

[B]

You prefer the, the cash games, right, not the tournaments?

[A]

Yeah, I've been always a cash game player my whole life. It's. The tournaments has been something that I never really had any goals and they've been just fun bonus things. And.

I managed to.

I managed to really crush the games very early. And the cash games have been always like so much bigger than torments. So that's why I've been. I've been just focusing on what's bigger and, and also I like the freedom of it that I play when I feel good. I quit when I want. Once you enter a tournament and you stuck with the schedule for days, long hours and, and, but especially back in the days, the problem was that the tournaments were so small, like $10,000 buying and you can Go play a cash game where you can win or lose a million. It's like you have to win a tournament five days to make it. Of course you can lose that money, but it just gives you a perspective of how big of a difference it was game size wise.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And nowadays, you know, Triton has been an absolute game changer that this is why I started to play more tournaments nowadays. That it's, it's exciting. It gets my adrenaline going. It's obviously very big and it's also like very tough schedule to go and play two weeks every day. But I like this kind of.

I like tournaments a lot as long as it's, you know, like important enough, which means the money is big enough. And.

And it's, it's kind of like it gives you more feelings and it's, it's. I mean this is the best feeling in the world when you win a tournament. And.

But yeah, thanks to Triton that, that we have. We have these kind of high roller tournaments more because otherwise there would be very few and you wouldn't see me playing too many tournaments.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. They really, they really got the high rollers going to Asia now to play poker. Triton, right?

[A]

Yeah, it's. They're all over the world. It's just not in usa. They have events in Europe and Asia and Cyprus on Turkey side. And I think they might have one in Africa later this year.

[B]

That's cool. Where's your favorite place place to play at?

[A]

Montenegro is beautiful where they have it.

That's a very nice setup by the ocean. Good. I mean all the places. Maybe Jeju is a bit tough where they've had events regarding traveling and, and.

But we don't have so much time to do other things anyways once we play these tournaments.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But they have really like master the experience for the players. How they take care of everyone that everyone's needs is. I don't know what else you can have. What you, what else you can ask as a player. You have food 24, 7 served to you when you play. You don't have to think about how to organize that or dinner breaks or anything. And, and they have VIP service people responding you 24 hours regarding anything. And, and you see, yeah. Best, best tournament organization in general. So. But look, they're getting like people, very wealthy people and all the best players flying in from all over the world to play these tournaments.

[B]

Do you change the style of your play based off where you're playing, the location?

[A]

I mean I always change my style based on the players. That I play with like this is a good poker player is always adjusting so there's no really game style that you should have. In my opinion you should be able to do anything, anything. Just always do the right thing at the right time, whatever is right now against this player. And poker is extremely complex game. It's just.

It'S, it's something that we will never master and you know, it's not a game that is meant to play perfect and that's the beauty of the game. At the same time it's so much skill but perfect amount of luck and yeah, and.

Yeah, it's been a.

It'S been, it's been an interesting.

Journey with poker, like later age in my life. I've even realized how good of a game we have like how much more, more it can offer for a person than like early on my 20s when I was just wanted to play, play, play and it was so much about just action and playing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But as a, regarding, like a personal growth also like it's, it can give you a lot, you can learn a lot about yourself with your wins and losses and everything, how you manage yourself. There's a lot of human behavior, human psychology, a lot of energy exchange, lots of, lots of things that you can.

Take in and improve yourself.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense. Do you still have the same passion as you did in your 20s for poker?

[A]

Yeah, I think, I think I have more passion now. It's a different kind of passion because then when I was younger I was playing so much, I had a lot of passion to play and I played probably I went through a period of maybe playing like close to a 12 hour per day for six years, seven years. Wow.

[B]

No days.

[A]

This is a, I mean I sometimes but I would just like, you know, I was really lucky. We had. Online poker was then different than nowadays and before there were no like programs helping you and not even like a last hand histories were offered and the games were there 247 and very good games. So you could wake up, play online, eat breakfast, play some online, few hours, go to workouts or something, come back, play again, have another workout or whatever, whatever you do and play again. Like you can split your days when you played online, just all the way before you went to sleep. And I was playing a lot online those days when I was younger.

[B]

Before the solvers, before the cheaters.

[A]

No, I don't know about cheaters. I mean, I mean it's, it's. I mean there's been some scandals back in the days obviously but.

But live poker is the real experience. And this is also like I'm a much better live player than online. Maybe that wasn't the case 20 years ago.

[B]

But do you think there's more skill needed involved with live poker compared to online?

[A]

It's a different kind of skill we're talking about. Like you need to be much more statistically oriented when you play online based on your opponents because you, you're not gonna get live reads, you're not gonna get this kind of feel right. Sometimes you can get some little time tail or bidding size tell that you can make a make up your mind of what indicates weakness or strength. And this can be also opponent leading you another way. But live a lot of little things comes into play and good play always builds up, builds a feel of what's, what's happening, that's how strong or weak you are. And very little things that we can observe can, can influence your decisions. And.

It'S pretty difficult to fake a strong body language when you have a weekend. You are nothing like.

Other way around. I think if you have strong you can, you can probably, probably look weak. But it's very difficult to, to especially when it's like some big important moments that's in tournaments. You're risking your tournament, tournament life or you know, some, some play.

[B]

Yeah, it's tough to get a bluff through these days. Right. People are so good at the tells now.

[A]

Well, they're good at reading the game, reading the situation, reading the hands.

But yeah, every situation is different. So it's hard to say.

[B]

Yeah.

You'Ve played in some big games over the years. I mean what are you, 29th all time money list, number one in Finland. Have you accomplished everything you wanted to in the game of poker? Do you have any goals to this day?

[A]

I mean I have my goals.

I have my goals in general of just being responsible for myself that.

I really enjoy competing against the best. And it's nothing that is serious goal. Like, I mean I don't have to, I don't have to achieve these things. But I would really, really be proud of myself if I can keep up with how the game is evolving and the best players.

How strong they are and if I can still compete with them in like for let's just say the next 20 years. That was because it's, it's gonna be more difficult in the older age. Yeah, I, I assume and, but I think I'm on a peak of my game.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I still feel like you're getting better to this day.

[A]

Yes, of course.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

It's all, it's all like, it's all how much you put.

Effort on it and energy, how much motivation you have. It's just if I will.

Yeah like if I will.

If I have other goals that are important. They're taking, taking my energy. That's probably going to be a lot away from poker. But at the moment I'm pretty much full time, full time poker. And I really like it, I love it. It's something that makes me happy and I've experienced all kind of things when I've had periods when I don't play so much and there hasn't been so many big games available. And then I end up usually.

I end up doing other things that as the result is not always the great. Like I end up over training. I start training twice a day if I have because I have a lot of energy. Like I'm not a guy who likes to sit at home and watch tv. And I have a professional sports background. I used to do a lot of sports since I was little. All kind of sports and then tennis was my, was my sport. But.

But yeah it's, it's, it's. I noticed that I'm so much, so much happier when I, when I get to play a lot of poker. But obviously too much is too much. There's balance in everything. But it gives you some kind of satisfaction of you know, using your brain. Being in the present moment.

Stimulates a lot of thinking and.

If you don't get that you get a kind of find this kind of stimulation from some other things.

[B]

Yeah. So you like adrenaline, you like that rush.

[A]

I like the adrenaline in a way that when it gets his, gets my focus into it. If the game is not meaningful like it's too small then, then you don't.

Yeah. I won't enter that kind of state of focus, the kind of intensity. That's why I always like the high stakes and it's, it's also like been my best skill that once we play for big money that it's, it is meaningful for all of us. Like no matter how much money you have it brings certain aspects in the game that we start talking about players comfort zones that yeah.

What kind of hands, you know what kind of bet sizings they start been uncomfortable of bluffing or calling off and, and this, this brings another skill to the game and I've been always good at, good at kind of navigating this kind of, this kind of world. It's definitely a different type of game than low stakes when just chips are Flying and chips are flying and it's laugh. You know, you get stacked and it's just laughs and so on. Like, it's great poker, but it's a different type of poker.

[B]

Right. You're not playing as serious and.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, all the poker is fun. I mean, even the games we play is. Is a lot of fun. We have so much laughs and fun. But it's also that we know that it's. It's. Everyone is trying. And it means when someone is risking their chips, a big bet, it's really. Yeah, he cares or she cares. If. If you get called or not, for sure.

[B]

What would you say your favorite part about poker is? Is it the money? Is it the competition? Is it the camaraderie? What do you like the most about it?

[A]

Yeah, it's a good question.

I get a lot of satisfaction of playing against the best in the world, and if I'm. If I'm able to outplay them, like, this is. It's always a challenge and it's. It's something that, you know, you just don't go there and you just don't go there and do that. Like, you have to really be, like, mentally. There is. I like that when I play, it's really. I'm playing poker and everything else. I kind of forget. I'm trying to put my phone away and of course I'm. Sometimes I'm listening some music when I play and so on. But it's. It's.

It's very. I guess this is something. What makes me also happy that I can have this kind of state of. It's kind of your meditative state in the way. And analyzing and. Yeah, and.

But there's a lot of. Lot of great things.

What I like about poker, but I see. I think. I think it's really like.

You know, I had this thing that I was trying to play tennis, like, seriously, and I put a lot of training. And you wanted to go try to. Yes, but it was very clear at my teenage years, after a lot of injuries, that falling behind a lot from the best.

But people who never did competitive sports, they never got to compete in a way that they would feel these losses and wins and how it's disappointing and how it's how happy you are when you have performed on your highest level and so on. Like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like poker game. Give them this feeling, which they never had if they never did competitive sports. And this is very fulfilling, I think, for a lot of people to experience. It's a. It's really. It's really something that this game has. Has to offer that, that I don't know any other card game or.

Game that has so many different aspects and we're dealing player against player against player and there's so much pressure under such a quick time. You have to make decisions, solutions.

You have live reads, you have a lot of things that goes to into play on your decisions. And.

Yeah, and it's a game really that.

It'S hard to say when it's right or wrong things like you have to balance things, you have to play same hands in different ways otherwise you're too predictable to play against. And it's really a game that is not meant to be played perfectly. And.

Maybe that's my least favorite part because I'm kind of in my mind I'm kind of a perfectionist and it makes me many days after tournaments or cash games I, when I'm done playing and I can't get out of some hands that I played and was that a mistake and how big And I'm analyzing them and I, you know, and it's. Sometimes you decide right things but it turns out to be a horrible. You would have won a big pot or you would have lost a big pot sometimes when you, whatever you decide to do and so on and, and you just have to forget those and just move on and focus again. But, but yeah, it's definitely a game that no one can play any kind of perfect way and it's just one decision at a time.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so on.

[B]

Yeah. Because even if you play near perfect, you could still lose money.

[A]

Yeah. Right. Yeah, it's, it's.

Yeah, there's a big clock luck factor also and there's, there's all kind of things like this. That's what tests you as a poker player that you can be the best player in the world. You can have a horrible six month streak that you just, they just give you the second best hand like every day and, and you're going to be put on tough spots by players that when you have. There's a lot of spots that are very tough, complex. You have marginal hands.

And they just happen and you have those medium sized hands and second best hand against little bit and there's always your opponent is betting and they have just perfect hands to bluff you like how these hands play and everyone who plays a lot of poker for long period they will go through these kind of periods that they can really like. It can really start messing up with your head and you start questioning that how am I playing? Is this Kind of normal, this kind of luck and run of cards and, and, and, and some players, they really I think got hurt by just purely bad luck of losing their confidence on themselves and they, it. The, the final result is basically that they started to play too scared maybe.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which is very bad or also can happen the other way around that lots of players had a very good run for a long time where they just get away from all the bluffs. Opponent never had some big hands to call and everything just went their, their ways and they have overconfidence or it's. They think that it's if they're not self aware of how they win and how it happens that they kind of get very wrong data and they start playing too aggressively and they're gonna, next thing they're gonna hit the reality when the car starts to break even and so on. So there's a lot of these kind of things that you have to be very self aware of. How do you win and how do you lose?

[B]

Which is tough to do. Right. That's tough to be that self aware.

[A]

It can be tough. I mean a good player should know. But once it starts to happen for really long periods that you're getting consistently bad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Bad luck or something, some, something similar then yeah, it can, it can hurt your game. Like I had few periods long time ago when I was, I lost every hand for a lot of money like very quickly, like a week or two and, and I would just, I would just. It's good to take a break whenever we have different, different people have different preferences of break. Some people have one day good, some people one week. Yeah, whatever you think that, okay, you have cleared up your mind and you're kind of ready to play and, and then it's good to play a little bit softer games or smaller games and start getting some winning hands in and some, some successful hands and when you feel like you're playing your best again, you can, it's then better to go on the bigger games or so on. But we all do different things, we manage ourselves differently and this would be like an optimal thing. Thing to do.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And I think players are managing themselves much better nowadays and back in the days they were, they were.

You know, everything, all the sports were different back in the day. Everything is changing and becoming a bit, a bit more advanced and.

But I think poker is living a very interesting period of time.

Because nowadays it's so accessible to study the game to get better. We have all kind of tools, right. Tools to help solvers and so on. So you can, you can access a lot of information so fast and.

Get your game like a baseline game.

Pretty good pretty quickly. And so this is great. So this I think brought a lot of players to this game that wow. Like back in the days, like what you were reading some poker books that you could be sure that there's only wrong information because nobody knew anything.

[B]

I was scared to play back in the day because the skill gap was so high. Yeah. So like, yeah, everyone was so good and there was just too much of a gap back in the day. Oh, back in the day 10 years ago. Yeah.

[A]

But, but now we know nobody was good then actually probably like now with the solvers. Now people are finding out what is the better strategy, optimal ways of balancing your hands and so on. But when you go back in time 20 years ago, we had no information of anything. You would just play with players for months, days, weeks, years and figure out who's winning the most. And they were the best players who were just crushing the game and winning the most. But there were no such thing as.

Proving based on your watch statistics or anything that's who were really the best. And.

And it was interesting times. But what I was saying is that.

Now we have a lot of players coming to play, but they can access all this information. But this doesn't mean that they're able to play well. It's still an extremely complex game and everyone pretty much does some things too much or too little depending on situations. And, and.

It'S been interesting to see how players who are even overly studied.

How they're lacking a lot of other things that goes into the play. Like they're just playing it with numbers and it's like everything is just calculated and, and there are a lot of them are ignoring the human aspect of the game and humans just, we just play differently. Like we are much different than solvers. We will never be able to comprehend the.

Complexity of balancing these hands.

[B]

And.

[A]

Basically like humans under bluff every spot, almost not every spot, but a lot of them. And that's why we have adjusted our game style also because people bluff less, we also call less. So we have kind of a different baseline when we play against each other. That if you would put computers to play each other's, you would see a completely different right looking game.

[B]

Same with chess. Yeah.

[A]

And if you try to play like a computer against humans.

It'S. You're gonna go wrong in a lot of spots regarding, like you're gonna probably gonna make a lot of bad calls and be wrong a lot and but maybe if you try to play like a computer against humans, maybe you're gonna have a lot of success bluffing because they will fold a lot.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

But it's a. Anyways, it's an interesting time because poker players used to be kind of good at.

Reading each other's feeling it out, having this kind of feel and psychological.

Part. Back in the days there was a lot of players who were good at this kind of table talks and all these kind of things.

And now you see a lot of players that they're just coming from another world of studying the game through the solvers and.

They'Re gonna be lacking the things then back in the days.

Players were good at. But.

Yeah, it's not easy things, but it's definitely. Poker is growing a lot.

It's a really nice time to be, to be experiencing.

[B]

Yeah. Feels like there's another boom right now, right. With all the streamers. Now there's people filming every hand.

[A]

Definitely. Everywhere around the world, live events are breaking records. And I think we're knocking on the door again with, with our amazing game for mainstream. It's. It feels like it. And we will see. There's a poker league possibly coming soon.

[B]

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[A]

Soon?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To the North America and, and who knows it. This might be something that, that would, would take us further to the where I think our game belongs. We have one of the most entertaining games to watch on tv and let's.

[B]

Get it in the Olympics. That would be amazing. Right? You could represent Finland Olympics.

[A]

I don't know if it belongs there, but, but, but I definitely belongs to, to the mainstream.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's a universal sport, right? Anyone can play it.

[A]

Yeah. There's more than 100 million people who play poker. It's pretty, pretty large number.

[B]

Yeah, that's large.

[A]

Yeah, that's what the statistics say.

[B]

So do you use the solvers at all? Cause I've had Bryn Kenny on. He said he doesn't use them at all.

[A]

I don't use them at all. But when I.

When I study the game and I work with, I have my people that I, that I do some kind of, you know, sessions, improvements. Then we look at them like they look at my, I could say coaches or whoever I work with sometimes.

[B]

So.

[A]

But in this way, like, yes, we use them. I mean it's, we get information from looking at certain spots. But.

But yeah, it's.

I try to not look at them too much in a way. Like I, I've been having a very good baseline on my game naturally. That's whenever we look at some spots, what the computer would do or how they balance. Like. Like I'm almost always like already knowing what the computer does and what, wow, what hands and how the, how big the bedding size is. The computer would balance and so on. But the computer balances everything. The betting sizes. There's a lot of situations. It bets x amount of percent this time this size and I don't know, 30% time this size and then it checks some times like it's, it's a complete kind of shit show. Yeah, that, that how you, you have to have quite a complex brain to be a self aware of you balancing, balancing all the, all the hands that you don't do something too much and too little and.

[B]

But.

[A]

If I have to say something about my game, like what I.

What. I just like to think in general that I would just like to play in the way that my opponents are not used to kind of facing this kind of betting sizes and it's more likely they make you take them to areas in the game that they are more likely. More likely to make mistakes or, or maybe you're more familiar with this kind of line that you take in the hand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But yeah, it's a very, very complex game and I think people play too much using the same betting sizes and, and.

Yeah, I don't know.

[B]

No, that makes sense. You said you were big on tennis. Did you watch the French Open, the recent one?

[A]

Yeah, I managed to watch the last two sets.

[B]

Nice that was a great match.

[A]

Yeah, one of. One of the best. Yeah.

[B]

That might have been the best match I've ever seen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Carlos Alcatraz.

[A]

Wow. It says that it happens on the large stage. This kind of result that he says these match points and. And wins. Comes back like, it was probably like a 200 to 1 dog at Love 40 or something like similar.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that made it such a.

And then Cena showed such a mental toughness that he was able to. Able to come back and break. Break back on the last set and look like he was becoming a favorite to win it. And they just had it. This matches. Had it all kind of.

[B]

Yeah, it did. I was wondering who was going to step up and replace Federer and Nadal, and now Djokovic is getting old. Looks like these young guys are gonna do it.

[A]

Yeah. These are the two that a lot of people have.

Kind of predicted that they would be 1 and 2 and been taking most of the Slams, and here they are. Hopefully they don't face any kind of physical issues, which.

I think that's like the. Yeah, but for a lot of players, that's like. That's like something that's, you know, a good player. If you never know, you can. You can get any kind of injury, and that can put you back for a long time, and you might never recover and reach the same level. So hopefully these two stay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Healthy because they're playing incredible level, and every time they play, it's, like, such a pleasure to watch.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And there's other very strong players, too. Like, it's. Tennis is in good hands. It's really, really impressive.

To watch these guys play.

[B]

You play any pickleball or any. Padel, Are you two.

[A]

Yeah, Padel, I played.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I've been struggling still. Like.

Now I'm just trying to get back on tennis. Pickleball. No, not for me. I played one time, I kind of messed up. Messed up my back. This kitchen roll that, you know, you're reaching out on these valleys. And I did, like, a heavy leg day that day went to play. First time I didn't know anything about the rule and managed to just yank a nerve, which. Yeah, like, also, I didn't like the fact that there's kind of no touch on this because the ball is different. And the rackets that. I'm used to spinning the ball and touching. And you can just place it so precisely with tennis racket or paddle.

[B]

I, like, paddle last week.

[A]

Paddle is amazing. Yeah. Yeah, it is.

[B]

Yeah. One in Vegas. Now it's. It's fun.

[A]

It's a little bit tough for my hips. The move moving is more aggressive in paddle than tennis. You just have this lot of sprinting, a lot of like as a tennis player, like I don't have that paddle mind and game understanding where you just relax and let the ball go and positioning your yourself so well like. Like the pros do. Yeah.

But yes.

Anyways, I'm trying to get back on tennis. I still like it and. But.

Been having a lot of physical issues with Dennis is a tough. It's a tough physical sport.

[B]

Like it's one of the toughest body. You might have to get some stem cells.

[A]

Yeah, I still haven't done that.

[B]

I just got some last week.

[A]

There's some other things I haven't done that could help and Buzzy, I.

Yeah, yeah, I've been having like little bit heap issues and this kind of hip replacement has been knocking on the door a few times. But I managed without any, any surgeries and still managed to play. Been on a course quite a few times last year but nice. Now I'm back again. I need to work a little bit on the gym.

[B]

They say tennis is the healthiest sport you could play. They've done studies on longevity and racket Sports are the best for you.

[A]

Yeah, I've seen the studies. Yeah. It has something to do with this, you know, moving ball coming so fast and you're. You're hitting it, reacting on it, like for the brain. For sure. It stimulates I think the brain really nicely. Like also that makes me very happy every time I manage to be on a tennis court and not have too much pain and. And it's a really, you know, good feelings. It's my favorite thing to do out of any sport to play.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. The brain is super important. As a poker player, do you do any mental workouts or anything for brain health.

Meditation or anything like that?

[A]

I do a lot, but I don't do specifically something like basically I'm.

Health is my like passion and my life and it's my way to live and it goes together with everything. Like as a poker. I approach poker as a sport and the most important thing is that I'm well rested.

But yeah, I've done a lot of.

Work on my, my training. But.

Why would I say something specific?

The most important is that I play a lot of poker for my brain. Basically. That's like.

The more I play, the less kind of less I go wrong. Like some small mistakes or something and you realize some spots instantly what to take when you need to bluff or how much to. How much to bet and so on. But I've been doing long time like brain. Brain optimization with my health guy with just basically just becoming healthier and healthier. But there's. Then there's some. Some things that will optimize your brain functioning. But it's really complex. I can't really talk about it because I don't even understand it so well myself. Like, kind of the things that I understand is that what I have learned is that the brain is like a master of adaptation that.

You need to it get used to anything pretty much after periods of time. So you always have to kind of keep changing things. Even this is like what you doing and also like supplementation and kind of trigger it in a different way. If you do the same things over and over again, take the same supplements over, over again, it's at some point you just.

[B]

The effects start diminishing. Right?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You always. You need to like. Yeah. It's so complex. I don't even kind of what I've learned about health that it's. It's to me, it's so complex that I leave it to the professional, the best people I'm. I understanding but I could never understand the complexity of how deep the health goes and what to. What to do.

[B]

And there's so little we know about the brain right now.

[A]

Yeah. And we're all different. I know also that what. What works for me doesn't. Most likely doesn't work for you. It might feel much different if you take. Eat the same things and take the same supplements as I do. And yeah, we all different. Yeah.

[B]

I would imagine you need good memory as a poker player to remember specific hands against the same people though, right?

[A]

Yes. Very good. Very important. Your memory.

That's very important. Yes.

Yeah. You just.

Our brain is everything and.

But it goes also like. Also like taking care of your body and physical. Physical health goes completely together with your. How your brain and mind functions. It's as important.

And.

I think it's pretty tough to make right decisions overall if you, if you haven't slept well, if you have a lot of chronic inflammation or pain and you have.

Whatever issues you have, that's basically that is stopping you to feel good. So if you're feeling good, you're gonna put yourself in a much different position to make right decisions. Whatever decisions those are. Doesn't mean that we're talking about. Poker might be about anything in life, what decisions you have. We all have to make so many decisions every day.

[B]

Yep. What's next for you? I know you got some companies you're working on. What's the main focus for you the rest of this year?

[A]

Oh, it's gonna be a busy year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But yeah, every year is busy and I like it, I like it like that.

Yeah. I can say that I recently I signed a contract with one of the largest poker platforms but this I'm not gonna publish here yet. I will publish it when it's the right time.

But that means that there's gonna be some new things a little bit.

I'll be playing some high stakes Cascades and Tritons.

Yeah. Also also you're probably probably aware of I'm a co founder of First Land of Poker flop. So it's been a long long way long way with with, with my company or our company. But.

Things are looking pretty good regarding our product and development. Nice that.

We will do some.

Cascade events with our land based casino partners.

Next year most likely.

But yeah this is.

It's gonna be the same things pretty much for me. Like I keep poker taking care of myself. Playing a lot of poker.

Yeah. Being involved with some projects.

I mean I don't know if, if you.

You, you can, you can edit some of this stuff. Yeah, yeah. Because I don't know maybe we gotta edit something regarding.

It's so much easier if you ask questions about the first line of poker. For example you want me to me talking about it in the way but.

But yeah.

[B]

So you're the co founder of First Land of poker. What is that company about?

[A]

Flop, which stands for first line of poker. We offer our digital solutions for land based poker room. So basically we have a.

Cloud based web solution that automates the poor room's daily operations and optimizes their tasks from just opening tables, sitting place down waiting lists. Also loyalty point program and we have for the players we have an application where they can see all the games that is running. They can take seats, join a waiting list, communicate with the poker room. We also have a new thing coming with this AI that we have AI helping the players to connecting players together and guiding them to our partners poker rooms to play so they can.

We help them to create optimal games for the players. It's about player experience pretty much and it's still a lot of poker rooms. They're operating in a pretty old school way that if they don't use any digital solutions it's a pretty.

Time consuming process from the time you wanna you decide you wanna go to play poker until you get to play like yeah.

[B]

Some people are waiting for an hour sometimes. I heard.

[A]

Yeah, so you gotta drive there and sometimes how do you find the games if there's available and if you don't live even close by? Like some people drive one hour to play.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then they're waiting and all these kind of things should be optimized. I mean players, time is very valuable and, and yeah, and it's, it's. I've been very, very surprised at how, at least back in the days, how, how complicated it's been for the players. As a cast game player myself, like how much I wasted my time running and calling and you know, then I'm on the waiting list and waiting and waiting. Like there's so many bad experiences from a lot of players that they stop even playing. Like they drive one hour and then they don't have a seat and then they're waiting three hours and couldn't get a seat and back home and you want to do it again tomorrow and like, like it's not, it's not ideal. It's not every poker room that has lots of games that you have, you know, you can choose from and you always get to play. And, and it's just optimizing.

Optimizing all these kind of things for the, from both sides for the poker room for them also to, to give this kind of service for the players and, and Nice.

Yeah, yeah, it's, I mean it's the way the world is moving. It's, it's, it's coming. It's. I would say this is one of the last industries that they're using, using good digital solutions to improve their operation. These poker rooms.

[B]

Yeah, we'll include a link to the, the website below. We'll include a link to flop in the description.

[A]

Yeah, you can, yeah, you can check from First Line of Poker, our website, especially if you have all the poker managers or poker rooms, they can check our solutions.

Yeah, perfect.

[B]

Thanks for coming on, Patrick. That was awesome.

[A]

Check them out guys.

[B]

See you next time.

I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.