Podcasting Secrets: From Pro Poker to Top Podcaster | Liv Boeree DSH #757

Summary

Digital Social Hour Episode #757: Podcasting Secrets with Liv Boeree

Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Liv Boeree
Release Date: September 26, 2024

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1. Introduction and Background

In this engaging episode of Digital Social Hour, Sean Kelly welcomes Liv Boeree, a retired professional poker player turned successful podcaster. The conversation delves into Liv's transition from the high-stakes world of poker to the creative and intellectually stimulating realm of podcasting.

Notable Quote:

Liv Boeree [00:31]: "One of the main incentives for me to do the podcast in the first place is because I want to read more... and it's a really good way of doing that."

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2. Transition from Professional Poker to Podcasting

Liv discusses her reasons for leaving professional poker in 2018. She highlights the evolution of the game from intuition-based to data-driven strategies, which didn't align with her personal learning style and enthusiasm. This shift made the competitive nature of poker less enjoyable for her, prompting a career change.

Notable Quote:

Liv Boeree [05:50]: "It was a combination of things...I just didn't have the fire to keep doing that."

Sean and Liv compare poker to chess, both being games that require intense mental focus and strategic thinking. Liv reflects on her sporadic return to poker, describing herself as a "cheerful amateur" rather than a competitive player.

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3. Balancing Logic and Intuition in Competitive Games

The discussion moves to the balance between logical analysis and intuitive play in games like poker and chess. Liv emphasizes the importance of emotional intelligence and self-awareness, noting how these skills are critical in high-pressure situations to avoid tilted decisions that can lead to losses.

Notable Quote:

Liv Boeree [23:37]: "Poker trains you to learn to understand your own biases because like wishful thinking and like biased thinking is the death knell to any poker player."

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4. Navigating Health Challenges and Embracing Spirituality

Liv opens up about her diagnosis with Meniere's disease, a condition leading to progressive hearing loss and vertigo. During a particularly rough episode at Burning Man, she encountered a stranger who performed energy healing on her, an experience that shifted her worldview. This event introduced her to the potential interplay between science and spirituality in healing.

Notable Quote:

Liv Boeree [10:12]: "So after that, I was like, well that... having a worldview shaken up right now."

She discusses the balance between scientific skepticism and openness to alternative healing methods, recognizing that while some experiences may be placebo effects, others might tap into aspects of healing beyond conventional science.

Notable Quote:

Liv Boeree [13:39]: "I think there is something to it...maybe you need to be in an open-minded state to feel anything."

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5. The Power and Risks of Artificial Intelligence

Sean and Liv delve into the transformative potential of AI, highlighting both its benefits and inherent risks. They discuss AI's role in healthcare, such as improving diagnostic accuracy, while also acknowledging fears about AI's misuse in surveillance, warfare, and potential extinction-level threats.

Notable Quote:

Liv Boeree [42:18]: "We're just in the most high stakes stage of history ever. Basically, it's an exciting time to be alive."

Liv underscores the necessity of designing incentive structures that promote the ethical development of AI, ensuring that its advancement aligns with humanity's long-term well-being.

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6. Conscious Capitalism and Ethical Incentive Structures

The conversation shifts to the broader economic systems, with Liv advocating for conscious capitalism. She critiques how short-term incentives often clash with long-term societal good, using examples like the pharmaceutical industry's reluctance to promote non-patentable remedies.

Notable Quote:

Liv Boeree [33:54]: "What we need to do is critically examine the design of the incentive structures that we are using to drive progress."

She emphasizes the importance of aligning business practices with ethical standards to foster win-win scenarios that benefit both companies and consumers.

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7. Relationships and Personal Growth

Celebrating her 10-year anniversary with her partner, Igor, Liv shares insights from her podcast, Win Win Podcast, which focuses on cultivating mutually beneficial relationships. They discuss the importance of emotional intelligence, effective communication, and the willingness to adapt and grow together over a decade.

Notable Quote:

Liv Boeree [25:18]: "Relationships are arguably one of the best examples of a win-win thing."

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8. The Importance of Community in Modern Life

Liv expresses concern over the increasing digitalization of communities, pondering whether efficiency gains come at the cost of personal fulfillment and genuine human connection. She references the Blue Zones, regions where people live significantly longer, attributing their longevity to strong community bonds.

Notable Quote:

Liv Boeree [48:57]: "It's clearly better when incorporating community into lifestyle."

She advocates for balancing digital interactions with face-to-face relationships to maintain mental and emotional well-being.

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9. Overcoming Loneliness and Building Meaningful Connections

Addressing the pervasive issue of loneliness, especially exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic, Liv and Sean discuss strategies to reconnect and build stronger interpersonal relationships. Liv highlights the importance of physical presence and emotional exchanges that digital platforms cannot fully replicate.

Notable Quote:

Liv Boeree [51:42]: "There's something tangible that gets made that you can pick up on or something."

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10. Conclusion and Future Endeavors

As the episode concludes, Liv shares where listeners can find her and her podcast, encouraging audiences to engage with her content to explore strategies for creating positive, win-win scenarios in various aspects of life.

Notable Quote:

Liv Boeree [52:05]: "You can search 'win win with Livebury'... that's the main place."

Sean and Liv wrap up the episode by reflecting on the transformative nature of the conversation, emphasizing the blend of intellect, spirituality, and ethical considerations that define Liv's journey from poker to podcasting.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Digital Social Hour offers a deep dive into Liv Boeree's multifaceted life, seamlessly blending discussions on competitive strategy, personal adversity, spirituality, and ethical societal structures. Listeners gain valuable insights into balancing logic with intuition, the profound impact of community, and the critical role of conscious capitalism in shaping a better future.

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Connect with Liv Boeree:

• Podcast: Win Win Podcast
• Twitter/X: @livboeree
• Instagram: @livboeree

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussions between Sean Kelly and Liv Boeree.

Transcript

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[Host]

Are you a big reader?

[Liv Boeree]

I am. Now, one of the main incentives for me to do the podcast in the first place is because I want to Read more, like, 7 out of 10 in knowledge across a lot of different facets, and it's a really good way of doing that. So I want to be able to, like, not just ask, like, dumb questions if I can find, like, one spot where I can challenge the guests. And that's satisfying.

[Host]

That's true. All right, guys, we got Liv here, retired from professional poker now, and now podcaster.

[Liv Boeree]

Yes.

[Host]

Thanks for coming on.

[Liv Boeree]

Thanks for having me.

[Host]

Yeah. It's podcasting the main thing for you right now?

[Liv Boeree]

Pretty much. Although, like, I am not as set up as this. You're just saying how many episodes you've done. Like, I'm managing to maybe crank one out every two weeks.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Liv Boeree]

You're doing, like, well, 800 in a year and a half.

[Host]

Yeah. 14 a week. 15 a week and off my hat. Yeah, but yours are more longer and more in depth.

[Liv Boeree]

Yes.

[Host]

You go into it.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah, definitely. It's like, I don't know, I have to go and read it. Usually the person's just written a book, so I have to read their book and then try and find all the ways I can critique their book.

[Host]

Wow, that's intense.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah.

[Host]

Okay, I see why it takes you two weeks.

[Liv Boeree]

Then there's a lot.

[Host]

So are you a big reader?

[Liv Boeree]

I am now. It's actually one of the main incentives for me to do. Do the podcast in the first place is because I want to read more. I want to become, like, like 7 out of 10 in knowledge across a lot of different facets. And it's a really good way of doing that because I want to be able to, like, not just ask, like, dumb questions. And also, at least if I can find, like, one spot where I can challenge the guests. And that's satisfying.

[Host]

But that's true. Rogan does a good job at that.

[Liv Boeree]

He really does. Yeah.

[Host]

You can talk to anyone. Lex, too? Yeah.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah.

[Host]

Your episode on Lex was great, by the way.

[Liv Boeree]

Thank you.

[Host]

Yeah, I think that got a ton of views, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well done. Him and Negrano was a good one, as well, he's coming on tomorrow.

[Liv Boeree]

Oh, he is? Yeah, I'm seeing him tonight.

[Host]

Oh, you are? Oh, small world.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah.

[Host]

Tell him I said hello. Do you still play?

[Liv Boeree]

I play like twice a year. I was here for. In the World Series. I played the main event for all of about four hours.

[Host]

That's usually how it goes.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah. I mean, short and sweet. I came in like day two, just swoop ten classic. I mean, not even an interesting hand. But it's, it's so interesting how quickly you get rusty. Like, I've still got some sort of, some kind of database in my head of how poker works, but it's like the mental machinery is slow. I can't calculate things as quickly as I used to and. But it's nice. It's like now I feel like a, a cheerful amateur as opposed to someone who's actually trying to like be good and have their ego wrapped up in it.

[Host]

Right. That's how I feel about chess because I play a lot of chess.

[Liv Boeree]

Really?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Liv Boeree]

You got ELO.

[Host]

I'm 1450.

[Liv Boeree]

Okay.

[Host]

What's yours?

[Liv Boeree]

I got on a good day, 1300.

[Host]

Oh, you're good?

[Liv Boeree]

I'm okay. Yeah. I. So I went through like a kind of cracked out period where I could like, I would play an hour of blitz games before every night. Right. And I don't know, but like, I find it's like a, you know, I try and start with the 10 minute games and then it's like, well, I want a bit more of a. Action and it's five minute. Next. Next thing you know, I'm playing one minute bullet and.

[Host]

Oh, one minute.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah. So I had to stop and it was like, go cold.

[Host]

I just uninstalled the app yesterday. It's too triggering.

[Liv Boeree]

Right.

[Host]

If you lose like two, three in a row, you get so tilted and you start playing aggressive and then you lose another two and three, you're down 100 Elo. You know, chess is a. I'm sure poker is similar where you lose a few hands in a row and you're like playing tilted or like, I mean.

[Liv Boeree]

If, especially if you're playing lots of tournaments, it's, you know, there's so much luck in, in any given like, game of poker, you know, you. We play for a day or for a few hours. It's like luck is a very big factor. If we play all week, then obviously the skill matter, you know, the, the luck factor gets smaller. But with tournaments, you can sometimes, if you're only playing live tournaments, you might only play 100 a year. It's very easy to have a losing year or even multiple years and be still technically a positive return on investment player.

[Host]

Wow.

[Liv Boeree]

So it's, it's very brutal. And so then you start playing, you know, you can't. Is I, am I losing because I'm playing badly or am I just getting unlucky? But then sometimes that can just make you stop playing worse. So it's like, it's very. Yeah, it's annoying.

[Host]

So is that why you retired in 2018?

[Liv Boeree]

One of the reasons. I mean, definitely. I mean, I've been doing it for like 10 years or more and the game had really changed since when I first started playing. It was much more a game of like street smarts and reading people's body language and intuition because we didn't really know, no one really knew what the, the real like mathematics of the game was. But then this sort of data revolution happened where it became all about analyzing. You could like use software to analyze the, what's called game theory, optimal solutions. And so it very much, it came, it became almost more like chess study and that. It's like whoever would be willing to sit and just study and memorize all these solutions and try and like men, you know, make their brain be like the computer would be the best players. And it was fun for a while. Like, don't get me wrong, I've had plenty of like nerdy rabbit holes. I like to go down, but like it did not suit a. My learning style and I just didn't have the fire to keep doing that. And then I was just like getting harder and harder to sort of keep up with the best.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Liv Boeree]

So yeah, it was a combination of things that. And I also wanted to try some new stuff.

[Host]

It seems like it took away the fun from the game.

[Liv Boeree]

Some people love it, but for me personally it did. Yeah.

[Host]

No, for real, like these kids are just nerds with. I don't want to stereotype people, but you know what I mean?

[Liv Boeree]

Like it's the, I mean there's still some space. Like some of the really best players, like, like Negroni for example, right. He, you know, I mean, he's not like best best, but he's still very much up there. And he, he's one of the few sort of old school players who ultimately learned, you know, played as he's one of these like street smart hustlers, but then realized, well, I've also got to learn all this, you know, dig into the analysis side, the, the mathematics. And so he also incorporated that and then he. So now he's kind of got both sort of sets of playing styles to draw upon.

[Host]

Right.

[Liv Boeree]

And the best players are the ones who can do both.

[Host]

Agree. Do you still keep up with it at all or did you kind of walk out completely?

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah, not. I'm not really following it that much. As I said, like, yeah, I come and play two tournaments a year and that's, that's, that's enough for me. Wow.

[Host]

Just scratch your itch, right?

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah.

[Host]

Damn. So you're really checked out then. There was a lot of interesting things this year at the World Series. Kristen Fox and made a deep run.

[Liv Boeree]

Yep. Yeah, I mean, I was following that because, I mean, if I was a tournament I was in and, I mean, the main event is always just really fun to, to, to follow. But yeah, Kristen's amazing.

[Host]

Did you see the final drama with the two guys? One of them was using gto.

[Liv Boeree]

Oh, no. I. So I actually didn't watch the final temple. I heard this. So, yeah, he was like. He had a laptop on the side and that was going and like, consulting it. Yeah. I mean, at worst, it's very much outside the spirit of the, of the game and kind of bordering on cheating. And at best, it just, it's a really dumb thing to do because it just makes you like. I mean, I get it, like, it's your one shot. There's so much money on the line. But it's like the main event is meant to be about the main event is what it is, because you get these amateurs from all over the world trying to have their shot. And if they see that, oh, wait, there's like the math guy on. You know, the math guy has got his army of math guys on the side and they've got all the answers and it's like on tv. It's not good for poker, but yeah, it's one of these classic dilemmas where short term incentives for the individual don't match up with what's actually good for the whole game.

[Host]

Yeah. Yeah. So poker's turned into a very logical game. But I've seen you on other shows and it seems like you got a spiritual side to you. So what I've seen you talk about using energy healing on your body.

[Liv Boeree]

Okay. Well, yeah, so I, I grew up pure, like, science rational, you know, rationality. I studied physics. I'd never had any kind of weird, unexplainable experiences until I get to Burning man one year. I've been to Burning man in many, many years, but one particular year I'd been having this, like, problem with my ear for a few months prior, where I couldn't. Men's voices were being distorted, and it would come and go, but it was really like I couldn't socialize. Men's voices, only men's voices were just becoming really unpleasant to listen to.

[Host]

Whoa.

[Liv Boeree]

And I assumed it was something to do with, like, the lower frequency or something, but anyway, it sucked. And went to various doctors and. And they told me some of them didn't know what it was, but they noticed I'd lost some of my hearing in that ear as well, as well as having all this distortion. And in the end, I got diagnosed with a thing called Meniere's disease, and which is. It's. It's. From all accounts, basically, it's a progressive hearing loss thing. You eventually end up going deaf, but along the way you have these, like, bouts of vertigo and these attacks of dizziness, and it sounds miserable. Anyway, so I've been having this on and off for a few months. Get to Burning Man. I have another really bad attack of it where I get the vertigo for the first time, and I'm really sad. I'm on the last night, and I get talking to this girl, and she's like, well, have you tried doing any energy healing? I just kind of laughed at her. Like, that's not my thing. No, I don't believe in that. And she's like, I mean, you sure you don't want to try? I was like, yeah, all right. Screw it. What have I got to lose? Long story short, she ends up, like, sucking with her mouth over my ear.

[Host]

What?

[Liv Boeree]

And she. She was quite an unpleasant sensation because it was, like, very loud. And I was like, please stop. She said, there's something there. I was like, okay. And then she sort of. The end of it, sort of drops to the ground and is. Is quite, like, in discomfort, shall we say. She's, like, cold and shaking. And she was like, that was a. That was a major thing I needed to clear. And I was pretty freaked out by this because it was like, well, that was. I've never seen anyone have that kind of reaction. And I can't say I really felt anything particularly other than, like, the unpleasantness of that. But her reaction was quite jarring to me because she seemed genuinely like she'd been through something. And I was like, well, am I better? What does this mean? And she was like, yes, that was. It was. Whatever it is, it's. It's been cleared, it's gone. You'll probably have the physical symptoms for another few weeks. And Then you'll be fine. And that's exactly what happened.

[Host]

Whoa.

[Liv Boeree]

So after that I was like, well that, I mean like, talk about like having a worldview shaken up right now there's plenty of, you know, classical explanations which is, you know, maybe it was going to just go away anyway. Maybe I didn't have many airs and I had something else. I mean, that's possible. Maybe the, you know, a lot of people talk about the placebo effect, right. And it's how it's incredibly powerful. But I mean, I think that can be both true and this was also a realm of healing that conventional science doesn't understand. Because like placebo effect is basically the rigorous science world word for this is something we don't understand.

[Host]

Right.

[Liv Boeree]

The body and brain is doing some form of healing and is beyond our realm of current understanding. So you know, there's many different lenses you can look through about what, that, what happened there. Like did I have an energy blockage? Was it something, you know, darker? Was it, was it just a like post viral syndrome I didn't know about? Who knows? But what's been useful from that experience is that now like, it's like I have another tool in my arsenal of how to deal with stuff like whether it's in my own health or like someone like another friend I'm seeing who's, who's in some form of distress. It's like, okay, it's not just mind, mind and like psychology. There's also like this like spiritual side of things like this, this more like esoteric realm that can also be a useful like medium of healing.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Liv Boeree]

So yeah, so that's why like when you said, oh, you're into energies, it's like well yes and no. I, I, I'm trying to navigate this world with some scientific skepticism, but also like a healthy balance. Because before I was too closed off to this idea and now it's like, you know, I went through a period where I was like, well so if that's true, then what else is true? And I was quite scared for a while because I was like, oh, are demons real? And so on and so forth. And like, you know, because it was just so such a jarring experience. And now it's like, oh no, there's like, how can there are ways to sort of navigate along the spectrum of like cynicism and rationality to all out woo. I think there's elements of value, like there's valuable things along that spectrum and you can like pick and choose which things to use, right? Yeah.

[Host]

So that's interesting. So you acknowledge it's there now. You just don't know where you sit on what you believe in.

[Liv Boeree]

I think, I think, I know. I think there's, I think there is something to it. I've tried, I've since tried things like Reiki and I've had sometimes not notice much and other times felt something quite notable and they weren't even touching me. I was like. And again it's like well, are you, is it, is that just like my brain tricking me? Is it actually something real? And I think it's, it's kind of a bit of both. I think maybe you need to be in an open minded state for, to feel anything in the first place. So in many ways you almost have to like trick your brain into a certain state of being. But then once it's there then it starts actually becoming real interesting because you know, we, I don't, I don't subscribe to the notion that you know, object like there is this like cold objective reality and we're just little blobs moving around in it. There is some kind of interplay going on where like our consciousness simultaneously is affected by the external world but also sort of feeds can also affect it.

[Host]

Wow.

[Liv Boeree]

So, so yeah it's, I think both things can be simultaneously true. But we need to, you know, so we don't want to be so cynical that we're closed off to these alternative ways of healing that are like pretty low risk, high reward but also not so open minded that our brains fall out.

[Host]

Right. Yeah, there does seem to be that divide with the science world and the spirit world, spiritual world, but I'd be willing to try it. Like you said, the risk is pretty low on these things. Sometimes they're not even touching you at all.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah.

[Host]

So what's the worst that can happen?

[Liv Boeree]

Right? I mean like some people I'd say go to what I think would be concerning is if, let's say, you know, you hear these stories of people who then you know, they'll have in a strong experience of healing like this and then they'll be like, well all science is, all science is nonsense.

[Host]

Right, Right.

[Liv Boeree]

I'm not going to listen to any of that anymore. I don't.

[Host]

People like that.

[Liv Boeree]

Right. And that, that's I think the danger. And it's like there's a way to have healthy balance of both. That's in fact the best way I personally think. And it doesn't have to be perfectly 50 50. You know, I think various people have different like are More inclined in different directions. But you need to have some kind of grounding and balance in both.

[Host]

Right.

[Liv Boeree]

For the best results in my experience.

[Host]

Yeah. Probably be useful to have in poker to be able to kind of feel people's energy, you know, see if they're bluffing or.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah, I mean there's definitely like I've had times where I've just had a really strong feeling that I'm like, I know my cards. This, this is a trash hand. But I just know I'm gonna hit what I need to hit.

[Host]

Wow, really?

[Liv Boeree]

And then it came.

[Host]

Whoa.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah.

[Host]

You manifested the card.

[Liv Boeree]

Did I manifest it? Am I did. Have I somehow subconsciously picked up on another piece? On a piece of information I didn't know? Is it something from like, is time not linear? Like there's, there's many different explanations from anything from like the very wooey again to like. Well, maybe there's just like I'm picking up on something. Well, I mean, feeling, sensing that you're going to hit when, when like a card still to come, that's a different thing because like technically no one has that information. Right. But yeah, at the same time it's not perfect. There have been, I've had plenty of times where I've had some kind of feeling and then it didn't, and then it didn't hit. So then it's a question of like, well, am I just remembering the times when it did?

[Host]

Interesting.

[Liv Boeree]

That's possible. But I've known a few other poker players and I've certainly had it myself where like I was quite. When I won this really big tournament In Europe in 2010, I had a voice in my head that said, you're gonna win this tournament. Right. Right before the tournament started. And I've as far as I can remember never had that in any other one. And it was the tournament that like, when I, you know, I was kind of a nobody in poker prior to that. And then one week later, I was like the biggest star in poker for the next few months.

[Host]

Holy crap.

[Liv Boeree]

Because that's how big this tournament was. And also just like it was a perfect storm. I was like a 25 year old girl. It was the biggest tournament held in Europe at the time. Um, and like the British newspapers somehow got wind of it and I was like on the front page of like all the tabloids in the UK that week. So it was a really big deal and it fundamentally altered the trajectory of my life.

[Host]

Dang.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah.

[Host]

That was like a life changing moment.

[Liv Boeree]

And you absolutely one of the most Notable moments of my life.

[Host]

And that message came on that moment.

[Liv Boeree]

Yes.

[Host]

So there must be some sort of overlap or something there.

[Liv Boeree]

It's. Yeah. I don't know, it just was like, it was like kind of like the. My own voice in my head. It wasn't like it sounded like someone else. You know how you sometimes just like have an idea and it's like you can kind of have some inner dialogue.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Liv Boeree]

And it just said, you're going to. Well, I can't remember if it was I or you, which is interesting. But it was like, you're going to win this tournament. And I was like.

[Host]

Startled you.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah. No, like it's. I remember looking around the room being like, okay, that I just heard that, okay, maybe I'm going crazy and. And then the tournament starts. I proceed to lose like half my chips and I'm like, well, that was nonsense, I guess. But then I recovered and then I made it to day two.

[Host]

Wow.

[Liv Boeree]

And then day three, and then day four, and next thing I knew I'm like, final table, down to final six. It was 5000 Euro buy in tournament. And even the even ninth was like 80,000.

[Host]

Damn.

[Liv Boeree]

And then I ended up winning it for 1.25 million.

[Host]

Holy crap. Can't even do the math on that multiple. That's crazy.

[Liv Boeree]

It's a lot. Yeah. So yeah, that, that's a lot of little like data point to me of like sometimes there must be some other realm of information out there that we can access. I don't have a reliable way of doing it. I wish I could say this is how you do it. I have not figured that out. And I know a few other poker players who've had similar kind of experiences. Maybe not as strong, but. You should ask Daniel.

[Host]

You think he's had one?

[Liv Boeree]

I don't know. I haven't asked him. But I'd be really curious whether he has had any kind of like, this is going to be a good one for me. Now again, like, you know, was it a premonition that I was going to win? Was like I knowing something from the future or was it just like I had this weird like mental blip and it gave me so much confidence that I was just able to play this like, weird a game maybe. I don't know.

[Host]

Yeah, it's super interesting. Did you know a large percentage of people don't have an inner dialogue?

[Liv Boeree]

I've heard that recently actually. Just like nothing.

[Host]

Nothing. So they don't talk.

[Liv Boeree]

How do they think?

[Host]

That's what I'm wondering. Because I Talk to myself all the time. Yeah, literally as soon as I get up, talking to myself.

[Liv Boeree]

Because it's like there's. There's this thing called Aphantasia as well, right. Where you can't. Some people can't visualize. If I'm like, what? Think of an apple in your head. Close your eyes and visualize an apple.

[Host]

Red apple.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah, you. You know, at least most people can see it. At least the shape of one and the color and maybe a little bit of shine. And especially if you add layers of words onto it, you can usually make that image stronger. Some people just don't see anything at all.

[Host]

What?

[Liv Boeree]

Yes.

[Host]

That's weird.

[Liv Boeree]

And it's not, as far as I can tell, correlated to, like, intelligence or anything. Like, I know a guy, another poker, one of the smartest people I've ever met, and he says he has it completely. He. He doesn't see anything when he closes his eyes. So I don't know whether he's like. But he probably has a strong dialogue in his head or monologue, should I say? Because he says he. He like, visualizes things by sort of speaking them out or something.

[Host]

Yeah. Some people see words. Right?

[Liv Boeree]

Right. So it must be like synesthesia adjacent or something.

[Host]

Yeah, I see objects when people start saying words, know. Have you noticed the top poker players have any correlation with IQ levels?

[Liv Boeree]

I mean, there's definitely. Yeah. Like, if I was to wager whether the top players are above average iq, I would strongly wager that I can't say there's been any, like, rigorous studies done on it. You know, again, certainly in the modern game, it's about it. It would probably favor those with the classical, you know, people who would do well on an IQ test because it's a certain of very linear thinking that you have to be good at to excel on a. On a IQ test. Like, okay, that shape corresponds to that and there's this pattern and so on. So it's very logical. And there's a lot of that in the modern game, whereas in the old school game it was a little bit more intuitive, which, again, probably correlates to being good at an IQ test. But it's. It's less, you know, that. You often hear of people who have, like, really strong street smarts but aren't actually that good at logic puzzles. Yeah, right. Does it make them less intelligent? Well, it depends on, like, intelligence is such a nebulous concept. You know, we have these ideas of, like, emotional intelligence or rationality quotient. You know, how good a hog, how Good are people are understanding their own biases. That's another form of intelligence.

[Host]

I heard of that one.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah, it's a good one.

[Host]

I need to take that test.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah, it's. I mean, it's. But the nice one about that is it is trainable.

[Host]

Oh yeah?

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah.

[Host]

Okay. Because iq, you can't really change too much, right.

[Liv Boeree]

I think you can probably study to a degree like, because again, it's like learning how to do a certain type of puzzle.

[Host]

Right.

[Liv Boeree]

So I wouldn't be surprised if there's something you could do to probably like increase it by a few points. But I'd say some of the other ones, like emotional intelligence, like again, it's. I mean I think all of these things are somewhat learnable, but some it comes. Different types come easier to others. But that, I mean, again, that's the cool thing about poker and other games, especially poker. It. It train like, it forces you to learn to understand your own biases because like wishful thinking and like biased thinking is the death knell to any poker player.

[Host]

Right. They'll go broke.

[Liv Boeree]

Right. Like, you know, we're playing against each other and you make a huge bet. And I have kind of medium strong cards, but a lot of my chips already invested. My motivation is to find all the reasons why you might be bluffing. And you know, because like that's probably my only way of beating you at this point. So I'm motivated to look for the evidence that confirms that hypothesis and motivated to like ignore all the other evidence that sort of goes against it. But that's a very. That's. That's not actually rational. Right. Really, I want to just evaluate everything as objectively as possible. So I can't remember how this related to my point.

[Host]

We got on a tangent there. We've been all over the place. I only remember we were talking about.

[Liv Boeree]

We've caught a lot of ground.

[Host]

Yeah. Iq, eq. We were talking about tests. I don't know how we got there, but yeah. I recently saw you had your partner on your podcast. I've been thinking about doing that. So what ended up happening with that episode?

[Liv Boeree]

Oh, with, with Igor. So yeah, Igor is my. He's another professional poker player we met playing Poke do it anymore either. And we recently had our 10 year anniversary of being together, so. Thought so. My podcast is called the Win Win Podcast Shameless Plug. And it's about like looking for things in life that are win wins where you know, that positive sum endeavors where the sum of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. And relationships are arguably one of the best examples of a win win thing.

[Host]

Right.

[Liv Boeree]

If they go well.

[Host]

Right, right.

[Liv Boeree]

But they can be very win losy. You know, some are very sort of.

[Host]

Some are lose lose.

[Liv Boeree]

Exactly. And, but a lot more often than not. More often than not. But if anything, they're either lose lose or win win, usually. And if you have a good relationship, you can get pretty well calibrated at spotting ones that like, seems like this relationship is a net negative on both of you. So, yeah, we decided for our 10 year anniversary to sort of interview one another about what we've learned over the course of the relationship that's been, you know, that we think is helpful for other people.

[Host]

Really?

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah.

[Host]

Okay. Yeah. Because 10 years is a long time these days. You know, there's people breaking up every month. My friends are going through tens of relationships. Pretty common.

[Liv Boeree]

How old are you? 27. I mean, that's a common age for people to like go through breakups. I, I, I didn't meet Igor well, I didn't get together with Igor until I was 29.

[Host]

Oh, okay.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah.

[Host]

Pretty late.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah.

[Host]

Nice.

[Liv Boeree]

And I just turned 40, so, yeah.

[Host]

Congrats. You go to the club or did a party?

[Liv Boeree]

It's, it's, it's interesting. Yeah, it's the first, it's the first birthday where I was like, yeah, okay, I'm, I'm over this now. I, like, done, I'm done with this number going up thing.

[Host]

I feel that I'm already feeling like that, to be honest.

[Liv Boeree]

Oh, just wait.

[Host]

Yeah. Oh, man.

[Liv Boeree]

30S are great. Actually. 30s are really, really awesome. I mean, 40s. I can't say everyone's like, oh, it gets better. I'm like, okay, but what was good about 30? You think I just stopped caring about stupid stuff as much. And I mean in general, you get that is something that just as you get older, it seems to be the case. You're just like, okay, I've been there, done that. That actually doesn't matter. Okay. This thing does. So you, I think you're just a little bit more efficient with your emotions.

[Host]

Okay. So you used to care a lot about what people think about you and.

[Liv Boeree]

What is like, oh, I need to be the best at this, and, and sort of arbitrary metrics that didn't actually matter.

[Host]

Yeah, it's easy to go down that route. Right. Trying to prove people wrong, trying to be the best. So you had that attitude with poker.

[Liv Boeree]

Yes. Which incidentally though, you need some of.

[Host]

Right.

[Liv Boeree]

That was actually another reason why I kind of ended up transitioning out of the game was I just lost. To be a great, great poker player, you need a real fire in your belly. You need to be competitive and like, be wanting to look your opponent in the eyes and like, essentially rip out their heart, take their money, to take their money. And I just lost. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm still very competitive, but I just, I don't know, didn't have that same fire.

[Host]

Is it because you befriended certain players, you don't want to take their money away?

[Liv Boeree]

No, no, it was, I don't know, I. In my early 20s, I felt like that was how I could prove to the world and to myself that I was cool or something. And it just became less of a thing that mattered. I still care about proving to the world, like, you know, I, I still care what people think about me. I do want to be successful. It's just, I guess my priorities have shifted about what, like I care about being successful.

[Host]

Yeah. Well, now I think you could have more impact with the podcast for sure.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah.

[Host]

Poker is just one thing of life, like, right.

[Liv Boeree]

And also by definition, poker is a zero sum game. My win is someone else's loss, and.

[Host]

Vice versa, player versus player.

[Liv Boeree]

But like a podcast, especially like one that like educates people or makes them happy, like gives, it provides inspiration, is such a win win thing. You know, you're putting, you're gaining something out of it. You get to have cool conversations and grow your platform and hopefully monetize and then your audience get a bunch of information for free.

[Host]

Right.

[Liv Boeree]

It's really cool. It's like the pure act of creation.

[Host]

I agreed.

[Liv Boeree]

So, yeah, that was, yeah, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to do, do my show.

[Host]

What were some of the biggest win wins you've found on the podcast so far?

[Liv Boeree]

Oh, good question.

[Host]

On some big people. So I'm sure there's some, yeah, big wins on there.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah, I mean the, I think the thing that I'm trying to like nail down through the show is what are the ways how can we harness the power of competition such that it is aligned with what humanity needs in the long run? Because really competition is what makes the world go round and collaboration, obviously. But like, you know, our economic system is built upon competition and some industries are very clearly win win. Like, you know, discovering new drug discovery or something like that. Like, uh, it's you, you, you discover some amazing new cancer curing drug. You'll probably get very rich from doing that and you'll help a bunch of.

[Host]

People or you'll end up dead.

[Liv Boeree]

Clear. Win. Win.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Liv Boeree]

Why would you end up dead?

[Host]

Well, Big Pharma might not want that out.

[Liv Boeree]

Well, all that. Okay, sure. Well, okay, so that. So let's, let's, you know, just assuming the, like, good health industry, which I agree there's. There's plenty of whacked incentives in. In the pharmaceutical industry as well, but. Okay, let's find another example.

[Host]

Sorry.

[Liv Boeree]

No, it's fine.

[Host]

I have on a lot of holistic people on the show, so.

[Liv Boeree]

No, and I mean, there's definitely some truth to that. Again, like, there's so many things that are being missed because it's not easily, you know, like, okay, maybe this is oversharing. There's a certain, like, simple sugar for anyone who gets regular UTIs. I went through a period where I had, like, just kept having UTIs and doctors couldn't figure out why. And I went on all these antibiotics and so specialists, and they're like, we don't know. It's just one of those things. And it wasn't until a friend who was very into very holistic stuff said, oh, have you tried this D Mannose? It's a. It's a, like a simple sugar you can just buy in any health food store. I was like, why would I do that? She's like, oh. The molecular shape of it is more adhesive to the bacteria that usually cause a UTI than the lining of the bladder. So they all stick to that and you just pee it out. Out. And it doesn't cause any antibiotic resistance or anything. You should try it. It was like a magic wand. Every. But my UTIs just completely went away and I basically never had them again.

[Host]

Wow.

[Liv Boeree]

And not a single doctor had told me about it. So I went on like, a rabbit hole of, like, why is this not widely known? There had been a few little studies done on it, all of which were positive, but ultimately it's because it's not something that can be patented. It's just a sugar.

[Host]

Wow.

[Liv Boeree]

And it's like. So it's one of these. If you sort of dig around and read it on, like, a women's health forum, you might find it.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Liv Boeree]

But it's somehow not in the scientific establishment's mind, which is crazy. So there is, yeah, real, real truth to this. You know, that incentives don't always align. And so, yeah, that's really, like, coming back to your question. Like, one of the main things that Winwin has sort of shown up through all these different interviews is that, like, what we need to do to fix so many of our problems. Whether it's like misinformation, you know, media, like leaning more and more into clickbait or all these like addiction methods that are being used on social media to get teenagers are addicted to whatever the latest platform is and so on. They're all a result of short term, you know, because all of these companies are in a rat race against each other. So they're trying to do whatever they can in the short term to get a competitive edge.

[Host]

Right.

[Liv Boeree]

So these short term incentives are misaligned with what is actually good for, I mean the health of the entire industry itself in the long run, but also for all its, all the consumers, all the customers. And so the like common theme that is emerging from every interview is that like we have to as a species critically examine the, the design of the incentive structures that we are using to drive progress. So it's not like a clear answer. Like that's, oh, that's a clear win win. But I like that that's what we got to do.

[Host]

I agree.

[Liv Boeree]

And it's a very hard problem.

[Host]

Very.

[Liv Boeree]

So that's why I've like, just like that's now my mission. I'm like trying to like get everyone thinking about how can we think better about incentives.

[Host]

Very hard. Because of capitalism. I call it conscious capitalism. So I like to make money, but if, if the other side is losing or if someone's getting injured, I don't want to make money that way because of karma or whatever. You know, I want to be conscious about how I'm making the money.

[Liv Boeree]

That's actually an interesting point. Like karma is maybe an underutilized concept because it is actually a form of, it's like a metric of whether or not you're doing good. But it's a self, it's a self forced one. Like right. There's no one from top down saying, oh you're gonna have bad karma. Yeah, it's something that within yourself you're like, I believe that I, the universe has a form of wisdom that knows whether I'm doing something that's good or bad and it will punish me if I do a thing that hurts, harms others. Yeah. Maybe we need to like spread that meme more.

[Host]

Agreed. Yeah. Karma is kind of seen as like a woo woo, like spiritual thing. So some people don't even believe in it. A lot of people don't.

[Liv Boeree]

Well yeah, I mean if you're a career criminal, clearly you don't because otherwise you like, I don't know, you assume unless you want the pain. I don't know. Yeah, but yeah, it's. I don't know whether I believe in it because there's so many examples of like bad people getting away with terrible things.

[Host]

Yeah. Then it gets into that debate.

[Liv Boeree]

But I think the world would be a like, clearly better place if everyone did believe in it.

[Host]

Agreed, agreed.

[Liv Boeree]

Right.

[Host]

Because then why would you do bad things?

[Liv Boeree]

Exactly. If. If in an ideal world people would just not do bad stuff because they empathize with their fellow human or like have. I mean, the other thing as well though is like a lot of bad things that happen on earth are dumb. Not because people intend to be bad, but just because they don't realize that they're being, you know, like they're doing a bad thing. Like, you know, we now seeing all these studies about like there's microplastics everywhere. Right. And they're all in our brains and everywhere. And people's testicles. And it's not like those. The companies that made all this cheap plastic packaging, you know, thought knew that they were doing an evil thing necessarily. It's not in the beginning, but the incentives, again comes back to incentives. The incentives, the intense competition they were in to like package their products as cheaply as possible because, you know, to protect their bottom line because otherwise their investors get mad and leave them or they can't attract more investment. So they've got to, they're under all this pressure to cut corners and use whatever cheap plastic packaging they can. So it's, it's. But maybe if they had the like true foresight, they'd had the information that like in 10 years time this is going to be everywhere, including in your own children's brains.

[Host]

Right.

[Liv Boeree]

Do you really want to do this? Then they might not have done it. So like they would have done the conscious capitalism thing, basically. But if we don't have sufficient information, then it's very hard to be a conscious capitalist.

[Host]

Good point. Yeah. You see it with asbestos, right? When they use that in old buildings, they didn't know it was bad for you at the time.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah. But then at the same time there are also plenty of examples of companies literally just being psychopaths. Because also with the asbestos thing, there was a period of time, so there was a period of time they didn't know it was bad, but then they did find out it was bad and then funded a bunch of research that was basically just false, false, you know, bullshit research that said it's safe.

[Host]

Geez.

[Liv Boeree]

Yes.

[Host]

And that's what I feel like they're Doing now still?

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah, I mean, like, so like 3M the big. I mean, they make all sorts of stuff.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Liv Boeree]

But there's a, like they recently got, I think a 10 billion fine for obfuscating the fact that PFAs, which are this like forever chemicals, are. Don't break down and are just now everywhere. And they kind of like tried to cover that up and get away with it. So. Geez, it's, it's a combination. I think conscious capitalism helps for sure. But at the same time, there are always going to be a fraction of people who are with a lot of power in companies who are psychopaths because.

[Host]

They just see it as a fine, like it's business, you know what I mean? It's a percentage of their revenue.

[Liv Boeree]

Right. And, and the thing is, is if you think about like an actual corporate structure, it has one goal or a couple of goals. Yeah. It's like satisfy investors, like they are fiscally bound to do it. They legally have to. But that means that they are directly incentivized to cut whatever corners they can as long as they can get away with it.

[Host]

Right.

[Liv Boeree]

It's pretty psychopathic if you think about it.

[Host]

People's health are being ruined. I mean, look at, look at birth control, look at all these medications kids are being put on. It's terrible.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah. But then at the same time, that same process does also drive a lot of great stuff. Like capitalism has driven, you know, solar panels so, you know, more efficient energy production that's cleaner, etc. So it's, it's, it's. Both cases are true. So again, it's like, how do we design, how do we improve information so that, like, people can be more aware of the potential harms of what they're building, but then also design the incentives so that those who cut corners get actually really punished for it as quickly as possible and disincentivized.

[Host]

What do you think the punishment should be?

[Liv Boeree]

Oh, that's being on my pay grade. Yeah, I think it varies. It depends.

[Host]

The baby powder one is nuts.

[Liv Boeree]

What's that?

[Host]

Seen that one with Johnson Johnson?

[Liv Boeree]

No.

[Host]

Baby powder causing, like all these diseases. Yeah. Look into that one.

[Liv Boeree]

Oh, boy.

[Host]

Because a lot of parents use that on their babies. That's awful and it's terrible. I didn't know about the microplastic in the kid's brain. That's a new one to me.

[Liv Boeree]

Well, so, I mean, it's, it's just a new study that was going around on Twitter yesterday. Um, I mean, I think it's a preprint so it's like, I'm sure that, I'm sure it's not as bad as the headlines are making out to be. But it found that of the brains that were studied, half a percent of them by weight was microplastic, was plastic.

[Host]

Crap.

[Liv Boeree]

So 1 200th of the brain's mass was plastic.

[Host]

That's nuts.

[Liv Boeree]

I mean, that seems so crazy to me. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some kind of error. But the point is the real number should be 0 or as close to 0 as possible because like the brain is such a delicate organ. Like it's, and once something's in there, it's almost impossible to get out. And so if microplastics are able to cross the blood brain barrier, that's a huge problem.

[Host]

That's scary.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah.

[Host]

I mean, look at the rates of all these, you know, autism rates and young babies. Now. There's, there must be a link.

[Liv Boeree]

I mean, yeah, we, it's, it's so complex, it's hard to like pin it down. All we know is that we're, we, you know, we are drastically changing our environment through all these different chemicals and, and new technologies faster than we can figure out whether it matters that we're changing the environment and that's what matters.

[Host]

Right.

[Liv Boeree]

You know, I think a lot of these things aren't actually probably going to be as bad as think they are. Some of them are going to be much worse for us than we think we are. But the point is, it's like we shouldn't be just blindly running these experiments because that's essentially what you're doing. Like we're running. You know, I know there's still like a ton of debate about whether how much, you know, how much CO2 changes the atmosphere. And we do know that we have been increasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. But it's like, why run such a huge experiment where we just don't know? Like why take, you know, you're just making a huge gamble with very clear, unclear long term impact. Let me start that again. You know, you're just making a very high stakes gamble on behalf of everybody.

[Host]

Right.

[Liv Boeree]

You know, this is what concerns me about AI development as well. Now there's a lot of very great people working in these, in the big AI companies who are very responsible, but at the same time, like these companies are all in a big race with each other to get there first. You know, who can be the first to build AGI? And again, like, so they're under maximum pressure to Cut whatever corners they can. And that's a very dangerous situation, generally speaking.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Liv Boeree]

But at the same time, AI also, it's not like it's pure downside. Like there's so many amazing things that can come from it. So it's like, how do we design the incentives such that they race really fast on the stuff that we know is low risk but very high reward, but not the potentially dangerous things. So it's like we want to accelerate defensive type stuff and be very careful on the possibly offensive things that can be weaponized.

[Host]

Yeah, that makes sense. I've seen Elon talk about AI and how it could be used in the wrong way. He was really scared about how open AI was going, right?

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah, yeah. I mean he's been someone who's been talking about it for a decade or more concerned about the various risks. You know, I think another thing that people don't you hear a lot about, like, oh, risk of extinction, you know, like the classic sort of Terminator.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Liv Boeree]

AI gone rogue. And I think that's definitely a non zero chance of that.

[Host]

Really?

[Liv Boeree]

Oh, yeah. I mean it's a possibility. We just don't know. Right. We're building just if you look through history, whenever like a more powerful species comes up against a weaker species, typically that weaker species doesn't do so well or, you know, more powerful or smarter or technologically capable tribe. You know, when the Europeans landed in North America, didn't work out so well for the natives. Right. So generally speaking, the more capable species has an advantage over the weaker one. And so that may apply with AI. There's, there's reasons why it might not, but there's also then this like, it basically like raises the risk of everything from like the risk of tyranny because like, you know, a powerful, power hungry, tyrannical government who wants to just do mass surveillance on everybody and prevent them from doing any, you know, preventing people's freedom. Like they could be empowered by AI or a terrorist cell who wants to cause max chaos and just kill everyone. They could also be empowered by AI. So it, there's, there's so many different clusters of risks with it. That's why it just needs to be done extremely carefully. But at the same time, we need, I think there are many parts of the like life that we definitely need AI's help with. There's so many, like it can help us find new means of clean energy production, it can help us cure cancer, it can help us do so many of these things. So the question is like, how do we Minimize those risks while also because it is a risk by not allowing those things to happen too.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Liv Boeree]

So it's just a. We're just in the most high stakes stage of history ever. Basically. It's an exciting time to be alive.

[Host]

It is, it is.

[Liv Boeree]

So that's kind of why I gave up poker, because I wanted to think about this stuff more.

[Host]

Going full circle now. Wow, that was a long answer. The first question. Yeah, A.I. man. My dentist uses A.I. isn't that crazy cool? He took photos of my teeth, put it into the AI showed me all my cavities. I had a couple gum infections.

[Liv Boeree]

Amazing.

[Host]

All with AI.

[Liv Boeree]

That's. Yeah, that's. That's the thing. Like I, I'm so excited about the idea of like AI empowered doctors, you know, like, because especially like things I saw a study about like they trained an AI on looking at cancerous versus non cancerous moles and it's. Its accuracy rate was significantly higher than, you know, a well trained human eye.

[Host]

Wow.

[Liv Boeree]

So again, it's just like, it's amazing. What? What? Yeah, I think I, I just. The world in 10 years, I think is going to be a simultaneous, I don't know, simultaneously amazing but also precarious place.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Liv Boeree]

Unless we can figure out how to like, you know, as I say, like temper these risks of the, of the scary stuff. So we just have the upsides.

[Host]

You building a bunker on the side?

[Liv Boeree]

No.

[Host]

You're not one of those doomsday.

[Liv Boeree]

No, I mean I. A little scared. Part of me finds that appealing for sure. But I don't think it would like that Nothing is written. There is so much we can all do to help make the world better. And I don't know, I like, I, I don't like these people who are like, oh, we're definitely doomed or, or we're definitely going to be okay. Like, there's just so much uncertainty and things are getting more and more uncertain.

[Host]

Right.

[Liv Boeree]

So all we can do is like embrace that uncertainty and like be like, look it in the face and be like, okay, I don't know, I can. But that doesn't mean you then should just give up and be like, well, nothing matters. Things still matter. So you just like have to really do a lot. I don't know, it's getting more and more into like soul searching. Like what matters to us, you know, me personally, to you personally, how can I make more of that? How can I enrich the people around me and so on? So I don't know.

[Host]

Going back to community, it sounds like right like local communities.

[Liv Boeree]

And it's interesting, I think there was a lot of people certainly like the people I know around after Covid, so so many people. Like, I just want to build like a. Build a village, you know, I don't want to live in a big city anymore. I want to go somewhere with all my friends and build a community, perhaps because almost it's like our communities have been replaced by digital community, which in some ways is great because you get connected to anyone around the world who thinks in a similar way to you.

[Host]

Right.

[Liv Boeree]

It's awesome. But I do wonder at what cost that comes where we don't spend as much time. You know, like, it used to be that you'd walk out your house and you'd walk down the road to buy some milk or some bread or something, and now you can literally just click and it will arrive to your house and you don't even have to like, look the person in the eye who brings it to you.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Liv Boeree]

It's not clear to me that that's a good thing. Overall. It definitely makes the world more efficient, but does it make it happier?

[Host]

Interesting. Yeah. They should do some studies on that.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah. I think, you know, there's. There's like efficiency can be good up to a point and then after a certain point it actually starts being negative.

[Host]

When things are too easy, just.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah. Or at least like it's just. It becomes too alien. Like ultimately we evolved to be happiest when we were in a community of people somewhere around. Underneath the Dunbar number, you know, like underneath the. The number of which we know everyone's name. And that's. We evolved in little tribes where we sort of were all interconnected and depended on each other and like laugh together and had, you know, it was multi generational and so on. And if we, if we sway too far away from that, I wonder if I. I worry that it. It will make us sad and detached and kind of forget what we really are.

[Host]

I could see that because if you look at all the blue zones, the five blue zones, all five of them have community incorporated into their lifestyle.

[Liv Boeree]

What are the blue zones?

[Host]

It's centenarian. So average age is like 100 years old. Oh, five around the world. But a big part of their lifestyle is community.

[Liv Boeree]

Right.

[Host]

So I could definitely see that loneliness is a killer.

[Liv Boeree]

It's awful.

[Host]

Awful. I used to be pretty lonely and I saw it kill a lot of people. I know, really just being lonely.

[Liv Boeree]

What did you do to get out of it?

[Host]

It was in college. I just locked myself in my Room for, like, almost a year and just slowly started going to events and stuff. It was hard. Forgot how to talk to people.

[Liv Boeree]

I think that happened to a lot of people during COVID Oh, yeah. And some just never got back out of it.

[Host]

No. Yeah, that was a rough time. Were you here during that or in the uk?

[Liv Boeree]

I was kind of in both, actually. I. I was. Yeah. And I was there, like, for the first half of the 2020, and then managed to come out and then was here. And it was interesting. Like, the. The. I went through actually a winter in the UK where it was, like, full lockdown. You weren't allowed to go see your family for Christmas. Damn, that was rough. Yeah, that was really, really rough because that's just like the one time of the year my family all get together and we kind of were like, waving at each other through zoom. It was dark, especially. It was like. Also it was like, dark outside for, like, most of the day because it's the UK and winter, which is miserable. Um, yeah, it was really tough. Just shows and what again, like, there's so many young people now who are, like, growing up in that lifestyle because it's easier to. Again, like, it's. You can talk to your friends. Technically you have some kind of proxy of socialization through texting with each other or FaceTime or whatever. But there's something that happens when you're, like, sitting down with someone, like, face to face, and you can touch them and you can look them in the eyes. There's some kind of information going back to, like, energies. Like, yeah, maybe we're exchanging some form of energy. We don't understand some form of information just by being in each other's presence. Like, I notice when I do a. I do some podcasts, remote and some in person, and I. The ones in person are just always so much better.

[Host]

Way better.

[Liv Boeree]

Just like there's something else. There's something tangible that gets made that you can. Like your body is picking up on or something. Yeah. So it's like, how do we help young people who maybe not never known the difference? Like, my generation is probably one of the last that really, like, I. The world didn't go fully digital for me until I was like, 22. So I had, like, most of my formative years, like, in meat space.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Liv Boeree]

And then I became a, you know, digital. Digital inhabitant. But yeah, like, for kids who are just growing up purely in this.

[Host]

Yeah, it's real tough.

[Liv Boeree]

And then they're gonna have kids, like, they don't even have parents who know.

[Host]

Yeah. By then they'll be in the metaverse. They won't care about their physical bodies.

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah, but I mean, who knows? Maybe. Maybe we're. If we can evolve fast enough such that it doesn't matter, then. Okay, fine. I'm open to that being a possibly okay thing, but yeah, let's see what happens.

[Host]

We'll look back at the show 25 years from now and see if we were right or wrong. Yeah, let's do it. It's been fun. Where can people find you in your podcast?

[Liv Boeree]

Yeah, so mainly on my YouTube, which is if you just search win win with Livebury, win dash win. Yeah, that's the main place. But I'm prolific on Twitter. X, whatever it's called Instagram.

[Host]

I still call it Twitter.

[Liv Boeree]

I can't. I can't undo it.

[Host]

Like, yeah, I can't get over it.

[Liv Boeree]

Also, you can't search like you Google X. You're not going to necessarily find it. It's a bad SEO.

[Host]

Yeah. Love it. We'll link your. Your ex below and your other socials. Thanks for coming on.

[Liv Boeree]

Thanks for having me.

[Host]

Yeah, thanks for watching, guys. See you next time.

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