Host (2:34)

It's a process. We just paid off my fiance student loans, and I wanted to get rid of it ASAP because the interest and just the anxiety from it, a lot of students are still having loans into their 30s and 40s.

Erica O'Donnell (2:44)

Listen, we just paid off our student loans not long ago. My husband and I mean, we're grateful that we have had the opportunity to use them because we've been able to be successful. But certainly we had a mission from growing up in poverty, both of us, that we needed to have jobs that actually helped us pay back our student loans. Unfortunately, so many students are taking out loans and they're getting degrees in areas that aren't going to give them a return on their investment, then they can't pay them back. And the taxpayers are the ones who are putting the bill.

Host (3:11)

Absolutely. Do you think tuition prices with most universities is too high right now?

Erica O'Donnell (3:15)

Absolutely. And that's from subsidizing from the government, just like health care prices are too high. Why? Because it's not paid by you and I as consumers. We don't pay directly, students don't pay directly. And so therefore, you have inflation of prices and then you have a misallocation of those resources. So a physics degree is the same cost as an art degree or a gender studies degree that does not pay and give you the same return on investment. I would like to see the private sector back in student loans and giving loans to students based on the return that they will get from that degree and their ability to pay it back when they get a job in the private sector. And so we'll see if that happens. I hope so. And President Trump has certainly made some promises to the American people. I know that he will want to keep them. And Secretary McMahon, if she's confirmed, will be on that mission. But it also requires some cooperation from Congress. And we know that's going to be.

Host (4:10)

A challenge, and that's been an issue this week on the CR stuff.

Erica O'Donnell (4:12)

Needless to say, you know, the government's staying open, but I think it's going to reverberate to see how much of Trump's agenda is actually going to be able to get done if Congress is going to operate this way.

Host (4:23)

Yeah, I remember my brother went to Rutgers and It was about 7,000 a year at the time in state I went 10 years later it was about 14. So it doubled in 10 years.

Erica O'Donnell (4:33)

Did the value of that degree double in 10 years?

Host (4:37)

No.

Erica O'Donnell (4:37)

Right?

Host (4:38)

Not even close. It probably didn't even go up at all, to be honest, because inflation never matches the salary increases exactly.

Erica O'Donnell (4:44)

And so I think not just in higher education, but K12 where I'm really passionate about school choice. We need free market principles at work in both our K12 and our higher education environments. And that's where you're going to see lower prices, more innovation, higher quality and more accessibility for the greater number of people. We don't see that in either space right now. And that's why, you know, America was founded on capitalism, on free market principles. But we don't have that in education. And that's why we don't see the quality that we deserve as Americans.

Host (5:17)

Yeah. So you want more power back in the states?

Erica O'Donnell (5:19)

Back in the states, but most importantly in the hands of consumers, which are the parents. Parents need to have the agency and that means the funding and the ability to direct those resources where they see fit with.

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Erica O'Donnell (7:14)

They see a value for their children to get not only the best education in terms of academic performance, but we see a lot of families opting out of the public schools because of safety concerns, because of misalignment with their values at home. And they should be able to make that decision for their children. But we need to put those funds in the hands of parents to be able to vote with their feet. Really.

Host (7:36)

What are your thoughts on homeschooling?

Erica O'Donnell (7:37)

I love homeschooling. I love that parents can be empowered to homeschool. And I want to see that given more opportunity. In Florida we have an amazing program because we have universal school choice and universal education scholarship accounts. Homeschool families can now access what we're calling a personalized education plan. They get eight to $9,000 and they can use that to buy their curriculum to add additional tutoring or other services. They can even pay for sports. My son who learns at home in our the world's first VR school, that's Optima Ed and we should definitely talk more about that. So he learns in VR in most of his courses, but then I pay for him to be a homeschool extension student and do sports at a local private school. So he really gets the best of both worlds. He can do his clubs and sports amongst other students at a private school and learn at home, which is where he learns best.

Host (8:27)

Wow. I need to learn more about this VR school. I never heard of that before.

Erica O'Donnell (8:31)

Optima Academy Online is the world's first virtual reality school. We're in our third year. This is, you're really the pride of what I have done with school choice because we're in 13 different states where public funding is now available for students to take courses in virtual reality. And it's all classical tradition, traditional education, but it's accredited so students can go to our courses. They're going to earn credit for it towards graduation. It's K to 12. But the best thing about it is the immersive style of education and young people get it right away. You know, if you're learning about the lunar landing, where better to learn it from? Standing on the moon with your classmates? Magic school bus style. If you're learning about ancient Rome, you can go there. You can be there while you're learning about it.

Host (9:16)

That's cool.

Erica O'Donnell (9:17)

One of my favorite demonstrations we do is about the water cycle where we have a group project which not everyone likes, but these girls are spawning a cloud and the rain and moving the cloud over the mountains and showing in three dimensions with the assets that we've built, the water cycle. How much more they're going to remember the water cycle than if they're filling it out on a ditto sheet. Right. Or filling in the blank somewhere. So that immersive learning that virtual reality provides is really transforming education. I'm really excited about it because a.

Host (9:46)

Lot of people are visual learners.

Erica O'Donnell (9:48)

Yes. And. Or they. They learn by experiencing.

Host (9:52)

Right.

Erica O'Donnell (9:52)

And you won't forget it when you travel to that location. In fact, when my oldest son went to Greece as one of his senior trips and he was showing us the pictures of the Parthenon and other areas of Greece, and my son who'd been there in VR, he's like, oh, I've been there. I've been there in VR.

Host (10:08)

I love it.

Erica O'Donnell (10:08)

It gave me chills. Because when you are immersed in that environment until you put on a headset and actually experience it, it's really hard to explain to people. But you feel like you've been there. You feel like you've been with other people when you've been with other people in VR versus Zoom school, where it's a checkerboard of faces. So optimaacademy online people can learn more. You can see if your state covers the cost of the tuition, but otherwise it's very aff.

Host (10:31)

Yeah. We'll link it below. I'm in Nevada right now and I'm planning on having kids. I think we ranked 49th in education.

Erica O'Donnell (10:37)

You know, it's terrible because so many states are just not living up to their responsibility to provide a high quality education to every family. And I just don't think it's the state to be able to do that. It's the free market, it's innovators. It's people like you, young people that come up with great ideas that are going to be the educators of tomorrow, not because you have a teaching degree but but because you have a passion for your own children or for a particular subject area that you want to teach.

Host (11:02)

Right.

Erica O'Donnell (11:03)

And I can see apps now going forward where parents are going to go on there and customize their child's education. Let's say my child is struggling in math. I want them to have a one on one experience for math and I'm going to use some of my dollars for that. But you know, they're so curious about history. They really don't need a teacher. They're going to learn by just reading and exploring and learning themselves. So I don't have to spend a lot of money on history. Right now we require every parent to spend the same amount on every subject and have them all learn the same way based on really where they live. And in a monopolistic system that is not innovative and it's simply just not working.

Host (11:36)

Absolutely.

Erica O'Donnell (11:37)

And we've got to end that.

Host (11:38)

I'd rather learn from a specialist in the topic I care about than a DEI hire.

Erica O'Donnell (11:42)

Oh, absolutely. And what we want to see too is meritocracy back in education when it comes to teaching. You know, the greatest teachers don't get rewarded for being great teachers in our monopolistic system. And that's America's way. We want great teachers to get paid what they deserve, which is far more than the average teacher makes. Unfortunately, teachers unions don't make that possible for us. But school choice does make it possible because it empowers even educators to get out there and achieve their own dream of teaching, maybe in a different and innovative way.

Host (12:11)

Right. So teacher unions are underpaying teachers.

Erica O'Donnell (12:14)

Oh yes. So they drive the payment of teachers and the salaries of teachers and it's to the lowest common denominator because they're protecting the lower performing teachers at the expense of higher performing teachers. They want everyone to be treated the same, not just in how they perform, but the subject areas that we teach. We talked earlier about maybe physics versus art. It takes a higher level of skill to teach some of those higher level courses. But teachers unions require that all of them get paid in the same manner. And that's just not the American way. It shouldn't be an education going forward. If we want to track top talent to teach our kids some of these hard to staff areas, we're going to have to be able to compensate them appropriately.

Host (12:55)

Absolutely. I want to get away from the memory based teaching.

Erica O'Donnell (12:59)

You know, rote learning has gotten somewhat of a bad rap in the way that it's been implemented in today's classrooms. But knowledge is important and there's a difference. Right. Memorization versus learning the true history of our country requires you to not memorize necessarily, but learn about our history and when things happen and why they happen and who they happened with and too. Right. And how that built our culture. And so when something is memorized for the sake of memorization, I would agree with you. But when it is learned for the sake of understanding the history and having a basis of knowledge from which to attract, to comprehend new information that comes on, that's a different story. And so I think teachers who don't want to have this rote memorization in their classroom, you're going about it the wrong way. What we want is a knowledge rich, culture rich education that will empower you to succeed no matter what you encounter in the future. Because you have all the knowledge of what has come before.

Host (13:58)

Yeah.

Erica O'Donnell (13:59)

And that's what a classical and a traditional education brings to you.

Host (14:02)

How do you feel about the SATs? Because that's like a really necessary test for college, right?

Erica O'Donnell (14:07)

Yeah. As far as the SAT itself or the ACT itself, unfortunately, they've gone sort of woke. They have unnecessary infusion of culture wars in their test questions and value based questions. I don't agree with that at all. I don't agree with their monopoly. I'm actually on the advisory board for the classical learning test, which is trying to bring another option. I think there should be a wide variety of standardized tests for schools and parents to choose from so that they know how their students are performing. I'm actually a big believer in accountability, but accountability through transparency. And that means that, yes, we should ensure that students are taking standardized tests so you know how they're doing compared to other students around the state, around the country, or in their own class. If you, your child is in a class of third graders and they, you take a standardized test and yours is performing lower than everyone in their class, you'd go, wait a second, what's going on? Right. Or if that entire class is performing lower than the rest of the school, well, you look at the teacher and go, you know what's happening here? It provides you the information that you need. However, it's been weaponized in numerous ways. One, by people who want to say that their schools are performing better than they are. In New York, they just lowered the standards for their standardized tests so that they can say, oh, they're performing great, look, well, the standards are lower. So I think that parents need to be empowered with information through standardized testing and colleges even through with information. But there definitely needs to be more of a free market even in the testing arena. The SAT and ACT kind of have, have enjoyed pretty cornered market there. But I would love to see more tests come into the marketplace that you have a variety of options to choose from of where your student test. And one of those is classical learning test which is actually exploding. Really many more colleges are accepting that.

Host (15:55)

Is it a super long Test like the SAT is 4 hours?

Erica O'Donnell (15:58)

It is a pretty long test, just like you know, the SAT and ACT because it's measuring your college level, you know, readiness for college. And so that's what those tests are for. I think it's interesting in many states that it doesn't. You don't require a standardized test to even graduate. Massachusetts for example, just got rid of their high school test. So how do you know that the students have. The grades have been inflated since COVID We know that. How do you know that the students that are graduating actually have that basic level of skills without some sort of standardized test to tell you that? So I do think that they have a role, but we need to be very careful about what their role is.

Host (16:35)

Absolutely. I feel for these kids with TikTok brand these days taking these four hour tests. I barely made it and I caught the tail end of.

Erica O'Donnell (16:42)

I have three boys, 21, 17 and 13. And progressively obviously those generations have more and more of been the TikTok generation with less and less attention span. And it's difficult because as a parent you don't want to hold on to what's always been. Well, you can't be like this because we weren't that way. You have to have attention like we had. I don't, I believe in innovation. So I want to be careful about saying that you, you have to be a certain way because it's always been that way. At the same time, we see the impact of the shorter attention spans when it comes to student performance and their ability to really focus on things and perform. And I think it remains to be seen how that truly affects us going forward.

Host (17:23)

Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. It's getting worse. Our attention span is shorter than a goldfish now. Three seconds.

Erica O'Donnell (17:30)

Well, yeah, it's unfortunate and it definitely poses a challenge for teachers.

Host (17:35)

Yeah.

Erica O'Donnell (17:35)

And all the more reason again why we need to empower educators to be able to innovate in the classroom and teach today's students because they're doing the same thing that they've been doing the last hundred years in the Classroom, it's not working. And we need innovation. And the only way to spark innovation is through free market.

Host (17:51)

And that was a big issue with me at Rutgers in Jersey. My classroom sizes had 300 people in some of them. So there's no one on one.

Erica O'Donnell (17:58)

Right.

Host (17:59)

And we're learning out of textbooks. We're learning about outdated stuff and marketing. It needs to be innovated.

Erica O'Donnell (18:04)

Yeah. Immersive education is the way to go too.

Host (18:06)

Yeah. Like it needs to be a more like hands on, natural approach. Because I was scared to even ask a question because there's so many people.

Erica O'Donnell (18:13)

There that you know. And in higher education there's more of a free market because you're not assigned to Rutgers. Right. You could have chosen Holy Cross where my son went, where they have very small class sizes if that was what was important to you. Unfortunately, in K12, it doesn't matter, you know, where you what, what type of environment you think you learn best in small class sizes. More innovative, less innovative. You have to go where you're assigned based on your geography, which is usually based on your income. And unfortunately that is not working, especially for the most disadvantaged students in our country. And we have to work to change that. We started the conversation about Donald Trump and changing and eliminating the Department of Education when they do that. What I would like to see is that those funds from the federal level are put into the hands of parents who those funds were supposed to help in the first place. And they're not low income students. For example, Title 1 funds are supposed to go to the low income students to help them with the additional disadvantages that they have from where they come from. It's not happening. We want to put those hands of those funds in the hands of those parents and let the parents use it for the additional services that they need to make sure that their kids are able to succeed.

Host (19:24)

I think it'd be way better spent that way, right?

Erica O'Donnell (19:26)

Oh, absolutely. As a parent. And you'll find out when you're a parent, no one cares about my kids success more than me.

Host (19:31)

Yeah.

Erica O'Donnell (19:33)

And the teachers in the classroom, they care. That's why they're teaching. They're not doing it for the money, but they care about 25 kids. I care about my three kids. I will do anything for them. And even parents who are lower income may not be as educated as I am. They care as much as I do about their kids and their success and they're going to find the resources that they need to make those children successful if they feel like they have an option Right now the school system is telling them we don't need your help. You don't have any options anyway. So just send your kid on the bus to us and we'll take care of it. Well, they're not taking care of it. And so these parents need to be empowered not just with money but with, we need to send the message to them as well. You are the primary educator of your child so you need to fight for them. You need to tell the school what you think that they need to be doing. If you need to, you need to go to a school board meeting and speak up there. And more and more parents are getting that message. It's really exciting.

Host (20:26)

Yeah, I can't wait to see the times change because right now a lot of parents are living paycheck to paycheck so they can't afford other options. Right. For their kids. But as it gets cheaper and cheaper.

Erica O'Donnell (20:34)

Yes, an increasing economy which we believe is going to continue to happen over under Donald Trump and in his economy is going to allow parents again also not to have to work more jobs, not to be as stressed and be able to pay attention to their family. It's a part of a good economy that people don't always talk about. You know, you talk about the money aspect but the family aspect and the impact on your family that the stress of money troubles has, that cannot be measured.

Host (21:02)

Absolutely. Erica, what's next for you? Where can people support you?

Erica O'Donnell (21:04)

Well, I've got some news coming up in the new year so Erica Donalds on all social media, Erica with a K, no C. Hopefully people will tune in to find out out what we're going to do. All about education, school choice, empowering parents and, and really breaking down that bureaucracy, especially at the federal level and bringing free market back into education. So follow me at Erica Donalds and you'll find out.

Host (21:25)

Thanks for coming on.

Erica O'Donnell (21:26)

Thank you so much guys.

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