Scaling to 8 Figures: Eric Siu's Unconventional Method | Eric Siu DSH #1095

Summary

Digital Social Hour: Scaling to 8 Figures with Eric Siu | Episode #1095

Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Eric Siu
Release Date: January 13, 2025

---

Introduction to Eric Siu and His Journey

Timestamp: 01:02 - 03:20

Sean Kelly welcomes Eric Siu, a prominent figure in the marketing podcasting sphere, known for his dynamic approaches to scaling businesses. Their conversation kicks off with a nostalgic look back at Eric's transition from gaming to business.

Eric Siu shares:

“I can't play games anymore because anytime I start playing a game, like I tried playing Diablo 3... business is the ultimate game.”
(01:16)

He reflects on how his passion for gaming evolved into a relentless focus on business, likening entrepreneurship to a high-stakes game where strategy and execution determine success.

---

Embracing AI in Business Operations

Timestamp: 03:27 - 10:22

The discussion shifts to the integration of Artificial Intelligence (AI) in business, highlighting Eric's ventures with Bolt and the development of AI agents to streamline SEO tasks.

Eric Siu explains:

“We're building these AI agents that will automatically just do a lot of the SEO tasks like internal linking, fighting content to update and all that stuff.”
(03:27)

Sean expresses fascination with the advancements in AI, prompting Eric to delve deeper into practical applications:

“You get like there, you're basically prompting an app and it pops out an app.”
(04:52)

They explore various AI tools, including ChatGPT's versatility for personal and business use, from managing workouts to drafting contracts. Eric emphasizes the transformative potential of AI in reducing operational burdens and enhancing efficiency.

---

Scaling Through Acquisitions and Building Platforms

Timestamp: 11:12 - 20:27

Eric outlines his strategy for scaling businesses by acquiring other agencies and building a robust platform. He demystifies the misconception that agencies are non-scalable, illustrating how aggregated profits from multiple acquisitions can exponentially increase business value.

Eric Siu states:

“If you get an agency to $5 million in profit, you can actually sell it for maybe 10x on the profit or a 15x or 20x in some cases.”
(12:43)

Sean probes into the nuances of this approach, and Eric underscores the importance of focus over diversification:

“The grass is greener where you water it.”
(28:35)

He discusses the scalability of agency models and contrasts them with other business types, emphasizing long-term commitment and consistent growth as keys to building multi-million-dollar enterprises.

---

The Evolving Podcast Landscape

Timestamp: 14:39 - 22:33

The conversation transitions to the podcasting industry, where both Sean and Eric share insights on its saturation and future prospects. Eric reflects on his 13-year podcasting journey, highlighting the enduring value of relationships and the continuous benefits derived from consistent content creation.

Eric Siu mentions:

“Podcasts are great... I've made lifelong friends from it. I've gotten deals from it.”
(14:38)

Sean and Eric discuss the rise of podcast valuations, citing examples like "Call Me Daddy" and "The Joe Rogan Experience," and ponder whether the market is experiencing a bubble or if it's laying the foundation for sustained growth. They conclude that despite saturation, podcasts remain a potent medium for genuine, long-form conversations that resonate with audiences.

---

Balancing Business Ambition and Personal Growth

Timestamp: 22:33 - 37:18

Eric and Sean delve into the personal aspects of entrepreneurship, discussing the balance between business pursuits and personal life. Eric emphasizes the significance of maintaining strong relationships and managing personal well-being alongside business growth.

Eric Siu advises:

“What matters is... what they've done on their merit.”
(32:34)

They explore themes of personal finance, community building, and the importance of focusing on what truly drives long-term success and fulfillment. Eric shares his perspective on financial milestones, suggesting that achieving a liquid net worth of around $50 million is sufficiently empowering without the relentless pursuit of ever-increasing wealth.

---

The Importance of Focus and Mastery

Timestamp: 37:18 - 41:56

Continuing the theme of focus, Eric recounts his experiences of shutting down underperforming ventures to concentrate on core strengths. He highlights the dangers of overextending oneself across multiple projects and the value of honing in on a single business trajectory to maximize growth and impact.

Eric Siu reflects:

“The grass is greener where you water it.”
(28:35)

He advocates for an "AI first" mindset, where leveraging technology to enhance business operations is paramount. This approach not only streamlines processes but also frees up resources to invest in strategic growth areas, ensuring sustained scalability and success.

---

Concluding Thoughts and Future Endeavors

Timestamp: 41:56 - 42:14

As the episode wraps up, Sean and Eric discuss upcoming projects and opportunities to connect. Eric promotes his podcasts "Marketing School" and "Leveling Up," inviting listeners to engage with his content across various platforms.

Eric Siu concludes:

“Hit me at Eric Osiu and then marketing school and leveling up would be the two podcasts but on Twitter, on Instagram, those will be the spots.”
(41:56)

Sean expresses gratitude for Eric's insights and encourages listeners to check out the episode for a deeper understanding of scaling businesses to eight figures through unconventional methods.

---

Key Takeaways

1. Entrepreneurship as a Game: Viewing business as a strategic game can drive relentless focus and innovation.
2. AI Integration: Leveraging AI tools can significantly enhance operational efficiency and scalability.
3. Strategic Acquisitions: Building a platform through the acquisition of multiple agencies can exponentially increase business value.
4. Podcasting Value: Despite market saturation, podcasts remain a valuable medium for building relationships and generating business opportunities.
5. Focus and Mastery: Concentrating on core strengths and avoiding overextension are crucial for long-term business success.
6. Balanced Growth: Maintaining personal well-being and strong relationships is essential alongside ambitious business pursuits.

---

Notable Quotes

• Eric Siu: “Business is the ultimate game.”
  (01:16)

• Eric Siu: “The grass is greener where you water it.”
  (28:35)

• Sean Kelly: “I've changed my stance on it. I used to not want kids. I used to just be all about making money. But now I want kids.”
  (36:10)

• Eric Siu: “Friend friends will stick with you.”
  (35:12)

---

Connect with Eric Siu

• Podcasts:

  • Marketing School
  • Leveling Up

• Social Media:

  • Twitter
  • Instagram

---

Stay tuned to Digital Social Hour for more unfiltered conversations with thought leaders and entrepreneurs redefining success in the modern world.

Transcript

[Eric Siu]

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[Sean]

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[Eric Siu]

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[Sean]

Devices early ct, you give up gaming, too. I know you used to play esports.

[Eric Siu]

I can't. I can't play games anymore because anytime I start playing a game, like I tried playing Diablo 3, maybe like when I was 27 or 28.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

Now it's. And I'm just like, I just kept thinking about business. I just like, business is the ultimate game.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

And I think any kid that grows up playing games, like all I was just like, dude, what am I gonna do? What if I can't find a game to play in real life?

[Sean]

All right, guys, we got Eric on the show today. One of the top marketing podcasts. Right?

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. Thanks for having me, Sean.

[Sean]

Absolutely, man. I've been following you for a bit now. So cool to finally meet in person.

[Eric Siu]

We. We crossed back and forth, I think, during all the crypto stuff. But it's great to finally meet you.

[Sean]

Yeah. Crypto market's been. It looks like it might come back, I think.

[Eric Siu]

Hopefully it rips next year. We'll see.

[Sean]

Yeah. Bitcoin's already at 68. Right. So. And people are upset about that.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. I don't know why. It's like, it's close to all time highs.

[Sean]

Yeah. I guess because ETH is a little low, but yeah, we'll see. Next bull run might be a good one.

[Eric Siu]

I think it will rip.

[Sean]

Is that how you made a lot of your money? In crypto?

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. I mean, I'd say the vast majority of my net worth's in business, but I think you know crypto. I don't know if you played a lot. You're Asian. You probably played a lot of games growing up. So did I. Right. So it's just a way of gaming as an entrepreneur now, so.

[Sean]

Yeah. I remember buying crypto in like high school, and if I just kept that. Oh, man.

[Eric Siu]

What year was that?

[Sean]

I was a Junior, so 2014.

[Eric Siu]

Okay. So, yeah, I bought my first bitcoin when I was 2013.

[Sean]

Damn.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, and one bitcoin and I sold it when it was 2000.

[Sean]

Paper hands.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Oh, man. You went the full route. Academic route. Right.

[Eric Siu]

College degree and everything I did for my parents. Not from me, though.

[Sean]

Same. Yeah, I didn't make it all the way.

[Eric Siu]

Oh, you didn't. Good for you.

[Sean]

Well, here's how I justified. Because Asian mother.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I had to provide some revenue first. So I started a business freshman year. I think it got to like 150k and then I dropped out.

[Eric Siu]

That's great.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. So you proved yourself.

[Sean]

Yeah, but a lot of people want to drop out with nothing, so it's like the risk to reward.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. They're not thinking it through.

[Sean]

Yeah. What did you major in?

[Eric Siu]

History and econ.

[Sean]

Whoa.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, I did that because I wanted to play poker longer. So I stayed one more year extra in high school to play poker longer.

[Sean]

Oh, you were a poker player? Yeah. Damn. History. I've never heard that major.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, it's a total BS major because all I did was go to Wikipedia the day before I needed to turn something in. I just like read it and I wrote something and that was it.

[Sean]

That's hilarious. That was before AI where you can.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now you just use AI.

[Sean]

Yeah. I remember those five page essays in college. Oh my gosh. Now people are writing it in minutes. Are you using AI every day?

[Eric Siu]

Every day, Yeah. I mean, even earlier this week. You've probably heard about it already, but Bolt thought new. We're just using it to build, like front ends and giving it to developers and moving it forward that way. There's some cool things we like. I have an SEO background, but we're building. We're building these AI agents that will automatically just do a lot of the SEO tasks like internal linking, fighting content to update and all that stuff. Right. Just the thankless Work. And we actually had a conversation with the guy that's leading that charge at Microsoft today on the AI agent side. And yeah, there's some exciting stuff happening and we can't wait to see what happens in the next, I don't know, two, three years or so.

[Sean]

Nice. What does Bolt on you do? I haven't heard of that one.

[Eric Siu]

So you've heard of Replit and Cursor?

[Sean]

Cursor, I might have.

[Eric Siu]

Okay, so Cursor is like autocomplete for developers and so when they're coding they just move a lot faster. Replit is like, it's more complex version version of both where you can just say, hey, like yesterday I built something, I was like, hey, help me build an app that allows me to upload audio files and video files and then also allow me to post in a YouTube link. And I want you to come up with five viral headlines and thumbnails for my YouTube. Right. So come up with the best, best concepts for higher click through rates.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Eric Siu]

And it, it coded it all up. I was watching it code it and then it showed me the, the front end for it and it looked exactly like I'd want it to look. And then I might say, hey, change this over here. Or like there might be some bugs and it'll just automatically fix the bugs.

[Sean]

Damn.

[Eric Siu]

So you get like there, you're basically prompting an app and it pops out an app.

[Sean]

So I got to step up my AI game. I'm only using Chat gbt. Yeah, I feel like that's grade level. Right?

[Eric Siu]

Chat GBG is great though. I mean it's like, it can be like a therapist, you can ask questions. Like I ask it to like rate my workouts and everything. It's great. And I like, I use this thing called my body tutor where I have to put in like my workouts and like my, my diet every day. So I take a picture of the food, it's like, hey, tell me what this is and how many calories are in it. And I just cut and paste and I throw it into my body tutor. And then my, my tutor would be like, oh, this is great. This is whatever. Right?

[Sean]

So yeah, that's actually insane. So you could just take a picture of your food and it'll know how many calories.

[Eric Siu]

Yep, yep. And estimates what it is. It's like 95% accurate with guessing what it is. And sometimes I just post like a blob of stuff and it still guesses it. No way. Yeah.

[Sean]

Wow. I need to look into that one.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Did you see the AI chat bots, The Game of Thrones one?

[Eric Siu]

No. What's that?

[Sean]

So there's one that can pretend to be the different characters, and there was 1 Daenerys Targaryen 1. I guess some teenager fell in love with it.

[Eric Siu]

Oh, that's nuts.

[Sean]

And then he committed suicide.

[Eric Siu]

I. I didn't know that one. How long ago was this?

[Sean]

Yesterday or two days ago, maybe.

[Eric Siu]

That's crazy. Yeah, that's setting precedent. It's so. I mean, I think there's going to be bad stuff that happens, but also that I think the good will outweigh the bad. Because when you look at Anthropic this week, they just Attention taxpayers. The IRS is intensifying collections in 2025. If you owe $10,000 or more or have unfiled tax returns, it's time to take action. Tax Network USA's experienced lawyers have saved clients over a billion dollars. They're ready to negotiate with the IRS on your behalf. Don't risk wage garnishment, property seizure or losing your home. Call 1-800-958-1000 today. Get the help you need at 1-800-958-10000 or visit tnusa.com listeners as we go into a new year, we all have a lot on our plates. There are backpacking trips across Europe to plan personal best to crushing the gym and capsule wardrobes to create good thing. Our sponsor, NerdWallet is here to take one thing off your plate. Finding the best financial products. Introducing NerdWallet's 2025 Best of Awards.

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[Eric Siu]

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[Eric Siu]

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[Eric Siu]

Tailored approach to hiring launched a, a thing called computer use.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

And what that allows you to do is it's basically a human that can help you research, like travel plans or Michelin restaurants or whatever. And you see it clicking around. It's basically a very nascent version of an AI agent that will actually act like a human and do work for you. Whoa.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's cool.

[Eric Siu]

And so like, you now have free AI employees, like very basic versions of Nice, I'll say.

[Sean]

Business owners, a lot of money.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

You think you'll get an Elon Musk robot?

[Eric Siu]

Definitely.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

But I won't be the first wave. I think for that you should probably be like the second wave. You don't want to be the earliest adopter, maybe just the second because, like, who knows what all the issues are going to be.

[Sean]

So that's why I didn't get the first Tesla. I waited like five years.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. Same here, same here. Like 2017 or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean]

Around there. Yeah. I had Robbie J. Lu on here yesterday. She's a poker player and she invests in AI companies. And she said there's one company that's providing legal representation to AI because these bots are going to start getting in trouble and need to be represented. Isn't that crazy?

[Eric Siu]

That's smart. I have someone in my, my YPO forum, he actually built something that will help you like, take care of small claims and stuff. So I think there's going to be a lot of like earlier this week, ChatGPT, the chief product officer was saying that, that now you can get a $1,000 an hour brief written for $3 using ChatGPT, and you can use the, the 01 version for that. And so I think we're just going to see the cost for a lot of things come down. And that also the same thing goes for marketing too, that, that computer use thing I was talking about. You can now Use it to, you know, just automatically port things over from your spreadsheets over to your CRM and have it do a bunch of, like, manual work and that you can do with Zapier or something like that. But I just think the possibilities are just going to open up quite a bit.

[Sean]

Yeah, I've saved a ton on legal recently. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Legal. I mean, just contracts and NDAs and all the. Because you got to pay for the contracts.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Like hourly or something.

[Eric Siu]

That's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just upload and say, hey, like, what seems off with this. And I actually use it for contracts too. It's like, hey, what. What could. What could be strengthened about this contract?

[Sean]

Oh, that's smart. No one can screw you over.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean]

Wow. I need to start doing that. Yeah, there's all sorts, even, like on a personal use, just like finding good restaurants. I find podcast guests on it. Like, there's so many ways to use it.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I'm a fan. I'm optimistic. I know some people are like, oh, it's going to take out jobs and stuff, but same with the Internet.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. People will reskill and people will figure it out. I think it'll be fine.

[Sean]

Yeah. Are you implementing it heavily with your agencies?

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. So we are on one side. I mean, the thing I mentioned with SEO, we're just looking at all the jobs to be done for, like, paid media SEO, all the work we do for clients, and then we're just figuring out how we can bring efficiencies or add more efficiencies, and we're just building tools and some will give away for free to generate more, more leads, and then some will just, you know, we'll manage it for our clients and things like that. So I think for us, it's AI first. And like, right now, our cto, he's just building so many products right now, and I'm having more fun than I've had in a long time.

[Sean]

Nice. I love that. And you're at the stage of business where you're actually acquiring others now, right?

[Eric Siu]

Correct.

[Sean]

So that's a whole new.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Part of the business.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, Actually. So Single Grain, which is my agency, I. I bought it when I was 26 years old, and, you know, I. I brokered a deal that way, and then, you know, three years ago or so, we bought two other agencies, and then right now we're in loi with another one. So we're letter of intent trying to buy one in Asia right now.

[Sean]

And what's the thought process behind acquiring These, Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

So most people don't know that agencies are actually like I can't, I come from tech, right. And I like, I used to poop on agencies because it's not scalable. Like you know, it's such a people focused business, whatever. You can't sell it for much money. But most people don't know this. If you get an agency, let's say to $5 million in profit, you can actually sell it for maybe 10x on the profit or a 15x or 20x in some cases. Right. I've actually seen some sell for 20x. So let's say you simple numbers, 5 million in profit times 10 is $50 million. Right? That's a good exit. That's not like a small exit. It could be a hundred million dollars or so. Right. And so what you might do is you can either sell it at that point or you might take your 5 million profit agency and then build a platform. And what that means is you're going to go out there and acquire other agen. Maybe buy 1 million in profit here, 1 million profit, people like to call it Ebitda, whatever. Right. And then maybe you get it to 20 million in EBITDA and maybe you can sell it for 20x on that or maybe like a higher multiple. Right. But you're now selling it for like 4 or $500 million or so. So it's, you're, it's like an arbitrage game that you're playing.

[Sean]

Interesting.

[Eric Siu]

And you know you can play that game if you want or you can, it doesn't cost you a lot of money to start up an agency. Maybe you get it to 500k a year in profit. That's a great business for you. Maybe a million a year in profit. That's great for you, right? There's nothing wrong with that. And so you can decide to play for 10, 20, 30 years or so or you can play it just to cash flow and have a nice life. But you know there's not a lot of capex up front it and you know at the end of the day it can become something really big because the total addressable market is very big for agencies.

[Sean]

That's cool. Yeah. Because there's some huge agencies, right?

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. I mean there's Dentsu, there's wpp, there's Omnicom, these, these are multi billion dollar companies. And then like you have the accentures of the world that have done like I think this year they done. Is it maybe a couple billion dollars or maybe 900 million? That pretty Significant difference. But a lot of money they've done in generative AI. Right. And they're like a consulting company. And so I think, you know, at the end of the day, if these companies can figure it out, then they've outlined a blueprint for people to follow.

[Sean]

Wow. Almost a billion just in AI. That's crazy.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

So that market's growing fast. You think it's a bubble, though?

[Eric Siu]

I think short term it's probably a bubble, and then long term it won't be a bubble. It's just like the Internet back in the day.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

That's how I feel too. I feel like there was so much hype.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

But I think there's going to be a few big players. Like, obviously OpenAI is going to be crushing it.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, we'll see what happens. Started 1 to x AI with Twitter's data or access data. You have anthropic, which I just talked about. Yeah, there's a lot of. I mean, Google is obviously a player too, so. Yeah, I don't think there's going to be. I mean, obviously llama with Facebook. I don't think there's going to be any, like, one winner. I think there's going to be a lot of different players.

[Sean]

Yeah. I'm starting to see that llama1 on Instagram DMs. When I message someone, it's like their AI talking to me.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean]

Have you seen that yet?

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, yeah. There's that little search bar. I don't think. I mean, I think they're kind of cheating there and calling that active users because they're just taking all the users from their apps that sometimes, like accidentally search in that bar. But I think, you know, I think we'll see much more sophisticated versions of, like, many chat people have been using many chat and chatbots and things like that.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

So, yeah.

[Sean]

Where are you at with podcasts? How do you feel about the podcast market? There's networks right now starting up.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. I think podcasts, I mean, I've been doing it for like, holy crap, 13 years. I think I've been podcasting for 13 years. And I had. So I have two. I have marketing school and I have leveling up, and it's just a gift that keeps on giving. I mean, you've been doing it, you've seen the benefits, the people that you meet, the relationships that you create from it. I've made lifelong friends from it. I've gotten deals from it. It's just been good across the board. And now the Cool thing is like, oh, short form came on the last couple years and so I don't know about you, but most people now, when they like when I'm like talking at a conference, if someone comes up to me it's usually like, oh, I watch your shorts or I watch your YouTube or whatever. It's not like I used to blog a lot. It's not, oh, I came from your blog.

[Sean]

Agreed.

[Eric Siu]

So I think like, to me, the biggest opportunity in next 10 years with social is YouTube. But like, what do you see mostly on YouTube and the shorts and things like that? It's podcasts.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

And so this, to me, like, this is why Mr. B said this is OP like two years ago. Right. Because we can just have a conversation and there will be bites where we have something that, that goes viral and, and great. Like, I don't know if that's gonna go away because people like hearing interesting things.

[Sean]

Yeah. And people's attention spans are so short these days.

[Eric Siu]

But I do think there's just, I think it's getting a little saturated now because you have, you have like. And there's nothing wrong with these people. Right. But you have like NFL players starting podcasts, ex NBA players starting podcasts. You have like the hawk to a girl starting a podcast. Right. And don't get me wrong, they're probably good, they probably all have an angle. But at a certain point it's like, if everyone has a podcast, then what do we do?

[Sean]

Almost everyone I know does, to be honest.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Or if they don't, they go on a lot of shows, so you're already seeing them. But yeah, it's definitely saturated. It's been saturated though. Even when I started, I was late.

[Eric Siu]

When did you start?

[Sean]

Two years ago.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

So I had to make up for it with repetitions and good editors for the clips.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. You grew very quickly.

[Sean]

Yeah. Well, everyone else, like you and Rogan had a 10 year start, so I had to catch up.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. But it's. I think it's like the hardest thing to grow, but the most rewarding thing.

[Sean]

It is hard. I was losing tons of money at first. Most people probably couldn't stomach those losses the first year or two, you know.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, good. It's. We can. We Asians know how to take pain.

[Sean]

Oh, yeah.

[Eric Siu]

Not that other. We specifically.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah.

[Eric Siu]

Shout out to a lot of pain growing up.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Are you full Asian?

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Chinese?

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. Taiwanese, Cantonese, but whatever.

[Sean]

Same thing.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Yeah. I just found out I'm not just half Chinese. I'm Thai, Filipino and Chinese.

[Eric Siu]

Oh, wow.

[Sean]

I took a 23. Andme. I don't know if I believe it, though.

[Eric Siu]

So you're full Asian?

[Sean]

Half. My mom said she was full Chinese, but I guess she wasn't.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

So I'm half Asian.

[Eric Siu]

Okay. Got it.

[Sean]

Half white.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, I could. I was like, I'm pretty sure you have some white in you.

[Sean]

Yeah, I wouldn't be this tall.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. I was like, how are you so tall? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean]

I like it out there. I've been in China.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Been in Thailand.

[Eric Siu]

It's.

[Sean]

It's a different vibe, man.

[Eric Siu]

It's good. It's. They. It's interesting because I met someone when I was in Italy this summer, and then she lives in China. And then I was like, you know, because, like, America likes to talk about China all the time. I'm like, so, like, what do you guys do in China? She's like, we don't really talk about America. We don't care. Like, like, our lives are good, our costs are low, and our technology so forward. And like, she's a teacher, right? And she's like, yeah, you know, I teach my kids, you know, they're five, six years old, and they know about, you know, they know about engineering, they know about computer science, and, like, they're pushing hard, right? And it's no wonder why they're. They're growing so quickly and. But they don't really talk about America that much as much as we talk about them.

[Sean]

Right.

[Eric Siu]

Because they just want to worry about themselves.

[Sean]

I can definitely see it. We paint certain countries in a bad light, and then you actually go there and talk to people. They're like, we don't care about you.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. And it. It makes sense. I understand why we would do that, and I understand why they wouldn't care, too.

[Sean]

So what do you think of their social system? How they're going to start rewarding and punishing people for certain activities?

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. So some things, I think, here's the thing. Like when you look at Singapore, for example, I think. And I could be wrong here, but if you're. If you bring in drugs or something like that, like, you get. You get beaten, or I think they cut your hand off or like something extreme, Right. In some cases they might, like, maybe they'll even kill you. Right? But how much crime do you have going on there? Or like in Dubai, like, if you do something off, they'll just kick you out. Right. Like, we don't really have that here. Like, but. So if we set up the incentive structures correctly, then people will behave Properly. And so I think maybe that will be helpful, maybe it won't. So I can't really say I have an opinion either way.

[Sean]

Yeah. I think it's also person based. Like some parents are strict, obviously. Like a lot of Asian parents are and the kids end up either like amazing or like the complete opposite.

[Eric Siu]

Or sometimes you might have like one kid that turns out amazing, the other one turns out like terrible, but they just had different life experiences and they look at life differently even though they had the same parents.

[Sean]

Yeah. That's why I liked my, my parents because I had the strict Asian mother, but my dad was complete opposite. So I got to experiment both. And I wouldn't want either end for my kid. I would want some middle ground.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, same. Same here. I mean there should always be like one tiger parent and then one that's super nice.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need both. Because if you're just a hard balance.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. If you're too nice then like what happens is you end up having a kid that has no emotional res and then they break whenever pressure comes.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

And but if you're too hard then like they have like no flexibility.

[Sean]

And you see that with our friends that are having kids because they're pretty wealthy and then their hands off with their kids and they're too nice. They let them do whatever.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

But their kids end up like the wealthy ones.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, A lot of them, the kids end up being screw ups. And like I see this in. So the group that I'm in, ypo is like an entrepreneur group and you often will see the kids and some kids turn out amazing because the parents are so involved and the other kid like it's, it's like black or white. It's either they're amazing or they're complete screw ups.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

Right. There's no in between that I've seen.

[Sean]

Yeah, same. I can agree. You're having an event for YPO coming up.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, that's. It's going to be in Miami. It's the Global Marketing Summit. So that's exciting. And that's another thing for me to do. But that's happening in April.

[Sean]

It's on my bucket list to join that one day. Yeah, I'll meet the qualifications yet.

[Eric Siu]

But you will.

[Sean]

10 million a year. Right.

[Eric Siu]

It's 13 million a year or like 20 million valuation or like if you have assets under management, it's like a different, different qualification.

[Sean]

I could probably meet the valuation one in maybe a year or two. Great with the podcast.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. Then you should join.

[Sean]

Yeah, No, I Definitely want to. I've heard great things.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, it's good, I think, whether it's YPO or Hampton or eo, like any of these. These groups, it's very like, as you climb higher, the air gets thinner and it gets lonely.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

So they have people you can talk to, especially when they're from different walks and different businesses. You know, these are your people. And then the cool thing, like, YPO is really good about involving your family as well. So I don't have kids or anything like that, but they're good about, you know, not just making it about the entrepreneur, because the family, like, if you don't take care of your spouse, first you. And then you don't take care of your family, then, like, your business falls apart.

[Sean]

Yeah. I think everything kind of coincides with each other. Right. So you're in Hampton. Sam Pars, also.

[Eric Siu]

No, I'm not. I was an EO before for seven years, and then ypo. I think I've been in for four or five years or so. But I think Hampton's great. So.

[Sean]

Yeah, I've heard good things about Hampton. I love that podcast.

[Eric Siu]

Great podcast.

[Sean]

One of the shows I studied before launching mine.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. It's. I mean, they put a lot of time and effort into it.

[Sean]

Yeah. And not many shows can pull off virtual. They're one of the few that can. So that's something to be studied.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. I just like this because, like, that just. There's different dynamics. Like, we can go deeper, and then the shots look better, too, so. But also, this takes more work, so props to you.

[Sean]

Yeah. That's why I travel to a new city every month. Because virtual doesn't hit the same dude.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Like, it's harder to read.

[Eric Siu]

How much better do you see the performance? Virtual versus Life.

[Sean]

I've only done one virtual. I'm really strict on it, and it's because he was banned from the US but just from what I've studied, because I've studied all the top shows, most of them are in person. Like Rogan.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Lex Friedman. Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

People just like it. It feels like, oh, you put more time and effort into it.

[Sean]

Yeah. And I'm excited about the future, though. These. These podcasts are getting a lot of good valuations lately, actually. I don't know if you've been following the market.

[Eric Siu]

Well, there's Call Me Daddy. Call her Daddy. Right. Call Me Dad. I don't know where I got that, but, like. So how much was that one worth?

[Sean]

She sold for 60 million for 10 years. Or was it 6? Years, something like that. 20 million a year.

[Eric Siu]

And then Rogan, I think renewed or something for 250.

[Sean]

For 200 years. Heartless. 100 million. Yeah. Travis Kelsey. 100 million.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

There's been five above 100 million this year.

[Eric Siu]

That's amazing. Yeah. I think you just keep going.

[Sean]

Yeah. Because the margins are good.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. I mean, we love our podcast. It's been great for us. So.

[Sean]

Yeah. And you got to. So.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

You ever think about starting a network like other shows?

[Eric Siu]

No, it's just like, I've learned that, so younger me would try to start all these different businesses and. Because I think I can because, like, wow, look at all these other people with multiple businesses. But then as you get older, you realize when you start to meet people that are like, oh, I have seven businesses, you realize that's actually not a flex, it's actually a red flag. Right. Because the businesses, and maybe they enjoy it, that's fine. Right. But if you want a really big business, you're ideally focusing on one for a very long time. And I'm not just saying like five, ten years. I'm talking like 20, 30 years or so.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

Because it just keeps compounding, Right. Like, I met a guy, actually one of our clients also. YPO guy. They do north of nine figures a year in, in revenue. And he's just been doing it for 30 years. They build like these homes, right? And I'm like, that's all it is. Right. And he's like, I'm not like a genius or anything like that. I just kept doing it. And then I'm reading this other book right now. I paid 112, I think, for this book. It's called Keep It Going from Les Schwab. Right.

[Sean]

It's the most expensive book I've ever heard.

[Eric Siu]

So this guy wrote, he founded Les Schwab Tires, right? And that used to be one of the biggest, like tire companies in the US and I think they're doing like 180 million a year in like 1986 or so. So it's like way more money right now. And then he's just like an all shucks guy, like a cowboy. And then he's just like, I don't know what's going on. And he just like kept building one store after another and just kept compound it for a long time. And that's all he did. And then you find out, like, a lot of these people that have built, built big businesses, it's just they focused on one thing over 30 plus years. And that's how they build it into multi hundred million or multi billion.

[Sean]

Yeah. Just as being consistent. I learned that from Fleishman. He. He said he got some advice when he was 20 years old. Buy one house a year and see where you're at in like 20, 30 years. And look at the appreciation on real estate in that time.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, houses are solid.

[Sean]

Yeah. Just from simply buying a house. I mean, out here, house like 5 million.

[Eric Siu]

But I mean, it used to be like, you know, four or 500k when I was growing up.

[Sean]

Crazy.

[Eric Siu]

Now it's like five, ten times more. Right.

[Sean]

So you're happy right now with your place?

[Eric Siu]

Well, no, I'm renting. So like, yeah, I, I kind of fall into the room safety category for that. That. So he's good at personal finance, but I just believe that I'm only going to buy a place like when I'm like married with kids, you know what I mean? And so right now I'm just like, it's just another thing. And I talk to a lot of entrepreneurs that have multiple homes. They actually regret it. Right. Because like each home takes up headspace and it's like a job, even if you have property managing it because there's problems with it. Right. There's upkeep with it. What if you just put all that headspace into your business and just focused on one? Right. And so like I used to be a big proponent of, I'm going to do all these things, like, you know, look at me. And now I've. I've gotten hit so hard so many times over the years that I'm just like, oh, just this.

[Sean]

Yeah, simplicity, man. Elon Musk has no. No home, no cars.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, yeah. Even with him, by the way. He's a good example. Like, sure, he has a lot of things going on, but he has really good operators running each one. Like SpaceX. Right. He's got Gwyneth there. Yeah. And then, you know, he's got Linda over there at X. And so he might jump around a lot and like push things, but he's not in there operating all the time, you know.

[Sean]

That's true. So are you still playing poker?

[Eric Siu]

Not as much. I play occasionally, like with a group of entrepreneurs here. But no, it's like when we throw poker things, like it's like an hour to get there and all that. It's like a pain in the butt.

[Sean]

With the LA traffic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like it for networking. Yeah, it's great for networking, like invite only stuff. But yeah, just casually.

[Eric Siu]

I don't See, what's the buy in typically, for you?

[Sean]

What's up?

[Eric Siu]

What's the buy in typically?

[Sean]

I've done, like, a couple, like, a thousand. Nothing crazy. I never do it for money. Like.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

It's just.

[Eric Siu]

To me, that's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean]

So I'm not like, some of these, like, Nick Arabella is coming on. I think he buys into, like, a million.

[Eric Siu]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean]

I'm like, dude, yeah, that's crazy.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean]

You give up gaming, too. I know you play esports.

[Eric Siu]

I can't. I can't play games anymore because any time I start playing a game, like, I tried playing Diablo 3, maybe, like, when I was 27 or 28. Yeah. Now it's. And I'm just like. I just kept thinking about business. I just, like, business is the ultimate game.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

And I think any kid that grows up playing games, like, all. I was just like, dude, what am I gonna do? What if I can't find a game to play in real life? Turns out business is the best game.

[Sean]

It is a game.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I play a little Fortnite.

[Eric Siu]

Everything's a game.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Business is 24 7, sport.

[Eric Siu]

But, like, you're keeping. Your. Keeping healthy is a game, too. Like, managing relationships is a game too. Like, yeah, we're playing a game right here, right now, too.

[Sean]

Absolutely. Yeah. I play a little Fortnite. But no, like yourself. While I'm playing, I'm like, wow, I could be making money. I could be doing vodka.

[Eric Siu]

Because when you're playing, you're like, I want to get better. Like, I played a couple of rounds of Fortnite, and sure, like, I felt like I played a lot of counter strike growing up, right. So, like, I was in a flow, but I'm just like. But, like, I'm going to want to get good at this. I'm going to get addicted. But, like. But, you know, people talk about business being. You know, you got to allocate resources, right? What you really need to allocate is actually your attention. It's actually more about attention allocation than it is about resource allocation, because your attention controls your resources at the end of the day. And so the more you can shut things out from your life and the more you can hone in, the better you're going to do.

[Sean]

100%. I've actually heard VCs are focusing more on the founders these days. Whether they could lock in or not.

[Eric Siu]

They should. And then the ironic thing is, VCs don't focus, right. Because they need to find A bunch of different bets to go for that multibillion dollar outcome.

[Sean]

Yeah. You ever dabble with rates of money in that whole space?

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, we raised money for one software company, raised a couple hundred grand and then we got it to like a couple hundred grand a year in ARR. But like, again, coming down to focus again, we're like, we need to cut it. Because as. Even though we can see it growing to. To probably a couple of million plus a year, we're just like, this is not where the opportunity is. So we needed to shut it down and then we made a tough call there because the thing is, we could have let that stick around. It's like, oh, I have the software, I have this education thing over here. I have this thing over here. I have seven different things. I have this senior living business over here. Whatever. Right. But what ends up happening is like, I'm now in eight different places.

[Sean]

Right. It's cool that you're able to pivot like that though, because a lot of. I think that's the demise of a lot of business owners, right?

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. Especially agency owners. A lot of agency owners try to do too many things. And that was me in the beginning. I was like, well, you have this agency that's growing, but like, oh, look at this person doing courses over here. Oh, look at this person doing software over here. Like, the grass is always greener, Right. But the real reality is the grass is greener where you water it.

[Sean]

I love that, man. The one game I won't give up is chess.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I play every day.

[Eric Siu]

Well, chess is like. I think that's a little different though, because it, like, it hones. Like, this is why I'll play poker with friends, because, like, it's. It's very strategic. And to me, poker is very much like real life. Right. Like, chess is like, you're kind of. How do you think about it?

[Sean]

It's all skill based. So if you lose a game of chess, there's no luck involved. You lost because you messed up somewhere.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

So I like that.

[Eric Siu]

Cool. I like. I've never played chess, so.

[Sean]

You never played?

[Eric Siu]

No.

[Sean]

Wow.

[Eric Siu]

No.

[Sean]

Yeah, it's poker. There's some luck, but there's still a lot of skill.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, long term it's skill, but it seems like chess, there's no. It's like short term and long term.

[Sean]

It'S all skill, all skill. Unless your opponent like, like, luckily messes up. But that's like a rare thing.

[Eric Siu]

Oh, wow.

[Sean]

No one's really messing up. It's like little things.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. You've been playing for a while.

[Sean]

I've been playing for two years, but. And it doesn't have to be, like, mental either. I do it in basketball. I do it in sports.

[Eric Siu]

You're tall.

[Sean]

But it's just hard work. And I pay for access.

[Eric Siu]

Cool. Well, chess.com. like, what do you. And you pay for, like, a coach?

[Sean]

Yeah. Got a Coach or studied YouTube. YouTube University. Yeah. These days you don't even need degrees, in my opinion, for those things.

[Eric Siu]

I'm with you on that.

[Sean]

Yeah. I mean, YouTube is phenomenal in podcasting.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I mean, why would you get pay 40k for a degree in marketing when they could listen to your show?

[Eric Siu]

Your parents tell you to.

[Sean]

Yeah. Well, that's what worked for them. Yeah. That was before alternative media.

[Eric Siu]

Totally.

[Sean]

But now my mom's, like, the biggest listener of the show.

[Eric Siu]

Oh, well.

[Sean]

Even though we used to fight every day about academics, dude, I'm sure you dealt with that, too.

[Eric Siu]

Oh, all the time. How old are you right now?

[Sean]

27.

[Eric Siu]

Okay. Yeah. So she's probably loosening up a little bit.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Well, I had to loosen her up, too. We found some middle ground now.

[Eric Siu]

Great.

[Sean]

But I. I got a lot of Asian listeners, so I hope if they're listening to, you know, kind of follow this path.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, the tiger mom is good.

[Sean]

Yeah, it's good in some ways, but just academic. A lot of trauma, man. Because I was friends with Asian kids in school, and they were.

[Eric Siu]

Oh, yeah, we have our trauma, but it's like, the traumas were never good enough. Yeah.

[Sean]

That's.

[Eric Siu]

The trauma.

[Sean]

Even in a grade wasn't good enough.

[Eric Siu]

Oh, yeah. Nothing's good enough.

[Sean]

But it. It's good in a way, right?

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. No, I love it now. Like, there's that chip on my shoulder that will always stay there. It's like, no matter what. And then if someone tries to reinforce that, like, you're never good enough, all the trauma comes back. And then you just push really hard facts. Right?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

Or you could be weak about it and then, like, cry about it.

[Sean]

Yeah. Did you get bullied, too, growing up?

[Eric Siu]

Not really. I always found a way to kind of sneak into, like, whatever the popular group was because I was good at games, and games were cool, or I was, like, at least semi decent. So I somehow found my way, like, around, like, it wasn't always, like. It wasn't like I was top dog or anything, but I always found a way into these groups.

[Sean]

Impressive. That's tough. As an Asian. Well done.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Yes.

[Eric Siu]

Well, I mean, there were Asian popular Groups or white popular groups. But I got along with everybody.

[Sean]

I. Yeah, yeah. And my school is mainly whites and. Yeah. No Asians in the popular group.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. But, I mean, you're like a tall Asian, right? They let you in?

[Sean]

Nah.

[Eric Siu]

No. That's unfortunate. I'm sorry.

[Sean]

I was pretty weird, to be honest.

[Eric Siu]

But we're all weird.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I learned now that if you're normal, it's like a red flag to me.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sean]

Because that's.

[Eric Siu]

Because then you're going to get normal results.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. Better to be weird if you're just.

[Sean]

Acting like an NPC. I'm like, all right.

[Eric Siu]

Weird to me 100%.

[Sean]

Yeah. Who you got coming on the show next?

[Eric Siu]

So we just had Seth Godin, and so he just went out, like, yesterday or the day before. Today's Friday, right? Yeah. Wednesday. And then we have Anthony Pompliano. That should come out next week. Nice. And then we have. I'm gonna talk. Be talking to my friend Jess. Ma. So she's worth about $500 million. She's also a YPO member. She flies. She has two jets.

[Sean]

Damn.

[Eric Siu]

She flies around. She actually lives in la. Her main driver is, like, a Lambo. She's talked about all this stuff and, like, yeah, she invests in a lot of different things. She's, like, realized, you know, that she likes doing that. And I think it'll be a great conversation. Like, I don't like the fact that, okay, she's a woman and she's a person of color. Like, that doesn't matter to me. Like, what matters is, like, she gets shit done. Right, Right. I think a lot of people get caught up with, like, oh, you know, we need to meet, like, these, like, quotas and things like that.

[Sean]

Like, dei.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. It's just. That's not. Just not what matters. Right. What matters is, like, yeah, like, yes, it does matter. Like, sure, you should have some diversity of thought and opinion, but ideally, you're looking for people based on their immutable characteristics. Right. Like, what their character is and like, what they've done on their merit.

[Sean]

Yeah. And that's why I like business. Because skin color, race doesn't matter.

[Eric Siu]

Doesn't matter.

[Sean]

Height doesn't matter.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sean]

If you're good at business, like, let's. Let's hang out.

[Eric Siu]

Exactly.

[Sean]

One of the tweets I liked about you, you said there's two type of friends, utility friends and friend friends. Yeah, I agree with that.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. So, like, this is interesting because I was speaking at a mastermind with my Friend who. So we were both speaking and he sold his company for $250 million. And we're just talking about it, and he's like, like, yeah, you know, there's one guy that's well known. I'm not going to name any names, but he's well known on YouTube, right? And he is all about, like, money, money, money. And he will. He looks up to people that have a lot of money, right? And he'll like. He basically worships them, right? But if you have less money than him, he treats you like you. You clearly have less money than him, right? So that's an example of utility friend. Like, he. He treats my friend pretty well because, like, he sold his company for 250, but he's constantly asking, ask him, is like, hey, so how are things going right now? You make a revenue on that thing right now. Like, it's a competition, right? So it's like he wants something from someone. Now that's a utility friend. But a friend friend is like, you love them no matter what, you love them for their character, right? Like, I had a friend recently, you know, reach out to me, like, regarding personal stuff. It's like, hey, how are you doing? Like, how are you holding up? Like, blah, blah, blah, right? And I was like, dude, I'm good, right? But. But like, the concern that's there, like, it's not about, hey, can I get something from this guy? It's like, hey, how is my friend doing right now? I love this person no matter what. And it's really hard to come across friend friends. And we're talk. Talking about it, and it was interesting because he looked at me, he's like, he's like, you're kind of a mix between the two, Eric. He's like, you're actually like a utility person until you trust someone. And then once I trust someone, they're like a friend friend. Like, I love them forever, right? And so I think, yeah, more friend friends, but utility friends, they also have their uses, too.

[Sean]

Yeah, I have both. I think it's important to have both. Some people get offended if you kind of box them in as a certain type of friend.

[Eric Siu]

But.

[Sean]

But, you know, I have friends that are. Are broke. I'm not going to go to them for business advice.

[Eric Siu]

No, but like, by the way, like, I still keep in touch with my high school friends, my elementary school friends. I don't know about you, but, like, I love them for who they are. It doesn't matter how much money they make. And, like, we've grown together and, like, there's a role for everybody in your life. You know what I mean?

[Sean]

But you were probably growing at a quicker pace than most of them, I assume, financially at least.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it picked up and it picked up eventually. And, you know, again, I wasn't the top dog. Right. So, like, you know, it's, it's sometimes it's tough to see that because, like, you have your high school friends see it and they're just like, how is this happening? It started. It puts up a mirror against them. Right. And then what happens is, like, some of them won't talk to you anymore, and that's fine. Like, you know, Charlie Munger says that the world is driven by. It's not driven by, by necessarily greed, it's driven by envy.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

And so. But the real friends. The real friend friends will stick with you.

[Sean]

Yeah, absolutely. You also retweeted this graph. It was about the US fertility rates. So it's at 1.64 right now. So right now, at the current pace, we're going to depopulate.

[Eric Siu]

Yep. Yeah. And so, I mean, everybody talks about this. Like, Elon talks about this quite a bit. It's like, if we continue to go down that rate, like, there's going to be way less humans and we could even go extinct. Right. So we're not doing our, our job right now in terms of, you know, everyone should at least have two kids. Right. That's what it should be. We're at 1.64 right now. Korea is, like, even lower than that. Japan's pretty low, too. And by the way, like, Charlie Munger, again, show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome. Well, why did this happen? Like, well, what happened in the last, I don't know, 30, 40 years or so, 50 years or so. Contraception was invented. Right. So now there's an incentive to keep hooking up, but, like, you know, the kids don't pop out.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

So that, that might be one of the reasons. Right. But I, I just think I, I don't have much of an opinion here besides the fact that, like, we should be having more kids. And I'm not an expert on this by any means, but that's why I retweeted, tweeted it.

[Sean]

I've changed my stance on it. I used to not want kids. I used to just be all about making money.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

But now I want kids.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. It changes over time. Right. It's like, first it's all about money because from nothing. Right. Then it's like, okay, well now can, how can I add more to the world, right? You want some purpose maybe with the kids, Right. Not that you don't have any purpose. But then even Neil, like we were both recording yesterday for marketing school and you know, he was just saying like he was all about money in the 20s. Like I, when I was like 24, I met him like he was 25. Right. All about money. All he talked about was money. I remember I had like a heartbreak with a girl and he'd be like, he just stare at me and then he'd be like, so anyway, he'd go right back to business and then like it's, it's. But now that he has two kids, he's just like, it's much more about family, it's much more about friends. And you realize that's all that matters at the end of the day.

[Sean]

I love it. Yeah. Because once you got a certain amount of money, how much more is going to change your life dramatically? It used to.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. Like 100 million is not going to be that different than a billion. And then the stories that you see is like the people that are billionaires, they're constantly looking at the next person that it goes back to envy again. Oh, he has that jet over here, he has that yacht over here. He has three more billion than me. Right. It's a never ending game. And it's the wrong game to play.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's the wrong game. Do you have a set number or you kind of just go with the flow?

[Eric Siu]

I think 100 million liquid would be nice. But like reality is you don't really need much more than in my opinion, 50. Right? 50 is pretty good. Yeah, like 50 is really good. Right. Because if you're living on, on 5% a year, like that's pretty damn good. Right? A million, that's 2.5.

[Sean]

2.5 a year.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, that's 2.5. Right. And so hopefully you can get a better return than that. But 2.5 is more enough to provide for your family. Yeah. And I think it's very possible, like people might think, oh my God, 50 million. Yes. You're in the, you're in the 1%. Right. Probably higher than that for net worth. But let's go back to the agency again. You can start an agency for almost nothing, right. And you can grow it and then maybe get it to you keep doing it for 10, 20 years or so, get it to 5 million in profit, sell it for 10x or so. Okay, there's your, there's your 50 right. Maybe you get taxed on it. Maybe it ends up being like 25, 30 or so. Or, you know what else you can do? I'll give a little more here. You can buy an agency. You can. Sorry, you can build an agency, build it to 5 million in profit. Private equity, partner up with them. Okay. And then private equity will go to you say, okay, your company's worth $50 million. We'll give you 25 million. So 50%, you pocket that. Yeah. And then the other 50%, you roll over. Okay. And we're going to build a platform and we're going to buy all these other companies. Sometimes the second exit might be like 3,400 million or so. You still own 50%. Maybe you're diluted a little bit. Right. But let's just call it round numbers. That's another 200. Plus the 25. That's 225. Right. And so I think getting this knowledge out there, hopefully it helps more people understand that. Hey, you see regular human beings doing this stuff. You can do it, too.

[Sean]

Yeah. You probably see it every day. Did the agency space get saturated when Iman Gadi launched that course?

[Eric Siu]

I don't think there was any effect there. I think it was good. Like, my take on the courses is like, it's good. It's funny because I helped launch a course for this one company, and this is a guy that mentored people. Like, the course was a guy that mentored Tony Robbins, for example, and. And one of the executives in the room, he's like, you know what education is about? He's like, what courses are all about? It's about perceived progress. And the entire room went silent. And then the CEO started laughing. Right. And so it's like, a lot of people, like, I hate using the word, but it's like mental masturbation. Right. Like, I used to download a lot of courses and buy a lot of courses, but, like, it felt good. I got the dopamine hit. Right. But did I really do anything about it? Sometimes I did, but most of the times I didn't.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

I mean that you could say that with books, too. But yeah, it's all, I guess, if you take action on the information.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. And to Iman's point, like, I think he probably made a lot of money off of that. Right. Because he sold a lot. But how many people are going to actually take action? It's probably like 1%.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

And that's still a good amount of people.

[Sean]

Yeah. Well, Ty launched one too, right? Ty Lopez.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. Yeah. I Think. I think a lot of people that launch these courses, like, I think it's like a short term grab. And then what you realize is that courses are like a fine business, but you're probably going to get your course business to maybe like, you know, 15, 20 million a year max. And that's great. Right. But you know, if you really want to scale and I think if you want to really build something that has enterprise value, then you probably need to build something more sustainable. I'm not saying build an agency.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Eric Siu]

But that's what it is.

[Sean]

So like a community, right?

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. And like we were talking about Ty beforehand. Like, I think he's great, but like, you know, for example, we heard that he's charging, you know, to. To. If you want him to be on your podcast, he'll charge you like a significant amount of money. Right. And so that's like a nice. In marketing, we like to call it biz op. Right. Business opportunity. And so maybe that's not the right application there, but anyway, I'm using that in, in this case.

[Sean]

Yeah, I mean, he's always thinking of creative ways.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah.

[Sean]

You can't argue that he has a trendsetter.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah, he, he does. Great.

[Sean]

So, I mean, he's the first course I remember. Maybe there were people before him, but that course just. I feel like it set the tone for the courses.

[Eric Siu]

The courses are great. There's a guy, you know, I think his. So he did a dating course. He's like a marketer. His name was Eben Pagan, but he had like A. David D'Angelo was just like, he sold these dating courses. Right. He made like a lot of money on that. There's another market named Frank Kern. Yeah, he had like a lot of courses too. Right. And these courses generate millions. But the problem is you have to keep relaunching them. You have to keep updating information. Right. And now information is becoming so much more democratized. So what are you going to do? Long term?

[Sean]

Yeah, I don't know if they're going to stick long term because now there's so much good information in books and on YouTube. Yeah, I don't see.

[Eric Siu]

I mean, if you're a good marketer, you'll probably still get like some revenue from it.

[Sean]

But yeah, yeah, I see like masterminds and communities. I feel like those are gonna do better.

[Eric Siu]

Yeah. I think Sam Altman has said this. Right. Communities, especially in person communities will be worth even more money next five to ten years or so.

[Sean]

Absolutely. YPO is probably worth a ton. I mean, they got so much good resources there.

[Eric Siu]

Exactly.

[Sean]

Dude, what what are you doing next and where can people come up and meet you? And yeah, check out the podcast just.

[Eric Siu]

Hit me at Eric Osiu and then marketing school and leveling up would be the two podcasts but on Twitter, on Instagram, those will be the spots.

[Sean]

Perfect. We'll link it below. Thanks for watching guys and thanks for coming on man.

[Eric Siu]

Thanks for having me.

[Sean]

Boom.

[Eric Siu]

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[Sean]

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[Eric Siu]

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