Scott Payne- Inside The Base: Goat Sacrifice, Murder Plots & America’s Hidden Extremists | DSH #1665

Summary

Podcast Summary: Digital Social Hour

Episode: Scott Payne – Inside The Base: Goat Sacrifice, Murder Plots & America’s Hidden Extremists | DSH #1665
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Scott Payne (Retired FBI Agent, Author)
Date: December 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

This gripping episode features retired FBI agent Scott Payne, renowned for his deep undercover work inside America’s most dangerous extremist groups. Hosted by Sean Kelly, the conversation dives into the harrowing details of Payne’s infiltration of violent white supremacist networks, the psychological toll of undercover work, the reality of extremist recruitment online, and disturbing firsthand accounts of murder plots and ritualistic acts. Payne’s stories shed light on both the complexity and evolution of domestic extremism in America.

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Key Topics & Insights

Early Law Enforcement Career and Undercover Beginnings

[00:44–03:53]

• Payne’s Law Enforcement Start: Began as a patrol officer, then became a vice/narcotics investigator in South Carolina.
  • First undercover gig: “I just rolled down to the corner and bought a crack rock for $20.”
• Transition to FBI: Initially worked wiretaps for organized crime in New York (pre-9/11), learning the ropes on street crime and mob operations.

Challenges and Dangers of Undercover Work

[04:06–13:46]

• Increasing Dangers: Modern technology and social media make undercover work more dangerous due to ubiquitous cameras and digital tracking.
  • “Buying dope for $20 on the street’s dangerous these days. Even mid-90s, there’s always a propensity for violence.” [04:13, A]
• Infiltrating Biker Gangs: Payne discusses his work with Outlaws biker gangs, noting the inherent suspicion towards newcomers and the challenges of maintaining cover—especially given his Southern accent in Massachusetts.
• Near-Death Strip Search:
  • “They took me into a basement and stripped me at gunpoint… They searched me, I went down there and I took off all my clothes…they even started going through my clothing with a recording device in it.” [09:12–13:46, A]
  • Payne narrowly avoids detection by staying cool under pressure, calling it “divine intervention.”

The Psychological Toll and Burnout

[20:45–21:49, 26:18–26:51]

• Mental Toll: Two years embedded in the Outlaws, combined with overlapping cases, led to a total physical and mental crash.
  • “I met my threshold one day. I physically and mentally crashed. I was done.” [21:40, A]
• Safeguard Unit: FBI’s psychological assessment program for agents working particularly traumatic crimes (e.g., child exploitation)—Payne reveals how agents must routinely undergo psychological evaluation to avoid lasting harm.

Long-Term Undercover Work: Accelerationist & White Supremacist Groups

[40:45–61:36]

• Infiltration of “The Base”:
  • Recruitment: “Save Your Race. Join The Base” – calls for white supremacist paramilitary recruitment on Gab.
  • Tactics: The Base operates in 3–5 man cells, modeling themselves after Al Qaeda, waiting for the “boogaloo” (race war).
  • Rituals: “We did some blots, which is the ritual ceremony in paganism…we’d cut ourselves and bleed on the wood with the runes…Then we would light it on fire and pray till the fire went out.” [46:36–47:24, A]
  • Goat Sacrifice: Members steal a goat, conduct a Norse-inspired pagan ritual, and drink its blood—used as a sacrificial act to signal the beginning of racial violence.
    • “They said, 'Hey man, we’re going to go sacrifice this goat'…I guess I’m going down in the woods.” [47:59–49:19, A]
    • “So it gets around to me, it’s my turn to drink the blood…I took two fingers, put it all deep in the blood, sucked all the blood off.” [53:18–54:05, A]
• Murder Plots:
  • Planned assassinations of Antifa-affiliated targets and discussions of attacking journalists and public figures.
    • “It ended up to where they wanted me and the cell leader, TMB, to kind of go through the house and kill everybody while Helter Skelter held guard at the window, and then Pestilence was going to set the house on fire and burn it down.” [00:00, 56:24–56:54, A]
    • “Helter Skelter's like, hey, I want to pop my cherry…and he's like, oh, I actually want to put a bullet in a person's head. I've been waiting for this for at least two years.” [56:54, A]
  • Prevention: Payne’s interventions and slow-play tactics bought time for the FBI to make arrests before actual violence occurred.

Radicalization in the Digital Age

[38:08–40:45, 62:34–63:42]

• Online Recruitment:
  • Extremist groups leverage encrypted apps (Discord, Telegram, Wire) and gaming chats (Roblox, Fortnite) to radicalize and recruit youth.
  • “Bad people go to Discord, Telegram, 4chan, 8chan, 12chan…Roblox, Fortnite, they're talking on there and all. They're blending in.” [38:19–38:41, A & B]
• Sick Online Subcultures:
  • Nihilistic groups like 764, promoting self-harm, sexual abuse, animal torture, and incentivized “point systems”: “There's a group…their saints are mass shooters. What are you going to do to make the leaderboard?” [59:10, A]
  • The blending of white supremacy, satanic ritual, and online sadism is described as a new and dangerous evolution.

Reflections on Crime, Culture, and Society

[31:04–34:07, 64:06–64:51]

• Modern Adversity and Cancel Culture:
  • Payne laments a generation unprepared for adversity, drawing links between “helicopter parenting”, lack of failure, and susceptibility to radical ideologies and cancel culture.
  • “I think that you got to take the opportunities away…maybe you take away the opportunity, but…it's just crazy.” [36:03–37:23, A]
• War on Drugs & Crime:
  • Candid perspective on why the war on drugs and extremism are unwinnable: “No, I don't think so…It's a cat and mouse game. They're going to try to figure out a way to get it, and we're going to try to figure out a way to stop it.” [64:06, A]

Personal Motivation and Ethics

[17:53–19:18, 46:36, 63:49–64:07]

• Why Undercover: Payne frames his law enforcement career as a “calling”—“servant’s heart, bully of bullies”—and stresses that no case is worth losing your family, health, or self.
• Camaraderie in the Bureau: Mentions mentors and the importance of psychological evaluation to prevent undercover agents from getting lost in their roles.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On surviving a strip search by armed bikers:

  “They had just finished church, which is their meeting…two guys had their guns on me, down in the basement, stripping me, looking for a wire and making me write down all kinds of information, but even if I would have got past them, I still had like eight or more Outlaws upstairs, with a locked door, metal bar across it…” [09:12–11:08, A]

• On the goat sacrifice ritual:

  “We went down in the woods…and after praying, they tried to chop its head off…it didn’t do nothing…then someone asks if somebody had a weapon, and one did…they shot the goat, poured its blood in a cup, everyone kneeling and drinking.” [49:19–53:18, A]

• Explaining The Base's ideology:

  “Accelerationism is this belief system that they don’t believe there’s a political solution…they believe society is going to collapse on its own, or through manmade events, and they want to speed it up…talking like guerrilla warfare: take down power grid, poison water, derail train, kill anti-fascists, Jews, non-whites.” [41:46–42:33, A]

• On thwarting a murder plot:

  “I was able to slow them down because the planning was pretty terrible. It changed a few times…they wanted me and the cell leader TMB to go through the house and kill everybody while Helter Skelter held guard at the window, and then Pestilence was going to set the house on fire and burn it down.” [00:00, 56:24–56:54, A]

• On modern extremism:

  “There are tons of kids being radicalized online. It could be Radical Jihad, far-left, far-right…they’re getting them to do things, grooming them…having live chat groups…cutting themselves, slicing, points system, bean cuts.” [38:08–40:18, A]

• Payne’s “big country” law enforcement ethos:

  “In my world, I just want you to understand that there are evil people on this planet that want to do evil things to good people. And it’s been that way since the beginning of time.” [63:49, A]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Start of Extremist Infiltration and Murder Plots: [00:00–01:25, 56:24–56:54]
• Organized Crime & Early FBI Work: [00:59–03:44]
• Danger of Deep Cover/Strip Search Incident: [09:12–13:46]
• Psychological Toll/Burnout Safeguard: [20:45–22:14; 26:18–26:51]
• Online Radicalization and Grooming: [38:08–40:45]
• Goat Sacrifice Ritual/Accelerationist Paganism: [47:57–54:05]
• Details of The Base & Murder Conspiracies: [41:08–46:11; 54:31–56:54]
• Discussion of Modern Extremist Groups & Digital Platforms: [62:34–63:42]

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Conclusion

Scott Payne’s account offers a rare, unflinching view of the front lines in America’s fight against extremism—from terrifying near-exposures in biker gangs to surreal rituals and murder conspiracies among accelerationist neo-Nazis. His willingness to discuss both the visceral realities and emotional tolls of undercover work gives listeners a sobering look at the ever-evolving nature of extremist threats and the hidden battles waged to stop them.

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Find Scott Payne:

• Socials: @ScottPayneBigCountry (Instagram, LinkedIn, X, Threads)
• Book: "Pale Horse" (title referenced)

[Compiled and summarized for listeners who want a thorough yet engaging re-cap of one of the most jaw-dropping Digital Social Hour episodes to date.]

Transcript

[A]

I went down there, and we found out that he was really planning on killing people. And it got so detailed that we canvassed this. This couple. They believe the couple were very active members of the Antifa. I was able to slow them down because the planning was pretty terrible. It changed a few times, but it ended up to where they wanted me and the cell leader, tmb, to kind of go through the house and kill everybody while Helter Skelter held guard at the window. And then Pestmoox was going to set the house on fire and burn it down. But then it got to the point to where Helter Skelter's like, hey, I want to pop my cherry. And I'm like, wow, what are you talking about? That mean something different to me.

[B]

Okay, guys, special episode today we got Scott Payne, retired FBI agent. Living a calmer life these days, I'd imagine, right?

[A]

Yeah. Lots of traveling since the book came out, but yeah.

[B]

Yeah, you're out here for the. The Mob Museum, right, in Vegas.

[A]

Do that tomorrow? Yeah, tomorrow.

[B]

You've been there yet before?

[A]

No, I haven't. I'm really excited to get you big.

[B]

On the mob stuff. You like that one?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, when I first became an agent, my first office was in New York City. So you go through a rotation because they don't just put you directly on a big squad because they want you to learn New York City and the five boroughs and how to get in and out of the office and all that stuff. But, yeah, I sat on a lot of wiretaps for the organized crime squad, the 22nd floor back then. Pre 9 11, 22nd floor at 26 Fed. Half of it was drugs, and the other half was organized crime.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So, yeah, I sat on quite a few.

[B]

So you were trying to infiltrate the Mafia back?

[A]

No, I wasn't undercover. I was just a case agent. I'm just. Just a new agent listening to, like, they might have a wiretap on somebody, and I'm listening to it. Yeah, right. Taking notes, writing down anything pertinent, not pertinent.

[B]

Any of those wiretaps stand out to you that you still think about, you probably can't talk about?

[A]

No, the funniest thing to me was is I'm like a young agent. You know, I'd already been a cop for five years and a vice narcotics investigator, but I'm like, oh, this is the big time. It's in New York, and I'm listening to them, and they start getting to this heated argument, and I'm like, oh, they're Talking like, they just don't make it like they used to. And this, it's just not even pure like it used to be. Like, oh, man, they're talking about drugs going to be. And I mean, it's this heated argument that goes on and on. And they were talking about a donut shop.

[B]

Oh, what?

[A]

And I got like, I was like, man, I thought I was on to something big. That's funny. Now they don't make it. And finally, after all the arguing for like an hour, they're like, they don't make those donuts like they used to. Well, it could have been code, but I. I don't think it was. I think it was just straight up.

[B]

You think, you think they were talking in code, though?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

You don't think they were that sophisticated with that?

[A]

No, not the way it played out. I don't think they were trying to hide anything. I think it was legitimately the donut show.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe on calls, but I'd imagine in the house or whatever, it's. It's tougher to do that, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, but on calls, I'd imagine they were talking in some code.

[A]

Should. They should. I mean, you should if you're decent criminal.

[B]

Yeah. These days you never know, you know. How big do you think they are these days, the mob?

[A]

I don't know because I don't work it, you know, I don't know how much they control or don't control. You know, there are other people who work that field that are way more there. They would be much more of an expert on it than me.

[B]

Yeah, you did some other stuff. Right? We'll get into that. What was the first undercover mission for you?

[A]

Well, I started at the sheriff's office, so I. After three years in uniform patrol, I went to vice narcotics investigator, or I made vice narcotics investigator. And. And vice would be your prostitution and gambling back then in South Carolina. And then of course, narcotics got it. But my first undercover for the. For in law enforcement. Yeah, I just. I think I just rolled down to the corner and bought a crack rock.

[B]

Oh, yeah?

[A]

For 20 bucks.

[B]

What happened to that guy?

[A]

Yeah, we. I think we ended up arresting them because what you do sometimes is if you got a high, high drug trafficking area like on a corner, we might roll through there a couple of times, make some buys, get some recordings, and then we might have to figure out who it is before we can charge them. But. Yeah, I think we picked that person up.

[B]

Yeah, but he was probably low on pull out of my.

[A]

Yeah, he's on the corner just slinging. He's probably getting. He's probably a user get. For every five he sold, he probably gets one.

[B]

So I feel that. And as you start getting higher up the totem pole, it got more and more dangerous. Right?

[A]

Yeah. Well, listen, just buying dope for $20 on the streets, dangerous these days, right? Yeah, well, even. And that was mid-90s.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

That was considered more. Damn. I mean, there's been a lot of times in deep undercover, even though there's always a propensity for violence.

Because if you're taking somebody's freedom, I. E. Locking them up or if somebody feels their belief system is threatened, like an extremism type thing, is always a propensity for balance.

[B]

Would you say being undercover these days is actually more difficult because of the access to. Everyone has a camera now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean? They could just record everything. There's cameras everywhere.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

When you were doing it, it was kind of like not. That wasn't really a fact.

[A]

I mean, I only retired in 21.

[B]

Oh, okay. So you caught the tail end of it.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I was still doing it. I was just blessed enough not to get outed. Right. Or have my stuff out there.

[B]

And you felt like near the end, you're. It was more difficult, though.

[A]

Well, yeah, because, I mean, let's just say you're working the biker, like 1 percenter biker clubs. Well, if you do two years in one, what else are you going to do? Because if you can't even work a club that's friends with that club, you wouldn't be smart if you did. Right. It'd be bad operational security. It'd be unsafe. Because if that. If one of those clubs supports the big one that you were in, then, I mean, all this takes is one regional run or one rally, and somebody looks across there and goes, hey, that's that fed, you know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So. And same thing on the extremist side. Once you've been in for a while and you've actually made a good case and a lot of people went to jail. Yeah, I mean, I.

It's going to be tough because, you know, maybe we take down 12 people or 15 people or whatever. Well, they might have been 60 people in that group right now. They didn't get arrested, but now they switch their moniker and now they're on to another group where there's, you know, if you go from the base and we arrest a lot of people on the base, then maybe they switch the Green Brigade or Patriot front or Whatever. And. But they may change their moniker, but that's still the same person. Right.

[B]

So they'll still recognize your face if they saw it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So that's definitely tough. How often were these biker clubs, like, testing for undercovers? Like, were they doing anything crazy there?

[A]

Well, mine, the. I mean, you get vetted. I mean, coming in and out or when you start meeting people, I mean, you're getting scrutinized. I should say you're under scrutiny because nobody knows you and you're new. And imagine the case I did. I'm the big, long biker case. I did. Listen to my accent. It was in Massachusetts. As soon as I show up in Massachusetts and start talking, they're like, where are you from and why are you here?

[B]

Yeah. You didn't change your accent at all. It'd be too hard to me, too, right?

[A]

No, Yeah, I guess. I mean, I do mirror. Once I hang out with somebody from Boston area for a couple of hours, I'll start talking just like them. But, yeah, I wasn't trying to be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Different. I'm still Scott, the jovial country guy.

[B]

Yeah. Did you have any run ins with George Christie? He was a guest on the podcast. President of the Ventura chapter of Hell's Angels.

[A]

No, I did the Outlaws.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I did the Outlaws up in the Northeast. But I mean, I've. The case stretched all over the place. I mean, there was Florida and Detroit and all the way up the east coast to Maine.

[B]

So you did the Northeast?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How big were they out there compared to other regions?

[A]

It depends. Like, you get to big cities like Boston. So Boston and north of Boston was Hell's angel territory. Boston and south was.

The Outlaws and their arch enemies, arch rivals or whatever you'll say. And that was. And then you get down to, like, Cape Cod, and then it would be Hell's Angels again, you know, so big, big state, big cities and states like that, like Florida has more than one, but, like, Tennessee used to just be an outlaw state. South Carolina is a Hell's Angels state. But even here, recently in Tennessee, the pagans have come in, and the Hell's Angels have come in.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Damn.

[B]

So they're still spreading.

[A]

Yeah. Wow.

[B]

I thought.

[A]

And I mean, look, TV does things. I mean, when Sons of Anarchy was big and kicking for however many seasons it was. I love the show. I watched every episode, but the numbers climbed.

[B]

I'm sure you were watching for a different reason.

[A]

No, I just. I was enjoying it because my. At that point, the Outlaws case was done, but I still got to Go out and do other undercovers into biker stuff. Because, I mean, look at me. I'm kind of a biker guy.

[B]

You blend in for sure.

[A]

That's what I get called to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That kind of stuff. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. I'd imagine Hell's angel inspired some people to join some. Some activities.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I didn't even think about it, but just the power of the subconscious mind just picks up on that. Right?

[A]

Well, like the Sopranos. When the Sopranos was big, if you were white and had Italian in you, man, everybody wanted to be a Soprano, you know, so those numbers start boosting. But when the. When the Sons of Anarchy stuff, you did see a lot of numbers grow in recruitment and people wanting to be in, like a one percenter club. But when. When they find out it's real bullets and real dope, it's not just weekend partying. And yeah, you could be having your life in danger than some of those people.

[B]

Did you have a wake up moment like that where you felt like, got real quick.

[A]

Me? Yeah. Just undercover. Yeah. There's all kinds of stuff like. Like I almost got found out and in the Outlaws, after a year and a half in, they. I was wired to the hill. They took me into a basement and stripped me at gunpoint.

[B]

Holy. You had a wire on you?

[A]

Oh, more than one.

[B]

Oh, God. How'd you talk about it?

[A]

I did. L. I was talking. Am I going to do. I was in a. Basically a crawl space under the. Under the clubhouse. And they had just finished church, which is their. That's their version. Their weekly meeting. This mandatory. They refer to it as church. And they just finished church, and I went over there. So even if there's two guys that have their guns on me down in the basement, stripping me, looking for a wire and making me write down all kinds of information, but even if I.

[B]

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[A]

I still had like eight or more outlaws upstairs.

[B]

Holy.

[A]

With a locked door with a metal bar across it. Yeah. So how'd you get out of that divine intervention?

[B]

Oh, they. They heard what was going on.

[A]

No, no, they missed it.

[B]

Oh, what?

[A]

Yeah, they missed. They were searching me. They searched me. I went down there and I took off all my clothes or first I wrote down my stuff and because of the stress of the situation, I forgot my middle name.

[B]

Holy shit.

[A]

And. And I mean, I made the. I made the alias, the identity I knew. But yeah, I was sitting there freaking out and. But I'm talking. I'm also talking. I'm like, hey, man, what else do you need? You know, I don't sound like this.

[B]

Playing it cool.

[A]

Yeah, well, I was trying to. It was not cool. I mean, if you hear my voice, it's way high. My throat's tighter. Yeah. Because I'm having an adrenaline dump. It's a no crap moment. And, you know, I'd be like, hey, and what else do you need? My name and what else? But it sounds like my name and what else? So I do that and then, then I finish. I write the name down, remember it. And then I take off. I basically take my boots off. I take everything in my upper body off. I drop my jeans and underwear down around my ank. So from ankles up, birthday suit. And searched me.

Didn'T see anything. And I get my pants back up. I don't think I have my boots back on. But then the guy that took me down there, who was supposedly a friend of mine, at least probably the second closest relationship I built at that point.

Went by the road. Name Clothesline. Yeah. So clothesline.

After he checks me and I think I'm done because now my adrenaline is. My adrenaline's coming back. That dump's going away. And now I'm coming back in and I'm like, okay, I can feel my legs again. Things are coming back in the slow motion, stuff disappearing.

But then he grabs a piece of my clothing and that clothing had a. Had a recording device in it and he starts going through it. He even says, am I going to find anything in here? I don't want to like some pictures of my old lady. And he kind of laughs and I kind of laugh, but I'm like, I don't know. And I'm watching him just go through this thing and he's kneading it with his hands. He's coming up the clothing piece and it's getting close to where I know my device is at. And you can even hear me. I don't know. I do it, but you can hear me go.

Because I'm just sitting there watching. What am I gonna do? They both got pistols. They've already told me I'm not free to leave. I've already seen rope. I didn't see plastic on the floor, but I mean, I couldn't even stand up straight. And it was such a small space. Yeah, that's why I shouldn't really call it a basement. But. But he, I mean, yeah, he got close and looked, looked at it and, and missed it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You think he missed it or you think he cared about you? You think he missed it?

[A]

He missed it for sure. But he did care about me enough to where he didn't show up. So the whole reason that thing happened is because for that year and a half, it's a two year case, but for that year and a half, we had been collecting all kinds of evidence of criminal activity. They were predicated on all kinds of things. So there's no entrapment issues or anything. Like.

They. I mean, we had them for different drug stuff. Home invasions, insurance fraud, vehicle theft, carjackings. Yeah, stuff like that. But we wanted up the ante. We being the FBI, we had a DEA counterpart in the United States Attorney's office. And we decided to give them what they had been asking for the whole time, which was a link to my cartel contacts. And.

You know, I said, okay, well now, now you get to find out I'm not just a high ranking member or leader of an international theft ring. You get to find out. Yeah, I used to be in the dope game. And let me introduce you to my guy Manny, because that'll give them a way in. And we had, we did a drug deal where we were, we were giving dope to somebody else and they were going to help make sure nothing got ripped. And yeah, we had 40 cubes. This is like 2007, 2008. Ish. We had 40 kilos of cocaine and a thousand pounds of weed. And we's not, we's not a big deal anymore, but back then, 2007, a thousand pounds of weed and then the 40 kilos of cocaine, for sure. And, yeah, they helped me move it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And they. They, they. It's funny. It's actually. It's really surreal because Manny is Martin Suarez, and Martin's got a book that just came out too.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Yeah, because he's inside the cartel. Martin is. Unfortunately, he's got ALS now, so his speech is pretty affected. But he. Man, I actually did a blurb on his book, and I'm reading, and, man, he was doing stuff before they were, like, a lot of rules. I mean, he's down in Miami during, like, the heyday in the 80s, and I'm just hopping on boats and going out in the middle of the ocean and having cocaine shipments the size of an elevator. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. The size of a refrigerator. Multiple refrigerators. Like, one badge is hitting in the ocean. I'm reading all this stuff, and I'm going, how in the heck. There's no way headquarters would let me do that.

[B]

Wow. That was a de Agent.

[A]

No, he's FBI.

[B]

Oh, he's FBI.

[A]

FBI ended up doing, like, a bunch of. I don't want to steal his thunder, but he landed he. Through his expertise, he landed this role as a money launderer for the cartel. And I mean, he was. That was some insane stuff.

[B]

Was he sort of like a mentor figure to you?

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. He helped. So he helped certify me.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I got certified in the FBI's undercover school in 2002. Yeah. And Manny's been around, but now it's funny because, you know, he's got a book, and I'm like, hey, that's Manny. That was. That's the Manny. That's who showed up and helped help me pull off a deal.

[B]

So badass.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Were you always trying to go the undercover route or kind of just happened?

[A]

You know, I go in. I go into great detail in the book, but like. Like, chapter one is basically an overview of me growing up and what I consider my first undercover. Even though I did it in true name, like, the first time, I used the skill set of connecting with people and going into different groups to try to find out some information. I had a. My vice principal was a black man, Mr. Walker. And somebody had tagged his house. Not just hold over. Spray painted the house, spray painted his car. Racial slurs. And he had watched me in high school, and this is the 80s, late 80s, and he had seen that I could go into. I could hang out with podcasts, I could hang out with jocks, I could hang out with musicians. I'm a musician and a singer. I could hang out in the smoking area. And it's not that I was pretending to be. It's just like, he saw this, that I had the ability to connect with people. And he asked me if I'd help him find out if I'd be willing to help him find out who did it to his place. And I said, yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So then from there you go to the sheriff's office in chapter two. Because I went to college not knowing what I was going to do. And then I came across a criminal justice elective. And I was like, her class. And I was like, man, I really like that. And then by the time I was bouncing through college and cops are working the door, I'd talk to them and be like a sponge trying to feed off of it. And. But as I grew up and, you know, I became a cop uniform first, and like I said, vice and narcotics, I just. If I look back, I guess I've always kind of had that.

Servant'S heart, because it's a calling. Right. I mean, you're not doing it for the money, that's for sure. You're not doing it for notoriety.

But it's a calling. So that. That shepherd's mentality, that servant's heart, bully of bullies kind of thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And then once I became a vice narcotics investigator and at the sheriff's office, I went to the state undercover school and got certified. And once I started doing that, man, I had the bug. I I just, I mean, my mentor was one of my men, one of my many mentors was Gary Ward at the Greenville County Sheriff's Office in South Carolina. And he. I mean, hell, he was the world's strongest man in the late 80s.

[B]

Really.

[A]

Nobody could beat him in squat bench and deadlift. And he was a former Marine.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And he had done some undercover into biker clubs and stuff. And, man, I just, I was so fascinated.

[B]

That's badass.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Thanks for sharing that, man. Yeah. I'm always fascinated why people choose the most dangerous professions.

[A]

Well, I wasn't bad at it. Yeah. It's just like. Like the FBI.

The FBI I was in. Right. For 23 years. We're so diverse. We work so many things. You work everything. So I'm not the right guy for the Wall street undercover or the, you know, there's all kinds of stuff.

[B]

Wow. There's Wall street undercovers.

[A]

Well, I mean, we. We investigate everything. You got embezzlement, you've got white collar crime, you've Got cyber crime, you've got public corruption, you've got gangs, violet crime, criminal enterprise, La Costa Nostra. You've got all kinds of stuff. Domestic terrorism, international terrorism. I mean, we work everything.

[B]

Did you get to kind of pick where you wanted to focus on or they kind of just.

Yes and no?

[A]

Yeah, I'd say yes and no because what will happen is, is like a lot if somebody doesn't know you, once you get known, people will call you and say, hey, man, we'd like to. Would you? What do you think about doing this undercover? Yeah, so that can happen. But sometimes it's just a canvas, right? And that canvas will come out from headquarters and in an email form and it'll come to the undercover coordinator of each division. And then, you know, I was the undercover coordinator for from 08 to 21 and East Tennessee. But I'll see it and maybe I'll know somebody who would be good. And they didn't see it, I'd make sure I sent it to them or maybe I answer it. So, yeah, I'm interested. Sometimes you're the right person for the case and sometimes you're not.

[B]

Yeah. Holy crap. 28 years, man. A lot of missions. Which ones were the most difficult? Which ones do you think took the most out of you? The undercover missions?

[A]

Well, you know, the two years in the Outlaws. It's not so much that that case itself took it out of me because, I mean, look, riding around with a bunch of Neanderthals and wrestling over tables and drinking and riding motorcycles all day, I love that. That was fun. Being stripped of the basement, almost having a wire found, not so much. But. But there's a three year period that that case happened in, so that was a two year case. But for the three year period, I have been doing too much. I. I spread myself too thin. I stopped taking care of myself. Not necessarily the case. It's just that I took, I was taking that warrior mentality and applying it to every aspect of my life and it ended up not doing too well for me.

[B]

Got it. So you got in too deep.

[A]

Well, I just, I met my threshold one day. I. I physically and mentally crashed. I was done. I mean, I slept like over 16 hours a day for five days.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

And I wasn't, I wasn't depressed, I wasn't sick. I know what they both feel like. I was just that tired, so I crashed. And I had to figure out, okay, how did I get here? How can I, how am I ever going to go back to doing this stuff? Can I keep this from happening again. So that one, that one took a toll. That was a pivotal point. But as far as like working undercover, I mean the pedophile stuff's hard to work. Yeah, that's tough.

[B]

That's the one I feel like you can't come back from.

[A]

Right? Yeah, that's. Well, thankfully there's people that can work it and it not really have an adverse impact on their psyche really. But in the FBI, if you're working that stuff, you have to be psychologically assessed.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Which you should be. I mean, you should. I mean you're looking at some pretty horrific stuff.

[B]

Yeah. What's that test like? Is it like a written test or is it more in person?

[A]

Well, it's, it's the Safeguard assessment and it's. It was created by Jefferstone, AKA Donnie Brasco. The movie. Right. And Joe Pistone, he came back in the bureau. So Joe and Steve Ban, who was an FBI agent, but back his background was a clinical psychologist. They created the safeguard unit. So you get, you take all kinds of psychological tests. I mean some of them are some that everybody's had, but some are different. Right. And then those spit out some graph. They spit out some numbers on the graph. And then you're going to sit down with a psychologist for an hour or so and then you're going to sit down with somebody like the Stone or maybe even me.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Inexperienced, undercover. I kind of. You can't BS a BS or thing. So you can't you see a UC is what we say.

[B]

Can you BS a lie detector test, you think? I've heard some people claim at least that they can get through those.

[A]

It's been done.

[B]

Yeah. You think it's possible? Yeah. I guess it's just a matter of controlling your heartbeat, right?

[A]

I'm not a polygapher, so I don't want to over speak, but I mean because now they've got like a strap on your belly, a strap on your chest, a buck pad to tell if you're flinching and they got all these monitors on you and stuff. But yeah.

Yeah, I think it's. But I've seen people not lying fail them all the time. Yeah. So false what? A false positive was what it was.

[B]

I feel that Was interrogation a strength of yours? Were you good at getting information?

[A]

I was, I was really good at connecting with people. As a case agent, um. Because as a case agent and that's what you are first. I mean now under Molar he tried some crazy stuff like you're going to come into the FBI. And you're going to be cradle to grave intelligence. And that means you're going to go out and develop sources. I'm like, well, how the hell do you even know what you're looking for if you don't even know what it takes to have that source testify? I mean, we're trying to build cases on the criminal world, right? We got to. I mean, how do you know what you're supposed to do? You never even been a case agent, so that model was not good, in my opinion. I thought it sucked. But the only thing I'm required to be is an FBI agent. That's it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The firearms instructor, SWAT defensive tactics instructor, tactical instructor, undercover. Those are all collateral duties. Relief supervisors. All collateral duties.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

So that burnout I mentioned, I did that to myself.

[B]

Really?

[A]

I volunteered for all that stuff. Nobody made me do that. I volunteer for every bit of it. And I love doing more than one thing.

[B]

Okay, so they weren't like giving you strict guidelines and.

[A]

No, no. Well, you get, yes, you have strict guidelines, but it's like there's policies and stuff, but it's a. Collateral duty is voluntary.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Until the day they say you're a full time firearms instructor. Maybe you're at Quantico. You're back at Quantico. You're a full time firearms instructor.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

You might be a full time principal firearms instructor for the division and not have any cases, but until the day they say that you're supposed to be a case.

[B]

And the two years, was that longer than expected? Like, did you feel like it would take that amount of time?

[A]

No, because you go where the case takes you, you know, and if you're working, in my opinion, if you're working long term cases as a case agent and. Or as an undercover, one of the hardest decisions is always when the when to take it down.

[B]

Right. Because you make that call. Or is that like a group decision?

[A]

Depends. Really. The undercover doesn't. Okay. Now, if it's a. If it's something from my division and I'm working Tyler, or they're including me in for the decision. Yeah. But again, undercover's voluntary. I could say I'm out.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I'm probably gonna be blackballed and not get picked for a case for a while or ever again. Yeah. But it's. It's all voluntary. Interesting.

[B]

How close were you to doing that?

[A]

I don't know if I was ever really ever ready to quit. I got put on timeout about three times.

[B]

On that case or a different one?

[A]

Well, yeah. When I crashed at the end of the Outlaws thing, I self reported. I called Safeguard and I said, hey, I don't know what's going on. I'm. I'm scared. I think I'm crashing.

[B]

Yeah, well, I don't blame you after that you almost died. I mean, they were.

[A]

Well, I mean, I don't say die, but it's just like I was a walking zombie. I was. I didn't know. I found my threshold that day. I think it changes. I'm not trying to say I'm tougher than anybody else. There's. There's people out there that have done so much more. Men and women that have done so much more. But I found mine that day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I did the Ric Flair woo head first. I'm like, I'm good. Bam.

[B]

Yeah. Well, Joe Pistone's story, I mean, how many years was he?

[A]

Six.

[B]

Holy crap. And I saw the movie. I don't know how accurate it is, but he looked very accurate. Pretty accurate. Very stressed out, didn't know when they were gonna step in, you know.

[A]

That's real. Yeah. That's realistic.

[B]

Six years is crazy.

[A]

And, and that's why he had the idea to, to create this thing, to make sure. Because the Safeguard is really. It's what the word says. Right. It's there to guard the undercover. Or.

If you're looking at innocent images and stuff like that. Because what happened in the Bureau is people working in some images. Are they undercover? No. But headquarters may realize, and rightfully so, as these people need to be getting psychologically assessed. Yeah. Just for their own mental well being. Well, you know what? We've got this unit over here that does nothing but undercover. Why don't we start sending them to there? So you start getting. Because that's a specialized unit. And then they end up doing all that stuff and inundated and overworked and understaffed for. For the stuff they've got to do. But yeah, that's what it was really there for. To make sure you as a person, as an FBI agent aren't losing yourself. Because there's no case worth you losing your family, yourself, your health, your marriage, your job, you know, your life. There's no case worth that for sure. Now I will. I'll throw a caveat because I'm also an active shooter instructor. FBI and alert. Married. Got basically married each other in 2013 after the Sandy Hook. Sandy Hook School, Mass.

Department of justice from Obama all the way down. Said we need one entity in the Department of Justice to be the Front runner for active shooter training. Not knocking the other agencies out there, but the FBI has a SWAT team in every division, has a principal tactical instructor in every division. And you don't just make that, you have building blocks in order to be a principal tactical. In order to be a tactical instructor. They've changed some things now to get more people involved. But up until about what, five or so years ago, in order to be a tactical instructor, you have to be SWAT certified and you have to be an active firearms.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So those are two building blocks. Then you get that. So to become an active shooter instructor, you had to be a tactical instructor. So it was kind of a no brainer. And they picked us. And even though everything, everything funding was gutted, no training whatsoever, Obama down said, no, we need these people trained. So in 2013, me and probably 100 and maybe 30 other.

Tactical instructors for the FBI over five weeks, you know, these like whatever, 15 go this this week, 15 go this week. And you just keep going. We all got certified.

[B]

Holy dog.

[A]

So I, I went off on a little bit of a tangent there, but what I'm trying to say is there's no case worth losing your life and all that stuff. I said with the exception of if it's an active shooter event, even though I've been retired since 2021, I didn't drive here, but in my vehicle I've got a go bag, I've got everything ready to go. I still instructed. I'm now an adjunct instructor with alert. It's the national standard for training law enforcement active shooter response. But now that, that's different. If I have, if we have actionable intelligence that down the hall, people are dying. I gotta go.

[B]

Have you ever gotten a call like that?

[A]

I have not responded to a live active shooter. But.

I mean we had the Chattanooga shooting, the active shooter. And we all went there post after that and stayed down there helping cover leads and stuff because that was the Knoxville division that worked.

[B]

That there was a couple in Vegas recently. Oh yeah, there was one at a gym here. I don't know if you saw that one.

[A]

Yeah, dude, they're so. They're happening so many times now.

[B]

Yeah, it's nuts, dude. A police officer actually shout out to whoever that officer was ended up shooting that guy. And then there was one on campus UNLV like a year ago.

[A]

Yeah. Did that turn out legit or was that one that got called in?

[B]

I think someone. Yeah, I think he shot a couple people, if I'm not mistaken. Crazy, crazy times. We're in Right. And then obviously, with the Charlie Kirk stuff that just happened, it's just like, madness.

[A]

So I have somewhat of a theory.

[B]

I'd love to hear it.

[A]

And this is coming from years of being in the training environment. Yeah, right. I used to be the one getting trained. And you still get trained. You're always. I'm always. I can always learn. I love learning. I love spreading knowledge. I love gaining knowledge, even here I am at 54 years old. But over the years, you see, like, I think it's very natural for a parent to want their kid to do better than they ever did. Whether they had it good or not. You want your kid to have it better. And then we went through this whole regime where it was a lot of helicopter parenting, which, look, I'm not knocking it. You raise your family however you want to. But as far as being a trainer or somebody hiring law enforcement, you know, I'm talking to sheriff's offices and the local police departments, and we're all sitting around, like, not a campfire, but basically campfire conversations, saying, man, tell me about these cadets that are coming in now. What are they? Oh, nobody can ever speak to me that way. And you're like, then you don't need to become a cop because you're gonna get spit on, you're gonna get yelled at, cursed. And so you started seeing that, in my opinion, the helicopter parenting, which not necessarily a bad thing, but nobody ever really gets. Oh, my gosh, are you okay? You just fell over. Oh, you okay? Are you okay?

[B]

Right?

[A]

Well, that instills things. If anybody would study child psychology, you will learn where the brain's developing at certain years and whether or not at five years old, you should be playing a very, very graphic shoot them up game. No, you shouldn't. At five years old, you should not be watching slasher flicks. No, your brain's not set up for what are you doing. Right. So you see that, and then we move into everybody gets a trophy, so nobody loses. Well, that may be okay growing up, but when you get out in the real world, you're going to see that you don't always get your way. You're going to fail.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I started seeing that. And me and my peers and mentors and people I've been blessed mentor looking and going, what? What is going on? You know, you get people. And I'm like. So I started asking people, I'm like, look, I'm not saying you have to be former law enforcement, former military. I'm just asking, have you ever had to Work with another person to accomplish a goal ever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And have you ever lost? I was on a football team that lost every game.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

My junior year in high school, we were oh and 10. How do you deal with loss? So see, what I think happens is a lot of people get older and they've been, they haven't lost or they don't know what it's like to lose and come back from that. So they don't have, they haven't gone through that adversity and now they're a grown up and now they're going through adversity and everybody's nutting out. I think that's a lot of cancel culture to me. I mean, it's like you can't even, you can't even have a debate. You. Look, here's the thing, man. Sean, it's okay for you to like something I don't. Yeah, it's okay for me to like something you don't. We can still get along. You like to eat?

[B]

I love to eat.

[A]

There you go. Mammy too. You know, there's one right there, right off the bat. And it's just, it's unfortunately, in my opinion, we've gone so far to where people are just. They can't handle losing and they don't know how to deal with it and they think that you just got to go kill somebody. That's just ridiculous.

[B]

Did that, did that assassination really affect you? Because for me it was like, I mean, the guy's been on the show, I've been around a lot of his.

[A]

People and they rock my world.

[B]

Me up, honestly.

[A]

Yeah, it did me too. I was depressed. I was actually, I was depressed last week. I might have poured back a few too many. Yeah, last week. But you know, for me, active shooter instructor, tactical instructor. I've got so many videos where I've seen sniper shots. I got them all on my computer. I show them for training and stuff.

[B]

How tough was that shot for the average person watching? Like, was that a really difficult shot to make? You don't think so?

[A]

Not with a 30 off 6 with a scope on it. If it's sided in.

[B]

Okay. Because they were saying like 150 meters, right?

[A]

Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, if I've got, if I've got, I mean my AR at my house. I've got a, I've got a, I've got optics on it. I've got a three time magnifier.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, you're trained. I'm saying, like, I'm trying to say.

[A]

Is if I've got that zeroed in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I've zeroed it in for you. Really? As long as you're not jerking the trigger and you can lay still, all you gotta do is put the dot where you want to shoot.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Depending on now there, you can get into trajectory and distances and stuff like that.

Which is above my pay grade.

[B]

But I think. I think the more impressive thing is the fact he got away right than the shot.

[A]

Well, again, it's not a presidential thing going on. Right. Or somebody that's. That has a boatload of security.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I mean, the exit route was pretty quick. I mean, yeah, fire the shot if you watch the video and then just run across the rooftop and drop down. Right. I don't know.

[B]

Crazy, man. Yeah. No, that me up, though, dude. To be honest.

[A]

I mean, look at the. Look at the. The Parkland school shooting. So that kid shot all the people and then drops his gear and walks out with the kids they found. He. He blended in and walked out.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

They found him walking down the street. That's crazy.

[B]

So, yeah, man. Crazy times. We're in. Can't even send your kids to school without worrying about their.

[A]

No, I personally think. I mean, of course, I'm a law and order guy, clearly. But I think that you got to take the opportunities away.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

And. Well, it could be something as simple as. I mean, maybe not these days, because cops aren't really respected near as much as they used to be. But putting a cop on that corner. I'll give you an example as a cop. Usually work side jobs because you don't get paid anything. Yeah. So if you want more money, you got to go work side jobs. We had one that was, like, a fun part. So you could go putt, putt. You can play video games, you could ride go karts at the batting cages, all that stuff. And I was a younger cop in uniform, and I lucked out on getting picked up to go work the side job with the older guy. Older cop that was there, he said, listen, you see people mummed around, and they're not spending money. And if you see a bunch of kids over in the corner, you know, kind of congregating, and they're not. He goes, just go busted up. That's what I mean by taking away the opportunity. Doesn't mean that they're over there planning anything bad, but you can literally go over there and go, hey, what you kids doing? Why. Why at this park, this theme park thing? Why are all y' all over here in the dark corner.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, is it just because you're underage and smoking cigarettes? Okay, no big deal. But what do you. You know what I mean?

[B]

I wouldn't mind that if we could station some cops at campuses. Yeah, I wouldn't mind that at all.

[A]

So you. Maybe you take away the opportunity, but. Yeah, it's just. It's just crazy.

[B]

Yeah. These days, I mean, you can't have a debate, dude.

[A]

No.

[B]

You can't debate someone anymore. Like, no one's gonna go to campuses and debate.

[A]

So I grew up different. And it's gonna sound like tough guy talk, but it's not tough guy talk. I'm like, if somebody comes up and they're yelling in my face to where spit is flying out of their mouth and hit me in the face, I'm probably gonna do something.

[B]

You're old school, they call it.

[A]

Yeah. I'm gonna probably go. And then when you do it, they're like, what makes you think you can grab a hold of me like that? I'm like, what makes you think you can come talk like that to somebody?

[B]

Your generation through hands.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My generation's keyboard warriors.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

We're talking on tick tock.

[A]

Oh, man. My last. Whatever. Years in the FBI, I felt like I was online for my undercovers. I felt like I was online way more than I was meeting people face to face.

[B]

Yeah. And it's. It's. It's actually interesting because some people get affected by that more.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, listen, right now, on all extremist views, whether you're far left extremist, far right extremist, radical jihad. There. There are tons of kids being radicalized online.

[B]

Yeah. These undercover groups, right?

[A]

Yes. All online. You go. They go to encrypted apps. I'm not saying Discord is terrible and everybody on Discord's bad. But. But bad people go to Discord. Telegram, Riot, 3, 4chan, 8chan, 12chan. I'm trying to think.

[B]

Even. Even gaming apps.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Roblox, Fortnite. They're talking on there and all.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

They're blending in.

[A]

Yep. What I usually say, I said it the other day when I was speaking up in Pittsburgh, is, look, if your kids are playing Roblox and Minecraft, awesome. If they're using a headset, awesome. You need to know who they're talking to.

[B]

Facts.

[A]

Yeah. People go there.

[B]

It's so easy.

[A]

Just new nihilistic extremism. It's not even white supremacy. It's just there. I mean, it's still. Still kind of in line with acceleration is because they want, they want anarchy, they want society to fall, they want society collapse. And I don't know, they think they're going to take over or start women or whatever because a lot of them do, but. Or however. Vice versa. But this like 764 group and stuff like that, they're going on and they're getting a lot of young boys.

And, and girls. Yeah, but a lot of boys. And they're getting them to do. They might get them to do something sexual, kind of groom them.

[B]

Geez.

[A]

And then they start sex starting them or extorting them. And then they're like, they're having live chat groups, live watch groups where they've got somebody under, under the thumb saying we're gonna out you, we're gonna send this to your parents or whatever if you don't do this. And, and I mean they're cutting themselves. Point system, they called it a bane. Like if you slice a bane open, you know it's white like a navy bean.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's what your fat looks like when you slice through it. And they call it a bean cut. They've got people. This, this is. And again, this is worldwide because you've got that. You can hop in that, you can hop in that chat group, in that peer to peer network and you can be talking to somebody in what, Australia?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Norway. Doesn't matter. And.

They recently picked up a kid out of. I say kid, I'm 54, but out of Germany who supposedly have something allegedly he's being charged with, has murders under his belt, having people to, to all to take their own life on video. They're huge in the pedophilia, sexual abuse, animal abuse.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And like I said, some of them.

[B]

Have a point system that is dark man. That's a dark web stuff, right?

[A]

Yeah, that's some sick stuff.

[B]

Oh my gosh, that's terrible.

[A]

A lot of Satanism involved in it and stuff.

[B]

Yeah, I know you had a dealing with that. Right. You exposed a satanic ritual.

[A]

That would be the base case. Yeah, the base case. I. That was like. So the book Pale Horse was. That was my code name in that. In that group.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I came in as White Warrior, but once I was in the group I changed it to Pale Horse. Got it.

And I did again. This takes a village. It's not me, right. I'm the undercover. But there's. I mean there's so many case teams and analysts and everything working on this stuff. Headquarters. But yeah, we started finding out about some pretty radical white supremacy Stuff online. And they were recruiting, they were actively recruiting. So I, I responded to a recruitment thing.

[B]

What was that process like that was.

[A]

On Gab and they were posting on Gab and it would be like, save your race, join the base. And it would be like we're paramilitary or we're survivalist group. So picture like a doomsday prepper meets militia meets white supremacy.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

But once I got in there, the accelerationist view, which is often referred to as siege culture, off of the book Siege by James Mason, who's a longtime white supremacist. He created Atomwaffen Division. I infiltrate the base and I find out that accelerationism is this belief system, is that they don't believe there's a political solution that can save the white race. They believe society is going to collapse on its own or through man made events and they want to speed it up. And when they talk about speeding up the collapse, they are, they're talking like guerrilla warfare tactics like taking down a power grid, poisoning water system, derailing the train, killing anti fascists, leftist Jews, non whites.

But you know, that's what I infiltrated because that's what my skill set led me to. But I've got peers and mentors and people I've mentored that have infiltrated the radical jihad. They're being radicalized online, or far left extremism. They're being radicalized online. A lot of them crazy. And then it still goes back to.

A lot of that human need to belong. So go back in the 80s to your cults, 70s Colts, 80s and 90s gangs. It's a lot of times, I'm not saying this is the norm, but a lot of times back then you'd see it was a kid from a broken home. But I'll tell you what I did see is at least in the base and some other accelerationist type neo Nazi groups.

Most likely been bullied, social outcast, can't get a partner. And they just get on that and dive down rabbit holes of hate on that long.

[B]

And there's a lot of people in that camp these days.

[A]

Yeah. So when we went, when we infiltrated the base in 2019, the base and Adam Waffen, they were like the two big accelerationist groups.

[B]

No.

[A]

And it was considered kind of cringe in the white nationalist movement. But we arrested everybody in the base in January of 2020.

[B]

How many people are there?

[A]

I think we took out, let's see.

It might have been around 12.

[B]

Oh, it's kind of small.

[A]

Yeah. It's not like huge numbers. But. But it was enough to put a ripple. Got it. Because what happened is, is I got in there and gained trust. And we started under uncovering murder plots and then more murder plots, and then there was a group. So you have sales. So maybe I should say this. The base translated to Arabic is Al Qaeda.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

So Al Qaeda's MO was 3 to 5 man sales. C L. I know. I got a country accent. 3 to 5 man sales all over the world, training, waiting for that phone call for new day. The basis mo 3 to 5 man sales. All over the world, training, waiting for the boogaloo, waiting for that call for the D day. Not a lot of forethought and afterthought with these groups. You know, I remember one conversation I had. I'm like, I heard you. I mean, we're neo Nazis, right? We want the. We want the race war, blah, blah, blah. I'm playing along and I'm like, you know, I heard you guys talk about we're going to have our own ethno state. Whether we've got a section in the Appalachian mountains. The base was already setting up another one in the upper peninsula of Michigan. The leader of the base had property in Pacific Northwest. I said, but, you know, I haven't heard anything about procreation. I'm like, you know, I haven't seen any of you guys dating anybody.

[B]

You know, was it all guys?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like. I'm like, you know, I'm married, but ain't nobody messing with my wife. And I was like, so what is your plan? And they're. Well, they missed a beat. Oh, we're just gonna. With him. And I went. I said, oh, you're gonna rape them? And they said, yeah. And I said, you guys don't have a lot of experience with women, do you? And they're like, well. And I go, I might work for a little while, but at some point you're gonna have to go to sleep. You're probably gonna wake up missing parts you went to bed with. I'm like, well, you. That doesn't even make any sense. But wow. Yeah. So one of the things in the base case is.

Much like if you looked at the white supremacy movement when they were using the words Christian identity, that cannot be confused with Christianity. They take the story of the Bible and they twist the living crap out of it till it meets their ideology of white supremacy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if you hear Christian identity, Church of Jesus Christ, Christian. That is not Christianity. They are not Christ followers. Per the Bible. So when you hear a lot of base members or neo Nazis saying they're pagans, same difference. They're taking paganism and they're twisting the crap out of it to fit their ideology. So that's kind of what the base did. And I was pretending to be a pagan.

And per. White supremacy Pagan. Right. I got great friends who are pagans, and they are very peaceful, and I love them to death.

But they would take the story like the wild hunt. The wild hunt in Norse mythology is essentially Odin and some other gods going out and laying the smackdown. All their enemies. So we did some blots, which is the ritual ceremony in paganism. I'd done some. And, you know, pray to your gods. And we'd cut ourselves and bleed on the wood with the runes. And it's not just runes. There's white supremacy symbols on there, too, so don't get confused.

[B]

So you had to cut yourself.

[A]

Yeah. And bleed on it. And then holy. And then we would light it on fire and pray until the fire went out. Stuff like that.

But by. By Halloween of 2019, I. I was. I was. We had a little hate camp. Basically, what it was. There was about 12 of us there, and it was in Georgia in the cell that I was a member of, and we were out there, and I fell asleep after we did training all day, and then this huge cold front came in. It was like the coldest day so far of that year. Yeah, it jumped like 40 to 50 degrees. So I actually. Actually, I had. I wasn't prepared. I had to go to Walmart and buy some BASE layers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I. I dozed off in my truck, letting my phone charge up, and I wake up to them pounding on the window. Pale horse, pale horse, you got to get up. You got to get up. And I'm like, okay, what's going on, man? What's going on? They're like, like, remember us talking about a sacrifice? I'm like, yeah. They go, we got the goat. I'm like, what do you mean, you got a goat? And I walk out there, and they had gone not that far down the road and jumped a fence and stole one of three goats. Almost got caught by the guy. I'm glad nobody got hurt. Like the guy. Yeah, this place. I'm sorry. They stole his goat, but they had him. The guy, the. The. The member. They went by a code named Eisenhower. Eisen was going to be leading the block that night, and.

They said, hey, man, we're going to go sacrifice this goat. And I remember reaching out to the Team through a listening device. I'm like, hey, I'm pretty sure we're getting ready to get out here. This killers go. And I can't think of a reason to blow the whole case right now, even though I'm thinking it's a misdemeanor if they stole an animal. But I'm okay. I don't know. You know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But what I did say is, I said, I know you guys can hear me. If you don't want me to do this or partake in this, you need to let me know and I'll do whatever I can to get out of it. And I heard nothing. Whoa. So I said my last words on the. On that device were like, I guess I'm going down in the woods. Holy. We went down in the woods and.

I told you what the wild hunt was. Norse mythology wise. The wild hunt to the base was this sacrifice was going to be a sacrifice to Odin. It was going to be in Valhalla. He was going to kick off the wild hunt. But the wild hunt to the base was ridding the world of non whites, anti fascist, leftist, definitely Jews.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And that was going to be the start of it. And we ended up like the guy leading the blot. Eisen tried to. He thought he was going to chop his head off. We were all in a circle around it after praying and everything. And then he went to hit it on the back strap with this big blade. And it didn't even. It didn't do nothing. It was like. All you hear is. And then the. Then the guy's like. And I'm like, oh, man, this is going to get bloody. And then somebody asked if somebody had a weapon, and one of them did. Actually, the person who was least qualified to be holding the firearms in that group was the one who had the pistol.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And we were like, what the hell are you doing with the pistol? Pistol. So they took it from him and. And then Eisen was going to put one in the goat's head. He chambers around, kind of points towards the goat, turns his head, and that's when I'm yelling. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's the instructor coming out. I'm like, all right. I'm like. He's like. He's like, what? I go, dude, we're all on our knees in a circle. Look at what you're shooting at. Too much to ask. Yeah. Gonna shoot one of us. And he looked and put one in his head. Even on the recording, you could hear it hit the ground and you think you're done? It was still kicking. He had named it Gar because his middle name was Garfield and his grandfather was Garfield. And I remember at one point, he was like, before we went down there, I said, is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat? And he said, don't you let the goat hear you say that. This goat needs to know it's loved. It's going to Valhalla. This is the kickoff of basically a race war, the wild hunt. And I'm like, all right, I'll just push that baseball down. I'll never bring it up again, you know? And so the shoot. He shoots it in the head, but it's still kicking, like, two, three minutes later. I know it's probably, like, after convulsions or whatever, but I'm like, man, why don't you go ahead and put another one in it? He's. Now I'm pretty sure it's dead. I said, well, you know, we want the goat to be loved, right? I'm using his words again, like, you know, for the love of the goat, we want the goat to show up and. And be happy with Odin and Valhalla. So he puts another one in, and somebody you can hear on the court, and somebody's like, oh, it's definitely dead now. So you think you're done, Sean? No. No, we're not done. Then they slice the goat's throat, fill up a cup full of blood, and everybody's still in a circle on their knees, with the exception of me, because it's pitch black in the middle of the woods.

Late in the evening, and I'm shining a flashlight for Eisen, who had brought a sheet of acid because he figured it would help everybody enter the shaman. And I'm like, I think it's a little different. I think you're just actually gonna get high. But that's cool. Whatever you want to call it. And as he's going around, he's tearing a tab off, and some people never even done it before. And I'm like, what are you doing? I'm like, what? We're out here. I'm out here with these crazy white supremacists, and they're armed, and we got machine submachine guns and a lot of bullets and stuff and plate carriers and everything else you can think of. And it's like.

He. They go to one, and. And he puts the tab under his tongue, and he's like, is it bad if I've had a bit? They take. He goes ahead and takes it. He swallows it. He goes, is it bad if I drank a beer before? I'm like, it's a little late, but late. I mean, should ask that before he even did it. And we're going around, and we're going around. Not everybody did it, but almost everybody did. And what you do is after you take the hit, acid, or if you don't take a hit, acid, as you chug that blood from the go whites. Yeah. So I was last, but maybe Odds and was last, but me and. Me and Eisen were last because he's going around. So I'm shot on the flashlight. And.

I remember one guy, he was like, really wrestling with it. He was like, oh, I mean, you know, I had a long drive. I mean. I mean, I should have do it. Should I not do it? I aim in the face of the flashlight. I'm like, bro, you don't have to do anything you don't want to do. Anybody making you do it? I ain't doing it. I already told them, don't even try to slip that crap in my drink. Because what I told them is I'm like, just know if I go on a bad trip, I'm taking you all with me, you know? So it gets around to me. It's my turn to drink the blood, and I look down. Sean, it's all clotting. It's coagulating because it's been sitting there a minute and I'm looking at it going, man, I really don't want to drink this. And I think it was Pestilence in the group that gave me an out. So I took two fingers, put it all deep in the blood, sucked all the blood off. That way I didn't have to swallow a chunk.

And then we go. Then the next day of training was completely wrecked because everybody was high on acid. But by Saturday, everybody's back and we're training all day long. But we're also building propaganda videos. We are recording non stop. And the rule was, is the. The next video has to be better than the last video because we're still trying to recruit. So by Saturday night, we go down and we're lighting bonfires and.

Burning holy Bibles, burning the American flag. People are screaming, death to your Jewish God. F. F America. Death to America. That wasn't exactly fun for me. Yeah. You know.

But by the end of that week, end that weekend, a long weekend, I had gained even more trust. And that's when they were like, you think we. I think we trust Pale Horse. And I said, what are you talking About. So put your phone in airplane mode. We're going to walk over here and talk. And that's when we started kind of getting an idea they were. They were plotting to do some things. But eventually I went down there and we found out that he was really planning on killing people.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And it got so detailed that we canvassed this. This couple. They believe the couple were a very active members of the antifa group. And we case the house a couple of different times. I was able to slow them down.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because the planning was pretty terrible. I'm like. Compared to everything else you see, like, there would be a sheet they hand you. Hey, here's your bugout rules. Or here's the rules for putting up stickers and flowering, which is. They're big on that. Like, you're down there and I'm spraying the glue and you slap it up there. Join the race. Save your. Save your race during the base. And there's a QR code. When you scan that QR code, it takes you straight to bit shoot to a propaganda video.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Be a part of us kind of thing. Join the brotherhood kind of thing.

And.

We case that house several times. But it got so detailed. And these are the members coming up with this. So detailed that it was like, hey, we're going to go to a campsite. We're going to leave all of our digital footprint there. Everything stays there. We're going to go to our pay by the hour motel. We're going to scrub all our dead skin off. We're going to Vaseline any facial hair that's showing. We're going to duct tape sleeves to gloves, pants to boots. So you're not leaving all to thwart any kind of DNA in law enforcement.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And then it ended up. It changed a few times, but it ended up to where they wanted me and the cell leader, tmb, to kind of go through the house and kill everybody while Helter Skelter held guard at the window. And then Pestilence was going to set the house on fire and burn it down. Then it got to the point to where Helter Skelter is like, hey, I want to pop my cherry. And I'm like, wow, what are you talking about? I mean, something different to me, for my generation. I'm like. And he's like, oh, I actually want to put a bullet in a person's head. I've been waiting for this for at least two years.

[B]

Geez.

[A]

It's like, okay, all right, well, no problem. And then I started finding out that that TMB the leader of that cell, had him and probably Pestilence, I don't know who, but they'd already been putting together a list of, like, lefty journalists, anchors on tv. I'm like, so you guys are actually. We're only actually planning on going out and killing people on TV and. And news and journalists and stuff. They're like, yeah, well, that's a good thing. We're doing this couple first. Then we can kind of see. I was able to slow them down because I just pointed out how pissed poor the planning was compared to what you say we got to do to go put a sticker up on something. I'm like, why is that so detailed? And this is like, hey, we're just going to go kill somebody. It. He's like, I'm tired of waiting. And I go, well, let's be smart about it. And my background for that case was I was a site survey specialist. I'm like, dude, I can. I said, do you even know anything about this fed? Do we know if they got kids? We know anything? No. And I'm like, dude, this is what I do for a living. I said, I can sit here and start pulling demographics and this, that, and the other, because I'm looking at property for investors and. And then let me work my magic. So we were able to slow it down a little bit. Meanwhile, another sale in the Delaware and Maryland areas were looking at a guns right rally that was going to be happening in January of 2020. And their idea was to pop off some rounds into the crowd because you're going to have 3 percenters, militia types, which is not illegal. You're going to have protesters there, you're going to have cops there. And their idea was what? This is the kickoff to the Boogaloo. What if we put a couple of rounds on some people? Then the cops are going to think it's these people and they're going to think it's them. It's just going to be chaos. That could be the kickoff to the Boogaloo.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And that those. Some of those cats. The FBI did some amazing work, man. The. The case agent out of Baltimore, Rasheed, man, and that AUSA Thomas, they were smoking it, man. They were doing some great work. Got a wiretap. We're listening in and watching the apartment of two of the members. And you want to hear some crazy stuff. Crazy like we're gonna break out the Saints. Be like the Saints. So your listeners may not know, but in that world of white supremacy and accelerationists, they have a Leaderboard of the Saints. Their saints are mass shooters.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So in the tactical world and when we're teaching law enforcement, we don't ever want to mention their names because we don't want to give them any more. Yeah, they don't need it anymore. But just say that the Christchurch shooter and then you had the. I think it was the Norway. Norway's at the top. So it'll be like 77. 0 and then Christchurch shooters after that. Whatever. And it goes down to the Charleston church shooter to a Tree of Life shooter. And then it says, what are you going to do to make the leaderboard? So on the. On the anniversary of the Charleston shooting or the anniversary of the tree. Tree of Life shooting, it'll be like, hey, Happy Saint. The shooter's last name day.

[B]

That's nuts.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So there's a kill leaderboard.

[A]

Yeah. What are you going to do to make the board? And like, there was a. There was one active shooter. It was white supremacist. I think he was on 4chan before he went active.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or 8chan. But he only got one round off. I think he only shot one person. I don't know if he shot somebody or didn't get. Didn't shoot anybody, but he only got one round off. If you're in those chat groups, man, they were all. They were piling on that dude. They're like, you only got one. You can't even handle a weapon. You could have killed so many more people. People. But like you said, a lot of this keyboard warrior stuff, and that's the hard part for FBI working domestic terrorism. There's no domestic terrorism charge.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They don't even declare them a terrorist organization in the United States.

[B]

Well, they just declared Antifa one. Right. Or Trump did, I think.

[A]

Did they?

[B]

I think yesterday. Yeah.

[A]

Well, then. Then it should start then. If that's what they're doing, then. I know they said. I know they said cartels are terrorism. Yeah, that's outside the country. We've always had that. Right. You know, FTOs, foreign terrorist organizations. But if they're saying antifa is.

[B]

I think yesterday I got enough.

[A]

And you need to go ahead and say 764.

Whatever Patriot Front, whoever's out there doing that kind of stuff.

[B]

Is 764the Nazi one or.

[A]

No, that's the nihilistic one I was telling you about. That gets people on chat groups to cut themselves and harm themselves and harm animals and do sexual acts on kids and people and snuff films and stuff like that.

[B]

That is nuts.

[A]

Sick.

[B]

So yeah, you were able to delay the. What was that group called? The base.

[A]

The base.

[B]

Yeah, the base. And then your. Your guy stepped in and arrested them all.

[A]

Yeah, well, it was a. We were working it. It was again, for me, it's divine intervention for all those stars to line up and the planets to line up for us to be able to not burn this part and get enough evidence on everybody to take them and thwart everything. Yeah, it worked out really well.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I was going non stop there at the end.

[B]

Yeah. Well done, man. Before they got to murder anyone that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Because I mean like they were talking about like one of them had a 6.5 Creedmoor.

[B]

What's that?

[A]

It's. It's a. It's like a sniper.

[B]

Oh God.

[A]

But very. With very little kick. It's a nice gun, but had a six thousand dollar thermal scope on it.

[B]

Holy.

[A]

Now that guy had a job. But most of the people in the base were young.

Didn'T have like a steady job.

No girlfriends. A lot of them didn't have cars. But they've got plate carriers. The same plate carriers the FBI wears. Cry precision.

Ars. Some of them are ghost ars. Like they, they made a ghost gun. Pistols, tons of ammo. They call it your battle rattle. Your gun belt, what you're gonna wear, you know. And they all wore flecktar and camouflage because flecktor is a German pattern. You know, they drink a lot of Jagermeister, I guess because it's German.

[B]

Damn. That is nuts, man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where did they communicate?

[A]

Well, gab was where I got recruited. But once I got in, I was told to. I had Proton. Proton mail account. But once I got in and answered all the questions over a week, period, I was instructed to download wire.

[B]

Why?

[A]

It's kind of like WhatsApp call. I mean a lot less effective. I mean it was harder to use. But you can do. You can, you can have our own chat groups. We can DM each other, we can have the main group channel, but we can DM each other. We can do phone calls on it, stuff like that.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is ProtonMail actually pretty secure?

[A]

I think so. It is. Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

As far as I know. Damn.

[B]

Because I never know. I hear like certain apps are encrypted like Telegram and WhatsApp, but you never know.

[A]

Yeah. So that, that's kind of the whole thing, right? It's like, is it encrypted if they believe it's encrypted and is the base outside the United States? Because in their mind, if they're trying, trying to twine. If they're trying to thwart.

Law enforcement detection, then they think if it's based out of Sweden, can the Fed subpoena Sweden and subpoena going to. Is Sweden going to answer that subpoena?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah, probably. Probably not. But that's. I'm not saying everybody on this bad for I make anybody angry, but I just know that bad people go there.

[B]

It's just a platform. Right?

[A]

Yeah. I say this on a lot of interviews. It's like, look, man, in my world, I just want you to understand that there are evil people on this planet that want to do evil things to good people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's been pretty much that way since the beginning of time.

[B]

Yeah. I hate to be negative, but I don't think these groups are going to stop.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think they're going to just.

[A]

Well, I'm an optimist and I'm a glasses half full guy. So like a question that comes up a lot when I'm on these. The war on drugs. Do you think it's winnable? I'm probably going to make a lot of people mad who worked, but I've worked in pretty much my entire law enforcement career in one form or another. That was a drug nexus and almost everything I did. No, I don't think so. Because the supply and demand, now we can slow it down. We can slow it down. We can take off huge shipments. Unless you just want to lock the border altogether. But it's a. It's a cat and mouse game. They're going to try to figure out a way to get it, and we're going to try to figure out a way to stop it. But when it's a wide open border and you can just walk across and do it, I'm like, we don't even know what's in here. Yeah. I lived on the border. I worked as an FBI agent for six and a half years in McAllen, Texas.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I worked cartel stuff day in and day out.

[B]

Was that under Obama?

[A]

Man, when I got down there was Obama. It might have been Bush when I got down there.

[B]

Oh, Bush, Wow.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It was Bush when I got down there. Because I went down there right after 9 11.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And there were still a sign in New York City when 911 happened.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you were in New York City when it happened?

[A]

The day of 9 11, I was undercover in San Antonio, Texas. But as soon as I could fly, I flew back.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you were, you weren't there that day? No, what about that? Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I always found it crazy how, like, certain people, like, there's that theory. Burnt toast theory.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Have you heard of that? It's. It came from 9 11, I think it's like someone burnt their toast, and they ended up not making it to the towers that day.

[A]

For me, I'll call it divine intervention.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Something crazy about that, because I was in. I was in World Trade center at least once a week. Holy.

[B]

So you easily could have been there. That could have.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But I. I was undercover. I got. I was working straight third shift hours, and I got. I got to the hotel room, and I have one or two Jack and Cokes, ate something, passed out. That was my Emma. And then I wake up, like, one o', clock, go hit the gym and get ready for the night. Yeah. But I remember being asleep. Nothing. Like, I woke up and I'm like, why am I waking up? And I'm like, what time is. I'm like, man, I even been asleep that long. And I saw my phone just going nuts. And I'm like, what's going on? And I think these are even flip phone days. Yeah. Right. 9 11. And I'm like, I got all these missed calls and stuff. I started listening to the messages, and I go, oh. I cut the TV on. The first tower had already been hit.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But I saw the second tower get hit. So I started reaching out to people I knew. Yeah. And for whatever reason, who knows if it was because they were both FBI phones or what I was able to get through because they were getting no comms.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

In that area, because there's just so much going on. But if I got a hold of you, you would say. What you would say to me is, hey, Scott. Or Country. My nickname was Big Country. Like, Country. I'm good, but could you do me a favor and call my mom, my dad, and my wife, give me their name and numbers? So that's what I did the rest of the day. One of them went back to sleep. I was calling. And that's a. That's a weird transition because everybody sees what's going on, and you got to introduce yourself on the call saying, hey, it's a Special Agent Scott Payne, FBI. And then quickly, get it in. Everything's okay, you know, your son's all right. I'm calling for them kind of thing.

[B]

That's awesome. Well, check out the book, guys. If you're watching this, where else can people find you, man?

[A]

All my social media stuff is pretty much at Scott Payne Big Country.

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

Yeah. So.

Instagram, LinkedIn, X threads. I might as well go ahead and get Facebook. I got them all on there.

[B]

All right, check them out, guys. Thanks for your time.

[A]

Thank you, buddy.

[B]

Appreciate it. See you guys.

I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.