Sharay Hayes: Why Older Rich Men Secretly Hire Younger Guys for Their Wives | DSH #1690

Summary

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Digital Social Hour – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Sharay Hayes: Why Older Rich Men Secretly Hire Younger Guys for Their Wives
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Sharay Hayes
Air Date: December 19, 2025
Episode #: DSH #1690

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Episode Overview

In this unfiltered and revealing conversation, Sean Kelly sits down with Sharay Hayes—a former male stripper, author, and key witness in the high-profile Diddy and Cassie trial. The episode delves into the hidden world of elite sexual dynamics, performance anxiety and erectile dysfunction among men, what it’s really like working in the adult entertainment industry, as well as inside perspectives on celebrity scandals and the legal system. Sharay discusses why older wealthy men sometimes hire younger men for their wives, breaks down the psychological and biological roots of male sexual health challenges, and recounts the media fallout and courtroom drama stemming from the Diddy trial. The exchange is raw, honest, and peppered with humor, making taboo subjects relatable and informative.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Elite Men Hire Younger Men for Their Wives

• Sharay explains it’s "super common for guys to hire other dudes to sleep with their girlfriend" when there’s a significant age gap and the older partner can't keep up with the younger woman's sexual peak. (00:00, 19:13)
• Control is central: husbands prefer to orchestrate these arrangements themselves to avoid emotional complications or the threat of infidelity outside the marriage. (20:04–20:33)
• Quote:

  “If you just send your 45-year-old hot wife out to find a lover right now... she can catch feelings, they can fall in love... So these guys say, well, I can't keep up but if I find the guys to keep her happy... she's happy and I don't have to worry about the divorce.” — Sharay Hayes (20:04–20:33)

2. Male Sexual Health: Myths, Realities & Solutions

• Erectile Dysfunction: Over 50% of ED cases are mental, not physical. Anxiety-induced cortisol constricts blood vessels, making pills ineffective if the real cause is psychological. (01:53–03:10)
• Testosterone: Free testosterone, not total testosterone, drives libido. Diets like keto, fasting, or under-eating can tank free T, impacting sex drive even if total T is normal. (04:20–05:59)
• Stigma & Solutions:
  • Most men won't seek help, so Sharay wrote his book to be "the conversation you don't want to have with anybody else." (03:55)
  • Last-resort fixes like implants exist but the industry pushes expensive pills and products over addressing root causes. (06:42–06:59)
• Quote:

  “If I think failure, then I’m gonna experience failure.” — Sharay Hayes (08:56)

3. Life as a Male Stripper: Ego, Economics, and Reality Checks

• Sharay started stripping at 22, turning it from a side hustle into a 30-year career, now mostly running events. (09:39–11:06)
• The allure isn't just financial—ego boosts from crowds of women shouting are unmatched:

  “You can give me 450 grandmothers. If they’re screaming I’m hot, I’m happy to be there.” (13:19)

• Attractive female ratios at shows mirror real life more than the 'every girl is hot' fantasy; out of 500 women, maybe 50 are "extremely attractive." (12:14–13:19)
• Regular club life disappoints after the pedestal effect of being on stage:

  “Now you put me in a regular club and I’m like, this sucks.” (14:57)

4. Behind the Curtain: Celebrity Parties & Secret Arrangements

• The internet massively changed the industry—requests now come via Google searches rather than word of mouth for male entertainers. (16:03–16:53)
• The “Diddy and Cassie” scenario: Sharay only realized who the clients were much later, piecing it together after seeing a hotel welcome screen. (18:00–18:21)
• High-profile clients go to great lengths for secrecy with NDAs, veils, and careful vetting. (17:07–17:34)

5. The Diddy & Cassie Trial: Testimony, Public Perception & Personal Fallout

• Sharay discusses how being a key witness affected his life and business. There’s supportive public opinion, but also negative PR and confusion about his involvement. (21:30–22:55)
• Trial outcomes: He didn’t expect convictions for racketeering or trafficking, given the level of consent involved, but saw that transporting men for prostitution was “clear.” (23:15–24:10)
• Settlement details: Sharay breaks down how lawsuits often target business entities because settlements are easier through insurance than personal assets. (26:05–27:32)
• Legal system pressure:

  “Law is a fraternity... [attorneys will] protect their relationship before doing the absolute best [for you].” (29:07)

• Federal witness prep expects witnesses to answer questions “in a way that could seem like there was abuse,” but Sharay resisted broad or misleading testimony. (30:15–32:36)

6. Legal Risks & The Modern Male: Evidence, Consent, and Protection

• Recording encounters is vital for successful men facing potential allegations. Sharay shares how even an audio from an Apple Watch could protect against false claims. (45:35–47:50)
• NDAs are not enough; once things go criminal, they’re void. (46:26)
• On famous assault cases (Tyson, Tupac):

  “If he was recording it... could be a completely different scenario. And as a man, I want every scenario to prove my innocence 100%.” (48:20)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the psychological roots of ED:

  “Nothing outweighs the mind... you might struggle, and then two hours later, I’m watching Sportscenter with like the boner of life.” — Sharay Hayes (02:55–03:11)

• On ego and male entertainers:

  “You walk into a place with 500 women... could be 450 like Saint Bernards... if they’re screaming I’m hot, I’m happy.” (13:15–13:19)

• On elite party invitations:

  “In terms of getting propositioned for these exclusive parties... those are constant... Google search.” (15:48–16:10)

• On dealing with the pressure of testifying:

  “By the time I got to stand, I was shaking. Like, I kept it cool, but I was like, yo, this is, yeah. Crazy.” (33:19)

• On the high-profile culture:

  “Here it is, right? I’m somebody that, because I’m part of this... I’m possibly infamously famous for the rest of my life out of association.” (43:40–43:53)

• Advice for men:

  “Every successful man should record just about every encounter... What would you rather be? The rich guy who has the video, or the guy on the stand?” (45:35–46:33)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• The hiring of men for wives: 00:00, 19:13–20:33
• ED is mostly mental, not physical: 01:49–03:29
• Breakdown of testosterone, libido, and diet: 04:20–06:05
• Life as a male stripper, ego, and economic realities: 09:39–14:45
• Celebrity clients and exclusive parties: 15:40–18:28
• Diddy and Cassie trial mechanics: 21:15–30:12
• On legal strategy, settlements, and witness prep: 26:03–32:36
• Recording as self-protection strategy: 45:35–47:50

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Where to Find Sharay Hayes

• Book: In Search of Freezer Me ("available on Amazon, all major platforms") (49:10)
• Instagram & TikTok: @getpunished

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Tone & Concluding Thought

Unapologetically candid, the conversation blends humor, hard-hitting truths, and Sharay’s first-hand insight into taboo topics—offering both entertainment and valuable knowledge for men about sex, relationships, fame, legal pitfalls, and modern masculinity.

Final advice: "If you're struggling with anything, [my book] will help you out." (49:12)

Transcript

[Charay Hayes]

Super common for guys to hire other dudes to sleep with their girlfriend.

[Interviewer]

I like the elite level, you're saying.

[Charay Hayes]

Usually in a range of a minimum, what appears to be 20 years older than. So you get this guy that maybe met as a woman, he was 45 and she was 20. Now they've been together 15 years and she's 40. Which women go into the height of their desires? 40, late 30s, mid-40s.

[Podcast Host]

I didn't know that.

[Charay Hayes]

And now this guy's 60 years old and he's like, can't keep up. So a lot of these guys will go out and then hire guys to supplement. But it's under my control.

[Podcast Host]

All right, guys, we got Charay Hayes here today.

[Interviewer]

Got the book here. I just started it. It's a very interesting book, man. Congrats on becoming an author, first of all.

[Charay Hayes]

Thank you, man. I appreciate it, man.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Was it a pretty tough process to get this thing to the finish line?

[Charay Hayes]

Not once. When I decided to do the work, I tried to start the route with the ghost riders and stuff like that where I was just going to tell a story and it was going to get it down. But the stories are so personal and my real story, so I had to just write it myself. And once I decided to, I really probably got it out and done in probably about two weeks.

[Interviewer]

Oh, wow.

[Charay Hayes]

Because everything was here. Once I got the format, I was able to get it down pretty easy.

[Interviewer]

Was it a big weight lifted off your shoulders finally being able to tell some of this stuff for you?

[Charay Hayes]

I won't say weight lifted over my shoulders because it was an epiphany. Right. I just know I went through trying to solve the erectile dysfunction issue, which was. That was. And once I got it solved and figured out and started helping other people, it became like an epiphany. Like, yo, I gotta get this information out here. Cause everybody's going the wrong route, they're trying to solve it the wrong way. So it's more of a gratification. Right. Because I know it's valuable information and it's reaching people now. So it's more of a fulfilling thing.

[Interviewer]

It's needed, man. The statistics on ED these days are pretty absurd.

[Charay Hayes]

It is absurd. And the statistic that threw me off the Most was over 50% of the cases are mental. There's really nothing. There was nothing wrong with me physically.

[Podcast Host]

Holy crap.

[Charay Hayes]

Nothing wrong with physical.

[Interviewer]

So is that like a trauma thing?

[Charay Hayes]

Maybe it's an anxiety based thing. So people don't realize is when you experience anxiety, you release a Hormone called cortisol. And cortisol restricts your blood vessels. So while you're taking Viagra, Cialis, all these pills to open up your blood vessels, then anxiety is giving you a completely different effect. And it's stronger than the pills.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Charay Hayes]

But nobody's discussing this, right? So if you're having anxiety based mental base and you grab a pill, you're using a physical fix to a mental issue, and then you're gonna just keep hitting the wall. But if nobody tells you this, you're gonna say, it's the pill. So then you try a different pill, then you try a gel, then you try, you know what I'm saying, you try honey pack, right? You try in all these different things. But the issue is really here.

[Interviewer]

That's so nuts. Cause you think the pill would be stronger than the mind?

[Charay Hayes]

Absolutely not, man.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Charay Hayes]

Nothing outweighs the mind. That's why, that's why it's funny. You'll have guys who are struggling with ed and this used to happen to me, I would have a girl by struggle, right? Because of the mental situation. And then let's say things don't work out. And then two hours later, I'm watching Sports center with like the boner of.

[Interviewer/Commentator]

Life, you know what I'm saying?

[Charay Hayes]

Because the anxiety is going, holy cow, pill is working. And most guys who are dealing with this, they notice that in the moment they might struggle. And then every other time it's like, oh, I'm good. Like, I don't know what's going on. But the conversation is just wrong, man. Because there's so much money making and selling the pills, selling the procedures, selling the shock therapy or whatever. Nobody's addressing the mental aspect of it. And then we're men too. Nobody wants to run into a therapist and say, hey, help me with my penis. You know what I'm saying? But there's nobody. We're not gonna have this conversation, right? It's very few people extremely close to you that you're gonna go to and say, hey, I'm struggling sexual as a male. That's not like the most masculine thing. So the book is the conversation that you don't wanna have with anybody else. You know, it's. And so, you know, as you saw, I went through it. I tell these hilarious stories that are all relatable to the stuff we go through. But it makes light with the education. So most guys are able to read it, get motivated, and then find solutions.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah. For me, you're reframing my mindset. Cause I Always thought it was a physical thing. I thought it was like a low testosterone thing. I thought it was like your physical health determines your ed.

[Charay Hayes]

No, because so testosterone is in two parts, right? There's total testosterone. So you'll Hear the numbers, 800, 900, 1000. But then you have something called free testosterone. Free testosterone is actually what's responsible for your libido. So you will have a guy that'll get testosterone numbers checked. And under, let's say under 250 on most scales is low testosterone, Right? So I got a buddy who may have 180 testosterone total, but his free testosterone is a 52. So free testosterone 52, he's ready to go all day, you know, but he may not carry muscle and a bunch of strength or whatever, but his libido is fine. In my case, I had total Testosterone of over 700, but my free testosterone was a 3.

[Interviewer]

Oh my God.

[Charay Hayes]

So I can get in shape, strong, whatever, but my sex drive was like non existent, you know. And so a lot of things people don't know, you know, you had these fad diets with like going on keto or, you know, certain ways of fasting, which. These things are effective, don't get me wrong. But there's a fine line between doing it the right way and then putting your body in like a starvation mode because you're not eating enough, you're not getting enough calories, you're not being consistent enough. And when you go into a starvation mode, your body then basically sends a message that, well, if you can't feed yourself, you can't feed kids, Right? So then you'll have testosterone drops. In my case, there's a hormone called SHGB that spiked, which binded to my free testosterone, which made my libido drop.

[Interviewer]

Geez. So a three. I need to measure mine because I'll be honest, my sex drive isn't that high, especially for my age.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. And believe it or not, man, it could be something as simple as your diet being deficient in the right amount of nutrients, whether you're eating enough, whether you're, you know, whether you're just understanding that, okay, look, my levels are off, and then you playing a mind game with yourself. You know, it's very simple fixes, man, that. But nobody's talking about it, right? Cause it's easier to write you a script. And then we make money off you getting the pills or the corner store makes money, or the. You know what I'm saying? Whatever distributor that's selling online, they're pushing the Financial gain instead of pushing what could really help people.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I'm sure you've tried it all. Cause you went through some issues, right?

[Charay Hayes]

Listen, man, every side.

[Interviewer]

You even got the implant.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, yeah. And that's what it is. And so with me, the implant's always an option. And that's what I tell guys. There is a physical remedy for you or a medical remedy, but if all else fails.

[Interviewer]

But it's like a last resort.

[Charay Hayes]

Yes, it's a last resort. And it's the best result. Right. And I would say at some point. Cause men, we decline, period. Right. So the majority of men may be at this at some point. Right. That's just nature and anatomy. Most guys go backwards sexually, but there's too many guys that still enjoy sex, still wanna have sex, but don't because they told themselves, well, I had my run, right? And they're experiencing some sort of problem and they've given up on the fixes. And now they're in these sexless marriages and relationships where they stay in separate rooms and they don't touch each other. And men are accepting it because it's like, well, I'm not functioning right anyway, so sexless marriage.

[Interviewer]

Right?

[Charay Hayes]

Let me just let it roll. But I guarantee you, if he knew he could perform anytime, any place is more motivation to keep your sex life alive.

[Interviewer]

So what do you recommend for the mental side of things? As like a therapist or.

[Charay Hayes]

No, the mental side of the thing is, first and foremost, you have to believe it's the mental side of the thing. Because it's fear, it's anxiety based. Right. It's not, hey, it's just mental. It's going into every situation worried, am I gonna fail? Is it gonna work? If I put this condom on, will that work? You know what I'm saying? These are the things that get in your mind that cause doubt. So once you realize where the doubt is coming from and know that you're okay physically, then you can start adjusting that on your own. But if you're dependent on the pill or dependent on the testosterone booster or whatever it is that you told yourself you need, then there's no way you can adjust your mind because you're already per se addicted or reliant on something outside of yourself.

[Interviewer]

Got it. And your line of work because you were a male stripper, this was really affecting your livelihood, right?

[Charay Hayes]

Absolutely, man. And not just the livelihood of it. It was affecting my personal life. Right. Because being a stripper came with pressure. Right. When women see you in this light, you're supposed to Be the best sex you ever had.

[Interviewer/Commentator]

You know what I'm saying?

[Charay Hayes]

Like, oh, my God, the stripper. You see the moves and all that? And so you gonna walk into that situation with added pressure. Cause I gotta live up to the punisher. Right. Live up to the hype. So that would create the anxiety that is like, well, I don't wanna fall off. So. Right. So let me pop this pill. Let me do these things. And I just had to really learn that it's not the pills that or it's not the pills are not the end all, be all. It's definitely an issue with how I project myself sexually. And if I. If I think failure, then I'm gonna experience failure.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

You know?

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Because you can't be walking around soft on the job. Right.

[Charay Hayes]

That ain't gonna work, bro. You know.

[Interviewer]

Man. So you. What age did you get into that?

[Charay Hayes]

I started the male stripper thing at 22 years.

[Interviewer]

Holy crap. So right out of college.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. Not. Not even, actually. Yep. I came home from a semester and never went back.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. Never went back. And I started the dancing thing or whatever as a side hustle, and then it just became the main thing for the last 30 years.

[Interviewer]

Damn. Are you still doing it or are you retired now?

[Charay Hayes]

Still doing it.

[Podcast Host]

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[Interviewer]

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[Interviewer]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Interviewer]

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[Charay Hayes]

Still doing it, man. But not. Not as a main thing. Like, I run a company that we do events every week, but if it's a scenario where we're short guys or whatever, I'll still jump up there.

[Interviewer]

Holy crap. So the money's nice?

[Charay Hayes]

The money's nice, man. The money's nice, but it's a tradition thing, right? I won't say the money's nice for, let's say a guy that's an individual dancer just running around, that's a hustle. But once you realize men are gonna get married, they're gonna have a bachelor party. So the ladies want a bachelorette. And if you can set up a circumstance where they can come out and celebrate, you know, there's always a market for that.

[Interviewer]

Right, right.

[Charay Hayes]

And so once you tap into it, it's consistent to money.

[Interviewer]

And what's your biggest cities right now for the market?

[Charay Hayes]

New York City, Nashville, Tennessee.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Charay Hayes]

Miami and actually Scottsdale, Arizona.

[Interviewer]

Really? So not Vegas?

[Charay Hayes]

No, not so. Vegas is a lot of competition.

[Interviewer]

Ah, that makes sense.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, A lot of competition is, you know, you're gonna have all the other shows that, you know, women can choose to go there. So, you know, if you really want to capitalize, you want to go to non competitive markets because then it's easy to pull it in.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, you said something really interesting on a podcast. You said only 10% of the women you dealt with were attractive.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, well, I'm talking about on the whole of ladies that arrive to the shows. And you know that number's skewed, right? So if you get 500 women, right. If you say 10% of these 500 women are gonna be extremely attractive. Now we're talking 50 ladies, right? 50 out of 500. And I honestly think that's probably normal ratios when you're walking around, you know, unless you're going to like high end clubs or whatever, you seem more attractive. But if you just took, you know, 500 random women and stuck them in a place, you'll probably pick out 50 that you think are extremely hot, another 450. You know, it varies, right? So that is, that is the ratio. But hey, look, man, guys talk about every girl gotta be hot. And that's definitely, let's say if you're who you're gonna date, who you're gonna marry, who you're gonna sleep with, but I don't care what these women. Look out. You walk into a place with 500 women and it could be 450, like, like Saint Bernards, right?

[Interviewer/Commentator]

You know what I'm saying?

[Charay Hayes]

If they scream, oh my God, you're.

[Interviewer/Commentator]

So hot, you know what I'm saying?

[Charay Hayes]

You're gonna love it, bro. Like, I don't care. I'm sorry, man. You can give me, 450 grandmothers. If they screaming I'm hot, I'm happy to be there.

[Interviewer]

I love that. Yes. You're still hearing it. You're not seeing them, I guess, right?

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, well, no, I mean, they're there, but still, any. How many times as a guy have you just walked down the street and girls like whistling at you?

[Interviewer]

Like whatever you think of a single.

[Charay Hayes]

Time, bro, we never experienced that. Right. So don't underestimate the ego stroke, you know what I'm saying, of women screaming from you, no matter what they look.

[Interviewer]

Like, Bro, did you feel on top of the world? Like your ego must have been insane?

[Charay Hayes]

Oh, bro, forget about it. I said before I walked around, it's like I heard theme music everywhere I went, like, who's the man?

[Interviewer/Commentator]

You know what I'm saying?

[Charay Hayes]

Like, dude, it's something that I feel like everybody guys should experience in some way.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

Because it's kind of cool, man.

[Interviewer]

You were living like Dan Bazarian, you.

[Charay Hayes]

Know, that's the guy.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Because he was having parties. 10 to 1 ratio. So 10 girls to 1 guy. That's pretty much the environment you're in.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, dude. Constantly. Constantly. My entire adult life. Wow.

[Interviewer]

That's rare for guys. Usually it's the opposite at parties and clubs and stuff.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. And the cool thing about it is for. For me, that's expected for a guy like. Like Dan, Right. Because he's wildly successful. The money, the atmosphere or whatever, this is done as like a regular guy.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Charay Hayes]

So I'm not going to experience that any other scenario but at the club, at work, but I still experience it.

[Interviewer]

Good point.

[Charay Hayes]

But it, but it. But it creates something, right? Because growing up in that atmosphere where I walk in and there's hundreds of women and they're all there to see me and the other guys and all attention. Now you put me in a regular club and I'm like, this sucks.

[Interviewer/Commentator]

You know what I'm saying?

[Charay Hayes]

Because you. You take away that. That kind of pedestal experience, man, which, like I said, man, is I wouldn't trade it for anything.

[Interviewer]

I feel that. Well, clubs these days in general suck. I heard.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, man. I mean, you know, it's a business model now, so everything's going to just be set up in sections. They're gonna make you extremely uncomfortable unless you buy one of these sections with these 50 bottles of alcohol, 10x, you know what I'm saying? And facts. And I'm not mad at them. It's a great business model, but it does take away the enjoyment of being in the club, unless you're one of these spending top dollar for the experience, you know.

[Interviewer]

So you started at 22. When did the invites to the exclusive parties start? Like the celebrity parties?

[Charay Hayes]

The. Well, the invites in terms of the case started in 2012.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Charay Hayes]

In terms of getting proposition for, like these exclusive parties or whatever, those are constant.

[Interviewer]

Okay. So that started right away.

[Charay Hayes]

I won't say right away. It started more or less when the Internet process, in terms of shopping online for what you need, when that became big.

[Interviewer]

Oh, so people could just order it online.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, so. So for example, like, even with me being found with the Diddy Cassie situation, that was a Google search.

[Interviewer]

Oh, wow.

[Charay Hayes]

So my mail review business would come up in the top three consistently of if you wanted to hire male strippers. So they must have just googled male strippers in New York City. I came up and the number call wow. Was answered. So that's where most of the propositions come from. You'll get random calls like, hey, would you want to hire somebody for my wife? You know, I have a certain event, but it's going to be an NDA and they kind of inquire and then you don't know who you're showing up for. But it could be some of the biggest. The biggest. That would be crazy in the New York area.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I would have assumed, like, it was word of mouth. I wouldn't assume they're just looking on Google for this type of stuff.

[Charay Hayes]

No, I think they're just looking on Google randomly because word of mouth, it's like, who do you tell? It's like, hey, can you refer somebody to bang my wife? That'd be super cool.

[Interviewer/Commentator]

You know what I'm saying?

[Charay Hayes]

Like, so who do you refer? So I think it's more of a trial or error thing. So, like a big deal was made with, you know, people must think it was some sort of crazy fetish thing. But you know, I mentioned even when I showed up for the. For the Diddy situation, he had a veil on.

[Interviewer]

Right?

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. And you know, you didn't know. Yeah, so I didn't know. Yeah, but people hear the veil and think it's a kink thing. It's not a kink thing. Right. It's. I don't want this person to know who I am.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Charay Hayes]

And I'm going to the extreme till I can vet him, till it's comfortable enough where I can let them know. So getting random calls is never gonna be a word of mouth thing. It's gonna be, hey, trial and error, let's Try this guy out and see if it works. And if they get comfortable, then you know who it is and give me information.

[Interviewer]

Did you know when he spoke by his voice, like who it was or.

[Charay Hayes]

I had no idea, man. With me. And this, this, this literally went. Literally almost the whole scenario went two and a half years. This was maybe a year. It was about a year to 15 months in before I figured out who it was really. And I figured it out. Cutting on a tv.

[Interviewer]

Cutting on the tv.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. Cause we were in a suite and this hotel had a welcome message. So when I cut on the tv, the TV said Essex House looked like the welcome mister.

[Interviewer]

That's crazy.

[Charay Hayes]

And that's the only way I figured it out. Wow.

[Interviewer]

But you didn't know who Cassie was at the time?

[Charay Hayes]

Dude, her face looked familiar, but I could not put it together.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Charay Hayes]

I couldn't put it together. And what really was throwing me off was I was like, this chick looks familiar. But they introduced themselves as a married couple. So I'm Google searching. Married.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Charay Hayes]

So they're never going to come up because they weren't married. So. And then at some point I gave up. But I knew she looked familiar. And I think if she wasn't wearing the wigs because she had this very obvious shaved head haircut and if I would have saw that, I probably would have put it together.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

But the wigs do me lot A.

[Interviewer]

That's nuts. Was he watching every time?

[Charay Hayes]

Every time.

[Interviewer]

Holy crap.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, every time. I think that's a part of what it is. And the thing is, it's coming out now as like, wow, this holy crap thing. Right. But that's super common, man.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Charay Hayes]

It's super common for guys to hire other dudes to sleep with their girlfriends.

[Interviewer]

I like the elite level, you're saying.

[Charay Hayes]

So this is a dynamic I usually see. You'll see a guy usually in a range of a minimum, what appears to be 20 years older than this, his woman. Right. So you get this guy that maybe met as a woman at he was 45 and she was 25. Right. And now they've been together 15 years and she's 40. Which women go into the height of their sexual desires? High 40, late 30s, mid-40s.

[Interviewer]

I didn't know that.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. So they're in there peak, peak where they, they wanted all the time. Their hormones are going crazy. Right. And now this guy's 60 years old and he's like, I can't keep up.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Charay Hayes]

So a lot of these guys will go out and then hire guys to supplement. But they do it under a scenario where, okay, I'm in control. Right. If you just send your 45 year old hot wife out to find a lover right now, if you're not involved in it, she can catch feelings, he can catch feelings, they can fall in love, and then it's like divorce your husband. We can be together.

[Interviewer]

So it's like supervising.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. Let's spend his money. Right.

[Interviewer/Commentator]

You know what I'm saying?

[Charay Hayes]

So these guys say, well, look, I can't keep up, but if I find the guys to keep her happy, but it's under my control, she's happy, and then I don't have to worry about the divorce aspect or whatever. And then if this guy has some sort of fetish where he can possibly get off or have some enjoyment, then it's a win. Win.

[Interviewer]

Interesting. Yeah, that's a good, good point. Because like Bill Belichick, for example, he's like what, 80 years old.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Like how his girl's 20 something.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. How at some point it's gonna be nothing he can do.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. He can't keep up with that.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. So if he actually loves her and cares about her, then he's gonna create some sort of consent just in a place where he doesn't feel threatened.

[Interviewer]

Right. That's interesting. Did the. We'll get into the trial a little bit. Did it help or hurt your business in any way? The Diddy trial?

[Charay Hayes]

I'm still trying to figure that out.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

It definitely didn't help. Hurt. I think it hurt me as an individual.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, as an individual. And a lot of it could be in my mind. Right. Because for the most part, being involved in this, I would say I landed on my feet where from a public opinion for being involved in this and being considered an escort, prostitute or whatever. People don't look at me crazy. Right. But there's still a vast majority of people who see the victim experience of Cassie. And just my involvement in the period is a black guy. Right. Because the trial wasn't televised. A lot of people really are basing their facts off of report they had on social media.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. So I'll have a woman from time to time send me a nasty message saying, oh my God, how could you urinate on Cassie? And it's like, I'm not the guy who. That's the other guy.

[Interviewer/Commentator]

You know what I'm saying?

[Charay Hayes]

Like, but I'm getting this.

[Interviewer]

You get mixed up in it.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, I get mixed up in it. So a lot of my negativity comes from being Mixed up in it. So if you got a group of 20 ladies and they say, hey, look, we want to hire this guy, let's get the punisher guy. Right? 18 of them could be on board, but then there's just got to be two, like, oh my God, you're going to hire him or whatever. And now, damn.

[Interviewer]

So it's like negative pr.

[Charay Hayes]

Negative. Yeah, the negative PR is going to affect to some degree and it's usually the people who are negatively affected are the people who don't even have the right details.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Charay Hayes]

But I can't get around that, you know, so, you know, you manage it the best you can. For the most part it's been positive vibes, but you know, it's gonna be. It's gonna limit.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Did you feel like the trial played out how you thought it would? Like when. In terms of like being guilty on two charges, Right? Two out of the five.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. So I, I didn't think he was gonna get racketeering or sex trafficking.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

Based on the consent. Right. It was just too much consent.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. You probably signed a bunch of. With them, right?

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, well, I didn't have. I didn't sign anything.

[Interviewer]

Oh, really.

[Charay Hayes]

Hiding itself. Yeah. But even the people. Well, signing the NDAs didn't matter because once things go criminal, NDA is void.

[Interviewer]

Oh, really?

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, I. So if there's a. If there's a criminal act. Because that's why, you know, Cassie had to sign an NDA when he settled out with him. But once there's a crime, it just voids it. So I really think that too. Man, I lost my trainer.

[Interviewer]

So guilty. He wasn't found.

[Charay Hayes]

Oh, yeah, there you go. Yeah. So I don't. I knew they weren't going to get him on that. What they got him on. The transportation for prostitution was just on his face. Clear. Because he bought plane tickets for some of the guys. Obviously he flew them in.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

So I knew that. But it was. I don't know how you get trafficking for your girlfriend at 10 years.

[Interviewer]

That is an interesting dilemma. Right?

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. Because where I thought they were going to get him, which the jury ignored, was the government said, you only need one instance where maybe she wanted. She didn't want to. And he coerced them.

[Interviewer]

But it's like, that's hard to prove though, right?

[Charay Hayes]

Or that's hard. Yeah. Like in a ten year relationship you may have. Hey, let's do it. No, I got a headache. Oh, come on.

[Interviewer/Commentator]

You know what I'm saying?

[Charay Hayes]

Like, like you're gonna. You're gonna get those scenarios. So I think it's hard to pick through somebody's entire relationship and say maybe this night she didn't really want to when he pushed her. And now he's sex trafficking.

[Interviewer]

It's very interesting, man, because there's a few high profile cases lately, like the Shannon Sharp one. They had sex over like a hundred times. And then he gets hit with that grape charge. You know what I mean?

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And then has to settle. But it's like, at what point does it become that if you're having consensual sex for so long.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. And so that's, that's the thing about it with. I think the settling part came from strategy. Right. Because if you look at the details, she was threatening him with the, I'm gonna release a book to tell his stuff. Settle out with me. And he was saying, no, I'm not like, you know, I don't have to settle out with you. All that was consensual. But there's a thought process that when you sue somebody's business entities because of their insurance policies, you line yourself up with a settlement quicker because the businesses want to protect the endorsements and stuff. They want to get away from that. So I don't know if it was realized is right after that lawsuit settled, every business entity that he was ahead or he was affiliated with, he resigned to sold his stock.

[Interviewer]

Oh, yes. To rock. Right.

[Charay Hayes]

He. The liquor companies, the revolt tv.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

The clothing, everything. He had it. He resigned from it. Because now these additional suits can't just name his business entities and tap into their trailers.

[Interviewer]

He had some serious equity in some of these.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. So. So he is. When he sold everything, I think some people just looked at it as, you know, why is he liquidating or whatever. But that just common sense. Right. Once you remove yourself from being involved with the company, you take away the liability with the company.

[Interviewer]

That's a good point. Because people don't know this, but when you get sued personally, it's really hard to collect that money, even if you win super hard.

[Charay Hayes]

But if pursue the business and they got insurance policies, they almost settle with you immediately.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, no, for sure. Because if you're. You're solo, you put that in a trust, you hide your money in businesses.

[Charay Hayes]

Like you'll never get it.

[Interviewer]

You'll never get it. Especially these celebrities. They know how to structure that.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but the, but the business, the association with the business is the, is the, that's really where you always get paid. It's always the insurance policy. So even when people saying, oh look, he settled with her immediately, he didn't settle with her immediately. The insurance settled with her immediately. If you look in the back end, he was in negotiations. He was going back and forth. His previous attorney said this, that he was going back and forth. And it was close. But it got to the point where we're filing and once it filed and it got to the insurance companies, it was like this. Gotta go.

[Interviewer]

Ton of civil cases too. He's dealing with.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. Like they're all, you know, they're just trying to deal with the settling. Right. The, the. I don't think anybody is really going to make it to trial.

[Interviewer]

Too expensive for most of them.

[Charay Hayes]

Right. Too expensive. And some of them will go to trial. But, you know, the cost factor ends up being what saves me more money to litigate this all the way to the end. Which, you know, at his legal fees and stuff like that, it could be significantly more than what he was.

[Interviewer]

Seven figures probably honestly before.

[Charay Hayes]

And he may be able to settle it. Most of these. He could probably settle for 100 grand.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. You know, did you have to spend a ton on legal yourself?

[Charay Hayes]

So when I, when I called for legal just to retain somebody was going to be 20 grand. Geez.

[Interviewer]

Just to retain them.

[Charay Hayes]

Just because through the minute they hear Diddy. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

They think you have a ton of money.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. So I ended up taking the, the court appointed.

[Interviewer]

Oh yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

Which. Which was nerve wracking too because, you know, nice guy or whatever the case may be. But you know, law is a fraternity. Right. So the way that I looked at it is, look, I have an attorney serving me allegedly. But he can serve me to the fullest or he can work more towards the southern district of New York City and kind of make a nice relationship with this legal team or go out of his way to protect. And I just believe this is me, but I just believe most attorneys are going to protect their 100% relationship.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

Before doing the absolute best.

[Interviewer]

That's their livelihood. I don't even blame them. You know what I mean?

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, of course, man. Come on. If you, you're a single attorney, a small firm, and you now you got a favor owed by. You know what I'm saying? Because you. So I never felt comfortable with representation.

[Interviewer]

That sucks. And in a case like that, especially like it's so public.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, man. Yeah. Wow.

[Interviewer]

Could you like, you basically couldn't afford like top lawyers. Right?

[Charay Hayes]

I, I didn't want to invest in that, man. I really didn't.

[Interviewer]

There's no, I guess Gain for you to do that.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, because there was no legal charges towards me, right? No legal charges, no anything. I definitely participated in prostitution. Right. Whether I knew it knowingly or not, but it was no statute of limitations. Oh, so they couldn't charge me with anything. I didn't need some sort of non prosecution agreement or immunity or any of these things. I just had to get up there and tell the truth, you know, And I was not playing with being truthful. There are some. Some manipulative things that go into how they want you to testify. And I was trying to stay away from that.

[Interviewer]

Really? What? Who was trying to make you do that?

[Charay Hayes]

Well, so it's how they want to frame your testimony. Right. So I think the big part, everybody's confused why I was up there, because I went up there for the prosecution and it appeared that I greatly helped the defense. Even one of Diddy's lawyers was on Piers Morgan and he asked her directly, hey, the guy to punish her, he went up for the prosecution, but I believe he was helpful for the defense. And she said, I agree, absolutely. And the one part of my testimony where there would be a lot of directions given, right? And these directions would be small stuff. Hey, move the camera, move this. And the other. And I seen Cassie express frustration, but the frustration would be more like, oh boy, you know what I'm saying? And so I worded that, I expressed that. Cause I was asked, hey, did you ever see frustration? I said, well, only frustration to the directions. And I said, she would sigh. And the word once came up. Right. Now, once is not one of my normal vocabulary words. I usually know exactly what words I use. But let's even say I said it right. Wince was the wrong word, right. Because whence when I look, I had to look it up myself. And it was, it says that there's pain experience. That's not what I viewed. So let's say you want to stand. The question would be, you said that you would see Cassie wince or sigh. Is that correct or not? Right. So if I just answer it yes. Which is. That's how they want you to answer it. Yes. Then went, society could have been from the sex. You know what I'm saying? It could have been from intimidation, you know, so I would go out my way to testify as yes to the directions. But they don't want you to say that, Right. They just want you to blink it to yes and then the blanket to yes.

[Interviewer]

They don't let you explain.

[Charay Hayes]

They don't, they don't want you to explain. So What I went out of my way with my testimony was any questions that were wording that could seem like there was abuse. I just wanted to be clear. So I would say yes to the directions. Not necessarily because you hear wince and you know what I'm saying, like, and I'm not. And wince is not a word that I would use. But if I did use it out of context, I just want it to be clear.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I don't ever hear people saying that.

[Charay Hayes]

Word, to be honest. I don't.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that's like a grandparents generation. I feel like exactly one of those words.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

New York's known for like the toughest court system too. So that must have been pretty intimidating for you.

[Charay Hayes]

Oh, man, forget about it, man. And I thought I was ready, you know, I didn't saw like 10 Judge Judy episodes. Right. But now when you walk in there, man, it's live audience.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Charay Hayes]

And it's super intimidating, man. They ceilings are super high. The judge sits up high to all the furniture is huge. And, and I was reading up on it. They also keep like the room extremely cold. So you get in there and it's like cold, brisk. It's very tense.

[Interviewer]

Wow, that must be a psychological thing.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, dude. By the time I got to stand, I was shaking. Like, I kept it cool, but I was like, yo, this is, yeah. Crazy. And then there's fear involved. Right. I'd be the first to say that. Like, you know, I'm coming in to testify. Where? Where, guys? Life in jail.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

Right. So just the fact that it's like, man, like I'm a part of this major scenario.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

This is everywhere.

[Interviewer]

It's a big case. Like it's going to go down in history, I think.

[Charay Hayes]

Forget about it, man. It's the equivalent of the O.J. case.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

Which. How long ago was that? Right. So we're talking 94, 20, 25, 30 plus years. Yeah. These, that's how these cases come along.

[Interviewer]

That's nuts. That's nuts. And were you on good terms with Diddy and Cassie beforehand?

[Charay Hayes]

I mean, I thought I hadn't heard anything from them. Yeah. So for years, for 12, 13. But I know everything ended on good terms, but I, I didn't look at them coming into the, the courtroom. But you gotta feel that, you know, there was going to be negative tension, number one, just because I'm coming in to testify for the prosecution. So that means, you know, my likelihood, my testimony may be damaging. And then the first guy completely threw him under the bus. Yeah. The first guy that testified and I ended up, you know, meeting the guy after the fact.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

And, you know, I can honestly say after meeting him, hearing his testimony on the stand, and then he did a few interviews where his testimony completely changed.

[Interviewer]

It's like, I don't like that. If you, if you're gonna be that bold, you gotta stay consistent.

[Charay Hayes]

You gotta stay consistent.

[Interviewer]

You know what I mean? You gotta own that, especially if you're doing it in a court setting.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, man. And then that's one of the things that throws me off, because the first thing, once I got off the stand and I spoke to my attorney, he was like, if you're gonna do interviews, it's fine, but your testimony has to match what you say in the interview. So the next guy doing a complete 180 on his testimony or whatever, I'm like, man, you better hope federal government don't knock on his door.

[Interviewer/Commentator]

You.

[Interviewer]

Did they throw his testimony out because of that?

[Charay Hayes]

Well, I think he got. They didn't throw him out, but he had a tough time on cross examination.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Charay Hayes]

Because he said things on the stand that when you got to his interviews with the federal government prior, they were too completely outcome.

[Interviewer]

Oh, wow.

[Charay Hayes]

And that's the thing. His inconsistencies were damaging. Right. So for example, they asked him, he said he heard Cassie getting beat up in the back room. So they said, what happened after? And he said on the stand that Diddy came out allegedly after beating her up, and then asked him was he ready to have sex with her. Which looks, I just beat a woman up, now I'm gonna force her to have sex. Right. That sounds crazy. But then he said in his interviews that when Diddy came out from the fight, he said, this is not happening today. You gotta get out. So you said that in your interviews, but on the stand, he tried to make you have sex with her. So that. That's like a. Yeah. Huge inconsistency. That is pretty big, you know what I'm saying? But that inconsistency, which is a huge detail, could be the difference in somebody going to jail.

[Interviewer]

That's crazy.

[Charay Hayes]

You know, so it's like you can't.

[Interviewer]

Can't play around with that.

[Charay Hayes]

Can't play around with that, man.

[Interviewer]

So the federal government was interviewing the witnesses before the trial?

[Charay Hayes]

Absolutely, man. You go witness, you do witness prep, even do cross examination prep.

[Podcast Host]

They.

[Charay Hayes]

They have you ready for what's going to be said and what's not going to be said. So it was, it was interesting how he changed his complete story from one to the other, and then with me meeting them, they were, you know, was talk about. They, they. Him and one of the other escort guys, they wanted to get together and make like a three man podcast.

[Interviewer]

Oh, really?

[Charay Hayes]

And we got together to talk about it or whatever. And I could hear this guy, you know, I'm going to watch his testimony, get the information, and I hear the guy just lying. Like, he's making up stuff, you know, like we call the Cap in New York, man. I was like calling this guy Cap in America, like, because he was just lying about everything, man. And I was like, I just, I just don't understand it, man. That's nuts. You. You know, people, there's, there's. There's rumors, right? And not real, but there's rumors that they try to pray out that, you know, Diddy could be a threat. Right. And if this is true or not, the last thing you want to do with a guy that could be a threat is then give false damning testimony about him to.

[Interviewer/Commentator]

You know what I'm saying?

[Charay Hayes]

Like, I don't know, man.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I saw a lot of those rumors. Like he's trying to pay off the witnesses. He's trying to be violent.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, man. They thought they, you know, I was getting some rumor just because I testified honestly that, oh, he must have paid him off. Like, you know, it's like, I wish, man. I'm running around trying to do every interview possible to sell my book. Not to.

[Interviewer/Commentator]

You know what I'm saying?

[Charay Hayes]

Not to. If Diddy paid me off, I'll be in, in Bali.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Commentator]

You know what I'm saying?

[Interviewer]

Like, but feds don't lose, man. That's another thing. Like 98 rate, right? Conviction rate.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, it was something crazy, like. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So I don't even think he could pay people off to win. Like, I don't think it would have been possible. There's too much evidence.

[Charay Hayes]

Too much evidence, bro. How do you do that?

[Interviewer]

Yeah, the video was like, pretty damaging too, of him beating up Cassie.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. But the bad thing was it was just improperly charged. Like the video is domestic violence.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

Right.

[Interviewer]

How did that get leaked? I. I didn't look into that actually, because I know that allegedly he paid off the hotel 50k or something to not.

[Charay Hayes]

Well, yeah, he paid off a couple of guys that worked for the hotel. But you. You know how it is, man. Money talks, Right. So the guys probably never actually destroyed the video. And then I'm somebody who experienced this when the feds come knock.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

That's it. Because, you know, they're gonna find out about those guys from Cassie. She's the star witness. Right. So she's gonna recall, hey, it was this time he beat me up. We paid the people. This was the guy we paid. So that's how they probably found the video, just like how they found me. Like, I only ever dealt with her and him. So if they want to know who the male escorts was, she has to.

[Interviewer]

I just thought it was weird that it got leaked on social media before it was in the court records.

[Charay Hayes]

Well, I think they, I mean, that's part of the game.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that's what. When I read the news now or watch social media, I'm like, okay, why is this being presented to me? You gotta think like that these days.

[Charay Hayes]

Of course, yeah. Cause they want it leaked. Right. Cause the minute it gets into evidence, it can be sealed.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Charay Hayes]

So you want it to leak, and that's gonna help with your indictment. Right. Because if, if there's a lawsuit filed. Right. You know, I touched on that with you. I always thought the lawsuit was filed as a. Not necessarily I ever want to go to court, but it's number one, I filed a lawsuit, maybe he'll settle. And if the lawsuit doesn't settle, it sets the stage for my book. Because you can't just write a book about somebody that's invasion the privacy or get sued. Right. So I file a lawsuit. Now it's public record. If the lawsuit doesn't go through now, at least public record allows me to talk openly about my book. It's a win win. And then it worked perfectly, the settlement happened. But I don't think she ever probably wanted it to go to where it went. But when you file a lawsuit with alleged rape and these type of things, it's almost irresponsible for law enforcement to not check to see if there was an actual crime. If you really look at, you know, if you want to go into like Deshaun Watson. Right.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

When these cases was filed, they did a legal investigation, but they saw no crime. So almost every one of these high profile allegations is a legal investigation. And they decide. So with the legal investigation, this became all this stuff. But I don't think I would bet that there's no way Cassie wanted this to go to.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, there's a lot of personal stuff that got.

[Charay Hayes]

She already was compensated. Why would, why would she want that story?

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Cause she already got paid before the trial, right?

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. There's no reason. I think I would almost say it was almost like to some degree she was forced. Right. To hey, listen, we have a legal case. You gotta testify and you just. There's an intimidation factor where. How do you say no to the government? And then. And think about it, he's in a RICO by himself. Right. And the only reason why he's by himself is because all his co conspirators testified against him. Interesting. So there could be a threat. And this is me speculating. Right. Because I don't want nobody government coming for me. Right. But if Cassie does not become the star witness, then she's a co conspirator.

[Interviewer]

Wow. Yeah, I did see talks of that online too though.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. So it's like Eva testify against him or you could be on trial right next to him.

[Interviewer]

Yep. Yeah. I was seeing people saying like, why isn't she being charged?

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So, you know, it didn't say it directly, but she could have had like an immunity agreement or something like that. And that's why she's not a conspirator.

[Interviewer]

Well, I think there was a lot of pressure on the government to move forward with this case on social media.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. And also I thought it was. It's also a career move, right? Like if you are the prosecution that the prosecutors that take down Sean Combs.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Charay Hayes]

Like that's, that's a career making case 100%.

[Interviewer]

You'll be set for life at that point.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. So I mean, if it was any Joe below with the same scenarios in. Nobody's going to prosecute that.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Charay Hayes]

But I mean, look how this thing was covered. Right. This thing was covered so largely that here I am three months after on one of the largest platforms, still talking about it because it's a big deal.

[Interviewer]

And you'll be getting on many more.

[Charay Hayes]

That's what I'm saying. Like, I laugh, right? Because the Dave Chappelle skit when he talks about Monica Lewinsky, it was like, how powerful can you be of a guy where it's like, give me a blowjob, there's a future in it. Right. You know what I'm saying?

[Podcast Host]

I mean, look at her now.

[Interviewer]

She's going on a podcast tour herself.

[Charay Hayes]

My man. And so here it is, right? I'm somebody that, because I'm part of this, right? Like I'm possibly infamously famous for the rest of my life out of association.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

How big this guy is, dude.

[Interviewer]

It's not. Being a high profile man these days is pretty scary. There's a lot of cases going on right now.

[Charay Hayes]

It's super scary.

[Interviewer]

Like cases from 25 years ago too. Like you're not safe, even if it happened 30 years ago.

[Charay Hayes]

And you know what's funny, man? Like, I really think about it because I think about this a lot, right. He. It might have helped him. He was somebody that. He videotaped everything.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Charay Hayes]

Imagine if he didn't. Because in the case, there was show of videos. Videos, videos, videos. And then they interviewed one of the jurors, and he said all the videos were, like, calm, like regular sex. Wow. What if he didn't have.

[Interviewer]

The videos would have been worse, you think?

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, because now you gotta imagine, like, she's painting a picture that I was under duress. Right. That's her experience. Right. I was forced to do these things. And these. We would hire some guy named the Punisher. Right? Right. So what the first thing you're gonna think, like, as soon as I heard my name, the Punisher, what was he doing? Right. And then if there's no footage to corroborate anybody's side, then it's just he said, she said, and whoever. Whatever legal team could paint the ugliest picture.

[Interviewer]

Right?

[Charay Hayes]

Right. So obviously, the defense wanted to paint consent. Prosecution wanted to paint force and coercion. But if you look at. If you can see the sex and it's mild and cool or whatever, then. But if you can't see, I think that makes it worse. So back to what you were saying about men being a threat. I feel like we're in a space and time where every successful man should record just about every encounter he has.

[Interviewer]

Wow, that's an interesting take.

[Charay Hayes]

You have to. You have to. I learned a very, very long time ago, I went to this place called the Spy Store in New York City, and we're talking, like late 90s, and the guy was showing me this kind of like clock radio. It looked like every clock radio that was in the hotel at that time, and you would just take it with you and plug it in and it recorded everything. And I'll never forget the guy said, hey, look, if. If Tupac and Mike Tyson had these, neither one of them would be in jail.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Charay Hayes]

Because it's going to record everything and timestamp it or whatever on little this, and you just save it in a computer. But now if you get an accusation on this date and this time, and it's just your word against hers, now, you.

[Interviewer]

That's crazy.

[Charay Hayes]

And you'll be surprised how many guys operate from that standpoint.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. NDAs aren't enough. Like you said, once it goes criminal, they're void.

[Charay Hayes]

Once it goes criminal, they avoid.

[Interviewer]

Yes. You need to, actually. So I guess you need their consent to record, though, right?

[Charay Hayes]

Well, you don't.

[Interviewer]

Oh, you don't.

[Charay Hayes]

What would you rather be? Right. Would you rather be if you don't have their consent to record and then you release it publicly, you messed up. Right, Right. But I'd rather be the rich guy that gets a lawsuit served and says, wait a second, I got that day in video. I would rather respond to the attorney, have the whole thing on video, and you can see none of this stuff happens, and then deal, whatever legal ramifications come for that, then deal with, he raped me or he sexually assaulted me, and it's my word against his. And now this is going to play out, Right?

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I need to tell this to Andrew Tate, man. He's dealing with a lot of girls going out.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. Yeah, man. You got. You got to. That's. That's what I would do personally, man. I would just.

[Interviewer]

It's not a. Not the worst strategy I've heard, to be honest, because what else are you going to do? It's going to be, he said, she said, it's going to be a settlement, usually.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. And from the smallest scenario, this is a little hack. You get one of these Apple watches.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

And the worst case scenario, you put it on.

[Interviewer]

Oh, you can record on that.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. Voice notes.

[Interviewer]

Oh, voice. So you think audio is good enough?

[Charay Hayes]

I mean, I would have something, right?

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Audio is probably better than nothing.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

[Interviewer]

What a strategy.

[Charay Hayes]

You keep on your watch and you just voice note and you. You get consent during the sex. You like that? I love it. Right.

[Interviewer/Commentator]

You know what I'm saying?

[Charay Hayes]

And then you could play that back. Aside from her saying, he forced me something, you gotta have something.

[Interviewer]

I know multiple really credible people around the Tyson case saying, he didn't. He didn't do that shit.

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah, man. It's just, you know, the thing about that was, you know, he performed the oral sex on her. Right. Not saying you can't force somebody to do that, but, you know, he's trying to create pleasure for her at the same time as supposedly raping her.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Charay Hayes]

It's like, nope, obviously it was the only two there. I think the moral of the story is if he was recording it or if he had something, could be a completely different scenario. And as a man, I want every scenario to prove my innocence 100%.

[Interviewer]

This has been fun, man. You still playing basketball these days?

[Charay Hayes]

Nah, man. I learned my lesson, man. I think I can still play in my mind the funny things when you get older. I played one day, and I felt like I was doing my thing, and somebody showed me a video, and I was like, oh, man, I look like Spice Adam.

[Interviewer/Commentator]

You know what I'm saying?

[Charay Hayes]

Yeah. I was like, nah, I'm good. I'm just watching for now. No more hooping.

[Interviewer]

All right, well, we'll have to play horse one of these days.

[Charay Hayes]

Oh, we can do horse, bro. We can do horse.

[Interviewer]

We'll do horse. Where can people find your book, man, and find you and keep up with you and everything?

[Charay Hayes]

Oh, yeah, man. In In Search of Freezer Me. It's available on Amazon, all major platforms. Good stuff, man. Just support it, fellas. I tell you, if you're struggling with anything, it'll help you out. My Instagram's at Get punished and same thing with the TikTok, but that's about it. Coming to light now.

[Interviewer]

Check them out, guys.

[Podcast Host]

Peace. I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe.

[Interviewer]

It helps the show a lot with the algorithm.

[Charay Hayes]

Thank you.