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Digital Social Hour
Smash Bros Legends: Behind the Scenes of Competitive Gaming and Esports - Hungrybox | DSH #1620
00:32:23
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- [00:00]
Hungrybox
I used to be the world champion before the pandemic, and now I'm back to top three, which I'm proud of. It's just like I got to push just a little bit further to get that world title back. It changed my life and honest to God, that changed my life overnight. Like that, basically.
- [00:11]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [00:11]
Hungrybox
It really just changed a lot of things for me. I quit my engineering job soon after I went Evo. I think less than a year after that, that was it. From that point on, I was full time gaming esports and built it into what it is now. It's nice, of course, to be the best at something, but to fall off and then get back to it, I think is twice as impressive.
- [00:32]
Interviewer
All right, guys, we got Hungrybox here out here for. For Evo, right?
- [00:35]
Hungrybox
Yeah. Doing some content with Evo and Zenny and Team Liquid.
- [00:38]
Interviewer
Nice. How's the conference been this year?
- [00:40]
Hungrybox
It's been good. I mean, the event's always packed full of people and, you know, I can only go a few feet before I like, stop and see someone that I know after that. It's unfortunate not having Smash Bros. That's anymore always breaks my heart, but I'm bringing Smash this time. Doing a little exhibition this weekend, so I'm excited for that too.
- [00:55]
Interviewer
Little side event.
- [00:56]
Hungrybox
Yeah, I gotta basically be beat as many people as I can in a row. Each person pays $5 and whoever beats me gets the whole jackpot. So when you're in Vegas, you got to gamble. So we're gonna see how far I get it. If I. If it gets to a thousand bucks, I take it home.
- [01:09]
Interviewer
Now, does fatigue play a role in that scenario? By like, how many hours are you playing for?
- [01:13]
Hungrybox
I'm playing for. I mean, for 180 games. I did the math. It starts at 100, ends at 2000. So it would be. Or I guess it'd be 19. Yeah, 100. I think it'll be 180 games. It that fatigue plays a role. But I think, I think I got it. I think. I think I'm good to go and. Because I'm just used to playing it. And you know, when you go to as many tournaments as I do, like, I don't know, you kind of get used to after a while.
- [01:37]
Interviewer
Yeah. I'd imagine for you at this point it's all muscle memory. Right? Like, you're just so used to doing the same moves.
- [01:42]
Hungrybox
It's. Muscle memory is a good part too, but also like the mentality plays into a factor. You got a lot of people who might Be patient. Try to bleed you out. A lot of matchups that are required just, you know, you can't get tilted. You can't, like, rush yourself in. So the. My muscles and my fingers actually never get tired because I. I played Jigglypuff, which is kind of like, not as an intensely demanding character, other ones in the game. But to play here at our max level, you need to have, like, your mind can't, like, falter for a second.
- [02:07]
Interviewer
That's an interesting part of the game, the mental side. Right. Because you all probably have similar skill levels at the top.
- [02:12]
Hungrybox
Yeah, it's pretty similar. Top level. The matchups, even you can argue there's a square of parody. You know, like, player A can beat B, B can beat C, C can beat D, Deacon Va. And it goes in kind of a crazy square at the top level. Melee does feel like that the rankings actually come out in, like, two weeks. I used to be the world champion before the pandemic, and now I'm back to top three.
- [02:30]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [02:31]
Hungrybox
Which I'm proud of. It's just like, I got to push just a little bit further to get that world title back.
- [02:35]
Interviewer
Yeah. So for the normies watching, are there certain characters that are just unplayable? Like, they're so bad.
- [02:39]
Hungrybox
And so I specialize in Melee, which is the one that came out 2001 for the GameCube. A lot of the kids nowadays, they play Ultimate. I play ultimate also, but I'm, like, definitely not, like, a top prototype by any means. But in Melee, there's definitely top tiers, high tiers, middle tiers, low tiers, and bottom tiers.
- [02:54]
Interviewer
Got it. And what separates those tiers, it's just.
- [02:57]
Hungrybox
How viable your character is. There's going to be some characters that just do not have the tools at all able to contest with a top tier, like Fox, Marth, Falco, Sheik, even Digglypuff. My character is considered a top tier. The worst characters in the game for Melee are, like, Bowser, Kirby. You know those. They're pretty bad. I know Ness is down there. Zelda is considered low. This. Yeah. It's just because Melee was developed and I think less than two years.
- [03:22]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [03:22]
Hungrybox
You know, and it almost never got paths and got one patch when it was released in Europe. I think for the PAL version, like, the fact that the game was as perfect as it is on, like, the first try is nothing short of a miracle.
- [03:34]
Interviewer
Some of my favorite childhood memories are playing that game on the GameCube.
- [03:37]
Hungrybox
It's just awesome. Like, you're not going to get it right the first try. But honestly, a decent like 13 to 14 of those characters in that game, I think given enough time, can just win a major.
- [03:46]
Interviewer
That's solid.
- [03:46]
Hungrybox
Yeah.
- [03:46]
Interviewer
So are the newer games more balanced out of margin?
- [03:48]
Hungrybox
They are more balanced, but also because a game like ultimate, you know, you get to iterate, right? You get to launch out updates and you can download them. And games like Melee, they were on these little discs so you couldn't update it once it's released. You just play test it as much as you could and hope for the best of your developer. I think back then 2001, it was when it was released, metas, competitive things, they weren't seen as. As serious a thing. I think it took a bunch of people who are, you know, super hardcore enthusiasts about the game to create a competitive scene. And then you kind of roll the punches, right? You take a game, you know, those characters that are bad. I mean, hell, we don't even use 95 or 90% of the stages in the game. We play on six stages. We use no items. But it creates kind of a really beautiful meta that is really fun to watch. And I mean, even viewership right now. A Smash Bros. Major for ultimate and a really good Smash Bros. Major for Melee will probably get the same viewership now. Really? Oh, yeah.
- [04:38]
Interviewer
Wow, that's fascinating.
- [04:39]
Hungrybox
When Brawl. When Melee. When bra. I'm sorry. When Brawl came out, Melee didn't die. Because Brawl and Melee were so different games. The Melee audience, they tried Brawl and they said, we don't really like this. We're gonna keep playing Melee. And then the new Brawl kids came. When Brawl died, Smash 4 came out. When Smash. When ultimate came out, Smash 4 died. So the Brawl audience goes to Smash 4 and they went to Ultimate. And when Smash 6 comes out, that entire ultimate audience, of course, is going to go to Smash 6 and ultimate will die. But Melee, it never really had a true sequel, is it?
- [05:08]
Interviewer
Because it's. The first one is just nostalgic for people.
- [05:10]
Hungrybox
You think it's actually the second one.
- [05:12]
Interviewer
Oh, the second one.
- [05:12]
Hungrybox
The first one was smash 64. For the. For the N64, which I think we, you know, you probably played growing up too, a little.
- [05:18]
Interviewer
I didn't play that one actually. My first cons, I'm 28.
- [05:21]
Hungrybox
You're 28?
- [05:22]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [05:22]
Hungrybox
Oh, man, I forgot how old I am. I'm an unk. I'm 32 status. Exactly. It's exactly what it feels like. But at the same time, you know, that game has. Has a little hardcore Audience too, that still plays it. They never really had a true sequel. Melee. The reason people still play it is because it's the fastest, it's the most fluid, it's the most hardcore of the games. And I think people who are compete at the top level for anything, speedrunners, that sort of thing, they really want the hardest challenge.
- [05:47]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [05:48]
Hungrybox
And even 24 years later, people are still discovering new tactics, new metas, even using characters are considered like bad. Like Donkey Kong was considered kind of a low tier character. Like it was kind of slept on. And like, I think in the past, like three years, four years maybe, there was like this thing called the Donkey Kong Renaissance. And you had a guy recently named Junebug. He got third place at like the biggest melee term of the entire year.
- [06:12]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [06:13]
Hungrybox
I think last year with DK Solo dk.
- [06:15]
Interviewer
That's crazy.
- [06:16]
Hungrybox
So who knows what we're gonna see next in the game. That's why, you know, for a game that has no updates, somehow the players keep figuring out how to update it.
- [06:24]
Interviewer
That's interesting. It's like those Speedrun videos. You see how someone always manages to beat the time of a game that's like 50 years old.
- [06:29]
Hungrybox
Oh, and I love speedruns. Right. Because that is, there's nothing short of perf. You have TAS Tool Assisted Speedruns. Those are going to show you how to be the game fast as possible. And I think watching humans get as close and as close as possible to becoming or matching the TAS level, it's just a fat. It's just beautiful to watch. It's a journey. Shout out to Summoning salt. By the way, one of the best YouTubers.
- [06:51]
Interviewer
Oh, his videos are great. I've seen it. Have you attempted any Speedruns yourself on anything?
- [06:55]
Hungrybox
I tried speedrunning Mario 64 did not go well. But I got the appeal. I got the appeal. Um, yeah, I can see why it's addicting for sure.
- [07:01]
Interviewer
It's no joke, right?
- [07:02]
Hungrybox
You got to know your stuff. And honestly, the cool part is once a new route is discovered, I think the newest trick, the newest major trick in Mario 64 is called Carpetless, which is like saves you, I don't know, like almost a full minute or something. Or 30 seconds at least. Um, but it happens at the end of the run. It's an extremely difficult, high risk maneuver. But of course, as soon as one guy pulled it off, he got the world record immediately. And so every other speedrunner was forced to do that crazy maneuver at the end and. And the record got passed around and stuff and it's just cool. It's like seeing the race to perfection constantly change every day.
- [07:34]
Interviewer
Do you play any other fighting games or just Melee?
- [07:37]
Hungrybox
I just, I just play Melee and I play Ultimate 2. I use Jigglypuff in both. And the only other game that really has taken over my life in my free time is Balatro. What's that one? Balatro is a poker roguelike. It's not gambling at all. It's a roguelike game. So you win a level, you go to the shop, you upgrade using jokers and you would think that sounds kind of weird for poker, but it was nominated for game of the year and I think it should have won in my opinion over Astro Boy.
- [08:01]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [08:01]
Hungrybox
Quite literally. And it was made by one guy just named localthunk who no one knows who he is, he's an anonymous person, but he just, he captured lightning in a bottle and made this, this perfectly addicting, beautiful roguelike game that has so many ways you can play it and it's a one player game and the community around it even made a mod to make it competitive and I play that interesting on stream sometimes too.
- [08:23]
Interviewer
So I think I might have seen clips of that on social media.
- [08:25]
Hungrybox
Probably. Yeah. But honestly, this makes me respect indie game dev so much because when you get a game that good, you're just. You deserve all the millions of dollars that you get for sure.
- [08:36]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah. Do you feel like any recent games are like solid? Like on. On PC? I'm a PC gamer.
- [08:42]
Hungrybox
I'm actually what I tell people is I'm the least gamer gamer you'll meet. That's me. Even liking Blotcher that much is rare for me because I usually just stick to smash. And I think the reason is I've tried variety, content and it's there too. But something about just how immersed I am in the meta in tournaments. I run tournaments also for Smash, the biggest online ones in the world actually. I'm just so immersed in the storylines and, you know, perfecting my craft in it too. That's where the majority of my audience is. And when it comes to other PC games, I think after like seven hours of streaming in a day, the last thing I want to do is. Is play more video games. So maybe it's me getting old too. But every once in a while a game will creep along like Balatra that I'm like, I'll play even outside of work on the plane on the way.
- [09:26]
Interviewer
Here, you know, other than smash, which fighting games would you say have the biggest communities like biggest viewership numbers, I would say.
- [09:32]
Hungrybox
I mean, we're at evil right now this weekend. I think the headlining is always going to be Street Fighter 6, but funnily enough, Street Fighter 6 is the biggest. But if Smash was here, like ultimate and they announced it to come back, I, I think it would quickly usurp that number one title.
- [09:46]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [09:47]
Hungrybox
Well, maybe this week, maybe this year. I'm not sure who would be number one, but Smash actually has the most copies sold of any fighting games.
- [09:53]
Interviewer
Holy crap.
- [09:54]
Hungrybox
Ultimate individually. So it has technically the biggest audience. It's just unfortunately, Nintendo doesn't see eye to eye with, I believe, like the western ideals of what esports are. I think they view it more as gambling. I'm just hoping one day they change their mind on it and they really see how special it is. And like, with a formalized ruleset, with a formalized community and the meta has been growing. It really isn't gambling at all. It's a true show of skill with almost, with very little randomness, you know, maybe a slight speck of randomness given certain matchups. But it really does show you these incredible storylines and these brands, these platforms that players build. They could be a young teenager from Tijuana, Mexico, you know, just a young kid and now he's, you know, king of North America. And Smash, I'm talking about Spargo and mkleo, great examples. Aquila, Japanese champion. Just these kids, they. Their entire lives change just by being good at Smash.
- [10:43]
Interviewer
That's cool.
- [10:44]
Hungrybox
And I just really wish Nintendo sometimes took the Capcom approach to these fighting games because Capcom really embraces the competitive community. They really allow, like, you know, everyone runs their tournaments. We have it here. This is like the Mecca fighting games, like the super bowl fighting games. It really does feel like Smash should belong here. So I was very fortunate and lucky that they allowed Melee to be here. The year that I won. Melee was here 2013 through 18 and I won in 2016, so. And it changed my life. Honest and honest to God, it changed my life overnight like that, basically.
- [11:15]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [11:15]
Hungrybox
It really just changed a lot of things for me. I quit my engineering job soon after I won Evo. I think less than a year after that. And that was it. From that point on, I was full time gaming esports and built it into what it is now.
- [11:27]
Interviewer
Holy crap.
- [11:28]
Hungrybox
And it had Nintendo just said no to that. I don't even know if I be here today still playing Smash.
- [11:33]
Interviewer
That's nuts.
- [11:34]
Hungrybox
So I'm truly hoping. Hey, I know you got a big audience in this podcast, I'm truly hoping at some point, you know, Nintendo, if they're watching. I said it every single time. If you embrace SMASH as an esport, it'll be the biggest one in the world, I promise.
- [11:44]
Interviewer
So they removed it in 2018 from Evo.
- [11:46]
Hungrybox
They removed it, but also I believe, I believe Sony took over evo and that might have been the conflict there.
- [11:53]
Interviewer
Got it.
- [11:53]
Hungrybox
I don't know the full details, but I know Sony does own EVO now and maybe part of the reason Nintendo doesn't have SMASH at EVO anymore, because I think Sony wants SMASH there. They don't mind it at all. They would be happy to have it. But I think it's. Nintendo doesn't want their game to be at a competing platform or interesting. Again, I'm not the businessman, that's my guess. But I still think Nintendo could actually make a lot of money. There's a lot of success and success and saw a lot of games by having SMASH here.
- [12:18]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah. Esports, is it still growing? I haven't been paying much attention to the numbers and the analytics on it.
- [12:23]
Hungrybox
But I mean, esports is a broad term. It's a pretty broad brushstroke. But I mean every single time that a new game comes out, every single time a streamer. And with the growth of, you know, all the streaming platforms is going exponential and all these influence becoming bigger and bigger celebrities. Like you could argue right now that one of the most famous people in the world is. I show speed. Right. There's always going to be famous actors, athletes, celebrities. But streaming is really becoming a new medium of entertainment and not just like one of the options, but like at the same level of television.
- [12:52]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [12:52]
Hungrybox
So. And it's only going to get higher from there. So gaming and streaming have become so intertwined and entrenched with each other that anytime you do have an esport, as long as that keeps growing, I do believe esports will continue in that same path.
- [13:03]
Interviewer
Yeah, you're right though. A lot of the top streamers do have some sort of gaming involved and content.
- [13:08]
Hungrybox
Yeah. And we're in our mass. I'll call it a bubble, but it's a massive bubble here in North America of what we know about esports. If you watch like, like LCS or League of Legends, you watch the DOTA Championships or whatever. But over in a place like China, like, I think my buddy, my buddy Lewis is my coach. He actually went to China. He lived there for six months this year and he told me he was watching, I believe the League of Legends. It was either MSI or the world or whatever. And if you look at the broadcast here in America, the Twitch broadcast for that had like I think 700, 000 live viewers or even up to a million.
- [13:36]
Interviewer
Holy crap.
- [13:36]
Hungrybox
And he told me like in China, if you added everything up, it had up to 30 million concurrent viewers. That's like live for a video game, right? So you have to imagine, like, remember, we are not alone in North America, the rest of the world, especially China, they take these games seriously.
- [13:51]
Interviewer
Those Asians can game, man. Of course, League of Legends especially, right?
- [13:57]
Hungrybox
I mean, yeah, league is huge over there, but you know, even over in China, I think you have games. I think it's called Hip hop.
- [14:02]
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- [15:08]
Hungrybox
Trying to remember what it was, but it's a mobile game and there's a website called esports earnings.com where you can. You can see kind of a general estimate. It's not always accurate, but a general estimate of which pro athletes have made the most money not on their streams, but the most money just off cash prizes in gaming. And the highest one ever I believe is Dota. Because Dota had the international. And what Dota really did right was they use crowdfunding. They had this big bundle you would buy as a viewer. You'd buy the viewer get cool new items, cool new skins, I believe. But a percentage of what you bought would go into that bundle. Big prize pool, right? And you'd have prize pools. It started out, I think a million dollars and one time was 5 million. At one time was $10 million. So these guys, teams of five, they'd go, they'd win the international and walk home millionaires.
- [15:52]
Interviewer
That's nuts.
- [15:53]
Hungrybox
Off one of them single tournament. Wow, that's beautiful. To me, man. That's the way it should be.
- [15:57]
Interviewer
That is nuts. I. I watch some of these mobile games, believe it or not.
- [16:00]
Hungrybox
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [16:01]
Interviewer
I watch Clash Royale, if you know that one.
- [16:03]
Hungrybox
I'm sorry, yeah, that was for Dot I was talking about. But I was gonna get to exactly the mobile games. Now that market, even in China or whatever it is, mobile games have huge payouts if you're good at it.
- [16:12]
Interviewer
So yeah, Clash Royale I think pays out six or seven figs.
- [16:15]
Hungrybox
It's insane.
- [16:15]
Interviewer
Clash Royale.
- [16:16]
Hungrybox
It's crazy. We're lucky to see it like four figures in Smash Bros. For a tournament. So. And that's the thing. Smash has such a big audience compared to the money you win in tournaments. Like you really don't win a lot of money at all at tournaments. You make a living off of Smash Bros. With content with streams, Twitch and YouTube and sponsorships.
- [16:33]
Interviewer
So what's causing that discrepancy with the tournament payouts versus the viewership numbers?
- [16:37]
Hungrybox
Well, I believe that the reason these big money has to come from somewhere, right?
- [16:42]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [16:42]
Hungrybox
And Capcom for instance, for Street Fighter, they run the Capcom cup. And who do you think provides the prize pool for that? Capcom, because it's a great advertising thing. One player goes home with a quarter million dollars, but they get to, they get to showcase their game. Even the inside game arenas, when you're fighting the stages have EVO branding on them. It's all integrated. It's really, really beautiful. Nintendo just. Yeah, they just. I think because of their views on esports, they don't put money into prize pools for these sorts of things. And if they. I just really wish they realize what a spectacle, I mean truly what a worldwide phenomenon Smash Bros. Would be across the world if they just took that risk. Smash 6 is going to come out and we're, we're long. We're actually, we're actually overdue for new Smash title as of last month. It has now been the longest time between two Smash titles.
- [17:31]
Interviewer
So they're taking their time on this one.
- [17:32]
Hungrybox
Yeah, I believe it was because of COVID too, obviously. It's basically a two year buffer for everything. But I think ultimate came out 2018. So it's been seven years. Wow, that is at least seven years. Yeah, I could be wrong 2017, but yeah. So with the Switch 2. Now everyone's kind of looking at them and Sakurai. Only thing is Sakurai who made Smash, she's making Kirby Air Riders. Now we're just hoping whatever comes next is upgrade.
- [17:54]
Interviewer
I hope it's a good one.
- [17:55]
Hungrybox
Yeah, we all do.
- [17:56]
Interviewer
Man, I haven't played in a while. I feel like Melee is hard to beat personally.
- [17:59]
Hungrybox
What do you use in smash?
- [18:01]
Interviewer
I'm a. So in melee or I can guess your character. Gas Guess.
- [18:06]
Hungrybox
Samus?
- [18:07]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [18:07]
Hungrybox
Oh my God.
- [18:08]
Interviewer
Isn't that like everyone uses that one though, right?
- [18:10]
Hungrybox
No, really, I just hard read you. You're Samus.
- [18:13]
Interviewer
Yeah. I thought that was a common one.
- [18:15]
Hungrybox
I'm goaded.
- [18:16]
Interviewer
What gave that away, bro?
- [18:18]
Hungrybox
I don't know. Just like your demeanor.
- [18:20]
Interviewer
Interesting.
- [18:21]
Hungrybox
You seem like a studious kind of guy. You do your research. You got. You got. You got decent posture. I don't know, something just. Something just said Samus to me.
- [18:29]
Interviewer
I guess Samus users are kind of nerdy, right?
- [18:33]
Hungrybox
One of one of my favorite times players can name Plup. He's actually here for Evo for rivals of Ether Legend legendary player.
- [18:39]
Interviewer
Damn. You guessed it. Shit.
- [18:41]
Hungrybox
Damn. That's wild.
- [18:42]
Interviewer
That is wild, dude. Team Liquid. How's that going? I know you were sponsored in 2015, then you became a co owner in 2021. How did that journey happen?
- [18:50]
Hungrybox
Yeah, just they took Steve Aronset, the co CEO. He was the CEO of Curse Esports. Took a chance on me when I was in college. It was a very basic sponsorship, you know like a few flights here and there. We had to stream on a platform called Ozubu which that didn't work out but I was still happy to be, you know to wear the jersey when you're a kid in college, you know it just graduated out and you're just getting your feet wet in the. Even in the engineering industry. Anytime someone's going to pay to play video games or even give you a flight somewhere, like you don't take it for granted. I was very happy to do it. The really lucky part was that Team Liquid and Curse Esports combined or Liquid acquired Curse Esports and then Steve Aronsett and Victor goosens became co CEOs. I was a player on Curse when that merger happened and I became like the world champion in 2016 and rank one in 2017. So I think they found value in me keeping those titles going. Yeah, 20, 18, 19 and the more I won people, I had fans but I also had a lot of haters when I was winning a lot. I think when they. When the pandemic happened and tournaments didn't happen in person anymore. I was at home and I realized the only thing you could really enter was online tournaments. Online tournaments for Melee weren't really a thing then, but there was tons of online tournaments for ultimate and an Ultimate. I was not a top player, but I guess that made me more likable. I was like, I wasn't expected to win. But Jigglypuff and Ultimate, she's almost like a troll character because you have to land some crazy ass maneuver to win with her and it's super entertaining if you do. She's kind of like a hero character in that game. We're like a middle tier, like she was like a low tier. So I started playing. I think everyone was just crazy, going crazy, stuck at home and all they could really do is watch Twitch streams and my viewership like 10x in a single night.
- [20:28]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [20:29]
Hungrybox
Just streaming these ultimate tournaments. And ever since then I had a platform on Twitch. I had enough subscribers to live off of and enough support to just make it a full time thing.
- [20:37]
Interviewer
That's awesome.
- [20:37]
Hungrybox
So even this week, even now, I'll still internal Twitter online. And that led to the creation of the box tournament series which was called Juicebox Lunchbox for my followers. Free to enter tournaments. One time I was like subscribe to enter. And then for like two to three years Team Liquid partner with Coinbase. They're still partnered with them. But one of the coolest things about that partnership is that around the time I got offered to become co owner, they said, well, if you're going to be co owner, we really want you to spearhead this partnership. So we came with this amazing idea called Coinbox where it was $2,000 weekly free to enter online ultimate tournaments. And they were a hit man. People, sick people love them. I'm still, I'm very thankful I had that pier in my life to host that. And I'm working on a sequel to that series because after a few years I think Nintendo expressed Team Liquid that they weren't very comfortable with that tournament of that size. Really being sponsored by crypto. Yeah.
- [21:34]
Interviewer
But Coinbase is like the most trusted exchange in the U.S. i know, that's nuts.
- [21:38]
Hungrybox
Again, it's just sometimes I really, really wish I was like a fly on the wall Nintendo or I really, really wish like I had. We just had some kind of like an official esports liaison there. Someone who's well versed in Japanese culture, well versed in like American culture that can truly bridge the gap there because sometimes you Know, it's like they don't want. There's a lot of like, we're sponsored by Monster Energy. But for instance, like, they wouldn't necessarily want an energy drink sponsor for one of their tournaments. So it's like not only do they not put in money to fund these events or prize pools, they also tell tournaments you can't have these sponsors.
- [22:12]
Interviewer
Wow. So you can't even wear your jersey, basically.
- [22:14]
Hungrybox
Yeah, I can't. I can, but like, if Nintendo is hosting an event. Yeah, I can't wear it.
- [22:19]
Interviewer
Holy crap.
- [22:19]
Hungrybox
Yeah. They make everyone wear black shirts.
- [22:21]
Interviewer
That's crazy. I might have to moderate a debate or something. A conversation.
- [22:24]
Hungrybox
I would. Nothing more. But you know what? What I will say is that Nintendo, even though it's like Nintendo Japan leads everything. Nintendo of America for a good time. I think they were really understanding how special esports was.
- [22:35]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [22:36]
Hungrybox
And one of the guys who really, really understood it. And we're actually. We're actually friends on Twitter. We chat every once in a while. Reggie Fusemi. Reggie was the president of Nintendo. He. We got. I got invited to do like a big exhibition with him. I think it was at the Nintendo World Championships where him and I did a 1v1 in Smash Bros. The new one. And I was using Jigglypuff and he was using Ryu because Ryu had just come out from Smash.
- [22:56]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [22:56]
Hungrybox
And we, we just did, you know, a silly game obviously with items on and obviously like I beat him up pretty bad because, you know, he's. He's the CEO of a company, like I said, and I'm just a pro gamer. But after the fact, like he really. I remember I spoke to him and he just really expressed to me that he really would have loved a more Nintendo in a more official capacity to embrace the esports sides of things. So I don't know, man.
- [23:20]
Interviewer
When was that?
- [23:22]
Hungrybox
Him and I did the exhibition, I think, think in 2017.
- [23:27]
Interviewer
Oh, wow. So maybe he just didn't have the pole.
- [23:29]
Hungrybox
It was right before Ultimate.
- [23:30]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's rough, man.
- [23:33]
Hungrybox
Or I'm gonna get the years wrong. So it's been so long, but I've been playing, competing now and doing pro gaming. Officially. I started when I was 13, so it's been 19 years now.
- [23:42]
Interviewer
Crazy.
- [23:43]
Hungrybox
And in 19 years there was that chance of Nintendo embracing it. There was also this other org that had a world championship brewing, but just. I think a lot of bad decisions were made. And when you're gonna. When you're gonna do something like on a Jupiter mountainous scale with Smash, an official scale with that much money in it, you really have to have the blessing. Both of the people running it, which was, I guess Nintendo and the Org, they were known as Panda, but also the blessing of the community as well.
- [24:13]
Interviewer
And they didn't have either.
- [24:15]
Hungrybox
There was that. There was some. There was unfortunately, like some. Just some bad decisions, I guess. I mean, people can go to themselves and see what was happening, but basically, like, I think they. They wanted too much from the community and it wasn't done, I think, in good faith and people found out and it just. The whole thing fell apart. And that was pretty much our last chance of getting Nintendo anywhere near us for. On anything official. So I understand sometimes why they don't do it, but everything. Every time a new Smash game comes out, there's always a chance to turn the page on a blank slate and to do things properly. But for the most part, we're basically on our own.
- [24:53]
Interviewer
Wow. We've been a grassroots, like an abandoned.
- [24:56]
Hungrybox
I think Smash Bros is safely, unless I'm forgetting when safely, the largest grassroots community of a video game competitively in the world.
- [25:04]
Interviewer
How many numbers is that? You do know?
- [25:06]
Hungrybox
I mean, on a good tournament, how.
- [25:08]
Interviewer
Many people play, I guess, play and watch.
- [25:10]
Hungrybox
It's got to be millions.
- [25:11]
Interviewer
Still millions.
- [25:12]
Hungrybox
I mean, I mean, it's Smash Bros. Man.
- [25:14]
Interviewer
It's like because the game's 20, everyone.
- [25:15]
Hungrybox
Knows Smash Bros. You know, the game's 20 years old, as always, new version, people in frat rooms play it, kids play it, adults play it. You know, it's just like rappers mention it in their songs. Like Smash Bros is just like such a culturally good thing. But I don't know. All I can do is hope at this point. But in the meanwhile, like I said, I've been running my own tournament series and we're trying to bring that back with Team Liquid.
- [25:35]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [25:36]
Hungrybox
Because someone's got to step up and run the terrace.
- [25:38]
Interviewer
So you're mainly focused on the content side of things and professional at the.
- [25:41]
Hungrybox
Moment, it's half content and half competing, I think, because in melee, because I compete in that, I'm so close to getting back rank one again that, you know, I got to see that through. There's also, like the discussion, you know, it's nice, of course, to be the best at something, but to fall off and then get back to it, I think is twice as impressive. So it's almost like a personal goal of mine that I want to do that for.
- [26:02]
Interviewer
I would put you in the goat conversation if you're not already.
- [26:04]
Hungrybox
I'D imagine goat conversation is definitely a very interesting one.
- [26:08]
Interviewer
Is that something you think about at.
- [26:09]
Hungrybox
All or they always. I'm always in the discussion for like the third most likely to get it.
- [26:15]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [26:15]
Hungrybox
But now they're calling me second most likely to get it because the guy who usually gets it, Mango, he's not active right now but like he has longevity. I also have longevity. But Armada, the other guy in the conversation, he was kind of wiping the floor both of us when he was active. He was definitely the best when he was active. But then he retired in 2018 kind of surprised everyone and then at his peak he retired. Yeah, his peak is retired.
- [26:37]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [26:38]
Hungrybox
Yeah, right after his peak. So it's been seven years with no Armada. So. But he was that good. Where people are still talking about. It's kind of like the Jordan LeBron debris.
- [26:45]
Interviewer
Yeah. Short and sweet.
- [26:47]
Hungrybox
Yeah. Kind of like that versus yeah. The guy who's been still winning stuff. Longevity afterwards.
- [26:52]
Interviewer
Is there like a hall of fame or esports awards or anything?
- [26:56]
Hungrybox
I. Well there is esports awards. I actually won a couple of them. I was nominated actually. Oddly enough I'm nominated for controller player of the decade.
- [27:03]
Interviewer
Damn.
- [27:04]
Hungrybox
So that's going to reveal in August. I'm definitely not win that because I'm against some legends in the first person shooter community and those are what works are formal shot C Imperial Hall. Yeah there's a really huge and I think Imperial has an apex player and their games. Cotton Halo, like it's just smash is big. But those are also massive communities. Both I was really thankful because two years ago they awarded me with esports creator of the year probably because of the coinbox series.
- [27:31]
Interviewer
Nice.
- [27:32]
Hungrybox
So that was a really good honor. It was nice to to have that accolade because I always thought well I could be really good at one thing Melee but content maybe I'm not cut out for it. So that just justified and really validated the fact that I can do it too. So it was a really special thing.
- [27:44]
Interviewer
No, that's an impressive transition to me because a lot of gamers are so locked in on the game they give up their social skills and their social side.
- [27:50]
Hungrybox
So when. When fandoms are made, dude, like in any sport also like if you have a guy who's really good at basketball, right. You watch him all the time, you start to idolize him and let's say he goes on an interview, he cracks a funny ass joke and you start laughing suddenly like damn. I went from liking this guy to loving this guy. I'm a Huge. This guy's awesome. Right. So you become really a genuine bonafide fan. And I think in the Smash community a lot of things too. You can have players that are amazing in the game, but maybe outside of the game they're kind of shy, they're kind of quiet. There's some things. Maybe you have someone who's. Who's a huge shit talker, maybe have a guy who's just a sweetheart. You never know. And the cool things is personality. Sometimes they really go hand in hand with play styles. Yeah, that I noticed.
- [28:30]
Interviewer
Really?
- [28:31]
Hungrybox
Oh, yeah. Like, I think, you know, me and. Me and Mango and Melee is a great example. I play puff, he plays the space animals. But he does a super aggressive, flashy style. He's known for being a talker. He's known for getting under your skin, kind of poking at you a bit, see what happens. I'm the kind of guy who plays it safe. I play Jigglypuff. I'll bleed you out for what it is. But then at the last second, I go for an all nothing rest. And in my. When I win, I pop off really loud and I jump up out of my chair.
- [28:55]
Interviewer
I love that.
- [28:55]
Hungrybox
And that's kind of like a rest in real life. So it's just art imitates life sometimes.
- [29:00]
Interviewer
I'm a fan of the shit talk and I think every sport should include it.
- [29:02]
Hungrybox
Shit talk is actually very, very important. As long as it's like, good, kind of respectful.
- [29:07]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:08]
Hungrybox
Sometimes it, it goes.
- [29:09]
Interviewer
Has it ever gotten to that point for you?
- [29:11]
Hungrybox
For me? Yeah. I mean, I've had. I've had some people who really did hate me.
- [29:15]
Interviewer
They crossed the line.
- [29:16]
Hungrybox
Oh, yeah?
- [29:17]
Interviewer
What were they like? What happened?
- [29:19]
Hungrybox
I mean, I'm not, I'm not going to go too much into it because I. I like staying unbothered now, like peaceful. What it is, is, you know, I just had people make videos about me and just really say really just awful, unfair stuff about me.
- [29:32]
Interviewer
Oh, I meant in a match, but.
- [29:33]
Hungrybox
Oh, in a. No, the shit. The shit talk. In a match. No, no, no, that's. Right now there's respect. Like, they see me and I think because I've been in the scene so long, like, even if they, if I beat them, it's just. It's kind of corny. If you should talk someone immediately, it just is corny. It's like, why are you doing that?
- [29:48]
Interviewer
Yeah, because you're gonna play them again in like a week, probably.
- [29:50]
Hungrybox
Yeah. But of course, back when I was rank one, the Twitter fingers, bro, oh.
- [29:54]
Interviewer
You popped off on Twitter.
- [29:55]
Hungrybox
They popped off on me, bro. They were. I was, I was getting dogpiled. But like nowadays, you know, I don't know. A lot, a lot of happened that changed. Like some guy threw a crab at me. A crab.
- [30:06]
Interviewer
Oh, was this the dead fish thing or was this something?
- [30:08]
Hungrybox
Yeah, the dead crab. Yeah, dead crab. Threw a dead crab at me. In 2019 after I won a tournament that caused a series of events that led one guy, YouTuber named Amplemon to make a YouTube video on me about my story. I ended up getting 10 million views.
- [30:22]
Interviewer
Holy crap.
- [30:22]
Hungrybox
That completely changed my entire life too. That's what made my channel blow up and do all that. But it also like it. It told my story in a really fairway that I had. He also went to my school UF and I think he had a probably like a broken interview can do all this and he's like, yeah, I'm sure. I wasn't sure how big it was going to be, but it ended up being this really, really big video and people still like quoted to this day. And what's also cool about that video is that it's a time capsule for melee from the years like 2015 onwards. There's a Smash Bros documentary called the Smash Brothers awesome one made by Sam Ox that covers all of smash history from like 2004 to like 2015. And the hbox documentary I feel is 2015 onwards.
- [31:08]
Interviewer
Got it.
- [31:09]
Hungrybox
And so again, I was really thankful for him capturing that. Capturing the stories he gets most information. Right. Some of it has an age great because in hindsight it just like it was made during certain sentiments right there. But for the most part he really told my story well. Really thankful for.
- [31:24]
Interviewer
I got to check that out. I didn't realize how much hate you got back in the day.
- [31:26]
Sponsor/Host
Geez.
- [31:26]
Hungrybox
Yeah. Yeah. I was winning way too much. And also my personality was really not that good.
- [31:32]
Interviewer
At least you could admit it now.
- [31:33]
Hungrybox
No. And I also just wasn't all that great of a person in general. I had a lot of growing up to do as well. So looking back like, I totally get it. But I don't regret it. I don't regret it because it put.
- [31:43]
Interviewer
Me here, made you who you are.
- [31:44]
Hungrybox
And that's who I want to be.
- [31:45]
Interviewer
I love it.
- [31:46]
Hungrybox
That's who I am. Yeah.
- [31:46]
Interviewer
Well, where can people support you find your future tournaments and everything, man.
- [31:50]
Hungrybox
Twitch TV, Hungrybox and then I have a YouTube also Hungrybox and then my socials Liquid HBOX on Twitter and Liquid HBOX on Instagram. Just type in Hungrybox somewhere on Google and you will find something about me.
- [32:02]
Interviewer
Perfect.
- [32:02]
Hungrybox
And yeah content. Hopefully every week from now until when I retire.
- [32:06]
Interviewer
Good luck tonight. Hopefully you win 180 straight man. Hopefully. Check them out guys. Peace.
- [32:13]
Sponsor/Host
I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe.
- [32:16]
Interviewer
It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.