The $10K Mistake Marketers Repeat Every Month | Frank Anderson DSH #994

Summary

Podcast Summary: Digital Social Hour – "The $10K Mistake Marketers Repeat Every Month" with Dr. Frank Anderson | DSH #994

Episode Details:

• Title: The $10K Mistake Marketers Repeat Every Month
• Host: Sean Kelly
• Guest: Dr. Frank Anderson
• Release Date: December 19, 2024

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1. Introduction to Trauma and Its Impact

[00:00 – 00:30]

Sean Kelly opens the episode by highlighting the increasing prevalence of trauma, particularly among teenagers. He introduces Dr. Frank Anderson, a renowned psychiatrist specializing in trauma treatment since 1992. The discussion sets the stage for exploring the deep-seated effects of trauma on individuals and society.

2. The Mental Health Crisis in Youth

[00:30 – 01:15]

Dr. Frank Anderson emphasizes the severity of the mental health crisis facing today’s teenagers. He notes the dual pressures they face: excessive societal expectations and an over-identification with trauma.

Dr. Frank Anderson ([00:40]): "There’s a mental health crisis for teenagers right now in a big way. It's interesting. The younger population has way too much pressure and they overly identify with trauma."

3. Dr. Anderson’s Personal Trauma Journey

[01:15 – 04:26]

Frank delves into his personal history, revealing his experiences with conversion therapy in the 1960s after being caught playing with a Barbie doll. He discusses the long-term effects of such trauma, including abusive parenting and the struggle with his sexual identity.

Dr. Frank Anderson ([02:07]): "It's not skin care. It's healing. Because the energy of trauma has a negative effect on us."

Frank shares his journey through psychiatric training at Harvard, where he began to unpack his own trauma. He stresses the importance of having a trauma history to authentically engage in trauma treatment.

Dr. Frank Anderson ([01:24]): "Don’t spend your life in trauma treatment unless you have a trauma history."

4. The Cycle of Trauma in Relationships

[04:26 – 11:00]

Frank discusses how unresolved trauma often leads individuals to repeat unhealthy relationship patterns. He shares his personal experiences of marrying a woman and later entering an abusive relationship before finding a healthy, long-term partnership after extensive healing.

Dr. Frank Anderson ([09:49]): "I married my mother. I became my father. I'm like, that didn't work, right."

He elaborates on the concept that individuals often subconsciously seek partners with similar wounds as a means to heal, inadvertently perpetuating trauma cycles.

5. Transgenerational Trauma and Parenting

[11:00 – 19:16]

The conversation shifts to transgenerational trauma, where Frank explains how unresolved trauma can be passed down through generations. He shares his own challenges as a parent, including neglecting his eldest son’s emotional needs due to his focus on healing and managing his youngest son's special needs.

Dr. Frank Anderson ([14:03]): "You pass it down."

Frank and Sean discuss the importance of accountability and open communication in breaking these harmful cycles. Frank recounts a transformative conversation with his son, highlighting the significance of acknowledging and addressing one’s own traumas to improve parenting.

6. Institutional and Religious Trauma

[19:16 – 28:21]

Dr. Anderson explores various forms of institutional trauma, including systemic inequalities faced by minorities and the pervasive issue of religious trauma. He discusses how institutions like the Catholic Church have historically abused power, leading to deep psychological scars.

Dr. Frank Anderson ([28:22]): "When you’re traumatized, you internalize perpetrator energy."

He shares personal anecdotes, including his husband’s traumatic experiences with a strict Pentecostal upbringing and the resulting impact on their family life. Frank emphasizes the layered complexity of religious trauma, which intertwines spirituality with abuse, exacerbating feelings of shame and self-hatred.

7. Societal Polarization and Shared Trauma

[28:21 – 38:44]

Frank addresses the current political and social polarization, arguing that deep-seated traumas contribute to extreme partisanship. He advocates for recognizing shared human traumas to bridge divides, sharing a poignant story of reconciling with a conservative neighbor through mutual understanding of trauma.

Dr. Frank Anderson ([35:14]): "We all have more in common than we are different."

He stresses that acknowledging both personal and collective traumas can foster empathy and reduce “othering,” which is essential for societal healing.

8. Perpetrator Energy and Personal Accountability

[37:29 – 38:44]

Frank introduces the concept of "perpetrator energy," explaining that those who have been traumatized often harbor the capacity to harm others as a defense mechanism. He shares his own struggles with anger and how returning to therapy helped him prevent passing on trauma to his children.

Dr. Frank Anderson ([37:29]): "Everybody who is traumatized also absorbs perpetrator energy."

9. Final Thoughts and Call to Healing

[38:44 – End]

In his concluding remarks, Frank urges listeners to embrace vulnerability and mutual accountability as pathways to healing. He emphasizes that personal growth and societal improvement are achievable through understanding and addressing shared traumas.

Dr. Frank Anderson ([39:05]): "If we acknowledge the ways we've harmed and the way we've been harmed and we heal it, we're all going to repair."

He encourages listeners to seek professional help and engage in continuous self-reflection to break free from destructive trauma cycles.

Key Takeaways:

• Understanding Trauma: Trauma significantly impacts mental health, relationships, and societal structures.
• Personal Healing Journey: Acknowledging and addressing personal trauma is crucial for genuine healing and preventing the perpetuation of trauma in future generations.
• Transgenerational and Institutional Trauma: Trauma can be inherited and socially ingrained, requiring collective efforts for resolution.
• Breaking Polarization: Recognizing shared traumas can bridge societal divides and foster empathy.
• Perpetrator Energy: Everyone has the capacity to harm, influenced by their trauma, highlighting the need for accountability and continuous healing.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Frank Anderson ([00:40]): "There’s a mental health crisis for teenagers right now in a big way."
• Dr. Frank Anderson ([09:49]): "I married my mother. I became my father. I'm like, that didn't work, right."
• Dr. Frank Anderson ([25:31]): "Can't we just be who we are? End of story."
• Dr. Frank Anderson ([37:29]): "Everybody who is traumatized also absorbs perpetrator energy."
• Dr. Frank Anderson ([39:05]): "If we acknowledge the ways we've harmed and the way we've been harmed and we heal it, we're all going to repair."

Resources:

• Dr. Frank Anderson’s Website: frankandersonmd.com
• Social Media Handles:
  • Instagram: @frankandersonmd
  • LinkedIn, Facebook, X (Twitter): Available on his website

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Conclusion: In this profound episode of Digital Social Hour, Dr. Frank Anderson shares his extensive experience and personal journey with trauma, offering valuable insights into how unresolved pain affects individuals and society. Through honest dialogue, he emphasizes the importance of healing, accountability, and empathy in overcoming the pervasive effects of trauma.

Transcript

[A]

Now than I did 10 or 20 years ago.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

It's true. It's. People are like, what do you use for skin care? I'm like, it's not skin care. It's healing. Because the energy of trauma has a negative effect on us. And the more I release it, the younger I think I feel. And look, I could see that because.

[B]

There'S some old people where you could see the trauma on their body, like the wrinkles, like the damage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's cool. All right, guys, we're going to talk trauma today. We got Dr. Frank Anderson. Thanks for coming on, man.

[A]

It's good to be here. Thank you for having me.

[B]

Yeah. Important topic. You know, we were just talking about public school and all the trauma kids are dealing with. And is that a big reason about why you're teaching it?

[A]

It's part of the reason. Just because so many kids. I mean, there's a mental health crisis for teenagers right now in a big way. It's interesting. This kind of. The younger population has way too much pressure and they overly identify with trauma. So it's a crazy combination for them, interestingly enough. Too much burden, too much power, and too much overwhelming. So it's not really the reason I'm into trauma. I've been doing it my whole Life, really, since 1992. But it's because of my own trauma history, honestly.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

Truth speak. Told you, don't spend your life in trauma treatment unless you have a trauma history. I was sorry about that.

[B]

Yeah. Right now the traumas are different and more evolved because of social media. But you were dealing with a different type in 92. Right. So what was that trauma like? And what was the process to overcome that?

[A]

Yeah. Well, it's. Here I am 61 years old, so it's been a lifelong journey.

[B]

I was 61.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

I would never stop.

[A]

Isn't. I'm. I'm super lucky. I actually think it's all the healing that I've done, honestly, makes me look younger. I probably look younger now than I did 10 or 20 years.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

It's true. It's. People are like, what do you use for skincare? I'm like, it's not skin care. It's healing. Because the energy of trauma has a negative effect on us. And the more I release it, the younger I think I feel. And look, I can see that because.

[B]

There'S some old ankle where you could see the trauma on their body, like the wrinkles, like the damage. Yeah. So that's cool.

[A]

So for me, it Started. And I just wrote this memoir recently called To Be Loved. It's been, like, my life's journey to be loved. But I had. And this is a long time ago, so this is in the 60s. Got caught playing with a Barbie doll in my cousin's basement. And back then, that was a no. No, really, 100%. So my parents. The book starts. I said, you're not going to school today, Frankie. I'm like, why? We're going to the hospital. But why? I wasn't sick. There was nothing really wrong with me that I knew. I went for psych testing, and I was in conversion therapy, a form of convergent therapy for 60 years. Yeah, they have that background, 100%. I didn't go. They didn't send me away to a camp. But I was weekly therapy and kind of programmed to be like a normal boy. You have to play sports, you have to be. Play baseball, you have to go fishing, you have to do hunting. Here, shoot this gun. Like, all this kind of stuff. My parents, like, regret it now, looking back, but back then, being gay was a disorder, right? It was. It wasn't until, like, the 80s that it got taken out of the, like, the D to sound and stuff like that. So from a very early age, I was told, you are wrong. There's something wrong with you. You're a problem, and you need to change. So I held that for most of my life. In addition to that, my dad was pretty abusive, physically and verbally. So I grew up in an environment where it was kind of a shit show, honestly, to tell you the truth, for a very long time. And with this programming of, like, this is how you have to be. I ended up marrying a woman and went to medical school. I was constantly striving to be smart to get my father's love. Like, that was my whole purpose in life. Be smart, be smart, be smart. Wow. Got into Harvard and then as a psychiatrist, which is I became a psychiatrist. Then I was like, all right, start looking at yourself. Like, what's up here? They encourage you to go into therapy when you're in your training to become a psychiatrist. And then I started unpacking my trauma history.

[B]

Wow. So you had no idea you had it, right?

[A]

Not really, no. There was a family member who had mental illness when I was in college. It freaked me out. Like, they were screw spiders on my face. They were getting psychotic. They were bipolar. Right. And that was, like, hugely impactful for me at the time. I didn't know. Like, it impacted me because it tapped into, like, my own Pain. I was more like focused on their pain. I gotta help them. I gotta help them. But, you know, surprise, surprise, here I am later. It's like, oh, a lot of this is more about.

[B]

This episode of Digital Social Hour is brought to you by BetterHelp, making it easy and affordable to access online therapy. Give it a [e-mail] DSH and get on your way to being your best self. The holidays are a tricky time of the year for a lot of people, and I like to stay cozy and warm at home with my favorite movies and a warm blanket and. And also some BetterHelp. With a lot of time to reflect during the winter months, therapy is a great way to embrace what's on our mind and find comfort that doesn't leave us even as the holidays fade away. Even if you've never tried therapy or always wondered about its effects, BetterHelp's online therapy option can be a helpful tool to learn about positive coping mechanisms and set boundaries that will aid you in years and events to come. It doesn't just take trauma to make therapy worthwhile, as we want to empower everyone to be the best version of themselves. If you're thinking about therapy, give BetterHelp a try with its online platform designed to be convenient and suited to your schedule. All you have to do is fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist with the freedom to switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Find peace and comfort this December with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.comDSHTODAY to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp.

[A]

H-E-L-P.comDSH about me than it is about helping others. It's also about helping others. Don't get me wrong.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But yeah, that's been my journey of helping people heal from trauma. All different kinds.

[B]

Wow. Yeah, you had a few there. You had the trauma of being gay and then the parental trauma. Yeah, those are two really difficult ones.

[A]

And then the. The combination. My mom and this happens. Typically if you've got an abusive parent in some way, you have a passive parent. So my mom was very passive and kind of tolerated everything. She needed the family to stay together because she wasn't strong enough to leave him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it was. It was a. It is what it is. I'm. I'm glad I'm here now. I can tell you that I've done a lot of work healing and I've helped a lot of people heal.

[B]

That's amazing. Yeah, we'll dive into that. Yeah. I remember when I was in high school, I'm catching the tail end of this. But kids coming out as gay was a really big, big deal. Now I feel like it's a little better, right?

[A]

It's better. You know, it's interesting. It's a lot better. Culture and society are more open to that. But teen suicide for gay kids is still rampant. Real. It's still crazy. So, yeah, it's better in some ways, and in other ways, it's still difficult, you know, which bothers me that it's still such an issue, because culture and society are better with it. But going through the experience of being wrong, knowing you're wrong, and not fitting in is still having a huge impact, Right?

[B]

Yeah. There's a lot of shame and guilt. My fiance's best friends, both of them are gay, and they didn't come out till after college because I think they're scared of their classmates because of parents.

[A]

Yeah. Even now. Even now. Yeah, it's not, you know, it was much worse back then. Much worse right then.

[B]

Yeah, it's a shame. But I hope we can get to a good spot with it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I think I feel good. Here's where I am at now. I'm like, look, this is who I am. I got a trauma history. I'm gay. If you have a problem with it, it's your problem. It's now my problem, because I'm okay with who I am now. And that took me a long time to be there.

[B]

Honestly, 61 years.

[A]

That's exactly right.

[B]

So, rekindling with your dad, what was that process? Ah.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. And, you know, I did rekindle with him, which I feel really grateful for. Most of my life, I hated him.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Most of my life, I hated him. There was a period of time when I was at my residency program and I started uncovering my trauma. I tried to talk to my parents about it. They didn't want to hear anything. That's not true. How dare you say something like that? What's your problem? Move on. They were full of denial at the time, and I stopped talking to them for seven years.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Seven years. No contact with my parents. And I didn't expect it to be seven years. Honestly, it turned into seven years partly because I wasn't strong enough to stand up to them, and they weren't open to listening to anything I had to say. So it was kind of a. I wasn't expecting that, you know? And then when I did come out, was in a kind of an abusive relationship with a guy. First, I could tell you by. It's like, welcome to my world, right? You're like, you don't grow up in a traumatic family without recreating your trauma.

[B]

To some degree because subconsciously you're seeking it 100%.

[A]

You're seeking it to heal it. We're looking for a better version, right? My first. My wife. I told you the woman on there married. Oh my God. She was passive like my mother, and I was controlling like father. I'm like, well, this sucks. I'm repeating the pattern of my parents.

[B]

Because they say you're attracted to people like your mother.

[A]

You're attract well, and you're attracted to what you know and you're trying to heal your pain, but you seek people who have similar wounds. Unconsciously, attraction is actually seeking somebody who has similar pain as us.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Which is crazy.

[B]

Yeah, that's crazy.

[A]

I didn't make it that way. But that is the way it is because we're trying to heal. We're trying to heal. So I did the female version. I married my mother. I became my father. I'm like, that didn't work, right. And so then when I came out, the first relationship, surprise, surprise. I'm with this guy, totally abusive and controlling. And I was passive like my mother. I'm like, shit, like nothing's work. Neither side is working for me. Right. This is not working. Right. And then after I did enough healing, after I stopped repeating, right. I met this man who I'm married to now, 25 years.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

And he was kind and gentle and different than anything I had ever known, you know? But it does take working through your stuff. Otherwise we're just kind of. We tend to repeat it.

[B]

Right. That's powerful the way you worded that. Because some people are healing while they're in relationships, but you healed before.

[A]

Yeah, some people you're lucky if you pick somebody who you can have a healing relationship with. Because relationships, of course, can be super healing, but oftentimes if you have trauma that you haven't worked on, you end up repeating it in some way. So, yeah. My memory relationship with my husband now, super healing.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

Best relationship I've been in for sure.

[B]

Yeah. Because divorce rates are at all time highs.

[A]

That's why they're at all time highs is because we pick people who are similar to. Our history is trying to work on our shit.

[B]

Right. And everyone's got some trauma.

[A]

Oh, I'm so glad you say that because that's my belief. You know, there's this Whole, like there's a certain segment of the population that's like, not me. I'm tough and strong. I don't have trauma. That's for people in, you know, vets or something like that. Right. And then there's this younger population who's like, oh, my goodness, I sneezed. It's traumatic. I can't do it. Do you know what I mean? There's this, like, this Gen Z population is so, like, sensitive, and they are traumatized in some ways. So there's a middle ground. I think everybody personally has overwhelming life experience. I don't know any person who hasn't had some difficulty in some way.

[B]

It's impossible, isn't it? Yeah. Life is designed to be up and down, isn't it?

[A]

And I think. Here's what I say about it. It's like we have our every moment. You can repress it, you can repeat it, or you can repair it. And I kind of think, like, we haven't. We have a choice. And, you know, I was in repeat mode, right? I was until I stopped repeating it and started repenting.

[B]

So many people are attracted to these toxic relationships and they don't know why. They just keep going to the next guy or the next girl.

[A]

They don't know what's related to their upbringing.

[B]

Yeah. But these days there's tests that can show you trauma is within you. I got a brain scan. Donna. It's Dr. Amen.

[A]

Did you work with. I know Dr. Am. He's a great guy.

[B]

So I didn't even know of trauma. And I found it and I was like, connecting the dots. And I think mine is abandonment.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I'm working on that right now.

[A]

That's correct.

[B]

But I urge people that think they don't have any traumas to at least get a test done and see.

[A]

100%. 100%. That's great. And the abandonment stuff, like, that's often really early. And so you don't even have conscious awareness. It could happen at a really young age. So you're like, what are you talking about? So it's good to have that awareness. It's great that you're doing that work. Build. You may. You may be better off and not wait till 60. Like I am.

[B]

Right. I try to be proud.

[A]

Really? Yeah.

[B]

Everything these days, health. I think people wait too long to address certain issues. Man.

[A]

I agree. I totally agree.

[B]

Yeah. Because if you're. The longer you wait, honestly, the worse.

[A]

100%. You keep repeating it. And this is another piece I'll say is transgenerational trauma. Because if you don't do your work and you get in a toxic relationship and you have kids, you. You pass it down.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You pass it down.

[B]

Yeah. There's this follow video on Instagram right Now of this 12 year old basketball player stepping on another player's head. And the top comments are all like, oh, I wonder how he's parented.

[A]

100%.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

100%.

[B]

Cuz it comes down.

[A]

You don't do that just randomly.

[B]

No. Yeah, anger's a big. I feel like anger is passed down 100 for design for parents.

[A]

You think about anger, it's. If it's done appropriately, it's a healthy boundary. Like no, this is not good for me. No, I don't want to do that. But most anger is about attacking and hurting. And so that's the cycle that gets perpetuated.

[B]

Right. And I think the kid goes one of two ways. Either shut down completely, which happened to me. My mom was, you know, strict Asian household, education was important. And then my dad was opposite, ran away from every problem. So I kind of went down that road.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. We go hyper or hypo. Like from a neurophysiologic point of view, you could get anxious, overwhelmed, panic, freak out or shut down. Disconnected, dissociate. Yeah, like those are our two main kind of adaptations or responses to overwhelming experiences.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It was very hard for me to have difficult conversations. I would just shut down and I would suppress my emotions. Did you suppress your emotions growing up?

[A]

I totally suppressed my emotions for sure. I did not know what the hell I felt. I was so disc. I married a woman, like how disconnected can I be? You know what I mean? So I was very disconnected. But I was also a fighter. I had this thing in me. Like I have one brother and two sisters. We were always at the, the dinner table and I sat next to like my dad was at the head of the table. I sat next to him and I had this like, I have to take care of my siblings. So I would speak up, I would say, shit.

[B]

Were you the oldest?

[A]

I was the oldest, got it right. I felt that responsibility. So I didn't just only shut down, I also fought. Like I had a part of me that fought and a part of me that shut down. Right. And so I would get the cracks, you know, when I would say something that was against him in any kind of word. So I did, I did both.

[B]

Yeah. There's challenges with each child, right. The oldest, the youngest and the middle sometimes gets neglected. It's Interesting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And parents say they don't have favorites, but they do.

[A]

You can kids feel it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You feel it. You know, I have two kids right now, and I. It's interesting. I don't feel like I have a favorite, but, boy, it's so much easier to get along with one than the other because we're more similar. Do you know what I mean? And we have more in common, and so it's harder for me, but I love him differently. But I bet my younger will say, well, you like Logan better than you like me. Do you know what I mean? Because it's just an easier relationship for me.

[B]

I feel that that's how my dad was with my other two brothers.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. He. He got along with them, could understand them more.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

I was kind of like that wild card.

[A]

Like, you didn't fit in in a way that was easy for him.

[B]

No, because those brothers were from a different mother, so they were close. And then I was an only child, and. Yeah. Lonely life growing on that. That's right. Yeah. It was tough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And each. Even if you are born into money, this is what I'm finding out with studies.

[A]

There's still trauma, sometimes more or in a different way. Because, you know, I've worked with. I work with many people who have the means, and there's a way that the money will fix things, and you don't have to be there emotionally. You can provide. Yeah, right. So there's a way that offering things and stuff is this, like, supplement for actual love and connection.

[B]

Right. They could buy. They think they could buy their way out of.

[A]

I. Yeah. And Bo. I live in Boston as well as living here in la, and we live in kind of a wealthy suburb. Just parents are like, here's my credit card. Take care of my kid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's kind of. It's pathetic. And, you know, talk about why kids. Why kids are in such a crisis. It really is the deal. Not for every parent. I don't want to say that. But it does happen, you know, and money. Money is like this commodity, and it's exchanged for love.

[B]

Right. Yeah. That nurturing component's super important as a parent. Yeah. You're probably so aware of all this as a parent, so.

[A]

Well, I am. You know, I do it for a living. I'm aware of it as a parent. And I will tell you, I also made mistakes, for sure.

[B]

Really.

[A]

I just did a podcast episode with my oldest son on transgenerational trauma. It was amazing. And he's telling me of the ways That I failed. And I was like, whoa. Which was so good.

[B]

He was honest with you.

[A]

That. Honest with me. We've. We've worked through a lot of stuff together. Yeah. There was this striving for me to be successful, to get my father's love that caused my son to feel neglected. Get that.

[B]

Oh, yeah, you were working so hard.

[A]

I was working so hard for his love. To some degree, I was neglecting my own kid because I was traveling all over the world, talking and speaking to get the. To get my dad's love.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

The other thing was that my youngest son is special needs. He's on the autism spectrum. And so we were so focused on the younger one. My oldest felt neglected. And when he said it to me, like, he was so mad. He was like, so mad. And like, you did this and you did this and you're controlling and you didn't provide structure. I was like, you're absolutely right. It totally disarmed her. Was that what I'm like, you're right. If that's the way you feel, you're right. And I am sorry. He was not expecting that. Right, Right. He was. I got defensiveness. I was like, you're right. I'm going to tell you, your experience is wrong. Like, I know better. Right. So we really had a good. We had a great conversation. We've worked through a lot of stuff and no parent's perfect like why we're not supposed to be. It's more problematic when you can't admit what you do wrong, even if you're well intended.

[B]

Right.

[A]

My parents, about the conversion therapy, will say, we did what we thought was best for you. We wanted you to have a normal life. We didn't know what was going on. And I believe that, like, even though it was such a. Excuse me, like a fucked up thing. They had good intentions. They didn't know.

[B]

Right. They wanted the best for you.

[A]

In their eyes, they're like, oh, Frankie's playing with the Barbie doll. He. That's a problem. We have to fix it so he'll have a normal life. That was their mentality. I mean, little did they know, it sent me down this trajectory of totally disconnecting from myself and be somebody.

[B]

I wasn't shocked it was around back then because it's making a lot of headlines these days.

[A]

It's illegal in a lot of states now.

[B]

Oh, it is?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. Not everywhere, but in a lot of places. And nowadays they'll send you away for a camp. Right. Back then, it was like every week I went yeah. Tuesday night, 7:00 for such.

[B]

Yeah. So I saw Elon's interview with Jordan Peterson and he was talking about this. Oh, I didn't crash that.

[A]

No, I didn't.

[B]

So one of Elon's kids did convert in therapy and he. He said that kid is dead to him. Yeah. Because he believes he was brainwashed. I don't know which gender changed to what, but that kid, he feels like is no longer his kid because of the.

[A]

So he totally disconnected from his kid.

[B]

Yeah. His kid made a statement as well, of saying he's you are someone's valid.

[A]

Wow. Really?

[B]

Yeah. He feels like his issue with it is he feels like it was programmed into that kid and it wasn't the kid's decision. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah, see, that's not true. I'm sorry. Say that my view. Right? Like, why the hell would you choose it? Who's going to choose that? Like, did. Did any. Did you choose straight one day? Like, I think I'll be straight. Nobody chooses in my experience. I tried to choose straight. I really tried to choose straight.

[B]

You were forcing it.

[A]

I was forcing it. And I. Sex with women, I could do that. But no, I work so hard to try a chest straight. I work so hard.

[B]

So you're born with it.

[A]

You're born with it. Yeah, I really believe that. It's kind of who I am. I can't help it. Nobody creates desire. Desire is. You can't manufacture desire. It just is in you. You can't. What you like. You like?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You don't choose it. Yeah, It's a feeling. It's a response. And like, really? I wouldn't choose gay. Like, it's. It's a harder life in a lot of ways. I love who I am. Don't get me wrong. But why would anybody choose it? So, like, it doesn't even make sense.

[B]

So was this gender change movement a thing when you were a kid? Like, were people wanting to do that?

[A]

So we're. So there's orientation, sexual orientation and gender. We're talking about two different things.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. So sexual orientation is like, who do I desire?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Gender is who do I identify as? So when I was a kid, there wasn't a lot of transgender stuff going on at all. Probably. It was there, and it was so underground. Gay was an issue. Right now it's interesting. It's much more prevalent. Maybe it's much more recognized. I don't really know. I can't really say. Because now gay is more. More in the mainstream and now Maybe there's room for not being thrown in a box. You know, it's interesting. Here's the way I think about it. Like, there's all the pronoun stuff. Everybody's like, into brush. What's your pronoun? You know, I don't know that anybody feels 100% masculine every single second of the day or 100% female every single second of the day. Like, the men can be soft and receptive and want to be nurtured. Women could be strong and powerful. These male or female identified traits. You know what I mean?

[B]

No, I agree with that. I think we all have masculine feminine energies.

[A]

Right. And so are the people that really change their genders born on a contin. On an extreme end of that. That's the way I think about it. Do you know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah, I never thought of it that way.

[A]

Right. Because, like. And even, like, excuse me for going here, but sexually, whether you're straight or gay, sometimes you feel you want to be kind of dominant, and sometimes you feel you want to be receptive.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we all have all of that in us. Maybe these people have a more extreme version.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

That's what I sit with anybody I've worked with that is transgender. They hate themselves. They hate their bodies. There's a lot of self mutilation. They do everything they can to not be who they are, and then they eventually, it's like this. I can't help but this is who I am.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So I know it's very. It's a political issue. It's so controversial. I'm totally aware of it. It's like, can't we just be who we are? Like, end of story.

[B]

Yeah, it is a very controversial one.

[A]

It was super controversial.

[B]

I think the issue is just at a young age, you know what I mean? They're putting this thought into their head in, like, first grade.

[A]

Well, here's the thing. Parents aren't putting this thought in the kid's head. Don't kid yourself. Like, aren't you Susie instead of Johnny? Like, no parent is saying that. Right. But I agree with you. Kids try on different Personas as normal development, and if you jump too quickly on that, it could be problematic.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that I agree with. You know, and when I've worked with transgender youth, there's a team of people, not one person, a psychiatrist, saying, okay, go on. Hormones. You have a team of people, you evaluate them for many years, and some of these hormones have permanent effects. If you start taking hormones, so it's not a decision that should be made lightly. So I agree with that, because some people, like, oh, have you ever heard queer till graduation? Queer till graduation. So there's this phrase now that some of these people in college are like, I'm gonna be queer till graduation. Like, I'll have sex with men and women just to try it out, and then I'll decide later, you know, so we try on a lot of things when we're younger, you know, and gender might be one of them. You know, I'm a tomboy. Does that mean you're really a boy? Does that mean you're a girl that likes to be rough and, you know, rugged? Let kids really tease it out over time. And I don't think we should jump too quickly, but I don't think we should say it doesn't exist either.

[B]

Tomboys are cool. When I was growing up.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

I remember those days in elementary school. You get a lot of religious trauma because that's something you're trying to educate on the show, actually.

[A]

Yeah. So it's one of the things I've done a lot of work with. Individual trauma, people growing up in dysfunctional families. There's also institutional trauma. And institutional trauma is a whole other thing. Like, we've all experienced global trauma from the pandemic. Everybody's been traumatized in that. But, yeah, there's more and more awareness of institutional trauma, whether it's in corporations, you know, people being treated differently, women being paid differently, and all this kind of stuff. You can have traumas in institutions. And religious trauma is a whole other layer of complexity. At the trauma center where I work with Bessel Banderkolk in Boston, we worked with priest abuse many, many years. Okay.

[B]

So that's actually going on.

[A]

It's hugely. Sure, rumors of it, but in the Catholic Church, particularly, but not only. And so there's an abuse of power, which is what trauma is anyways, sexual trauma. But when you add the dimension of spirituality or God and. Or whatever it is, it adds a layer of shame. It adds a layer of, I am so bad and wrong. And the abuse of power is different than, I'm an adult. I am a member of God. Right. So it adds a layer of complexity for people when they've been abused by somebody. Because it's more than abuse of power. It's like using spirituality, using religion in a manipulative way, which really messed people.

[B]

That probably confused people.

[A]

I'll tell you a little bit about my husband in that way. So he grew up in a very Conservative, strict kind of Pentecostal church environment with his family. And when he came out at 18, much younger than me, totally. His parents got rid of him. Well, kicked him out of the house, this whole thing. He had a suicide attempt at a very young age. And to this day, day, he will never step in the church because he had all of this, you know, the devil will. You have the devil in you. He got a lot of trauma from what people in the religious organizations were imposing upon him. And so he, like, he. He didn't want us to raise our kids with religion because of the religious trauma that they experienced. So to be shunned and seen. Seen that way by God. It's different than by your parent or by a teacher.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah. It's like they're weaponizing it 100%. Yeah. I've done some Mormon church survivors, and that one's tough because your whole family has to cut you off after you leave.

[A]

Wow. Yeah. It's so interesting that you say that. I just was at this retreat in Hawaii with a bunch of people who were Latter Day Saints.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And I was like, oh, shit, I gonna be accepted in this group. And they're working really hard in that church to try to do things differently. He's really surprised. They were open and receptive to me. They even had at Brigham and Young University, one of the keynote speakers was gay kid.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, that's surprising.

[A]

Doors change. They're trying because you're right. You lose your parents, your family, your aunts, your uncles, your church, your community, your town. It's a huge loss.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think, at least from what I can tell, they're trying to make changes, which I'm super happy about.

[B]

That's good, because their numbers are dwindling, man. People are leaving religion. You got by the masses. Yes. Yeah. I think just the first time where the numbers are actually dropping.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

That's cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What other major traumas are you seeing? I'm sure there's a lot of common ones. Common themes, you see.

[A]

What other traumas am I seeing? I mean, we talked a little bit about what's happening for teenagers, which is really kind of awful. There's a lot of trauma. Let's see. Let's think about. The inequity for women and men is really still an issue in a way that doesn't make sense. Yeah. Women do not get paid the same. Women don't have the same rights. Women in power are seen as nasty and mean, not powerful and strong like we that shouldn't be existing in our world today, like here. Now that I'm living in la, the inequity in Hollywood around what female actors get paid versus male actors get paid is kind of ridiculous really. I've worked with several people who were abused by the Harvey Weinstein deal.

[B]

That was a big one, right?

[A]

Men still abusing power. So as much as we would hope, that doesn't exist. It still exists. The other trauma, I would say is people of cultural minorities. Like I see that all over the place. I think black lives matter. Brown skinned people, people who grow up who aren't the white straight majority is very prevalent in a way that bothers me. And I think about certain traumas as individual, potentially or not individual or not invisible. Invisible. Like I can maybe pass as a straight white guy walking down the street, right? Depends. Some people they know, some people say yes. But if you're a person of color, every time you walk outside, you can't pass. You are seen as who you are, as different. You understand? And so the world is dangerous for you. Always. When we talk about healing trauma, you want to get people in a safe setting in order to do their trauma work. But when you walk out in your door and your scene is different.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It doesn't. There's not a level of safety that you can actually experience in order to do the deeper work.

[B]

Right. Because they're always on edge.

[A]

Always on edge. You can't kind of hide your skin color when you're out into the world.

[B]

Right? No, that's a good point. Because certain communities are super against speaking up about, you know, their traumas and stuff. 100%, because they're just always shielded.

[A]

That's.

[B]

They don't want to open up.

[A]

That's exactly right.

[B]

Wow. So we need to break down the barrier somehow.

[A]

I really feel that. I feel strong. You know, I'll also. I'm going to talk about this because it's something that I'm feeling strong really strongly right now, especially in this political craziness that we're in. And I don't even care what side anybody's on. That's not the issue for me. The issue is both sides are actually trying to help. Both sides want to make the world better, but each side focuses on what's bad about the other. Yeah, that's true, 100%. It's so polarized that we don't acknowledge our own shadows and we push our shadows onto the other side. And I feel like we all have more in common than we are different. But we focus on othering so we don't have to deal with what's bad about us.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

This is what I hold. And I know it's not a popular view, but it's a view that I want to get out into the world. I'll tell you a story. A neighbor of mine growing up as a kid, clearly a gay guy. My parents are super conservative. He was super conservative. My dad was sick and dying a couple years ago. He comes over to the house and he's like, I was at the insurrection. He was, like, all proud of himself, and he's like, in camo and telling me about Trump and all this kind of stuff, you know? And I was like, okay, like, we're different, right? And then it was when my second book came out called Transcending Trauma. He starts asking me about my book. What's this book about? It's about my trauma history. It's about growing up in an abusive environment. He knows my dad. He starts telling me about his traumas. He's like, you know what, friend? I grew up with an abusive father too. He used to beat me, too, with six brothers. And he would beat me on a regular basis. He's like, hey, we have more in common than we don't. He's like, and you're trying to help people overcome. You're a better person than me. He's like, can I have a hug?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Right? Was a huge moment for me. It's like, here's this guy who supposedly is totally different than me, and in fact, we have trauma histories in common, and we join in our wounded. He takes one approach to dealing with his trauma. I take a different approach.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. When you boil it down, you see?

[A]

Do you see what I'm saying? And I really think we focus on what's different instead of what is similar. And like you said earlier, we all have trauma. Can't we focus on that, which is what we have in common, instead of how different we are? Because here's another thing I'll tell you, Sean, which people don't know, and I don't think people own enough of. When you've been traumatized, you internalize perpetrator energy. Everybody who is traumatized also absorbs perpetrator energy. So when you're harmed, you have a harmer in you.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And people don't acknowledge that, but it happens all the time, every time. So, you know, when you're gonna other somebody and say they're this, this, and this, you're not really taking responsibility for the ways you've been mutated mean or violent or hurtful to others in a way of protecting yourself from your own pain. And I think if we all, all of us. It's one of the things I wrote about. I started yelling at my kids at one point.

[B]

Really?

[A]

100%. All the therapy I've been through. Right. I should know better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I started yelling at my kids. I got back. Got my ass back in therapy. I'm like, here. I knew I had that perpetrator energy in me. And I was like, I am not going to pass this down. I got myself back into therapy for like a third time. So I think if we can all acknowledge that we've all harmed and we've all been harmed, maybe we join instead.

[B]

Of othering love that accountability is so important.

[A]

This is my message. I really feel like that's the way we're going to heal. The more we're gonna demonize somebody, the. The more separate we're gonna be.

[B]

Yeah. At a certain point, it goes nowhere.

[A]

It goes nowhere.

[B]

Like, let's have these debates, but let's also not get personal with it.

[A]

100.

[B]

Yeah. Let's be objective. Yeah. I don't. I don't like the crick.

[A]

It's so obnoxious. And again, I don't care what's. I don't even care what side you're on. I think both sides in some way are obnoxious because they're so extreme.

[B]

Well, they have to be to get views these days.

[A]

Right?

[B]

The God is saying the craziest thing.

[A]

Isn't it ridiculous? Yeah. So, you know, and here's the other thing. It's good to be 60 because you don't care what people say so much anymore. So I'm like, I could say this and if you don't agree with me, that's fine. You don't have to agree. But I have. I want to make the world a better place. I want to heal trauma in the world. And I think if we acknowledge the ways we've harmed and the way we've been harmed and we heal it, we're all going to Rebar.

[B]

Well said, Dr. Fang. Where can people find you in your books?

[A]

Yeah, frankandersonmd.com is where people can find me on Instagram as frankandersonmd. I'm on all the other handles too. X. I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook, so I don't know what those thirds well for.

[B]

Find it. Link it below. Thanks so much for coming on. That was awesome. Yeah, thanks for watching, guys. See you next time.