The $1B Mistake in Your Pantry: Seed Oil Truth Exposed | Steven Rofrano DSH #1028

Summary

Digital Social Hour Podcast Summary
Episode: The $1B Mistake in Your Pantry: Seed Oil Truth Exposed | Steven Rofrano DSH #1028
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Stephen Refrano, Co-Founder of Masa
Release Date: December 28, 2024

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly engages in an enlightening conversation with Stephen Refrano, the co-founder of Masa, a company dedicated to producing healthier snack alternatives free from harmful seed oils. The discussion delves deep into the pervasive use of seed oils in the food industry, the misleading practices surrounding ingredient labeling, and the broader implications for public health.

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Seed Oils in the Food Industry

Stephen Refrano opens the conversation by highlighting the hidden presence of seed oils in popular food products. He shares an eye-opening anecdote about Tyson’s chicken fingers:

Stephen Refrano [01:00]: "Tyson was selling these frozen chicken fingers or whatever, and there was no oil on the label. Some of these seed oil people called them and said, are you sure there's no seed oils on here? The customer service said, actually, we fry them in soybean oil for 10 seconds."

This revelation underscores a critical loophole where manufacturers can exclude certain ingredients from labels if used minimally, misleading consumers about what they're truly consuming.

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The Health Implications of Seed Oils

Refrano passionately discusses why seed oils are detrimental to human health, regardless of whether they're organic:

Stephen Refrano [03:05]: "The main reason seed oils are bad is not necessarily because of the pesticides. The oil itself is pretty highly toxic and incompatible with human biology for a whole host of reasons."

He criticizes mainstream health assessments, particularly referencing the Yuka app, which rates seed oils inaccurately due to prevailing misconceptions about saturated fats:

Stephen Refrano [03:26]: "The Yuka app thinks that saturated fat is bad for you... based on the mainstream opinion of the American Heart Association and all the sort of fake science that's been paid for by the vegetable oil industry since the 1950s."

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Historical Context and Industrial Practices

Refrano provides a historical perspective on the prevalence of seed oils, using flaxseed as a case study:

Stephen Refrano [07:31]: "Flax seeds were never widely consumed by people prior to being marketed as a health food in the 90s. They were primarily used for making linen fabric and oil-based paints."

He draws parallels between the seed oil industry and other industrial practices, such as the fluoridation of water, highlighting how industrial byproducts are repurposed misleadingly as health solutions.

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Plastic Contamination in Food Packaging

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the hidden dangers of plastic in food packaging and preparation:

Stephen Refrano [10:28]: "Plastic leeches more into foods that are similar in chemical structure. Fatty foods dissolve plastics more quickly, leading to contamination."

He emphasizes the importance of using non-plastic materials in food preparation, sharing Masa’s commitment to ethical practices:

Stephen Refrano [14:16]: "We had to get custom-made flexible stainless steel hoses... to prevent plastic contamination in our tallow."

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Transparency and Accountability in Restaurants

The conversation shifts to the restaurant industry's lack of transparency regarding ingredient use. Refrano advocates for comprehensive ingredient labeling in eateries to empower consumers to make informed choices:

Stephen Refrano [18:17]: "Ingredient labels are pretty good in the US, but extending this transparency to restaurants would help a lot of people make better choices."

He shares his experiences with restaurants misleading customers about oil usage, emphasizing the need for industry-wide reforms.

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Advocacy and Future Plans

Refrano highlights Masa’s collaborations and advocacy efforts aimed at promoting healthier food standards. He mentions their partnership with the Seed Oil Scout app and support for farms resisting detrimental regulations:

Stephen Refrano [16:42]: "We donated to their legal funds... a lot of that’s going to be reformed in the upcoming years."

Looking ahead, Refrano outlines Masa’s expansion plans:

Stephen Refrano [21:09]: "By the end of 2026, we should be all over Whole Foods and a bunch of other grocers."

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Notable Quotes

• Stephen Refrano [01:13]: "A lot of health foods have weird ingredients no one's ever heard of. They just sound healthy."

• Stephen Refrano [03:24]: "The Yuka app thinks that saturated fat is bad for you... it's based on very corrupt science."

• Stephen Refrano [10:49]: "If you have food in a plastic Tupperware, not ideal. Put that plastic in a microwave, and heat increases leaching."

• Stephen Refrano [17:05]: "Everyone has the luxury of being able to go to stores like Erewhon, but many can’t afford that."

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Conclusion

In this episode, Sean Kelly and Stephen Refrano shed light on the often-overlooked issues surrounding seed oils and plastic contamination in the food industry. Refrano’s insights reveal the intricate ways in which harmful practices are embedded in everyday food products and the urgent need for greater transparency and ethical standards. Masa stands as a testament to what conscientious entrepreneurship can achieve, providing healthier alternatives and advocating for systemic change. Listeners are left with a deeper understanding of the hidden risks in their pantries and the importance of making informed dietary choices.

For those interested in Masa products, Stephen shared that 80% of their customers find them through the website mosschips.com, with plans to expand into major retailers like Whole Foods by 2026.

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Connect with Masa:

• Website: mosschips.com
• Amazon: Available for purchase
• Retail Stores: Increasing presence, especially in Southern California

Support the Show:
Stay informed and inspired by subscribing to the Digital Social Hour Podcast for more in-depth conversations with industry leaders and innovators.

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions and providing actionable insights for listeners seeking healthier food alternatives and a deeper understanding of the modern food industry's challenges.

Transcript

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[Stephen Refrano]

What? So Tyson was selling these frozen chicken fingers or whatever, and there was no oil on the label. And so some of these seed oil people called them and said, are you sure there's no seed oils on here? And the customer service said, actually, no, we fry them in soybean oil for 10 seconds.

[Host]

Wow.

[Stephen Refrano]

But because it's less than 10 seconds or whatever, it doesn't have to go on the label. And so these people are like, eating soy fried chicken fingers. They don't even realize it.

[Host]

All right, guys, Stephen Refrano, co founder of Masa. And it's a great product, dude. Thanks for coming on.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, thanks for having me.

[Host]

One of the healthier products I've seen.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, no, it's. There's a lot of stuff out there, but I think we managed to get the best combination of, like, actually real food in the bag.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

A lot of health foods are like, they have weird ingredients no one's ever heard of. They just sound healthy.

[Guest 1]

Right.

[Stephen Refrano]

But this is like how your grandma might have made it 200 years ago or something.

[Host]

No seed oils, right?

[Stephen Refrano]

No seed oils.

[Host]

And you use beef tallow. Is it grass fed? Which costs a lot. So people gotta realize.

[Guest 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

It's not a cheap thing to make.

[Stephen Refrano]

Like, I think five times the price of seed oils.

[Host]

Wow.

[Stephen Refrano]

Like per pound or whatever.

[Host]

Nuts.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I'm not trying to call out any brands, but when you go to the grocery stores and you buy tortilla chips, a lot of them use pretty poor ingredients.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, pretty much all of them. And the crazy thing is, if you look at the labels, it'll say Canola and. Or sunflower and. Or safflower. It's like they don't even distinguish. Like, they don't even know it's in their own loud.

[Host]

And. Or.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, and. Or. What if I said honey and. Or sugar and. Or maple syrup and. Or stevia.

[Host]

You know, it's crazy what they could get away with. With labels.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Host]

And they'll rename certain ingredients.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

Well, I heard. Okay. I heard this really interesting thing on Twitter the other day. Basically, if you fry something in oil for less than 10 seconds, you don't have to put it on the label. What? So Tyson was selling these frozen chicken fingers or whatever, and there was no oil on the label. And so some of these seed oil people called them and said, are you sure there's no seed oils on here? And the customer service said, actually, no, we fry them in soybean oil for 10 seconds.

[Host]

Wow.

[Stephen Refrano]

But because it's less than 10 seconds or whatever, it doesn't have to go on the label. And so these people are, like, eating soy fried chicken fingers and they don't even realize it.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Host]

So what about organic seed oils? Is there a difference?

[Stephen Refrano]

Technically, the only difference is that the root crop was grown organically.

[Host]

Okay.

[Stephen Refrano]

But the main reason seed oils are bad is not necessarily because the pesticides that they're. Like the actual plant is grown with. The oil itself is pretty highly toxic. It's just incompatible with human biology for a whole host of reasons that we can get into if you want. Yeah. But whether they're organic or not, it doesn't change the core thing that makes you all as bad.

[Host]

Have you used the Yuka app on this?

[Stephen Refrano]

The Yuka app. So the Yuka app thinks that saturated fat is bad for you.

[Host]

Saturn fat.

[Stephen Refrano]

Saturated fat.

[Host]

Saturated.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah. So the UK app basically thinks seed oils are good for you. Yeah, it's. It's based on. I can't fault them in particular, but it's based on, like, the mainstream opinion of the American Heart association and all the sort of fake science that's been paid for by the vegetable oil industry since the 1950s, which is that, of course, cholesterol is bad. Unsaturated fat, which is. Seed oils, is good for you. Saturated fat and cholesterol are bad, and that's been the mainstream opinion of doctors for the past 70 years, but it's all based on very corrupt science. Yeah, there's some good books that go into this. I don't know if you even have her on your show. Nina Teicholtz wrote the Big Fat Surprise. Which details the history of how the corruption food industry paid for studies to basically say seed oils are good.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

It's kind of crazy.

[Host]

How can they frame the study in that way? Like, what exactly was the study?

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, so this is. So there's a. Interesting. I forget what they call this. It's basically like a. A proxy. Right. So if doctors establish, hey, this thing is good, then they can say something else causes this thing, and then that something else is considered good. Right. I'll give you an example. So if they established cholesterol as bad and that we should lower cholesterol, they don't have to say that doing this thing makes you healthier or causes less death or makes you live longer. All they have to do is say this thing causes lower cholesterol. And because we know that lower cholesterol is good, this thing is also good. And that's kind of what they did with the seed oil studies. So based on some other kind of crazy science, they established cholesterol's bad and it should be minimized. Yeah, they figured out, hey, if we feed people vegetable oils, their cholesterol levels, which are seed oils, are. By the way, if we feed people seed oils, their cholesterol levels decrease and therefore seed oils are good. The thing is, though, the people in the group that they fed the seed oils to died more and more quickly.

[Host]

Crazy.

[Stephen Refrano]

Which is insane. But they, of course, failed to publish that part of the result. But they published that it lowered cholesterol, and because everyone knows that cholesterol is bad, it was considered good. I think that's the Minnesota prisoners experiment or something.

[Host]

Yeah, the cholesterol study got a lot of people, especially with the egg yolks.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it's like super crazy. It's crazy what they do. Like every headline from some magazine like Time or whatever is, egg yolks are bad. Egg yolks are good. And egg yolks are bad again. And it's so confusing to people.

[Host]

Super confusing. And every time there's a new superfood. It's usually not a superfood.

[Stephen Refrano]

No, it's usually some industrial waste products.

[Host]

Yeah, I remember acai was a big one for a bit.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

The flax, right?

[Host]

Yeah, Flax.

[Stephen Refrano]

Flax is. So people really know this, but the flax seeds come from the plant that. The same plant that makes linen fabric.

[Host]

Wow.

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[Stephen Refrano]

Linen shirts, you know, whatever. So the fibers are spun to make fabric and the seeds, they have a lot of unsaturated fats, oils in them. For a long time in Europe, like flax was grown for its fabric exclusively. Yeah, the seeds were maybe given animals or whatever. They also use the oils and the seeds to make oil based painting. So like the paint that da Vinci used to paint the Michelangelo or not the Michelangelo. The what is the Mona. The Mona Lisa. Michelangelo, the Mona Lisa. He used flaxseed oil to paint the way. Yeah, because that's what it was used for. But over time, acrylic paints and other sort of synthetics replace the natural uses for flaxseed oil. And so then Europe was left with this abundance of flaxseeds they didn't know what to do with. And then Starting in the 90s they began marketing as health food. Yeah, but flax seeds were never widely consumed by people prior to that.

[Host]

That's so crazy.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, so it's like same thing with fluoride in the water, right? I believe the sodium hexafluoride or Whatever. That's a byproduct of the aluminum refining industry. And so some dentists figured out fluoride is good. The thing they. The form of fluoride, they studied to say that wasn't even the same fluoride that they put in the water. That form of fluoride was the thing that comes from the aluminum industry. And so now we have this industrial product getting put into the water, telling everyone it's healthy.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

And that happens way, shockingly, way more often than you think.

[Host]

And the skin is the largest organ. People are bathing in fluoride water every day. Water.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

No, it's horrible. I have a shower filter.

[Host]

Same. You have to these days.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah. It smells disgusting. I remember when. So I grew up on a house, that well water. And the water was great. We don't have to worry about this. When I went to college, the water smelled like a indoor pool.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

And I would get in the shower and like, it's. I'm going swimming right now. It's horrible.

[Host]

Well water. I want to talk about that. Because there's a thing when the water still where bacteria can grow. Right.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

Well, so the idea with well water is that the water trickles through the. The dirt, the sand, the bedrock, and then it filters all the way into these giant aquifers where there's no light and whatever. And so it's very clean. Yeah. At least in the US the way we have relatively little pollution in our wells. Obviously some exceptions for places where there's fracking. There's very minimal bacterial contamination in well water.

[Guest 2]

Right.

[Stephen Refrano]

This isn't an open well like in the Middle Ages where you dropped a bucket in, you know, and like, some animal could fall and die and pollute the well. This isn't that. It's, like, pumped up from underground and it's relatively clean. The only thing is that depending on where you are, there could be some metal contaminants in the water.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

So where I grew up, I learned this much later. The well water is somewhat high in arsenic, which. Okay, it's not ideal, but it's not the end of the world. But it's certainly way better than top water.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Host]

Heavy metals is really bad for the body because you can't detox your body if you have too many heavy metals.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah. It's hard.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

And, like, you can sauna. Right. Like, but it only goes so fast.

[Guest 1]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host]

I'm a big fan of saunas. Any. Any plastics in this product? In the bag?

[Stephen Refrano]

Well, the bag is made of plastic.

[Host]

Okay. But that's not leaching, is it?

[Stephen Refrano]

Well, okay. Yeah. So the thing about plastics, and people should learn about plastic contamination. Plastics are everywhere. They're somewhat unavoidable in the modern day, but you have to understand what causes a higher rate of plastic leaching. And so one everyone learns in chemistry class, heat accelerates chemical reactions, right?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

So if you have food in a plastic Tupperware, not ideal. But if you put that plastic Tupperware in a microwave, that heat increases the rate at which the plastic leeches into the food.

[Host]

Got it.

[Stephen Refrano]

Another thing is that plastic leeches more into foods that are similar chemical structure. So, like, fatty foods have the same chemical nature as plastics. And so plastics will dissolve more quickly into fats.

[Host]

Wow.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

And the last. So like olive oil, plastic bottle. Like, come on. And then the worst thing is, or the next big thing is like, surface area. It all just like everyone learns chemistry class things that accelerate chemical reactions. The more surface area between the plastic and your thing, the faster it dissolves. So water bottles made of plastic. You know, the entire surface of the water in the Pl in the bottle is being. Is touching the plastic. So that's an ideal. So basically, you want to minimize things where plastic is involved with heat, fats, and liquids. So chips are neither of these things. We put the chips in the back when they're cool. They're not a liquid. They're fatty. Of course. But like, the plastic touching the chip is a very tiny little point. It's not ideal, I'll give you that. The only other alternative would be to use like tin coffee can type things.

[Host]

But that'd be way more expensive, which.

[Stephen Refrano]

Would be way more expensive, way more wasteful.

[Host]

I get it from a business point of view.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Host]

And even for water, because you only drink it once, it's kind of like that. This bottle, you know, probably costs like a dollar or whatever.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, glass bottles are expensive. I mean, and you can recy and whatever, but, like, there's. There's no industry of packaged foods coming in tin cans.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

And I mean, the other thing with cans, too, like a Campbell soup can, you think, or even a can like a soda or something, you think, oh, it's. It's metal. It's not plastic. No, cans are lined with plastic because they're. You know, these drink cans are made of aluminum, and if you put Coca Cola in aluminum, in a pure aluminum can, it will dissolve the aluminum.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

And so they line the cans with this little tiny little film. And you can look at people do this on YouTube all the time. They'll dissolve a soda can in like drain cleaner or something and they'll pick it up and the aluminum's gone. And it looks like this condom filled with Coca Cola. It's like this plastic liner. Yeah.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Host]

Disgusting.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah. So it's like you drink out of can, you're drinking plastic.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

Liquid death. Not to call them out in particular. Plastic free. Whatever. No, it's lined with plastic. Every can is lined with plastic.

[Host]

Plus their actual water is. They tested their water.

[Stephen Refrano]

It's not the best. Yeah.

[Host]

I like that you take quality like these are made in America. Yeah. You guys take the quality really serious.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, we make them by hand in Jersey.

[Host]

Oh, by hand.

[Stephen Refrano]

By hand.

[Host]

Wow.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yes, we have to. The, the equipment that we're going to use to increase production capacity is very expensive. We're working on it. The cool thing about it though is that I can put the same ingredients into like a more automated piece of equipment and the same product comes out. Yeah. Part of the issue with a lot of these high throughput machinery setups is they have parts that are made of plastic. Same thing with plastic. And it's, it's actually shocking. We bought a fryer that had. Has this hose so that you can like drain the oil tallow, filter it and then pump it back up to the top. The hose is made of plastic. What, and this is 200°, like fat.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

You know, in this really shitty plastic. And that's like how they sell it.

[Guest 2]

Wow.

[Stephen Refrano]

And there are. So there are people who bought that and then use it this way. And then the food that's a result of this is contaminated plastic.

[Host]

That's crazy. I never even thought about that.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, no, it's made. It's. It's nuts because. And they don't think about it either. The FDA says, oh, this material is food grade because some chemical company paid them to say it's food grade.

[Guest 1]

Right.

[Stephen Refrano]

It's not. But then because they say it, producers can get away with it. So we had to, we had to get custom made flexible stainless steel hoses to put onto that wow. Thing.

[Host]

And that's how much you care about your customers. Because they would have. Your customers would have never known.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, like they would know. They would not know. They. It wouldn't taste it. They wouldn't smell it. But like there would be dissolved plastic in my tallow.

[Host]

So that shows you guys are willing to put ethics ahead of profits though.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, well, we, I mean, we, we do what we need to do to make sure it's something That I would. And I. I would eat and I would feed to my family.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

Like, that's kind of the baseline. And. And I've, you know, we started moss about two and a half years ago, but I've been into health on a personal level for. Well, beyond that.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

Very, you know, extreme practices. Like, I. Everything needs to be clean and, you know, all that stuff. And the reason why I started this was because I couldn't find anything up to that standard out of the store.

[Guest 1]

Right.

[Stephen Refrano]

And, you know, I travel, I fly here, I go there. I need to eat food. And it was just so damn difficult to find anything that I could eat at a store. And this was just like a. Very convenient.

[Host]

Even here, man. I'm not trying to call out this convention center. I've been having to get lunch at the food court.

[Stephen Refrano]

We had. We had a picnic out on the street. We brought, like, sourdough organic bread. We got the farmer's market today's, you know, and, like, cheese and some organic turkey cold cuts.

[Host]

I knew every place here was using seed oil because I'm so sensitive now that I don't eat them, that when I do, I feel it immediately.

[Stephen Refrano]

Well, there's. So there's a few good restaurants in Phoenix and also Scottsdale. Do you have the app Seed Oil Scout?

[Host]

Yeah, I love that app.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

Okay, cool. Yeah, so I. We went to one last night. It was a good restaurant.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Host]

Se. It's a game changer. And now I saw they're adding products.

[Stephen Refrano]

So, yeah, we've been on there. I. I know Seal Scout very well. We've been on there from very early on. Yeah, we're super, super happy to be collaborating with them. And they're coming out with I don't know how much of a lot of teas, but they're.

[Guest 2]

They're.

[Stephen Refrano]

They're coming out with a way to help you find. Make sure that the stuff you buy in the grocery stores also.

[Host]

I saw they even had a raw milk thing.

[Stephen Refrano]

I mean, it's.

[Host]

Raw milk's been demonized in the mainstream media. There's people raiding farms.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like this. We actually donated to the Strong Sisters. I don't know if you know them.

[Host]

Was that the big one in PA that got raided?

[Stephen Refrano]

That was Miller's bio farm. Yeah, no, that was Amos Miller's. I don't know. Miller is a big Amish family out there that was also rated. The Strong Sisters, I think, are in Ohio. And there. There's two sisters there, super into working out and health and whatever they Started a farm. And then there's this video that came out. The, the Department of Agriculture makes them throw out like $80,000 worth.

[Host]

I saw that.

[Stephen Refrano]

Like grass fed, pasture raised, raw butter and cheese. It's like this is the highest, healthiest, highest quality, nutrient dense food that you can find anywhere on earth.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

And these assholes who themselves are like obese, walking in here, making them throw all this stuff into the dumpster.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

It was, it was travesty.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

We donated to their legal funds. We like, I, I suspect that in the, in the upcoming several years, a lot of that's going to be reformed and this type of thing won't become an issue anymore.

[Host]

Absolutely. I'm pumped for RFK to take some action, man.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah. No, there's. And there's so much stuff you can do. It's like there's. We don't need to have this system that makes everyone so sick.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Host]

I think a big change would be just holding these fast food chains accountable for certain ingredients they're using.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Host]

I think because so many people eat that, those spots on a daily basis, you know.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

And it's like they, you know, it's, it's the food they can get. Like, it's up to people who produce and sell food to make sure that what they're feeding people is not bad for them.

[Guest 1]

Right.

[Stephen Refrano]

You know, it's not. Everyone has the luxury of being able to go to Air One and buy whatever they want.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

You know, and in that case, people can't be subject to the poisonous desires of some large corporation or whatever.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

It's insane.

[Host]

Like, why do French fries have 58 ingredients?

[Stephen Refrano]

Sorry, what did you say?

[Host]

French fries have 58 ingredients.

[Stephen Refrano]

What?

[Host]

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. It's crazy.

[Stephen Refrano]

That's insane.

[Host]

Like burgers have like 25 ingredients.

[Stephen Refrano]

That's insane. It's like meat, bread and cheese.

[Host]

You read like the ingredient list of any fast food chain and it's like.

[Stephen Refrano]

Stuff you can't pronounce.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

I actually think that would be a good one because so ingredient labels are, are pretty good in the us. Like, I, I mean, I said the thing about the soybean oil with the chicken fingers. It's not, they're not perfect, but they're pretty solid. It'll be great if restaurants also had ingredient labels too.

[Host]

Yeah, that'd be great.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah. Cause at least like calories measure. I, I think a few cities have tried to do this where they mandate that Chipotle puts the calories per meal or whatever you can only do so much with that. Um, I. I think what's the guy. Casey Neistat famously actually tested the caloric content of certain foods.

[Host]

Oh, really?

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

And compared it against the number that they put on the menu. And they were all completely way off. Way off. It's. It's a famously inaccurate science, but agree labels, it's what's in the product, and it would help a lot of people make better choices.

[Host]

I would love that because.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah.

[Host]

Certain things at a restaurant, you see, like, what you want, but you don't know if there's seed oils in it.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, I have no idea. And sometimes waiters don't know. Sometimes chefs don't know. Right. And. And then, like, they get annoyed if.

[Host]

You ask to cook it in butter.

[Stephen Refrano]

Right.

[Host]

It's like a weird process off. Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

It's kind of awkward. And then even if they. They think they're doing it right, they may buy something from outside, and they didn't even know.

[Guest 1]

Right.

[Stephen Refrano]

The restaurant I went to yesterday is across the board, very good. You know, no seed oils, olive oil, animal fats, avocado oil. However, I had to double check. It wasn't on the menu. Their fryer had rice bran oil, which is seed oil. And it's like, that wasn't on the menu. They talked about how they don't use seed oils, and I'm like, well, what's in the fryer? And then I found it was rice bran oil. So, like, being upfront about that, I think would help a lot of people.

[Host]

I went to a five star steakhouse in Vegas the other night, and they use canola oil on the bread. Literally the bread. That's. That you start out with canola oil on the bread.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, I did oil. And bread. Is oil part of bread, so.

[Host]

Nuts. I don't know if you meant they. They bake it with canola. I don't know exactly what it was.

[Stephen Refrano]

I mean, Wonder Bread has soybean oil in it.

[Host]

So the price, baking it, I.

[Stephen Refrano]

So I was at a Fogo to chow. You know, it's like this Brazilian steakhouse chain.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

Much against my will, I used to go there the other day.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

It's like, it's a. It's a cool concept on paper, but the. The salad bar, I was like. Because I don't. I don't want to eat a lot of that stuff. I know it's sus. But I go and look at the white rice. I'm thinking, white rice. How can you screw that up?

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

And then I noticed it was Kind of shiny. I was like, huh? Shiny white rice. And I go and inquire about it, and the white rice was stirred with a canola olive oil blend.

[Host]

It's rice.

[Stephen Refrano]

Why is that necessary? Dude, it's white rice.

[Host]

Come on. I'm assuming all the meats are cooked in seed oils there.

[Stephen Refrano]

Well, actually, the meats are, I believe, at least when I saw they were on a rotisserie over, like, big ribs. So it looked like they were fine. Unless they sprayed them. God knows what they did.

[Host]

That wouldn't surprise me.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me. They spray the sticks, you know. The meat quality was pretty poor, though.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

In general, it was not a great experience.

[Host]

What's the future for Masa, man? Where could people buy this right now?

[Stephen Refrano]

Um, so 80% of our customers find us on our website, mosschips.com. we have another. About 10% of that's on Amazon.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

And then the rest are in a whole bunch of retail stores.

[Host]

Nice.

[Stephen Refrano]

So Erewhon, we did pretty well. We're the number one snack brand in Erewhon at the moment.

[Host]

Please come to Whole Foods or Sprouts.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

Oh, Whole Foods. Where we're trying.

[Host]

Okay.

[Stephen Refrano]

I have more to say about that over. Over this year, but, I mean, by the end of 2026, we should be all over Whole Foods and a bunch of other grocers.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Stephen Refrano]

But for the time being, our website is the main way. And then if you're lucky enough to happen to live in a city, especially Southern California, we have a lot of stores. But outside of that, it's. It's hit or miss.

[Host]

I love it, man. Thanks for coming on.

[Stephen Refrano]

Yeah, thanks for having me.

[Host]

Thanks for watching, guys. Check out the website. See you guys next time.