The Anhedonia Epidemic: Are You Secretly Suffering? | Dr. Judith Joseph DSH #1037

Summary

Digital Social Hour: The Anhedonia Epidemic – Are You Secretly Suffering? | Dr. Judith Joseph DSH #1037

Release Date: December 31, 2024

In this enlightening episode of Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly engages in a profound conversation with Dr. Judith Joseph, author of High Functioning. Dr. Joseph delves into the often-overlooked phenomenon of anhedonia and high-functioning depression, exploring their causes, impacts, and potential solutions in today's digitally saturated world.

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Understanding High-Functioning Depression and Anhedonia

Sean Kelly: "When you hear depression and you hear high functioning, they're like opposites."

Dr. Judith Joseph: "Yes. When people think of depression, they think of someone in bed, like, crying, like, not doing things. But I've seen in my practice the opposite. I see people who walk around feeling numb, which is something called anhedonia..." (00:48)

Dr. Joseph introduces the concept of high-functioning depression, highlighting that individuals may outwardly appear successful and active while internally battling numbness and a lack of pleasure in activities they once enjoyed.

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Defining Anhedonia and Its Implications

Dr. Judith Joseph: "Anhedonia is when things that used to light you up and give you pleasure just don’t do it for you anymore. It's correlated with depression, substance abuse, schizophrenia, and dementia..." (04:17)

Anhedonia, a core symptom often associated with depression, is characterized by a diminished ability to experience pleasure. Dr. Joseph emphasizes its significance as a precursor to more severe mental health issues and underscores the lack of awareness surrounding this condition among the general public.

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The Role of Modern Technology in Mental Health

Dr. Judith Joseph: "We're becoming numb because of excessive exposure to social media and technology. Children staring at screens are only getting two-dimensional stimulation, leading to neurodivergence..." (04:17 – 25:26)

The conversation navigates the intricate relationship between technology use and mental health. Dr. Joseph discusses how constant digital engagement, especially in children, leads to overstimulation of dopamine pathways, resulting in numbness and conditions like anhedonia. She predicts an impending global epidemic of anhedonia if current trends continue.

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Coping Mechanisms and Behavioral Addictions

Dr. Judith Joseph: "Excessive use of phones and screens can lead to withdrawal symptoms similar to substance addiction. People may experience anxiety, irritability, and other withdrawal-like symptoms when they try to reduce screen time..." (07:02 – 08:08)

Highlighting how digital behavior mirrors addictive patterns, Dr. Joseph explains the psychological and physiological dependencies formed through repetitive screen use. She advises against abrupt cessation ("cold turkey") and advocates for gradual reduction strategies to mitigate withdrawal effects.

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Trauma, Depression, and Memory

Dr. Judith Joseph: "Trauma can lead to symptoms like depersonalization and derealization, where individuals feel disconnected from themselves or their surroundings. This often results in memory gaps as the brain protects itself from overwhelming pain..." (14:13 – 15:19)

Dr. Joseph explores the profound impact of trauma on mental health, detailing how unprocessed traumatic experiences can manifest as memory loss and intensified depression. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing trauma symptoms to foster empathy and effective treatment strategies.

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Healing Through the Five Vs and Alternative Methods

Dr. Judith Joseph: "The Five Vs – Validate, Vent, Values, Vitals, and Vision – are essential for healing. They encompass validating emotions, venting, identifying personal values, focusing on vital physiological processes like breath work, and maintaining a vision for joy and pleasure..." (18:00 – 19:39)

Introducing her holistic healing framework, Dr. Joseph outlines the Five Vs as a comprehensive approach to mental well-being. This model integrates emotional validation, meaningful engagement, physiological awareness, and the pursuit of joy, offering a versatile toolkit for individuals seeking to overcome anhedonia and depression.

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The Importance of Community and Social Connection

Dr. Judith Joseph: "Human beings are inherently social. The quality of your relationships is the number one predictor of longevity. Without strong, supportive connections, individuals are more susceptible to depression and anxiety..." (26:06 – 32:10)

Emphasizing the critical role of community, Dr. Joseph discusses how societal shifts towards individualism and digital interactions have eroded traditional support networks. She advocates for rebuilding community ties as a fundamental step towards enhancing mental health and combating the effects of anhedonia.

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Impact on Children and Early Development

Dr. Judith Joseph: "Introducing electronics at a young age disrupts sensory stimulation essential for healthy brain development. Children exposed to screens early on may experience attention problems and delays in cognitive and social skills..." (24:14 – 26:25)

The episode sheds light on the detrimental effects of early and excessive screen exposure on children. Dr. Joseph links increased rates of autism and ADHD to digital overstimulation, urging parents and educators to reconsider technology's role in early childhood development.

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Scarcity Trauma and High-Functioning Depression

Dr. Judith Joseph: "Scarcity trauma, rooted in experiences of lack and fear of running out, drives individuals with high-functioning depression to incessantly push through without acknowledging their own needs and emotions..." (29:30 – 30:58)

Dr. Joseph connects personal experiences of scarcity trauma to the broader phenomenon of high-functioning depression. She explains how the fear of scarcity perpetuates relentless work habits, often at the expense of personal well-being and meaningful relationships.

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Practical Strategies for Managing Anhedonia

Dr. Judith Joseph: "Use grounding techniques like the 5-4-3-2-1 method to reconnect with your body and emotions. This helps in processing unaddressed trauma and fosters presence in the moment..." (12:12 – 31:11)

Offering actionable advice, Dr. Joseph recommends mindfulness and grounding exercises to help individuals regain emotional connectivity and combat the numbing effects of anhedonia. She stresses the importance of slowing down and being present as pivotal steps towards healing.

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Conclusion and Resources

Throughout the episode, Dr. Judith Joseph emphasizes the need for increased awareness and proactive measures to address the silent struggles of high-functioning depression and anhedonia. She advocates for a balanced approach that integrates traditional and alternative healing methods, community support, and mindful living.

Dr. Judith Joseph: "All of my research is now in my book, and the Five Vs are in there. Healing is within everyone's reach, but we need guidance and acceptance of diverse healing practices..." (34:02 – 35:09)

Listeners are encouraged to explore Dr. Joseph's resources, including her book and online anhedonia quiz, to assess their own mental well-being and seek appropriate support.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Anhedonia is something we really need to pay attention to because 30 years ago, 40 years ago, our brains didn't have so much exposure to social media." (04:17)

• "Knowing what you're dealing with, Affect labeling is in itself therapeutic. It decreases the amount of stress and allows you to think clearly so you can make a plan." (06:54)

• "The number one predictor of longevity is the quality of your relationships." (23:13)

• "Human beings are social. We weren't meant to live alone. We're meant to connect. That's how we survive." (32:10)

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For more insights and resources on combating anhedonia and high-functioning depression, follow Dr. Judith Joseph on her social media platforms or visit her website to take the anhedonia quiz and explore her comprehensive healing strategies.

Transcript

[Announcer]

Hey, music fans, there are some great concerts headed this way. Don't miss out on all the shows in your favorite venues, like Deftones at Madison Square Garden, Eagles at the Sphere, and Foster, the people at the Ryman Auditorium. Tickets are going fast, so don't wait. Head to livenation.com to get your tickets. Now that's livenation.com.

[Host]

When you hear depression and you hear high functioning, they're like opposites.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Correct?

[Host]

You've been able to see in people that they could pull off both.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes. When people think of depression, they think of someone in bed, like, crying, like, not doing things. I've seen in my practice, the opposite walk around feeling numb, which is something called anhedonia. So these people who are high functioning but have all these other symptoms, they don't get the help they need, and then eventually something's going to give.

[Host]

All right, guys, here today on the Digital social hour with Dr. Judith Joseph, author of the High Functioning. Thanks for coming on today.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

No, the. The. Just high functioning.

[Host]

Oh, just high functioning.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yeah.

[Host]

So no, the. Okay, take two. All right, guys. Digital Social Hour here today with Dr. Judith Joseph, author of High Functioning. Thanks for coming on today.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Thanks for having me.

[Host]

Yeah, I didn't know a lot of these terms before. So we got high functioning depression, high functioning anxiety. How did you stumble across this?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

So I have a research lab in midtown Manhattan, and every time I do an assessment, I have to pull out this big book called the DSM 5, which is basically the bible for psychiatry. And I have to go through it and check boxes, and at the end of every condition there is a question, does it impact your functioning? If it's a no, then you move on. You don't have it. Well, I thought there was something about that, like, why are we seeing people who have all these symptoms, but it doesn't impact their functioning, so we don't do anything about it. And I thought that system was broken because as physicians, as healers, we should try to prevent disease, not wait until things are broken and then fix it. So I started looking at people who have these symptoms of certain conditions but don't check that box and are still just pushing through, getting through. Eventually they break down or eventually they develop a substance use issue or some other type of coping that's unhealthy or their body gives. So I felt like I had to study this to prevent it and, like, create a content on it. And it just resonated with so many people, went viral. And here I am today.

[Host]

Wow. Because when you hear depression and you hear high Functioning. They're like opposites.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Correct.

[Host]

You've been able to see in people that they could pull off both.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes. When people think of depression, they think of someone in bed, like, crying, like, not doing things. But I've seen in my practice the opposite. I see people who walk around feeling numb, which is something called anhedonia, where things that used to light them up and give them pleasure just. It doesn't do it for them anymore. People who have poor concentration, feeling guilty, feeling not good enough, feeling like they don't want to burden others by sharing how they're feeling, don't want to let people down, you know, feeling as if they are burnt out. So they have these symptoms of depression, but they can't give up because they have a small kid at home. They have. They're entrepreneurs like you and I. They have people depending on them. They have partners, friends that depend on them. They're the rock of the family.

[Announcer]

Hey, music fans, there are some great concerts headed this way. Don't miss out on all the shows in your favorite venues, like Deftones at Madison Square Garden, Eagles at the Sphere, and Foster the people at the Ryman Auditorium. Tickets are going fast, so don't wait. Head to livenation.com to get your tickets. Now that's livenation.com.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

So these people who are high functioning but have all these other symptoms, they don't get the help they need because the doctor will be like, well, your functioning is great. Come back next year. And then eventually something's going to give. Mm.

[Host]

So you mentioned anhedonia earlier. 99% of people watching this probably haven't heard of that. So what exactly is that and what causes it?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

It's so interesting because in medical literature, if you ask any nurse, any, like, you know, doctor, they'll know what it is. But there's a disconnect between the research, the medicine and the people, right? So you have people who are just, like, scrolling on their phone every day, drinking, doing things, just going through the motions and feeling blah, feeling meh, feeling empty. That is anhedonia. It's an old term that was first discovered in France in the 1800s by a doctor in France. But it's in the medical literature. It's like all over psychiatry literature. But people don't know about it. Because if you go into your doctor and you're not crying, if you don't have something glaring, if you're just like, they're going to be like, oh, you're fine. No one's, like, worried about you. Get out the door. But it is an insidious, sneaky symptom that could lead to other things. Anhedonia is correlated with depression. It's correlated with substance abuse. It's correlated with schizophrenia, dementia. So it's something that we really need to pay attention to because 30 years ago, 40 years ago, our brains didn't have so much exposure to social media. We didn't have so much exposure to tech. We didn't have so much exposure to bad news in the world. So we're all kind of just numb. We're just going through it, we're not processing it. And I think that anhedonia is going to be an epidemic across continents, not just the U.S. whoa.

[Host]

It sounds like it's almost a gateway into bad things.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

It is, because when people feel numb, like, okay, so we're in Vegas right now, and this is Sin City. Right. There's just an overwhelming amount of dopamine. It's like, you know, you want this, get it, you want that. You can get it at 5:00am you know, so when your brain gets all of this pleasure, all these hits, eventually you're going to get depleted, you're going to go numb. So we're seeing this with children, children who are like toddlers in front of these, you know, screens who are just getting hit after hit of the video that they love, the song that they love. And they're just, like, staring at it like this, right? Yeah, they're becoming numb. That is anhedonia. So I do think, you know, it's going to be this. This word that people will start to use regularly. I'm trying to make that happen because I think people are experiencing it, but they just don't have a word for it. And when you give people a word for what they're experiencing, it calms them down. It's called affect labeling. So if you imagine walking into a dark room and, you know, the lights are out, something falls, you're gonna start swinging because you don't know what it is. It could be a person, it could be something dangerous. You turn the light on, you see it's a book that fell. You're like, oh, that's fine. So knowing what you're dealing with, Affect labeling is in itself therapeutic. It decreases the amount of stress and allows you to think clearly so you can make a plan.

[Host]

Right. It's the unknown that's scary.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes.

[Host]

Why? People are scared of ghosts, uncertainty. Yeah. They don't know what's going on. Have you seen this dopamine fasting stuff?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes, I have the dopamine Detox.

[Host]

Yeah, Some people are raw. Dogging flights they call it.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Right.

[Host]

They don't look at their phone the whole flight.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes, yes.

[Host]

I don't know if I could do that.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I would not recommend that. So the way that these apps are developed, these phones are developed, you know, this like they have figured it out. It's a gaming, it's like gambling because you don't know what you're gonna get. Your brain just gets addicted to that type of algorithm. So what people have seen, researchers specifically in this field have seen what looks like withdrawal when people go cold turkey from their devices. I see this in my practice. I treat children and adults and when I work with families to try to set limits around screen time, I see this like kid that you know is usually sweet, just acting like sometimes like an animal. Right. So like I think that if you know that this is actually what looks like for someone who's withdrawing, then you're not going to be cold turkey. You're going to be like, okay, let me set realistic expectations. Let me work with someone to support me through this. Let me slowly and gradually decrease the amount of time I spend on a screen. You're not going to go cold turkey?

[Host]

That's crazy. So people can have withdrawal from phone time?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Absolutely.

[Host]

I never thought of that.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

From video games. You know the DSM 5, the Bible of psychiatry that I told you about, only started like adding these addictive behaviors recently. Things like gaming disorder, things like gambling disorder, things like, things like social media addiction. These are things that are new phenomenon. Right. Because we can't use the same old medicine from 50 years ago to apply to today. It's just not going to happen. And that's why the world needs people like me, researchers who are like not waiting for something to be broken. Like, hey, let's recognize this, let's do something about it. Let's educate people so that they know, if people know, they're going to make better decisions.

[Host]

Right. So you're researching it now because by the time it's in a textbook, it's too late.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

It's too late.

[Host]

Yeah, I agree with that. A lot of the stuff they just teach in general in textbooks, I feel like is outdated.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, you know, doctors are very conservative. You know, we. Like myself, I know, like when I was a pre med student, I was a complete dork in the library. Studied, didn't go out. You know, we play it safe and we wait for like things to finally be validated. Then we do something. The world is so fast, we can't wait anymore. It's the same with, you know, information. If you tell a parent and a child, okay, go to the so and so association of blah blah, blah, they're gonna say, ok, yeah, doc, and leave. And then they're going to go on social media and they're going to get all their information from their favorite influencer. Right, right. So we have to keep up with the people. We can't pretend that the people aren't experiencing, you know, this overwhelming moment, amount of pleasure, this overwhelming amount of technology, social media. We have to keep up with the times or else we're going to lose people.

[Host]

Absolutely. Speaking of losing people, there's some insane studies on attention span.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Oh my God.

[Host]

Coming out. They're saying it's, we have shorter attention spans in Goldfish now.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I mean, it's true. I think I was in a meeting recently at this major social media company and they were saying that people check their phones on average like 200 times a day or something like that. And I believe it. And in that room, as I looked around, people were checking their phones. Right. We just, we're so connected to our phones. You know, I think like I saw recently this person was on a plane and they left their phone and they start like there was a big ruckus on the phone on the plane because they wanted to turn the plane around and get their phone. Like people are so connected to their phones.

[Host]

That's crazy. I mean, I can relate. I spend eight hours a day on mine.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I mean, I try, I one reading about this stuff, I try to really limit my time. Like I'll give myself a break, I'll put it in another room. But it's really hard, especially as an entrepreneur.

[Host]

Oh yeah, Most of that eight hours is for work, luckily. But for some people it's not. They spend eight hours of just leisure, which is pretty dangerous in my opinion.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

It is. It's that anhedonia. It's like, okay, I don't want to go outside, I don't want to touch grass. I just want to sit in my comfy bed and watch this phone.

[Host]

I've been there. I went through anime phases. Watching whole seasons of anime in a day. Wow, Netflix. Whatever it is, Netflix is addicting too.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

It is the binge watching. There are great studies that look at binge watching to tell you why it's a habit forming. So notice at the end of every episode there's a cliffhanger. Well, people are addicted to cliffhangers. They're afraid of the uncertainty, but at the same time there's a Thin line between excitement and fear. And that uncertainty is what keeps people coming back. So they end up watching something in a whole night.

[Host]

100%. I'm watching Lost right now.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Oh.

[Host]

Which is an older show, but every night I'm like, all right, this is the last episode I'm watch. I got to get some sleep. And then it's a cliffhanger. I got to keep watching it. And it doesn't end. Then I'm up till 2:00am well, yeah.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

You'Re going to be. Loss is really long, so.

[Host]

Yeah. Season I'm on season two. You watched it.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I purposely did not. So, like, I'm the same way. Right. Like, I love things. I get attached. But I was that way with Game of Thrones.

[Host]

Oh. I watched all that, too.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

And I told myself I couldn't watch the dragon one because I'm like, I watched my life.

[Host]

I watched Game of Thrones in, like, two weeks.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yeah.

[Host]

I binge the whole thing.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

That's a good one.

[Host]

Yeah. It's hard to beat that one other than the ending, but.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Right.

[Host]

We don't have to spoil that. Yeah. But these days, honestly, it's hard to watch a movie without going to my phone.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Very hard. It's hard to be present. And one of the actual tips that I give people for Anhedonia is to try to be present. I say use the basics. It sounds really granola and cheesy, but 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. It's a grounding method where you pay attention to five things you can see, four things you can feel, three things you can hear, two things you can smell, one thing you can taste. And it sounds like a lot of things, but what it does, it gets you back into your body. Because many times, many of us aren't aware of unprocessed trauma. And that's why we're on the phone. That's why we're drinking a lot. That's why we're doing things excessively, like shopping online, because we're trying to cope with pain that we haven't yet processed. And we all went through pain in 2020. Like, I don't know about you in Vegas, but in New York, there's still no, like, COVID 19 memorial. Right. Like, wow. We haven't really acknowledged it. It's like, okay, that's in the past. Let's move on. But then there were, like, political uprisings. Then there were, like, you know, other variants. And there were all, you know, financial stress. People have student loans they can't pay off. There's just so much going on. So we're just numbing ourselves. And the phone is so easy it right there, right? We can all do it. Kids can do it, adults can do it. So we escape, but we're numbing. We're not processing. So the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 allows us to process. And what studies have found is that when you have trauma, you go through something called depersonalization and derealization. Those are just fancy ways of saying that sometimes it feels like you're not connected to your body. Sometimes it feels like you're not connected to your situation. We've all been there where we're like, wait, what was I just doing? Like, five minutes just passed, but what was I doing? Right? So that's a coping mechanism. So 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 gets us back into our bodies. We start to feel again, we start to process again, and then we're more present.

[Host]

Yeah. Yeah. Trauma's. I'm all about dealing with that. I was so distracted that I didn't. I didn't even know I had trauma. I got a brain scan done at Dr. Amen clinics, okay. And I had a lot of trauma. I mean, I was so busy distracting myself with work, with other stuff, that I never took time to process it.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, that's an actual symptom of trauma. So, like, if you look at that bible of psychiatry, one of the criteria is forgetting. So I have people who are like, there are huge chunks of 2020 and 2021. I just don't even remember. Like, they're going through the phone. They're like, I don't remember that. That's your brain's way of protecting you. So when you have these gaps in your memory, start writing it down. Start, like, putting yourself back there. Because as you start to pinpoint those. Those gaps in time, you'll realize that it's likely due to trauma. Your body was just trying to protect you from feeling that crazy.

[Host]

So you could go through an incident and just. Your brain will forget about it.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Your brain will forget about it. And that's why a lot of people who are victims of violent crimes, when they take the stand and they're like, I just don't remember. Then the. The cross examiner takes advantage of that, and they say, well, you know, this is an unreliable witness, right? Like, but it's because it's a trauma response. Many times people who go through trauma don't remember it because the body and the brain is trying to protect them from that pain. So they don't remember. And it's not because they're Unreliable. It's not because they're lying. It's because the body was protecting you. And that's a trauma response.

[Host]

And that could probably go the other way around. If someone's accusing someone of something, maybe their brain messed up too. Right?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, that's why a lot of people accuse victims. You know, it works on the stand. But if people were more trauma informed and they understood that forgetting is actually a symptom of trauma, then we'd have more compassion, we'd be more patient in the process. We'd try to help them to, you know, ground themselves, use EMDR or other type of tools to reprocess the trauma. Because, you know, what we end up doing is victim blaming.

[Host]

Do you believe all trauma can be healed, even if it's really traumatic?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, you know, it. It depends on your definition of healing. Right. So if your definition of healing is, I just want to get through a day without a flashback, Yes, I think that that is possible. If your definition of healing is, I just want to be completely back to who I was before the incident, I, I don't, I don't know about that. Because I think that, you know, things can be so painful that there's no turning back time. And it's also invalidating, right, to say, well, you can get back to that way, but something happened to you and your brain changed and your body changed.

[Host]

So, you know, I love the honesty. No, for real, like that's, that's really honest.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

It's important to be honest with people. We can't promise you. Yeah, sometimes I scroll through social and it's like, I can self heal you. I can. You know, and it's like, well, you know, let's be realistic. Let's first define healing, right? Because you don't want to give people an unrealistic expectation. Because if they try it and it. They don't get better, then they feel hopeless. They feel like, okay, I guess there's nothing for me, you know.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

But we have to redefine it and make it realistic.

[Host]

Now, as someone that's evidence based, I just got Reiki healing yesterday. What do you think of that energy healing stuff?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I studied cultural psychiatry in over 30 countries. I'm a, I'm a believer. I've been to countries where a doctor will sit with a patient and instead of going through their labs first, they'll be like, so, you know, what are you doing in terms of your prayer routine? Like, you know, what have you done this week to help you with purpose and meaning? And it's like, where am I? Why is this missing doctors? Well, no, because we have insurance companies making doctors like, okay, check the box and get them out of your office to see the next patient in like a line of 30 patients. So you have these broken healers, right? These doctors who are burnt out, overwhelmed, who just need to check the box and not get sued. Trying to heal people who actually need help. It's a. It's a messed up system. So I'm a firm believer in alternative methods, in cultural methods of healing, because that stuff was around way before this modern medicine. And that allowed people to get through wars, famine, you know, earthquakes. Because once you're connected, right, Once you have the basics, I call them the 5Vs, you can thrive. And it doesn't matter how that's packaged, right. The five Es are, number one, validate how you feel. Well, a lot of these healers from other countries, they spend a lot of time helping you to identify emotions and how you feel. The second is venting. So they hear you out, you talk and they listen. The third is values. They tend to talk about what brings you purpose and meaning. Not money, not cars. Like the things that if you had 5 seconds left in this life, you'd be like, I want to do this. Right? And tends to be family. Right. And then vitals, they really spend a lot of time with breath, work. Breathing is the only physiological mechanism that we can control, that we need for life. Right. I can't tell my heart to stop beating. I can't tell my liver to stop detoxing, but I can hold my breath. There's a reason we were adapted and evolved to hold our breath. Because it is something that we can control, to allow, you know, a coming of the fight or flight to be centered. So a lot of these cultural doctors, they'll spend a lot of time on breath work. They'll spend a lot of time on tensing and relaxing and body work. So the vitals are important also because, like I mentioned, a lot of doctors don't ask you about your screen time, but we need to be connected to others. So being off of our devices, spending time in nature. And the last V is vision. Are you celebrating your wins? Are you making time for joy? Are you scheduling pleasure? Right. Many times we look at our calendars, we have a lot of busy stuff, but we don't make time to celebrate our wins.

[Host]

Absolutely. Wow. I love all of that.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Thank you.

[Host]

How'd you come up with that? That's such a cool system.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, it was actually. I was in 2020, I was sitting at my desk in my lab, giving a talk to hundreds of healthcare workers. It was April, and it was a major healthcare system in New York City. And I was tasked to help them through this tough time because we didn't know what this was that was going on. Everybody was freaking out. There were doctors who hadn't seen their families for weeks because they didn't know what this was. So they were just working and then staying in a hotel. You know, people were desperate. And I'm on this call, and I'm, like, trying to give people advice, and I'm like, wait a second. I'm scared. My marriage is falling apart. My child is at home. I'm running a business. Like, I just felt like a hypocrite. So I had to dig deeper and look beyond modern medicine. So I started, you know, going back to my roots and looking at all the studies from the 30 countries. When I was a medical student, I traveled a lot. When I was a undergrad, I traveled a lot. When I was in training, this is when I was learning all the cultural psychiatry stuff. And then I pulled from all of these elements to develop the 5Es. And I tell you, every time I give the talk, people walk away with, I want to practice one of those V's. Like, it resonates because it's all within what we have already. You don't have to go out and get something fancy for it. We just need to be guided.

[Host]

I love that. Because a lot of doctors in America are only exposed to Western philosophy. Right.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

They are.

[Host]

Like, they don't leave the country to learn from.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Other countries don't. Yeah.

[Host]

So that probably gave you different perspectives, and you can kind of pick what you feel is the best from each one, right?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Absolutely. And it resonates with people, and it's. It's fun, it's creative, it's relatable, and everyone has access.

[Host]

Absolutely. Now, this mental health stuff, is it just a us thing? Did you see that when you were in other countries?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

So I haven't been to other countries recently to look at the anhedonia. Well, actually, I've been to other countries to talk on podcasts about this, and the people that I speak with will say, yes, this is happening here, too. But the cultural elements, the purpose, you know, the. The using what's within your circle, I've really picked that up in other countries because other countries are a lot slower. What I found is that they take the time to, you know, spend time with their family. They have longer family leave. In some countries, they have, like, a Four months off a year. And that's okay. So in. And there are other capitalist countries, you know, in like the UK and so forth. But in most countries, you know, there is that time to go to the market and look at your food before you eat it. I talk heavily about something called the biopsychosocial model. So biology, psychology and social. In the biology part of the model, we eat so much processed food. You and I were talking about like our water today.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

But a lot of what we actually eat and consume is so processed, you can't even like, you know, I can't pronounce half the stuff on, on these labels. And that impacts our bodies and our brains. There's this huge field called nutritional psychiatry where they look at people who eat certain types of food that are, you know, low in preservatives, low in sugar, you know, not like all these things that you can't pronounce versus people who eat, you know, this highly processed food. And they're finding higher rates of anxiety and depression in the people who are eating the processed food. So the biology is really important. And we have all these autoimmune conditions, you know, if we really took the time to think about what we're putting in our bodies, that would help us a great deal. Again, we, we have access to that. Right. It's not fancy. The psychology part is the trauma that I was talking about. So a lot of us haven't processed our past trauma. And, you know, we all have attachment styles, how we connect to others. Examining that and thinking about the toxic people in our lives and limiting them. Because the number one predictor of longevity is the quality of your relationships. And many of us don't have very good relationships. Right.

[Host]

Wow. That's the number one predictor.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Number one for longevity.

[Host]

So that's more important than the food you eat?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

More important, believe it or not.

[Host]

That's crazy.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yeah. So look around you. If people are draining you, you gotta do something about that. But when was the last time your doctor said, are you in any toxic relationships? They never say that. No.

[Host]

Wow. I never even thought that could be a link to that. And physical health problems.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I mean, no one does. Yeah, but if you go to other countries, they'll ask you about your family, they'll ask you about the last time you saw your grandma. Right. Wow. We don't, we don't do that in many of these capitalist countries. And then the last part of the biopsychosocial is the social aspect, like what are you doing in your day to day lives? We talked about excessive social media, we talked about excessive spending and all these things, you know, that we are doing that are not necessarily healthy for us. So that's where you can actually have some control. The biology, sometimes you can't control because if you have a medical condition, you know, like you're born certain ways, you have genetics, but the foods you can control. Right. So there are some parts of each bucket that you can control. And start there.

[Host]

Do the rising rates in autism, ADHD concern you at all?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

They do concern me. I mean, I'm someone who treats children, adolescents and adults. And you know, some people will say that there's maybe over diagnosis because people are online and they're learning and they're self diagnosing. And that's probably true. But I do think that there's probably an element of nutrition involved, like I mentioned, the toxic nutrition. I do think that because kids are on screens, you're seeing a lot of neurodiversions that we didn't see years ago because they're not, you know, they're really not getting the stimulation that they need. Children need to. Excuse me. If you ever walk into a room, into a daycare, you'll see all these kids like rolling around, putting things in their mouth, you know, exploring. Children need that sensory stimulation, but if they're on an iPad, if they're on a screen, they're only getting that two dimensional stimulation. So I think that we're seeing neurodivergence. Some of it is autism, some of it isn't. But it's hard to really put it in a box because it's so new. And, and I do think that eventually there's going to be a whole field in the DSM 5 dedicated to mental health conditions tied to digital exposure. Excessive digital exposure.

[Host]

Yeah, there's something there. I had another brain doctor on, he said 90% of the brain is formed ages 0 to 6.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes.

[Host]

And I'm wondering if the introduction of electronics at such young ages is impacting kids heavily.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yeah. Studies are showing that it's causing them to have delays and having problems with attention. So again, we weren't, we really weren't born for this. We were born to be in nature. We were supposed to be exploring, talking to each other, looking at our parents. But if, if your mom is this, then you're gonna be like this and you're not talking to each other. That's how you're gonna develop.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

And it's hard to undo that.

[Host]

Wow. Yeah. No electronics for my kids until they're.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Seven well, they really recommend wait until eighth. There's an organization called wait until eighth. Eighth is the eighth grade.

[Host]

Okay.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

So they're really recommending that you try to stay away from social media until you're 13 for screens. Nothing from zero to two years old. I mean, wow, that's really difficult if you have a single parent at home and they don't have the funds to have a babysitter or a fancy daycare. The iPad is, is the babysitter right?

[Host]

Distracts them, right?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host]

So you got to play that game in your head, like, am I going to be hands on? Or just use this to distract them.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

We really need to do it as a community. I grew up in Trinidad for the first couple of years of my life, and my mom would. My mom has four kids and we're like one year apart.

[Host]

Wow.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

She couldn't do it if there weren't, like, if there wasn't a community. And my dad and mom are closely tied to the church, so people from the church would take care of us. You don't have the sense of community. I think that we have to bring that back in order to address this problem, because parents can't do it alone.

[Host]

I don't get that community aspect in.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

The U.S. well, I think what happens is that when you're in capitalist societies, it's every man or woman for themselves, Right. And again, like, if you are constantly working, if you're, if you're paying off your student loan debt, if you're trying to afford a mortgage, you just don't have the time. Right. And if you don't, if you only get like, what, two, three weeks of vacation a year, when are you going to build community? So it's really a problem that I think we have to face together. There's gotta be some modifications, and I think people are starting to talk about it when they talk about like, okay, hybrid models, like partially at home, partially at work. But then when you are at home, you really have to be mindful and, and intentional about creating community. But what are we doing instead?

[Host]

As soon as you get home, pull up the latest YouTube video or podcast.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

But you know what? The phone isn't going away. We can't get rid of it. But so use the phone. You know, create groups online where you, you meet up online, you connect people online, but you also put a date in the calendar to meet up in person.

[Host]

Love it. Yeah, I'm gonna start doing that. When you study all the blue zones, you're right, though. They all have community aspect. Huge aspect. Of their lives. And I went to Bolivia to visit my fiance's family. Oh, my gosh. Community was everything out there.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yep. And. And the blue, the blue zones also talk about the way that they move their bodies. If you are going to meet someone, you're going to move your body, right? Mm. But if you're staying home, that's two things you're not doing. You're not communicating with others, not connecting, and you're not moving your body.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

So the community solves a lot. And also, when we are with each other, we tend to eat, you know, probably more healthier foods. We're not just sitting home, binge eating, or like, you know, shoving in a processed. Right. We're more mindful of what we eat.

[Host]

Yeah. Yeah. My wake up call with that was the health app. It tracks your steps. I was walking like 3,000 a day.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Wow.

[Host]

Which is terrible.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yeah.

[Host]

So now I walk like 7,7000. So everyone watching this, Check out your health app.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, you're. You're in Vegas too, right?

[Host]

It's hot.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yeah.

[Host]

Summer's tough to get steps in. You got to get up early. You probably walk over 10k in New York.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I do.

[Host]

That's the one good thing about New York.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yeah. The one. There are a couple of good things.

[Host]

A couple good things.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yeah. But.

[Host]

Yeah, there are new studies on pollution. Have you seen those?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes.

[Host]

How they impact the babies even.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

You know, I never had. I had this like post nasal drip that my doctor says is related to living in New York.

[Host]

Whoa.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Like, I never had allergies. But like, since I moved to New York, I've had this like constant dripping. So it's definitely pollution.

[Host]

Damn.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yeah.

[Host]

That's concerning. Any other studies or things you're working on right now?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

You know, scarcity trauma is huge. I'm an immigrant. I came to this country with very little when I was very little. And I'm someone who's, you know, on the outside is successful. Right. Like I have all these like fancy Ivy League degrees, three businesses. But the scarcity keeps creeping in. Like, okay, like, what if I. What if I run out? I gotta hustle. And I found links between scarcity, trauma, and high functioning depression. Right. With people with high functioning depression. They will acknowledge the sadness, they won't acknowledge the anhedonia, but they just push, push, push, push, push through. And I found that my high functioning depression is related to my history of scarcity. I don't ever want to be that little kid who didn't have food. I don't ever want to, you know, not be able to provide for my daughter or for my employees. So I'll forget about again the V's, scheduling my wins, and I'll be like, well, no time to celebrate. Got to push through the hustle just in case we run out. But again, I have to remind myself that when I'm on that deathbed, I'm not going to be thinking, I should have gotten that one more campaign. I'm going to be like, I wish I had more time with my family and friends.

[Host]

Wow. I can relate to that so much. I might be a high functioning depression.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I think a lot of people are. I think we're all walking around with a mask like I was. Yeah, we have a mask of productivity, but we're struggling. We're not acknowledging our feelings. But something's eventually going to give.

[Host]

Yeah, something's there. Because it's not normal to want to work 80 hours a week and think that's normal.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yeah. That you.

[Host]

Which I do. Yeah, I've done that for seven years.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I mean, same like when I wasn't working, I felt like empty and restless and I was like, that can't be good.

[Host]

Yeah. When I'm not working, I literally start, like twitching and I feel uncomfortable.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Get back into your body. Use those five V's. Use the five. Four, three, two, one. Start to feel again. Slow down. Yes.

[Host]

Yeah. When I did that Reiki healing, a lot of pain came out of my body. It was really interesting because I came in kind of skeptical. I've never done something like that, but I was open. And. Yeah, he said I had a lot of stress and anxiety.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, the thing I love about your generation is that you're so open to learning and trying new things and focused on intentionally healing. So I think you're gonna be better off than the older generations. But you also have way more stuff to deal with than older generations did. You have more social media, you have so much more comparison. Like, it's harder to have a house. It's just harder to have things. So I do think that, you know, you have these challenges, but you're also. Your generation has a lot of positives.

[Host]

Yeah, I think each generation is like that. Our generation cyberbullying is pretty bad right now.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

It is. It really is. Yeah.

[Host]

I didn't catch that. I. I got bullied physically, but not. Yeah. Because Instagram came out when I was in high school, so I caught the tail end of that. But now these kids, they get home, they getting bullied on Tik Tok and Instagram.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

It's not Just kids, though. Adults are getting bullied too, right?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

But for children, it's worse because with a child's brain, they perceive rejection the way that an adult brain would perceive being stabbed. So, like, for a child to be rejected by their peers is more painful than to be physically hurt.

[Host]

Really?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

So when. Yeah, so when your kid comes home is like, so and so doesn't like me. You can't be like, sticks and stones. Don't bring me. That doesn't work because their brain perceives it as like they're dying.

[Host]

Why is that?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

You think again, back to the basics, right? I told you. The number one predictor of longevity. Longevity is our relationships. Human beings are social. We weren't meant to live alone. We weren't meant to be on an island. We're meant to connect. That's how we survive. We don't have the talons of an eagle. We don't have the claws of a tiger. We have each other.

[Host]

Right.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

So we need each other. And when a child is rejected, take it seriously, you know, don't brush it off, because that's very painful for them.

[Host]

And that's why I think I work so hard, because I was rejected a lot as a child from friend groups. And I wouldn't even tell anyone because I was so embarrassed. So I didn't have an outlet for it.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

That's your trauma.

[Host]

Yeah. I was scared to tell my parents about it.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

And do you know the symptom of trauma? One of the symptoms in the DSM 5 is shame and blame. So you didn't even know it. You were blaming yourself and internalizing it when it wasn't your fault.

[Host]

Wow, that's crazy. But I feel like that's a common thing for kids to want to fit in in a friend group and they get rejected and then they got no one to talk to.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

It's one of the number one reasons. I see pediatric patients and they don't want to tell their parents because the parents like, oh, don't worry about it. You have your siblings, you have us. You don't need them. Well, you're invalidating their trauma. So it's really one of the number one reasons. I see children with depression and anxiety.

[Host]

Wow. So even young children are getting that.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Even young children.

[Host]

That's crazy. Yeah, because you picture children, you think of just happiness and innocence. But that's. That's sad to hear.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

They're struggling.

[Host]

Wow.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

And kids are mean.

[Host]

Yeah, they're definitely mean.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

They are mean.

[Host]

Dr. Judith, where can people find you and look more into your studies? And everything.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Follow me. Dr. Judith Joseph. I'm on all the apps. TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, name it, Threads, Facebook.

[Host]

We'll link it all below.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes. And then also take my anhedonia quiz. Like, you know, some of the things that you were saying, you know, you were saying that you felt numb, you felt restless, you didn't enjoy things, you were hidden away. Those are all symptoms of anhedonia. And people take that quiz online and then it gives them a score, and then they can take it into a therapist or take it into a coach and do something about it.

[Host]

Wow. I'll take it tonight and I'll post it on my Instagram.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Thank you.

[Host]

Cool. We'll link it below. We'll link the quiz below as well. Guys, check it out.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

So all of my research is now in my book, and the five Vs are in there. I have all these creative ways that I pulled from all these different countries and put them in the book. So there's something in there for literally everyone. And again, I think healing is within everyone's reach, but we just need guidance, and we just need to be told that it's okay to do it differently than how traditional people do it.

[Host]

Beautiful. We'll put the book in the description below. Thanks for coming on.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Thank you for having me.

[Host]

Thanks for watching, guys. Peace.

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