The Hidden Crisis in South Africa Exposed | Ernst Roets DSH #1284

Summary

Digital Social Hour: The Hidden Crisis in South Africa Exposed | Ernst Roets | Episode #1284

Release Date: March 31, 2025

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Introduction

In episode #1284 of Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly engages in a profound and urgent conversation with Ernst Roets, a South African activist and author. The discussion delves into the escalating crisis in South Africa, focusing on systemic violence, political instability, and socio-economic turmoil. This comprehensive summary captures the critical points, insights, and urgent calls to action presented by Roets.

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Historical Context and Current Focus on South Africa

Ernst Roets begins by providing a historical overview of South Africa's fluctuating role on the world stage. He recounts periods of international attention, such as the Boer War and the apartheid era, followed by a temporary global reprieve post-apartheid. However, Roets highlights that South Africa has re-emerged as a focal point due to escalating internal crises that demand international scrutiny.

Ernst (00:40): "South Africa has been interesting. [...] there’s a lot happening and there’s a lot that should be... mentioned and talked about."

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Revelations from the Interview with Tucker Carlson

Roets discusses his interview with Tucker Carlson, which brought significant attention but also severe backlash. He faced threats of treason, reflecting the intense government opposition to his activism.

Ernst (03:37): "I said to Tucker that I'm going to get in a lot of trouble for the interview."

The consequences included treason charges and death threats, illustrating the perilous environment for dissenters in South Africa.

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Deteriorating US-South Africa Relations

The conversation shifts to the strained relationship between South Africa and the United States. Roets criticizes former President Donald Trump's tweets concerning South African farm attacks, which he believes were misleading yet have necessitated a more critical US stance.

Ernst (05:38): "President Trump [...] he basically said that he’s concerned about the farm attacks, the farmers being killed, and the land invasions."

He notes recent US actions, such as sanctions and declaring the South African ambassador persona non grata, underscoring the tense diplomatic climate.

Ernst (07:05): "The South African ambassador to the US has just been declared Persona non grata."

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The Crisis of Farm Murders

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the alarming issue of farm murders. Roets outlines four critical reasons why these attacks constitute a national crisis:

1. Frequency: Approximately two farm attacks occur daily, with two murders each week.
2. Brutality: Attacks involve extreme violence and torture methods.
3. Economic Impact: Farmers are crucial as employers and providers of food, making their loss detrimental to the economy.
4. Isolation of Farmers: Farms are often remote, making protection and policing challenging.

Ernst (11:21): "According to police statistics, over a period of two decades, there were two farm attacks every day in South Africa."

Roets emphasizes that these murders are not merely acts of poverty-driven crime but are often politically motivated, targeting white farmers as symbols of land ownership and systemic inequality.

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Media Bias and Misrepresentation

Roets reveals a disturbing pattern in media reporting, where incidents of white perpetrators attacking black victims receive disproportionately higher coverage than the reverse.

Ernst (21:21): "When a white person commits violence on a farm in South Africa against a black person, it’s reported on by the media, especially the English media, 16 times as much as when the racial dynamics is reversed."

This skewed portrayal fosters a false narrative that white farmers are the primary aggressors, undermining the actual victimization they face.

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Political Instability and Loss of Faith in Governance

The discussion highlights a severe political vacuum caused by widespread disillusionment with South Africa’s government. Roets points out declining voter turnout and erosion of trust across all political parties, signaling impending systemic changes.

Ernst (24:31): "Many have just sort of walked away from the political system, for example, in voter turnout."

He argues for a transition towards a decentralized political system that grants greater autonomy to diverse communities, drawing parallels with the challenges faced by the European Union.

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Rise of Organized Crime and Private Security

Roets sheds light on the rampant organized crime in South Africa, exacerbated by governmental incapacity and political instability. He describes various criminal groups, including prison gangs and the notorious construction mafia, which extort businesses and control local economies through intimidation and violence.

Ernst (39:18): "The construction mafia shows up [...] If you don’t use us, the project isn’t going to get built."

Due to ineffective policing, private security has become a necessity, even outweighing the combined strength of the official police and army forces.

Ernst (41:04): "Private security in South Africa is still bigger than the police and the army combined."

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Taxation and Economic Disparities

Roets criticizes South Africa’s complex and inequitable tax system, where a small fraction of the population bears a disproportionate tax burden. This systemic flaw exacerbates economic inequality and fuels further discontent.

Ernst (31:18): "In South Africa, about 85% of income tax is paid by 1 in 30 people."

He contrasts this with the United States, highlighting the extreme imbalance in tax distribution and the consequent misuse of tax funds by the government.

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Ernst Roets' Pioneer Initiative

In response to the crises, Roets introduces the Pioneer Initiative, a movement aimed at fostering sustainable political change and decentralization in South Africa. This initiative seeks to empower communities, promote self-governance, and develop frameworks to prevent both worst-case and best-case scenarios.

Ernst (43:52): "We set up this pioneer initiative. Maybe if you can put the link also in the description, people who want to contribute in some way that would really have."

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Call to Action and Conclusion

Roets concludes with a compelling call to action, urging international support to address South Africa’s multifaceted crises. He emphasizes the need for global awareness and involvement to facilitate meaningful change and prevent further deterioration.

Ernst (43:49): "If people watching this feel that they want to help. [...] So any support that we can get would really be appreciated."

Host Sean Kelly wraps up the episode by thanking Roets and encouraging listeners to engage with the resources provided to support the Pioneer Initiative.

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Notable Quotes

• Ernst Roets (00:00): "If you don't want people to be murdered, that means you are somehow a racist."
• Ernst Roets (11:21): "According to police statistics, over a period of two decades, there were two farm attacks every day in South Africa."
• Ernst Roets (21:21): "It’s reported on by the media, especially the English media, 16 times as much as when the racial dynamics is reversed."
• Ernst Roets (31:18): "In South Africa, about 85% of income tax is paid by 1 in 30 people."
• Ernst Roets (43:49): "If people watching this feel that they want to help... any support that we can get would really be appreciated."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Digital Social Hour serves as a crucial exposé on the escalating crises in South Africa, highlighting the urgent need for both national and international intervention. Ernst Roets presents a compelling narrative backed by data and personal experience, advocating for systemic change and global solidarity to navigate South Africa through its darkest hours.

For those seeking to understand the complexities of South Africa's current turmoil and explore ways to contribute to positive change, this episode offers invaluable insights and actionable steps.

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Resources:

• Ernst Roets' Book: Available on Amazon, published in 2018, focusing on South African farm killings.
• Pioneer Initiative: [Link in Podcast Description]

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Ernst]

Who are campaigning against this, are only doing this because they are white supremacists and because they want to bring back the apartheid system. So that's the accusation again. It's bizarre. So if you don't want people to be murdered, that means you are somehow a racist.

[Host]

Wow.

[Ernst]

That's their position. And after that. I haven't heard the South African government say much about this.

[Host]

Okay, guys, first guest from South Africa, Ernst here today. I've always wanted to go there, so I'm excited to chat someone that's from there. Thanks for coming on, man.

[Ernst]

Thank you. Thank you for having me. And I'm honored to be the first and hopefully I'm not the last.

[Host]

Yeah, there's a lot going on there, man, so we need to cover it.

[Ernst]

Yeah, well, South Africa has been interesting. It's. It's weird because South Africa. There were some times in history when South Africa was sort of the focus of the world. One time was during the Boer War, when in the. At the turn of the previous century, when a lot of the international community was looking at what's happening in South Africa. When we were fighting the English and then everyone sort of forgot about South Africa. Then we had apartheid. And then during the 80s and the 90s, the whole world was looking at South Africa again. And so the narrative was that we had this, you know, this evil, oppressive past. And South Africa was then liberated by this incredible movement called the anc, the African National Congress, led by Nelson Mandela. And then it was this miracle story. South Africa became this incredible peaceful place. And then everyone just turned away. And now all of a sudden, South Africa is becoming an international focus again, for which we are very grateful because there's a lot happening and there's a lot that should be. Should be mentioned and talked about.

[Host]

Why do you think it's becoming an international focus right now?

[Ernst]

Because the. The world was misled during the 1990s about what South Africa would be. It's quite funny. There's a documentary film, I think it's called Miracle Rising. It was produced by the BBC and it has all these celebrities talking about just how amazing South Africa is now after the political transition. And so you have Charlize Theron and Oprah Winfrey and Bono from U2 and. And then politicians as well. Bill Clinton, like the most high profile list you can think of. And as I said, it's called Miracle Rising. So it's quite clear what they are saying. It's this miracle story. And the problem is that the ruling party in South Africa that took power Even though the world very much liked to believe and wanted to believe that it's this incredible liberation movement were fundamentally a destructive force. They have always called themselves a liberation movement. Hell bent on having a revolution in South Africa. A socialist revolution. That's how they put it. It's not my words, it's theirs. And. And so they've started implementing these policies and. But the world didn't want to. To focus on that because they wanted to believe that South Africa, there's incredible miracle story. And now it's gotten to the point where you can't ignore it anymore. We're talking about the targeting of property rights, the destruction of the health system, the education system. Public service is collapsing every. Every metric you can think of. And. And now I think it's gotten to the point where you can't ignore it anymore. So the pendulum has swung so far that it cannot go any further and now it's swinging back. And. And we're happy about that because we can't fix these problems if people don't talk about it.

[Host]

Yeah. And you just did a major interview with Tucker. How was the feedback on that one?

[Ernst]

Incredible. I'm very grateful that we did the interview. And during the interview, I said to Tucker that I'm going to get in a lot of trouble for the interview. I did to an extent. There are threats of charges of treason. There have been treason charges filed, although they didn't say against whom. I think it's against my colleagues.

[Host]

Wow.

[Ernst]

Not against me in particular, but who went to the United States or not. Charges, complaints of treason with the police. And the police is currently investigating it.

[Host]

Wow.

[Ernst]

Yeah. It's bizarre. I mean, treason is like the worst crime you can commit. Fortunately, we don't have the death penalty.

[Host]

But that's a serious charge.

[Ernst]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And the accusation is. Is. Is. So the argument is it's people badmouthing their country. So talking about the problems that I mentioned now, according to some, that's treason.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ernst]

It's bizarre. So there's no. The free speech is completely out of.

[Host]

Yeah. I gu. Objective with treason. Right.

[Ernst]

Yes. Yes. So. So I also, after the interview, if. If the question is about the feedback. I had some horrible feedback in like, literally death threats. Like, really, really.

[Host]

Wow.

[Ernst]

Atrocious death threats. People saying they want to. They're going to find me and necklace me.

[Host]

Jeez.

[Ernst]

And so the necklace is a very brutal method of torture that they had in South Africa. It's killing someone by putting a rubber tire around their neck and setting it on fire. So you can't move. And then while you're burning inside the styre, they stone you.

[Host]

Oh, my gosh.

[Ernst]

So I've had more than one person actually say that to me. But having said that, the positive feedback was much more than I expected from within South Africa and from abroad, people saying, listen, thank you for talking about this, and thank you for being a voice for the problems in South Africa, raising awareness. So I'm much more happy about the positive feedback than I am concerned about the negative feedback.

[Host]

Yeah. How is the United States approaching their relationship with South Africa right now?

[Ernst]

Yeah, it's changing. So. So a lot has been happening in terms of the US And South Africa. So President Trump, during his previous term of office, he. He spoke about South Africa sort of in passing him. He made a notorious tweet in 2018 for which he was severely criticized. But basically what he said was that he's concerned about the farm attacks, the farmers being killed, and the land invasions. And so a lot of people. I mean, you would know this better than me because Trump said it. It has to be false, because Trump is a liar. So a lot of people really went out to prove that there's no problem in South Africa because Trump said there is a problem. But you can't ignore the problem. You can't pretend that it's not there. It's. It's unavoidable. And so things have really taken a turn now when the US Government have issued a executive order recently, really pressuring the South African government, which in a sense boils down to sanctions, but also saying that they want to grant refugee status to especially the Afrikaner farmers who are targeted during these very horrible farm attacks that we have in South Africa. And other than that, the most recent development as we're speaking now is that the South African ambassador to the US has just been declared Persona non grata. He was given, I think, 72 hours to leave the country.

[Host]

By Rubio, right?

[Ernst]

Yeah, by Marco Rubio. And I mean, I'm not sure how he thought that this wouldn't happen, because he was. So if you're a diplomat and if you're an ambassador to a country, your job is to build relations with that country, to. To strengthen ties, encourage cooperation. This guy from representing South Africa went on podcasts and interviews calling Trump a white supremacist and. And a Nazi and so forth. So imagine you're the ambassador to a country, and you call the president. You accuse him of being a Nazi.

[Host]

It's holy crap.

[Ernst]

And so the South African government has become really unhinged. They. With these type of comments. My favorite one was a few years ago. As I said, they're very socialist, so they think all the socialist solutions are sustainable, including Venezuela, Zimbabwe and so forth. So the ruling party in South Africa had a delegation sent to Venezuela after the collapse of the economy there. And they came back and they said that they don't know why people are saying there are problems in Venezuela. They just saw people partying in the streets. The people are so happy with the government. They're literally having parties in the street. And then the South African ambassador in Venezuela went out publicly saying he was very angry about again with the United States. And he was blaming. Everything is always the United States faults. He was blaming America for Venezuela's problems. And he said the South African government is ready to take up arms and declare war against the United States.

[Host]

Jeez, that's a bad idea.

[Ernst]

But. Yeah, exactly. But the funniest thing is someone then called the White House. It. I think it was under Biden when that happened. Might have been Trump for comments. Listen, this representative of a foreign government have just threatened war and they just said the response was basically, yeah, well, we don't care.

[Host]

It's not serious enough.

[Ernst]

Yeah, yeah, it's not serious enough. And they don't really have an army. South Africa used to have a very strong, very proficient army, but it's been completely again because of these destructive policies and just the collapse of the government.

[Host]

Wow. There's no army anymore.

[Ernst]

Yeah, in theory there is. Is. But in practice not.

[Host]

That's scary if someone wants to, you know, invade you guys.

[Ernst]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So we just had this big military blunder where we sent soldiers into the. The. The Congo to try to be involved in a conflict in the Congo which turned out very badly for. For South Africa because the South African soldiers were killed.

[Host]

Oh, wow.

[Ernst]

Yeah. And. And some were. Were captured. So there. There's an army in theory, but super small. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's. And massive problems with discipline, with logistical things like food and funding and proper training and all of that. So it's. It's by no means something that should be regarded as a threat.

[Host]

Wow. Does anyone have your back if someone were to attack any countries?

[Ernst]

No.

[Host]

Wow.

[Ernst]

Well, well, if. If it's a question of war between states, we'd probably be supported by China.

[Host]

Oh, really?

[Ernst]

Yes. Yeah. South Africa is very much into, you know, alliances with the east and so forth.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Ernst]

China is very. And I think this is also in a U. S angle. China is very interested In South Africa. Not just South Africa. In Africa, with the Belt and Road Initiative and the minerals in Africa, the politics in Africa, that is very frail. And I think this is another reason why America should take note of what's happening in South Africa, because if Africa collapses and African states collapse more than they've collapsed already.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ernst]

It opens the door for China to come in as well. And I think there's an. There's an important Western interest angle that should be considered there.

[Host]

Yeah, that's a good point, because we're at that trade war with China, Right?

[Ernst]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So I think it's very crucial and. And China is really very deliberate in their attempts to have this sort of a stronger stronghold in Africa, which would, of course, strengthen China. Significant significantly from a geopolitical perspective.

[Host]

Yeah, that makes sense. You mentioned the farm murders earlier. So what. What exactly is going on with that?

[Ernst]

Yeah, the farm murders have been happening since 1990, and it has gradually increased. And so let me, Let me. Let me explain it this way. We've been arguing that it should be a priority crime. And the reason why is there are four reasons. And the four reasons sort of give you. Gives you an overview of the extent of the problem. The first reason is the frequency at which these attacks happen. Now, there have been several attempts to calculate this. I think the best attempt is to look at police statistics according. And this is in the book as well. According to police statistics, over a period of two decades, there were two farm attacks every day in South Africa.

[Host]

Wow.

[Ernst]

And two farm murders every week. So that's a murder happening during an attack. And a farm attack is not domestic violence or something like that. It's when someone comes from outside of the farm, invades the farm and attacks them. So that's the first reason. The second reason is the brutality. It's the most grotesque methods of torture that you can imagine that these people are subjected to. And it includes dragging people around the house, it includes dismembering them, gorging out of the eyes, things like that. One person had a shower nozzle turned up. The. The water was turned on. Up on, you know, the warmest it could be. And the shower nozzle was shoved down his throat.

[Host]

Oh, my gosh.

[Ernst]

So we've had that. We've had people tortured with melted plastic, people set on fire, people drowned. It's really, really, like unimaginably grotesque, the torches. So that's the second reason. The. The third reason is simply the unique role that farmers play, because farmers are employers and they provide food. So if you don't have farmers, you have a whole bunch of job losses, you have increased unemployment, and you have problems in terms of food security. And the fourth reason is simply the fact that farmers live in unique circumstances. They are far away from police stations, far away from their neighbors. So you need some form of a unique and a focused counter strategy. But the police and the government, their official position is that it's not happening. That's what the President of South Africa said when he spoke in New York. There are no farm murders happening. But it's strange that he would attempt to deny that because there have been thousands and we literally have the names of the people who have been murdered. And I mean, I mention in the book not just a whole bunch of people who've been attacked and killed, but even the people I personally know who have been attacked or who knew people I knew who have been murdered.

[Host]

Wow.

[Ernst]

So it's, it's. The problem is so far reaching that to try to pretend that it's not happening is completely bizarre, but that's somehow what, what they are trying to do.

[Host]

Have you kind of found out why they're taking that angle or.

[Ernst]

Yeah, well, it's because of, they are concerned about, about pressure from America. And actually what happened is in 2018, I was part of a delegation with an organization called AFriforum to the US to talk about the farm attacks and the land invasions and the targeting of property rights. And I was interviewed then by Tucker Carlson for the first time. And shortly after that, Trump made that tweet I mentioned.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ernst]

And so the South African government's response to that was that they announced that they will embark on a mission to the United States to tell the truth about what's happening in South Africa. That's what they said. And so they came to you, to the United States under the banner of telling the truth about South Africa. And this so called truth is that they just publicly announced that there are no land invasions happening, there's no land grabs happening in South Africa, and there are no farm murders, no white farmer has been murdered. It's bizarre that they could even try to say that when it's very easy to verify.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ernst]

In today's world, in the world of social media, it's completely bizarre, but I don't know how they think that would work, but apparently they do.

[Host]

And do they still have that take or did they.

[Ernst]

Well, they haven't said much after that, so currently they're just trying to ignore the problem. At another, I spoke at an event in Geneva at The United nations forum, it was a forum on minority rights. And so I was there to talk about the situation of minority rights in South Africa. And then a representative from the South African government was there. And it was quite bizarre because, as I said, it's. It's a forum for minority rights. And this South African representative objected to. To our appearance there, the fact that we were there. And the reason why she objected was she said that this is just a minority, and because they're a minority, you shouldn't listen to them when it's literally a conference for minority rights. But she went further than that and said that the people who are against the killing of killings of farmers in South Africa, the people who are campaigning against this are only doing this because they are white supremacists and because they want to bring back the apartheid system. So that's the accusation again, it's bizarre. So if you don't want people to be murdered, that means you are somehow a racist.

[Host]

Wow.

[Ernst]

That's their position. And after that, I haven't heard the South African government say much about this, so they're just trying to ignore the problem.

[Host]

So why are the farmers being targeted? Is it for their land and their.

[Ernst]

Yeah, it's a combination of reasons, but it's. Well, the sociologists and the media and so forth would say it's simple. It's because of poverty. People are poor, and therefore they commit crime. But there are many other areas that if you're poor and you want to commit crime because of the fact that you are poor, you can do a lot of things. Attacking a farmer is one of them. Invading shops and looting shops is another. But we have a problem with looting of shops in South Africa. But it's not as big as the. Well, we've had some major outbursts with mob violence in South Africa, and then you get a lot of destruction in terms of shops being looted. But, but, so. But the thing is that there certainly is a political dynamic.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ernst]

To the farm murders. It's partly because they own land and because the. The accusation in South Africa is that if you are white and you own land, that ownership is illegitimate. It doesn't matter if you bought the land. So if you buy a farm but you are white, then you are somehow your ownership is illegitimate and you should be targeted for owning the land.

[Host]

Holy crap.

[Ernst]

Yeah, it's crazy. And so. And so the. We have these politicians on the left who are talking about how. And this is a direct quote, white people are criminals and should be treated as such. And we need to Slit the throat of whiteness. And we have. Yeah. So with, and we are involved with the revolution and the revolution necessarily involves killing. You know, they would make speeches talking about that and then they would talk about the farmers who are to blame for everything that is wrong with the country. So the farmers have become the, the, the scapegoat or sort of the metaphor for everything that everyone is angry about. Especially if you are black and you are poor, then everything should be blamed on the farmers, the white farmers.

[Host]

Wow.

[Ernst]

And so they make these speeches and then they burst into song and they chant kill the Boer. Kill the. The bu is a reference to the Afrikaner people, but it's also the Afrikaans word for farmer. And, and so, and we see that, that sometimes during these attacks, obviously there would be some that have no political motive. We don't know. You have to ask the attacker or the perpetrator what their motive was. So a lot of these attacks we don't know. But in some of the cases it's very clear that there was a political motive. We know this because the attackers would chant political slogans while, while torturing the people. Sometimes they would write slogans such as kill the Boer on like the farm wall. In one extreme case, they took the blood of the victims and they actually wrote on the wall, they wrote kill the buer. Jeez. Yeah, so, so yeah, it's, it's, it's really crazy. There needs to be an intervention.

[Host]

Something needs to happen and there's a lot of COVID ups. Right. We were talking earlier how the media is not reporting on some of these.

[Ernst]

It's really spectacular to see how the media is responding to these attacks. So, so in, in this book we did a study on the attacks. And what, what we did, it was a very interesting study. So we took every single incident of violence on a farm, not just farm attacks. So any, anything that happens on a farm where there's violence that we could find hundreds of cases or perhaps thousands. I can't remember the, the amount that we could found in the media at least. And we broke them up according to every variable. The variables would be where did this happen, what time did it happen, how many people were there, what methods of torture was used. And, and then the race, race dynamics involved. And what we found, we then we then compared that, we also considered how the media reported on it. That was one of the variables. So we have this whole big list of variables regarding the pharma tax and then we started comparing them and the one question we asked was which variable is the Most significant in determining how the media responds to an incident of violence on a farm in South Africa. And we thought it might be the race of the victim, but it turns out it isn't. It's the race of the perpetrator.

[Host]

Wow.

[Ernst]

And so what we found was that when a white person commits violence on a farm in South Africa against a black person, it's reported on by the media, especially the English media, 16 times as much as when the racial dynamics is reversed.

[Host]

Crazy.

[Ernst]

And so I wrote about this in the book, and one journalist tried to justify this to me by saying, but you need to remember that when it's white on black violence, it happens less frequently and therefore it's more newsworthy. So we have to report on it more. But the problem with that is you create a false narrative. So this narrative is created that the actual people who are committing violence are the white farmers.

[Host]

Right.

[Ernst]

When all the available evidence indicates that it's the other way around. The white farmers are the victims, and because they are the victims, they are portrayed in the media as the perpetrators. It's completely bizarre. But that's what's happening.

[Host]

That's interesting. In America, I feel like people are waking up to the news how a lot of its propaganda in South Africa are people waking up over there too?

[Ernst]

Yes, I think we still have some crazy people either in the media. So I think this is true for America as well. But it's certainly true in South Africa that you have this spectrum. You could say it's a bell curve in terms of where people are politically. Most people are sort of in the middle, some more to the right, some more to the left. And then you have the extremes. You have like a small group on the far right, and then you have a small group on the far left. But the. The interesting difference is the people on the far right, you don't see them. You see them on social media, usually with. With fake profiles or under pseudonyms or so forth. That's where you see them. And you. They both, you know, conspiracy theories and things like that, but you don't really see them in real life, or you have to look for them if you want to engage with them. But the people on the far left, you see them because they are the editors of newspapers and they are professors at universities, and they are politicians. It's. And they are the most extreme people politically to the left of the spectrum, but they are also some of the most influential people. So we have. We have those who are still trying to deny the problem and still trying to defend the government for everything that they're doing and so forth. But you have to. You have to be completely naive to ignore what's happening in South Africa. And so a lot of people are waking up to this. What we can see in South Africa at the moment is a political vacuum in the sense that people have just lost faith in the political system. They lost faith in all the political parties, not just the ruling party. And so we have had this massive drop in voter turnout, for example, which just is evidence to us that South Africa is moving towards a different political dispensation, different political system, which could be much worse, but it could also be better. And that's something that I'm working on now. A lot is, Is trying to move towards a better, more sustainable political system in which the central government has much less power than it has.

[Host]

That's your new initiative, right? The Pioneer Initiative.

[Ernst]

Yes. So. So the Pioneer Initiative was recently launched as a result of this escalation of. Of friction. Let me mention this. The president of South Africa, Cyril Ramaphosa, was, during the 1990s, the chief negotiator for the ANC when the negotiations took place for the new South Africa and the political system that we have. And another member of parliament went up to him during these negotiations and said to him, well, your party is quite antagonistic towards white people, but you also talk about minority rights and all of this. So what's your plan for dealing with the whites in South Africa? To which he responded, the plan is to deal with white people. Like boiling a frog in boiling water. That metaphor. If you put the frog in the pot and you just make sure that the water becomes warmer gradually, if you throw the frog in boiling water, it jumps out. But if the water just. If, if, if the, the temperature gradually increases, the water stay. The frog stays in the water until he boils to death. And so what we've seen is. That's actually what we saw in South Africa since 1994. So in 1996, they started IMP. These bee laws. It's. They call it black empowerment, but it's not about empowering black people, it's about targeting white people. And, and then so gradually over time, their policies have become more and more aggressive and radical up to the point where we are now, where they want to take away property rights or at least erode property rights significantly so that the government can take your property, confiscate your property without paying you for it.

[Host]

That's scary.

[Ernst]

Yeah, that's what they want to do now. And so the point is that We've gotten to a point where you can't ignore the problems anymore. And a lot of people have just, are just sort of walking away from the political system, for example, in voter turnout and so forth. And so South Africa is moving towards some form of a change, some form of a constitutional change. Some people are upset about that, some people are excited about that, but it could be much worse. And I think it's important for people who are interested in some form of stability in South Africa to be more outspoken about this, in moving towards something that is more sustainable, something that is significantly more decentralized, something that also focuses on the promotion of self governance for communities or peoples to govern themselves, as opposed to having this one strong central government over this massive territory with all these diverse peoples.

[Host]

That makes sense. So this is a pivotal moment.

[Ernst]

Yeah, I think South Africa is going to change and, and that's why, I mean you're going to your first question. So people are starting to take note of what's happening in South Africa. There's a lot happening in South Africa and there was this, this weird silence about South Africa and now a lot of people are starting to wake up. So there's some form of change coming. There are people more on the left who want a different political sense, a dispensation, because they don't want any form of human rights, they don't want any form of minority protection, they want a much more radical system or they want human rights that only benefits them. So there are people pushing for that already. And I think what we need to do now is to push for a more sustainable system that ensures that the minorities in South Africa are protected. And I think the west and countries like America have a role to play because America, for example, was very involved with setting up the political system that we have in South Africa today, thinking that this would be the solution, this would be the miracle that BBC spoke of and the United nations boasted of. And it turns out it isn't. And so these countries, especially Western countries, and especially the USA that was so involved in getting us to where we are now, I would say has some form of a moral responsibility to be more actively involved in fixing this mess that we are in. And I think the way to fix this mess is to push towards a system, as I said, that is much more decentralized and that could take many forms. It could be a federation, it could be cultural or territorial autonomies for the communities living there. It could be Balkanization. That's like the curse word or the heresy to talk about. Secession and so forth. But it could be that. But there needs to be some form of change. Obviously it needs to be constitutional in the sense that it should be approached through legal processes, not an overthrow of the government or something like that. But we need to move towards that.

[Host]

Is the US sending any foreign aid to South Africa now?

[Ernst]

The US has stopped foreign aid to South Africa largely because of the corruption, because a lot of it is just stolen. It gets lost.

[Host]

Oh, wow.

[Ernst]

But also because this DOGE initiative with. With Elon Musk who grew up in South Africa.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ernst]

And this America first policy, which I think as a non American, I can support that America has to look at America's interests first. And so this concern that America is just giving out money to everyone all over the world. And so a lot of the foreign aid has actually stopped. I do think if America gives foreign aid, it's not America's job to fix the rest of the world. I think they have a responsibility where they were involved in creating. Creating a mess. But if they do give foreign aid, I think a way to do that would be to look at initiatives that are not linked to the government but to civil society institutions where there's more accountability.

[Host]

I love that approach because the government always just finds ways to take the money.

[Ernst]

Yeah. And then the money just gets lost.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ernst]

And that's what happened with COVID But I mean, South Africa has a massive corruption problem. So it's, it's. And nothing is done about that. So giving money to the government to solve societal issues is, Is a non starter.

[Host]

What are the taxes over there like?

[Ernst]

So our tax system is very complicated. I read somewhere that it's the most complicated system in the world. I'm not sure if that's true, but it is very complicated. You need to get people to help you do your taxes.

[Host]

Wow.

[Ernst]

Yeah. You need to get.

[Host]

It's not like a set number or anything.

[Ernst]

No, no, no. So there's a, there's a sliding scale. The more money you have, the more you. You have to spend on taxes. But it's so disproportionate. I mentioned this on the Tucker interview as well. It's, there's, it's. It seems to me, to me that taxation is a bit skewed in America already.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ernst]

Where from what, what we could find about 85% of income tax in America is paid by about 10% of people.

[Host]

Wow.

[Ernst]

In South Africa, about 85% of income tax is paid by 1 in 30 people.

[Host]

Holy crap.

[Ernst]

So it's. And there's the irony so, so it's disproportionately minority communities who are paying tax. It's not exclusively, but disproportionately. And so they take your tax money, you have to work about half of the year to pay to be able to pay tax. And then they use your tax money to set up government programs aimed at discriminating against you. So to fund government programs that pushes you out, like to fund this process, to change the constit, to empower the state to confiscate private property and so forth. So your tax money is literally used against you. And then also your tax money isn't, isn't going to the basic things that the government is supposed to be doing, like keeping you safe, protecting your property rights and protecting your basic freedoms. So after having paid taxes, you have to spend the money that is left or a significant part of it to do the things that the government was supposed to be doing. So you have to hire private security because the police aren't keeping you safe. And you need to implement certain measures to protect your property and you need to be involved with civil society or institutions to make sure that your rights are protected and so forth. So it's just another phenomenon of just how skewed and how unsustainable things have.

[Host]

Have become that's really concerning because you're a ninth generation South African, you don't even feel safe living there.

[Ernst]

Yeah, yeah. I mean my great, great grandfather who came to South Africa, the first roots of whom I descend directly was we, we've counted. He was older than George Washington. He lived around the same time.

[Host]

Oh wow.

[Ernst]

And he went to, he, well, went to South Africa more or less the time when George Washington was a teenager. So before the United States was a country, my family was already in South Africa and, and now we're at the point where you still get accused of being a foreigner and you get told.

[Host]

To, you've been there longer than some people there.

[Ernst]

Yeah, of course, absolutely. And you get told to go back to Europe. I mean, Europe is not my home country. Africa is my continent and South Africa is my home country. And to be in a situation where you are so vehemently targeted by the government is very concerning. And as I said, it's not sustainable. There's going to be some form of change because some people would leave the country and a lot of people have, but a lot of people are just going to stay and it's going to end up in a way that certainly is not going to be good for those who are in power. At the moment, we just need to make sure that it's not bad for the rest of the country as well when things change.

[Host]

Wow. How outnumbered are whites to blacks in South Africa?

[Ernst]

So white people in South Africa are I think around 8% of the population. Eight might be seven. Okay, 7 or 8% of the population.

[Host]

12 to 1.

[Ernst]

Yeah. Well, black South Africans are about 80%. And then the rest is Indian and Indian community. We have some other Asian communities, Chinese and so forth. And what we call the colored community in some countries they call it mixed race, but we call it colored. Or it's. It's an African speaking community that are, you could say of mixed race. It's also very distinct how they have their own culture and sort of unique approach to the things. So that's more or less. But I think what's important about this is to understand that South Africa is very diverse and complex in the sense that even looking at the racial dynamics doesn't give you a proper understanding of the complexity of the country. Because there are different nations within the different racial groups. And so those in power would like us to believe that dynamics in South Africa is simply white people and black people. But it's more complex than that. So within the white community, you predominantly have the Afrikaners, the Afrikaans speaking white South Africans or the Boers. And you have the Anglos, the English speaking South Africans. You have others as well. You have a German community and so forth. We have a Jewish community. And then within the black section of society, it's by no means homogenous. We have Zulus and Khosas and Sutus and Peris and Tsongas and Vendas and all these different communities with different cultures, different languages. And that's part of the problem. And so all of these nations living within South Africa are just governed by one central government. It's very much the equivalent of Europe. It's saying that the only thing that Europe needs is a European Union and the different nations within Europe should dissolve because they just need one big central government in Brussels. That's the dynamic in South Africa. It's the equivalent of that. And the solution that we are pushing for is, if we compare that to Europe, is to say that just having one big European Union is not going to fix Europe. Europe needs a recognition of the different nations and peoples living there with different cultures, languages and so forth. And the solution for Europe is autonomy for the different peoples, the different nations living in Europe. And I think the same should be applied to South Africa. The different nations and peoples living in the territory of South Africa should have more autonomy, because currently, no, none of them have autonomy. It's just. Just a central government openly boasting about being a nationalist socialist movement.

[Host]

Wow, it's crazy, scary times.

[Ernst]

Yeah.

[Host]

You mentioned mob violence earlier. Is there organized crime in.

[Ernst]

Organized crime is a problem in South Africa. So because of this, the fact that people have lost faith in the system, what we are seeing is a vacuum developing in South Africa, a political vacuum in the sense that, firstly, people are just losing faith in the government. They're losing faith in political leaders in general. People. People vote in high numbers still, but they vote reluctantly. So they would look at all the parties and say, well, this one looks to me to be the least bad, so I'll vote for this one. But they vote because they want to get the ANC out of power. The ruling party. But the ruling party, even though they've lost a lot of support in the last election, they still win the election. And so the problem with this vacuum that's being created is vacuums want to be filled. They tend to be filled. And so the vacuum in South Africa is. Is filled by bad actors. It can be filled by bad actors or good actors. And the bad actors are gangs, mobs, organized crime, different mafias that we have who have in some ways become an authority onto their own, that the government or the police isn't even trying to interfere or intervene. They're just too scared of them. So we have that. And then the good actors is just communities being better organized, being well organized, where they are making sure that they keep their own communities safe, they keep their property safe, they protect each other, they have their own institutions. If there are problems with the government, schools or universities, they build their own. And so you can fill the void by being constructive, or you can do nothing about the void and just see how it eventually gets filled by bad actors. That makes life worse for everyone.

[Host]

What's the biggest group of organized crime out there?

[Ernst]

There are many different gangs in South Africa. The 28 gang and the 26 gang. A lot of them have. Are prison gangs have something to do with prison activities, especially more in the South. And then there are different forms of mafias. So one that is quite significant is the construction mafia.

[Host]

Construction.

[Ernst]

So what the construction mafia does is, and it's just a reality that you can't ignore anymore is, let's say you build a shopping mall then, or some big complex or something. Then the construction mafia shows up, usually with an expensive car, and they say, well, we see that you are building this property. And you need to employ our people. You need to use these service providers and so forth. If you don't do this, we're going to vandalize your property. We're going to make sure that you're not able to build this.

[Host]

Wow.

[Ernst]

If you don't use us, the project isn't going to get completed. So that's one example. And they have immense power and the police are largely powerless against them. And it's gotten to the point where big construction companies just need to have teams on how to deal with the mafia, otherwise you don't get your project built. It's crazy.

[Host]

Yeah, it's really like the old Italian mafia days.

[Ernst]

Yeah, it's very comparable to that. Yes.

[Host]

Wow.

[Ernst]

I mean, there are other forms of organized crimes, like. Like criminals. Vehicle theft is a big thing with syndicates stealing vehicles, taking them outside of the country and so forth. Big underground networks. Cigarette, tobacco. The tobacco black market is a vast network of. Of. Of organized crime. And there are some politicians connected to that. People bringing tobacco illegally from over the border. And there are many, many such examples of these networks of organized crime operating in South Africa. And the police are just not able to do anything about it.

[Host]

So you have to roll with security everywhere then, huh?

[Ernst]

Yeah, we, we, we. Yeah, we do. So you can count in South Africa, if you count up the total number of the army we spoke of, that isn't very efficient. And the police force, it isn't very efficient either. You count them together. So the police and the army combined, you then have to multiply it by two. And private security in South Africa is still bigger than that.

[Host]

Wow.

[Ernst]

The private security is more than twice the police and the army combined.

[Host]

That's crazy.

[Ernst]

Yeah. And that's because if you don't have private security, you have no security. And so in a certain sense, that's why I mentioned on the interview with Tucker as well, that I think the threat of mob violence is bigger than the threat of some form of a government clampdown. Because the government doesn't really have the power to do a lot of these radical things that they want to do. But what they are doing is inciting the mob, inciting people to commit crime, or what politicians are doing. If it's not the government, it's politicians scapegoating, blaming especially the white farmers for everything that is wrong with the country, saying that every hardship that you experience has nothing to do with you. Everything should be blamed on those people over there. And so that is a serious threat.

[Host]

Yeah. And the government's Too afraid to arrest some of these people.

[Ernst]

Yeah. Because some of these people are involved with the government. So. So it's very. It's very alarming. And again, just pointing back to the fact that it's not sustainable. There's going to. Something's going to happen. It's going to reach some form of a boiling point.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ernst]

And that's again, why it's so important for countries that were involved in creating this mess to be involved in solving this.

[Host]

When did you write the book? Where can people find the book?

[Ernst]

The book is on Amazon. It was published in 2018. And it's especially about the farm killings. I grew up in an agricultural community in South Africa, in the. Up in the north of South Africa. And I mentioned this in the preface, that growing up I knew people who were attacked on farms. It was. Was a harsh reality, you know, living in a agricultural community and knowing people who get attacked and people who have. Get killed during these attacks. And so I became an activist, firstly primarily against the farm killings since 2012. Now my focus is still on that, but my focus is now a bit more sort of macro in the sense that we need to move towards a more sustainable political system for South Africa. If we don't do that, the farm killings is a symptom of the problem. It's not the problem, it's a consequence of the problem. And the problem is. Has to do with the way South Africa is structured at the moment.

[Host]

Amazing. We'll link the book in the description. Anything else you want to close off with?

[Ernst]

No. Well, I think if people watching this feel that they want to help. We've gotten a lot of emails and messages recently with people saying, how can I help? Especially people abroad. So we set up this pioneer initiative. Maybe if you can put the link also in the description, people who want to contribute in some way that would really have. That really helps. It's an initiative set up at working towards more macro solutions and also empowering us while doing this to do research on what South Africa might look like. What are the worst case potential outcomes and how can we prevent that? What are the good case outcomes and what can we do to move toward that, but then also to empower us to, for example, come to the US to speak to people like you, to speak to podcasts. To speak is to raise more international awareness, speak at conferences and so forth. So any support that we can get would really be appreciated.

[Host]

Yeah. We'll link it below. Thanks for coming on, Ernst. That was fun.

[Ernst]

Thank you very much for having me.

[Host]

Check them out, guys, and I'll see you next time.