← Digital Social Hour
Digital Social Hour
The Shocking Truth About Mob Life in Vegas | Anthony Ruggiano DSH #1168
00:58:01
🎲 Get ready to uncover the shocking truth about mob life in Vegas! In this gripping episode of the Digital Social Hour, Sean Kelly sits down with Anthony, a former insider, to explore mind-blowing stories about the mob's control over Sin City, the...
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- [00:01]
Navy Recruiter
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- [00:31]
Mandy
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- [01:01]
Anthony Ruggiano
Looks at the lawyer and he tells the lawyer before we. Now it's time to talk money. He tells the lawyer, got a razor blade on you? Looks at him, why? What do I need a razor blade for? He said, because all we got left is blood. Take our blood, we have no more money. All I got left is my is blood. But he. So he took a lot less.
- [01:27]
Host
All right, guys, we got Anthony back on the show. Hasn't been to Vegas. And you said what, 30 years?
- [01:32]
Anthony Ruggiano
40. I haven't been to Vegas since 1977. October of 1977, dude.
- [01:38]
Host
So there's a lot of new buildings and stuff out there.
- [01:40]
Anthony Ruggiano
Oh my God. You know, I was at Caesar's palace yesterday or yesterday. And when I. So let me tell you how I got to Vegas. So I got married October 2nd in New York. And Anil Delacroche, who was the underboss of the Gambino family, was in prison at the time. But another maid member, Joe the Cat, had a travel agent and Neil's present to me was my honeymoon in Vegas. So he sent me. I'm 24 years old. So he sent me to Vegas and it was Caesar's Palace. And when I got in there, I was treated like, forget. Right this way, Mr. Ruggiano. Because they knew. Because. Because back then Vegas was all mobbed.
- [02:20]
Host
Yeah.
- [02:21]
Anthony Ruggiano
And across the street from from Caesars was just like a little strip mall. Not as beautiful buildings and it's just completely totally different.
- [02:29]
Host
Yeah. When did the mob get ran out of Vegas? Do you know what time frame?
- [02:33]
Anthony Ruggiano
I would say sometime in the 80s. While I was there in 77, they had it on lockdown. I mean, I was treated like O'Neal sent me there. The guys. The people in Caesar's house knew I was coming. They were waiting for me. I had a big suite. I had a credit line of, like, $2,000 in the casino, which was a ton of money back then.
- [02:50]
Host
Yeah.
- [02:50]
Anthony Ruggiano
And everywhere I went, I went, all the shows, I got right in. I never. I had no issues. I would say the 80s, you know, around in the. Going into the 80s, and then by the 90s, they were gone. And now. Now it's. They're totally out of it.
- [03:06]
Host
I heard some might be on the old strip, the downtown one, but I don't know.
- [03:10]
Anthony Ruggiano
I don't know. I don't. You know, listen, the mob is never going to go away. Then we're going to go. I mean, it was built with Teamster money. We all know that. You know, Tony Provenzano, I actually met him once on a. I was getting transferred out of Green Haven, and he was getting transferred out of Green Haven, and when the. When the correction officer put me on the bus, the prison bus, he was there, and he saw me. We didn't know each other, but he must have known Italian. And I sat down next to him, and I told him I was fighting Andy's son, and he heard. You know, he knew my old man. He goes, oh, how is he? And ba, ba, ba. And we had a conversation, and I was dying to ask him about Hoffa, you know, like. Yeah, it was, like, on the tip of my tongue, but, you know, I just couldn't do it, and. And he. I had. I was getting transferred to this place, Arthur Kill in Staten island, and he. He was on the bus with me the whole way. He was. I forgot where they were sending him, but I was dying to ask him, because that's how this place was built. I mean, that's a fact. I mean, it was all. All Teamster money. I mean, the movie casino pretty much had. That's how it was.
- [04:11]
Host
I mean, it was pretty accurate.
- [04:12]
Anthony Ruggiano
That was pretty.
- [04:13]
Host
That's a good movie.
- [04:14]
Anthony Ruggiano
Without a doubt. That would. That was definitely accurate. I mean, for sure.
- [04:19]
Host
Is there anyone alive right now that knows where Hoffa is, you think.
- [04:23]
Anthony Ruggiano
You know, that's a good. Somebody asked me that about two weeks ago. I don't think so. I think they're all. I think they're all gone. Damn. You know, they're all gone. And if they are alive, they got to be, like, close to 100.
- [04:33]
Host
Yeah.
- [04:33]
Anthony Ruggiano
You know, just people that think they know or, you know, like, somebody told me this. And so, like the movie the Irishman, that was. I mean, some of that was true. I mean, I knew. I actually knew the Russell Buffalo, the guy that Joe Pesky played. Yeah, he was actually good friends with my family, my father and his partner, and we used to go to his Christmas show. He had a Christmas show every year, a Christmas party in Pittston every year. And the last time I went to his Christmas party, Tony Bennett sang at the Christmas party. He was the first per. And I, when I got married in 77, he was actually the first person to come to my wedding in Brooklyn. He was the first person to show up. He was in on all that, you know, with the Hoffa, with the Vegas and all that. But that movie, the Irishman, he. The part that Dinero played, he wasn't involved like that. That. That, you know, that's just stuff he made up or what. I don't believe that he was involved in it. I don't think anybody knows where he is. My personal opinion is they dissolved his body. I don't think. I don't think he's buried anywhere. My old man. That's what he used to tell me. They probably dissolved it because it's funny, because Russell, you know, Russell Bufalino, the guy that's in the movie that Pesky played, we went to his Christmas party, like I said, every year. And he had a factory that we toured with him, me, my father, and a bunch of us. And it was like a chemical factory, and there was these big vats of chemicals and teasingly, my Attention, taxpayers. The IRS is intensifying collections in 2025. If you owe $10,000 or more or have unfiled tax returns, it's time to take action. Tax Network USA's experienced lawyers have saved clients over a billion dollars. They're ready to negotiate with the IRS on your behalf.
- [06:18]
Host
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- [06:18]
Anthony Ruggiano
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- [06:32]
Navy Recruiter
But you're kind of acting like one. You used to crush it in school, outsmarting opponents on the field. And now, well, you're still smart, but not exactly challenging yourself. You could be advancing new nuclear engineering in the world's most powerful Navy. You were born for it, so make the smart choice. You can be smart or you can be nuke smart. Become a nuclear engineer@navy.com nukesmart America's Navy. Forged by the sea.
- [07:00]
Anthony Ruggiano
Father Fat Andy. We're walking through the. The warehouse and we passed the vats. And my old man turns around and tells him, how many people did you throw in that vat? It was like a joke, you know, like a mob joke. So, you know, maybe Hoffa went into that. Who knows? It could. Very possible.
- [07:18]
Host
Definitely possible. Man. Irishman. That was a decent one. It was a bit slow.
- [07:22]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah.
- [07:22]
Host
You know, that movie was long.
- [07:23]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah.
- [07:24]
Host
Do they consult with mafia guys when they're making movies like that?
- [07:28]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, you know, they're consultants like. Like for Casino. Yeah, they guys, not guys that are in. Like guys like me that cooperated, you know, that aren't. That aren't in it, but know about it. Yeah, they'll bring us in as consultants or like Sammy the Bulls working on something. I might be a consultant on that. Definitely. Yeah.
- [07:47]
Host
He's making a show.
- [07:48]
Anthony Ruggiano
Right. And like, but a lot of the actors too. You know, people don't realize, like, a lot of actors grew up in neighborhoods that were run by the mob, like De Niro, Pesky. These guys grew up around wise guys. So they know how to portray them because they saw them from. From when they were kids. Scorsese grew up in downtown Manhattan. I mean, there was a. A mob club on every corner.
- [08:09]
Host
Yeah.
- [08:09]
Anthony Ruggiano
So Def and Sopranos. Mob guys would definitely talk to for that because that. That was pretty much had. They had everything down pattern. The Sopranos, without a doubt.
- [08:19]
Host
So that show was really accurate. Sopranos.
- [08:21]
Anthony Ruggiano
Outside of him seeing a psychologist. The mob doesn't deal like that. You want me to tell you how the mob deals with psychiatric issues?
- [08:30]
Host
They kill you. Right.
- [08:31]
Anthony Ruggiano
There was a guy named Vito Guzzo. He was a made member of the Colombo family. He was good friends with my father back in the day, in the seventies. He actually had. He probably was bipolar, but nobody knew what that was. And he actually had a breakdown, a nervous breakdown, and he went into a psych ward.
- [08:49]
Host
Damn.
- [08:50]
Anthony Ruggiano
And he came out and he was okay. And then he had another one. The second one, he went back into the psych ward. Now this is. This, this. This is like the early 80s. He got out the second time and he disappeared.
- [09:04]
Host
Wow.
- [09:04]
Anthony Ruggiano
So that's how the mob dealt with people that had psychiatric issues. So the Sopranos were real outside of that. I mean, no mob boss is going to see a psychiatrist or a therapist. It's not going to happen.
- [09:18]
Host
Which is pretty crazy. Because I'd imagine a lot of mob guys have a ton of trauma from what they're witnessing, and they can't even express it right. You got to keep a straight face.
- [09:25]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, without a doubt. Yeah. You know, not even take. You know, if you take them Prozac, you better not tell them. Yeah, yeah. And even the kids. Listen. The kids. My. My daughter is traumatized. My daughter, she's a therapist. When my daughter was a kid, she was about 8 years old, I was in prison, and she found a box, a cardboard box in the basement with newspaper articles in it. And she was read. You know, she was eight. She knew how to read. And she started reading the newspaper articles, and they were about murders, like my father's murders, the murder I was involved in. So she's reading these articles about her loving grandfather and her father involved in murders, and she didn't even know how to process it. She didn't even know how to talk to anybody about it. Now, in her late 20s, she's processing it. Now she's the kids in therapy.
- [10:14]
Host
Wow.
- [10:15]
Anthony Ruggiano
Because she, you know, her grandfather, my father, was so affectionate. And to think that he did crimes like that. Like, she's. The kids traumatized.
- [10:23]
Host
Yeah. So your father was living two lives, right?
- [10:26]
Anthony Ruggiano
Without a doubt. You know, I did a podcast yesterday, and they asked me to explain to them my father. My father. So I told him my father at home never reprimanded me, and I was a bit. I was a truant. I was playing hooky. And he. He never had a father. His father died when he was 8 years old in 1932. So he never had a father to reprimand him. So he never reprimanded us. He was an affectionate father. He took me to baseball games, taught me how to play baseball. You know, what fathers do. He was a good son. He was a good brother, a good uncle. But in the street, he was a gangster. He was a killer. But at home, he was like a teddy bear, you know, and he was like a pushover at home.
- [11:04]
Host
That's crazy.
- [11:05]
Anthony Ruggiano
Two different people.
- [11:06]
Host
Yeah.
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Anthony Ruggiano
But when he walked out of the house, he was fat Andy. But when he was in the house, he was, you know. Da.
- [11:12]
Host
Yeah. So what age did you start realizing, wow, what is going on here?
- [11:16]
Anthony Ruggiano
I didn't know. I always knew something was up, you know, I just didn't know why. When I was a little kid, I knew that things were different. I knew that when I walked in a room with him, the air, you know, the atmosphere changed. But I didn't know why. When I was like, 13 years old and I drifted off my block, I found out about the mob stuff through the older guys in the neighborhood. They would point to me and say, that's Fat Andy's son. That's Fat Andy's son. And that's when I started learning about it. And then me and him started talking about it, and he took me around and introduced me to people. Now, my kid brother, he found out about it through the newspaper. So my father had gotten indicted in Brooklyn on this. They bugged this trailer, and he got caught on some tapes, and he got indicted. And it was on the front page of the newspaper. So when I came home one day, my brother said, is that true what they said about Daddy? It's in the newspaper. And I go, yeah. And he had a baseball game that night, and my father went to all his baseball games. So when I went upstairs, my father said to me, does Albert. Did Albert read the newspaper? And I said, yeah. So now we went back downstairs, and my father looked at my brother and he says, you read the newspaper? And my brother said, yeah. My brother was about 11.
- [12:29]
Host
Damn.
- [12:30]
Anthony Ruggiano
And my brother said, yeah. And he goes, you still want me to come to the baseball game with you? And my brother said, of course I want you to come to the baseball game. So we all get in the car, the three of us, we get in the car, we go to the baseball game. Now, none of the fathers knew my old man was a wise guy. They just thought he was like Andy, you know, a baseball. You know, father, you know, kid. So nobody knew. We pulled up at the baseball game, the Little League game, and they mobbed him. The fathers came, run off the stand, man, we didn't know, you know, they were like, up his ass. They mobbed him to the point where they actually, later on, they asked him for favors. And he got a couple of their sons later on in years in, like, the carpenter's union, the electrical union. Union.
- [13:10]
Host
Wow.
- [13:10]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah. So. But that. That's how me and my brother found out about him. Yeah.
- [13:15]
Host
That's.
- [13:15]
Anthony Ruggiano
Wow, crazy.
- [13:16]
Host
You said they. They bugged his rv. Did you have methods for detecting bugs and stuff?
- [13:20]
Anthony Ruggiano
You know, they. They. They bugged his house. Not really. They did. My father. We never. We people did, but we never did. We never checked around. My father had a house in Florida. They had. They had the kitchen bug. He used to like to cook.
- [13:35]
Host
Yeah.
- [13:35]
Anthony Ruggiano
And he used to talk to guys in the kitchen. They put a bug in the kitchen light. When he went on trial, they had his meatball recipe on the bug. He was telling an undercover FBI agent in the kitchen how to make meatballs. We didn't know the guy was an FBI agent. And he's in the kitchen telling the FBI agent how to make meatballs while they're discussing a crime. So when they played the tape in between him discussing a crime, you heard his meatball recipe. That was. That was. Everybody got a kick out of that.
- [14:04]
Host
That's hilarious. Was the undercover part of the mob or he was just.
- [14:07]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah. So what happened was there was this guy, Joe Dogs. It was in Florida. There was this guy, Joe Ianuzi, but his nickname was Joe Dogs. He was an informant, and he was bringing FBI agents to my father. And my father was loaned shylocking them, which is loaned in their money for. And that's how he got caught up in it. Then they opened up. They opened up an after hour, like a gambling club in Riviera beach up in Florida. And my father's had an office in there. And when he turned on the light, the camera went on. So anything that went on in the office, they filmed. And so they used to come and give him envelopes in the like. And make sure they handed him the envelope so the camera would catch them.
- [14:48]
Host
Wow.
- [14:48]
Anthony Ruggiano
Handed him the envelope.
- [14:50]
Host
So they had a lot of evidence on him.
- [14:51]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, yeah, they had. But you know what? He got two hung juries. The first hung. Well, the second hung jury he got. Because we fixed the jury. I paid one of the jurors 25,000, and he got a hung jury. It was some guy comes to me and says, listen, my neighbor's on your father's jury. And I said, could we do anything? And he goes, I'll ask him. And then he came back and he said, the guy wants 25,000. So I gave him 20.
- [15:13]
Host
And that's a lot back then, right?
- [15:14]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, yeah, that's a real. That was 1985. That was a lot. So he got two hung juries, and then the third time he got convicted. But yeah, they had a lot of that. An informant. And then they had all the tapes, the bugs, the films.
- [15:26]
Host
Did you find out who the informant was or.
- [15:28]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, yeah. You had to testify. Yeah. You had a test. He even wrote a book later on called something a mobster Life of a Mobster or some. Something.
- [15:36]
Host
Wow.
- [15:37]
Anthony Ruggiano
That would. All surveillance pictures in and of my father, my uncle.
- [15:40]
Host
How shocked were you guys with that informant?
- [15:43]
Anthony Ruggiano
We. Well, when. When. When we found out who it was. Yeah, it was a surprise because he was like, he was a good guy, you Know he was, knew everybody. He was a tough guy, you know, he was a. He was an arena. But what happened was he got a beaten by a wise guy and he lived. And he made a deal with the government in, in the hospital. And nobody knew. When he got out of the hospital, he apologized to the guy, this guy Tommy A. And Tommy A like sort of took him back. And then what happened was Tommy A had been. Back then, bingo was big in Florida. Like $50,000 jackpots. It was a big form of gambling. So there was a beef going on with another, with another crew of wise guys. And my father knew them. And my father was asked to help Tommy straighten out this beef. So my father helped him, he straightened it out. And then Tommy tells my father, could you service my guys while I'm in New York? So my father goes, of course. And one of them was Joe Dogs. And that's how my father got swept up in this RICO act. And then Joe Dawk said, listen, I got some guys that want to borrow some money. They're from Chicago, you know, Let me introduce you to them. And he brought this guy there, he was an FBI agent undercover. And then they brought another FBI agent and my father and this guy. Salary I will shylock of money to them.
- [17:03]
Host
Damn.
- [17:04]
Anthony Ruggiano
And then my father wind up getting 40 years.
- [17:06]
Host
Yeah, that RICO made it too easy for them to lock people up.
- [17:10]
Anthony Ruggiano
I got indicted myself for four ricos.
- [17:12]
Host
Jeez.
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Anthony Ruggiano
Two state. I've covered all the bases. I got indicted for two state ricos and two federal rico's.
- [17:19]
Host
That is nuts. I didn't know there were state rico's.
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Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, you call it an orca.
- [17:23]
Host
I wonder what their win percent on Rico's is. It's got to be super high.
- [17:27]
Anthony Ruggiano
That's 90% she.
- [17:29]
Host
So you knew, you know, you're screwed.
- [17:31]
Anthony Ruggiano
I mean, I never went to trial with the feds. I went to trial once with the state, I got convicted. But I know every time, the two, two times I got a lock, I got locked up by the feds. I took pleas both times.
- [17:43]
Host
Yeah, because it's too, first of all, it's too expensive, right, to fight that expensive. Second of all, the stress expensive.
- [17:49]
Anthony Ruggiano
My father went for everything. The third trial, it was funny because the first trial was we went for hundreds of thousands. The second trial, the same thing, but we fixed the jury. The third trial, we're in the restaurant. My father's partner, Tony Lee, he was a made member of the, of the mob. Myself and this lawyer called Mark Krasnow, he was my father's attorney is the third trial and was sitting in the restaurant, and he was a character, Tony Lee. And he looked. And he looks at the lawyer and he tells the lawyer before we. Now it's time to talk money. He tells the lawyer, got a razor blade on you? The lawyer looks at him and goes, why? What do I need a razor blade for? He said, because all we got left is blood. Take our blood. We have no more money. All I got left is my. Is blood. But he. So he took a lot less for the. He said, all I got left is blood. Take my blood.
- [18:38]
Host
Jeez. I mean, they bleed you dry, right? They got unlimited.
- [18:41]
Anthony Ruggiano
They have no conscience.
- [18:42]
Host
I mean, they got unlimited resources.
- [18:44]
Anthony Ruggiano
Mob lawyers have. They're criminals. Mob lawyers are criminals. Mob lawyers are criminals. They actually tell you how to lie. They tell you how to. They're criminals, and they take you. They have no qualms about money. You know, you got to pay them. But stay, you have to pay them, and that's it. And they throw figures at you like.
- [19:05]
Host
Well, a lot of lawyers, not even just mob lawyers, behind the scenes, they're working out deals with other size lawyers without you even knowing about it.
- [19:11]
Anthony Ruggiano
But mob lawyers are. And mob lawyers are different than other lawyers because we're all mob guys. We're all guilty, you know, like. Like when we get indicted, we're guilty, you know, and they know it. And they. And they. They like Bruce Cutler. He was John Gotti's lawyer. He thought he was a wise guy. Like, he kissed you on the cheek. He hung out in the club. He dressed like us. He acted.
- [19:33]
Host
He liked attention.
- [19:34]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, he loved it. He loved it. He loved it. He used to say, you know, I love the man. I love the man. I had lawyers tell me when we had a case going on and we needed a postponement because we had to put some stuff together and we needed a postponement. And the lawyer tells us, this guy Ronnie Rubenstein tells us in his office, well, listen, if one of yous went into the hospital, we could get this case postponed. So, like, he told us what to do. So the next day, this kid Louie that hung out with us, we faked a crash on Conduit Boulevard. He crashed an old car into a pole, and he went to the hospital, and we got a postponement, you know, wow. But we got that idea from the attorney. He told us what to do. Like, if one of you is going to hospital, we could get a postponement. So one of us went into the hospital.
- [20:26]
Host
Yeah, there's a Lot of things you could do to delay, right? I'm sure you guys wanted to delay as much as possible.
- [20:30]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, we needed a delay because we. We were going to go on trial and we needed to put. We needed to get some witnesses, we need. We needed to do some stuff and we needed some time and they, and they, the. The D. A. Wanted us to go to trial right away. So we needed some space and we. That was the best way to get it. So. Yeah, so he went into the hospital, we got a postponement, and. And we lost anyway. We got found guilty anyway.
- [20:55]
Host
But you tried at least.
- [20:57]
Anthony Ruggiano
Anyway, we went down fighting.
- [20:59]
Host
Did you get a reduced sentence or.
- [21:00]
Anthony Ruggiano
No, no, no. I always got. When I went away, I always got the most time because I was fat Andy's son, I got the most time. I went to the worst jails. Like I went away on a case with three guys, this guy Frankie and Sal. So we went to get designated to the jails. We all, now, we all got convicted for the same crime. They went to Camp Adirondack's camp. And the jail I went to was nicknamed Gladiator School. I went to Comstock, I went to a penitentiary that was nicknamed Gladiator School for the same crime. The same crime. So I always got screwed.
- [21:34]
Host
Is that cause they consider you high risk?
- [21:36]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah. And because I was a wise guy, you know, my father's reputation, you know, he was a violent criminal and he was hooked, you know, high ranking member of the mob. And they just sent me to the worst. And I always got what they called CMC papers, that central monitoring case. And so every movement I made had to get approved in Albany. So in other ways, a regular inmate, the facility could approve you for things like furloughs or work, whatever, whatever thing programs they have available. The facility could movement any kind of movement to another prison. The facility could do that with a cmc it had to come from Albany. And I was always cmc Always got CMC papers, always. And even in the feds. The feds, you have a number and the last three digits of your number. So every state has like a code. Like I think New York is, oh, 53 or, oh, 58 or something. But oh, 16 is like organized crime. Like when you have an O16 number, all your movements have to get approved by Washington.
- [22:41]
Host
Mm, Washington D.C. yeah.
- [22:43]
Anthony Ruggiano
Wow. Yeah. So I had. I had an 016 number because, you know, I was. And so my father passed. Unfortunately, my father passed away when I was in federal prison. So I had to get Approved. So I got approved. First the counselor approved me. Then once when the council approved me, it goes to the warden.
- [23:02]
Host
Yeah.
- [23:03]
Anthony Ruggiano
And if the warden approves a regular inmate, you could go out, they'll make arrangements to take you to the funeral oven, immediate family member. But because I was 016, an organized crime, when the warden approved me, his approval had to go to Washington. And when it got to Washington, they denied me.
- [23:21]
Host
Whoa.
- [23:22]
Anthony Ruggiano
And I. They wouldn't let me go to my father's funeral.
- [23:24]
Host
That's nice to man your own father's funeral.
- [23:26]
Anthony Ruggiano
John Gotti Jr. Couldn't go to his father's funeral. Both of us, they both refused to let us go to our father's funeral. You know, I don't even think, when I think of it, I don't think John. Because John knew I got denied. I don't even think he requested to go to his father's funeral because he knew they would never let him go.
- [23:41]
Host
Wow, that's messed up, man. It's not like you're going to do anything while you're at the funeral.
- [23:45]
Anthony Ruggiano
Listen, I told the warden, you could have loaned me your car and I would came back tonight and you know, he says, I know, but unfortunately, you know, your organized crime, it has to go to Washington. And some bureaucrat in Washington said no. Even when I was in the witness protection program. So I'm in the witness protection program. They put me in this town called Coeur d'alene, Idaho. Yeah, Idaho, actually.
- [24:04]
Host
That town blew up now.
- [24:05]
Anthony Ruggiano
Beautiful.
- [24:06]
Host
Wow.
- [24:06]
Anthony Ruggiano
Beautiful. So now I'm living in Coeur d'alene, Idaho. And it's nice, high end neighborhood. Beautiful, right? I'm there about six months now. My handler loved me because I. I didn't give him no problems. I. I didn't, you know, he gave me so much money a month and I wasn't drinking or you, you know, I don't use. I'm in recovery. I wasn't gambling. I wasn't doing anything. I was just living a normal life out there. So my handler, he loved me. This guy, he used to tell me, you're the best guy on my caseload. So one day he comes to see me and he goes, and he's upset. He goes, oh, man, you know, I feel so bad. What's the matter? He goes, I gotta move you. I said, you gotta move me? Where you gonna move me? He goes, I gotta move you into Washington state. It's the next state over to the Tri Cities. I said, the Tri Cities, that's the hood. He goes, he Goes, yeah. He goes, listen, we have a new supervisor. And when he looked over everything, he wanted to know why we had you living in Coeur d'alene, Idaho. He didn't want me to supervisor. He was worried I was going to, you know, take advantage of the rich people that lived in and this. So I should say, rather me go live in the hood so I could kill some gang banger that's going to bother the media. Right. And they moved me from Coeur d'alene, Idaho, to the Tri Cities. It was like going from Park Avenue to Alphabet City.
- [25:17]
Host
Yeah.
- [25:18]
Anthony Ruggiano
You know what I mean? And I. And then I signed myself out. I stood there a couple of months, and I signed myself out. Yeah.
- [25:23]
Host
Coeur d'alene is beautiful. The real estate market, my God. Wow.
- [25:26]
Anthony Ruggiano
When I got off the plane, I got off the plane in Spokane, Washington, and the marshals waiting for me. And he goes. I said, where am I going? He says, well, you're not staying in Spokane. I'm taking. Because. Right. Like, Coeur D'Alene is like 30 minutes outside of Spokane, Washington. He goes, I'm taking you to Idaho. I said, idaho? I, you know, thought potatoes, you know, Idaho. I said, what, to a potato farm? He goes, no, man, I'm taking you to paradise. He told me. I said, paradise, all right? And he took me there, man, it was beautiful when I got there. So now I'm in Idaho. Imagine me in Idaho, and I have this beautiful apartment, and there's a mountain lake, and there was a trail around it. So I'm there a couple of days, and I'm up on this mountain, and I'm walking this trail in this mountain lake, and I smell this sweet smell. Like I'm going, what's that smell? You know? I go, oh, my God, that must be fresh air. Like, I smell fresh air for the first time. So I got off the mountain and I had, like a. I had a phone that I wasn't supposed to have, and I called my friend Stevie up in the Bronx, and I said, I just smell fresh air for the first time.
- [26:31]
Host
Yeah, because you were locked up for years.
- [26:33]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, living in New York, you ain't smelling no fresh air. You know what I mean? Yeah. Smelling that guy, you could actually smell the air. Like, smell different. But, you know, what happened? This. You know, have you been there?
- [26:43]
Host
Nah, I haven't.
- [26:44]
Anthony Ruggiano
There's crazy palm, pine trees, like major, major pine trees. And I lost my voice. I thought I was dying. I thought I had throat cancer. I lost my voice. And they took me to a doctor and I had some kind of allergic reaction to the pine pollen because I never really was around that kind of pollen. You know, in New York there's not many pine trees, except on Christmas time.
- [27:05]
Host
Right.
- [27:05]
Anthony Ruggiano
You know, and, and I, and, and, and I lost my voice from the nasal drip. I had to go on all kinds of medication, but I loved it there. And the girls, they were throwing themselves at me. Accent, Forget about.
- [27:15]
Host
I love him.
- [27:16]
Anthony Ruggiano
Forget about it. It was crazy.
- [27:17]
Host
You're living good out there.
- [27:18]
Anthony Ruggiano
I was living good. I met a. I met a Apache girl. A hunch. She was 100% Apache Indian.
- [27:24]
Host
Whoa.
- [27:24]
Anthony Ruggiano
She was beautiful. I met her at an AA meeting. So I used to go to this AA clubhouse every day at 5:30. And they used to love to hear me talk. So when I raised my hand to share, like every. They loved it. So I'm outside this meeting and this. I knew she was Indian, you know, someone told me she's 100%. There was a lot of Apache Indians up there. And she walks up to me outside. We're outside after the meeting, she walks up to me and she said, so when are you gonna ask me out on a date? Wow. She goes, I see you checking me out at all the meetings. And we started seeing each other until they moved me to Washington state. So I, I mean, I liked it there. I liked it there.
- [27:57]
Host
Did you tell her you were leaving or not?
- [27:59]
Anthony Ruggiano
When they moved me to Washington state, I told her because everybody thought I was working. They didn't know I was on a witness protection program because they had it all hooked up. They had it. I actually had business cards to like a construction.
- [28:11]
Host
Wow.
- [28:11]
Anthony Ruggiano
And if. And if you wanted to reach me at work, they would, the marshall would put you through to my cell phone. Like you would call this. Because they had it all set up.
- [28:19]
Host
Yeah.
- [28:20]
Anthony Ruggiano
So that I had like a good cover. And so I just told her they were moving me on to another job and I was going to be in Washington state. And we tried to stay in touch, but we lost. Damn.
- [28:31]
Host
So were you looking over your shoulder when you were in witness protection, or were you?
- [28:34]
Anthony Ruggiano
Oh, I never really looked over my shoulder. I just was caught in kind of like. Just careful, you know?
- [28:39]
Host
Yeah.
- [28:40]
Anthony Ruggiano
I never really looked over my shoulder. I just didn't like, go back to my neighborhood. I didn't want to put it in their face. But in the beginning, I was more careful than now. Now, like, everybody knows where I am. I'm at. Everybody knows. I revealed who my real. Like when I Moved to Florida. Nobody knew who I was until I started doing. I did a show on National Geographic and I revealed who I was. So then, now everybody. Now nobody knows what to call me. They tease me because they used to call me Joe.
- [29:05]
Host
Yeah.
- [29:05]
Anthony Ruggiano
Because my middle name is Joseph, so I went by Joseph. Now they asked me, what should we call you? Anthony? Joseph. Whatever you feel comfortable. I tell them. So some people still call me Joe.
- [29:14]
Host
Yeah.
- [29:15]
Anthony Ruggiano
But I never really looked over my shoulder. I mean, I know they're good. They. You know, when you do what I did, they kill you.
- [29:20]
Host
Right.
- [29:20]
Anthony Ruggiano
I mean that. You know, there's a contract automatically out on you. But the mob is not what it was like in 77 when I came to Vegas. Yeah. They were killing people.
- [29:29]
Host
Yeah.
- [29:29]
Anthony Ruggiano
But in 2025, day in killing with nobody anymore. Them days are over. How are they going to do it? Just cameras all over. People are cooperating. It's just a different world.
- [29:40]
Host
Yeah. Murder seems very hard now, right?
- [29:42]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, it's. Well, I demolish. I think I. From what I heard. I mean, I still talk to people out there, and they're saying to me that the rule is now no more murders. Wow. They're not even allowed to kill anybody.
- [29:52]
Host
Anymore because their numbers are so low already.
- [29:54]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah. And because there's too much surveillance, too many under too many confidential informants, too much time. You know, like the last mom murder they had was this guy, Michael Melnis. She was a friend of mine. I knew him. Good. They killed him in the Bronx. Everybody that was involved in it is in prison.
- [30:10]
Host
Geez, when was that?
- [30:12]
Anthony Ruggiano
Michael Melnis got killed probably maybe in 2019.
- [30:17]
Host
Oh, so it's been five years, six years.
- [30:20]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah. And everybody's in prison. Stevie Korea, the two guys that shot him because they got caught on a camera. The guy that gave the order, Stevie Crea. The.
- [30:31]
Host
Even the guy that gave the order got caught.
- [30:33]
Anthony Ruggiano
All of them.
- [30:33]
Host
Someone snitched.
- [30:34]
Anthony Ruggiano
Well, then people. People cooperated. All of them. Everybody that was involved in that mob murder got. Went to prison.
- [30:40]
Host
Wow. And why'd they take him out?
- [30:43]
Anthony Ruggiano
He was. He was dangerous. He was. He was. He was disrespectful to them. He was taking money off them. He was, you know, he was just very disrespectful, very dangerous. He was a killer. His brother was doing life. His brother was like a hitman. Yeah. They just were scared of him. Like, he was. He was doing business and not kicking up to them. Like in the. In the restaurants he was hanging out in Rao's of the Fan. He was Just doing things he shouldn't have done. He was breaking a lot of rules.
- [31:15]
Host
And, yeah, he had a lot of.
- [31:16]
Anthony Ruggiano
Chances making them look bad. That's what it came down to. He was making them look bad. Right. So it was either put your tail between your legs and look bad or, you know, do what you got to do. And they decided to do what they had to do, and they were all in jail.
- [31:29]
Host
Wow. Back in your day, it was common though, right?
- [31:32]
Anthony Ruggiano
Oh, my God. Yeah.
- [31:33]
Host
Like, probably one a year, at least.
- [31:35]
Anthony Ruggiano
A lot. My brother's friend got killed. I mean, I knew so, so many people that got killed back then. My brother's friend Tommy got killed? Yeah. No, it was, it was. You went. But back in the 70s, the 60s and 70s, if you broke the rules, you were dead. I mean, my brother in law beat my mother up. We killed him.
- [31:52]
Host
Yeah.
- [31:53]
Anthony Ruggiano
You know what I mean? So.
- [31:54]
Host
And you didn't tell her for a while, your sister?
- [31:56]
Anthony Ruggiano
No, I told. I talked about that yesterday. I. When I. When I decided to cooperate in O5 and they took me out of my house, I made them take me to my mother's house at first, just tell them what happened and to say goodbye. And I wanted to tell my sister. I wanted to give them some closure, make amends, you know? So I went to my mother's house with the feds. And my sister, she flipped out. She totally went crazy, screaming at me, how could you do this to me? You ruined my life and screaming at me. She left us. She ran away. And my mother, she was just like, sad. She was just sitting there, and she just says to me, because my father gave me permission to do it. He okayed the whole thing. That's how the mob operates. The father tells the son to commit a murder, and then the son goes and commits the murder.
- [32:46]
Host
He had to get approval from someone.
- [32:47]
Anthony Ruggiano
Well, first my father had to okay it, Then my father, okay. Then we reached out to Jeannie Gotti, and then he went to his brother John, who was the boss. And then John had. Okay, because in the mob, when you want to kill somebody, you got to get permission, because otherwise it brings heat around. You just can't randomly kill everybody. You have to. It's because in the mob, they call murder work. So to do a piece of work, you got to get permission. So we got how to get permission. So first my father located, then John okayed it. And then we put the plan in motion. So after the murder in 88, I got arrested for it. I got arrested for it in 2005 for the murder. And then about a month later, the feds took me out of my house. And that's when I went to tell my sister what happened. So she flipped out. And my mother just was sitting at the kitchen table, and she just looked at me and she goes, I can't believe he made you do things like that. You know, my father made me do things like that, but that was the mob.
- [33:44]
Host
Yeah.
- [33:44]
Anthony Ruggiano
You know, after that, my sister met another guy. I was talking. After that, my sister met another guy a year later, and my sister got arrested when. Because they were doing. Using. Doing drugs. And they got arrested with credit cards. Hanging out credit cards and in the stolen car. And my father wanted me to kill him. And I told him no. And he got mad. He got mad at me. Yeah, I was. He was in prison, and I went to visit him, and he says, this guy, Chris, you know what you got to do here? I go, I'm not do. I'm not killing this kid. He's a kid from the neighbor. You don't know nothing about the mob or. He's the kid from the neighbor that she was. She was getting high with. I'm not. What are we going to. I told my father, what, are we going to kill everybody she goes with till she meets a fucking astronaut? I mean, I don't. I don't understand what you want to do here. I told him, I said, yeah, we'll just kill everybody that she goes with because she's your baby girl.
- [34:30]
Host
Yeah.
- [34:31]
Anthony Ruggiano
And he got mad at me. He got up, he went, I don't. I'll take care of myself. I don't want you to do nothing for me. I'll take care of it myself. I said, good. You take care of it. So I went back to Ozone park and I sent for this kid. I said, listen, man, you better get the fuck out of here, because you're going. You know what I mean? He left, and I didn't see him anymore. And I didn't even want to know what happened. I didn't ask my father what happened.
- [34:50]
Host
Wow.
- [34:51]
Anthony Ruggiano
I didn't want to know. I was hoping that they didn't kill the kid. About a year later, I get a letter from this other kid, Chris, that's in prison, upstate New York. And he says to me, listen, there's a guy, Chris, that just rolled in here that's going around telling everybody he went out with your sister. I said, oh, thank God he's alive. It was him, and he was in jail. I said, oh, thank God they didn't kill the poor kid, he was. He was in, you know, he was in prison. But the reason why I gave him a pass is because he wasn't. He didn't. He wasn't an associate. He was like my brother in law. He knew the rules.
- [35:22]
Host
Right?
- [35:23]
Anthony Ruggiano
He was. He was mobbed up. He was a dangerous kid. He was an armored car robber. He was a murderer. You know, he had Uzi stashed in my mother's garage. I mean, he knew the rules. He was told, don't go out with Fat and his daughter. And he did it anyway. So it was a different story between him and Chris. If Chris was more like him, then maybe Chris would have got killed. But being that he was just a neighborhood kid, you know, I just couldn't do it. I couldn't. I couldn't bring myself to. To do that.
- [35:48]
Host
So were you not allowed to date other made guys, daughters or whatever?
- [35:52]
Anthony Ruggiano
Basically it was. You were allowed, but I didn't, you know, it wasn't a good thing to do. I had opportunities to, to have. Not to have affairs with wise guys, daughters. And I, I pissed. You know, like, you know, like everybody. I know that like Carmine the Bull, he married John Gotti's. Gotti's daughter. It wasn't a good fit. Yeah, Carmine, the other kid, his other daughter married this kid Louie. This, this is a crazy story. So he marries this kid. Louis Albano marries Angel Gotti. He. We knew him. He was my father's partner's, like, third cousin now. And we all cheated on our wives, you know, We, Everybody. Every mob guy I know, including my father, had a wife and one or two girlfriends. I mean, that's just how it was. Took your girlfriend out on a Friday and your wife out on a Saturday. And that's what you did?
- [36:48]
Host
Yeah.
- [36:48]
Anthony Ruggiano
So the kid had an affair and the girl got pregnant and John wanted to kill the kid.
- [36:56]
Host
Wow.
- [36:57]
Anthony Ruggiano
You know, because, you know, it's his daughter. And Tony Lee saved him, but they chased him, they took his job, they took his father's firework business. So, you know, it wasn't a good idea to go out with wise guy's daughters, you know, it wasn't a good idea.
- [37:12]
Host
Yeah.
- [37:13]
Anthony Ruggiano
My son, when I was in prison, when I was in prison, my son. I called my son up one day and he tells me, oh, I started seeing this girl from Howard Beach. I said, really? She goes. He goes, yeah. And I think you and grandpa know her father. So I go, oh, yeah? Who's her father? He said, vicamuso. Vicamuso was the boss of the Lucchese crime family.
- [37:35]
Host
Wow.
- [37:35]
Anthony Ruggiano
He lived in Howard Beach. I told my son, Vic, I said, don't ever go out with her again. Don't go near her, don't see her, stay away from her. And he did. I said, because if you. If that girl gets mad at you and says you did something wrong, grandpa can't save you, so do not go near that girl. And he. He stood away from us.
- [37:54]
Host
Smart move, man.
- [37:55]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:55]
Host
You got to be careful with the ladies, man. They ruined a lot of friendships.
- [37:58]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [37:59]
Host
You know?
- [38:00]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah.
- [38:01]
Host
So I watched Michael Franzis on Piers Morgan the other day.
- [38:04]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yes.
- [38:04]
Host
And he was talking about the JFK assassination.
- [38:07]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yes.
- [38:08]
Host
He said the mob played a role in that. What do you think about that?
- [38:11]
Anthony Ruggiano
Oh, did. No doubt about it. I had a lot of conversations with my father about that and his. He told me Kennedy and his brother double crushed everybody that helped him. The father was a gangster. Joe Kennedy, he was in bootlegger. Was hooked up with the mob when Kennedy was running for president, he went to the Teamsters and got the Teamsters to back Kennedy. Right. Kennedy wins the presidency, what does he do? He makes his brother the attorney general. And who's the first person they go after? Hoffa. Right. They put Hoffman jail. Right. Definitely the mob had something to do with it. Without a doubt. There's no. I think it came out of New Orleans. And look at. And Jack Ruby, he kills Oswald and then he dies a year later with stomach cancer.
- [38:54]
Host
Right. Seemed fishy. Right.
- [38:56]
Anthony Ruggiano
Of course.
- [38:57]
Host
Who do you think took Ruby out? You think it was a mob, too?
- [38:59]
Anthony Ruggiano
Well, I think Jack Ruby got a lot of money. I think Jack Ruby got a suitcase full of money. Yeah. Without a doubt. They sent Ruby in there because, I mean, he had cancer when he did it. I mean, he knew he was going to get caught. He. I mean, he did it right on National. I was a little kid, I saw it on National. I was watching it with my grandmother, and the TV went blank.
- [39:17]
Host
Yeah.
- [39:17]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yes. Oh, definitely the mob.
- [39:19]
Host
You think it was one shooter or multiple?
- [39:22]
Anthony Ruggiano
Who knows? My opinion, I think there was more than one. And I don't know. I think the truth might. Some of the truth might come out now that. Because Trump is releasing all this information, so maybe. Maybe some documents would tell the truth, but that was always the discussion among us that the mob was in on it. I mean, they tried to kill Castro to see. We know the CIA did business with the mob. Gone back to World War II, and they let Lucky Luciano. That's all true. The Guy was in prison doing time for. In Dannemora, and they made a deal with him to help with the docs, and they deported him.
- [39:53]
Host
Wow.
- [39:53]
Anthony Ruggiano
So that, you know, the mob was always in it. They tried to kill Castro. They went to them to kill Castro. So why wouldn't they go to them? To what, Kennedy?
- [40:03]
Host
Yeah. Did the CIA ever approach your. Your dad or you or anyone you know?
- [40:08]
Anthony Ruggiano
No, but they did. There was a. In the. In the 70s, there was this guy, Robin Banks, and he shot an FBI agent. And they always thought he was with my father, this guy, but he wasn't. He was with this guy, Charlie Wagons, this other mate guy. He was on record with this guy, Charlie Wagons, and he robbed a bank in Boston, and when he came out, he shot an FBI agent. The agent didn't die, but he shot an agent. And they wanted this guy bad. And they thought he was with my own man. They literally. They used to follow my father every day. They would sit in front of the house. My father would knock on door and go, I'm going here. I'm going there. And they would follow him over. And one day, they told my father in the street, they go, listen, we don't care if we find this guy in a garbage pill. We just want to find him. So they, like, told my old man, like, you could kill this guy and put him in a garbage pail, and it's okay. We just want to find him. He shot one of them. They eventually locked him up. But that's so. I mean, you know, that's what. That's what they did. Wow.
- [41:04]
Host
So there was some respect there.
- [41:06]
Anthony Ruggiano
Oh, yeah. Yeah, they were. It was funny because my father had. He used to take them to bars, and he would never go eat dinner, and he would just stay in a bar all day, and they would, like, say, andy, could you please go eat dinner? They wanted to go eat dinner. They were starving, these agents, and he tortured them. They followed him for, like, about a month.
- [41:23]
Host
Damn. Just looking for that body or.
- [41:25]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, looking for this guy that shot the agent. And then they told him one day, like, listen, we don't care if we find him in a garbage pail. We just want to find him.
- [41:33]
Host
Yeah. What happened to that guy?
- [41:34]
Anthony Ruggiano
They arrested him. He went to prison.
- [41:36]
Host
Oh, they didn't kill him.
- [41:37]
Anthony Ruggiano
No, no. They arrested him. Yeah, he. They arrested him. I think they arrested him in Connecticut somewhere, but he got arrested. He went to jail.
- [41:43]
Host
Wow.
- [41:43]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah.
- [41:44]
Host
How often were you getting followed? All the time.
- [41:47]
Anthony Ruggiano
All the time. I mean, and probably more so in the night. I mean, in the 70s, not so much, you know, but in the night after. Well, I got clean in 88, after John Gotti became divorced, we were under surveillance all the time.
- [42:00]
Host
Damn.
- [42:00]
Anthony Ruggiano
Because, you know, especially us, because we came from Ozone park, so we had, like, an intimate relationship with him.
- [42:06]
Host
Yeah.
- [42:06]
Anthony Ruggiano
So more us. More so than anybody. And the Ravenite was always under surveillance.
- [42:11]
Host
That was his club, Right.
- [42:12]
Anthony Ruggiano
In Manhattan. And then the club, the Burger Fish Club, was always under surveillance. And every time, like, right before, I would get arrested. So I got arrested in 91. So they started following me a couple of months before that. Then in 90, I got arrested in 95, my. My house. My phone was tapped for about a month in my house, and I was under surveillance for. They. They know I went to Paris. They notified Interpol.
- [42:37]
Host
Wow.
- [42:38]
Anthony Ruggiano
Interpol. Because when I came back, I got. I came back from Paris and I got arrested. When I got back, I. I went to Paris in September, and in October, I got arrested. And the. And the agents told me, yeah, we were going to arrest you last month, but you went to Paris. And we had a way. We had a way for the reports to come back from Interpol. I said interpol. I went to a NA convention. They thought, like, I was over there doing mob shit in Paris.
- [43:00]
Host
Be careful with France, man. That's where they got the telegram. CEO. They arrested him there.
- [43:04]
Anthony Ruggiano
They have the. They have a French mob? Yeah.
- [43:06]
Host
Oh, there's a mob in France?
- [43:07]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah. And not only is the mob in French, they actually have a ceremony like the Italians.
- [43:12]
Host
Really?
- [43:13]
Anthony Ruggiano
In France? Yeah.
- [43:13]
Host
I did not know there was a French mob.
- [43:15]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yes, there's a French mob. Yeah. My old man told me that. That they. They actually have a ceremony when they. When they make guys like. Like the Italians?
- [43:23]
Host
Yeah. Are they in the US Too, or just in France?
- [43:25]
Anthony Ruggiano
I don't know if I never heard of any of them in the U.S. i mean, a couple of them out, and I met a couple of them that were in Montreal. They were like, in the 70s. They were coming back and forth in Montreal, but I never heard of anybody, like, stationed or, like, have any kind of clubs or anything in the United States.
- [43:42]
Host
Yeah. I wonder what businesses the French mob gets into.
- [43:45]
Anthony Ruggiano
Everyone.
- [43:46]
Host
Oh, yeah.
- [43:46]
Anthony Ruggiano
Heroin. Damn. All of them. And it's Sicily and all. It's all. That's all drugs, all heroin.
- [43:53]
Host
Did Italian ever get into heroin? The Italian Mafia?
- [43:56]
Anthony Ruggiano
Of course they did. That's why Paul Castellano got killed. He wanted the tapes. They were all selling heroin. John Gotti's crew was all selling heroin. And they got. There was tapes of them selling heroin, and he wanted the tapes because it was against the rules.
- [44:10]
Host
That was. That was the start of the downfall.
- [44:12]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yes.
- [44:12]
Host
A heroin.
- [44:13]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah. You know, it's funny because in the 70s, guys used to bring my. So my old man had a partner named Tony Lee. They were partners, and they used to do favors for guys and a guy. And they. Guys used to offer them heroin. Listen, I'll take a kilo to heroin. You can make a lot of money. And my old man always used to tell them no. And I used to tell my father, what do you take it? Take it. You know how much money is involved in this? And he used to tell me, no, because number one is I'm the guy don't make an example out of. And number two is it's blood money. I said blood money. You just kill people Worried about blood money. He never sold drugs. Guys around him did, but he never sold drugs. My brother had a big major. It's funny because my brother had a big marijuana business in the 70s and into the 80s, and he made a lot of money selling marijuana. And guys that worked for him actually went to prison for it. Now I'm driving around Vegas. There's pot stores all over the place. Even in New York now. They just opened up a store in my neighborhood. Oh, we saw. Right, right. Dead in the middle of my neighborhood. And I told. I told my brother's son that your father was way ahead of his time.
- [45:13]
Host
Yeah, he was, man. Was he getting it from cartels?
- [45:16]
Anthony Ruggiano
He was getting it for. Yeah, Max. He was getting. Yeah, yeah. Was coming in from Mexico. He. He was. He. He was a connoisseur, my brother. He was getting it from everybody. He was. He sold. We. We had a. We had a park across you from my house called 8H Street Park. And he was selling nickel bags in the 70s. He was selling 200 nickel bills of debt. He was making crazy money. Damn. And he used to pay. If you sold nickel bags for him, you got a dollar a bag. So he had kids making $200 a day selling nickel bags of weed.
- [45:46]
Host
Smart man.
- [45:47]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah.
- [45:47]
Host
Have him do the marketing for him. Did he get caught?
- [45:50]
Anthony Ruggiano
He never got caught. But guys around him got caught. He never got arrested.
- [45:53]
Host
Wow. Guys real smart.
- [45:54]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah. Guys around him that they. Couple of them went to jail. Larry went to jail a few times. Guy. Larry went to jail. Jail. A couple of them went to jail. I heard that friends got killed. Oh, his partner got murdered. Yeah.
- [46:06]
Host
I heard that's a tough business these days because it's legal now everywhere.
- [46:08]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah. There's a store in every corner.
- [46:10]
Host
Yeah.
- [46:10]
Anthony Ruggiano
In New York. Well, in New York, there's a lot of stores that don't have licenses. They're closing and they close them down every day. And then they just reopen up the block.
- [46:17]
Host
Yeah. I grew up in Jersey. How powerful did the New Jersey mob get at its peak?
- [46:22]
Anthony Ruggiano
Very well. Very powerful. Especially when Atlantic City came into play. You had the Philadelphia mob and the Jersey mob fighting over the contracts in Atlantic City.
- [46:30]
Host
So the Philly mob wanted to get involved. Was that with Marlino before Molino?
- [46:35]
Anthony Ruggiano
And with Molino more so before Nikki Scoffer. He was the main guy. That's when Atlantic City was being built up.
- [46:41]
Host
So that's when Trump was trying to do stuff out there.
- [46:43]
Anthony Ruggiano
Trump had, you know, the mob never got to Trump. You know, Sammy the Bull talks about that all the time.
- [46:48]
Host
Right.
- [46:49]
Anthony Ruggiano
Because I, and I, I even personally asked Sammy to bull that when I was in Arizona. I says, because he had all the. They had a club and they had, they had a big. A bid rigging club and they called it the club the Five families of the Mob. And they rigged all the bidding for construction jobs. And Sammy was one of the main guys in the club. And I asked Sammy, I says to him, what's up? What did you, did you ever do anything with Trump? He goes, nobody could ever get to Trump. He said he was always, he was too smart. And he was always, he always had FBI, ex, ex FBI agents working for him. And any time we pushed up, try to push up on him, he knew it was happening and he stopped it dead in its tracks.
- [47:31]
Host
Wow.
- [47:32]
Anthony Ruggiano
He said they never got him. Never. Because they, they asked him. They. And Trump, you know, Trump, when Trump was running for president, you know, he used that clip with he. With Sammy. Oh, he did? Yeah.
- [47:43]
Host
I didn't know.
- [47:44]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, yeah. Because Sammy said it on Vladimir. Vlad asked him, did you ever, you know, did you ever get to Trump? And he told Vlad the same thing he told me that they tried and they couldn't do it. They couldn't push up on him. He was too smart, the FBI and blah, blah, blah, blah. And Sammy told Vlad the same thing he told me. And Trump posted it on the social media. And then Sammy was getting calls from all over the world to come on news shows about Trump.
- [48:10]
Host
That's wild, man. Did you guys ever have any politicians under control?
- [48:13]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah. Oh, my God. Not, not on that level. Like the councilman, city councilman, this guy Tony Sadowski, he was like a city councilman. He was with me that. Well, back in the day, there was this guy named me this. Meet Esposito. He was a big Democrat because they have Democratic clubs in New York that were very, very powerful. And Mead Esposito was. He ran the Democratic club in Brooklyn, which was very, very powerful. He was mobbed up. He was with Sonny Francis. Michael knows him really good, and we know him really good. He. He came from. He was out of East New York, the same neighborhood we're out of. He was very powerful. He was a politician, a lot of cops. The president of. Of Queens county, because every borough has its own president. Yeah, he was on. He was involved. Matter of fact, he even committed suicide because he got arrested. He was going to get arrested. They had a thing going with traffic tickets. They were robbing millions of dollars. Millions.
- [49:08]
Host
How are they doing that?
- [49:11]
Anthony Ruggiano
You know what? I don't remember how they were doing it. I just know they got this guy Mel. Mel the Beckon. He was a lawyer. He got arrested. Sarial got arrested. He was with my father and the president of Queens County. He committed suicide in Flushing Meadow Park. Yeah.
- [49:29]
Host
Well, he probably knew he would get taken out, Right. If he went to.
- [49:32]
Anthony Ruggiano
Well, he just didn't want to go to jail. Yeah. Because he. Of course he was. He knew he would be in trouble in there. He committed suit. Mel debeck and got disbarred. It was a whole big thing. Yeah. So, yeah, politicians, cops, correction officers, we had all the correctional officers undertake when I was in jail.
- [49:48]
Host
Anyone on a federal level or. It was all kind of local and with us anyway.
- [49:52]
Anthony Ruggiano
I'm sure there was on a federal. Not with us. Yeah, the Queens da Sadowski, he was hooked up with this guy Sarial. They had a meeting in this. In this restaurant out to diners with John Gotti. He was all over the newspapers when it leaked out that John had a sit down with the Queen's da.
- [50:09]
Host
Yeah.
- [50:09]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah.
- [50:09]
Host
You talked to any. Any of Gotti's kids?
- [50:12]
Anthony Ruggiano
Not no more.
- [50:13]
Host
Not anymore. Is there still a lot of bad blood there?
- [50:16]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, we just don't get him.
- [50:18]
Host
I know one of them went on a podcast I think might have been John.
- [50:21]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, he just went on. Patrick Ben David. Yeah, Patrick Ben David. You know, some of it was true. I just. I put out something on my podcast about it because some of it was bullshit and some of it was real. But, yeah, it was a good, good, good interview. But he. He made some. He didn't tell all the truth.
- [50:40]
Host
Okay.
- [50:40]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, but, well, you're.
- [50:41]
Host
You're always going to be biased towards family. Right. That's his own father he's talking about.
- [50:44]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, but he, he, he, he was told the truths about his father. But he plays a victim. And we weren't victims. I say it all the time. We, we, we were bad guys. He was the son of a wise guy. I was the son of a wise guy. But we made choices. Like when I was 16 years old, I had a choice. When I got kicked out of school, my father sat me down in the kitchen and he said to me, what do you want to do? And I said, I want to go to work. And he goes, all right, I'll get you in the cement masons union. I said, I don't want to go in those cement masons union. He goes, what do you want to do? I said, I want to work for you. And he looked at me and he goes, well, if you want to work for me, going to jail is all part of the job. And I was okay with that. I was 16 and he put me to work in a blackjack game. So I had a choice. I wasn't a victim. He was in military school one day and the next day he became. He was a main member of the mob. So he had a choice. Stay in military school and have a career or go work for your father. And he chose to work for his father. Now he's a victim. I don't agree with it.
- [51:43]
Host
Yeah, I mean, hopefully you two can make up. It was cool seeing Sammy and Michael Franzese make up.
- [51:47]
Anthony Ruggiano
Oh, yeah.
- [51:47]
Host
You know, I just did something with.
- [51:49]
Anthony Ruggiano
The two of them. They. I'm going to do something with sammy on the 27th. Hopefully Michael's going to be involved in it.
- [51:54]
Host
Yeah. Because there's a lot of lessons if you guys can come together. Right. Share your stories.
- [51:57]
Anthony Ruggiano
You know what it is? It's some guys, not Michael, not Michael's. Some guys think they're still in the street. That's why there's a lot of bickering going on now. You got destroyed Molina in the mix and he's going every names and it's just a bunch of bullshit going on. I try to stay out of it, you know, as best I can.
- [52:15]
Host
Yeah.
- [52:16]
Anthony Ruggiano
I mean a lot of guys still have egos. I mean mob guys are egomaniacs. You know what I mean?
- [52:20]
Host
You have to be in that lifestyle.
- [52:22]
Anthony Ruggiano
And self centered and ego. Egotistical. So there's just a lot of bickering going on. I try to stay out of it. Yeah.
- [52:29]
Host
I try to stay out of it. I had Joey on And then Michael came on the next week and he was like, damn, if I knew you had Joey.
- [52:35]
Anthony Ruggiano
I saw it. I saw it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, he shelved now, Molina, because what he's doing now, see, we cooperated, so we, we're immediately out of the mob. Now he's shelved. So he has a. He has as much to do with the mob now as I do, which is nothing. Yeah, he has as much power as I do, but he still plays the role. He still talks, you know, he still talks to talk, but he's not walking the walk no more.
- [53:00]
Host
So what does shelve mean? Because he didn't rat, right?
- [53:02]
Anthony Ruggiano
No, shelved means. So years ago they would kill you if you did. Like if he, if this was years ago, he would get killed just like I would get killed. Because he's a mob guy. He was a boss. He can't have a podcast. You can't. Joe Colombo had the Italian American League. They shot him. He got killed. You cannot do what he's doing. You cannot do what he's doing. So if he would have done that when he was actively the boss back in the day, he would have got killed. So now what the mob does, instead of killing you, they call it, they shelve you. That means they take away your power. Nobody could do nothing with you. You have no say no more. You're like shunned.
- [53:38]
Host
Got it?
- [53:39]
Anthony Ruggiano
You know, you got the scarlet letter on you. You know what I mean? Like you're shunned.
- [53:43]
Host
Yeah.
- [53:43]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah.
- [53:44]
Host
Did you have any run ins or hear any stories about him in his younger days?
- [53:46]
Anthony Ruggiano
Oh, I knew. Who? Joy Molina. Yeah, I knew him. Good. I used to go meet him. He was.
- [53:50]
Host
Oh yeah.
- [53:50]
Anthony Ruggiano
Oh yeah, I know. He, he, him and my own man were in Alan with together. They befriended each other. My father loved him.
- [53:56]
Host
Oh, wow.
- [53:56]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah. I used to go. I, I met him in Philly. I, I that when my, I'm trying to. So my phone was bugged. I told you in 95, my phone phone was bugged for a month. And he used to call me all the time. Now he denied. I only met him for two minutes. You know, I mean he used to call my house all the time. I'm working on now, me and Pasquale, my manager, my managing partner, he's trying to get the tapes. We're waiting for them. We just put in, did all the paperwork because I'm getting the tapes and I'm going to play the tapes on my paper.
- [54:23]
Host
Oh, wow.
- [54:24]
Anthony Ruggiano
Of him call. Hey, buddy, what's going on, pal. You know, I'm coming to New York. Let's get together. Tell Nikki I need to see him. And I was making appointments with him between him and the captains in the Gambino family. So I'm going to, you know, And. And now. And, you know, back in the day, we have phone. We had phone books, you know. Yeah, there's. So way before your time.
- [54:43]
Host
My dad had that.
- [54:44]
Anthony Ruggiano
And we have beepers. So I. So I have. I found all my old phone books because I had to give them to the government. So I'm looking through boxes, and I found. I found them, and they have the exhibit tags on them from the trials. And I'm looking through the. Through the phone book, and there. There it is right there. Joe Philly. I had his. His home number, so I showed it on my podcast. I went, joey, look, does this phone number look familiar?
- [55:09]
Host
And it was his number.
- [55:11]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah, from when he used to live, you know, back in the 90s where he lived with his wife and his two daughters, you know, so I'm. I'm looking forward to putting those tapes out, but.
- [55:19]
Host
That's funny. So he denies meeting you.
- [55:21]
Anthony Ruggiano
Like, he denies. He said. He denied. He said it like, I only met him for, like, you know, a minute. Like, he denied. Yeah, he. He. And he denied the friendship. His what? My father. He minimized the friendship. He minimized the friendship because he was in Alan with my father. He was. He was a captain then.
- [55:43]
Host
Yeah.
- [55:44]
Anthony Ruggiano
And my father introduced him to this guy Lenny, who was a captain in the Gambino family because he didn't want to do business anymore with the Genovese. It was a whole big mob thing. They were doing business with the Genovese family. They didn't like it. He wanted to do business with the Gambino family, so my father hooked him up with this guy Lenny. So when Joey got out of jail, I became, like the go between guy between him and Lenny. And I was bringing messages to him in Philly, and. And he would call me to make appointments with him to see Lenny.
- [56:14]
Host
Got it.
- [56:15]
Anthony Ruggiano
And now it's like that never happened, according to him.
- [56:17]
Host
Interesting.
- [56:18]
Anthony Ruggiano
Until I get the tapes.
- [56:19]
Host
So you guys were doing some business with the affiliate guys back then?
- [56:22]
Anthony Ruggiano
Nikki and Lenny were doing business with them? Yeah, yeah, they were doing business with them. Yeah, they were doing, like, they had, like, gambling machines, and they were doing something with private. With the private sanitation. Yeah, yeah, they were starting to roll with them. They still do business with them.
- [56:35]
Host
What led to the downfall of the Philly mob? Because I've seen a documentary. They started murdering everyone. Right.
- [56:39]
Anthony Ruggiano
Well, there was a lot of wars. I mean, Joey, Joey's crew took over the city. I mean, Nikki Scoffer was a serial killer. He was killing everybody. Killed that they killed. He killed his best friend's son.
- [56:50]
Host
Wow. What happened?
- [56:52]
Anthony Ruggiano
He felt threatened by him. The kid had a lot of, you know, everybody loved the kid. You know, he felt he was, he, he caught. He was delusional, and he caught. You know, he figured he, he figured he could make a move on him. It was just a terrible thing. And the guy was Joey Molina's friend too. They killed him. Was Salvi. The guy's name was Salvi. Just a lot of insanity. I mean, you know, then they all went to jail, and Joey took over. And then Joey got arrested 100 times. I mean, damn. It's, it's, there's, there's no, no future in it anymore.
- [57:24]
Host
Yeah.
- [57:24]
Anthony Ruggiano
Especially when they know you, you committed an act of. See me, they knew I committed an act of violence. In 88, I went to jail for everything. I went to jail for everything I went to jail for after, after 88 is legal today. I went to jail for bookmaking. I have an app on my phone. I went to jail for policy, which is numbers. Every store has a lotto machine. Everything I went to jail for today is legal outside of the murder, when I got indicted for murder.
- [57:51]
Host
And now the government makes money off it, too.
- [57:53]
Anthony Ruggiano
That's why it's legal.
- [57:55]
Host
Crazy, right?
- [57:55]
Anthony Ruggiano
That's why it's legal.
- [57:56]
Host
How's your sports betting stuff going?
- [57:58]
Anthony Ruggiano
Oh, I don't, My. Oh, I, I can't win.
- [58:01]
Host
Oh, you can't? I can't. It's a tough space, man.
- [58:04]
Anthony Ruggiano
I won today, and I went today on the roulette wheel.
- [58:07]
Host
I love the honesty because a lot of people still be selling their picks and stuff, and they're losing.
- [58:11]
Anthony Ruggiano
Well, that's what Jeremiah is doing. Yeah, no, I, I, I'm, I'm very unlucky. I mean, I, I, Things happen when I bet. Like, happens. Like, like my son laughs. He goes, only you. This happens to. No, I, I'm, I'm, I'm not. No, I'm bad.
- [58:26]
Host
There's people saying the NFL is rigged. Right now with the Chiefs, they're saying they're just winning every game.
- [58:31]
Anthony Ruggiano
Come on. It's, it's so blatant terrible. I mean, I, I, I want them to lose so bad, and I'm tired of looking at her. Every catch, like Chelsea makes, they put, they put her on. I mean, who cares already? Yeah. Come on. You see first the flags against Texas. The flags were going up in the air every time Texas is moving the ball. Then they brought in a special ref that Mahomes had a losing record against. So what did they do instead of throwing flags? They made bad calls, first downs. They didn't give them incomplete passes that were incomplete. They called them complete.
- [59:04]
Host
Pretty wild.
- [59:05]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah.
- [59:05]
Host
It's so blatant these days, man.
- [59:07]
Anthony Ruggiano
Crazy.
- [59:07]
Host
Well, dude, it's been awesome work. People check you out. And you have a Patreon too.
- [59:12]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yes, I have a Patreon. I just revamped it. It's membership started a dollar. Reformgangsters.com they come on for a dollar. They check out my what I have. They like it. They become a member. They could talk to me. I go live. I speak on it. It's reformgangsters.com I got a lot of content coming up. I'm doing a special, 27 February with Sammy the Bullshit. Hopefully Michael Francis. Sammy, definitely. I'm doing the Mob Museum tonight.
- [59:38]
Host
Sold out, right?
- [59:39]
Anthony Ruggiano
Sold out. Yeah. I found out yesterday because I did a podcast with him yesterday and I asked the girl how many. How's the tickets going? She goes, oh, we sold out. Oh, that's nice.
- [59:47]
Host
Love it.
- [59:47]
Anthony Ruggiano
Yeah. So everything's going good. But yeah, reform gangsters.com I love it.
- [59:51]
Host
We'll link it below. Thanks for coming on again, man.
- [59:52]
Anthony Ruggiano
Oh, my pleasure.
- [59:53]
Host
Absolutely. Check them out, guys.
- [60:00]
Mandy
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Talkspace Ad
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