The Truth About Hedge Funds, Private Equity & Wall Street Lies | Mark Matson DSH #1227

Summary

Digital Social Hour: The Truth About Hedge Funds, Private Equity & Wall Street Lies | Mark Matson DSH #1227

Release Date: March 9, 2025

In this compelling episode of Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly engages in an unfiltered and insightful conversation with financial expert Mark Mattson from Mattson Money. The discussion delves deep into the intricacies of hedge funds, private equity, Wall Street practices, and the broader landscape of investing. Mark shares his extensive experience, ethical stance, and practical advice for both novice and seasoned investors. Below is a detailed summary of the key points, discussions, insights, and conclusions drawn from the episode.

---

1. Critique of Hedge Funds and Private Equity

Mark Mattson opens the conversation by criticizing hedge funds, highlighting the unrealistic return promises and exorbitant fees they charge. He explains:

"Hedge funds will tell you you can make 20, 30% a year, 40% a year, but think of the math. And they charge you 2% of your money that you invested and then 20% of the gain."
(00:56)

Mark emphasizes that if hedge fund managers could consistently achieve such high returns, they would leverage lower-cost borrowing instead of enticing investors with misleading claims. He further elaborates on the strategy of opening multiple hedge funds, where only a few may succeed while others underperform, ultimately misleading investors about overall performance.

2. The Nature of Investments: Stocks, Bonds, vs. Bitcoin

Mark contrasts traditional investments with speculative ones like Bitcoin:

"When you buy a stock, you own a piece of a company. When you buy a bond, you own a guarantee from the company to pay you back. When you buy bitcoin, there's no there there."
(02:32)

He introduces the "bigger fool theory," suggesting that Bitcoin's value is purely speculative, reliant on the willingness of buyers to pay higher prices without inherent value backing. Mark categorizes Bitcoin alongside other "toxic investments" in his book, Experiencing the American Dream.

3. Historical Failures as Investment Lessons

Using historical examples, Mark illustrates the volatility and risk associated with certain investments:

"From 1995 to 2000, tech stocks were up 45% per year for five years running. And then they lost 75% of their value almost overnight."
(03:18)

He cites companies like Kodak, Blockbuster, and Boeing to demonstrate how even industry giants can falter due to various challenges, reinforcing the unpredictability of attempting to "beat the market."

4. Human Biases and Portfolio Management

Mark delves into the psychological aspects of investing, identifying several cognitive biases that negatively impact investment decisions:

• Herding Bias: Following the crowd without critical analysis.
• Confirmation Bias: Seeking information that confirms preconceived notions.
• Recency Bias: Overemphasizing recent performance trends.

"There are over a hundred different biases that human beings have relative to how they invest. Most people don't even consider that their brain could subconsciously be building their portfolio."
(20:33)

5. Diversification and Risk Management Strategies

Mark advocates for a diversified investment portfolio to mitigate risks:

"You own the market instead of playing the market. And that's the way to fulfill with getting rid of a ton of risk that most people take."
(07:29)

He explains the importance of diversifying across various asset categories and international markets to enhance returns and reduce exposure to any single economic downturn.

6. Critique of Influential Figures like Dave Ramsey

Mark offers a critical perspective on financial guru Dave Ramsey, pointing out two main issues:

1. Mixing Religion with Financial Advice:

   "Don't use God's name in vain. Using God's name to make money... counter to scriptures."
   (27:28)

2. Questionable Financial Practices:

   "He uses his radio show to make money by handing out leads to other advisors that sign up underneath him... it's a relationship based on commissions and fees."
   (28:14)

7. Advice for Regular Investors

Mark provides actionable advice for individuals earning between $50k to $100k per year:

1. Start Investing Early:

   "If you have $10,000 or $20,000 in credit cards and you're not putting in $400 a month in your 401k or... $500 away in your own investment account... start now."
   (30:32)

2. Opt for Low-Cost Investments:

   "Don't stock pick, don't market time, don't put Robinhood on your phone... avoid all that stuff."
   (31:16)

3. Diversify Your Portfolio:

   "Find what's going to add value to that company... hire the best people based on merit."
   (31:57)

8. The Role of AI and Future Business Models

Mark discusses the potential impact of AI and quantum computing on future business models:

"Only things that are inherently human will be a business model in the future... human reaction, human interaction, feelings, emotions, intimacy, love."
(24:21)

He believes that while AI will enhance business operations, the core value will remain in human-centric services and interactions.

9. Economic Policies: Taxation and Inflation

Mark critiques current economic policies, emphasizing how excessive taxation and inflation act as hidden taxes on the populace:

"Inflation is a form of a tax on the people that can least afford it."
(34:38)

He warns that persistent inflation erodes purchasing power and disproportionately affects lower and middle-income individuals.

10. Personal Stories and Ethical Decisions in Investing

Mark shares his personal journey from accumulating debt to managing over $11 billion in assets:

"When I started out, I had an overhead projector and a legal pad... I discovered that the broker dealers didn't care about their clients... I vowed never to do that again."
(09:00)

His ethical stance led him to create a business model focused on transparency and client-centric investment strategies, distancing himself from traditional, often exploitative Wall Street practices.

11. Conclusion and Book Promotion

Towards the end of the episode, Mark promotes his book, Experiencing the American Dream, highlighting contributions from notable figures like Rob Lowe and Arnold Schwarzenegger. He encourages listeners to adopt a purpose-driven approach to investing, where financial decisions align with personal values and life goals.

"A purpose that's greater than money itself gives me the ability to say, this is what my life is about... protect against speculating and gambling."
(22:24)

Mark emphasizes that true financial success stems from disciplined, informed investing rather than chasing risky, high-return schemes.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• On Hedge Funds’ Misleading Returns:

  "Hedge funds will tell you you can make 20, 30% a year... it's the garbage that ends up in these things."
  (00:56)

• On Bitcoin’s Speculative Nature:

  "You're really buying just electrons on the Internet, hoping that somebody... is willing to pay higher price for nothing that you just bought."
  (02:33)

• On Diversification:

  "You want to own the market instead of playing the market."
  (07:29)

• On Human Biases in Investing:

  "Most people end up guessing about what risk they have."
  (18:11)

• On Starting to Invest Early:

  "If you start doing it now, dollar cost average, you're going to have massive amounts of money."
  (30:32)

• On Economic Policies and Inflation:

  "Inflation is never short term because once it gets in there, it's not going back."
  (34:31)

---

Final Thoughts:

Mark Mattson's candid and experience-driven insights shed light on the often murky world of hedge funds and private equity, urging investors to adopt disciplined, ethical, and diversified approaches. His emphasis on understanding human biases, managing risk, and aligning investments with personal purpose serves as a valuable guide for anyone navigating the complexities of the financial landscape. Whether you're skeptical of Wall Street's promises or seeking to fortify your investment strategy, this episode offers pragmatic wisdom and actionable advice to help you achieve your financial aspirations.

Book Recommendation: For those interested in delving deeper into Mark's philosophies and strategies, his book Experiencing the American Dream is available on Amazon and Audible, featuring contributions from Rob Lowe, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and Greg Sinise.

---

This summary encapsulates the core discussions from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't had the chance to listen. For a more immersive experience, tuning into the full episode of Digital Social Hour is highly recommended.

Transcript

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[Mark Mattson]

You look at hedge funds, for example. They'll tell you you can make 20, 30% a year, 40% a year, but think of the math. And they charge you 2% of your money that you invested and then 20% of the gain. And. But if these people knew consistently how to make 20, 30, 40% on the money, they would go to the bank, borrow it at 6, make the 30%, pocket the rest of it, and they for sure wouldn't tell you about the best deals. It's the garbage that ends up in these things. And the way these hedge fund managers work is they'll open up five or ten different hedge funds. One will get lucky, put tons of leverage in it, and then they'll advertise that one while the majority of the funds do just absolutely terrible.

[John]

All right, guys, we got Mark Mattson here from Mattson Money. Thanks for coming on today, man.

[Mark Mattson]

Great to be with you, John.

[John]

Yeah. You enjoying Vegas so far?

[Mark Mattson]

Yeah, we. Well, just got here this morning, but yeah, we're going to stay through the weekend, so.

[John]

Got a fun trip planned. Yeah, it's always a blast here, right? You going to hit the slots after this?

[Mark Mattson]

No, no, that's part of what I do is I help people not gamble with their money. I go to shows. And you enjoy the all the entertainment here. But yeah, stay away from the gambling.

[John]

You stay disciplined, right?

[Mark Mattson]

Yep.

[John]

What about any risky gambling like crypto?

[Mark Mattson]

Oh, since you asked, yeah. Crypto. In the book Experiencing the American Dream is under the section of toxic investments. Toxic investments are things like hedge Funds, private equity. And bitcoin is very dangerous. It's nothing but pure speculation. We're hitting the ground running here.

[John]

We're getting straight into it.

[Mark Mattson]

And the reason is because there's no there there. When you buy a stock, you own piece of a company. When you buy a bond, you own a guarantee from the company to pay you back. When you buy bitcoin, there's no there there. So you're really buying just electrons on the Internet, hoping that somebody. I call it the bigger fool theory. PT Barnum said there's a sucker born every minute. The only reason it goes up is if someone's willing to pay higher price for nothing that you just bought. So it's extremely dangerous, highly speculative. And if you're trying to focus on your American dream, I would advise people to stay far, far away.

[John]

So when you see guys like Michael Sailor saying he'll hit a million one day, does that scare you?

[Mark Mattson]

No. I mean, there's people that thought bit that thought tulip Bobs were going to go until they busted.

[John]

Right.

[Mark Mattson]

You people sometimes have a very short memory when it comes to investing. Even tech stocks in General. Remember from 2000, from 1995 to 2000, tech stocks were up 45% per year for five years running. And then they lost 75% of their value almost overnight.

[John]

Wow.

[Mark Mattson]

So. And you see companies that were giants in their industries, companies like Kodak, companies like Blockbuster back in the day, and they just get destroyed and eventually go away. Boeing was another great example. It's only half of what it was trading for before a bunch of disasters hit them. There's always somebody saying, pumping something. I don't, I don't listen to people like that.

[John]

Yeah, Dell was another one too, right?

[Mark Mattson]

Oh, yeah, Dell. Oh, yeah, big one.

[John]

When I was a kid, Dell was huge. Microsoft was huge too, when I was growing up.

[Mark Mattson]

Yeah.

[John]

Every computer in the school used it. Yeah, you got to be adaptable, I think is the key.

[Mark Mattson]

Yeah. I mean, one of the biggest purveyors of bitcoin, a bitcoin billionaire, recently bought the banana. Remember this picture? The banana stuck to the wall with a piece of duct tape?

[John]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Mark Mattson]

For $6 million. So if you're willing, you're stupid enough to buy a banana stuck to a wall for 6 million and you're supposed to be the bitcoin king. It just tells you where these people's values are.

[John]

So you don't collect any art, do you know?

[Mark Mattson]

Well, if I do have some art, but it's not a banana on a Wall with tape.

[John]

Yeah. Art's always tricky too, because you never know what's going on there.

[Mark Mattson]

I just buy what I like, you know what, what's. You know what? I like to hang in the house.

[John]

Yeah. You mentioned hedge funds and private equity earlier. Weren't the smartest investments?

[Mark Mattson]

No. Well, if you look at, you look at hedge funds, for example, they'll tell you you can make 20, 30 a year, 40% a year, right? But. But think of the math. And they charge you 2% of your money that you invested and then 20% of the gain. And. But if these people knew consistently how to make 20, 30, 40% on the money, they would go to the bank, borrow it at 6, make the 30%, pocket the rest of it, and they for sure wouldn't tell you about the best deals. It's the garbage that ends up in these things. And the way these hedge fund managers work is they'll open up five or ten different hedge funds, one will get lucky, put tons of leverage in it, and then they'll advertise that one while the majority of the funds do just absolutely terrible. One of the biggest investing lies out there is that if you want to be a billionaire, invest like a billionaire. And the reality is that for every billionaire out there, there's tens of thousands, if not millions of people that, that went bankrupt and lost all the money they needed for their dreams.

[John]

Wow. Yeah, when you put it that way, that's perspective, right?

[Mark Mattson]

Yeah.

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[John]

People think they could just follow people's trades or whatever and make a ton of money. But it's not that easy.

[Mark Mattson]

No, it's not. It's not. And you know, hindsight is 20 20. Just because somebody got lucky over the last 10 or 15 years doesn't say anything about their ability to continue to beat the market in the next 15 or 20 years. And if they did know, they wouldn't tell you, Right?

[John]

Is that a goal of yours, to try to beat the market every year?

[Mark Mattson]

No, the goal should be because most people lose to the market by 3 to 5% a year. Once you allocate your portfolio, what you want to do is target the return from that asset category. For example, small international stocks. You want to own stocks in over 70 different countries and then you want to equally weight your portfolio so you're not trying to pick the best stocks. You own the market instead of playing the market. And that's the way to fulfill with getting rid of a ton of risk that most people take.

[John]

Got it. What do you think of the VC world? Super risky, right?

[Mark Mattson]

Absolutely. Any private lending, private equity, hedge funds, bitcoin, all this stuff. If, look, if anything says you're going to get rich overnight, you can also lose your money overnight.

[John]

True. So you don't believe in get rich quick? No, I mean, it took you a long time.

[Mark Mattson]

Yeah. I opened my company up in when I was 27 years old. It was 1991. And I went from zero assets under management to over $11 billion under management. When I started out, I had an overhead projector and a legal pad. That was my marketing material. None of this awesome stuff you have today here.

[John]

Wow. What was that breakthrough year for you? What was that moment where you kind of broke the barriers down?

[Mark Mattson]

Well, I broke the. I went to work as a financial planner doing traditional investing, trying to beat the market. Different mutual funds, different partnerships. It was the 80s, it was the Wall Street. Remember the movie Wall Street?

[John]

Yeah.

[Mark Mattson]

And so it was, you know, try to beat the market, greed is good, all that kind of stuff. And after about three or four years of doing that, I discovered that the broker dealers didn't care about their clients. All they wanted was the money, they didn't care if people didn't repeat their performance. And I discovered at a very young age that instead of helping people prudently invest, we were stock picking, market timing, track record investing. And that was all just gambling with my client's money. And I discovered that in 1991. And I vowed never to do that again and be, and to fight the problem, not be part of it.

[John]

Wow, that's respect, man. Yeah, you could definitely sense it. My mom had a little money manager for a bit, but he didn't care about her.

[Mark Mattson]

No.

[John]

You know, he just wanted his 1 2% or whatever it is.

[Mark Mattson]

Yeah. And they, you know, it's, it's basically based on lies. Markets are extremely. I know that you have a lot of capitalists, a lot of entrepreneurs, young, young people wanting to, you know, make their mark in the world. Capitalism is wonderful. It's a great creator of wealth for people that are willing to add value to other people. And when you look at individual stocks, all the knowable and predictable information about the future is in the price today. Therefore, only random and unpredictable information will change the prices going forward. So anytime someone says, oh, I can pick you the best stocks and I can get you in and out of the market at the right time, you should run the other way. Because either they're delusional or they're lying. And they don't definitely don't understand the academics of investing.

[John]

Right.

[Mark Mattson]

But for most people, that's what they think investing is. That's why they watch the, you know, news programs and the investing programs. They think that if they can somehow get a prediction about the future, that'll allow them to pick all the best stocks today. But there's no academic evidence supporting that at all.

[John]

Really. So you don't trade on the news at all?

[Mark Mattson]

No, no, because it's already in the price. If it, if it's something that you know is going to happen, it's already in the price today. So it's only random and unpredictable information that changes prices going forward. Now the good news is you don't have to do any of those things to be extremely successful. So S&P 500 stocks historically has averaged over 10%. Small US stocks have averaged over 12%. Small value stocks, which almost nobody owns, has averaged over 14% since 1928. So if you look at long periods of time, if you own dimensions of the market instead of trying to beat the market, historically, the returns have been quite good. And then you don't have to worry about trying to predict the future.

[John]

Hmm, that is interesting. 14% is great. I'll take that every year.

[Mark Mattson]

Very few people ever see anything close to that for sure.

[John]

Especially with your aum. It gets harder and harder, right?

[Mark Mattson]

That's right. Well, if you're, if you're one of those people that tell you or tell others that they're going to pick the best stocks, the more money you have under management, the harder it is to find those so called deals out there.

[John]

Right. And that's what happened with my mom, you know, she was so sold on, oh, I'm going to get this percent a year. The guy told me he's going to pick all the best stocks and they got her, man.

[Mark Mattson]

I mean, that's one way they get them. Another way is they just get them in straight up Ponzi schemes like Bernie Madoff.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mark Mattson]

You know, I'm going to make you 10 a year.

[John]

I fell for that too when I was younger.

[Mark Mattson]

It's not going to be volatile. You're just going to get consistently good returns. Yeah, it's a, it's a. The investing industry as a whole is probably one of the dirtiest, darkest industries that are out there.

[John]

I got wrecked on a forex one. Oh my gosh. I'm sure you hear about these Forex scams, right?

[Mark Mattson]

Oh, yeah.

[John]

Oh my gosh. I got played so bad. They a dashboard that showed you how much you were making and stuff. It was all just thin air. Forex industry, that's a tough space to make money in.

[Mark Mattson]

It is.

[John]

It really is so volatile. The prices are changing every second.

[Mark Mattson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John]

I don't know how day traders do that stuff.

[Mark Mattson]

No, most of them don't.

[John]

If they're, if they're selling a course, I mean, what are the odds they're actually.

[Mark Mattson]

Well, that's, well, that's. Oh my gosh. So you sell a course for $250 a month or whatever, a newsletter or a course for $10,000. So think of the insanity of that. I mean, the idea that you're going to be $10,000 and you're going to be a billionaire, right? Yeah, but we're going to take 10,000, we're going to 10 exit to 100, then we're going to 10 exit to a million, then we're going to 10 Exit to. It's. It's all smoke and mirrors. Not true.

[John]

You got.

[Mark Mattson]

They knew they wouldn't tell you for a thousand bucks, Right?

[John]

Yeah. I see these Facebook ads. It's just crazy to me that Facebook allows that to be an ad.

[Mark Mattson]

Yeah. And Instagram and everything.

[John]

Yeah. How much of real estate is in your portfolio?

[Mark Mattson]

Well, that's an interesting question. So we own over 20,000 holdings in 70 countries. So what that means is that a lot of those companies have real estate inside of them, but we don't specifically carve it out and say, okay, we're going to put 10% just in real estate.

[John]

Got it.

[Mark Mattson]

There's no academic research that shows that real estate has a higher expected return than, let's say, s and P500 stocks over time. People love real estate. I view real estate more of a business because if you go buy a business, you know, apartment complex or you go buy a building now, you got to manage the building, you got to lease the building, you got to take care of the building. So I know that people can make a lot of money in it, but I view it more of a business than I really do an investment.

[John]

I agree. I agree. I just bought my first house and, you know, it might appreciate over time, but I'm also spending so much repairing it and doing stuff like, you know, even if I sell it for more money, I already spent that money.

[Mark Mattson]

And you used to be able to write off the interest rate, so if you had like $2,000 a month in interest payments, you used to be able to write that off. Can't do that anymore. You can't take deductions for it like you would an office building. So house, you know, it was a great emotional thing. Hopefully it goes up in value, but maybe not a great investment.

[John]

Yeah, not at all. I didn't view it that way when I got it. We just wanted a safety net.

[Mark Mattson]

Absolutely.

[John]

People always say, like, oh, my house is worth this much, but. Yeah. How much have you spent in between the time you bought it and now?

[Mark Mattson]

That's right.

[John]

You know, you're not making as much by the time.

[Mark Mattson]

And then when you want to improve it, oh, we need a new kitchen. Oh, we need new curtains. Oh, we need.

[John]

Let's talk some investor mistakes, because I believe over 90% of people lose money on stocks and crypto, right? Yeah, a majority of people.

[Mark Mattson]

A majority. I don't know if it's 90, but it just depends on the time period. Right. So from 2008 and 2009, if you own large company stocks, the S and p, you lost 50%. If you own tech stocks, you lost 75%. So it depends. I think a lot of people have gotten lackadaisical because we've had five good years in the road in the market. I think there are a Lot of them are overweighted to the magnificent Seven. You know, you got Tesla, you got Mike, you still have Microsoft, you've got Apple, you got Nvidia. You know, these large, huge companies, they're way overweighted. The S and P itself is overweighted. Almost 30% of the value of the S and P is just sevens companies.

[John]

Wow.

[Mark Mattson]

So it's not really. People tend to think of it as a lot of diversification, but all those stocks tend to be very highly correlated. So when they crash, they crash together. And I think people have largely forgotten what that kind of pain feels like of the 20089 period.

[John]

Right. It's been a good amount of time.

[Mark Mattson]

And then of course, in the COVID in 2020 when it hit for three months, three months in a row, the market was down almost 30 to 40% depending on what stocks you were in.

[John]

Are you trying to predict these crashes or how do you approach potential crashes?

[Mark Mattson]

All the studies say that the market actually is the best predictor of the crash. So it's going to go down before the crash on average.

[John]

Oh, wow.

[Mark Mattson]

It tends to go up before the recovery. So what you have to do is, since you can't accurately predict it with anything like confidence, you have to look at how much risk you're willing to take and say, okay, this is how much I'm going to put in equities. But to the extent that I can't take a full equity risk, you know, maybe you're 60 or 70 or 50 and you don't want to lose half of all your money in equities. So then what you have to do is you have to use high quality short term fixed income and then that offsets the risk. So when those equities crash, the fixed income is up. Then you sell the fixed income to get back to your portfolio target, which ensures without having to predict at all, that you're constantly buying when things are low and you're constantly selling when things are high. So when, when Covid hit. Yeah, you know, we, the market crashed. We sold our clients ballpark around 300 million of fixed income, put it in their equities. Then the market came up, you know, 50%, 40, 50, 60%. When that happened, we sold the, we sold the equities back into the, back into the fixed income. So you're constantly rebalancing and that controls your risk with getting the highest expected return, because the name of the game is highest expected return for whatever risk you're willing to take. And most people have no idea of how to measure risk inside baseball will use standard deviation. The academics use standard deviation as a way to measure it for your statistics majors out there or. So there is a science to doing it. But most people just end up guessing about what risk they have.

[John]

I don't see anyone calculating their risk ever when they're investing. Do you believe in diversification?

[Mark Mattson]

Absolutely.

[John]

You do?

[Mark Mattson]

Well, yeah, absolutely. Um, there are certain risks you get paid for and then there are certain risks that are just risks that you don't. You don't have an expected return for. So if I'm going to buy put let's say 10% of the money in small company stocks.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mark Mattson]

And there's 2,000 in the U.S. market. You showed unstructured piece of that portfolio with all 2,000 stocks in that portfolio because you don't know which ones are going to go big but you also don't know which ones are going to go under. So you want to diversify that and that's why we're in over and you want to also diversify internationally. You don't want all in the US That's a big mistake. I find people doing right now. Oh yeah is they have way over allocated towards us.

[John]

Almost everyone does all us.

[Mark Mattson]

I feel like it's almost all us and they're chasing performance. One of the things I write about in the book is the cognitive problems that all human beings have about how the human brain is put together. Some. Some of those are for example herding bias. And that means that human beings figure it's safe if other people are doing it. And you know hurting is great for zebra. Really bad for human beings when it comes to investing because they end up all dumping all their money and what everyone else is doing. And that's how bubbles get created. So you and you have things like confirmation bias. Once you think something's going to happen you start looking for evidence to confirm your bias and ignore that way to ignore the information that would prove your counter hypothesis 100%.

[John]

I've been victim of that for sure.

[Mark Mattson]

Recency bias. Whatever's been good recently we like to. We weight that more heavily. So we tend to buy and chase things that are hot.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mark Mattson]

And then you have instincts which are largely driven by pain and fear. We, we and. And pleasure. So you try. You tend to chase things that make you feel good and you get afraid when things go down. So those and there's over a hundred different biases that human beings have relative to how they invest. And most people don't even consider that their brain could Subconsciously be building their portfolio.

[John]

Right.

[Mark Mattson]

Instead of what they're, you know, they're not spocking, they're not data from Star Trek. More like Bones or Captain Kirk just emotionally going off.

[John]

So what's some techniques to kind of put those biases to the side, I guess?

[Mark Mattson]

Well, the. That's a great question, boy. So the first thing is you got to acknowledge that you have them. That as a human being, when it comes to investing, you know, investing is relatively new for human beings.

[John]

Right.

[Mark Mattson]

It's not like you can go to a cave in in France and see cave drawings of standard deviation portfolios.

[John]

Right.

[Mark Mattson]

So it's relatively new within the last couple hundred years. But one thing that. So you realize I do have biases and emotions that. And instincts that hurt me. The second is to have a purpose for your money and for your life that is superior to bigger than your tendency to speculate and gamble. Because without a purpose, the default position for money is just more money. The problem with that is money alone can't make you happy. There's nothing inherent in money that actually makes you a happier, more fulfilled person.

[John]

Right.

[Mark Mattson]

In fact, I've seen a lot of people the opposite. The bigger their portfolio gets, the more worry, the more stress, the more anxiety. They can't handle the stress. It makes them feel bad. And then of course, there's greed and fear. So to have a purpose that's greater than money itself then gives me. Gives me the ability to say, this is what my life is about. Maybe it's about freedom, maybe it's about joy, maybe it's about being of service to other people. But it's got to be bigger than the money. Then I can use my money and invest it to fulfill in that purpose, not the other way around. That helps me to protect against speculating and gambling.

[John]

Love it.

[Mark Mattson]

Because if I see. Look, if I. Because if I can come to.

[John]

For.

[Mark Mattson]

So for me, it's helping people fulfilling their dreams by experiencing the American dream as a phenomenon in their life.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mark Mattson]

So I look at that and say, okay, I would never speculate and gamble with my money. You mentioned Vegas coming in here.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mark Mattson]

I would never speculate with my money because that's in direct violation of my purpose for my life. So that helps me stay strong and not fall prey to the gambling, the speculation and all the diatribes and all the Ponzi schemes in the investment world.

[John]

Right.

[Mark Mattson]

Which is so easy to fall into.

[John]

Yeah. And I know you have purpose. You got eight kids, my man.

[Mark Mattson]

I do.

[John]

You got some purpose for sure.

[Mark Mattson]

Yeah. We're not even count. We're not even Catholic.

[John]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Wow.

[Mark Mattson]

Well, she had three, I had three. We got, you know, from our first marriage. We got married, we had. Then she said, we agreed no more kids. Then after we were married for a couple years, she like, I love you so much, I think I need kids. I said, okay.

[John]

It happens, right?

[Mark Mattson]

So that's how we ended up with eight.

[John]

I love that, man. You probably learn a lot from having those kids.

[Mark Mattson]

Still learning.

[John]

I heard they're a mirror of yourself. You kind of learn a lot about yourself.

[Mark Mattson]

And I got one that's that spitting image of me. But we, we have one going all the way up to 34, all the way down to nine.

[John]

Wow. So got every little busy age bracket in there, you know, Gen Z, millennial, all that.

[Mark Mattson]

Yeah.

[John]

That's cool, man. Dude, you just spit so much fire, I don't even know. Oh, I did want to ask about. You mentioned bubble earlier. So the AI industry, you're probably hearing about it every single day, every single hour. Do you think that's a potential bubble?

[Mark Mattson]

I don't know. It's. I don't know if it's a bubble, but I am fascinated by it, truly fascinated. And if you look at. We were talking about the Internet earlier. So, you know, you got the Internet and now you have this situation where you've got AI and you also have quantum computing at the same time.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mark Mattson]

So a regular computer is about a million times faster than a human brain. A quantum computer is exponentially higher than that, roughly a million times faster than a regular computer. So if you. You connect quantum quantum computing with AI and you just have unbelievable futures, and then you combine that with potentially robotics. We got in a Waymo the other day, you know, the cell car. I saw that in Scottsdale.

[John]

I've seen them here. I think they have an office here or something.

[Mark Mattson]

It's crazy. It's surreal. You can't even hardly believe it's happening. You watch this car drive itself, you're going somewhere. So it's going to be fantastic. A lot of the book talks about how you can fulfill in your personal American dream. And so when I think about all these new technologies, what I think about for people, especially young people just starting out to create a business, I believe it's going to be more and more the point that only things that are inherently human will be a business model in the future, especially for aspiring entrepreneurs. Because if it's not, if it's not human, like, for example, coaching and content what you're doing right now, creativity. If it's not something that's. I don't think a robot's going to coach. And we got the super bowl coming up tomorrow. I don't think a robot's going to coach anytime soon. Even with quantum AI and quantum computing, I don't think that's going to happen. I think that's a purely human thing. Human reaction, human interaction, feelings, emotions, intimacy, love, all that, the chaos of being human. I think that human beings are going to have to focus more and more. If you're going to be a successful entrepreneur, you're going to have to use AI, you're going to have to use quantum computing. But the real value, I think will be created like we're doing right now, human being to human being.

[John]

Agreed. Yeah. It's going to be hard for them to replicate emotions for now at least. Yeah. I think could be Sierra in the future. We'll see. But could go Terminator, honest. I wanted to get your opinion on. This guy's one of the biggest podcasters, Dave Ramsey.

[Mark Mattson]

Yeah.

[John]

His whole philosophy. What do you think about being debt free?

[Mark Mattson]

Look, I think, I think, I don't know, two, two problems with Dave Ramsey. I'm sure he does a lot of good things. Number one is I don't think that you should lead with God. I think it's sacrilegious, quite frankly. I, you know, it said don't use God's name in vain. Using God's name to make money, I think is counter, counter to scriptures. And I think it would be better if he didn't do it. But number two is, look, when I started my company up, we managed $11 billion. I have 70 employees, 500 advisors, 72,000 accounts, money in over 70 different countries. But when I started out, I started off with $30,000 of debt. I had three credit cards, all three maxed out.

[John]

Wow.

[Mark Mattson]

And I took my retirement account and I cashed it in. I've borrowed money for houses, you know, when I, you know, for my family. So I'm not a staunch. Don't ever have any leverage, don't ever have any debt. I don't believe in it. The other thing that Dave talks a lot about is he talks a lot about beating the market and constantly earning 12% and being able to try to find the active managers, which I say is gambling. And I think he hurts people doing that. And then the final thing that a lot of people don't know is he uses his radio show to make money by handing out leads to Other advisors that sign up underneath him.

[John]

Wow.

[Mark Mattson]

And he gets a percentage of the commissions and the fees that are charged. So he's using his platform to send people to these advisors. And I don't think he's very above board about actually telling people what's going on.

[John]

Wow.

[Mark Mattson]

So. So here's my little diatribe on Dave.

[John]

Yeah, no, I mean, I agree with a lot of that. I think overall, he's a net positive, but he definitely has some of those things you mentioned.

[Mark Mattson]

Yeah, for sure. People can get over leveraged, and people can get, you know, massive credit card debt and a bunch of stuff, and it'd be better if they, you know, didn't do that. For sure. Take a little bit with the good, with the bad.

[John]

Yeah. I've been over leveraged, man. Has that happened to you ever?

[Mark Mattson]

Well, when I first started out 30.

[John]

Well, it worked out.

[Mark Mattson]

It worked out. It worked out.

[John]

Yeah. That's cool, man. So you just had the conviction in yourself. You were confident it would. It would pan out?

[Mark Mattson]

Well, I had. I had. I had no choices because I knew that I could never go back to gambling with my client's money. Stock picking, market timing, track record, investing. I knew it was wrong. I knew I was hurting people. I knew my broker, dealer didn't care. So it was either create a new business model at the time that had never been tried before, or just go out of the business and do something completely unrelated. And there was no business model at the time that would allow me to do what I've done today. But I. But my. My moral conscious. I had a state change when I learned that that was all gambling. And I just had a commitment where I would never go back to that again.

[John]

Wow, that's deep, Matt. You put ethics before money is basically what I'm hearing.

[Mark Mattson]

There's a lot of. It's much easier in the investment industry to kind of fool people, bait them, seduce them, than it is to actually educate and train them to think critically about investing and their choices and their true purpose for their money and their life. It's a lot easier to just show them, hey, this has made 40% over the last three years. Don't you want some?

[John]

I agree.

[Mark Mattson]

That's what most people do.

[John]

Yeah. Because money's very emotional for people because, you know, 62% of people live paycheck to paycheck. So you tell them you can make them some money. You know, they're all ears. They're.

[Mark Mattson]

They're all in.

[John]

Yeah. Wow. That's cool, man. What's your Advice to just, I guess, regular people making 50, 100k a year on how to start investing.

[Mark Mattson]

The number one thing is to start, start now. That's another thing you talked about, Dave Ramsey. I don't believe you should wait to invest until all your credit cards are paid off. You know, if you have 10,000 or $20,000 in credit cards and you're not putting in 400amonth in your 401k or you're not putting, you know, you know, $500 away in your, in your own investment account or your Iraq. Look, if you start doing it now, you, dollar cost average, you're going to have massive amounts of money. If you wait 10 years to get everything paid off before you start investing, I think that's a huge mistake. So number one, start. Number two, start in something that's low cost. Don't stock, pick, don't market time, don't put Robinhood on your phone.

[John]

Too many fees. Right.

[Mark Mattson]

Don't be getting buzzes in your pocket and trading. Avoid all that stuff and then create. You know, if you're making 50 or 100,000 in a company, what you want to do is look at your boss, look at the CEO. If it's a smaller company, you know, the CEO, and find out what's really going to be value for that company. And don't be afraid to start at the bottom. So many people want to start at the top now because good talent and hard work will be seen by the entrepreneur, will be seen by the people in the company and, and you can end up being, you know, almost running the company, being the president of the company. But, you know, some of my early jobs, you know, cleaning carpet and.

[John]

Wow.

[Mark Mattson]

And you know, in the college and, you know, dog runs, cleaning dog runs and a lot of physical labor.

[John]

I bet you had humble beginnings.

[Mark Mattson]

Oh, man. We were born in West Virginia up in the hills and the hollers. And we really came from a lot of destitute poverty. My dad grew up right by their railroad tracks.

[John]

Wow.

[Mark Mattson]

They had to take the tops off of Instant Carnation milk cans in the winter and nail them to the baseboards so that the rats wouldn't come into their house.

[John]

Gee.

[Mark Mattson]

I mean, it was. They had one, he had one pair of shoes a year right before school started. And then they'd run out and they'd outgrown by the time summer would. Then he'd be barefoot. Dad worked in the coal mines and the chemical factories.

[John]

Wow.

[Mark Mattson]

And so he, My dad gave me the, the American dream as a screen, as the Way you see the world of freedom and opportunity, we live in one of the greatest, I think actually the greatest country that the world has ever seen. The American dream is much more possible now than it was several months ago.

[John]

I agree with, for sure.

[Mark Mattson]

And, but it's a, it's an honor, honor to be in this country. And we should be grateful every day to have the freedoms to create a company, the freedoms to speak your mind, freedom to create whatever happiness and joy you define it as. You know, you don't have that in Iran, you don't have it in Russia, you don't have it in Cuba, you don't have it in Venezuela. There's so many countries you have anything like that. We should be the leader in the world of freedom and capitalism and free markets. And I see what's happened over the last couple of months as a big move back to that. And you should also be able to create your company and your values in the world without it being confiscated in the form of taxes.

[John]

Right.

[Mark Mattson]

You know, you, you can easily, with Social Security and other Medicare taxes and regular income tax, you can easily pay half of your income in taxes. And then when you buy real estate, like you mentioned the home, then you got to pay more taxes. They want half of it. When you make it, earn it, they want you invest it, then they want half of it. If it's dividends when, when you get the returns. And then if you die without good estate planning, you know, their goal is to get half again.

[John]

So.

[Mark Mattson]

Half, half, half, half. So it's, it's confiscatory, it's detrimental to capitalism and it's, you know, people coming in say they, the government says they can know more, Sean, of how to spend your money than you do.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mark Mattson]

And how to create a bigger difference. I don't believe that.

[John]

I don't know if you've seen what Doge has found out already about some of the money spent. It's horrific.

[Mark Mattson]

I did, yeah. With the U.S. aid.

[John]

Yeah. Those are our tax dollars.

[Mark Mattson]

Oh, it's, it's horrifying.

[John]

I mean, what money's going for, that's hard earned money. People work for going to that.

[Mark Mattson]

And it created and created under the Biden administration, massive inflation. People don't think of inflation as a tax, but inflation is a form of a tax on the people that can least afford it.

[John]

Right.

[Mark Mattson]

You know, if you're, you know, you make million dollars a year, you're only going to have so many cheeseburgers, only fill up your gas tan can so much. Only going to eat so much food, that really hurts the people that are in lower class and lower middle class. But if you have wealth and you have inflation, your value of your house might go up, your cars might go up, your business value might go up. So it hurts the people the worst. Inflation is a terrible form of tax on people.

[John]

No, that's a good point, man. My grocery bill has probably doubled in the past three years.

[Mark Mattson]

Just like that.

[John]

Just like that. I mean, eggs are 12 bucks now.

[Mark Mattson]

And I was asked on TV, you know, what is the inflation transitory? And transitory is a fancy word for, is it short term? Yeah, inflation is never short term because once it gets in there, it's not going back. That year, that was 9%. It's not going to go down 9%. That's mean it was short term. Right. Once it goes up, it stays up. Now, you might slow the rate of inflation, but inflation's here to stay. Historically, it's been about three, little over 3%. Yeah, 9%'s three times nor what the average is. But I remember in 72 and 73, 74, inflation was up 13, 14%.

[John]

Damn.

[Mark Mattson]

So we better, we better keep the spending under control. I hope Doge works well. I hope they get more, more spending out. We have to pay our bills, we have to balance our budget initially, eventually, or we end up going into massive inflation.

[John]

Yeah. Are you offended these tariffs Trump's imposing on other countries?

[Mark Mattson]

Well, it's a fascinating question in theory. I'm not a fan of tariffs because I believe in free trade. However, Dr. Dr. Art Laffer, who helped engineer the Reagan recovery, is on our academic board. He works directly with Trump and his team. I think it's more of a leverage.

[John]

Got it.

[Mark Mattson]

It's a leverage chip and you can see it's already working. It's working on Mexico. When you say, look, we're going to charge, we're going to give you a 25% tariff if you don't shut down the border, if you don't, you know, stop all of these people coming over the border with crime if you don't help us stop these cartels. And look what, look at what Canada and Mexico did. Almost like that. They're like, oh, okay, okay, okay, okay. So I don't think he really thinks they're going to stay in place. I think he's using it as a way to say, hey, stop your nonsense, stop what you're doing. America's borders are free, our country's free, and people can come here, but they have to come here. The Right way. No countries exist. Not Rome, not Carthage, not the Ottomans. None. No. No civilization exists without firm borders. And that same thing goes for the United States of America.

[John]

Yeah. If there's anyone I trust to negotiate on our behalf, I mean, Trump's up there.

[Mark Mattson]

He's. He's the boss when it comes to negotiation.

[John]

He wrote a book on it, the.

[Mark Mattson]

Art of the Deal. Yeah, I think I read that in high school.

[John]

Same classic, though, still applies to this day.

[Mark Mattson]

He knows how to negotiate.

[John]

He does. You got to give him that. Are you worried about bricks at all?

[Mark Mattson]

Not really.

[John]

Not really?

[Mark Mattson]

No. No. I mean, look, Europe. Europe is Europe. I think. I think as Trump puts more and more pressure on free markets here and lets the world know that we want allies, but at the same time, we want strong allies that are going to trade with free trade and help, you know, with these wars and things.

[John]

Right.

[Mark Mattson]

I'm much more focused on we have to stop the wars. We have to stop the war of Israel and terrorists. And that's what they are. They're not Palestinians, they're terrorists sponsored by Iran, who hates. Who. Who hates Israel, who hates America. Their goal is to destroy Israel and destroy America.

[John]

Wow.

[Mark Mattson]

And that's clear because they say it. Death to America. Death to America. It's pretty obvious what they want to do, but you got to stop that and you got to stop Russia. And I. I think you do that by making the world a more free place. And nobody wants to go up against Trump. It's like. It's like the crazy kid at school. Nobody knows. Like, dancing with the Cobra.

[John]

Yeah.

[Mark Mattson]

Nobody knows exactly what he wants to do or what he's going to do. So I think. I think. I think world leaders are afraid of him, and I think rightfully so.

[John]

I'm with you on that. I know they say war is good for economy and stuff, but. No, I'd love to see some peace.

[Mark Mattson]

No peace. We got to have peace and peace. Peace through strength. Reagan said it, Reagan achieved it. And I think that my hope is that Trump will achieve it, too, before his term is out.

[John]

It's looking good already. I mean, it's ceasefire, right? Within the first week.

[Mark Mattson]

Ceasefire, hostages coming back, Russia kind of, you know, pausing a little bit. I don't think anybody wants to mess with them. Yeah, I really don't.

[John]

I love that. Obviously, the US Dollar, you know, they printed a ton of it during COVID Are you still confident we can remain the number one currency over time?

[Mark Mattson]

I am. You know, but, you know, I don't think that's that important. And the reason is because every, every market trades in all different currencies and they're in their fluid. So already the, the US currency is a standard by which we go by, but in reality, there's so many different currencies. That's another reason you should diversify your portfolio. Because you don't want all of your stocks just in the US dollar. You want it in different currencies all throughout the world. That gives you better diversification.

[John]

Smart. I never thought of that. Yeah, but I know the Euro has had its issues too in the past, right?

[Mark Mattson]

Well, you had people abandoning Brexit, remember? They got, they left it. So every, look, your currency is going to be strongest when you don't have debt, when you don't have too much debt, when you're controlling your spending, when your government can be trusted. That's, that's when your, your currency is going to be strong. When you, when you have massive spending on programs that produce nothing and you have massive taxes associated with that and deficits, that's when you're going to get into a weaker dollar. That's when you get into inflation. And I think that's to a large extent why people voted this administration in and through the last group of bums out.

[John]

I mean, our debt is crazy. Holy crap.

[Mark Mattson]

What's insane?

[John]

I mean, I don't even know what it's at now, but I know it's, it's stupid. I mean, hopefully Doge can help. I don't know how much help they.

[Mark Mattson]

Can really do, but they're, they're people aren't warning. I mean, I, I, it's pretty good shutting down whole departments right now.

[John]

Well, DEI is gone, so that's a good start, man.

[Mark Mattson]

That's history, bro.

[John]

Yeah. That's why like DEI never made sense to me because as business owners, we care about performance.

[Mark Mattson]

I told, I told my employees, you know, and we have a lot of diversity in our company. But I always tell everybody in our team and team meetings, I said the best way to get diversity is to hire the best people.

[John]

Right?

[Mark Mattson]

Because if you hire the best people, you'll have great diversity. And then everybody in your company will know that I'm here because this is the best mark could find. And I'm part of an elite team based on merit. Because being an entrepreneur is a contact sport. It is more like war than it is just competition, right? There's a guy out there, there's a girl out there trying to create a business that's going to take your business out. They're trying to mutate your ideas, they're trying to evolve. They want to take market share. They don't care if you lose your mortgage. They don't care if you lose your company. They don't care if you can't send your kids to private school. And so you better have the best team you can possibly field, especially as an entrepreneur, because if you don't, you will get your lunch handed to you. And if you're the federal government, maybe you can have some bureaucracy in there, but you can't as an entrepreneur. And so all of my employees know that they are there because they're the best I could possibly find. And I think we have wonderful diversity in our company, but it's not because we went in there and artificially made it happen.

[John]

Right?

[Mark Mattson]

There are so many brilliant, awesome people in the world. Just hire the best ones based on merit and you'll have a great diverse company.

[John]

Well, that's why America's great, because we got the best of the best from every country.

[Mark Mattson]

You know, nobody's leaving America to go to Mexico, nobody's crossing the border to go to Canada. Nobody's getting on a rickety boat to go to Cuba. You know, people that call our country, you know, racist or misogynistic or whatever they want to call us, but everybody wants to come here.

[John]

My mom did it, man. Came here with 20 bucks.

[Mark Mattson]

Where'd she come from?

[John]

From China. She scrubbed floors in the kitchen, didn't know English, worked her way up to become a self made millionaire.

[Mark Mattson]

Total American dream.

[John]

Isn't that crazy? Same with my dad.

[Mark Mattson]

Total American dream.

[John]

Yeah. You can't do that in many countries.

[Mark Mattson]

Oh no.

[John]

Maybe you could count it on one hand.

[Mark Mattson]

Yeah, you'd be lucky. Yeah, you'd be so lucky.

[John]

And I see people on social media complaining about living here. I mean, it was under Biden, so that I'll give them that. I haven't seen much lately.

[Mark Mattson]

That's what I love about you. When you DM me, I was like, who is this guy? Let me, let me check out. And I was like a young guy dynamic. Got all this great stuff set up and totally looks conservative to me. Yeah. And blew me away. I think, dude, you're doing a great service by helping young people understand entrepreneurism, capitalism, Working hard.

[John]

Thank you.

[Mark Mattson]

The work ethic, you're. You're a role model.

[John]

Yeah. That means a lot, man. I can't wait to read your book. Where can people watching this find your book? And keep up with you, man.

[Mark Mattson]

Yeah. So Amazon. You can get it it's called Experiencing the American Dream. Rob Lowe wrote the introduction for me. Arnold Schwarzenegger, Greg Sinise wrote part of the book, the section about the American Dream. So got a lot of people on board with it. Also have an audio version you can get on Audible any place you. And I'm really proud of that because they wanted an actor to do it. I said, no, no, I'm doing it myself.

[John]

That wasn't easy.

[Mark Mattson]

Oh, it was like 38 hours. Holy. In. In the studio, just hammering it out. Damn it. It. It edits down to 11, but it was 38 in the studio. So if you like to listen instead of read. Guys, check it out.

[John]

Yeah, check it out, guys. I'm going to listen to it and post my thoughts on my Instagram. So definitely stay on the lookout for that. Thanks for watching.

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