The Ultimate Collectible Revolution: Are You Missing Out? | Josh Luber DSH #891

Summary

Digital Social Hour Podcast Summary
Episode: The Ultimate Collectible Revolution: Are You Missing Out? | Josh Luber DSH #891
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Josh Luber
Release Date: November 15, 2024

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Introduction to Josh Luber and Ghost Rite

In this episode of the Digital Social Hour, Sean Kelly welcomes Josh Luber, a renowned entrepreneur and the visionary behind several successful ventures in the collectibles market, including StockX and Fanatics Collectibles. Josh introduces his latest venture, Ghost Rite, positioning it as the evolution of the iconic Bear Brick collectible toy franchise.

Notable Quote:
Josh Luber (01:24):
"This is the best part. Now you have a company where I can actually put it on the table right here."

Ghost Rite: Reinventing Collectible Toys

Josh delves into the essence of Ghost Rite, highlighting its foundational roots in Bear Brick while emphasizing its unique evolution. Unlike Bear Bricks, Ghost Rite offers a blank canvas with no predetermined faces or genders, allowing limitless creativity. The recent release features NBA basketball-themed figures, including notable collaborations like Asia Wilson, marking a significant expansion into the WNBA.

Notable Quote:
Josh Luber (02:19):
"It's an evolution of Bear Brick. It's a collectible toy company after running other much larger businesses, now I get to create a brand and create a product and so that's fun."

Collectibility and Grading: The Heart of Value

A significant portion of the conversation centers around the importance of grading in the collectibles market. Josh explains how grading companies like PSA and AFA have revolutionized the valuation and trading of collectibles by standardizing condition assessments, thereby enhancing trust and market efficiency.

Notable Quote:
Josh Luber (04:33):
"If you have one that's really valuable, you can send it to PSA. They will encapsulate it and then send it back."

Comparisons with Funko Pop and Market Dynamics

Sean shares his own experience as a Funko Pop collector, prompting Josh to compare Ghost Rite with Funko. While Funko caters to a broad audience with mass-produced items, Ghost Rite focuses on scarcity and exclusivity, ensuring each collectible has a transparent and limited production run to maintain its value.

Notable Quote:
Josh Luber (19:15):
"That's why I like the Funko sodas a little more because it actually does show the total amount of them."

The Evolution and Impact of StockX

Josh provides an insightful retrospective on StockX, the marketplace he co-founded, which revolutionized the sneaker and collectibles market by introducing a single product page and ensuring authentication. This innovation streamlined the buying and selling process, effectively eliminating the traditional "chicken and egg" problem of marketplaces.

Notable Quote:
Josh Luber (11:22):
"Grading changed the game. When you were at StockX, were they selling collectibles yet or is that a newer thing?"

Navigating Market Booms and Busts

The discussion shifts to the volatile nature of the collectibles market, touching upon the boom during the pandemic and the subsequent market corrections. Josh emphasizes the interplay between supply and demand, the role of digital assets like NFTs, and the importance of maintaining scarcity to preserve value.

Notable Quote:
Josh Luber (17:08):
"It has to go back to the norm and so that's fine. We all wish we could have sold more rather than bought."

Transition to Fanatics Collectibles

Josh narrates his strategic move from StockX to Fanatics Collectibles, detailing the acquisition of trading card licenses and the expansion into a broader range of sports memorabilia. This transition was marked by high-stakes negotiations and the establishment of dominant relationships within the sports industry.

Notable Quote:
Josh Luber (36:20):
"We had to walk away because I didn't want to try to run a $10 billion company."

The Future of Collectibles and Ghost Rite

Concluding the episode, Josh outlines his vision for Ghost Rite, positioning it at the intersection of traditional collectibles and modern digital trends. By ensuring transparency in production and leveraging partnerships with prominent leagues and players, Ghost Rite aims to redefine the collectible landscape for the next generation.

Notable Quote:
Josh Luber (42:12):
"Ghostrite.com or you know, ghostwrite on Instagram. But December 10th is the big WNBA release. This will be a big deal."

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Key Takeaways

• Grading & Authenticity: Standardized grading systems are crucial for maintaining trust and value in the collectibles market.
• Scarcity vs. Accessibility: Balancing limited production runs with widespread appeal is essential to preserve value without alienating fans.
• Market Dynamics: Understanding and navigating the cyclical nature of supply and demand can determine the longevity and success of a collectible brand.
• Strategic Transitions: Moving from marketplace platforms like StockX to specialized ventures like Fanatics Collectibles requires strategic foresight and robust industry relationships.
• Future Innovations: Ghost Rite aims to blend traditional collectible values with modern digital trends, ensuring relevance in an evolving market.

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Conclusion

This episode of Digital Social Hour offers a deep dive into the evolving world of collectibles through the lens of Josh Luber, a pioneer in the field. From the intricacies of grading and market dynamics to strategic business transitions, listeners gain valuable insights into creating and sustaining value in the digital age. Whether you're an avid collector or an entrepreneur looking to navigate the fast-paced digital landscape, Josh's experiences provide actionable takeaways and inspiration.

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Find Out More:

• Ghost Rite Website: ghostrite.com
• Instagram: @ghostwrite
• Upcoming Release: WNBA set dropping December 10th

Transcript

[A]

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[C]

So privileged to sit next to him and watch that happen. It's not to be hyperbolic, right? But, like, you can't appreciate how good of A basketball player LeBron is until you sit on the floor next to him and see how big it is and see how he moves and all that. And it's kind of the same thing. Like, I can't explain to you how good of a deal maker is, except that I sat next to him for a year and watched it and was just impressed every single day.

[A]

All right, guys, Digital Social hour with Josh Luber here today with a new company. Thanks for coming on, man. It's going to be a fun one.

[C]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

Yeah. So explain what's going on here. They look like bear bricks, right?

[C]

This is the best part. Now you have a company where I can actually put it on the table right here. You know, we started StockX. I can't put the whole marketplace in front of the table. So if you're familiar with bear bricks, Bear bricks are the longest running, most successful collectible toy franchise. Ghost Rite is an evolution of bear brick. Ghosts like bears, there is no face, there is no gender. Right. It's a blank canvas. It can be whatever you want it to be. We had a release last week that it was an NBA basketball, same three sizes as bear brick, which is 2 inches, 11 inches, kind of the standard and then the big one. But the new one coming out is a WNBA set and actually brought a couple, couple of them, including, since we're in Vegas, Asia Wilson. So this will be a big deal. This is the new one coming out. But short version is it's evolution of bear brick. It's A collectible toy company after running other much larger businesses, now I get to create a brand and create a product and so that's fun.

[A]

I love it. Sounds like you're in your creative element.

[C]

Hell yeah.

[A]

Let's go. I'm a big Funko pop collector, so you might have have a new addiction for me to look at, noona.

[C]

Hell yeah. We could level you up from Funko Pop a little bit. You know Funko is like Funko's like wide and large. Not a whole lot of like super valuable Funkos. You don't yet, so it's good. But you know Funko every single IP you could ever imagine.

[A]

So they do have a lot of. Yeah, a lot of. That's my only qualm with it. So many of them.

[C]

Well so is there a specific category that you collect? Because you can't collect.

[A]

I started off just broad, but now I just collect rare ones. So I won't collect the commons.

[C]

Yeah, there's just too many.

[A]

Cuz there's just too many, dude. My whole wall in my media room there's 500 Funkos.

[C]

So and so you're keeping them in the box. You're.

[A]

I keep them in the box.

[C]

You have them graded by psa, you know, PSA grades Funk.

[A]

I didn't know they graded them now. No, I have them in the box but I don't take them out because they lose value.

[C]

Totally. Well, so this is a really relevant part of this conversation which is if you look at StockX, the company I created after that, which is fanatics Collectibles, which is trading car business, collectible toys, Funko Ghost, Right Bear, These are all the exact same thing. They're all products that are supply and demand based. They're collectors and resale value and scarcity and condition. And for trading cards, psa, which is leading grading company for trading cards, completely changed the way the value that we value trading cards. Right. And they're trying to do that for collectible toys. PSA grades Funko Pop. So if you have one that's really valuable, you can send it to psa. They will encapsulate it and then send it back. Now the condition of a Funko Pop that's in a box is kind of. It's not really debatable. It's. It's not like trading cards. We have that. So but anyway, so there's another company called AFA which specializes just in collectible toys. They really do more like Star Wars, GI Joe, he man, like all the like you know, vintage toys and actually so for Ghost, right. We have a partnership with afa. So like if you get a rare ghost. So like this is actually an Angel Reese Rookie ghost, it actually says like an R on our chest and then the B variant. So there's like, you know, there's like a gold version number to 10 and a Chrome version number five. It's just like trading cards. So if you pull a rare, you know, the Angel Reese one of one Rookie Ghost or the Caitlin Clark one of one, you can actually have it sent to AFA to be graded in the same way. Like if you pull Wemby Rookie out of a pack of tops, you can send it to PSA to have it graded.

[A]

Nice.

[C]

So like that, that like intersection of grading and collectibility, like that's the key to all of this.

[A]

That's what makes it fun. Yeah. When you can search for the rare one. So these you buy and it comes randomly and then people see what they get.

[C]

Yeah. Well, so all the releases so far have been 11 inch versions. Super limited. We sell direct on on Ghost. Right. But coming in December, this is the first blind box set. So you will buy a case that has 12 ghosts in it. They're all individually boxed and you don't know who you're going to get. Right. It's just like trading cards. And most of them are the base which is, you know, number to 800 says on the bottom exactly how many. But then you could maybe get the rare chase elements. You can get the gold one number to 10 or the one of one that's fire. Right. So I mean, this is exactly the way that trading cards work. Right? I mean it's just, it's a lotto. You're. You're hoping you get the really rare card. And in fact, most of the way that we will sell this one is actually through all the top trading card breakers. So Backyard Breaks and Blaze and David Adams, all the people that break trading cards will break ghostwrite WNBA because again, like everyone's just going to try to get those big hits and the biggest hit will be the Caitlin Clark one of one rookie Ghost. That'll be the best of the best. We'll see what that goes for. Is it 50 grand? Is it 100 grand? I don't know, but I think it's going to be a lot.

[A]

Let's go. Yeah, those card breakers are different. This episode.

[B]

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[C]

Okay, thank you.

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How did you.

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[A]

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[C]

Hell yeah.

[A]

All day, every day.

[C]

I mean they're 24 7.

[A]

Crushing it too.

[C]

They're the probably the only people more prolific than you are on camera.

[A]

They're on camera more than me. Yeah, not many people could say that. I'm friends with a couple of them. Shout out to Daps Sports. Those are my guys. I film at their studio in LA.

[C]

Daps are one of the. There are 10 people, 10 breakers that are breaking for us for the release. And Daps is one of them.

[A]

I love it. Yeah, great. People over there shout out to Matt. Oh, yeah, yeah. Collectibles is a good thing because it's nostalgic for me. Funkos bring back a lot of memories.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

And I feel just like so passionate about collecting stuff like that.

[C]

That's right. Well, you're a little bit younger than me, so like that's exactly like Funko because they're so wide and have. So they can find exactly what is like nostalgic to you. Yeah, right. A lot of this and trading cards and collectible toys. Like so I'm 46. We have this, this generation gap that's happening right now where we all grew up, you know, with Michael Jordan, you know, as the center of the universe. And we all wanted Air Jordans. And when none of us could afford Air Jordans and our mom wouldn't buy Air Jordan sus, we got some money. Like we all have the exact same story. So now we're sor of moving beyond that. And you have, for example, you know, you being able to collect Funkos. And so now we get to create the products for the next generation. So, you know, that's kind of the evolution of collectibles.

[A]

Absolutely. I've seen you say on another show actually that comic books and old video games have been going up in value.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, look, I mean all this happened, you know, during the pandemic and a lot of things went up in value that, that came back down in value. But like anything, you know, value, scarcity and you know, there's a grading company for both of those. There's a grading company for comic books. The leading is csg. There's a leading grading company for video games. The leading is called Wata w a T A And same thing. You know, I forget what the exact number is, but the like the best graded Super Mario 1, I think sold for like 1.1, 1.2 million. Yeah, right. Same thing. It's like, you know, super rare. Only a few are in the highest condition. It's, you know, it's graded. And by psa, the trading card company bought wada. Right. As they figure out how to grade more things and do it. Same thing. They all fit in the same category.

[A]

Yeah. PC A has been buying a few companies, right? A few grading companies. Yeah, yeah. They got a. They got Their hand on everything.

[C]

Yeah, they bought sgc, which was kind of the number three company. And so, yeah, you know, they're very well run company. And you know, the grading part is really kind of the standard that sets all this. It allows us to buy and sell collectibles and sell, buy and sell collectibles to each other. Like we were buying and selling stocks or any sort of asset. Right. Because before if I'm selling you some rare baseball card, I want to sell you my, my Mickey Mantle 1952 tops rookie. You would have to look at it, inspect it, figure out is it real, has it been cut? And then we would argue over the condition and the value. Right now PSA grades it. It's a PSA 5. Man on 52 tops. PSA 5 is a PSA 5. You don't even have to see it. You just say, hey, we know the PSA is fours go for X. Psa, you know, sixes go for Y. So PSA fives are Z and that's a price. So that's really why all this grew because it just seemed so easy for people to buy and sell because it was graded, because it was standardized.

[A]

Absolutely, yeah. Grading changed the game. When you were at StockX, were they selling collectibles yet or is that a newer thing?

[C]

Yeah, so when we started StockX, obviously we started with just sneakers. We then were always looking for what other products to put on the site. We added watches and handbags next, then streetwear and then collectible toys in like mid 2018. So we started StockX in beginning of February 2016. So. So actually it was, it was almost two years before we added. And frankly we should have added it earlier, but overnight, as soon as we added toys to StockX, which started with Cause and Bear Brick, overnight we became the largest sellers of Cause and Bear Brick because it was just a very fragmented market. There wasn't a place where you could get it. Right. So anyway, you know, Now I think StockX is still the leader for all those categories. Wow.

[A]

And now they're doing sports cards and action figures and toys. Right. So interesting. Yeah. I never realized how big the collectible market was until I got into trading cards, Pokemon and sports basketball.

[C]

Pokemon, perfect example. Right. A little before my time or excuse me, a little after my time, but sort of. Right. Probably in your generation. And yeah, Pokemon cars, also extremely valuable.

[A]

Man, if I could go back in time and keep those.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

I had a lot of good ones. Dude, you never got into those.

[C]

Nope. It was just like it was a Timing thing. Right. It was like I was already in college and, you know, we sort of all put our cards away for a little bit or we thought we were growing up and then we get back and become kids again or, you know.

[A]

Right. What was hot for you when you were kids? Was it. Was it sports cards or.

[C]

Yeah. So, you know, I. In 1991, I started high school. So it was like 1980. I started collecting 1984. So, you know, it's that like six years before high school, right. Where, you know, you're super into cards and, you know, you're not into girls, you're not into partying, you're not, you know, and, you know, and that coincided with what we call the junk wax era for trading cards, where the whole trading card just market just blew up in like the late 80s, early 90s. And then come like 92, 93. People understood that there was so much supply and then the whole market crashed. And so that era was very much sort of a course. So for me it was like Ken Griffey Jr. Rookie, 1989 upper deck, like, that was like the card of the card. Everyone my age had a. Or still has a Ken Griffey Jr. 1989 upper deck. That's the card.

[A]

Wow. So he was like super common. So even though he was one of the best players of all time, the card wasn't worth a lot.

[C]

So that's the point. So that card, which is. Is. Was basically the most valuable card at the time, is basically worth today the same thing that was worth in 1990. Wow. And that's because there were so many. It's actually the most graded card in all of PSA. I think there's something like, I don't know, 50,000 that have been graded. Right. So but if you have a PSA 10, which is the highest condition, which is a little bit more rare because it's the highest condition, you know, that still today is worth maybe about fifteen hundred dollars. But, you know, you can buy a. Just an ungraded one for 20 bucks.

[A]

Yeah, that makes sense. What's the most you spent on a collectible?

[C]

A lot. A lot.

[A]

Five figures. Six figures.

[C]

Six figures.

[A]

Damn.

[C]

Six figures, not seven figures. We all lived through the craziness of 20 and 21 and the run up after the pandemic and valuations were just absolutely crazy. And so, you know, the car that I spent the most on is actually, I think, still worth, if not that much, probably close to it, which was. It's one of the rarest Pele rookies It's a Pele rookie and it's in PSA 8 which is extremely. The cards from 1962. But yeah, it was a lot.

[A]

So you're a soccer fan?

[C]

Yeah. So that's. I'm not. I just thought that was a really great deal considering all the other stuff that was going crazy in value. I wanted to try to, when I was, if I was going to make a really, really big purchase, I wanted it to be like the most solid thing I can think of. And it was a PSA8 and I think there's only like three PSA nines, which means there's only three car, three versions of that car that are better.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

In the whole world. And I just figured just the scarcity and Pele being who he is and everything else. So that was a, I was a, that was a unique experience. But I also, I don't, I don't regret it. But. Yeah, probably not. Probably not time to sell it.

[A]

Those years were crazy. I remember when Jordan rookies were going for what, half a million?

[C]

Well, what happened was like, we can all look back now, the peak of the peak. I forget the exact month, but there was an auction on Golden Auctions where two 1986 FLIR Jordan Rookies PSA 10 sold for $720,000 each on the same day. And, and that everybody just started saying what the fuck? Like, like this is just crazy. And, and, and that was like the peak of the whole market. But you know, it wasn't just collectibles a lot of times and it, you know, wasn't, by the way, it wasn't just NFTs, it wasn't just crypto, you know, it was the whole economy that did that. And all of the valuations of all of our companies went up and so then everybody had more money and so we were paying more money for things. You know, at StockX, the last public round valuation of StockX was 3.9 billion.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

But there were private rounds that happened, you know, way higher than that during the run up. And again that's just a function of the macro economy. And so it's kind of all relative. But you know, we're obviously, we're never seeing that again. That was crazy.

[A]

That bubble was not Silicon Valley bubble. Companies were raising money pre revenue, hundreds of millions. Yeah, yeah. I mean it's probably a good thing in the long run. Right. We can only inflate stuff so long.

[C]

Totally. Yeah. I mean it has to go back to the norm and so that's fine. We all wish we could have sold more rather than bought.

[A]

But especially me, man, I had a lot of crypto, a lot of good NFTs, a lot of trading cards.

[C]

Well, right now, if you're holding, I mean, bitcoin's been on a run the last two days.

[A]

Great. With, with the new presidency. I saw that coming actually. I think it would have went the other way if Kamala got elected.

[C]

Well, right. That was the thing. Right. It was like it was either going to 80 or 60, like, you know.

[A]

So are you big in crypto?

[C]

I have a little bit. I certainly wouldn't say I'm big, but during that run up, I try to diversify out of just, you know, being an entrepreneur and having, you know, two companies that have both been multibillion dollar companies. A lot of my personal net worth is still locked up in the equity, so just, just very, you know, imbalanced. So. So I do own some crypto, Not a lot, mainly just bitcoin, Ethereum and. And I actually own a cryptopunk which I'm happy of. One of the, maybe the only NFT that is has persisted.

[A]

So did you get in at the right time on that one?

[C]

I got in at a good time. Not as early as a lot of people, but I'm actually, I have one punk myself and then I'm part of a fund with a few people, some of whom you probably know.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I'm very fortunate that there's somebody sort of leading that who has been into punk since day one. And so it's kind of fun to sort of like watch the last vestige and see, you know, it's just an extraordinary thing. But yeah, crypto punks, they almost hit half a mil.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I remember board apes were approaching half a million dollars at one point too.

[C]

Yeah. And board apes are almost. Which is, you know, I got a mutant ape.

[A]

I never got a board one. I would have been down bad if I got a board ape.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Well, also depends on when you bought it. True. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I guess if you got it at the start, then you're still up.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But now they're down what, 80, 90% from the all time high.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

NFTs in general. What?

[C]

Right, right. And you know, that's fine collectibles too. Yeah. But you have things, you know that this is why things like Pele rookies or Mickey Mantle or these things that are so limited and Pele's. Pele and like it's not. This isn't just a random, you know, NFT or image you created so, so.

[A]

That'S the goal with Ghost, right. You're trying to take the more exclusive route.

[C]

Yeah. And to be extremely intentional about how we create collectibles, which is, for example, every Ghost has on the bottom exactly how many exist of that. So this one is numbered out of 800. So there's 800 base. And that level of transparency doesn't really exist in any form of commerce. There are certain things that are small, limited. But imagine if every Funko that was created, you knew exactly how many existed and you could flip over a common one and actually see that there were, I don't know, 200,000 made, 500,000, who knows? It's got to be massive. That would significantly impact, you know, the perception of value. If you're like, oh, this is one of a million. A hundred percent.

[A]

That's why I like the Funko sodas a little more because it actually does show the. I think it does show the total amount of them.

[C]

And the Funko sodas, when you open the can.

[A]

Yeah, the canned ones.

[C]

Got it.

[A]

Yeah. But yeah, you're right though. Who knows how many pops are out there? It could be, right? Millions.

[C]

Right. And you know what? That's okay. Funko is this sort of hybrid. You know, they are a collectible company. Some, as you know, are worth money, but for the most part, you go to buy, go to Target. You can buy a funko pop for 10 bucks or 20 bucks whenever you want. But. And so that's okay. So it's kind of more of a consumer product.

[A]

Yeah, they got to appeal to both. Right. Because they are a public company and they need revenue.

[C]

That's right. And by the way, that is the inflection point for every company, every brand, which is the company wants to make more products, they want to sell more products, but the more they make, then they risk it being, you know, oversaturated and the product isn't cool anymore and it's not rare.

[A]

Right.

[C]

You know, this is why Nike has been so good for so long. Nike has, has almost perfected that, that like n minus one strategy. Right. They want to make as many shoes as they can possibly make but still make one less than demand. So they're still, they still sell out and people still go to and resell one stock X or camp out for them.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And, and it's a hard thing to do because you can't know what, what demand is demands a forecast. It's a projection off of last year. And. But that's, that's what Nike's been doing. For the entire hype economy is all that. It's supply and demand. Eco Econ 101 at its most basic, and it's trying to figure out how do we make something really cool and people want it, but not make so many that it becomes worthless?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's a game. And I think they made the right partnerships with the players and the athletes too.

[C]

Exactly. Right. Because they drive real demand. If you have somebody like we're talking cards, Pele, Mickey Mantle, you know, Nike's has been with, you know, Kanye and Drake and Travis Scott. Right. There's real demand around Travis Scott. You don't have to artificially create demand by saying something's limited or no, like people really do want to buy stuff that Travis Scott puts out. And we think of it as two halves of demand. There's real demand that people would buy regardless of how scarce it is. And then we call this sneakerhead demand. You could call it whatever you want, but the other side of it, which is people want something only because it's scarce or only because it's valuable. And it's somewhat cyclical because the more valuable it gets, then the more people want it. But it's the idea that, hey, even if this wasn't scarce, what is the true demand? That's part of it. And when you have somebody like Kanye or Travis Scott or Nike at the center of it or the NBA, there's just real true demand that exists underneath it. And, and so that's kind of the intersection and how those brands think about doing it.

[A]

Yeah. What Kanye pulled off with Yeezy was, was awesome to watch, man. It's sad to see how it ended, but how it began and how it grew was incredible.

[C]

You know, at one point, between Kanye and Virgil, they probably accounted for 70% of the dollars sold on stock X. Some extraordinary number because they were so prolific. They touched so many products. The value of those were so high. And you know, obviously today, both of those people are no longer making products and for, for different reasons. But. And that was sort of the peak of the hype economy, which didn't necessarily coincide with the, the peak in 21 and the bubble we've been talking about. But you had this, this moment that was happening between 2016 to 2019, where sneakers were becoming so mainstream, where, you know, I, I heard you guys talking earlier about where to buy shoes here in Vegas. You know, Urban Necessities is kind of maybe the most well known consignment shop. You know, resale shop for your really high value stuff. But you guys named four other spots that I'm sure are great also. And that just like that mainstreamification of sneakers that didn't exist in 2014, 2015. And so as it grew, it was on the backs of Kanye and Virgil and the brands doing that.

[A]

Yeah. And now StockX is probably the number one place for sneakers in the world. Right?

[C]

Yeah. What happened was as we were growing, we got to figure out how do you grow the business? And so we already talked about adding other categories. So we quickly added watches, handbags, clothing, et cetera. But then how do you sell more products to the same people? And so I don't know the numbers anymore. I left StockX four years ago. I don't have access to the numbers, but I think more shoes on StockX are sold at either retail or less than retail than at some really high, you know, thousand dollar shoe. That is the hype, that is the marketing. But really it's, you can go to Foot Locker and buy a pair of shoes, 100 bucks, maybe that same shoes on stock X for 95 or 105 or whatever it is. Right. It's just now you can buy all shoes there. And what's happened is, you know, the sneaker market people always ask me the first question that like sneaker has asked, like, well, our sneakers going to come back? You know, it's kind of like it's kind of dead right now. Are we in a, a sneaker recession? And, and what happened was, you know, you've stock X and then there's another company called Goat, which also is very good, started the same time. And then you have a lot of these consignment shops. We all made it so that if Nike releases a new pair of Jordans and maybe you're. You want to buy a pair of shoes that week. Well, you could go to nike.com and buy that pair of Jordans or you could go to StockX or go and buy every shoe that's ever released ever. So now all of a sudden that that demand gets spread out so that Jordan doesn't sell out because they're not competing against the six other releases that were happening that day or that week. The way it used to be, pre Internet, pre stock X. Now you're competing with every shoe that's ever released, including every other Jordan that's ever released. So to some extent stock X and Goat and we have hurt ourselves. We've cannibalized our own market. And so you know, we're kind of at this very like stasis where market's not growing a lot, but it's still really big and there's still a lot being bought and sold.

[A]

Right. That's crazy. Yeah. I will say because I've sneaker shopped in person and then compare the price to StockX almost every time it was cheaper on StockX, to be honest.

[C]

And a lot of times is that that store is also cross listing their products on StockX, Go, eBay, etc. Because they just have to, you know, their job is to sell product. And how many people can walk into that store day? I don't know, A hundred, a thousand. How many people go to StockX? You know, 30 million a month. How many people go to go. How many people go to eBay? Right. 300 million a month. So you know, those stores are cross listing across as well.

[A]

Yeah. Did you predict that growth at StockX? Because you were there early, man. Number four. Right.

[C]

Well, so technically my number was number five.

[A]

Oh, five.

[C]

But you know, you know, I was the founder and CEO. Right. We. We started that company. It was. There were. Dan Gilbert, had a small team of four other people that were working on this idea. And then I was running a sneaker blog called Campless, which was like a sneaker price guide. And so they reached out and they ended up acquiring Campless. And then we joined forces and so those guys were technically there before me. So we have employee numbers. All four of them are number one. And then I'm number five. There is actually no number two, three and four anyway. Which is a fun sort of side note. But we. From a prediction standpoint. No, no, I. You can't possibly have imagined what would happen. All we really understood was that we were making it easier for people to buy and sell shoes. And. And so that had to lead to some growth. But like, no way. We also, there's. There's so much luck in all these companies. Right. We started working on stock X before Kanye signed to Adidas. So we didn't even know what was gonna happen. And then it happens to be that we launched StockX basically the same month that Yeezy launches.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Like what? Kind of like just extra. And then, you know, a year later, then Virgil and the 10 and all the stuff that happens with Nike. So these things were all happening together and we helped grow it. But it was just really amazing timing that we're just fortunate to have fallen.

[A]

Into that right time, right place. But you were prepared for it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You had the infrastructure set up. Because that probably wasn't an easy task to integrate all those easy Right.

[C]

Well, yeah. In fact, in the beginning, you know, a lot of it was. Was pulling in sales from ebay. You know, ebay was the largest marketplace, but for resale sneakers by far before stock X and goat. And, you know, so in the beginning, a lot of the hack was being able to see what was being sold on ebay. And, you know, in stock X, there is no. You don't see the buyer or seller. It's anonymous.

[A]

Right.

[C]

All you see is the number, which is like, hey, I want to buy this pair of shoes. There's an ask or listing for sale. Say the ask is, I don't know, $500. So you see it's 500, and that's tied to an actual seller on the other end of that, a store or whoever. But you don't know who that is. You don't care. All you care about is, do I want to buy this shoe at 500 or not? And so in the beginning, we would have asks that were actually tied to ebay listings. So if you bought a pair of shoes, bought that ask on StockX for $500, we would then turn on, go buy it from ebay, bring it into stock X, authenticate it, make sure it's the right shoe, and then we would ship it to you. We put a stock X tag on it, clean up the box, etc. So you would have no idea that that happened.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And you don't care. You are happy to pay the price that you're willing to pay for it. But in the beginning, these were the things that we would do to hack together that. That infrastructure. Because a marketplace is. This is the oldest problem in the history of the Internet. Right. Chicken and the egg. You know, buyers need sellers, sellers need buyers. And. And so in the beginning, you know, every marketplace has to figure out ways to hack together some liquidity, some size to be able to grow. Eventually you stop doing that. Eventually you, you know, you stop doing it. But, you know, in the beginning, those are the things you do.

[A]

Crazy. So you were drop shipping at first.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And this was back then, before it blew up.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow. So that's because you probably didn't have the money to carry inventory. So that was out of the question for sure.

[C]

We didn't. We didn't want to. We considered it. Right. We considered it. Would that be a good use of product? Because it was so important that if we could get a potential buyer to come to StockX, that they click on a couple pages that they don't see zero listings, they see zero shoes for Sale, they go to two pages, they go to three pages and there's nothing available for those three. It feels like the site's dead and they're never coming back. So we considered everything in the beginning. But yeah, buying shoes was, was unfortunately we didn't have to do and really the ebay hack really helped a lot to not have to do.

[A]

Absolutely. And shoes are tricky because there's so many sizes. You've got to stock up on every size from 5 to 12 or whatever.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Would have been a nightmare.

[C]

Yeah. No way.

[A]

And then you guys, were you the first company to authenticate shoes and stuff like that?

[C]

You know, consignment shops had been authenticating shoes for a long time. And so you have like Flight Club, which is kind of the O consignment shop. And we started right around the same time as this company called Go Go launched about eight months ahead of us. And, and then there's a company called Stadium Goods which is a somewhat like a consignment shop that's based in New York. And so all three of us were authenticating shoes. And so that was a big value that's added. Someone knows they're never going to get a fake pair of shoes and that's important. But authentication is kind of the red herring. It's really just the ante to play. The real business at StockX is what we call a single product page. So what that means is let's say you go to ebay and you look for whatever pair of shoes you know, Air Jordan, you know, three Black cement, you will get a thousand listings and then you have to decide buy from this one or that one or that one. But if you had a stock X and want a pair of Jordan 3 black cement, there's one page for and every bid and every ask is right there. So that's what creates the efficiency, that's what creates the transparency that, that is the whole business. And in order to have a single product page, you have to be able to have a standardized product, which means you have to sell off a stock photo, which means that you don't see a picture of the actual shoe you're going to get. So the only way to do that is one, to sell only brand new shoes and two, for us to authenticate it. We couldn't risk that what you're going to get is not what you think you're going to get. And so it, it really is the, the ante play. But if you're a 14 year old kid and you've saved up all your money to buy a pair of Yeezys or Jordans. Like knowing you're not getting a fake shoe is pretty important.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So yeah. So like a lot of these things, Uber and Lyft starting at the same time. You know, DraftKings and FanDuel, you know, us and Goat and same goods all start at the same time. We are all authenticating. We were all on a single product page. Like that was that that era and just happened to be. Which is a unique thing. When you look back at a lot of startups that are success usually have this sort of like duopoly of two people doing it at the same time.

[A]

That is interesting. You guys probably push each other though in a way, right?

[C]

That's right. And you're always comparing yourself against each other and looking at it. StockX is way bigger brand name and you know, on the ground. But I don't know the numbers anymore. But I'm fairly certain that in terms of actual sneaker sales, StockX and Code are pretty close. Okay, let's just even say they're the same. Everything else that StockX has done in terms of brand and having people like Eminem and Mark Wahlberg and Drake is on the cap table and doing activations with them and everything we've done is just the difference in brand. But the single product page, that's why we are basically the same in sneakers. And that's what everyone else missed. That's what ebay has missed. And even though ebay now authenticates sneakers, they have not even come close to catching up to stocks or Goat because again, it's not a single product page. So it's still just very hard to figure out what you want to buy. It creates anytime there's more friction in the purchase process, it leads to less sales.

[A]

I mean it's super complicated on ebay. You got to see who the seller is, see how many reviews they have. Sometimes message them before.

[C]

Yeah. Look through different pictures. Is this, why is this picture this way? You know, why is there a cat in the picture?

[A]

I mean like the quality control, the trust isn't there like it is on stock X. Did you kind of model that after Amazon's to click checkout?

[C]

So it's a really good question because in the beginning we had what was what you would think of as like a two click checkout which. But what was happening was people were expecting the like confirmation page. They're like. Because we, you know, you already have the credit card info, you have their address, you have everything else. So if there's a, an ask there. Someone's selling this shoe for $400 and say, I want to buy it. Click. Right. We were like, the sales done right and people are like, oh, like. And so we actually ended up adding a step in between so they would feel more like traditional E commerce. Just because, you know, that was, that was what people.

[A]

It was too easy for people at the time. Yeah, yeah. Amazon changed the game with that. Yeah, yeah. Two click checkout. I mean, it doesn't even feel like you bought something with Amazon.

[C]

That's right. But they've also taught us that over the years. And so now we understand that we use it and, you know, it was just a different thing.

[A]

Nice. How tough was it walking away four years ago? Was that the toughest decision you've had to make?

[C]

No, it was. It took me about a year to realize that just because I started the company doesn't mean I can't leave. And. And I left because I, I had a new business that I wanted to pursue, which was Fanatics Collectibles, which is the trading car business that we created. But it was still super sad leaving. I still broke down in tears in the last, like all company zoom. It was during the pandemic and I left in September of 2020, you know, because that was, that was the first big company success was so tied to me personally. And so it was, it was hard to get to that place. It took a long time. When I finally left, it was great and it felt so good to be on the other side and now starting a company and being that. But yeah, it's. It's a unique experience for anyone to go through that.

[A]

No, I see that because your identity was probably tied to that company. Like, you were probably the same.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[A]

That's how a lot of founders are.

[C]

Yeah. And I mean, literally, even today, walking through the encore, someone stopped me like, oh, you the X stock guy.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

I'm like, stock expert Stock.

[A]

I haven't heard that one.

[C]

I know. I hadn't heard that either.

[A]

That's funny, man.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Talk to me about that transition to fanatics collectibles.

[C]

In. We talked about. We're sort of always looking for what other products might make sense to put on stock X. And so in 2018, we started looking at trading cards. I started buying trading cards again myself. I bought cards as a kid and, you know, the trading card market, at least to me, it was starting to be clear that it was going to grow that, that all of us coming back into the market who all collected cars as Kids. And so I was trying to figure out how to build a trading card business within StockX. And I thought the best opportunity was to go after the licenses to actually manufacture the cards, which isn't what StockX does. StockX is a marketplace. And so once you sort of got to a place that it wasn't really the right thing to do within StockX, I actually left and I was partnering with a different company to fund me going after the licenses. And we worked together about two months and they said, hey, listen, you should probably be working with Michael Rubin, not us. Michael Rubin and fanatics have all the licenses. They're interested in trading cards. You guys should meet. He and I sat in a room together for six hours on the Tuesday before Thanksgiving of 2020.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And, and just had a complete. Just the two of us, you know, just all out everything about trading cards. And we left that room with, you know, I had this idea about how and why we should get the licenses and how we could grow the business. And he already had all the relationships with all the leagues and the players associations, the people that you need to make trading cards. And so we left that at the end of 2020. And then we spent all of 2021 having very private conversations with all of the leagues and the players to try to convince them to give us the licenses out from under the incumbents. Trading cards have been made by Top since 1952. There's a company called Panini that have been making basketball and football cards. And look, it was my idea, it was my vision, it was my plan, but it was 99%, you know, his relationship with everyone. And, and they gave us the licenses and we come out of that year of 2021 and we raised money at a $10 billion valuation.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And there was one employee of the company, it was just me. There was no, there was no company. It was, it was me and all the licenses. And of course, obviously then, you know, we had to go run the company. We then use that leverage to buy tops. And then their whole team came in. And then, you know, the. Over the course of the first half of 2022, we built that team and, and then to everyone to run that business. But, but StockX was a rocket ship. It was zero to a billion in three years and hit 8 billion at one point. Fax collectibles was zero to 10 billion in one year. It was nuts. It was crazy by every metric. And it was really a fantastic thing to be a part of. And unlike StockX, it was way easier to walk away I knew from the beginning if this thing ever gets as big as we think it could be, no problem. That's not me. I don't want to try to run a $10 billion company. And Ruben was on board with that as well. And so, you know, I left, you know, two years into it, you know, a year and a half, and most of that was just getting licenses. So, yeah, it was crazy.

[A]

Yeah, they seem to have a little monopoly going on now with the trading card space. Right.

[C]

They figured out. And I say they. I mean, Ruben said, hey, we have the best relationships with the leagues and players. What are all the businesses that we should be in around that? You know, their core business, apparel, headwear, jerseys, trading cards, betting and gaming events. You know, I don't know if you saw Fanatics, Fanatics Fest in New York a couple months ago. That was a function of them saying to all their partners, all their licensees, hey, let's all create the, you know, the. The comic. Comic con of sports and do that, because, again, of those relationships. So, yeah, they're. They're. They're a monster.

[A]

Ruben's one of the best networkers I've ever seen. I've never met him, but just his whiteout parties, his super bowl parties, I mean, he knows everyone. It's impressive.

[C]

It is extraordinary. And, you know, I want to say, having sit next to him for a year in negotiating, because he is so prominent socially, I think people miss or ignore the fact that he is such a good negotiator, he is such a good deal maker, and I was so privileged to sit next to him and watch that happen. It's not to be hyperbolic, right. But, like, you can't appreciate how good of A basketball player LeBron is until you sit on the floor next to him and see how big he is and see how he moves and all that, and it's kind of the same thing. Like, I can't explain to you how good of a dealmaker he is, except that I sat next to him for a year and watched it, and it was just impressed every single day. And, you know, the rest of that stuff, you know, comes with it. But. But yeah, that. That's his. That's his true support.

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure you picked up some really cool things being around him for that time. Is becoming a billionaire a goal of yours, like, on, like, liquid wise?

[C]

No, I don't think that. I don't think that matters as much as being able to just create businesses. You know, the last two companies I started, StockX and Found Collectibles, both of which I had a billionaire co founder as a partner. And now I get to create a business where I'm the majority funding it, but I get to work with exactly who I want to work with. It's me. There's only 10 other people, all 10 of them people that I worked with before at either StockX or Fanatics levels or both. And that's the true win. And now we'll see if we can build this company and make it big. I think I have a pretty good idea of how to grow this and what to do. But money comes, money comes. That's okay. But really being able to create because business is just people. It's like, who do you show up every day and hang out with? Every day you hang out with people you work with more than your family. So like, that's, that's the true win. And yeah, that's true.

[A]

You gotta enjoy it, man. That's. That's cool to be in that position. Well, dude, where could people find out about the next drop and everything?

[C]

Ghostrite.com or you know, ghostwrite on Instagram. But December 10th is the big WNBA release. This will. Obviously I'm biased, but this is going to be a big deal. This is, this is collectible toys as trading cards with WNBA after this historic season with Caitlin Clark and injuries and. And just this, you know, unbelievable change in women's basketball. So.

[A]

Yeah, nice. I'll grab a pack and open it on my Instagram. Man. Let's do it. All right, guys, check out the links below. See you next time.