The Untold Podcast Journey: From Gangs to Gangland | Anthony Ruggiano #886

Summary

Digital Social Hour: The Untold Podcast Journey: From Gangs to Gangland | Anthony Ruggiano #886

Release Date: November 13, 2024

Host: Sean Kelly

---

Introduction

In episode #886 of "Digital Social Hour," host Sean Kelly sits down with Anthony Ruggiano, a former mobster whose life story traverses the gritty landscapes of organized crime, addiction, and remarkable redemption. Anthony opens up about his tumultuous past, his deep ties to the mob, struggles with substance abuse, and his journey towards recovery and transformation.

---

Early Life and Mob Involvement

Anthony Ruggiano begins by detailing his upbringing within the mob environment, heavily influenced by his father, a made member of the Gambino family.

Anthony Ruggiano [00:27]: "I'm a 70s kid, so I'm in the early 70s, you know, I'm in the mob. My father's a made guy."

Growing up in an environment where mob culture was integral, Anthony was introduced to the ruthless lifestyle from a young age. He recounts how his father’s involvement shaped his worldview and ingrained in him the codes of loyalty and violence that define organized crime.

---

Prison Experience and Gang Associations

Anthony discusses his multiple stints in both New York State and federal prisons, highlighting the camaraderie and complex gang dynamics within these institutions.

Anthony Ruggiano [00:03]: "I always hung out with Italian guys, you know, mob guys. We were all hooked up by what city we came from—New York crew, Philly crew, the Chicago crew."

He elaborates on the solidarity among Italian inmates and how these connections mirrored the external mob alliances. Anthony also touches upon the presence of other gangs like the Latin Kings in state prisons and his interactions with the Westies in federal facilities.

---

Addiction and Recovery Journey

A significant portion of the conversation centers around Anthony's battle with addiction. He candidly shares his struggles with alcohol and cocaine, detailing the descent from recreational use to severe dependency.

Anthony Ruggiano [01:27]: "I'm coming up on 36 years. I got clean in 1989."

Anthony attributes his long-term sobriety to his admission to a treatment center in Vermont, funded by his father's partner. This pivotal moment marked the beginning of his transformation, leading him to become a counselor and work in detox facilities.

---

Life in Organized Crime: Operations and Operations

Anthony provides an insider’s view of the mob’s operations, particularly focusing on bookmaking and the illegal lottery business, which were highly lucrative during his tenure.

Anthony Ruggiano [07:35]: "The bookmaking brought in the most money. The numbers really brought in the most money because that's an everyday thing."

He explains the intricate processes of their operations, the significant cash flow involved, and the hierarchical structures that maintained order within the mob. Anthony also reflects on the challenges posed by increased surveillance and legal measures like RICO, which eventually led to his downfall.

---

Interactions with Notorious Mob Figures

Anthony recounts his close relationships with prominent mob figures, notably John Gotti, shedding light on the personal bonds and loyalty that underpinned their interactions.

Anthony Ruggiano [18:01]: "I was very tight with him. He liked me. Thank God."

He shares anecdotes about traveling with Gotti, the mutual respect they shared, and the influence these relationships had on his life within the mob.

---

Violence and Internal Mob Wars

The discussion delves into the violent nature of mob life, including the internal conflicts and wars that often led to deaths within the organization.

Anthony Ruggiano [37:07]: "Who are we to judge them? Who are we to decide who lives and who dies?"

Anthony describes how disputes were typically handled internally, highlighting the omnipresent threat of violence as a means of enforcing rules and maintaining power dynamics within the mob.

---

Legal Troubles and Indictments

Anthony narrates the sequence of events leading to his multiple RICO indictments, describing the intensity of legal battles and his eventual decision to cooperate with authorities.

Anthony Ruggiano [27:23]: "They had no evidence. There's no physical evidence."

He explains how circumstantial evidence and witness testimonies were pivotal in securing his convictions, leading him to plead guilty and accept significant prison time.

---

Transformation and New Beginnings

Post-incarceration, Anthony's life took a dramatic turn as he embraced sobriety and sought to rebuild his life by becoming a counselor. His personal experiences enable him to guide others struggling with addiction.

Anthony Ruggiano [30:43]: "They think with your life experience and everything you overcame, did a mob jail, you know, you got a lot of years sober. We think you would, you know, really do good as a counselor."

He reflects on the internal changes he underwent, developing a conscience and remorse for his past actions, striving to mend relationships with his family, and dedicating himself to helping others avoid the pitfalls he once faced.

---

Personal Reflections and Legacy

In his introspective moments, Anthony contemplates the consequences of his actions, the impact on his family, and the deep-seated remorse for the lives he affected.

Anthony Ruggiano [35:50]: "I have nightmares. I have some. I get sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night and, you know, like I think about things I did, people I hurt."

He openly discusses his struggles with PTSD-like symptoms, highlighting the long-term psychological effects of his violent and tumultuous past.

---

Future Endeavors and Outreach

Anthony concludes by sharing his ongoing efforts to educate and inspire through his podcast, appearances on shows like "Gangland," and engaging with audiences via his website and Patreon.

Anthony Ruggiano [49:55]: "They can find me on Reformed Gangsters on my podcast. They could find me @anthonyruggianojr.com on my website."

His commitment to transparency and sharing his story underscores his dedication to preventing others from making similar mistakes, advocating for redemption and personal growth.

---

Conclusion

Anthony Ruggiano's narrative is a compelling journey from the depths of organized crime and addiction to a life dedicated to sobriety and helping others. Through candid discussions on "Digital Social Hour," listeners gain valuable insights into the intricate world of the mob, the ravages of addiction, and the profound power of personal transformation.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Anthony Ruggiano [01:25]: "I'm in recovery, so, yeah, I interview people."
• Anthony Ruggiano [04:14]: "With the fentanyl, I tell my patients, today you're playing Russian roulette."
• Anthony Ruggiano [15:56]: "The mob life impressed me."
• Anthony Ruggiano [29:04]: "That's who I am."
• Anthony Ruggiano [35:58]: "You know, I felt terrible for what I did."
• Anthony Ruggiano [43:31]: "It was a tough decision."
• Anthony Ruggiano [35:50]: "I have nightmares."

---

Where to Find Anthony Ruggiano

• Podcast: Reformed Gangsters
• Website: anthonyruggianojr.com
• Patreon: Reformed Gangsters Patreon
• Upcoming Appearance: Gangland on the History Channel (August 11th at 10:00)

---

Anthony Ruggiano's story serves as a powerful testament to the possibility of change and the importance of confronting one's past to forge a better future. His openness offers invaluable lessons on resilience, redemption, and the enduring human capacity for transformation.

Transcript

[A]

Did you have the same squad you hung out with in prison?

[B]

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I always hung out with Italian guys, you know, mob guys. You know, I did state time, New York state time, and then I did federal prison time. So it's different in the New York State. The Italian guys were, like. We were, like, pretty much hooked up with the Latin Kings. Like, we had each other back. And the feds, it was all. There was so many Italian guys. So we were all clipped up, really, by what city we came from. There was the New York crew, Philly crew, the Chicago crew.

[A]

There was that many Italian guys?

[B]

Oh, yeah. From all over the country. Yeah.

[A]

All right, guys, got Anthony Ruggiano here today. Thanks for coming on, man.

[B]

Oh, my pleasure. I've been looking forward to it.

[A]

Yeah, I've been seeing you blow up on the Internet.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Yeah. How long you been doing the podcast for now?

[B]

About three years. Coming up on three years. You know, I just got into this, you know, I had no clue about podcasts or shows, and I just got a phone call one day that these people in England were looking to keep hearing things about me and my father, and they wanted to put me on this show, National Geographic. Knocko was. And I did it. And then one thing led to another, and I winded up getting my own podcast.

[A]

Nice. And do you interview people, or is it just you?

[B]

No, I do both. I interview. I tell my own story. You know, I interview people. I interview people that I know. I interview people that are in recovery because I'm. I'm in recovery, so, yeah, I interview people.

[A]

How long you been in recovery?

[B]

I'm coming up on 36 years.

[A]

Holy. Dude, congrats.

[B]

Yeah, I'm 27, so I got clean in 1989. January 1989.

[A]

And it was really bad before that.

[B]

Yeah, it was. The last few years were bad. You know, the last few years were pretty. Were kind of crazy. Yeah.

[A]

What was the substance? It was alcohol.

[B]

Yeah. I was free basing cocaine at the end. You know, it was not a. Not pretty.

[A]

You were free basin. What's up?

[B]

It's before crack that we would make. Cook it up ourselves and smoke it. And then after what I had progressed into crack cocaine. But this they used to call. I don't know if you ever heard of Richard Pryor. Did you ever hear Richard Pryor? He was a famous comedian. He caught on fire from free basin. That's how it was a form. So you took the cocaine and you. You. You purified it yourself and you smoked it.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you kind of made it on your own.

[B]

Yeah, it was bad. Damn, it was bad.

[A]

And what. What compelled you to that addiction? You think?

[B]

Well, you know, and I'm a 70s kid, so I'm in the, you know, in the early 70s, you know, I'm in the mob. My father's a made guy. You know what I mean? So. So now a lot of. For me, and I'm running around Manhattan. I'm running around to all these clubs, and everybody's blowing coke, you know, it was very expensive. It was like the beautiful people did it back then, I guess you could say. And it was all in all the clubs in Manhattan. And it started out like anything else, recreationally, having a good time, sniffing a little coke, drinking the girls, the. This to that. And, you know, then over the years, you know, the progression of the disease of addiction. And then, you know, and just in the early 70s, you know, which started out on weekends, and then as time went on and then into the 80s, it started becoming an issue, I guess maybe my. The way I was wired, I mean, because, you know, it's funny when you talk about addiction, because people that I used with that in, you know, when I was a kid, in my 20s, didn't become addicts, but I did. So, you know, maybe it's just hereditary or the way I was wired, my personality. And then in the 80s, it became an issue. It started becoming an issue. And then in 88, I. I went into a treatment center. My father's partner, Tony Lee, paid for me to go into a treatment center in Vermont. And I got clean and I. And I came out and, you know, I've been clean.

[A]

Wow. These days it seems like because they're laced, it doesn't even seem worth it.

[B]

It's terrible. You know, now I work in it. I work in. I. That's what I do now. I work. Besides having my podcast and all this and doing these interviews, I work in a detox now. I became a counselor. I was a counselor, case manager. Now I'm a technician at a detox. So I deal with addiction every day.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It just seems like the chances of dying are so high now, it's not even worth just randomly doing it at a party.

[B]

Oh, no. With the fentanyl, I tell my patients, today you're playing Russian roulette. If you buy street drugs today you're playing Russian roulette. Because fentanyl is in everything. I mean, it's literally in everything. You know, you think you're buying cocaine and you're going to Do a few lines of coke, there's fentanyl in it and you're overdosing. You think you're buying some Xanax, you know, some, some Bruce bar, you know, Xanax and this fentanyl in it. So kids today, it's, it's. If I was getting high today, I'd be dead crazy. Yeah.

[A]

Back then when you were doing it, no one was overdosing, right?

[B]

They were, but not like today, you know, like randomly, you know, from heroin. It was all heroin. You know, I never messed with heroin. But yeah, that overdoses were not like today. Every day. People are dying every day. It's crazy.

[A]

Were you strictly on the consumer side or were you pushing it too?

[B]

No, I.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a [e-mail] DSH and get on your way, becoming your best self. My fiance Arielle plays a big role in my mental health, helping me realize my true potential. Everyone's trying their best around you, so take time to appreciate someone close to you. I've tried therapy in the past and it helped me go through some tough times. When I was in college dealing with mental health, I was on prescription medication. I actually had agoraphobia when I was in college and therapy helped me figure out some answers to how to fix that problem. For two months I couldn't even leave my house or I would have a full on panic attack. So I love companies like BetterHelp that can get therapy in front of the masses. But therapy definitely helped me get better. And I definitely appreciate companies like BetterHelp because it's completely online and it's conveniently suited to fit your schedule and accommodate life surprises. Fill out a brief questionnaire to match with a licensed therapist today with the freedom to switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Visit betterhelp.comDSH to get 10 off your first month. That's BetterHelp H lp.comDSH check them out. Now.

[B]

Really wasn't, you know, I mean, I pushed it once in a while, you know, my brother had a very big marijuana business, but not quite marijuana was illegal. Unfortunately, he was the way ahead of his time. So he had a really big marijuana business in the 70s and 80s, but other than that we weren't pushing drugs.

[A]

Did he get popped?

[B]

He, you know, it's funny, he never got popped, but the guys that worked for him and ran for him, a couple of them went to prison for it, but he never.

[A]

Oh, so they didn't rat on him?

[B]

No. No, no. Back then, no. So they went to prison for marijuana.

[A]

So silly to say it now, right? It's legal.

[B]

I mean, every. Listen, even me, I went to prison for bookmaking. It's legal today. Sports numbers is the lotto. That's everything I went to jail for outside of murder is legal today.

[A]

Crazy. That makes you feel pissed, probably, right?

[B]

It does at times. It really does. Yeah, definitely.

[A]

You served years?

[B]

I went to jail for years. I got. I spent 14 years in prison.

[A]

Holy crap. Was that mainly for the bookmaking?

[B]

Well, no. When I. The first time I went to prison was in 1978. I went to prison for. We robbed the liquor warehouse. And then I went to prison in 91. That was for policy. That was for the lottery. We had a number. Business Lottery. Yeah, you know, the lottery, like the, you know, that they have now, the states all have the lottery, the numbers. So we had an illegal number business, like. And I went to jail for that. And then in 95, I got arrested for sports betting for bookmaking, and I went to jail for that and extortion and a whole bunch of other stuff.

[A]

Damn. Which one brought in the most money?

[B]

Oh, the bookmaking. And brought in the most. The numbers, really. The numbers brought in the most money because that's an everyday thing that's like people are betting dollars and 50 cents and quarters and dimes and $5. So, you know, we would. It was a lot of money.

[A]

Wow. So you literally had your own lottery. That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I didn't know that was a business.

[B]

Yeah, that was a big business. Yeah, it was a big business. Big. Yeah. But I went to jail for it, of course. Yeah.

[A]

I always wonder what the. The Mafia does now for money. Because it's a lot harder to get away with stuff, right?

[B]

You know, that's a good question, because I was talking to somebody the other day, like, I don't know what they do anymore because everything, like I said, everything I did to earn money today is legal. You know, they're selling drugs, that's for sure. I mean, that. That. That's for sure. And probably, you know, white collar crimes, you know, stocks, bonds, whatever they could. Listen, the mob is going to do whatever they could do to make money. They're going to. They're going to. They're going to figure, think ways to, you know, make money. But I. Everything I did to make money back then, I couldn't do today. First of all, there's too much surveillance. There's cameras everywhere you go. I mean, there's cameras in fucking People's doorbells. It's insane. And, you know, like, I made money with fraudulent credit cards. You couldn't do that no more because every store you go in as cameras, right then I had a vending company. I mean, I'm sure there's still people out there with gambling machines and bodegas and all that stuff. So they're still making money with gambling. Because even though gambling is legal, not everybody has a bank account. So if you don't have a bank account, you can't hook the app up to a checking account or a savings account. You can't bet legally, so you're going to go to a bookmaker. So there's ways for them to make money. Not like it used to be. And there's no more violence, so no.

[A]

More like murders or anything?

[B]

No, they're not doing that anymore.

[A]

I mean, was it because they kept killing each other?

[B]

They were like, yeah, you know, it's because. Really, because of the surveillance, because of the laws and because people are cooperating.

[A]

Yeah, the surveillance is insane. I'm watching these cases on these rappers right now. And they tracked the murder from their phones and the towers. It showed they were at the same place at the same time.

[B]

Yeah. And then they got like the Colombo there was. It's fun. And then you got. Everybody's on tick tock and YouTube and, you know, and Instagram and. And this kid, this guy was on the Lamb. A Colombo guy, a captain in the Colombo family, Michael Francis's whole family. He was on the Lamb, hiding from the FBI and his son put his picture on Instagram or Tick Tock and the guy had to go surrender himself. They knew where he was.

[A]

Yeah, because all they need is a photo now, right?

[B]

That's it.

[A]

Even your Tesla, if you have a Tesla, it pretty much tracks wherever you go, everywhere. That's crazy.

[B]

So the way I made money back then, I could never, I. I want to know how to make money illegally today, you know? Well, I would, because somebody asked me the other day, what if I had to do anything illegal today? What would I do? And I says, I would do two things. They said, what? I would smuggle untaxed cigarettes from Florida to New York. Because in New York cigarettes are $17 a pack. And then when I got to New York, I would go to, to Canal street and get knockoff Gucci's and Louis Vuitton and bring them back to Florida. That's the only thing I would know how to do right now. But I'm not. I mean, that's What I would do.

[A]

Yeah. Cigarettes in prison sell for a lot, though, right?

[B]

A lot. Right now you can't smoke in it. You got to smuggle them in. It's like drugs now.

[A]

Crazy. When you were in prison, were there drugs everywhere?

[B]

Everywhere.

[A]

I wonder if it's still like that.

[B]

The first time I went to prison, I had my own drugs. I mean, I was getting. The COs were bringing me marijuana and volumes and alcohol.

[A]

That's not too bad then.

[B]

No, no, it was good. The second and time, I. I didn't, you know, I wasn't using them. I was clean and everything, so I. I had no use for anything like that. But I did have use for food. They were bringing us food. A lot of, you know, so that. That was good.

[A]

Did you have the same squad you hung out with in prison?

[B]

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I was hung out with Italian guys, you know, mob guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You're probably protected pretty well.

[B]

We had our own little clique. We were always hooked up. Well, in this, it's different. This. You know, I did state time, New York state time, and then I did federal prison time. So it's different. In the New York State, the Italian guys were like. We were, like, pretty much hooked up with the Latin Kings. Like, we had each back. Yeah. In the state prisons and the feds, it was all. There was so many Italian guys. So we were all clicked up, really, by what city we came from. There was the New York crew, Philly crew, the Chicago crew.

[A]

There was that many Italian guys?

[B]

Oh, yeah. From all over the country. Yeah.

[A]

Holy crap. Which fed prison were you in?

[B]

I was in school. Killed for five years. I was in Otisville. I bounced around, but I did most of my third time in school kill.

[A]

How was.

[B]

My roommate was Kevin Kelly. He was a Westie. Ever heard of the Westies?

[A]

Yeah, the Irish, right?

[B]

Yeah. From the. From Hell's Kitchen, where you name is you? Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Were you. Were you on good terms with the Westies when you were out of prison?

[B]

When I was out of prison, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. They were with the Gambino family.

[A]

Oh, they were, yeah. Oh, okay.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

What about other, like, spots like biker gangs and.

[B]

You know, I never really did any business with biker gangs. I knew a couple of them, you know, but I wasn't really friendly friendly with them. We never really had any much interaction with them. But the Westies, a lot of interactions, A lot of interaction with Dominicans, I had. Because I had a vending company, so my vending company were machines, and there were a lot of illegal gambling machines. And I had them in like, bad neighborhoods, more to say in the hood. That's where the money was. And I had them in Dominican after hour clubs and Puerto Rican bodegas. So I did a lot of business with the Hispanic population.

[A]

Interesting. So all the beef then was internal, is with other families mainly?

[B]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

[A]

That's what I noticed with all the documentaries I watched. It's never like other?

[B]

No, always, always within, amongst ourselves.

[A]

Was it within your family or was it with the other families mainly in.

[B]

My day it was just within. In the Gambino family. But I mean, you know, all the mob wars that were in my time were all internal. Like the Colombo war, it was internal. Michael Francisco talked to you about all about that? Yeah, so it was all. And even the people that got killed in the Gambino family was all internal.

[A]

Damn. Was your dad pretty open with you about everything or was he keeping it pretty.

[B]

No, he was very open with me. I mean, in the beginning, you know, growing up, when I was a kid, he was in the mob since the day I was born. He got. He became a made member the same year I was born in 1953. So I grew up in it, in the life, I mean, you know, and in the beginning, I didn't really know what he did, but I just knew something was different. But when I started at 16, when I actually went to work for him, then he started to school me in the life. And then when I was in my early 20s, he started telling me about acts of violence that he personally committed with other members. Like, he would tell me, we would be out one night and we would meet this guy and he would tell me I did a piece of work with him that meant, you know, they committed a murder together.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Because in the mob they consider murder work. That's the code name. Like he did a piece of work.

[A]

Wow. And he was just telling you this in your 20s?

[B]

Yeah, my 20s, yeah, in my 20s.

[A]

And how did you react? Were you like, holy crap, this is serious?

[B]

Honestly, I was impressed.

[A]

You know, I didn't expect that answer.

[B]

At that point in time. You know, listen, you gotta understand, I was raised in this, with this mentality that that way of life was the right way of life and, and, and society out there's way of life was the wrong way of life. So this was ingrained in my brain and these are the people I grew up with, these are the adults that I grew up around. So when I got into the street, like, I was impressed That I was Fat Andy's son. So that gave me, like, a little swagger, you know, I got some kind of respect. And I liked the feeling. It was like a drug. I liked that feeling. I liked doors being open for me, you know? Like, I like being able to go to the Copacabana, like in Goodfellows. Through the basement, up through the kitchen, you know.

[A]

Wow. That actually happened?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, that's.

[B]

That's a real thing. Yeah. And. And I liked it, you know, so. So, you know, when he told me, and. And his reputation, I. I liked it. I like, you know, his reputation impressed me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know what I mean? The mob life impressed me. And he was a. He was like a. He was a big figure in the mob. So when he told me about things like that, it really didn't faze me. Now, now when I think of it now, you know, I was fucking crazy. We were just programmed crazy, you know? Like. And then later on, you know, him and. Him and I actually committed a murder together, you know, like, it's insane.

[A]

Wow. You and your dad.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Well, not together. He was in prison, and he. Okay to murder.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's nuts. And sometimes the flashiness is the demise of the person. Like, what?

[B]

Got a doubt? Yeah, well, he was way too. I mean, that was crazy. He was on the front page of Time magazine. My father was never that flashy. I mean, my father was front page news. That's how we found out, you know. That's how my kid brother found out my father was in the mob, because he was on the front page. Oh, wow.

[A]

So he had no idea.

[B]

No, he was. Because he was two years younger than me. So when my father had gotten arrested for bookmaking sports because it was illegal, and it was on the front page of the newspaper, and my father was upstairs, and my father said, did Albert read the newspaper? And I said, yeah, because he was a. He was a really good baseball player. My brother and my father used to go to all those Little League games, and he had a game that night, and my father went downstairs and says to my brother, you read the paper? And he said, yeah. And. And he says, you still want me to come to the baseball game with you? And my brother said, of course I do. So that's how my brother found out he was in the mob. And then it's funny, because we went to the game that night, and all the fathers, all the baseball fathers, they didn't know my father was in the mob. Now they all knew. They were like, oh, Andy, we Didn't know. They were, like, his best friend, you know? You know, they were, like, so thrilled.

[A]

Yeah. They suckered up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because back then, that's massive respect.

[B]

Big. And then even me, like, in 1974, I got arrested on Mulberry street in Little Italy. I got arrested and it was in the newspaper. That was the first time my name was in the newspaper. You know, I. I went out that weekend and I was like a celebrity. You know what I mean? Like, it was, you know, it was intoxicating.

[A]

Yeah. I could see why Gotti fell in love with the attention.

[B]

Course I was. Used to go out with John Gotti. He used to sign autographs.

[A]

Damn. Oh, so you were hanging with him?

[B]

Hanging with him. He bought me a car when I got out of treatment. Out of the drugs treatment.

[A]

Wow. So you were really close with him?

[B]

Oh, yeah. I was very tight with him. He liked. For some reason, he liked me. Thank God.

[A]

I haven't heard many positive things about him, but it sounds like you were.

[B]

No, it's. She. I have. We have a different. We had a different. Me, my family and my friends had a very different relationship with him than the rest of the city because we knew him from when he was a nobody. Like, we all come from the same neighborhood. My father knew him since he was a kid.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

His partner, Tony Lee, knew him since he was a teenager. So we, you know, I knew him from when I was 16. He was in his 20s, so, you know, we knew him before he was John Gotti, let's say. So we had a different relationship with him. And we lived in Ozone park, so we had access to him every day.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

You know what I mean? And we had some things in common, you know, So I got along really good with him, and he always looked out for me.

[A]

Nice. Were you telling him to tone it down or. No, no. You just let him live it up.

[B]

No, because actually, the people that were around them really like the notoriety. Listen, any mob guy that tells you they don't like reading their names in the newspaper. Foolish. Even if it's derogatory stuff, they like it. You know what I mean? They like it.

[A]

Did you ever deal with Sammy back then, too?

[B]

No, I, I. But I knew Sammy, you know, I never had any dealings with him personally, but, you know, we knew each other, you know, he used to. You know, he was. He was. He was a very stern guy back then. But, yeah, I used to see him all the time at the Raven Night. And my old man and his partner had a construction company. They did business with Sammy, you know, construction stuff. But I didn't know him like I know him now.

[A]

Man, his stories are legendary. Yeah, he's escaped death many times.

[B]

Many times.

[A]

I'm sure you have to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was there any moments in your career where you're like, I might not walk out of this room?

[B]

There was a couple of meetings I went on that were kind of dangerous. Like, I went on. Did you ever see the Gangs of New York? That movie? The Gangs of New York with Leonardo.

[A]

DiCaprio a while ago. Yeah.

[B]

Okay, well, there's the tunnels down in the Five Points. Those tunnels still exist.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. And I had a meeting down there once, and in the end, and it was kind of eerie walking through those tunnels.

[A]

I bet.

[B]

Like, you know, you could get lost down there. And I was going, how to fuck out this place? You know? And I had to meet these kids and I had to straighten out some beef, you know? But I made it out a couple of times. I had guns pointed at me, you know, I was. A couple of times I was in clubs where shootouts took place, you know, But I pretty. I. I made it out.

[A]

Holy crap.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, back then they were probably less strict on the guns in the clubs.

[B]

Oh, yeah, we used to take guns on airplanes. We used to put them in our luggage and go on an airplane with guns. There. There was. Everything was wide. I used to take a gun on an airplane.

[A]

Holy crap. That's nuts. What was the beef? You were settling underground. Was that between families?

[B]

No. Well, what happened was we at a club. We were in a club and. And a friend of mine. Some friends of mine that would. Us. Had a beef outside and someone got stabbed.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

And for some reason, they were. It was really more of a shakedown. They wanted to press charges. And this guy Greg knew this. They were like a gang from down there, and that's where they stood in these tunnels. So I had to go down there and bring them money. And it was. And. And I had to go. And they. They met me in the street and then him and this. And they walked us down through all these tunnels and to where they were waiting for me. So it was a little. It was a little eerie. I wasn't really worried about getting hurt. Hurt like killed or anything, but it was an uncomfortable feeling, I can tell you that.

[A]

Yeah, because people couldn't lay a hand on a made man, right?

[B]

No, I mean, you could, but you would have got killed for it. I mean, even. Even a made guy, son. I mean, you know, if anybody would have killed Me, back then, they would have been in a lot of trouble. I mean, some people try to. I almost got stabbed one night in a club.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

They had a big sit down over it.

[A]

But did they know it was you, though, or.

[B]

They knew, yeah, they said. They try to say they didn't, but they knew who we were. And. And what happened was a guy went to steer me and there was like a ceramic ashtray on arm, and my friend. My friend Sally Minichello saw the guy and the guy and he took the ceramic Airstream and he hit the guy on the head with it.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

The knife fell out of his hand and there was a couple of wise guys there. And so we had a big sit down over that. And the kid that tried to stab me actually ran away. It's a funny story, because now the kid knew he was in trouble and he ran away.

[A]

Geez.

[B]

Like, he left the neighborhood. He came from downtown Manhattan and he left the neighborhood. And years later, I'm in jail in 1979. I mean, this happened in the early 70s. I'm in jail and I'm in my room because I was in a prison where we had rooms in art to kill. And this guy comes up to my room and he goes, listen, there's a guy in the yard named. This kid's nickname was Mush. He goes, this kid Mush is in the yard. He's terrified. He found out you were here, right? So I said, oh, Mush is here, you know, so he came. He's Italian kid. He came up to. I said, go get him. And they got him. They brought him up to my room and, you know, he was. I'm so sorry, you know, and. And, you know, I. We just let it go.

[A]

Yeah. Wow.

[B]

Patched it up. Yeah. This was like five or six years later.

[A]

Damn, you probably didn't even recognize him. That's crazy. How did those sit downs work? Like, is it just like the movies where each side speaks?

[B]

Yes. It's like a board meeting. It's like. It's like a business meeting. You know, it's. You sit down, you know, you do. Most of the time it's over money or, you know, business or somebody got. Or it could be over some. Something violent, you know, but most of the time it's strictly over business, over money. I mean, all the sit downs. Most. Not, I want to say all. Most of the sit downs that I was personally involved in were all over money. Who owned this, who owed money? If we owed money, they owed money or some kind of business or some Kind of location. Like, Like a vending location. Like, in other words, if you own. If I have a vending machine in your bar and you sell, you're the owner of the bar and I'm your vendor. So this is a mob thing and I'm your vendor and you sell the bar to someone else. That's still my. And now that's someone else is with a different mob guy or a different family. The vending location still belongs to me.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

But sometimes the other they would try to get out of that or you know, and that would be a sit down because it's still my spot. And I would maybe be asked to give the spot up or maybe. Yes, to sell the spot.

[A]

Makes sense.

[B]

That would be a sit down. You know, stuff like that. Bookmaking.

[A]

What percent of money did you have to kick up when you first joined?

[B]

Well, I really didn't have to kick up anything because my father was. But usually you kick up 10% or you make a pot, you know, make them partners. But I, I mean, when I, When I, When I. My father was in prison and he went and his partner Tony Lee died, and I just put them on the payroll, like my vending company. I would give the them money every week. Got it out of my, my vendor company, but I didn't have to kick up. But guys, everybody kicked up, usually an envelope every month. Some guys kicked up 2,500, some guys kicked up a thousand. It all depended. I mean, my father and his partner probably were getting maybe 20, 30,000amonth in envelopes from people that were with him.

[A]

That's solid back then.

[B]

That's a lot of money. Not made a lot of money. That's when money was money.

[A]

Yeah. Were you guys the most successful family financially, you think the Gambinos all.

[B]

Without a doubt. Yeah. The Gambinos in the Genovese family, they were the two biggest. But I would say it's. It's like, oh, it's crazy money. I mean, it's just, I. Listen, I had a nothing vending company. I mean, I had a small little vendor company and I was bringing in 20, 25,000 a week.

[A]

Damn. A week?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Dude, back then that's like 50k these days.

[B]

Yeah. And then, I mean, it's all gone now, unfortunately.

[A]

All spent on lawyers.

[B]

Yeah. You know, even my. So the number business. So the policy numbers. So a number, Like a lot. You know, you go in, you go in stores now and there's a lottery machine and people are waiting online.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Play the lottery. Back then. It was in the neighborhoods. It was in Jamaica, Queensland. We were doing a day. Now we weren't making it. So it's a whole procedure. So there's a banker, there's a controller, and then there's runners. We were the controllers. So the banker would give us 35% of the gross.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

And we would give the runner. So a runner, you would be a runner. You would bring me business, and I would give you 25%. So if you brought me $1,000 a day in business, you kept 25%.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

So when the smoke cleared, the controller made 10%. We were doing. Grossing 80, $90,000 a day on the lottery. On the lottery.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

It was insane. So we, you know, now that, that, that. That 9,000 that we made every day, of course we had expenses. We had to pay people, you know, but. So you're talking a lot. And this is all cash. This ain't no credit cards. So, you know, just think of the mob, the money the mob makes.

[A]

That's insane. And then the RICO came, right?

[B]

The RICO came. And, you know, it's funny because when the RICO started, the test case, when they got the first conviction for the rico, I remember my old man was sitting in the kitchen in his robe, and he had the newspaper open. Then I came up from downstairs. I lived in the basement. We had an apartment. I came upstairs to have coffee with him, and he had the newspaper open. And he says, it's all over for us.

[A]

Whoa. So he knew right away, right away.

[B]

He said, it's all over for us. And you know what? And between him and I, we got indicted for five ricos.

[A]

Damn. Five. One's already hard to fight, but five.

[B]

I got indicted for two. I got indicted for two federal RICO's in one state. Rico.

[A]

Holy crap. Which one was the toughest one?

[B]

Well, the last one I. The last federal. The last federal indictment RICO I had that I went to prison for was in 96. I got indicted in 96 in Florida, right down here in Miami, for a RICO. I took a plea. I got 10 years. And then when I got out in 04, in 05, I got indicted for another federal RICO with a murder.

[A]

They waited till you got out?

[B]

Yeah, they waited. I committed him. My murder in 1988. They put that in a RICO. And then I cooperated later, about a year after that. So, yeah, I got indicted for three ricos. And I was one of the first people to get indicted for a state rico.

[A]

Wow. I didn't know there was a state rico.

[B]

Have a State rico. Yeah. New York State has a rico. They call it an orca, whatever that means. Yeah, but it's just organized crime. Something holy. Everything has initials.

[A]

So they put murder under the rico? I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, that's what they do. Yeah, they put. It's a predicate because the RICO is. Has to be predicate acts, so it has to be an ongoing criminal conspiracy, but it has to have predicate acts. So my RICO was murder and gambling. Those are my predicate acts to show that I stood in, you know, that it was an ongoing. I was part of an ongoing criminal enterprise first. The other RICO that I went away for in 96 with, the predicate acts were extortion, murder, conspiracy. Austin. It was all predicate acts showing, like, over a period of time.

[A]

Damn, you were living fearless back then.

[B]

Yeah, I had no conscience, you know. You know. No, really. No, I had no conscience. You know, it was just. That's what we did. You know, people asked me what my job was. My job was. I was a criminal. That was my job. Every waking moment of the day, we committed crimes. If my eyes were open, I was crime. You know, that's how. You know, and that's why when I. You know, that's why I had no skills. You know, my father taught me how to be a criminal. I mean, because that's what he believed in.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, and then when I got out of the life, I had no skills. And, you know, it's. And it was kind of scary because I didn't. I don't know how to fix it. I still have no skills. You know, I had no Social Security. I had no 401k. I had nothing. You know, I. The mob doesn't give you a retirement plan. You know what I mean? There was no money, you know, and so now I. When I cooperated and I got out of the life when, you know, I'm 60 years old, I had no skills. And then one day my phone rings, and it's this friend of mine that ran a treatment center. And he goes, listen, I spoke to the owner of the treatment center, and we want to offer you a job. I said, a job doing what? They said, we think you would make a good counselor. I said, what the fuck? A counselor? I don't know nothing about being a counselor. He goes, no. He goes, listen, we think with your life experience and everything you overcame, did a mob jail, you know, you got a lot of years sober. We think you would, you know, really do good as a counselor. And we want to put you back in school to become a counselor. I said, school now, you know, he goes, yeah, you know, we'll pay for it, you know, and, you know, and I thought about it and I, you know, and I did it. I packed up and I left. Where? Michigan. I was living in Michigan at the time, and I came to Florida and I became a counselor.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

You know, so really. So I guess my skill was my, My life.

[A]

Your experience. My experience because you got clean years prior. So.

[B]

Yeah, you know, and that's another thing, you know, here I am now I'm clean. That's when my thought process started changing. So now I'm clean and I'm trying to work this 12 step program, and I'm hanging out with people that are clean. And I'm still in the street, I'm still committing crimes and, and where things started rubbing me the wrong way. Like, things that had never phased me were now starting to. Like, I was starting to develop in spite of myself, really. I was developing a conscience. And I started feeling uncomfortable again in my own skin. And then, you know, like, I hit a bottom with the drugs. Like, I started hitting the bottom with my life, my lifestyle, you know. You know, now I had two kids. I had a little girl. I had a son, a daughter. And, you know, I'm. Now here I am. I'm clean. I'm clean a lot of years. I'm clean like nine or 10 years. And I'm locked up in Attica, which was a violent prison, cockroaches crawling all over the wall, you know, and I'm going, like, what the am I doing?

[A]

Geez.

[B]

You know, and then I got indicted. While I'm in prison, I get indicted in Florida. Oh. You know, and, you know, now it's just. Was, you know, like, it was a crazy way to live. And. But I never knew that. And, you know, I never knew that until I got clean and I started working on myself, you know, and then I wrote. I wrote like an autobiography of my life. Of course. You, like, strike. Yeah. I don't know if you know anything about the 12 steps.

[A]

I do.

[B]

All right, so. So, you know, in the fourth step, I had to take a personal inventory of myself, and I wrote that inventory while I was in Attica in a jail cell.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And I. And, and, and I looked at, you know, and, and, you know, I, I just said that I can't do this anymore, you know, and.

[A]

Damn. Hell of a story, man. That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because in prison you're surrounded by drugs, but you're sober. So it must have been a weird kind of dynamic, right?

[B]

Yeah. You know what? This is what I, you know, this is what, this is how I felt. Somebody asked me that question in prison. So now I'm in Attica. I don't know if you know. So now I'm in Attic. I have a federal detainer army. So they sent, they raised my, that, my, my, my security to, to high, super high. So now Attica is probably one of the most secured, violent prisons in the New York state system. And now I'm in Attica. But now I have, now this is how crazy life is. So now I have my own cell. I have a little 13 inch TV in my cell. I have a box window that in the winter it's like a refrigerator. I have two hot pots, I have a robe. I have some comforts, right? So now, so now someone asked me one day, why don't you know you don't even smoke a joint and everything? I said, listen, why would I smoke a joint? And then they take my urine and I give them a dirty urine and I gonna lose everything in my cell. Is it worth me my tv? It's not worth my tv. It's not worth my hot pot. Because, because people that have, people that have issues with drugs have to understand that when you cross over the imaginary line into addiction, when you use any substance, there's going to be consequences. And until you, until you're not okay with those consequences, you're going to keep using. So my consequence in Attica was if I used, yeah, I would like to use. I would like to smoke a joint right now. I would like to go smoke a joint today. But if I use then and I gave them a dirty urine, I'm going to lose all this stuff. And that's a consequence I wasn't willing to take.

[A]

Smart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Damn, you seem really level headed for all the stuff you've been through. Dude, do you, do you have any like PTSD or like.

[B]

I probably do. My, I wasn't there. Well, I think my therapist. I was in therapy because when I first went into the, you know, when I, when I left New York, I had to live under assumed name and everything. And I was getting a little jammed up in the head because nobody knew who I was and I needed someone to know who I was. So I found a therapist and I told them.

[A]

Sopranos.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I told her who I was, you know, and she used to do so. She said, I had a lot of trouble, I had a trauma, I was traumatized oh, yeah, no, I definitely was. You know, it's not normal things I did. Yeah. So she, we were working on a few things. I don't know if I have ptsd. I mean, I do have some issues. I have issues.

[A]

Nightmares.

[B]

I have nightmares. Yeah, I have, I have some. I get. Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night and, you know, like, I think about things I did, people I hurt. You know what I mean? Like I hurt my family. You know, I did bad things. I mean, I. Listen, I was a violent criminal. You know, I did damage to my children. I missed a lot of their lives. I feel some remorse. I feel like I get, I missed a lot. I, I believed in what I did. I believed in that way of life because that's was what's instilled to me. And, and, and I didn't take other people into consideration. And I think I gave up a lot for that life. Like, I went to jail. The last time I went to jail, my daughter was three. I got out, she was 11. My son was 13. I got out when he was 21.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

You know, I gave up so much for that life. And at the end of the day, it wasn't worth it because that life betrayed me.

[A]

Damn, that's a deep statement, man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that was your whole life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's everything. You knew your father's life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Holy crap. But you didn't feel the remorse in the moment. It was all after.

[B]

Didn't even phase me. Listen, I got locked up for murdering my brother in law. I picked him up and drove him to a place where he got murdered. Like I, I, I drove him to his death.

[A]

And you knew.

[B]

Yeah, it was. I knew. Of course. We planned it for months.

[A]

Your father planned it, right?

[B]

Yeah, he okayed it.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

John Gotti okayed it, you know, and it didn't even phase me.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Now I think of it now and like, it's horrible. Like, you know, like I, you know, I didn't take my sisters into consideration. I didn't take my niece into consideration. Like it was, it was horrible what I did, you know, and now I think of it now and like, how do I, how do I, how do I mend that fence? How do I, you know, how do I, you know my niece hates me. It's terrible. We did, you know, but back then, you know, the way I, it just, I was just a different person.

[A]

Yeah. That's crazy. You were so programmed to that life. You didn't even think about how other people would react.

[B]

I, I Picked him up by. He was smiling. He got in my car.

[A]

Oh, he had no idea.

[B]

Oh, no. He had no idea.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

No, you had no idea.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah, that's the mob. But that's. Listen, that's the mob of father and son planning a murder. That's. That's the mob, you know, And a guy like Joey Molina, speaking of Joe Molina, like, guys like that and guys that are in the street today, like, they think that that's okay. Like I'm wrong for thinking the way I. I'm wrong for thinking that that was wrong.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, how crazy is that? Yeah.

[A]

You were taught to never snitch, never rat on anyone.

[B]

Never. Never. You know, that's okay. You know, if someone. Well, you, like Sammy. Sammy talks. Sammy the Bull. He. He frames it, like, really well. People listen. If you choose to be in the life of the mob, his rules, and you have to know it going in that if you break these rules, you might pay with your life. And the people that I know died, broke the rules, you know, but who are we to judge them? Who are we to decide who lives and who dies? That's. That's my point. Like, who. Who was John Gotti to decide who lives or dies? Who was Fat Andy to decide who lives or dies? But that's the life that they led, that if you break rules, you could die. And the people that died broke the rules.

[A]

How many people that you were in.

[B]

With survived that I was in with? Oh, I mean, a lot. A couple of my friends were killed. I mean, you know, I know guys that I. You know, my personal friend. My brother's friend was murdered, and my brother's best friend was murdered. Yeah. I mean, you know, a lot of people. I know. My friend Greg was married in the front of his house. My friend Tito was murdered. He killed Jimmy Burke's son. He did. Tito the barber. He was murdered in his barbershop, you know.

[A]

Wow. Yeah. They're either locked up or dead. I think Michael said only one guy on that top 75 money list is still alive. Other than him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Crazy.

[B]

Especially his family. His family was one of the most violent families. They were killing each other. They had more wars than I could. Yeah.

[A]

I wonder why. That's weird.

[B]

It's just. Was all internal. I don't know, all over, you know, ego, you know, who wanted to be the boss, who wanted. You know. Listen, the mob runs on greed and ego.

[A]

Yeah. You were probably dealing with a lot of that, right?

[B]

All. All the time.

[A]

Especially the way you grew up with.

[B]

Under the boss, greedy going, self centeredness.

[A]

You seem like a really changed guy now though.

[B]

I am. You know, it's funny because an FBI agent once told me that me, you and your father are social pets. And I didn't know what he meant. Wait, I, I, I, I said, what, the social? He said, no, not a psychopath. You and your father are sociopaths. And then I looked it up and I said, damn, he's right. I was a sociopath. But not now. I mean, I still have a couple of the traits left I'm working on. Like those are my character defects. Yeah. But, you know, I could never live that life. I'm definitely not the same person, you know, Without a doubt. You know, like I look at my son, I could never do the things with my son that my father did with me, you know? Definitely. Yeah. Not the same person.

[A]

When did you know the FBI was on you? Did they call you or someone beforehand.

[B]

Before the arrest for the last time for the murder?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No. So what happened was I had to go. My, I had to go to a wedding that night.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I lived out in Long island in Commack, and I had to drive to Queens to pick up my son. So I drove to Queens and he wasn't home yet. So there's a park bench in front of his house. And it's funny, so I go sit on the bench. It's a nice June day out, sun shining. And I, and I'm laying on the bench with my eyes closed. Like my eyes back on this. And all of a sudden I hear, don't move, you. And I open up my eyes and there's a gun right in my nose.

[A]

Holy.

[B]

And I look, right. And then the next thing I knew, it's someone who was behind me. And they literally lifted me up off the bench and they handcuffed me. And it was about eight of them.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

I didn't even hear them. They were like Indians. I didn't hear, I didn't hear nothing. I didn't hear a footstep. I heard nothing. And the next thing I knew, they threw me in a van. And they were screaming at me, we got you now, you murderer. You're going to spend the rest of your life in prison. And ba, ba, ba, ba. And that was it. My whole life flashed in front of my face at that point because I'm in this van and the guys are screaming at me. I'm handcuffed and I'm. Oh my God. And they took me. And then I got out on bail and then they put. They put me on house arrest. And then about a year later, you know, things happened and I decided to throw in the towel and I cooperated.

[A]

Wow. They arrest your dad too, for that one?

[B]

No, he was. Passed away.

[A]

Oh, he passed away.

[B]

He passed away in 99. Yeah, they just arrested me. And the shooter, this guy, skinny Dom Pisona, he was a captain in the Gambino family. He was actually the one that. That did the shooting.

[A]

How did they find out so late, like, what happened?

[B]

Other people cooperated that knew about it and led them to us. So. Yeah.

[A]

Damn. But they had no evidence. It was just their word.

[B]

Yeah, they had no evidence. There's no physical evidence. No, because the body disappeared. They never found the body. They never had a murder weapon. But they had. They had enough. They had enough to indict us. I mean, they had enough.

[A]

So just a witness testimony is enough.

[B]

Yeah. In the Fed. Yeah. You don't need a body.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

So you could just pay. Some circumstantial evidence in the federal courts is good.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's why you went with the plea route, because if you. If you went to trial, you would.

[B]

I went to. I went to the plea route because my co defendants was sort of like trying to throw me under the bus. Yeah. You know, like I was the last person with him. I picked him up and drove him somewhere, and then he disappeared. So I had some conversations with some people and I had some conversations with some attorneys, and the attorney actually told me, listen, you're going to get thrown under the bus here. You should call the government.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

You know, and. And I didn't. Couldn't do it. You know, I talk about it all the time. I still couldn't do it. The next day, my wife was driving to work and I told her to call them and tell them I couldn't make.

[A]

Wow, that was probably the toughest one for you because you had the family.

[B]

The worst. The worst. I couldn't do it. That haunts me sometimes that I cooperated. But, you know, I think because I cooperated and I changed, you know, I became a counselor. I think. I think I. I'm sort of trying to make up for all the bad I did. I guess you could say, I don't know.

[A]

Karma, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Damn, that's deep. Yeah. Because you were programmed your whole life to never, ever do that. So that must have been the toughest decision you ever had to make.

[B]

It was terrible. Yeah, it was tough. It took me a year. I used to pick up the phone and hang it up. Holy crap. I would have the FBI card in my hand and I would pick up the phone and I would hang it up.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

I couldn't do it. I used to get knots in my stomach, sweat. I couldn't do it. And I still couldn't do it. Even when I did do it, I made my wife do it. I couldn't do it because you knew.

[A]

You'D lose your whole friend group, everything.

[B]

Yeah, you know, I was. You know, I was giving up everything I knew. And, you know, I had a lot of insecurity because, like I said, I had no skills. But at that point, you know, listen, the mob wasn't the same. There was different people out there, different guys running the show. They took everything. When my father died, they really took everything from us. They weren't looking out for me. And I was done at that point. I was done. Like, I wasn't willing to spend the rest of my life in prison anymore for the mob. I wasn't willing to do it. If my father was alive or his partner, Tony Lewis was alive, I would have never cooperated because then I would implement them in a murder, and I would have never done that, you know, but the cards fell the way they fell, you know, John Gotti was dead. My old man was dead. Tony Lee was dead. You know, and I was done. I was done. I had. You know, I was done with that whole lifestyle. I was done spending time in prison and. And that was it.

[A]

What happened to Tony?

[B]

Tony Lee passed away. He had cancer. He died.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

He died. He died in 93, before I got arrested. In 95. He died two years before I got arrested.

[A]

Damn. And that was your dad's right hand, man?

[B]

Yeah, they were partners from childhood.

[A]

That's cool, man. Not a lot of guys come in together and last the whole way through.

[B]

If they made 10 cents, they got a nickel each.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

Yeah, it was a. It was like a strong enough. It was like a brother bond. It was crazy, the partnership they had. Like, nobody has a partnership like that.

[A]

I've never seen that in the mob. Maybe Gotti and Sammy.

[B]

No guardian. They were never partners.

[A]

Oh, they weren't?

[B]

No, they were just. They would, you know, if Sammy was the under bus, they were probably partners in some things, but not partners in everything.

[A]

Got it?

[B]

You know, I think. I think probably Angelo Quack at one time was John Gotti's partner. Partner. But other than that, there's not really anybody I knew that had a partnership like Tony Lee and Fatty Andy.

[A]

I mean, that's probably why it was a successful.

[B]

Oh, yeah, very. Yeah, they had a big crew. They had a big crew. Yeah. They were partners from when they were teenagers. Yeah.

[A]

That's crazy. The trust and the loyalty tease each other.

[B]

You were a window breaker before you became my partner.

[A]

Oh, I love that man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So was your grandfather in the Mafia?

[B]

Oh, you know, that's a funny thing. No, Nobody in my family was in the mob except my father.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

You know, he never had a father, so my grandfather immigrated from it from Naples, Italy, in the. In like the turn of the century. And my grandmother was a teenager when they got married. My father was the youngest child out of eight. My grandfather, in 1932, got hit by a trolley car.

[A]

Damn.

[B]

And died. And my father was only six.

[A]

Holy crap.

[B]

@ the time of my grandfather's death, my father's best friends were. His were this guy Lenny, the donor, and Larry Abendanto. Larry's father was the dasher, and Lenny's uncle was Happy Mayonnaise. They were both members of Murder, Incorporated. I'm sure you know, Murders, Incorporated. They were. They all got the electric chair with Lepke and Sing Sing.

[A]

Holy crap.

[B]

So they became his father figures, these mob guys, because his friends, family were all mobbed up. The Maonis were all mobbed up. The Abidandos, these people all mobbed up. So they became like his father figures. And when he became a teenager, he started working for them. So. So. And he used to tell me he's the way he is because he had no father.

[A]

Wow, that's deep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Because a young kid is so impressionable. Right?

[B]

Of course, my uncles, his brothers, all were legitimate guys.

[A]

Oh, none of them joined my uncle.

[B]

No, they all worked. My two uncles worked for the transit. One of my uncles, I mean, he made money legally within the transit. He was shy, lack of money, you know, booking bets, but he was legitimate. He. They all were World War II veterans. My three uncles totally all legit or. And my mother's family too. All legit.

[A]

Damn, that is interesting.

[B]

Gene. Gene, my cousin Gene, his grandfather, my uncle Junior. He was a little. He was legit, but not legit. He. He was a bus driver, but he was a criminal.

[A]

Dude, Gene is funny, man. Because with his mouth, the fact that he survived with. Because he just says whatever he says.

[B]

Yeah. His grandfather was my mother's kid brother.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So he's my second cousin.

[A]

Were you, like, mentoring him through the. Through the game?

[B]

No, you know, I was away when I went away, he was a kid when I went Away. He was only 12.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

When I went away in 95, 96, he was 12. He was a year younger than my son. Him and my son are very tight. They grew up together. So when I went away, he was 12. When I came out eight, nine years later, he. He was in the mob.

[A]

Like he was already made.

[B]

No, he was just running around with, with, with the Banana family. And, and so I never really mentored him or anything. I was away them formative years, you know, but when I came out, I ran into him. I was. Went to get a haircut in Howard beach, and he was in there getting a manicure and everything. And, you know, he paid for my haircut, you know. Yeah. But. Yeah, so I missed out on, on that, you know.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

That education that he got.

[A]

Did your kid want to join?

[B]

Whether he wanted to join or not, I made sure that that was never going to happen. You know what I mean? He grew up. The first 21 years of my son's life, either I was in jail and my father was in jail, or we were both in jail at the same time. The first 21 years of his life, he literally grew up in a prison visiting room. And I made it a point that he was never going to wind up in the shoes I was in, you know, And I used to tell him, I'm not going to make the same mistakes as grandpa. You know, I always made sure he worked. I always got him jobs. His mother made sure, you know, I mean, he got in trouble, you know, like a kid, you know, normal kid.

[A]

Trouble, you know, principal's office.

[B]

Yeah. You know, stuff like that. I had to bail him out of a few things, you know, I had to bail him out of a couple of Genetics, man. Yeah, but no, but he's a hard worker. He works now, you know, he, he, he works, he works. I made sure of that.

[A]

Nice. Yeah, that's important, man. Anthony, it's been cool. What do you got coming up next? And where could people find you?

[B]

Well, they can find me on Reformed Gangsters on my podcast. They could find me@anthony ruggianojr.com on my website. I got a Patreon page. I'm gonna be August 11th at 10:00 on the History Channel. I'm gonna be on Gangland. That's a show that's coming out. I have a few things going. I'm gonna be back out in Arizona with Sammy. I have some mob tours that are really cool on my Patreon page if people want to check them out. And that's it? Oh, yes. Subscribe.

[A]

We'll link below. Thanks. Come on, man.

[B]

Oh, my pleasure.