The Untold Podcast Journey: From Gangs to Gangland | Anthony Ruggiano #886

Summary

Digital Social Hour Podcast Summary: "The Untold Podcast Journey: From Gangs to Gangland | Anthony Ruggiano #886"

Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Anthony Ruggiano
Release Date: November 13, 2024

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Introduction to Anthony Ruggiano's Journey

In this compelling episode of Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly sits down with Anthony Ruggiano, a man whose life story traverses the dark corridors of gang involvement, addiction, and incarceration, ultimately leading to redemption and personal growth. Anthony offers an unfiltered look into his tumultuous past within the mob, his battle with substance abuse, and his transformation into a counselor dedicated to helping others overcome addiction.

Early Involvement with the Mob and Gang Life (00:53 - 08:22)

Anthony begins by recounting his entrenched connections within the mob, highlighting the pervasive presence of Italian gang members in both state and federal prisons.

Anthony Ruggiano (01:22): "There was that many Italian guys, from all over the country."

He details his early exposure to organized crime through his father, a "made guy," and explains how his environment in the 1970s and 80s Manhattan club scene normalized the use of cocaine and alcohol.

Anthony Ruggiano (03:20): "We were blowing coke. It was very expensive. It was like the beautiful people did it back then."

Struggle with Addiction and Path to Recovery (01:21 - 05:34)

Anthony candidly discusses his descent into addiction, fueled by the high-pressure lifestyle of the mob and the prevalence of substances like "free basin" cocaine, a precursor to crack cocaine.

Anthony Ruggiano (02:20): "I'm coming up on 36 years clean."

He reflects on his decision to seek help in 1988, supported by his father's partner, Tony Lee, leading to his long-term sobriety. Anthony emphasizes the dangers of today's drug landscape, particularly the prevalence of fentanyl, which has made addiction more deadly than ever.

Anthony Ruggiano (05:07): "Kids today, it's. It's terrible. If I was getting high today, I'd be dead crazy."

Incarceration and Life Inside Prison (08:22 - 28:44)

Anthony delves into his multiple incarcerations, primarily for bookmaking, extortion, and murder—crimes that were integral to his role within the mob. He provides a vivid account of prison life, including his interactions with other mob members and the internal conflicts that plagued organized crime families.

Anthony Ruggiano (09:05): "That's crazy. Money. I mean, it's just, I had a nothing vending company and I was bringing in 20, 25,000 a week."

He explains how the introduction of RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) cases severely impacted organized crime, leading to widespread indictments and the eventual downfall of many mob families.

Anthony Ruggiano (30:08): "It's all over for us."

Relationships with Mob Figures (28:44 - 48:47)

Anthony shares his close ties with infamous mob figures like John Gotti, offering rare insights into their personal dynamics and operations. He recalls how Gotti admired him, even extending gestures like buying him a car post-recovery.

Anthony Ruggiano (20:43): "We had a different relationship with him, and we lived in Ozone Park, so we had access to him every day."

He also touches on family influences, explaining how his father's involvement in the mob shaped his own path, despite legitimate relatives who stayed away from criminal activities.

Anthony Ruggiano (48:42): "Nobody in my family was in the mob except my father."

Turning Point and Redemption (48:48 - 51:37)

Anthony discusses the pivotal moment when he decided to leave the mob lifestyle. Faced with mounting legal pressures and personal disillusionment, he chose to cooperate with authorities, a decision that forever altered his life trajectory.

Anthony Ruggiano (46:10): "I was done. I wasn't willing to spend the rest of my life in prison anymore for the mob."

His transition from mobster to counselor was marked by personal introspection and a desire to atone for his past, using his experiences to guide others towards recovery.

Reflections and Current Endeavors (51:38 - 53:10)

Reflecting on his past, Anthony expresses remorse for the lives he affected and the personal losses he endured. He acknowledges the psychological scars left by his actions and the environment in which he was raised.

Anthony Ruggiano (38:36): "I hurt my family. I did bad things. I feel like I missed a lot."

Today, Anthony leverages his story through his podcast, Reform Gangsters, and upcoming appearances on platforms like the History Channel's Gangland. He is committed to educating others about the perils of addiction and the possibility of personal transformation.

Anthony Ruggiano (52:41): "I'm gonna be on Gangland. That's coming out."

Conclusion

Anthony Ruggiano's narrative is a powerful testament to the capacity for change and the enduring impact of personal choices. Through his candid storytelling, he sheds light on the inner workings of organized crime, the struggles of addiction, and the redemptive power of self-improvement and community support. Listeners are left with a profound understanding of the complexities of human behavior and the hope that even the darkest pasts can lead to meaningful futures.

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Notable Quotes:

• Anthony Ruggiano (03:20): "We were blowing coke. It was very expensive. It was like the beautiful people did it back then."
• Anthony Ruggiano (05:07): "Kids today, it's. It's terrible. If I was getting high today, I'd be dead crazy."
• Anthony Ruggiano (30:08): "It's all over for us."
• Anthony Ruggiano (46:10): "I was done. I wasn't willing to spend the rest of my life in prison anymore for the mob."
• Anthony Ruggiano (38:36): "I hurt my family. I did bad things. I feel like I missed a lot."
• Anthony Ruggiano (52:41): "I'm gonna be on Gangland. That's coming out."

Where to Find Anthony Ruggiano:

• Podcast: Reform Gangsters
• Website: anthonyruggianojr.com
• Patreon: anthonyruggianojr.com/patreon
• Upcoming Appearance: History Channel's Gangland on August 11th at 10:00 PM

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Anthony's journey from a life steeped in organized crime to one dedicated to helping others is both harrowing and inspiring, offering valuable lessons on resilience, accountability, and the power of personal change.

Transcript

[Host]

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[Anthony Ruggiano]

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[Host]

Did you have the same squad you hung out with in prison?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I always hung out with Italian guys, you know, mob guys. You know, I did state time, New York state time, and then I did federal prison same time. So it's different in the New York State. The Italian guys were like, we were like pretty much hooked up with the Latin Kings. Like we had each back and the feds. It was all. There was so many Italian guys. So we were all clipped up really, by what city we came. There was the New York crew, the Philly crew, the Chicago crew.

[Host]

There was that many Italian guys?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Oh, yeah. From all over the country. Yeah.

[Host]

All right, guys, got Anthony Ruggiano here today. Thanks for coming on, man.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Oh, my pleasure. I've been looking forward to it.

[Host]

Yeah, I've been seeing you blow up on the Internet.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Thank you.

[Host]

Yeah, thank you. How long you been doing the podcast for now?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

About three years. Coming up on three years. You know, I just got into this, you know, I had no clue about podcasts or shows and I just got a phone call one day that these people in England were looking to keep hearing things about me and my father and they wanted to put me on this show, National Geographic Narco wars. And I did it. And then one thing led to another and I wanted to getting my own podcast.

[Host]

Nice.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah.

[Host]

And do you interview people or is it just you?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

You know, I do both. I interview, I tell my own story. You know, I interview people. I interview people that I know. I interview people that are in recovery because I'm in recovery. So yeah, I interview people.

[Host]

How long you been in recovery?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

I'm coming up on 36 years clean. And so, dude, congrats.

[Host]

Yeah, I'm 27.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

So I got clean in 1989. January 1989.

[Host]

And it was really bad before that.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, it was the Last few years were bad, you know, the last few years were pretty. Were kind of crazy. Yeah.

[Host]

What was the substance? It was alcohol, cocaine. Oh, cocaine.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Alcohol? Yeah. I was free basin cocaine at the end, you know, it was not pretty.

[Host]

You were free basin? What's that?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

It's before crack that we would make. Cook it up ourselves and smoke it. And then after, without. It progressed into crack cocaine. But this they used to call. I don't know if you ever heard of Richard Pryor. Did you ever hear Richard Pryor? He was a famous comedian. He caught on fire from free basin. That's how it was a form. So you took the cocaine and you. You purified it yourself and you smoked it.

[Host]

Whoa.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah.

[Host]

So you kind of made it on your own.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, it was bad. Damn, it was bad.

[Host]

And what. What compelled you to that addiction, you think?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Well, you know, and I'm a 70s kid, so I'm in, you know, in the early 70s, you know, I'm in the mob. My father's a made guy. You know what I mean? So. So now a lot of do, and I'm running around Manhattan. I'm running around to all these clubs, and everybody's blowing coke. You know, it was very expensive. It was like the beautiful people did it back then, I guess you could say. And it was all in all the clubs in Manhattan. And it started out like anything else, recreationally, having a good time, sniffing a little coke, drinking the girls, the. This to that. And, you know, then over the years, you know, the progression of the disease of addiction. And then, you know, in the. Just in the early 70s, you know, which started out on weekends, and then as time went on and then into the 80s, it started becoming an issue, I guess maybe the way I was wired, I mean, because, you know, it's funny when you talk about addiction, because people that I used with, you know, when I was a kid in my 20s, didn't become addicts, but I did. So, you know, maybe it's just hereditary or the way I was wired, my personality. And then in the 80s, it became an issue. It started becoming an issue. And then in 88, I. I went into a treatment center. My father's partner, Tony Lee, paid for me to go into a treatment center in Vermont. And I got clean and I. And I came out and, you know, I've been clean.

[Host]

Wow. These days, it seems like because they're laced, it doesn't even seem worth it.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

It's terrible. You know, now I work in it. I work in. I. That's what I do now. I work. Besides having my podcast and all this and doing these interviews, I work in a detox now. I became a counselor. I was a counselor, case manager. Now I'm a technician at a detox. So I deal with addiction every day.

[Host]

Damn. Yeah, it just seems like the chances of dying are so high now, it's not even worth just randomly doing it at a party.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Oh, no. With the fentanyl, I tell my patients, today you're playing Russian roulette. If you buy street drugs. Today you're playing Russian roulette because fentanyl is in everything. I mean, it's literally in everything. You know, you think you're buying cocaine and you're going to do a few lines of coke, there's fentanyl in it and you're overdosing. You think you're buying some Xanax, you know, some. Some roof spa, you know, Xanax, and there's fentanyl in it. So. Kids today, it's. It's. If I was getting high today, I'd be dead crazy. Yeah.

[Host]

Back then when you were doing it, no one was overdosing, right?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

They were, but not like today, you know, like randomly, you know, from heroin. It was all heroin. You know, I never messed with heroin, but yeah, that. Overdoses were not like today. Every day. People are dying every day. It's terrible.

[Host]

Were you strictly on the consumer side or were you pushing it too?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, I.

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[Anthony Ruggiano]

How did you.

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[Anthony Ruggiano]

I am so happy. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

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[Host]

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[Anthony Ruggiano]

Really wasn't, you know, I mean, I pushed it once in a while. You know, my brother had a very big marijuana business back when marijuana was illegal. Unfortunately, he was way ahead of his time. So he had a really big marijuana business in the 70s and 80s, but other than that, we weren't pushing, pushing drugs.

[Host]

Did he get popped?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

He, you know, it's funny, he never got popped, but wow. The guys that worked for him and ran for him, a couple of them went to prison for it, but he never.

[Host]

Oh, so they didn't rat on him?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, no, no.

[Host]

Nice.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No. So they went to prison for marijuana.

[Host]

It's so silly to say it now, right? It's legal.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

I mean, every. Listen, even me, I went to prison for bookmaking. It's legal today. Sports betting numbers is the lotto. That's everything I went to jail for outside of murder is legal today.

[Host]

Crazy. That makes you feel pissed probably, right?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

It does at times. It really does. Yeah, definitely.

[Host]

You served years?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

I went to jail for years. I got. I spent 14 years in prison.

[Host]

Holy crap. Was that mainly for the bookmaking?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Well, no. When I. The first time I went to prison was in 1978. I went to prison for. We robbed the liquor warehouse. And then I went to prison in 91. That was for policy. That was for the Lottery. We had a number business lottery. Yeah, you know, the lottery, like the, you know that they have now the states all have the lottery, the numbers. So we had an illegal number business like. And I went to jail for that. And then in, in 95 I got arrested for sports betting, for bookmaking and I went to jail for that and extortion and a whole bunch of other stuff.

[Host]

Damn. Which one brought in the most money?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Oh, the bookmaking. And brought in the most. The numbers. Really? The numbers brought in the most money. Cause that's an everyday thing. That's like people are betting dollars and 50 cents and quarter dimes and $5. So you know, we would, it was a lot of money.

[Host]

Wow. So you literally had your own lottery. That's crazy.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, we did.

[Host]

I didn't know that was a business.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, that was a big business. Yeah, it was a big business. Big. Yeah. But I went to jail for it, of course. Yeah, Yeah.

[Host]

I always wonder what the, the mafia does now for money. Cuz it's a lot harder to get away with stuff, right?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

You know, that's a good question because I was talking to somebody the other day, like I don't know what they do anymore because everything, like I said, everything I did to earn money today is legal. You know, they're selling drugs, that's for sure. I mean that, that, that's for sure. And probably, you know, white collar crimes, you know, stocks, bonds, whatever they could. Listen, the mob is going to do whatever they could do to make money. They're going to, they're going to, they're going to figure, think ways to, you know, make money. But I, everything I did to make money back then, I couldn't do today. First of all, there's too much surveillance. There's cameras everywhere you go. I mean, there's cameras in people's doorbells. It's insane. And you'd know like I made money with fraudulent credit cards. You couldn't do that no more because every store you go in, there's cameras. Then I had a vending company. I mean, I'm sure there's still people out there with gambling machines in bodegas and all that stuff. So they're still making money with gambling. Because even though gambling is legal, not everybody has a bank account. So if you don't have a bank account, you can't hook the app up to a checking account or a savings account. You can't bet legally. So you're going to go to a bookmaker. So there's ways for them to make money not like it used to be. And there's no more violence, so no.

[Host]

More, like, murders or anything?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, they're not doing that anymore.

[Host]

I mean, was it because they kept killing each other?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

They were like, yeah, you know, it's because. Really, because of the surveillance, because of the laws and because people are cooperating.

[Host]

Yeah, the surveillance is insane. I'm watching these cases on these rappers right now. And they tracked the murder from their phones and the towers. It showed they were at the same place at the same time.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah. And then they got like, the Colombo there was. It's fun. And then you got. Everybody's on tick tock and YouTube and, you know, and Instagram. And.

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[Anthony Ruggiano]

A Colombo guy, a captain in the Colombo family. Michael Francis, whole family. He was on the lam hiding from the FBI, and his son put his picture on Instagram or Tick tock and the guy had to go surrender himself. They knew where he was.

[Host]

Yeah. Because all they need is a photo now, right?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

That's it.

[Host]

Even your Tesla, if you have a Tesla, it pretty much tracks wherever you go.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Everywhere.

[Host]

That's crazy.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

So the way I made money back then, I could never. I want to know how to make money illegally today, you know? You know? Well, I. I would, because somebody asked me the other day, what if I had to do anything illegal today? What would I do? And I says, I would do two things. They said, what? I would smuggle untaxed cigarettes from Florida to New York because the New York cigarettes are 17 a pack. And then when I got to New York, I would go to Canal street and get knockoff Gucci's and Louis Vuitton and bring them back to Florida. That's the only thing I would know how to do right now. But I'm not. I mean, that's what I would do.

[Host]

Yeah. Cigarettes in prison sell for a lot though, right?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

A lot. Right now you can't smoke in it. You got to smuggle them in. It's like drugs now.

[Host]

Crazy. When you were in prison, were there drugs everywhere?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Everywhere.

[Host]

I wonder if it's still like that.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

The first time I went to prison, I had my own drugs. I mean, I was getting. The COs were bringing me marijuana and volumes.

[Host]

Wow, that's not too bad then.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, no, it was good. Yeah. The second and third time, I, I didn't, you know, I wasn't using them. I was clean and everything, so I, I had no use for anything like that. But I did have use for food. They were bringing us food. A lot of, you know, nice. So that, that was good.

[Host]

Did you have the same squad you hung out with in prison?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I always hung out with Italian guys, you know, mob guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host]

You're probably protected pretty well.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

We had our own little clique. We were always hooked up all in this. It's different, this, you know, I did state time, New York state time, and then I did federal prison time. So it's different. In the New York State, the Italian guys were like. We were like pretty much hooked up with the Latin Kings. Like we had each other back. Yeah. In the state prisons and the feds, it was all. There was so many Italian guys. So we were all clicked up really, by what city we came from. There was the New York crew, Philly crew, the Chicago crew.

[Host]

There was that many?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Oh, yeah. From all over the country. Yeah.

[Host]

Holy crap. Which Fed, Joe? Prison were you in?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

I was in school kill for five years. I was in Otisville. I bounced around, but I did most of my third time in school killed.

[Host]

How was.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

My roommate was Kevin Kelly. He was a Westie. Ever heard of the Westies? Yeah.

[Host]

The Irish, right?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah. From the, from Hell's Kitchen. His name is you?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah.

[Host]

Were you, were you on good terms with the Westies when you were out of prison?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

When I was out of prison, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. They were with the Gambino family.

[Host]

Oh, they were, yeah. Oh, okay.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

What about other, like, spots like biker.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Gangs and you know, I, I never really did any business with biker gangs. I knew a couple of them, you know, but I wasn't really friendly friendly with them. We never really had any much interact with them. But the Westies, a lot of interactions, A lot of interaction with Dominicans I had. Because I had a vending company, so my vending company were machines and there were a lot of illegal gambling machines. And I had them in like bad neighborhoods, more to say in the hood, that's where the money was. And I had them in Dominican after hour clubs and Puerto Rican bodegas. So I did a lot of business with the Hispanic Population.

[Host]

Interesting. So all the beef then was internal with other families?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Mainly, yeah, for sure. Yeah.

[Host]

That's what I noticed with all the documentaries I watched. It's never like other.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, always. Always within our. Amongst ourselves.

[Host]

Was it within your family or was it with the other families mainly?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

In my day, it was just within. In the Gambino family. But, I mean, you know, all the. The marble was. That were, in my time were all internal. Like the Colombo war. It was internal. Michael Francis could talk to you about all about that. Yeah, so it was all. And even the people that got killed in the Gambino family was all internal.

[Host]

Damn. Was your dad pretty open with you about everything or was he keeping it pretty?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, he was very open with me. I mean, in the beginning, you know, growing up, when I was a kid, he was in the mob since the day I was born. He got. He became a main member the same year I was born in 1953. So I grew up in it, in the life, I mean, you know, and in the beginning, I didn't really know what he did, but I just knew something was different. But when I started at 16, when I actually went to work for him, then he started to school me in the life. And then when I was in my early 20s, he started telling me about acts of violence that he personally committed with other members. Like, he would tell me, we would be out one night and we would meet this guy, and he would tell me I did a piece of work with him that meant, you know, they committed a murder together.

[Host]

Damn.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Because in the mob, they consider murder work. That's the code name. Like, he did a piece of work.

[Host]

Wow. And he was just telling you this out in your 20s?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, my 20s. Yeah, my 20s.

[Host]

And how did you react? Were you like, holy crap, this is serious?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Honestly, I was impressed.

[Host]

You know, I didn't expect that answer.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

At that point in time. You know, listen, you gotta understand, I was raised in this, with this mentality that that way of life was the right way of life, and society out there's way of life was the wrong way of life. So this was ingrained in my brain. And these are the people I grew up with. These are the adults that I grew up around. So when I got into the street, like, I was impressed that I was Fat Andy's son. So that gave me, like, a little swagger, you know, I got some kind of respect. And I liked the feeling. It was like a drug. I liked that feeling. I liked doors being open for me, you know, Like, I like being able to go to the Copacabana, like in Goodfellows. Through the basement, up through the kitchen, you know.

[Host]

Wow. That actually happened?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Oh, yeah.

[Host]

Oh, that's.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

That's a real thing. Yeah. And. And I liked it, you know, so. So, you know, when he told me, and. And his reputation, I. I liked it. I. Like, you know, his reputation impressed me.

[Host]

Right.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

You know what I mean? The mob life impressed me. And he was a. He was like. He was a big figure in the mob. So when he told me about things like that, it really didn't faze me. Now, now when I think of it now, you know, I was crazy.

[Host]

You were just programmed.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

It's crazy. You know, like. And then later on, you know, him and. Him and I actually committed a murder together. You know, like, it's insane.

[Host]

Wow. You and your dad.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah.

[Host]

Damn.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

That's. Well, not together. He was in prison, and he. Okay. To murder.

[Host]

Okay.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah.

[Host]

That's nuts. And sometimes the flashiness is the demise of the person. Like what? God.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Without a doubt. Yeah, well, he was way too. I mean, that was crazy. He was on the front page of Time magazine. My father was never that flesh. I mean, my father was front page news. That's how we found out, you know, that's how my kid brother found out my father was in the mob because he was on the front page.

[Host]

So he had no idea?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, he was, because he was two years younger than me. So when my father had gotten arrested for bookmaking sports because it was illegal, and it was on the front page of the newspaper, and my father was upstairs, and my father said, did Albert read the newspaper? And I said, yeah, because he was a. He was a really good baseball player. My brother and my father used to go to all those Little League games. And he had a game that night, and my father went downstairs and says to my brother, you read the paper? And he said, yeah. And. And he says, you still want me to come to the baseball game with you? And my brother said, of course I do. So that's how my brother found out he was in the mob. And then it's funny, because we went to the game that night, and all the fathers, all the baseball fathers, they didn't know my father was in the mob. Now they all knew. They were like, oh, Andy, we didn't know. They were, like, his best friend, you know? You know, they were, like, so thrilled. Yeah.

[Host]

They suckered up.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah.

[Host]

Because back then, that's massive respect.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Big. And then even me, like, in 1974, I got arrested on Mulberry Street. In Little Italy. I got arrested, and it was in the newspaper. That was the first time my name was in the newspaper. You know, I bec. I went out that weekend, and I was like a celebrity. You know what I mean? Like, it was, you know, it was intoxicating.

[Host]

Yeah. I could see why Gotti fell in love with the attention.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Of course, I always used to go out with John Gotti. He used to sign autographs.

[Host]

Damn. Oh, so you were hanging with him?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Hanging with him. He bought me a car when I got out of treatment. Out of the drugs? Treatment.

[Host]

Wow. So you were really close with him?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Oh, yeah. I was very tight with him. He, like. For some reason, he liked me. Thank God.

[Host]

I haven't heard many positive things about him, but it sounds like you were.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, see, I have. We have a different. We had a different. Me, my family and my friends had a very different relationship with him than the rest of the city because we knew him from when he was a nobody. Like, we all come from the same neighborhood. My father knew him since he was a kid.

[Host]

Wow.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

His partner, Tony Lee, knew him since he was a teenager. So we, you know, I knew him from when I was 16. He was in his 20s, so, you know, we knew him before he was John Gotti, let's say. So we had a different relationship with him, and we lived in Ozone park, so we had access to him every day.

[Host]

Got it.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

You know what I mean? And we had some things in common, you know, So I got along really good with him, and he always looked out for me.

[Host]

Nice. Were you telling him to tone it down or. No, no. You just let him live it up.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, because actually, the people that were around them really like the notoriety. Listen, any mob guy that tells you they don't like reading their names in the newspaper full of. Even if it's derogatory stuff, they like it. You know what I mean? They like it.

[Host]

Did you ever deal with Sammy back then, too?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, I, I. But I knew Sammy, you know, I never had any dealings with him personally, but, you know, we knew each other, you know, he used to. You know, he. He was. He was. He was a very stern guy back then. But, yeah, I used to see him all the time at the Ravenite. And my old man and his partner had a construction company. They did business with Sammy, you know, with construction stuff. But I. I didn't know him like I know him now.

[Host]

Man, his stories are legendary. Yeah, he's escaped death many times.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Many times.

[Host]

I'm sure you have, too.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah.

[Host]

Was there any moments in your career where you're like, I might not walk out of this room.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

There was a couple of meetings I went on that were kind of dangerous. Like, I went on. Did you ever see the Gangs of New York? That movie? The Gangs of New York with Leonardo.

[Host]

DiCaprio a while ago.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Okay, well, there's the tunnels down in the Five Points. Those tunnels still exist.

[Host]

Really?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah. And I had a meeting down there once. And it was kind of eerie. Walking through those tubs. I bet, like, you know, you could get lost down there. And I was going, how to fuck I. This place, you know, And I had to meet these kids and I had to straighten out some beef, you know. But I made it out a couple of times. I had guns pointed at me, you know, I was. A couple of times I was in clubs with. Shootouts took place, you know, But I pretty. I. I made it out.

[Host]

Holy crap.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah. Back then they were probably less strict on the guns in the clubs.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Oh, yeah, we used to take guns on airplanes. We used to put them in our luggage and go on an airplane with guns. There. There was. Everything was white. I used to take a gun on an airplane.

[Host]

Holy crap. That's nuts. What was the beef? You were settling underground. Was that between families?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No. Well, what happened was we at a club. We were in a club and. And a friend of mine. Some friends of mine that were with us had a beef outside and someone got stabbed.

[Host]

Damn.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

And for some reason, they were. It was really more of a shakedown. They wanted to press charges. And this guy Greg knew this. They were like a gang from down there, and that's where they stood in these tunnels. So I had to go down there and bring them money. And it was. And. And I had to go. And they. They met me in the street and then him and this. And they walked us down through all these tunnels and to where they were waiting for me. So it was a little. It was a little eerie. I wasn't really worried about getting hurt. Hurt like killed or anything, but it was an uncomfortable feeling.

[Host]

Damn.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

I can tell you that.

[Host]

Yeah. Because people couldn't lay a hand on a made man, right?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, I mean, you could, but you would have got killed for it. I mean, even. Even a made guy's son. I mean, you know, if anybody would have killed me back then, they would have been in a lot of trouble. I mean, some people try to. I almost got stabbed one night in a club.

[Host]

Damn.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

They had a big sit down over it.

[Host]

But did they know it was you, though, or.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

They knew yeah, they said. They tried to say they didn't, but they knew who we were. And what happened was a guy went to steer me, and there was like, a ceramic ashtray on the BO bomb. And my friend. My friend Sally Minichello saw the guy, and the guy and he took the ceramic Airstream and he hit the guy on the head with it.

[Host]

Damn.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

The knife fell out of his hand, and there was a couple of wise guys there. And so we had a big sit down over that. And the kid that tried to stab me actually ran away. It's a funny story, because now the kid knew he was in trouble and he ran away.

[Host]

Geez.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Like, he left the neighborhood. He came from downtown Manhattan and he left the neighborhood. And years later, I'm in jail in 1979. I mean, this happened in the early 70s. Yeah, I'm in jail and I'm in my room because I was in a prison where we had rooms in art to kill. And this guy comes up to the. To my room and he goes, listen, there's a guy in the yard named. This kid's nickname was Mush. Because this kid Mush is in the yard. He's terrified. He found out you were here, right? So I said, oh, Mush is here, you know, so he came. He's Italian kid. He came up to. I said, go get him. And they got him. They brought him up to my room. And, you know, he was. I'm so sorry, you know, and. And, you know, I. We just let it go.

[Host]

Yeah. Wow.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Patched it up. Yeah. This was like five or six years later.

[Host]

Damn. You probably didn't even recognize him. That's crazy. How did those sit downs work? Like, is it just like the movies where each side speaks?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yes. It's like a board meeting. It's like. It's like a business meeting. You know, it's. You sit down, you know, you did. Most of the time, it's over money or, you know, business or somebody got. Or it could be over some. Something violent, you know, but most of the time, it's strictly over business over money. I mean, all the sit downs. Most. Not. I want to say all. Most of the sit downs that I was personally involved in were all over money. Who owned this, who owed money, if we owed money, they owed money, or some kind of business or some kind of location. Like. Like a vending location. Like, in other words, if you own the. If I have a vending machine in your bar and you set. You're the owner of the bar and I'm your vendor. So this is a mob thing and I'm your vendor and you sell the bar to someone else. That's still my vet. And now that's someone else is with a different mob guy or a different family. The vending location still belongs to me.

[Host]

Got it.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

But sometimes the other they would try to get out of that or, you know, and that would be a sit down because it's still my spot and I would maybe be asked to give the spot up or maybe ask to sell the spot.

[Host]

Makes sense.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

That would be a sit down. You know, stuff like that. Book making.

[Host]

What percent of money did you have to kick up when you first joined?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Well, I really didn't have to kick up anything because my father was boss, but usually you kick up 10% or you make upon, you know, make them partners. But I, I mean, when I, when I, when I, My father was in prison and he went and his partner Tony Lee died, and I just put them on the payroll. Like my vending company, I would give the them money every week. Got it out of my, my vendor company, but I didn't have to kick up. But guys, everybody kicked up usually an envelope every month. Some guys kicked up 2500, some guys kicked up a thousand. It all depended. I mean, my father and his partner probably were getting maybe 20, 30,000amonth in envelopes from people that were with him.

[Host]

That's solid back then.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

That's a lot of money. No, they made a lot of money. That's when money was money.

[Host]

Yeah. Were you guys the most successful family financially, you think?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

The Gambinos all. Without a doubt, yeah. The Gambinos in the Genovese family, they were the two biggest. But I would say, yeah, it's, it's like, oh, it's crazy. Money. I mean, it's just, I. Listen, I, I had a nothing vending company. I mean, I had a small little vendor company and I was bringing in 20, 25, 000 a week.

[Host]

Damn. A week? Yeah, dude, back then, that's like 50k these days.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah. And then, I mean, it's all gone now, unfortunately.

[Host]

Spent on lawyers.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, yeah. You know, even my. So the number business, so the policy numbers. So a number, like a lot. You know, you go in a machine, you go in stores now and there's a lottery machine and people are waiting online.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Play the lottery. Back then it was in the neighborhoods. It was in Jamaica, Queens. We were doing a day, now we weren't making it. So it's a whole procedure. So there's a banker there's a controller and then there's runners. We were the controllers. So the banker would give us 35% of the gross.

[Host]

Got it.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

And we would give the runner. So a runner, you would be a runner. You would bring me business and I would give you 25%. So if you brought me $1,000 a day in business, you kept 25%.

[Host]

Got it.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

So when the smoke cleared, the controller made 10%. We were doing grossing 80, $90,000 a.

[Host]

Day on the lottery.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

On the lottery.

[Host]

Damn.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Insane. So we, you know, now that. That 9,000 that we made every day, of course we had expenses. We had to pay people, you know, but. So you're talking a lot. And this is all cash. This ain't no credit cards. So, you know, just think of the mob, the money the mob makes.

[Host]

That's insane. And then the RICO came, right?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

The RICO came. And you know, it's funny because when the RICO started, the test case, when they got the first conviction for the rico, I remember my old man was sitting in the kitchen in his robe and he had the newspaper open. Then I came up from downstairs. I lived in the basement. We had an apartment. I came upstairs to have coffee with him and he had the newspaper open. And he says, it's all over for us.

[Host]

Whoa. So he knew right away.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

He knew right away. He said, it's all over for us. And you know what? And between him and I, we got indicted for five ricos.

[Host]

Damn, five. One's already hard to fight, but five.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

I got indicted for two. I got indicted for two federal ricos and one state rico.

[Host]

Holy crap. Which one was the toughest one?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Well, the last one I. The last federal. The last federal indictment RICO I had that I went to prison for was in 96. I got indicted in 96 in Florida, right down here in Miami, for a RICO. I took a plea. I got 10 years. And then when I got out in 04, in 05, I got indicted for another federal RICO with a murder.

[Host]

They waited till you got out?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, they waited. I committed him. My murder in 1988. They put that in a RICO. And then I cooperated later, about a year after that. So, yeah, I got indicted for three RICO's and I was one of the first people to get indicted for a state rico.

[Host]

Wow. I didn't know there was a state rico.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

State rico. New York State as a rico. They call it an orca, whatever that means. Yeah, but it's just organized crime, something.

[Host]

Holy crap.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Everything has initials.

[Host]

So they put murder under the rico. I didn't know.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, that's what they do. You. They put. It's a predicate because the RICO has to be predicate acts, so it has to be an ongoing criminal conspiracy, but it has to have predicate acts. So my RICO was murder and gambling. Those are my predicate acts to show that I stood in, you know, that it was an ongoing. I was part of an ongoing criminal enterprise first. The other RICO that I went away for in 96 with, the predicate acts were extortion, murder, conspiracy, arson. It was all predicate acts showing, like, over a period of time.

[Host]

Damn. You were living fearless back then.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, I had no conscience, you know. You know. No, really? No, I had no conscience, you know, it was just. That's what we did, you know, people asked me what my job was. My job was I was a criminal. That was my job. Every waking moment of the day, we committed crimes. If my eyes were open, I was committing crime. You know, that's how it was, you know, and that's why when I, you know, that's why I had no skills, you know, my father taught me how to be a criminal. I mean, because that's what he believed in.

[Host]

Right.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

You know, and then when I got out of the life, I had no skills. And, you know, it's. And it was kind of scary because I didn't. I don't know how to fix it. I still have no skills. You know, I had no Social Security. I had no 401k. I had nothing. You know, I. The mob doesn't give you a retirement plan. You know what I mean? There was no money, you know, and so now I. When I cooperated and I got out of the life when, you know, I'm 60 years old, I had no skills. And then one day my phone rings, and it's this friend of mine that ran a treatment center. And he goes, listen, I spoke to the owner of the treatment center, and we want to offer you a job. I said, a job doing what? They said, we think you would make a good counselor. I said, what the fuck, counselor? I don't know nothing about being a counselor. He goes, no. He goes, listen, we think with your life experience and everything you overcame, did a mob jail, you know, you got a lot of years sober. We think you would, you know, really do good as a counselor, and we want to put you back in school to become a counselor. I said, school, now. You know. He goes, yeah, you know, we'll pay for it, you know, and, you know, and I thought about it and I, you know, And I did it. I packed up and I left. Left where? Michigan. I was living in Michigan at the time. And I came to Florida and I became a counselor.

[Host]

Wow.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

You know, so really. So I guess my skill was my. My life.

[Host]

Your experience.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Experience.

[Host]

Because you got clean years prior. So.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, you know, and that's another thing. You know, here I am now I'm clean. That's when my thought process started changing. So now I'm clean. And I'm trying to work this 12 step program, and I'm hanging out with people that are clean. And I'm still in the street, I'm still committing crimes and, and where things started rubbing me the wrong way. Like things that had never fazed me. Well, now starting to. Like I was starting to develop in spite of myself, really. I was developing a conscience. And I started feeling uncomfortable again in my own skin. And then, you know, like, I hit a bottom with the drugs. Like, I started hitting the bottom with my life, my lifestyle, you know. You know, now I had two kids. I had a little girl. I had a son, a daughter. And, you know, I'm. Now here I am. I'm clean. I'm clean a lot of years. I'm clean like nine or 10 years. And I'm locked up in Attica, which was a violent prison, cockroaches crawling all over the wall, you know, and I'm going like, what the am I doing?

[Host]

Geez.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

You know, and then I got indicted. While I'm in prison, I get indicted in Florida. Oh. You know, and, you know, now it's just. Was it, you know, like it was a crazy way to live and. But I never knew that. And, you know, I never knew that until I got clean and I started working on myself, you know, and then I wrote. I wrote like an autobiography of my life. Of course. You like Stike?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

I don't know if you know anything about the 12 steps.

[Host]

I do.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

All right. So. So, you know, in the fourth step, I had to take a personal inventory of myself. And I wrote that inventory while I was in Attica in a jail cell. Wow. And I. And, and, and I looked at, you know, and, and, you know, I, I just said that I can't do this anymore, you know, and.

[Host]

Damn. Hell of a story, man. That's crazy. Yeah. Because in prison you're surrounded by drugs, but you're sober. So it must have been a weird kind of dynamic, right?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah. You know what, this is what I, you know, this is what, this is what how I felt. Somebody asked me that question in Prison. So now I'm in Attica. I don't know if you know. So now I'm in Attica. I have a federal detainer on me. So they said, they raised my, that my security to high, super high. So now Attica is probably one of the most secured, violent prisons in the New York State system. And now I'm in Attica. But now I have. Now this is how crazy life is. So now I'm. I have my own cell. I have a little 13 inch TV in my cell. I have a box window that in the winter it's like a refrigerator. I have two hot pots. I have a robe. I have some comforts, right? So now, so now someone asked me one day, why don't you know you don't even smoke a joint and everything. I said, listen, why would I smoke a joint? And then they take my urine and I give them a dirty urine and I gonna lose everything in my cell. Is it worth me my tv? It's not worth my tv. It's not worth my hot pot. Because. Because people that have, people that have issues with drugs have to understand that when you cross over the imaginary line into addiction, when you use any substance, there's going to be consequences. And until you re. Until you're not okay with those consequences, you're going to keep using. So my consequence in Attica was if I used. Yeah, I would like to use. I would like to smoke a joint right now. I would like to go smoke a joint today. But if I use then and I gave them a dirty urine, I'm going to lose all this stuff. And that's a consequence I wasn't willing to take.

[Host]

Smart.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah.

[Host]

Damn. You seem really level headed for all the stuff you've been through. Dude, do you, do you have any like PTSD or like.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

I probably do. My. I wasn't there. Well, I think my therapist. I was in therapy because when I first went into the, you know, when I, when I left New York, I had to live under assumed name and everything and I was getting a little jammed up in the head because nobody knew who I was and I needed someone to know who I was. I found a therapist and I told them.

[Host]

Sopranos.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I told her who I was, you know. And yeah, she used to do. So she said I had a lot of trial. I had a trial. I was traumatized. Oh yeah, no, I definitely was. You know, it's not normal things I did. Yeah. So she. We were working on a few things. I don't know if I have ptsd. I mean, I do have some issues. I have issues.

[Host]

Nightmares.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

I have nightmares. Yeah, I have. I have some. I get. Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night and, you know, like, I think about things I did, people I hurt. You know what I mean? Like, I hurt my family. You know, I did bad things. I mean, I. Listen, I was a violent criminal. You know, I did damage to my children. I missed a lot of their lives. I feel some remorse. I feel like I get. I missed a lot. I believed in what I did. I believed in that way of life because that was what's instilled to me. And I didn't take other people into consideration. And I think I gave up a lot for that life. Like, I went to jail. The last time I went to jail, my daughter was three. I got out, she was 11. My son was 13. I got out when he was 21.

[Host]

Wow.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

You know, I gave up so much for that life. And at the end of the day, it wasn't worth it because that life betrayed me.

[Host]

Damn. That's a deep statement, man.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah.

[Host]

Because that was your whole life.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah.

[Host]

That's everything. You knew your father's life.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah.

[Host]

Holy crap. But you didn't feel the remorse in the moment. It was all after.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Didn't even face me. Listen, I got locked up for murdering my brother in law. I picked him up and drove him to a place where he got murdered. Like, I drove him to his death.

[Host]

And you knew?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, I knew. Of course. We planned it for months.

[Host]

Your father planned it, right?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, he okayed it.

[Host]

Wow.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

John Gotti okayed it, you know, and it didn't even phase me.

[Host]

Damn.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Now I think of it now and like, it's horrible. Like, you know, like I, you know, I didn't take my sisters into consideration and take my niece into consideration. Like it was. It was horrible what I did, you know, and now I think of it now and like, how do I, how do I. How do I mend that fence? How do I, you know, how do I, you know, my niece hates me. It's terrible.

[Host]

Wow.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

You know, but back then, you know, the way I. It just. I was just a different person.

[Host]

Yeah. That's crazy. You were so programmed to that life. You didn't even think about how other people would react.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

I. I picked him up by. He was smiling. He got in my car.

[Host]

Oh, he had no idea.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Oh, no, he had no idea.

[Host]

Damn.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, he had no idea.

[Host]

That's crazy.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, that's the mob. But that's. Listen, that's the mob. A father and son planning a murder. That's. That's the mob, you know, And a guy like Joe Molina, Speaking of Joe Molina, like, guys like that and guys that are in the street today, like, they think that's okay. Like I'm wrong for thinking the way I. I'm wrong for thinking that that was wrong.

[Host]

Right.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

I mean, how crazy is. Yeah.

[Host]

You were taught to never snitch, never rat on anyone.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Never, never. You know, that's okay. You know, if someone will. You like Sammy. Sammy talks. Sammy the Bull. He. He. He frames it like really well. Listen, if you choose to be in the life of the mob, his rules, and you have to know it going in, that if you break these rules, you might pay with your life. And the people that I know died, broke the rules, you know, but who are we to judge them? Who are we to decide who lives and who dies? That's. That's my point. Like, who. Who was John Gotti to decide who lives or dies? Who was Fat Andy to decide who lives or dies? But that's the life that they led. That if you break rules, you could die. And the people that died broke the rules.

[Host]

How many people that you were in with survived that?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

I was in with? Oh, I mean, a lot. A couple of my friends were killed. I mean, you know, I know guys that I. You know, my personal friend, my brother's friend was married, and my brother's best friend was murdered. Yeah, I mean, you know a lot of people I know. My friend Greg was married. In the front of his house, my friend Tito was murdered. He killed Jimmy Burke's son. He did. Tito the barber. He was murdered in his barbershop, you know.

[Host]

Wow. Yeah. They're either locked up or dead. I think Michael said only one guy on that top 75 money list is still alive. Other than him.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah.

[Host]

Crazy.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Especially his family. His family was one of the most violent families. They were killing each other. They had more wars than I could.

[Host]

Yeah, I wonder why that's weird.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

It just was all internal. I don't know, all over, you know, ego, you know, who wanted to be the boss, who wanted, you know. Listen, the mob runs on greed and ego.

[Host]

Yeah, you were probably dealing with a lot of that, right?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

All the time.

[Host]

Especially the way you grew up under the boss.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Greedy going, self centeredness.

[Host]

You seem like a really changed guy now, though.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

I am. You know, it's funny because an FBI agent once told me that me, you and your father are sociopaths. And I didn't know what he Meant, Wait, I, I, I said, what, the social pet? He said, no, not a psychopath. You're. You and your father are sociopaths. And then I looked it up, and I said, damn, he's right. I was a sociopath. But not now. I mean, I still have a couple of the traits left I'm working on. Like, those are my character defects. Yeah. But, you know, I could never live that life. I'm definitely not the same person, you know, Without a doubt. You know, like, I look at my son, I could never do the things with my son that my father do with me, you know? Definitely. Yeah. Not the same person.

[Host]

When did you know the FBI was on you? Did they call you or someone beforehand.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Before the arrest for the last time for the murder?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No. So what happened was I had to go. My. I had to go to a wedding that night.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

So I lived out in Long island in Comac. And I had to drive to Queens to pick up my son. So I drove to Queens, and he wasn't home yet. So there's a park bench in front of his house. And it's funny, so I go sit on the bench. It's a nice June day out, sun shining. And I. And I'm laying on the bench with my eyes closed. Like, my eyes back on this. And all of a sudden I hear, don't move, you. And I open up my eyes, and there's a gun right in my nose.

[Host]

Holy.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

And I look, right? And then the next thing I knew, it's someone who was behind me. And they literally lifted me up off the bench and they handcuffed me. And it was about eight of them.

[Host]

Damn.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

I didn't even hear them. They were like Indians. I didn't hear. I didn't hear nothing. I didn't hear a footstep. I heard nothing. And the next thing I knew, they threw me in a van, and they were screaming at me, we got you now, you murderer. You're going to spend the rest of your life in prison. And. And that was it. My whole life flashed in front of my face at that point because I'm in this van and the guys are screaming at me. I'm handcuffed, and I'm. Oh, my God. And they took me, and then I got out on bail, and then they put. They put me on house arrest. And then about a year later, you know, things happened and I decided to throw in the towel, and I cooperated.

[Host]

Wow. They arrested your dad, too, for that one?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, he was. Passed away.

[Host]

Oh, he passed away.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

He passed away in 99. Yeah, they just arrested me and the shooter, this guy, skinny, Dom Persona. He was a captain in the Gambino family. He was actually the one that. That did the shooting.

[Host]

How did they find out so late, like, what happened?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Other people cooperated that knew about it and led them to us. So. Yeah.

[Host]

Damn. But they had no evidence. It was just their word.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, they had no evidence. There's no physical evidence. No, because the body disappeared. They never found the body. They never had a murder weapon. But they had. They had enough. They had enough to indict us. I mean, they had enough.

[Host]

So just a witness testimony is enough.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah. In the Fed. Yeah. You don't need a body.

[Host]

Damn.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

So you could just pay. Some circumstantial evidence in the federal courts is good.

[Host]

Wow.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah.

[Host]

So that's why you went with the plea route. Because if you. If you went to trial, you would have got.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

I went to. I went to the plea route because my co defendants was sort of like trying to throw me under the bus. Yeah. You know, like I was the last person with him. I picked them up and drove him somewhere and then he disappeared. So I had some conversations with some people and I had some conversations with some attorneys, and the attorney actually told me, listen, you're going to get thrown under the bus here. You should call the government.

[Host]

Damn.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

You know, and. And I didn't. Couldn't do it. You know, I talk about it all the time. I still couldn't do it. The next day, my wife was driving to work and I told her to call them and tell them I couldn't make.

[Host]

That was probably the toughest one for you because you had the family.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

The worst. The worst. I couldn't do it. That haunts me sometimes that I cooperated. But, you know, I think because I cooperated and I changed, you know, I became a counselor. I think. I think I. I'm sort of trying to make up for all the bad I did. I guess you could say, I don't know.

[Host]

Karma, right?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah.

[Host]

Damn, that's deep. Yeah. Because you were programmed your whole life to never ever do that. So that must have been the toughest decision you ever had to make.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

It was terrible. Yeah, it was tough. It took me a year. I used to pick up the phone and hang it up. Holy crap. I would have the FBI card in my hand and I would pick up the phone and I would hang it up.

[Host]

Damn.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

I couldn't do it. I used to get knots in my stomach, sweat. I couldn't do it. And I still Couldn't do it. Even when I did do it, I made my wife do it. I couldn't do it because you knew.

[Host]

You'D lose your whole friend group, everything.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, you know, I was. You know, I. I was giving up everything I knew. And, you know, I had a lot of insecurity because, like I said, I had no skills. But at that point, you know, listen, the mob wasn't the same. There was different people out there, different guys running the show. They took everything. When my father died, they really took everything from us. They weren't looking out for me. And I was done at that point. I was done. Like, I wasn't willing to spend the rest of my life in prison anymore for the mob. I wasn't willing to do it. If my father was alive or his partner Tony Leroy was alive, I would have never cooperated because then I would implement them in a murder, and I would have never done that. You know, but. But the cards fell the way they fell. You know, John Gotti was dead. My old man was dead. Tony Lee was dead. You know, and I was done. I was done. I had, you know, I was done with that whole lifestyle. I was done spending time in prison, and that was it.

[Host]

What happened to Tony?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Tony Lee passed away. He had cancer. He died.

[Host]

Oh, wow.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

He died. He died in 93, before I got arrested. In 95. He died two years before I got arrested.

[Host]

Damn. And that was your dad's right hand man?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, they were partners from childhood.

[Host]

That's cool, man. Not a lot of guys come in together and last the whole way through.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

If they made 10 cents, they got a nickel each.

[Host]

Damn.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah, it was a. It was like a strong enough. It was like a brother bond. It was crazy, the partnership they had. Like, nobody has a partnership like that.

[Host]

I've never seen that in the mob. Maybe Gotti and Sammy.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No guardian. They were never partners.

[Host]

Oh, they weren't?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, they were just. They were. You know, Sammy was the younger Bush. They were probably partners in some things, but not partners and everything.

[Host]

Got it.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

You know, I think. I think probably Angelo Clark at one time was John Gotti's partner. Partner. But other than that, there's not really anybody I knew that had a partnership like Tony Lee and Fat Andy.

[Host]

I mean, that's probably why it was a successful.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Oh, yeah, very. Yeah, they had a big crew. They had a big crew. Yeah. They were partners from when they were teenagers.

[Host]

Yeah. That's crazy. The trust and the loyalty tease each other.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

You were a window breaker before you became my partner.

[Host]

I Love that man. So was your grandfather in the Mafia?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Oh, you know, that's a funny thing. No. Nobody in my family was in the mob except my father.

[Host]

Oh, wow.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

You know, he never had a fault. So my grandfather immigrated from Italy, from Naples, Italy, in like the turn of the century. And my grandmother was a teenager when they got married. My father was the youngest child out of eight. My grandfather, in 1932, got hit by a trolley car.

[Host]

Damn.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

And died. And my father was only six.

[Host]

Holy crap.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

@ the time of my grandfather's death, my father's best friends were. His were this guy Lenny the donor and Larry Abandondo. Larry's father was the dasher. And Lenny's uncle was Happy Maione. They were both members of Murder Incorporated, I'm sure, you know.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Murders Incorporated, they were. They all got the electric chair with Lepke and Sing Sing.

[Host]

Holy crap.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

So they became his father figures, these mob guys, because his friends, family were all mobbed up. The Maonis were all mobbed up. The abandoned those people, all mobbed up. So they became like his father figures. And when he became a teenager, he started working for them, so. So. And he used to tell me he's the way he is because he had no father.

[Host]

Wow, that's deep.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah.

[Host]

Yeah. Because a young kid is so impressionable. Right?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Of course, my uncles, his brothers, all were legitimate guys.

[Host]

Oh, none of them joined my uncle?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, they all worked. My two uncles worked for the transit. One of my uncles, I mean, he made money illegally within the transit. He was shy, lack of money, you know, booking bets. But he was legitimate. They all World War II veterans? My three uncles, wow. Totally all legit. And my mother's family too. All legit.

[Host]

Damn, that is interesting.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Gene. Gene, My cousin Gene, his grandfather, my uncle junior. He was a little. He was legit, but not legit. He. He was a bus driver, but he was a criminal.

[Host]

Dude, Gene is funny, man. Because with his mouth, the fact that he survived with. Because he just says whatever he says.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah. His grandfather was my mother's. His kid brother.

[Host]

Wow.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

So he's my second cousin.

[Host]

Were you, like, mentoring him through the. Through the game?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, you know, I was away. When I went away, he was a kid. When I went away, he was only 12.

[Host]

Wow.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

When I went away in 95, 96, he was 12. He was a year younger than my son. Him and my son are very tight. They grew up together. So when I went away, he was 12. When I came out, eight, nine years later, he. He was in the mob.

[Host]

Like, he was already Made.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

No, he was just running around with the, with the, with the Banana family. And. And so I never really mentored him or anything. I was away them formative years, you know, but when I came out, I ran into him. I always went to get a haircut in Howard beach, and he was in there getting a manicure and everything. And, you know, he paid for my haircut, you know. Yeah, but. Yeah, so I. I missed out on, on that, you know.

[Host]

Wow.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

That education that he got.

[Host]

Did your kid want to join?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Whether he wanted to join or not, I made sure that that was never going to happen. You know what I mean? He grew up. The first 21 years of my son's life, either I was in jail and my father was in jail, or we were both in jail at the same time. The first 21 years of his life, he literally grew up in a prison visiting room. And I made it a point that he was never going to wind up in the shoes I was in, you know, And I used to tell him, I'm not gonna make the same mistakes as, as Grandpa, you know, I always made sure he worked. I always got him jobs. His mother made sure, you know, I mean, he got in trouble, you know, like a kid, you know, normal kid.

[Host]

Trouble, you know, principal's office.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Yeah. You know, stuff like that. I had to bail him out of a few things, you know, I had to bail him out of a couple of genetics, man. Yeah, but, but no, but he's a hard worker. He works now, you know, he. He works, he works. I made sure that.

[Host]

Nice. Yeah, that's important, man. Anthony, it's been cool. What do you got coming up next and where can people find you?

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Well, you can find me on Reform Gangsters on my podcast. They can find me@anthony ruggianojr.com on my website. I got a Patreon page. I'm gonna be August 11th at 10:00 on the History Channel. I'm gonna be on Gangland. That's a show that's coming out. I have a few things going. I'm going to be back out in Arizona with Sammy. I have some mob tours that are really cool on my Patreon page if people want to check them out. And that's it. Reform. Subscribe.

[Host]

We'll link below. Thanks. Come on, man.

[Anthony Ruggiano]

Oh, my pleasure.