Thomas Wilkinson of NeuroNova: The Dopamine Trap No One Warned You About | DSH #1808

Summary

Digital Social Hour: Thomas Wilkinson of NeuroNova – The Dopamine Trap No One Warned You About (DSH #1808)

Date: February 4, 2026
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: Thomas Wilkinson, CEO of NeuroNova

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Sean Kelly sits down with Thomas Wilkinson, founder and CEO of NeuroNova, to discuss the neuroscience behind dopamine, the pitfalls of common pharmaceutical solutions for mental health issues, and the revolutionary NeuroNova chair—a non-invasive device designed to help regulate dopamine production. The conversation is candid, deeply personal, and challenges conventional thinking about mental health, addiction, and what actually works to improve well-being in our technology-saturated era.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins of NeuroNova and the Search for Alternatives

• Personal Motivations & Tragedy:
  • Thomas shares that both he and a neuroscientist collaborator were personally affected by addiction: “...his brother overdosed on methadone.” (01:19)
  • Thomas’s own brother also suffered, making the mission personal.
• “Innovation via Serendipity”:
  • Wilkinson tells the story of how a “penicillin moment” led to the discovery that specific spinal vibrations can dramatically increase dopamine production in rodents—specifically, an 80 hertz frequency:

    “The very first vibration frequency that they tried was 80 hertz. ...had 200% of baseline dopamine, lasted for three hours.” (02:54)

  • Had they missed this frequency, the potential would have gone unnoticed.

2. Human Trials & the NeuroNova Chair

• Clinical Outcomes:
  • NIH-funded trials demonstrated striking results:

    “We saw a 60% decrease in generalized anxiety versus placebo.” (03:24)

• How It Feels:
  • The chair delivers a pleasant spine vibration:

    “It just feels like a gentle vibration going up your spine like a tuning fork. It's just really pleasant.” (04:02)

• Cost and Accessibility:
  • The initial price was $15,000, now reduced to $6,000, with a new model allowing monthly subscriptions at $200–$250:

    “Now so it's just $6,000 to get one at your home... or you can subscribe to have it in your home for $250 a month.” (08:14)

3. Critique of Modern Mental Health Treatments

• Problems with Medication:
  • Both Sean and Thomas share harrowing personal experiences with benzodiazepines (like Xanax) and Adderall:

    “When I ran out though, like I had a seizure and it was really tough to get off that shit.” (06:00)

  • Thomas criticizes overprescription, especially in children:

    “We're micro dosing meth to adolescent kids on the first visit... You've created an addict for life.” (05:20)

• Desire for Effective Alternatives:
  • Thomas’s own experience:

    “With this, I tried. And after two days I was off... It's been two and a half years.” (04:45)

4. The Science of Vibration-Induced Dopamine

• Mechanism:
  • The chair uses two combined waveforms (25 Hz and 25.5 Hz) to create the optimal 80 Hz spinal vibration:

    “...those two waveforms combine in your spine and a third wave is, is formed. And that's the 80 hertz wave...” (12:01)

• Real-Life Impact & Testimonials:
  • Thomas shares a powerful story:

    “A kid in Southern Utah was having suicide ideation... after one session... I don't want to kill myself anymore.” (09:28)

• Sleep Benefits:
  • Users report significant improvements in deep sleep—a key factor in staving off cognitive decline:

    “...deep sleep is the number one contributor to cognitive decline. ...[we're] reversing that... she's now averaging over an hour of sleep.” (11:02)

  • Thomas’s routine includes sessions both morning and night for positive habit formation and sleep quality:

    “Used to take me an hour and a half to fall asleep, ...17 minutes to fall asleep now.” (13:23)

5. The Modern Dopamine Deficit & Technology

• Dopamine Addiction in the Digital Age:
  • Thomas references the book The Anxious Generation, discussing the danger of digital-era dopamine triggers:

    “The human brain was not designed to get thousands of alerts... we're addicted to an artificial source of dopamine...” (14:05)

• How NeuroNova Differs:
  • Emphasizes that natural, physiological dopamine production doesn’t cause the depletion cycle like artificial dopamine spikes from drugs or social media:

    “After 10 sessions, you're getting a stacking effect... climb out of a dopamine deficit...” (14:46)
    “With this, you get the increase in dopamine each time. You're climbing out of that and you're getting back to normal and healthy.” (16:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Moment of Discovery:

“It was like a penicillin moment.... The very first vibration frequency that they tried was 80 hertz... 200% of baseline dopamine.”
– Thomas Wilkinson (02:37)

On Medication Culture:

“We are micro dosing meth to adolescent kids on the first visit... You've created an addict for life. There has to be an alternative to that.”
– Thomas Wilkinson (05:20)

On Impactful Results:

“A kid ... was having suicide ideation... after one session, comes back and says, 'I don't want to kill myself anymore.'”
– Thomas Wilkinson (09:28)

On Daily Use and Sleep:

“I use it in the morning and at night. ...used to take me an hour and a half to fall asleep... 17 minutes to fall asleep now.”
– Thomas Wilkinson (12:50, 13:23)

On Dopamine in Modern Life:

“The human brain was not designed to get thousands of alerts and notifications a day. That has really damaged our brains.”
– Thomas Wilkinson (14:05)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:51 – Origins of NeuroNova & Personal Motivations
• 02:20 – The “Penicillin” Moment, Discovery of 80 Hz Effect
• 03:24 – Human Trials, 60% Reduction in Anxiety
• 04:45 – Thomas’s Personal Journey Off Medication
• 05:20 – Sharp Critique of Prescribing to Young People
• 08:14 – Pricing & Subscription Model Explained
• 09:28 – Suicide Ideation Testimonial
• 11:02 – Deep Sleep Benefits
• 12:01 – How the Chair Actually Works (Waveform Science)
• 12:50 – Thomas’s Morning/Night Routine
• 13:23 – Improved Sleep Timing, Reducing Dependency on Drugs
• 14:05 – Digital Dopamine Addiction
• 14:46 – Clarifying: Natural vs. Artificial Dopamine and Resetting Baseline

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Overall Tone & Final Takeaways

Sean Kelly brings his signature curiosity and relatability, sharing his own struggles to connect with Thomas’s experiences. The tone is frank but optimistic, focused on hope and practical solutions for a world saturated with chemical quick-fixes and technological distractions. Thomas Wilkinson’s passion for changing mental health treatment comes through clearly, reinforced by data and moving anecdotes about restored lives. NeuroNova’s chair is presented not just as another wellness gadget, but as a potential paradigm shift for managing anxiety, addiction, sleep, and daily well-being without drugs.

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For more details, testimonials, or to inquire about the chair, Thomas invites listeners to reach out through their website or social channels.

Transcript

[Host]

I mean, everything happens for a reason. But, like, well, that's.

[Thomas]

That's our mission, man. We want to be able to help people in that same situation and be able to not have to be dependent on those. On those sorts of things. Yeah, but how I feel because. So when I used to take my benzo, which I think it was Xanax, it was. If I was like, having a panic attack, and it was like a rescue one for me, and, you know, thoughts racing and just all the things. And so I take his ax, and then the whole next day is worthless because it was just the side effects and all that stuff, so.

[Host]

All right, guys, we got Thomas here from Neura Nova. It's a revolutionary chair, to say the least.

[Thomas]

It is.

[Host]

We'll have one in like, 10 minutes. We'll do a demo. But in the meantime, nice to meet you, man.

[Thomas]

Happy to be here.

[Host]

What's. What's the story with this company?

[Thomas]

Well, so actually, it was 10 years ago. This is kind of where this all started. What we were looking for was an alternative to methadone or benzodiazepines and Adderall. And there was a neuroscientist at the university nearby where I live in Utah, and he had a brother go through addiction recovery. And some of you guys might know this, but if you go through an addiction recovery process, your dopamine levels in your brain plummet, and it's dangerous and really painful. And so a lot of times you're given methadone to come off of those withdrawals. What happens is, is you can become dependent on methadone as you come off the withdrawals. And his brother overdosed on methadone.

[Host]

Wow. You can OD on it.

[Thomas]

You can. Yeah. And coincidentally, that same thing happened to my brother. So obviously this is something that was, like, really important to me when I got involved with it. And turns out this neuroscientist was smart enough and he's just like, dude, my whole life mission now is to find an alternative to this. Like, how do we help people produce dopamine in a non invasive and non pharmacological way? And, you know, it was a slow roll for a long time. It, you know, thousands of experiments on rodents, and they, you know, dead end after dead end, and it was like a penicillin moment. I don't know if you know how penicillin was discovered, but I actually don't. Okay, so it was one of the. The scientists in the lab working on the project brought his sandwich that had mold on it. The mold got into the petri dish. It was just his lunch gets in the petri dish and they notice it started killing the bacteria.

[Host]

What?

[Thomas]

And. And that's how penicillin was discovered.

[Host]

Wow.

[Thomas]

So similar to that, a group of these neuroscientists were trying all these different experiments on rats. And one of the guys is like, hey, you know, why don't we try vibration? We know that these. There's these nerve endings in the spine called mechanoreceptors that are sensitive to mechanical stimulation. Let's just try it. And all the other guys just laughed at him. Like, dude, that's not gonna work. Like, you kidding me? Vibration. That's strange. That's weird. Um, but they just went for it. And the very first vibration frequency that they tried was 80 hertz. And they cut the rat's brain open. They looked at it, had 200% of baseline dopamine, lasted for three hours.

[Host]

Wow.

[Thomas]

What's crazier is, had they tried any other frequency, they could have tried 100 in a row. And it wasn't 80 hertz. It would have done nothing. And they would have thought it was another dead end. So really, really cool how they discovered this. And then in 2019, they published their first paper and the NIH picked it up and we got grant funding to do our human trials. And of course, human trials were amazing. We saw a 60% decrease in generalized anxiety versus placebo. And when coming off of opiate withdrawals and. And then kind of the rest is history.

[Host]

That's crazy. That's so crazy. What a good alternative, too. You don't gotta swallow anything toxic or.

[Thomas]

Yeah.

[Host]

Shoot yourself with a needle. Yep. You know, you could just sit in a chair for 10 minutes a day.

[Thomas]

Yeah. It's just a 10, 10 minute session every day. I do it every day. And in our trials, we saw 60 decrease after just 10 sessions.

[Host]

Okay.

[Thomas]

Which is incredible. But there's benefits to using it every single day. Day.

[Host]

And you're just being vibrated while you sit.

[Thomas]

Yeah. It just feels like a gentle vibration going up your spine like a tuning fork. It's just really pleasant.

[Host]

It's almost like too good to be true just hearing you say it.

[Thomas]

Well, dude, how I experience it. And. And, you know, I don't know if this is too personal, but I just had a rough childhood. That's kind of why my brother got into drugs. I dealt with intense anxiety for a long time.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Thomas]

And of course, my therapist was. Was like, okay, dude, I know you're struggling. We're just gonna get you on adderall and benzos and Klonopin and got you dialed all at once? Yeah. And I was like, I'm 20 something and just in a lot of pain. Okay, I'll try this. I try to get off that at least a dozen times. Can't do it.

[Host]

Damn.

[Thomas]

With this, I tried. And after two days I was off in no way. Two days. It's been two and a half years, so I. Great experience for me. And I should caveat to that. You know, I'm the CEO of the company, so maybe I can't share that particular story, but really, really cool. And that's, that's how I got involved with, with the technology.

[Host]

That's awesome. And I was on Xanax for a few months and then I didn't really know about withdrawal. They don't tell you that when they give you it. No, you know what I mean? They just give it to you like it's candy.

[Thomas]

Yeah.

[Sponsor Representative]

Actually the same day I met the.

[Host]

Doctor, I got Xanax. That's how easy it was.

[Thomas]

No questions.

[Host]

Yeah, no questions.

[Thomas]

Think about Adderall too. That, that's one thing I want to talk about is just like, it is insane. Literally. We are, we're micro dosing meth to adolescent kids on the first visit. Oh, he has add. Okay. We're going to give him Adderall. You've created an addict for life. There has to be an alternative to that. And, and, and we've seen really great results with people becoming more focused and able to, to cope with their. The symptoms of ADHD by using.

[Host]

I bet, I bet. Man, one out of two teenagers is diagnosed with a mental health condition these days. Isn't that crazy?

[Thomas]

It's. It's wild.

[Host]

And like you said, they're going to be on medication for a long time.

[Thomas]

Yeah.

[Host]

When that happens.

[Thomas]

Yep.

[Host]

Because they just get Adderall. They get. For me, it was Xanax. And back to my story. Like, I almost died because the withdrawal was crazy. So. Yeah, when I ran out though, like I had a seizure and it was really tough to get off that shit.

[Thomas]

It's terrible.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Thomas]

I'm so sorry you went through that.

[Host]

I mean, everything happens for a reason.

[Sponsor Representative]

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[Thomas]

We want to be able to help people in that same situation and be able to not have to be dependent on those, on those sorts of things. But how I feel because. So when I used to take my benzo, which I think it was Xanax, it was if I was like having a panic attack and it was like a rescue one for me and you know, thoughts racing and just all the things and so I take. And then the whole next day's worthless because it was just the side effects and all that stuff. So when I sat on the chair for the first time, this was my experience. About five minutes in I got felt like a cool sensation in my brain and just calm, similar to like what I would feel after taking the Xanax. But I just, but I didn't have all the side effects and I was like this is incredible.

[Host]

I'm going to film the next episode in one of those.

[Sponsor Representative]

Yeah.

[Host]

That's crazy. Yeah, that's so nuts man. I can't wait to try it out. How much is it?

[Thomas]

So we, so when we got started we production was really low and demand was very high so we were selling them for 15,000. Wow. We've gotten production up now, now so it's, it's just 6,000 to, to get one at your home. But also we've, we created an amazing model where you can subscribe to have it in your home for 250amonth.

[Host]

Okay.

[Thomas]

Yeah, if you subscribe for a year it's just 200amonth. And then, but if it's month to month it's 250 and just go to our website and scan it, we'll ship it to you and then ship it back. It's, it's really easy.

[Host]

That's great. That's pretty manageable.

[Thomas]

I feel like, yeah, anybody can afford it. And, and by the way, when we talk about Value. Just as a. There was a family in Arizona recently, just got one. Three kids. Anxiety, husband anxiety. All four of them can use it every single day for 250 is an incredible amount of time.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Thomas]

Like 50 each, basically. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Host]

Wow. I'm sure you're getting some amazing testimonials these days, too.

[Thomas]

It's. Yeah. Every day.

[Host]

That must feel amazing. That's one of my favorite parts about the.

[Thomas]

As a founder. Like, so I. I was in venture capital before this and still have my own fund, and we invest a lot of tech things, which is great. And you always are trying to solve a big problem. Um, this is my favorite company. And it's not even close because of all the people that, like, are texting us, having their lives changed. Like, you know, a kid in. In Southern Utah was having suicide ideation. His provider said, hey, this is brand new. You should try this. He does after one session, comes back and says, I. I don't know what that was, but I don't want to kill myself anymore.

[Host]

After one session.

[Thomas]

After one session, it does a total, like, neurological reset. Reset. And it allows you to kind of take a step back because when. When you're in a heightened, like, emotional distress, your dopamine levels are so low and you just don't have any clarity. If you can get that up and just help somebody calm down, the clarity comes back and you can, you know, make better decisions.

[Host]

That's awesome. Any studies on stress yet? This helping with stress?

[Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah. And that. That was linked to the anxiety. So 60 decreases.

[Host]

Oh, got it.

[Thomas]

If you relate that distress.

[Host]

Okay.

[Sponsor Representative]

Yeah.

[Host]

Because they're very similar, Right?

[Thomas]

Yeah.

[Host]

I feel like they're pretty. Like you can intermingle them.

[Thomas]

That's right. That's right.

[Host]

Yeah. Because you can't be anxious without some stress on your body.

[Thomas]

Yeah.

[Host]

Damn. That's not. 60 is pretty crazy.

[Thomas]

Yeah. And so, you know, dopamine's evolved in a lot of things. You know, there's addiction, anxiety, ocd, ptsd, pain, insomnia, and Parkinson's. And so. So the opportunities for this are really exciting. We're seeing a lot of testimonials on sleep that are pretty impressive, like people doubling their deep sleep. We had a gal in Salt Lake City was getting about 30 minutes of deep sleep a night. She's now averaging over an hour of sleep. And why that's important, people believe that deep sleep is the number one contributor to cognitive decline. If you're not getting enough, like, that's a number one contributor to Alzheimer's or Dementia. And that's because that's the time during your sleep where your brain is washing itself of toxins.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Thomas]

And as you get older, naturally you're getting less and less deep sleep. We're reversing that. We're, we're seeing that happen. People are measuring with their aura rings. So cool.

[Host]

That's incredible. I have a whoop at home. So I'll actually test.

[Thomas]

Yeah, you should. And, and again, not if you're not getting enough sleep. That's also going to contribute to your anxiety. Right. So if you can get that figured out, there's. Yeah. So many benefits.

[Host]

Well, we got a chair here now, so let's, let's test the thing out.

[Thomas]

Want to. Let's do it.

[Sponsor Representative]

Yeah.

[Host]

Could you explain what's going on here?

[Thomas]

Okay. Yeah. So actually we didn't get into that, did we? So 80 hertz is very, very fast. It's 80 times a second. Very, very difficult to get that deep enough in the spine to get to the nerve ending.

[Host]

So should I sit on it?

[Thomas]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Host]

So let's move that into the frame. Okay.

[Thomas]

Cool. So what you're actually getting is 25 hertz on one side and 25, five and a half. Those two waveforms combine in your spine and a third wave is, is formed. And that's the eight, the 80 hert wave that's embedded within those two ways. So picture kind of like on a lake, two boats, wakes hit each other. A third wave is, is formed. That's kind of what's happening. And you can feel it pulsating up and down.

[Host]

Yeah, I definitely feel it.

[Thomas]

Yeah.

[Host]

It doesn't feel like it hurts. Like it feels pretty chill.

[Thomas]

Yeah, it's super chill.

[Host]

Yeah. This is super laid back for the results. I just think it's a no brainer, personally.

[Thomas]

100%.

[Sponsor Representative]

Yeah. I don't hear it.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sponsor Representative]

Wow.

[Host]

You just turn it on and off as soon as.

[Thomas]

Yeah. And this goes for 10 minutes. Okay. So what, what's really important? Dopamine. Context dependent. Right. And so I use it in the morning and at night. 10 minutes.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Thomas]

And right after I'm doing gratitude, I'm doing my goal setting for the day and then I go and do my workout because I want to cement those, those habits. Right. And dopamine is the chemical that helps you cement and change behaviors. And then right before bed I do it and then I do my gratitude for the day and I talk about my three wins I had that day and the three wins I'm going to have the next day. So I'm prepped and ready to go for the next day. And what we're seeing people do is, you know, again, there's. Their deep sleep's getting better. Also, they're falling asleep much faster. Used to take me an hour and a half to fall asleep. I'd ruminate, I'd roll around 17 minutes to fall asleep.

[Host]

Now, dude, hour and a half is nuts. That's like borderline insomnia. I feel like.

[Thomas]

Yeah, it was rough. It was rough, dude. And. And then to. To counteract that, I was like, okay, I got to take a benzo now, right?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Thomas]

And that's horrible.

[Host]

I used to have to sleep either with Xanax or weed.

[Thomas]

Okay. Yeah. And. And we're seeing, you know, the. The drawbacks to. To that. Right. And so this is a. Messes up your sleep. It does.

[Host]

You don't actually get deep sleep.

[Sponsor Representative]

Nope.

[Host]

Yeah. Whenever I went to bed high, I didn't remember a single dream.

[Thomas]

Yep.

[Host]

You know, it was just like nothing happened. Like, my body didn't even recover.

[Thomas]

Yeah. And that compounds over time.

[Host]

Yeah. So do you feel like there's a dopamine addiction right now with, like, technology and social media?

[Thomas]

Yeah, absolutely. If you guys have read the book the Anxious Generation, and that. That I believe is, like, contributed to the majority of the mental health crisis is the addiction that we have to our devices to our phones. Like, the. The human brain was not designed to get thousands of alerts and notifications a day. That has really damaged our brains. And so then we. We're addicted to an artificial source of dopamine, and that's linked to. To bad behaviors where you're comparing yourself to other people and all those things. What we're getting, what we're seeing in our studies with our chair, because there's a misconception, is like, wait, I think I have too much dopamine. Do I? Do I want more? That's not the debate. You're getting a physiological release of dopamine. So that means after. After 10 sessions, you're getting a stacking effect. And we're able to have people climb out of a dopamine deficit when you're getting an artificial, like, outside source of dopamine, whether it's pornography, whether it's social media, whether it's drugs, you need actually more of the same substance to get the same level of dopamine each time you try it. Right.

[Host]

Holy crap.

[Co-host]

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[Thomas]

You use it, then you get the dopamine drop and you're under baseline. You're not in homeostasis with this. You get the increase in dopamine each time. You're climbing out of that and you're getting back to normal and healthy. Yeah.

[Host]

So that's why I use it at night too, to kind of get back. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[Thomas]

Yeah.

[Host]

I don't want to get off this thing, man.

[Thomas]

No, that's sweet. Sweet.

[Host]

This is so easy. I could easily just. You can go on your phone. Like this is a no brainer. Yeah, I love it. You got to get these in, in retail locations too.

[Thomas]

Yeah, we, so we're working on all that. You know, my, my personal goal, my mission is that everybody can have one in their home. And, you know, we can, we can help the human race kind of get off of, you know, some of the, you know, habits that are causing us to have a lot of mental health issues.

[Host]

Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't think this is going away.

[Thomas]

No, it's not. No, it's not. And so you have to have a tool that can help you regulate.

[Host]

Yeah. So thanks for doing this, man. We'll do a link in the video with the code.

[Thomas]

Okay. Yeah.

[Host]

Discount and anything else you want to close off with.

[Thomas]

No, that's great. With, you know, reach out to us for any questions and, you know, we just want to help.

[Sponsor Representative]

Awesome.

[Host]

Stay tuned, guys, and check them out. Peace.

[Co-host]

I hope you guys are enjoying the show.

[Sponsor Representative]

Please don't forget to like and subscribe.

[Co-host]

It helps the show a lot with the algorithm.

[Host]

Thank you.