Tim Gray: Are You Getting Healthier… or Just More Obsessed? | DSH #1821

Summary

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Digital Social Hour | Episode #1821

Guest: Tim Gray
Host: Sean Kelly
Title: “Are You Getting Healthier… or Just More Obsessed?”
Date: February 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Sean Kelly sits down with renowned health optimization expert and entrepreneur Tim Gray. The two engage in a candid, wide-ranging discussion about the booming health industry, the dangers of health obsession, the importance of mindset and spirituality, event entrepreneurship, supplement culture, and the real definition of "health." Gray shares insights from his personal journey, event-building experience, and unique views on community, longevity, and living an authentic life. The conversation is sprinkled with memorable stories, bold opinions, and actionable wisdom for anyone seeking a happier, healthier existence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rethinking Longevity and Health Obsession

Timestamp: 00:00–02:48

• Tim Gray opens with pragmatic takes on lifespan goals, drawing from Steve Jobs’ Stanford address:

  “People say, John, live to 150 or 180. No, I don't. I'm happy if I reach 85. Like Steve Jobs said in his Stanford speech... we clear the way out for the new. The new is you.” (00:00)

• Cautions against the drive for extreme longevity: Questions the ecological and philosophical ramifications of everyone living to 180 and advocates embracing the ride, making the world better, and enjoying life.
• Critiques ‘biohacking’ celebrities (e.g., Brian Johnson), noting that optimization can miss the point of truly living:

  “...wanting to drive at 100km an hour, but just grabbing the speedometer and moving it to 100 instead. It's actually doing the work to get there properly.” (01:28)

Notable Quote

“Relationships are one of the best things about life... sleeping next to your partner and everything in between is one of the best things that we all love about life.”
— Tim Gray (02:31)

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2. Supplement Culture: Use, Abuse, and Misconceptions

Timestamp: 02:48–04:47

• Tim reacts to stories of extreme supplement stacks (up to 185 pills a day):

  "For me, I think supplement to supplement is a supplement, not something to ongoing take…when I see someone sticking 30, 40, 50 supplements in their mouth…I think you're a beginner, you just don't get it." (03:09)

• Warns about unintended interactions and stresses on the liver: Emphasizes correcting deficiencies rather than overloading the body.
• Predicts that chasing endless optimization often masks underlying addiction or dissatisfaction, saying successful people often transfer “the need for a new high” into health obsessions.

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3. The Foundational Role of Mindset & Mental Health

Timestamp: 04:47–10:00 (promo content at 10:00)

• Discusses the primacy of conquering the mind and internal noise:

  “Conquering the mind and drowning out the noise…focusing on being the best human you can possibly be. Everything else falls into line.” (05:01)

• Shares story about philosophical inspiration:

  “How would a king behave?…He never reacts like a little baby...always thinks strategically.” (05:28)

• Advocates for letting the body do its work: Anecdotes about resisting quick fixes and allowing for natural self-correction.
• Highlights the direct tie between physical and mental health: Antibiotics and gut health discussed as a clear example—antibiotic use led to profound depression, explained by the impact on specific gut bacteria and neurotransmitter production.

  “40% of the people on this antibiotic came out clinically depressed.” (08:38)

Notable Quote

“Physical health comes from mental health, mental health comes from physical health...unless you're really doing the inner work, the rest...it's not going to matter.”
— Tim Gray (07:07)

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4. Entrepreneurship in the Health Event Space

Timestamp: 11:48–16:15

• Gray details his journey founding the Health Optimization Summit:
  • Year one: Break even; typically events lose money at first.
  • Event entrepreneurship is grueling, with many would-be organizers quitting after the first or second attempt.
  • Branding was key—marketing as “health optimization” versus “biohacking.”

    “Do you want to biohack yourself? …No one knew at that point…Do you want to optimize your health? 94% of people said yes.” (13:54)

  • Rapid growth: Event attendance going from 1,100 in year one to over 4,200 in year five.
• Gray stresses the importance of abundance mindset and community in the industry:

  "Rising Tide. My goal is to leave the world a little bit better than I found it. You can't do that by being too protective of everything." (16:15)

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5. Investing, Influencing, and Product Integrity

Timestamp: 16:42–22:19

• Sean jokes about Tim graduating to the ‘final boss stage’ of influencing by investing and mentoring: Compares to the Paul brothers’ ventures.
• Tim shares an inspiring story of investing in a young Belgian entrepreneur’s skincare product:
  Following a personal endorsement, sales exploded; he bought in as a minority partner, highlighting the satisfaction of helping new founders.

  “It's not about the money…The point is I'm really enjoying doing that…and I feel like that was a plug for the product. It really wasn't. It's more—you know, that this space is growing. Amazing things coming out.” (19:04)

• Discusses how audience trust has shifted:

  “People get bored of being sold to...when it becomes informational and science-based...you can choose it. I don't care if you buy or not. I really don't.” (21:19)

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6. On Longevity, Spirituality, and Real Quality of Life

Timestamp: 22:19–28:29

• Skeptical about biological age tests and extreme lifespan dreams:

   “Everyone living for 100 until 180—what's that going to do to the planet? Like, enjoy the ride, do the best you can...make the world a little bit better than you found it and enjoy the ride.” (23:28)

  • Prefers focusing on “healthspan” (quality) over “lifespan” (quantity).
• Shares insights from conversations with leading biohackers (Ben Greenfield):

  "Spirituality and believing in a higher power is one of the best biohacks you can have...out of all the supplements, out of everything we've ever done." (26:36)

• Argues for community and meaning as core longevity factors:
  Referencing statistics about loneliness drastically shortening lifespan and the importance of social and spiritual community.

Notable Quote

“The one thing that cut life expectancy by 50% was loneliness.”
— Tim Gray (28:11)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Tim on health obsession:

  “Is this actually working for you, or is this just an addiction? ...It becomes an addiction and then they're not actually happy on the inside.” (04:12)

• On supplement overuse:

  “Supplements, to supplement is a supplement, not something to ongoing take.” (03:09)

• On events and competition:

  “Why would I not promote other people's events promoting health? ...Anyone that is too protective and doesn't want to help spread health more, it's like they put money above health.” (16:15)

• On spirituality:

  “A spiritual belief and a higher power is one of the best biohacks you can have.” (26:36)

• On life’s meaning:

  “Are you a good human? Are you having integrity and making the world a bit better?” (27:26)

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Major Timestamps

• 00:00: Tim’s philosophy on longevity & living well
• 01:20: Critique of extreme biohacking and Brian Johnson
• 03:09: Supplement culture and self-correction
• 05:01: Mindset, “how would a king behave?”
• 08:38: Antibiotics, gut health, and depression
• 12:11–13:54: Event entrepreneurship and messaging
• 15:11: Growth stats for Health Optimization Summit
• 16:15: Abundance vs. protectionism in health industry
• 17:45–19:27: Influencer investing and mentorship stories
• 21:19: Trust in podcasting over traditional marketing
• 23:28: Biological age tests vs. quality of life
• 26:36: Spirituality as the ultimate biohack
• 28:11: Loneliness and drastic reductions in lifespan

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Conclusion

Tim Gray urges listeners to embrace balance, prioritize mental and spiritual health, avoid obsessive micromanagement of diet and supplements, and foster real relationships and community. He models leading with abundance and giving back, viewing life as something to be enjoyed and shared—not just optimized.

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Upcoming Events: Health Optimization Summit, London: September 12–13, 2026
Links: [Check out Tim Gray and Health Optimization Summit]

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Transcript

[Tim Gray]

People say, John, live to 150 or 180. No, I don't. I'm happy if I reach 85. I'm really happy if I reach 85. Like Steve Jobs said in his Stanford speech, basically, we clear the way out for the new. The new is you. If we're all living for 100 until 180, what's that going to do to the planet? Enjoy the ride. Do the best you can. Have fun. Be a good human. Make the world a little bit better than you found it. And enjoy the ride.

[Interviewer]

Okay, guys, got Tim Gray here out in Las Vegas for a 4M. He's been crushing it. Just had an amazing van. Thanks for coming, man.

[Tim Gray]

Thanks for having me on.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, long journey for you. So appreciate it. What brings you to the conference?

[Tim Gray]

I just love finding out all the cool stuff that's coming up over the next year. Like a 4M, you know, really do a good job. The best job at curating the best brands. Yeah. And the vendor hall is just, there's nothing else like it on the planet.

[Interviewer]

It's insanity. 700 vendors this year.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

The space is growing like we were talking about. It's really cool to see it.

[Tim Gray]

I think the space is growing 50% every six months right now. In terms of awareness, I think, you know, people like yourself, Gary Brer, and I hate to say it, Brian Johnson, making, making, but making health fashionable and more mainstream and I think it's becoming self fulfilling in the positive.

[Interviewer]

Has he grown on you since his recent studies with the sauna, with the mushrooms? Are you still.

[Tim Gray]

No, I mean, I, I, how do I put it? I respect what he's doing for the world 100%. However, he doesn't seem to really understand health or living in my opinion. Example, he says he has amazing teeth, but he has veneers. He says that his thyroid is on point, but he takes thyroid meds. He says that he has the best nighttime erections, although he takes Cialis. It's almost like wanting to drive at 100km an hour, but just grabbing the speedometer and moving it to 100 instead. It's actually doing the work to get there properly. Yeah. You know, but I think in terms of tracking and telling other humans what's possible, bit like Ben Greenfield has done for, you know, the last 12, 13, 14 years. Showed people what is possible as a human. It's amazing for the world. People like don't want to go that far. It's like we know what we can do. So, you know, I have, I have appreciation for his work. But I just don't think it's necessarily sending the right message for people to be obsessed with their health and you know, saying things like it's better to sleep alone than next to your partner because you'll get a better sleep score when in fact studies and all data show that nervous systems calm down when you have a partner next to you. And actually even though it might be disturbed from time to time, your store, your sleep is more restorative. So I think, you know, that's sending the wrong signal. And let's be honest, relationships are one of the best things about life. When you get it right and sleeping next to your partner and sleeping with your partner and everything in between, you know, is one of the best things that we all love about life. So. Yeah, and just think, you know, I.

[Interviewer]

Agree with most of that. Yeah, I think he just announced he has a girlfriend. So Good, good for you, Brian. His supplement stack is nuts. Dude, I met someone here, he walked up to me and said I'm taking a. He said this proudly, which blew my mind. He's like, I'm taking 185 supplements a day. That's like a lot of bro.

[Tim Gray]

It sounds like Joe Cohen.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that's the most I've heard. That's more than Asprey. That's more than Brian.

[Tim Gray]

So for me, I think supplements to supplement is a supplement, not something to ongoing take. And I think the amount of pressure, stress, it puts the body under taking so many different compounds where you, you just don't know how they're interacting with each other. And a lot of these herbs are more powerful than a lot of medicines, isn't it? That's a crazy thing. So when I see someone sticking 30, 40, 50 supplements in the mouth, in their mouth. I think you're a beginner, you know, like you just don't get it because it should be to steer to the, to the right direction because the body is a self correcting machine. You only have a certain amount of deficiencies that you need to fill and very basic things that you need to make sure you have nutrition wise. But if you're taking all of these compounds, what the hell is it really doing to your liver? Really?

[Interviewer]

For real?

[Tim Gray]

And you know, I think you just have to look at someone to know if they're actually vibrant or not. Just look at them. For instance, I look at you and I think actually you're pretty vibrant, dude.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, my blood work was pretty good. I had a couple of deficiencies, vitamin D3, but nothing, nothing crazy.

[Tim Gray]

You know, and you can see that. And when you see someone you like actually, you know, either had a bit of work done or they're not, or they're looking a bit exhausted or whatever, and, you know, just like, is this actually working for you or is this just an addiction? Because, you know, I find that a lot of very successful people have to have an addiction of some description. It's either their work, it's their health, or drugs or alcohol or whatever it may be. I think a lot of successful people are always chasing for the next best thing, the next better thing. And sometimes that's like, oh, this health. This now, this supplement. And this supplement. I don't want to drop that one now. This supplement. This supplement, it becomes an addiction, and then they're not actually happy on the inside.

[Interviewer]

100. When you view health, because I know you've had a lot of physical health challenges growing up. Like now, when it. Where it's physical, spiritual, like mental, all sorts of different kinds. Like, do you choose to focus on them equally or do you spread it out?

[Tim Gray]

It's a really good question. Really good question. My. I would say conquering the mind and drowning out the noise, to quote Steve Jobs, and focusing on being the best human you can possibly be. Everything else falls into line. I've done a lot of physical stuff. I've had loads of procedures, loads of different things. Even the prostate injections with methylene blue.

[Interviewer]

Wow, you did that?

[Tim Gray]

Yeah, and with Dr. John Lawrence. But, I mean, it was great. I mean, it really meant my partner didn't get cystitis anymore. So obviously I had something going on, which is great. I've done all of these things, but still, the. The most important thing is really, you know, being the. The thing that I've actually learned recently was how would a king behave? Like, if instead of having role models and things that's like, how would a king behave? Well, if you think about king on a chessboard, one piece. He only ever moves one piece. He never reacts. Like a little baby. Yeah. He always thinks strategically. He protects his kingdom. His. His queen can go from corners to corner and react as much as she likes within the kingdom, you know, and how would a king behave? And with this mindset, I found that, you know, if something's thrown at me or there's a problem coming up, I don't react. I stop and think about it. I pause and then, like that then filters down to the rest of my life as well. Okay, do I need to jump at this thing that's going on with my body or do I just need to sit back and relax and let it do its thing? You know, for instance, my, my mum got flu a few weeks ago and so of course my stepdad gives a rvermectin. Get on the ivermectin. Get on the ivermectin. Like guys, let your body do the thing that it's supposed to do. You don't always need to jump in with something like that, just your body is a self correcting machine. So the mindset actually filters down to everything else. But if you're always anxious or stressed or haven't conquered how to be a good human, you're not going to treat yourself well, you're not going to treat yourself properly. So I think the mindset leads everything.

[Interviewer]

It's huge. There's so many studies now on whether it's cancer or disease and they'll study the positive mindset versus the negative and which ones live longer know. Have you seen those? It's really compelling.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, I agree completely and I think, you know, you see like there's a, there's a meme on Instagram I saw once and there's two people sitting in a bus. One's looking that way and the other one's looking that way and one it's a sunny, sunny sky and the other way it's a brick wall and one's like this, one's that and it's like just which perspective you choose to look? Is life happening at me or for me? And I think if you're in that mindset then everything else becomes easier. Yeah. You know, physical health is, comes from mental health, mental health comes from physical health. We know how the mind and the gut are linked together. But the thing is, unless you're really doing the inner work, the rest 100%, it's not going to matter.

[Interviewer]

Agree. When I was in college and the most mentally depressed I've ever been, my physical health was also at its worst. So I think there's a direct link.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah, I mean it is obviously like for instance if I went on some antibiotics a couple of years ago now, azithromycin, and it was for an infection in my tonsil and I was on it for seven days, nearly eight and I had to stop. But I found I was depressed, I was in a hole, I was like on the sofa and I'm like, I'm usually a very positive, very energetic, you know, person, in fact so much so. My brother jokes about it because he's the, I think he's the exact opposite. So he's like, you're always so happy and you know, always so positive and everything. This antibiotics put me on my ass. And when I started researching into it, there's a study of people that were on it and 40% of the people were on this antibiotic came out clinically depressed.

[Interviewer]

Geez.

[Tim Gray]

Right. And when I looked into it, I was like, why is this? What bacteria? Does this, does ithomycin actually work on specific part of a strain of Lactobacillus, which actually is fundamental in the breakdown of tryptophan into 5 HTP. 5 HTP being for serotonin. And so it's actually. So therefore you become depressed or anxious. Wow, whatever. Because of, just because of that. So there are, there is a case where someone's been unlucky and they've had to have antibiotics and then of course it sets them on this track. So what did I do? I did a microbiome test. I looked at the bacteria that I needed optimized, did it as literally as quickly as I could with everything, threw everything at it. And even though it wasn't necessarily comfortable for a while. Yeah. You know, it's so there is the element of mind, body follows. But sometimes the body is leading and you need to jump in and do something.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Those antibiotics are getting handed to kids like they're candy. I was on so many growing up, you know, it's crazy to me. Now I'm allergic to them. I'm literally allergic to penicillin now.

[Tim Gray]

Really?

[Interviewer]

Because they over prescribed it. Yeah. And it up your gut health too. That's the worst part. And now they're learning that the gut is a second brain.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah. Yeah. Or one one in the same directly linked. It's actually mad when you look at, you know, obviously things like people. 5 HTP is fantastic for serotonin as we know. Tryptophan is obviously the one before the. The amino before that. And we know by supplement can't focus.

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[Tim Gray]

Quantumupgradeio 5 HTP, especially for users of, you know, certain compounds like MDMA for instance. It's well known to take 5 HTP following on for it because it just works so well. Or what happens if you're not eating the right food and you haven't got the right bacteria? You're not going to end up with, with the serotonin or as much as, you know, especially if you're in the apartment playing video games in the basement and you're not getting any sunlight as well, you're just going to be screwed. Yeah, so no wonder people are depressed and you know, having more and more antibiotics is doing it making even, even worse.

[Interviewer]

One in two in America of teenagers are getting diagnosed with mental health disorder now. Are you seeing that in the UK too?

[Tim Gray]

No, I mean, to be honest, I keep out of the, I keep out of the press and haven't heard any stats like that. Okay. But I'd imagine we're mini America. Let's be honest with you guys.

[Interviewer]

Follow our lead.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah, we do. It's usually five or six years behind. Same with conferences, same thing with health.

[Interviewer]

Other than your conference.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah, I mean, you know, I Drew inspiration from PaleoFX and Dave Asprey's event.

[Interviewer]

So nice.

[Tim Gray]

I took it to the uk.

[Interviewer]

I want to learn about the growth of that because the event industry is a very tough industry. Not a lot of people can make a profit in events, you know. So was that a pretty immediate thing in the first year, were you able to cash flow?

[Tim Gray]

No. Year one, we broke even. Usually events, typically events go, year one, lose money, Year two, break even, year three, make a little bit, Year four, make more as you refine the model. Although most events seem to start year one, realize the amount of people that come to me and said, tim, I want to do an event in this country. And I'm like, okay, cool. But just let, just let you know it's hard graft, like really hard. Grafton. Know if I knew then what I knew now, I probably wouldn't have done an event. And most people get into it, do year one and just realize it's so white knuckle ride you know, tickets, vendors, all the moving parts and everything in between. So it's a hard graph. So not many people make it past year one, and then sometimes they do year two, realize it's still a hard graft, and then drop out at that point. So I think there's an element of that, but it's indicative of how the health space is going right now. I mean, it's nuts. It's growing, as I say, 50%, probably every six months right now.

[Interviewer]

And did you see that, or would you say there was some luck involved there?

[Tim Gray]

It's a good question. My background's marketing and CRO and UX, and I've had agencies, and I've been D2C from 2002 through 2019. So when I started the summit, you know, I have the mindset of a conversion optimizer in mind in terms of marketing, communication, targeting of the right people, targeting of the brand itself. For instance, we're not a biohacking event. We're health optimization is the goal. And, you know, we did a survey on Oxford street back in 2017, 18 now, and it was, do you want to buy a hack yourself? And less than one person basically said yes. No one knew at that point. And that was 2017, 18. So, you know, nowadays it's a bit different. And I was like, okay, do you want to optimize your health? 94% of people said yes.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Tim Gray]

5% of people said a loved one, and 1% were busy on their lunch breaks. Okay. So it showed me that less than a tenth of a percent versus 99% just from the label. So then I went, okay, health Optimization Optimization Summit. We're going to target health, fitness, medical, wellness, biohacking, paleo, keto, functional medicine, the whole lot, and target to all of those. And that's how the brand was created. So there is partly psychology background from CRO, partly no competition in the uk, drawing inspiration from events that have already done it and learn from their mistakes, and then a bit of luck with, you know, things like, oh, how the health space is growing. You know, for instance, you know, politics to one side. Right. That's not my thing right now. Rfk and what he's doing for America in terms of health is a lot of awareness. Yeah, Brian Johnson is doing a lot of awareness. What Gary Brecker is doing a lot of awareness. You know, like, I mean, these guys are mainstream and it's making Hill fashionable. So the space is growing on top of these things. So it's an. And, and, and, and, and, and a Bit of luck as well. And also, yeah, a lot of energy.

[Interviewer]

You need everything.

[Tim Gray]

Right. And some supplements to keep me.

[Interviewer]

I love that. Yeah, I think. I mean, I don't know if you disclose your attendee numbers publicly, but you are the biggest health optimization conference in the world now.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah. So we did Austin year one, Austin, Texas. We've done London. We had 1100 in year one, 2,185 in year two, 2,500 in year three, 3,000 ish. Year four, four, 200 people, year five, London.

[Interviewer]

Incredible.

[Tim Gray]

So that's the trajectory we've been on. And then I wanted to do America. And Paleo Effects was probably the biggest and best try b vibe event that there was in Austin. And during COVID that went down, unfortunately. So I wanted to revive the tribe, so I brought it to Austin. We did 2600 people year one. Wow. So, you know, we're obviously, we're just about to announce our dates for year two and Austin. Austin and London. So. Yeah, I mean, it's growing very, very well. Yeah, I'm very open about the numbers. I have no problems about.

[Interviewer]

Appreciate that.

[Tim Gray]

No problem with competition. And in fact, I promote their events and speak at them.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. What's the. What's the approach there? Because some people would not do that. But you take a pretty. Embrace a approach, I guess.

[Tim Gray]

Rising Tide. And my goal is to leave the world a little bit better than I found it. And you can't do that by being too protection, you know, too protective of everything. And it's like, actually, I want to be a good human and leave the world a bit better. Why would I not promote other people's events promoting health? And I think anyone that is too protective and doesn't want to help spread health more, it's like they put money above health respect.

[Interviewer]

You're playing the long game out here.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah, it's exactly, exactly it. And I trust that everything will be all right. And I'm having fun. I mean, you know, I've gone from having a marketing agency of promoting other people's stuff, which I was just really not. I got bored with, to running an event, to becoming an influencer, to becoming a podcaster. And now I'm doing angel. Angel investing in brands that need to grow but can't. Uh, you know, recently I've brought Swanwick Blue blocking glasses brand just because it's a OG brand. And it's like, why not? Yeah, you know, three quarters of a million followers, nearly really loyal following. It was like, actually, I think we can really help the World with their sleep. And so there's various other ones I've invested in as well. So it's become very fun. So yeah, it always be all right. It will always be all right.

[Interviewer]

You've reached the final stage of Influencer. You're at the Jake Paul stage. I don't know if you saw. He announced his fund, Anti fund just raised another 30 million. Logan Paul's a partner now. They already got two unicorns. Really crazy. Yeah, that's like the final boss stage of Influencer when you're investing in companies.

[Tim Gray]

I mean, I mean I'm enjoying it as well. There's a brand, there's a brand called Mythos. So there's a 25 year old guy in Belgium reached out to me and said, Tim, can you share this face cream? It's copper peptides micro filtered Tallow niacinamide. This and made in Switzerland. So I was like okay, sure, I'll try it. I tried it. I was like actually it feels really good. So I put a story out and he said, oh my God, I can't believe how many sales. And he told me how many sales he'd done. I was like, that's nuts. From one story. It's like probably my most successful story ever. Wow, must be a coincidence. But whatever. I said yeah, I'll do it again next month for you. And you know I, I have sponsors and promotions and stuff as you know, you know the drill. I was like, I'll do it again for you next month but I can't keep on doing it because it wouldn't be fair to the people that are paying me. But I'm happy to support a 25 year old guy that was, you know, working in a steel factory with this dream of. So anyway I, I did a story again and then it did more the second time, second touch point. So I was like, okay, I'm going to do it one more time and then I want to invest. And now we've scaled it to a multi million euro brand since January 1st and I, I'm a minority shareholder. But now there's a 25 year old, 26 now G incredible multimillionaire within the year. But the product is exceptional and that's for me. I haven't got kids. At 40, nearly 47. It's really rewarding to be mentoring or helping someone to have something that I didn't have at that age.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Tim Gray]

And I think that's really, really, it's not about the money, you know, it will pay off one day for sure. But that's not the point. The point is I'm really enjoying doing that. And everyone's saying how amazing the cream is. And I feel like that was a plug for the product. It really wasn't. It's more. It was more, you know, that this space is growing. Are amazing things coming out. It's not just another product. It's not something I just want to invest in for that. And I guess you probably have a similar type of.

[Interviewer]

I've heard stories of my guests where they'll say they've come on generated like what could be anywhere from 10 to 100,000 plus in sales. I'm like, holy crap. Like, you kind of don't even think about it. You're just having a conversation. Sometimes it really resonates with people.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think for me it was the story about the guy. Gaetan was like, literally like. It's funny because I took him to dinner with Ben Greenfield. Yeah. In Austin at our event and he was just like this across the table. Like afterwards I said to him, what was that? He goes, well, because when I was in the steel factory earning a couple of thousand bucks, still taking your pre.

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[Tim Gray]

I would listen to Ben Greenfield podcast and it's what inspired me to create this product. Wow. So of course there is these drooling walls when Ben's just sitting across the table.

[Interviewer]

That's hilarious.

[Tim Gray]

That was a really rewarding moment for me, actually.

[Interviewer]

Full circle moment.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah, it was.

[Interviewer]

That's so cool. Shout out to him. We'll Include a link to that company. Congrats on that one. Yeah. I know people that have been on Rogan and generated millions overnight. It's crazy what podcasts can do these days.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah. I think, I think people get, people get bored of being sold to or marketing, you know, and let's be honest, marketing evolves. You know, once upon a time, an influencer is a new thing. And an influencer talking about something, you're like, yeah, if he's talking about it must be real. Now it's like, oh, they all get paid for it. So therefore we can't trust what they say and it's on to the next thing. Okay, how. And then it was via sales and then it was this and it was that. And every time consumer ends up going, actually, we know this is just us being sold to, but when it then becomes informational and science based and it's like, actually, well, they're not selling, they're talking about this stuff and you can choose it. I don't care if you buy or not. I really don't. You know, it's like, it's good stuff. It'll work for you.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Tim Gray]

So I think that the podcasting is now, except for, you know, sponsored episodes or whatnot. I think that's slightly different because it's good for brand awareness. I think, you know, people love understanding why stuff works. And typically on a website they talk about, oh, here's our ingredients and here's that. It's like you don't understand. Yeah, exactly. It's not. So I think it, I think marketing is evolving to being more informational and I think podcasts are doing a fantastic job of that. That's.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Tim Gray]

You like if, for instance, when, when Joe Rogan talks about product, like when he talked about Gary Brecker's test, for instance, people know that Joe doesn't care about making commission from these things. They know that he's talking about it because it's the.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Tim Gray]

And so they're like, actually, I want that. Whereas if someone's going, buy this, buy this, buy this, buy this. You're like, so this is what podcasting has done. I think it's fantastic.

[Interviewer]

I agree.

[Tim Gray]

Because you learn about it properly.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I think health products, especially the science backed ones, are doing really well these days.

[Tim Gray]

You know, I mean, you just have to look at the stories of who's being acquired by what.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Tim Gray]

Mark Sisson was one of those. Shout out to Mark Kitchen.

[Interviewer]

He's been on the show.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah, I love Mark. Yeah. Ultimate role model.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. He's He's a go man. Pioneer. Still, still going strong at his age. Shout out to him now he's got the shoe company.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah, he has, yeah.

[Interviewer]

Have you worn those?

[Tim Gray]

Yeah, I have, yeah.

[Interviewer]

I get roasted, but I don't care, dude. They look a little funny, but yeah.

[Tim Gray]

I'm, I'm, I love Mark, really. And for those of you that don't know Mark Sissons, Google Mark Sisson. You see legend. 72 years old and he looks like in his late 50s. Yeah, it's really, really wild.

[Interviewer]

Do you care about that biological age stuff at all those tests that tell you how old you actually are?

[Tim Gray]

Yes and no. So the first thing would be when people say, John, live to 150 or 180. No, I don't. I'm happy if I reach 85. I'm really happy if I reach 85. Wow. You know, like Steve Jobs said in his Stanford speech, which I really recommend everyone listen to, is basically we clear the way out for the, for the new. And it, you know, the new is you. It's like, well, if we're all living for 100 until 180, what's that going to do to the planet? Like, enjoy the ride, do the best you can. Have fun, be a good human, make the world a little bit better than you found it and enjoy the ride. Not, let's just live more longer because it's not necessarily going to be better. Now if you look at Brian Johnson, for instance, having 100 sleep score for three months in a row, is that really living? It's, it's, you know, it's being alive, but it's not necessarily living.

[Interviewer]

I think it was eight months.

[Tim Gray]

Really? Yeah. And it's like, well, you know, so the begs the question is how many years do you want of that or do you want an amazing ride? My family average is 82 and 85 for me is like, I'm just planning on having an amazing journey. Yeah. My grandkids look at me going, he was awesome. That's really, that's really what it comes down to. So, you know, doing these aging tests are great. You know, it tells you, depending which test you do. Like for instance, I like glycan age looking at glycans, obviously, which gives you kind of a metabolic age. I quite like that one because it gives me a score of 21. But whereas my brother, who's six years older than me is in his 70s with his test.

[Interviewer]

Geez.

[Tim Gray]

So there's, you know, I think that comes down to inflammation and you know, Various factors. And the telomere thing is quite nice to look at, but really, no, it's like, how do you feel? Like, how are you operating? Are you happy? Like, are you having a great day? Have you got fantastic relationships? Or are you falling out with everyone? Like. Like, how do you feel? It doesn't matter about the number. Yeah. It's irrelevant. And I think the subjective belief is far more important than just some test with a number on it.

[Interviewer]

That's deep. Yeah. Health span versus lifespan. But. But also, like, how you actually feel.

[Tim Gray]

Like you said to, for instance, you know, like, how many. I remember Ben Pakowski talking about this. I don't know if you know Ben.

[Interviewer]

No.

[Tim Gray]

Muscle Intelligence podcast, professional bodybuilder. And, you know, looked amazing. And he was like, you know, I got to a point of breaking. Like, I looked amazing on the outside. And I was on the inside. Like, here I was broken. Like, absolutely broken on the inside. And I think there's a lot of people even in the health space that appear to be great on the outside, but really on the inside have got some stuff to work through and that was holding them back and making them age faster. So I think it's really, you know, compassion, passion, acceptance, all of the. Yeah. Woo, woo. Things. For instance, when I sat down with Ben Greenfield on stage in London a few months ago at my summit two, I would say, leading biohackers. Yeah. And we both arrived at the same thing, that spirituality and believing in a higher power is one of the best biohacks you can have of all of the tools, out of the technologies, out of all of the supplements, out of everything we've ever done. One of the most important things, spirituality and, you know, belief in a higher power of some description.

[Interviewer]

That's pretty profound coming from you too.

[Tim Gray]

Exactly. And it's like, you know, for this argument before we move on.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Tim Gray]

Atheists think that nothing created everything, which is less probable than something creating everything. So if you think about that for a second, you're thinking that nothing, absolutely nothing, created all of this. I asked Chat GPT a few months ago, said, what's the percentage likelihood that there is a higher power? 99.9999%. That there is. Wow.

[Interviewer]

So it's pretty high.

[Tim Gray]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

That is very interesting. Yeah, that's something. I think the health space is going to gravitate towards the spiritual health side of things rather than just focus on physical.

[Tim Gray]

I mean, the thing is, it also goes deeper than that because it goes, okay, are you a good human? Are you having integrity and making the world a bit better. You know, like, look at the Ten Commandments. And I'm not picking any religion here, by the way. I believe in a higher power. I don't believe in one particular label. It's like, well, actually, you're following all of these rules or guidelines instead of just not having any of them. And I'm like, you're going to be happier. You're going to have community around you. Which community we know, like Gary Brecker said when he was mortality statistician. You know, people when they could predict someone's life length within four weeks of death, four weeks from their insurance, life insurance forms. And the one thing that cut life expectancy by 50 was loneliness.

[Interviewer]

50.

[Tim Gray]

50. Holy 50. So, so the point is, is, you know, going to church or, you know, whichever group you, you want to do, and believing in a higher power and having these guiding principles and having community around you, you know, amazing buy. It's massive.

[Interviewer]

Tim, thanks for your time, man. When's the next event? We'll include a Link.

[Tim Gray]

September. London, 12th and 13th, I think it is.

[Interviewer]

And is there one in Texas too, or just London?

[Tim Gray]

There will be, but we haven't announced that. Space, baby.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, well, stay tuned, guys. Thanks for coming on, man. That was awesome. Yeah, check them out, guys. Check out the conference. See ya.

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