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Digital Social Hour
Tim Miller: Pay-to-Play? Why a President Having His Own Coin Is Next-Level Corruption | DSH #1566
00:47:16
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- [00:00]
A
The idea that we sent people to a foreign country, to a gulag, without due process just has been unbelievably. Was just totally unconscionable. It feels like it's something that you'd expect from a third world country. His whole D list, banana republic, authoritarian, like, wannabe dictator thing, I just don't like the whole show. Really? Dude, I gotta rub your belly to get good stuff from the leader? That's just not America.
- [00:28]
B
Okay, guys, out here in New York City at the Spotify studios, we got Tim, host of the Bulwark podcast.
- [00:33]
A
What's up, Sean? How you doing, man?
- [00:34]
B
I'm good, man. Nice to finally meet. I know we've been chatting for a bit.
- [00:36]
A
Yeah, I've been excited to do it, you know, hash it out a little bit. After the election, I gotta get out of my never Trump bubble and like, you know, see what's going on objectively.
- [00:44]
B
How do you feel about Trump so far, A through F?
- [00:47]
A
I just think he's been a disaster. I mean, I guess I would give him a D minus and there've been a couple of things that have been a little bit better than I expected. But for the most part, I just think the immigration regime, like the idea that we sent people to a foreign country, to a gulag without due process just has been unbelievably. Was just totally unconscionable. I don't think the bill they put through Congress was very good. I don't know that we needed another huge tax cut for rich people. The tariffs have been a nightmare. I guess I'll give him a D minus because we were on track to an F with his initial tariff launch because he backed off that. I think that's allowed the economy to kind of stabilize, but it's not good. It's gotten worse for folks. And, you know, I just like his whole kind of like D list, banana republic, authoritarian, like, wannabe dictator thing. I just don't like the whole show. It feels like, you know, it's something that you'd expect from a third world country. Give you this trophy. I just, I want you to feel like you have a bigger dick than you really do. Like I gotta rub your belly to get good stuff from the leader. Like that's just not America. Like, it feels like, you know, it's something that you'd expect from a third world country and, you know, bullying the universities to pay him and stuff. Like on some of the policy stuff, I'm not a huge DEI guy. Like, I agree with him, but like the Notion that, you know, you gotta pay the President a ransom to avoid the government coming after you. It's just. It's not in the American system, man. So I'm pretty. I think it's been not really great. And I don't know that regular folks have felt like their lives have gotten any better. Unless, you know, if you're like an ICE agent or you're in the prison industry, is doing pretty good. I guess you're in A.I. things are, you know, crypto are a couple sectors. Crypto, yeah. There are a couple of sectors that are doing good, but I think if you're just a regular person, it's working somewhere in the country. You got on board with them. She thought he was going to care about you. The forgotten man, you know, unless you got a lot of money in eth, I don't think you've been doing that well. Yeah.
- [02:43]
B
And that's where being objective comes in handy. Right. Because I can recognize that my life's way better. I'm in crypto. Yeah. ETH is my biggest bag.
- [02:50]
A
Okay. There you go.
- [02:51]
B
You're correct. You can make the argument that Trump played a role in that. But crypto also cycles every four years, so it could have been just good timing. But the average person with these tariffs, with inflation, I can recognize they're dealing with some.
- [03:00]
A
It's helped a little bit. Like, he's done some of the deregulation stuff. Like, look, I had a big kind of VC guy on my show this week, and he's like, look, he's helped some things with. You had Lina Khan that was in there, and you had Gary Gensler, and you had some of these regulators that were going after crypto and going after some of these tech companies, and this government has sort of backed off that. So that's helped. And like, narrowly, in some of those industries, but, like, also simultaneously, you've got crypto scammers like the President himself, like Justin sun, like, these foreign crypto guys, like, paying off the President again, it's like Banana Republic shit. It'd be one thing if it was okay, I'm going to deregulate it a little bit. We're going to go after the bad guys. We're to make sure regular crypto investors, like, you know, can make money. Okay. Like, there's. I'd be okay with that. Like, you know, I think that the Biden administration at sometimes was a little too hostile to crypto. I agree with that. But the, like, the President having his own coin, you know, like, not at all.
- [03:58]
B
I Wasn't a fan of that. And I'm pro crypto.
- [04:00]
A
Yeah. Not at all. Going after people that, you know, are screwing people over that have fake coin. You know, like there's a lot of stuff that he's doing in that world that I don't dig.
- [04:10]
B
I will say I was in D.C. that week, inauguration week, when he launched the coin, and I was hearing some crazy stories of people making stupid dough.
- [04:17]
A
Oh, yeah, well. And we don't even know who's putting money in his pocket again. It's like there were some legitimate criticisms of the Biden administration. People going around Biden crime family like Hunter selling his paintings to people and like that. And I was like, hunter shouldn't be. Hunter's not an artist. He shouldn't be selling paintings. Like, there shouldn't be guys getting access off of the Bidens by paying off Hunter by buying his ugly ass paintings. Like, that's bad. But what the Trump people are doing is on steroids. Just people are throwing 10 million in his coin. Who knows what they are? They could be from Qatar, they could be from one of these foreign countries that's hostile to us. We actually don't even know the scale of the corruption and what kind of deals people are getting on the back end. And that just goes totally against what he was selling people on all the drain, the swamp stuff. It is the most. The scale of corruption right now in the Trump administration is bigger than anything we've seen from, from past, more traditional politicians. And I think that. I don't even think it's a close call.
- [05:16]
B
Wow, what a statement. Yeah, he did campaign on getting rid of the deep state and fixing a lot of issues.
- [05:21]
A
And it's been one of those things where it's like, okay, yeah, so he got rid of some of the corruption from the other side. You know what I mean? Like, they're access guy, you know, people that have access, revolving door type stuff in some of these industries, like treasury, you know, so sure that's happened. But then you just replace it with a whole. With a whole different corrupt regime where people can pay off the family of the president anonymously through a coin. That's. That's nuts, man. Like, that's not. I don't think any. Even if you're pro crypto, even if you're pro Trump, I don't think anybody should be for that.
- [05:53]
B
Yeah, but corruption's on both sides, right? We could agree on that.
- [05:56]
A
Sure, I'm sure there was, like I said, I think what Hunter was doing in br, I watched the interview he did with Andrew Callan.
- [06:01]
B
Yeah, that was a weird interview.
- [06:02]
A
Really weird interview. And a lot of. A lot of folks, like, a lot of even my listeners who are more sympathetic to Biden were liked it and were like, yeah, that was based. I saw that interview, and I was like, dude, this dude seems insane. He's talking about how he earned his role on the board of the Ukrainian oil company. I'm like, are you kidding me? Like, you were an unemployed crackhead. Like, the only reason you had that job was because your dad was the vice president. So nothing wrong with doing. I'm pro drugs. People want to go do drugs, have a good time, that's fine. But don't tell me that you, who have no credentials, no skills, no background in oil, should have been on a Ukrainian natural gas company's board. So, yeah, man, there was corruption, okay? But again, Biden himself was separate from that, like, at some level. And he met with his son and stuff. So I'm sure that there were certain things going on. But, like, to compare that, like Hunter's little, you know, whatever ragtag bullshit that he was doing to literally, the president's kids are running an investment vehicle where people can pay the family off. Like, the kids are going to hostile foreign countries and building hotels and shit in countries that have values that are very conflicting to us, where we might get caught on the wrong side of a conflict in the Middle East. I just. I think the scale of what they're doing is far beyond what we've seen in the past for corruption. And I think that as we learn more and more as things go on, because a lot of this is happening in a black box, I think people are going to be, like, astounded.
- [07:35]
B
Yeah. When you were part of the right, did you see anything to this magnitude at all, any corruption like this?
- [07:40]
A
You know, so I was always a campaign guy. I was never an insider. So, like, folks who don't know. So I worked for, like, the establishment Republicans. I worked for McCain, worked for Romney, kind of on the edges, worked for Jeb. But I always, like, did political campaigns, so I wasn't ever, like, in the White House. I didn't work in the Bush White House, you know, So I just think the corruption inside the White House is different because it's like you have power and you have control. And obviously there was stuff during the Bush administration, we could talk about that, that I disagreed with. The campaign type of corruption is a little bit different, man. It's a little bit more of this whole the candidate goes to this big conference room, big ballroom, bunch of rich guys come in, they throw $20,000. So now they got your phone number and they can call you if you put out a statement about something in their industry. And they're like, hey, will you chill out on whatever natural, whatever it is. So there's like this soft corruption and it's just like typical of all politics, right? Just kind of this insider wheeling and dealing, favor trading type stuff. And you know, that's not great. I don't want to defend it in any way, but it also was pretty like small potatoes. You know, you go back, you're too young to remember this. Like the big scandal of the Bush administration was Jack, this guy named Jack Abramoff who was a lobbyist. And like the, I'm trying to remember this off the top of my head, but essentially it was like the Native Americans paid him to help get them good deals for like casinos and land rights and stuff like this. And like the amount of money that we're talking about is so small compared to the kinds of shit that we're talking about now. And there were limits on campaign contributions. You know, you can only give so much. Now we're in like this whole new era with like super PACs and with, you know, Elon Musk, like Trump's biggest donor was campaigning with him like and then came into the White House and was able to, if he wanted to do stuff that would screw with his competitors. I think Elon ended up kind of getting so red pilled he like just was focused on his own doge thing. But that is crazy. Like again, there's no precedent to that. Like imagine if George Soros was like the deputy president for Obama or like the biggest lefty donor, you know, went in and, and was Biden's chief of staff, right? Like Trump's biggest donor. Guy that put 50 million. What he put in was like, I.
- [09:57]
B
Don'T know, I think it was way.
- [09:58]
A
More than it was like eight, nine figures that he put in, then gets to come in and have influence over policies when his company is now getting money on the back end from the administration. I mean they were, they're like Tesla and SpaceX. They all take, they have huge government contracts, huge conflicts of interest. So like I said, I just think what we're seeing now is just on a totally different scale than past.
- [10:21]
B
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- [10:56]
A
What do you mean?
- [10:56]
B
Like when people are running for congress and they get these donations from these packs.
- [11:00]
A
Yeah.
- [11:00]
B
Like it's a lot of money these days.
- [11:02]
A
Yeah. Well if you go that way like you can do, you can get these super PACs that throw in huge, huge amounts of money on your behalf. And then the Canada, the system is so stupid now. And then the candidates are limited. It's been a while since I've been out of the game. So they up it a little bit every time. But I think that as an individual you can only give the candidates campaign committee now like three grand or something. Maybe it's four grand or whatever. It's small potatoes compared to. Then you have a super pac which is like having an outside group run ads on your behalf and do all this sort of stuff. Like the crypto community did that put in a ton of money and the system is just totally broken. And again this is like the frustrating thing for me, which is I'm sympathetic to some of the stuff that MAGA world says where they talk about how like the system is broken, we need an outsider to go in and fix it, we need somebody to shake it up. But like that's not happening. They're not trying to create any rules to like put limits on the money. You know, that's what John McCain was about. Like there's this McCain Feingold, he did this big thing that was trying to put limits on how much people contribute to campaigns. There are ways we could do things copies from other countries to prevent how, how much people can advertise. But you know, since the Supreme Court basically said money is speech and the Trump administration is kind of happy to have the argument but without fixing it. Like it's, it's fucking Vegas now, man. It's your city, it's casino, it's wild, people can do whatever they want.
- [12:21]
B
It makes you wonder if the most qualified person is winning these days. I would argue not.
- [12:26]
A
Certainly not the most qualified. I mean we're looking at, I mean look at this administration. It's a fucking shit show.
- [12:32]
B
Yeah, but Kamala raised a bit over a billion, too.
- [12:34]
A
Kind of huge amount of money. They didn't have an open process, which they should have in that. In that primary, to get the most qualified person. Also, why would you want to run right now if you were a really qualified person? I think this is another thing that, like, people like to laugh about the Trump, you know, kind of bullying and memeing stuff and all that. But, like, if you want to run as a Republican and you're just. You're an earnest person, it's like, I want less government, I want strong military. Or if you're more MAGA Republican, I want smaller government, but I also want strong borders. Whatever your issues are, you got into it because you care about that, because you've contributed to your community and you want to run as a Republican now. But you think that something Trump did was bad. You didn't like the one big beautiful bill. You thought that it was too much. Why are we giving so much tax cuts to rich people? You think we should have done more tax cuts for working class people, or you thought we should have balanced the budget. You care more about fiscal responsibility and you're like, you know, I like Trump, but I'm just not with him on this. He's busting the debt up. Or I like Trump and I think we should have a strong border, but I don't think that masked thugs should be grabbing people off the streets. If they're here and they're working and they're trying to do their best in this country and they haven't committed any crimes. I'm not for that. I like Trump. But this, if you say that you're out. If you say that you're out, like, Trump just runs. It's just like the inside of the Republican Party right now is just a total cult. Like, you will lose your primary. You can put on one hand who is an exception to this. You got Tom Massie out of Kentucky, who's doing this? Who's doing principled stuff on Epstein and on spending. That's basically it. Who else? Can you think of anybody else? Who else in the Republican Party is saying, I like Trump, but I'm gonna oppose him on this thing that happens in the Democrats. It happens all the time throughout history. Nobody's really doing that right now because you're out. Because the way that the system is now is that Trump's running a MAGA protection racket where, like, you gotta be with him or you're against him. If you're against him, you're tds. You're the enemy. You're never Trumper. Dude. I just don't think that's healthy. That's not a healthy way to do politics. And I think that it's not bringing in good people. Because if you're a guy that wants to run but doesn't wanna just say, yes, sir, Mr. Trump, sir, then why do it? Then? You're just choosing not to do it. I've got friends like this. I've got conservative friends who are like military veterans, business owners, smart guys who call me and are like, I'm thinking about getting in this primary. And I'm like, well, are you ready to say yes, sir, Mr. Trump on everything? And they're like, no, no, I disagree with him on this. That. Or that. And I was like, you can try, but you're gonna lose because the MAGA world's just gonna come down on you. That sucks, man. That's not how this should work.
- [15:11]
B
It's hard to have growth in that sort of environment.
- [15:13]
A
Yeah, it's hard to have good thinking. It's like anything else. Right, man. If nobody's telling you you're making a mistake, then how are you gonna get better? This is true in any business or any organization. You don't want to have a bunch of yes men all around. And just look at the Trump administration. What is the one issue which I mentioned already that people have really pushed back on him on internally in various ways, it was the tariffs. And a lot of times they weren't willing to do it publicly. It was privately. They're going to best sense, and they're like, dude, we're getting crushed on these. You got to tell them to dial it back. And he dialed it back, and it's still too high for me, and I still think it's hurting the economy somewhat. But it went from, like, that month where it was a crisis or a week or two, whatever long it was after a liberation day where the stock market tanked and then Trump backed off a little bit. So that's good. That's how it should work. Right. But you're not seeing that in a lot of these other spaces.
- [16:06]
B
The only space I could probably say I'm seeing it in is Epstein.
- [16:09]
A
Epstein.
- [16:10]
B
That's a big one, right? I feel like the right's pretty divided on that one right now.
- [16:13]
A
Yeah, Epstein. But is he changing on that?
- [16:15]
B
Doesn't seem like it.
- [16:16]
A
And the politicians aren't really. They're scared to talk about Massey, who I can't think anybody else that's been talking on the Republican side has been speaking out about Epstein. Like, people in our world, the commentators.
- [16:26]
B
Are, I would say, like, Fuentes is calling him out, Myron Gaines, people like that.
- [16:30]
A
But look at the. Megyn Kelly's a good example, man. Like, Megan started to call him out at first, and like, she's.
- [16:34]
B
Now you got a call and I'll do it.
- [16:38]
A
Right. Candace Owens, you want people to come on your show. You know, you want to get the vice president on the show. It's good for. That's just kind of the way it works for me.
- [16:49]
B
I'm not worried about losing gas. You can't think that way as a host.
- [16:52]
A
No, I think so.
- [16:53]
B
At least.
- [16:53]
A
Yeah. I don't worry about it. I mean, I never had Biden on my show, even though I was supportive of Biden, because. And I don't know if it was because or I don't know why they never told me why you didn't get.
- [17:03]
B
The White House invite.
- [17:05]
A
I would. I got invited to the Christmas party a couple times. I got invited to a couple things at the White House, even though I said negative things about him, so they weren't that sensitive. But, like, he wasn't on the show. You know, he didn't come on, which, again, is fine. But. Yeah, I just don't. Look, man, if I wanted to be a propagandist, I could just go back to being. I could have just switched teams. I used to be a Republican PR flag. I could have switched and just became a Democrat PR flag if I wanted to be a propagandist. I like having a show where I just could just say what I really think. And I thought Biden was too old. I thought he fucked up Afghanistan. And I think that that gave me credibility with people who listen to the show. Right. And at the same time, I was like, I also think him and certainly Kamala, then where you didn't have the age question, certainly Kamala would have done a way better job than Trump. I still believe that. But I can say that and also talk honestly about what our flaws are, weaknesses are.
- [17:58]
B
And you have on both sides, which I respect, too.
- [18:00]
A
Yeah. I mean, I wish more Republicans would come on. I've asked every Republican senator and House member to come on. They won't do it. There are certain guys. Yeah. Like MAGA world. Folks will fight with me, which is fun. And I got, you know, I've gone back and forth with a lot of those guys. I go to the tp, I Go to the America Fest every year.
- [18:16]
B
Do you film there or do you just go there?
- [18:18]
A
The first year I filmed, and then after that, I thought it kind of gave me more credibility to just kind of go and build relationships and talk and then sometimes, you know, it'll turn into something and then schedule them later. Yeah, we'll interview and schedule them later. Like, I don't know. We have a spin off podcast with just Gen Z guests. I do. With Cam Caskey, who's on your show. Yeah. Great show.
- [18:36]
B
Yeah.
- [18:37]
A
Yeah. And so we've had on, you know, Fannon's minions. We've had one. I had one of Bannon's minions. You know, we had some. We had somebody else on recently. He's like a MAGA influencer. So I just think it's better. I kind of want to hear what they really think. And I feel like if your camera's on, they're not. Sometimes they will, but, like, they won't always be telling me. And I just, you know, I think it's better just to have some beers and try to understand. Yeah, especially for me, because I just, you know, it's a no. For me, it's a no. I don't know, man. I don't know. The whole thing I find a little creepy, honestly.
- [19:07]
B
I mean, you can't deny he's done well at building that cult following dude. Same with Charlie Kirk, unbelievably.
- [19:13]
A
And I say this to Charlie, and I said this after the last America Fest. I forget what. God, I kind of forget. There was something. I wrote an article for the Bulwark about something that happened there that was kind of creepier. Oh, no, it was about Carrie Lake. Confronted me at a party. Carrie, like, really hated me.
- [19:28]
B
Was this last year?
- [19:29]
A
Yeah. Because I did a couple interviews with her that I thought were pretty fair, honestly. And she. She gave as good as she got. She went at. She, like. I'll give her credit. She had a funny line one time where she, like, asked me why I dress like a teenager, you know, if I'm a grown man. Like, you know, she. We went back and forth, and I went at her hard, too, on a few. On things particularly immigration, particularly things that we disagree on. And. Anyway, so I thought it was. I thought it was fine, whatever it was. Journalist and reporter or journalist and politician kind of relationship. Anyway, cameras are off. I'm at a bar at the America Fest thing, and Kari Lake comes out of nowhere. And I don't know whether or not she's been drinking or not. Her eyes were A little glassy, but maybe that just happens. I don't know when you get older. But she comes at me like, you're a piece of shit. You're fake news. Da, da, da, da. Like, you're fucking awful. And so, anyway, weirdly, Laura Loomer de Escalated it. Really?
- [20:25]
B
Out of all people?
- [20:26]
A
Yeah, of all people. She came over and she told Carrie to chill. So, anyway, I wrote an article kind of about how weird, kind of the vibes at the conference were and how I thought it was strange that they were coming at me after they just won, like it should have. You'd expect them to be gracious, Right. It's like, man, we just dominated you last time. But anyway, why are they still so mad at me? So I wrote this article, but as a preface to the article I said about Charlie, I was like, me and Charlie disagree on a lot of this. I think he's even BSing his audience on a lot of things that he doesn't really believe when it comes to defending Trump, particularly on tariffs and some of the traditional conservative stuff. Yep. But I gotta give him credit, man. There's nothing like it on the left.
- [21:03]
B
Not even close.
- [21:04]
A
Nothing like it is even close. The turnout is unbelievable. The organizational skills, the strategy behind it. There's just no choice but to give them props about it.
- [21:12]
B
That's what the left is missing. I think if you guys had something like that, it would have a major impact on it.
- [21:16]
A
I know, it's kind of sad. So I live in New Orleans, so Netroots Nation is this kind of elder millennial, like, TPOs. It was kind of hot back in the early 2000s, but it's still kind of puttering along. They had their big conference this year in New Orleans. It was just, you know, good people, and I've got nothing against any of them, but it's just kind of sad, you know, there's just too much. It's not modern, it's not 2025. Like, Charlie's done a good job of doing the types of things that get young people excited to want to go there. You know, they advance their policy vision, but also fun. People are having a good time, and nobody's. Someone needs to take it on. And that's the thing. Like, these things don't just happen. Like, you need somebody to be, like, have the initiative to say, we're going to do anyway. I've could be like, this is. Yeah, well, this is in my mind now. Like, just because I just. The network string was so sad. I've been starting to message people. I have a daily fucking podcast. I got a full time job. I kind of want to help somebody else. Turn it. Do it.
- [22:10]
B
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- [23:04]
A
Yeah. Who do you like?
- [23:04]
B
I like Adam Mockler. I like Keith Edwards. David Pacman's older, I guess, but he's cool. Yeah. You guys are starting to infiltrate the podcast space, which I think is smart. Finally, finally. You needed that last election, but maybe in 28.
- [23:16]
A
Unbelievable. And I look, I like all the guys you mentioned. The thing that I think that we're missing is folks that are like, pretty generally disposed to left stuff. Maybe they disagree on certain things, but have just more general interest podcasts, you know, that's. You kind of do this like, you know, you have people, you talk about other shit. I watch your clips and. And that's the thing that I'm like, what? You know the left has this for boomers, right? Like it's Stephen Colbert show or, you.
- [23:48]
B
Know, he got canceled now.
- [23:49]
A
But like, whatever. It's. It's those kind of shows. But where is like the Rogan Theo Flagrant, like all that kind of stuff. Those guys aren't politics first and they're talking about politics a little more and more. I kind of like their shows better when they don't talk about politics, to be honest. Theo spelled Louisiana. Boy. I was like, I was like, dial it back a little bit. I was like, you're better on the other shit. I was like, I want to laugh Again, watching your show. But he had on the Rizzler this past week. And I was like, that's your wheelhouse. Stick with the Rizzler theater.
- [24:17]
B
Right after Vance, too.
- [24:18]
A
I was like, we need. That is like the challenge on the left is like, finding somebody to fill that space. All those guys. All those guys you mentioned are good, but I don't know, man. That's still a gap, I think. Yeah.
- [24:29]
B
You still need someone that's like a Rogan. Right. That has on random scientists, then politician the next day.
- [24:34]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So it's more general interest and gives people who are more casual. And that's the thing about Rogan. That's the thing about Theo. All those guys, none of them are like, down the line. I agree with Mr. Trump on everything. Cause that would be a boring show, like, eventually. It's no different than a Charlie Kirk show. That show already exists, you know, and so, like, that's kind of a missing ingredient, I think. I don't know. Sounds like Bill Burr could do it. I think, like, Shane Gillis is kind of secretly that. But he doesn't want to say kind of. That's the vibe, I guess he does.
- [25:04]
B
Make fun of Trump a lot now.
- [25:04]
A
That he's a lot. Yeah. And so I'm like, I kind of. I want to nudge Shane. I was like, will you do. Take this on? You're Shane is the answer. It's not going to be some political guy.
- [25:14]
B
Well, right now is the time to strike on that because there's a lot of infighting on the right. Have you been following the Fuentes vs Tucker vs Candice stuff?
- [25:20]
A
I have, yeah.
- [25:21]
B
Where do you side on that?
- [25:22]
A
Yeah. With Glee, man. Do I have to pick a side?
- [25:26]
B
I guess it's tough.
- [25:27]
A
I kind of enjoy having, like. I like the popcorn part of it. I'll tell you this. I don't. I do not like Nick Fuentes. And I think that his influence on young guys is really. Is really pernicious. Really? I do, man.
- [25:39]
B
Wow.
- [25:40]
A
Man. I don't. When I mentioned earlier that I don't like the DEI stuff. That's true. And here's why. I like. Look, I have a black daughter and I care a lot about representation. I think it's cool. You know, I want people to have an opportunity to talk. I don't like it, though, when it becomes like, race is everything. Because that gets you to a bad place.
- [26:00]
B
Victim mindset.
- [26:01]
A
Talking about race all the time. It gets you into a place. Yeah. Where it's this us versus them thing. It's team. So, like, I don't want to pretend like it doesn't exist. Like, this idea, some people I'm going to write will be like, we should be colorblind. Like, that's bullshit. Nobody's fucking colorblind. Like, you should acknowledge it exists. If people are getting screwed over, you should help them out. I think having a black mermaid movie because they've been all white before is cool with me. I don't like all that's good. But obsessing over it, I think is a problem. The inverse of that is really dangerous. I just think white identity politics stuff that Nick does influences people in a bad way. And I think he does it where he's like, I'm trolling. I'm trolling. It's kind of a joke. But a lot of guys take that seriously, man. And people start saying that, oh, I'm making joking, racist jokes. I'm making joking, racist jokes. Then I start to believe it. I've seen that pipeline happen with young guys. Oh, yeah. Where they're, like, making. Where they think they're just being tongue in cheek and contrarian by, like, you know, whatever, making racist jokes. And the next thing you know, you start to listen to them. You're like, you're really buying your own bullshit there. Like, you really do think this. And so I think Nick's had that effect on people, and I think it's really bad. That said, on the sole question of, like, who is. Who is being authentic and who is grifting, I don't have any reason to believe that Nick is not being authentic. Like, Tucker is fake. Tucker's fake. I mean, has Tucker just. Has he ever explained what happened? Like, did he with his father, you're talking about. No, I meant about his ideological transition. Why did it happen? It's like the old Bible thing about Saul to Damascus. Like, Saul falls off the horse and becomes Paul. Like, did he fall off a fucking horse and hit his head and all of a sudden he changed his mind? You go back and watch old Tucker clips, and it doesn't sound like him at all. Like, he's totally indistinguishable. There's this great old Tucker clip where he's ripping on Bill O'Reilly, talking about how Bill O'Reilly's a fake populist and he acts like he's a man of the people, and eventually people are gonna come for him because nobody likes a fake. And everyone's gonna find out that Bill O'Reilly's really just a rich guy that likes fancy things. And he's just playing a role on tv. And I'm like, that's Tucker. Tucker used to wear fucking bow ties. And he's like the heir to a, like a pot pocket fortune or some shit. And like you said, his dad was a big insider where he's traveling to be on with the contrasts. Like back when he's a kid and he's on MSNBC and he worked for my colleague Bill Kristol at the Weekly Standard. And now it's just. And now he all of a sudden has flipped and all of a sudden it's like, oh, everybody in the deep state is bad, and I'm the only honest one and I care about people. I just don't buy it. I don't know. It's. I mean, who knows? Maybe he had a psychotic break. Maybe he has seen the light and he's like, you know, everything that I thought before was wrong, but I've never really understood his transition. And I think that he sees like, that doing the kind of populist, anti Israel, white nationalist kind of conspiracy, kooky conspiracy stuff, you know? Was Churchill the really, really the bad guy in World War II? Like, I think he thinks. I think that does numbers, and I think that he's going along with it because it does numbers. You can't tell me that Tucker Carlson really thinks that Churchill might have been the bad guy in World War II. Tucker Carlson is a very smart, well read person who was a traditional Republican up to like two minutes ago. So what's the deal? Yeah, so in that sense, I was watching Nick's takedown of him and I was like, dude's got us some points.
- [29:36]
B
Respect that you can watch that objectively even though you don't like him.
- [29:39]
A
Yeah, I don't. I like, I want to know what everybody's saying, man. I like to watch the right stuff. It doesn't do you any good to block it out. What do you get from not hearing what the other people are saying? I don't. I don't. Look, the one I listen to the most is Bannon.
- [29:52]
B
Really?
- [29:52]
A
I listen to Candace kind of, because I think it's funny. I think Candace is totally off the deep end cuckoo stuff. The, like, how many times can you go, show me your dick, Brigitte Macron? Sorry. I'm sorry. I don't. Why is that still doing numbers? I don't know, but I just. Every week it's like, show me your dick, Brigitte Macron. I'm like, I don't think this is really, like a real Serious news outfit. But anyway, she's obsessed with that.
- [30:18]
B
She just announced her legal fund. Did you see that?
- [30:20]
A
People are gonna give her money.
- [30:21]
B
Yeah, she said It'll cost about 5 million to deal with.
- [30:24]
A
Don't give Candace money. Candace fans out there. I know there are a couple Candace fans out there. She's doing fine. She does not need money. She made her bed with this weird obsession she had.
- [30:32]
B
She needs five million, man.
- [30:33]
A
Yeah, she can find it. Anyway, where was I? I know. I like to listen to Bannon because Bannon is not full of shit. Bannon is not full of shit. Me and him disagree. He believes in it. He believes 85% of what he says.
- [30:47]
B
That's higher than most.
- [30:48]
A
He doesn't really think Trump won the 2020 election. Oh, really? No, no. You can tell Bannon does not have a good. Do you ever watch Bannon's show?
- [30:56]
B
I haven't seen his show. I've seen clips.
- [30:58]
A
Okay. Bannon is not a good poker player. Neither am I, by the way. Which is why I wouldn't be good at doing what Tucker does with this, like, totally pretending. Bannon will have. Like, he'll laugh, he'll smile. Like, I. Like. I've interviewed him several times. We've gone back and forth, and whenever we get to the 2020 election stuff, and I start being like, you really think that? You really think that? Like, he starts to chuckle.
- [31:21]
B
He falls in love with him.
- [31:22]
A
Yeah, yeah. He chuckles. He holds the line and his answer, but his face changes. Like, when he's talking about the popular stuff, about immigration, about going after the big banks, about, you know, whatever the other weird hobby horses he has, he gets mad. You know, he gets mad, and he's really intense, intense guy. And then you start asking about some of the silly stuff, and I'm like, you really think that the vaccines were fake? And it's like, you know, he starts to chuckle. He's like, well, Dr. Robert Malone. And I was like, okay, Steve. So I think most of the stuff he says is true. And I think that the critics of the establishment from the right had some points. You know, they had some points I don't like. Look, I was an establishment Republican before I switched sides. I obviously agree that, in retrospect, there were things that the establishment Republicans did that were bad, but there's things not as bad as Trump's doing now. But I think you learn from people. You look back at Iraq, for example. You were a baby when that was happening. I was in college. I was just fucking A, Charlie. I was a Dumb college Republican. I was like, whatever. I wanted to work in politics. We're doing Iraq America flat, you know, hell yeah, America. Back to back World War II champs. We're gonna go fuck em up. Like, I was just, I just got bought into all the jingoistic stuff. I was on board with it. The only people that were against that at the time were like a handful of weird libertarian rightists and like far left left folks. Like I was it. Like there was nobody that was against it. And like they were right. The weirdos were right. You know, the weirdos were right. And so I don't know, does that mean that they are also right about the vaccines being a mind control and like all the, you know, the moon made of cheese and all the other crazy shit that they think? No, they're not, you know, they're wrong a lot. But I don't know, I think it's important to listen to other folks because you don't want to get groupthink. Right.
- [33:12]
B
Get caught in a bubble. Right? Yeah, yeah. Never Trumper.
- [33:15]
A
Yeah, I'm in a never Trumper bubble. I get it, I get it. I mean, well, I would say, you know, it's hard to get. I mean. Well, it's hard. That's why I was saying I have to try. I have to try to make an effort. Yeah, but we gotta never trump a bubble. Cause, man, Trump does a lot of stuff to make our life easy. I could do a show every day about the stupid shit Trump says and does. And I do talk about it a lot.
- [33:35]
B
When I had PAC man on, he basically told me if Trump wins, he's gonna make two to three times the income as when Biden was president.
- [33:42]
A
Oh, before the election.
- [33:43]
B
Yeah, before the election, yeah.
- [33:44]
A
And I would trade. And I say it, I was like, the Trump winning has been great for the Bulwark. We're gonna make more money because of it. It's gonna be good for me financially. I would trade in a second. I would rather the country be doing better and the Bulwark be doing worse. I wish our politics was more boring, man. I wish our. I'm a politics nerd. I think it's kind of weird how many people want to talk to me about what's happening with the HHS secretary. We shouldn't know. Nope. Regular people shouldn't know who the HHS secretary is.
- [34:11]
B
I never did before this.
- [34:12]
A
That's right. It's a bad sign. It's a sign that they're doing things that are too extreme, that are too out there on the edges. And I think that politics, as it should work best, is like two sides, conservative and liberal, working together, making trades, being like, I'll give you a little bit here, I'll give you a little bit there. We'll meet in the middle, and we'll try to make things a little better for people. If we fuck up, we'll change. Like, it should be a job for, like, technocrats and nerds and people that, like, care about the public and care about the government and care about whatever their little specialty issue is. And instead, we have this total clown show. I mean, where it's just like. It's like wrestling, man. It's wrestling or UFC or whatever. Everybody's gotta pick a side. Everybody's gotta pick a team and they put on a jersey. That's just not healthy. Like, it's not healthy. So anyway, that it's good for me and you probably. It's good because people want to know what's happening. It's like watching a car crash. You know, people like, your people are rubbernecking. But I hope it's not like this forever.
- [35:14]
B
I hope not. But I don't know. We're in so deep now. It's hard to see a way out of this. At this point, I feel like Hollywood, I mean, entertainment and politics is just intermingled.
- [35:21]
A
I don't see a way out of it. And especially, man. How old are you?
- [35:24]
B
I'm 28.
- [35:25]
A
28? Yeah. So even young. So even younger than you. It's like, Cam, my co host on FY VOD is 24, and, you know, it's like, you don't even remember before this. Right. 2015 was 10 years ago.
- [35:39]
B
Yeah.
- [35:39]
A
Right. So when Trump starts running was 10 years ago. So if you're in college right now, if you're 21, you're 11. You don't even remember anything before Trump. So, like, you were born into this.
- [35:50]
B
Pretty much.
- [35:50]
A
What's the fucking Batman like? You know, I tried to adapt to this. You were born into it. Everybody's been born into it. And so I think it would warp their brain to figure out how to go back to before. It would feel. It would feel wrong.
- [36:06]
B
I don't even know what that looks like, honestly.
- [36:08]
A
I know. And so then on the left, you have to combat it. And I worry that the thing I don't want is for the left. I do want the left to adapt to the MAGA tactics and figure out how to do what Charlie's doing with TPUSA and figure out Zoran's not Like my cup of tea on the left. But figure out what he's doing on social media and figure out, like, what, you know, how to campaign in a fucking modern way that reaches young people, that talks normally, that doesn't talk in boring politics. I'm for all those changes. What I worry, though is the changes that are coming is like, you know, everybody going after each other, right? You know, and it's just, it's just a zero sum, you know, it's just this. What is it? Race to the bottom, you know, where it's like, I was joking with the VC guy that I had on the pod about. I was like, how can you be for an immigration regime where this administration is grabbing somebody off the street because they wrote an op ed they don't like because they're foreign. I was like, your podcast is what I'm talking. He's one of the all in guys. I was like, chamath, your guy, Chamath. Chamath isn't from here. Chamath is an immigrant. Like, doesn't it. I feel like it should worry those guys that it's like, what happens if the left gets a Trump and they come in and they're like, you know, maybe some of these immigrants that have come in and started advancing these terrible MAGA white nationalist views, maybe I should take away their green card. Maybe I should come after them. Maybe I should have to use these tactics, right? I'm not for that. I'm just saying I worry that that's where we're going, right? Where it's like, where it's just this fucking blood sport and that's not good for anybody, man.
- [37:39]
B
I mean, that's where we're at. They just subpoenaed the Clintons, right, For the Epstein stuff.
- [37:42]
A
Yeah, Subpoena.
- [37:42]
B
Few days ago, you know, never.
- [37:45]
A
And by the way, there's going to be some part of this that's, that's unavoidable. Like there's, you know, can you imagine, let's just say a Democrat wins next time. Can you imagine them going in and then saying, well, we're going to call it truce, you know what I mean? Like, we're going to call it truce. I'm not going to look into any of the immigration stuff that Kristi Noman, Steven Miller did. I'm not going to look into any of these, the crypto, corruption crimes. Like, I just want to move forward and unite the country in Kumbaya. I feel like the left voters would riot over that. Right. And so it would take just some really unbelievable, Magnanimous, talented politician, I think, to take us out of this, because I think for good reason. Folks on the left will feel like, no, man. Look at what they did. They got in there, they started going after people. They started peening Democrats. All right, now we're going to release all the mentions of Trump in the Epstein files. We're going to go after the people that gave money to his shitcoin. We're going to go after Kristi Noem. That seems like where we're headed. If they ever get back in power. They will.
- [38:55]
B
It's just a matter of when. It always flips. Right. But it's just never ending at that point. It's just going to be like, always back and forth.
- [39:01]
A
Somebody's got to break that cycle. Like, where's the incentive to do it? Who's got the incentive to do it? Right.
- [39:06]
B
Elon's trying, but I don't think it's going to work with the new party.
- [39:10]
A
Yeah. And Elon's a terrible vessel for it. He's a foreigner, so he can't be a president. And he's nasty. You know, he goes after his. He loves go. He's a fucking poster man. He loves going after his enemies. Right. I don't. You know, I just. This is my, like, elder millennial nostalgia. I was against Obama because I was a McCain guy. You go back and look at that race and it's just like it's from another world. Obama's whole speech was about, there's no red states, there's no blue states. We're the United States, let's get back together. And McCain had all these people that were trying to push him to call Obama a Muslim and all that. He kept correcting them, being like, no, he's a good man. We just disagree on policy. Who could do that? You just look out at the field and it's like, who could do. And if someone tried that, would people even want it? Yeah. I don't know. I hope so. I would. I don't think so either.
- [40:00]
B
I don't think the average person.
- [40:01]
A
I can hope. I don't want to give up on it, I guess. But I agree with you. I just. As an analyst, I don't think so.
- [40:05]
B
I think Trump changed the scene too much. He made it all about Entertainment. He won 16 by being entertaining.
- [40:10]
A
Yeah.
- [40:11]
B
By winning those debates, quote, unquote.
- [40:12]
A
It was maybe fixable if you would have lost. This was one of my arguments for why we should have beaten him, because I feel like it. There's maybe A chance, a path back had he not won. But now that he's won twice, like, I just think this is our new reality.
- [40:23]
B
Yeah. And we gotta admit, the average voter isn't as educated as they should be.
- [40:27]
A
No. I mean, not about the issues. It's so weird. Voters. But this goes back to the politics is bloodsports stuff, man. Like, people do care about their local stuff.
- [40:37]
B
Yep.
- [40:38]
A
You know, as a. It's so interesting. So we do these focus groups for the Bulwark. We hear from people, and you ask them about, like, their mayor's race or their governor's race or something that's happening in their town. And some people aren't checked out, obviously, but a lot of people you hear from, know and want to have a serious person as their mayor or governor. And that's what you see kind of in red. Some red states have Democrat governors, Some blue states have Republican governors. Because, you know, people know what's happening in their community and they want. They don't want a fucking lunatic. Like, they want somebody that's competent. I want the roads to work. I want the schools to be good. Right. Like that. People get it. But then you start asking about national politics, and they're like, I want somebody that's gonna kill. I want somebody that's gonna go after the fucking bat. I wanna drink the lips tears. I wanna drink the lips tears. Or, like, I wanna drink. I hate Trump so much. And so people just become emotional. Yeah. And so I don't. So the education part is some of it. But, like, I think a bigger part of it is just, like our kind of animal tribal instincts and how. I don't know how to disentangle that.
- [41:41]
B
Part of me is, like, wondering if it's, like, programmed too, in a certain way too. Through the content.
- [41:46]
A
Programmed into our program by.
- [41:48]
B
By the content they're consuming. You know what I mean?
- [41:50]
A
Yeah. Oh, you mean like the algorithms?
- [41:52]
B
Yeah. Like, is it intentionally showing you certain things?
- [41:55]
A
Yeah, for sure. And I. And I think the AI stuff's gonna make this so much worse. This is why I'm really pessimistic. Now we're gonna get into my, like, dark Tim view. But, I mean, I don't. Are people even gonna know what's real and fake? I think back to. So I. Like I said, I live in New Orleans. My buddies. I got all my. I got a couple of buddies, big LSU guys. We go to LSU games. And besides going to Charlie Kirk's thing, my other way that I keep in touch with what's happened in Maga. America is LSU football games coming up. We go to the tailgate and, you know, eventually I start drinking and wanting to start talking about football, but I get out there early and just start asking people about politics stuff, you know, Because I'm just curious. I'm like, it's mostly Republicans. And, man, I used to say this 10 years ago, maybe not 10 years ago, five years ago, people would ask me stuff like they'd see something on Facebook and they'd be like, is it true that Joe Biden didn't put the flag at half mast because a black Panther died? Or, I don't know, some terrorists. We put the flag at half mask because a terrorist died. I'm like, what do you know? What are you even talking about? And so even then, people were in their info bubbles. People have other things to do with their lives. They're seeing the things in their social media and they can't distinguish what's real news from what's propaganda, from what's totally fake, from what's a joke. You'll get tricked by jokes. Chris Cuomo. Did you see Chris Cuomo get fooled by that AOC shit fake the other day?
- [43:18]
B
No.
- [43:18]
A
Chris Cuomo is a fucking news anchor. And there's this fake video of AOC talking about. How was it about. Something was about Epstein. It was like some gag. Oh, Sydney Sweeney. It was a gag, a deep fake where AOC is talking about Sydney Sweeney's jugs or something. And Chris Cuomo is like, shame on you, aoc. And it's like, dude, you think AOC was on the fucking house floor talking about Sydney Sweeney's jugs? How stupid are you? You're a host of a TV show. So the host of a TV show can't tell the difference. How is a regular person gonna tell the difference? And that deep fake was shitty. That was bad. Like, the ones that are coming are gonna be awesome.
- [43:51]
B
Some of them are decent already.
- [43:52]
A
Yeah, man. And so I just think we're get to a place where. Where the algorithms are gonna feed people what they want to hear and they're. And they're gonna start feeding people things they wanna hear. That's fake, that's already happening, but it's gonna happen even more. And so again, that creates this challenge of breaking that cycle even harder, right? And you can't break it with boring stuff, right? People then become attuned, wanting really interest. So that's why zone stuff's pretty good, because it's super engaging, right? But like, this idea that you're going to break It. By being like, we need to get serious and work together. And I've got this white paper that's going to help increase prosperity for people and reinvigorate our pluralism. I'm for. All that stuff would appeal to me, but I just don't see how that breaks through anymore. And the fight, the blood sport, really extreme rhetoric is. It's just what is appealing. And I. And I agree that part of it is. Is what, you know, is what the algorithms are feeding folks. Yeah. You don't think. I don't think any of those guys are planning on trying to turn down the temperature.
- [45:03]
B
They need views, they need money.
- [45:04]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [45:05]
B
They're going to be biased towards dark.
- [45:07]
A
Do you have any uplifting stuff happening? You talk to a lot of people? Anybody?
- [45:11]
B
I just had on someone yesterday that was interesting. His name is Ben Lam.
- [45:13]
A
Okay.
- [45:14]
B
He's bringing back the woolly mammoth.
- [45:16]
A
That's cool.
- [45:16]
B
Have you heard of this guy? Yeah, it's like some straight Jurassic park stuff, but, yeah. He's already brought back a dire wolf.
- [45:23]
A
Is that an affront to God?
- [45:25]
B
Yeah. People are saying he's playing God, so we'll see what happens. He said by 2028, we will have a woolly mammoth walking around this planet. That was at an AI conference. It was a big AI conference in Vegas.
- [45:36]
A
Okay. Yeah, I'm into that.
- [45:38]
B
You like that?
- [45:39]
A
I'm into woolly. I'm into bringing back woolly mammoth. I don't know. Some of the playing God stuff makes me a little uncomfortable. Yeah.
- [45:45]
B
People are editing their kids now. Did you know that?
- [45:47]
A
Yeah. I don't love that.
- [45:49]
B
I get it if it's like, you have a certain disease and you don't want to pass that down, but if you want to control their iq, their height and everything, that's kind of weird to me. Like, I think your baby should turn out how it's supposed to.
- [45:59]
A
Yeah, I'm with you on that. I don't. I don't know. You know, and there are a lot of kids that aren't going to have that chance. Yeah, we adopted. And I'm like, I, like, love that. Like, I liked that, doing that. I thought that was, like, very cool. And my daughter's awesome. I love it, like, this idea that, like, instead we would have created a lab baby. I don't know.
- [46:20]
B
Petri dish baby.
- [46:21]
A
Yeah. I don't know, man. Again, some people can't have these. I don't want to talk down anybody that wants to that did that, but, like, we're going to create a lampy with, like, jeans where, like, I make them because I want her to be in the wnba, so I make her extra tall. I like the whole thing feels.
- [46:34]
B
Yeah, I think they did that with Yao Ming. China was way ahead of their time.
- [46:39]
A
Yeah. Dude, that Wemby is a free.
- [46:40]
B
Oh, Wemby might have been one, too. Well, dude, it's been awesome. Where can people find your pod and keep up with you?
- [46:45]
A
It's great, man. Yeah. Our stuff's on the Bulwark. It's on YouTube. And, you know, we're also popping around all the other social media feeds because you got to do it. It's the only choice. We got to play the game like everybody else. And I appreciate it, man. Absolutely. I'll be interested in the. In the feedback from the Magus. Yeah.
- [47:03]
B
And I'll try to. I'll try to line up some debates for you at America Fest this year.
- [47:06]
A
Oh, man, I love that.
- [47:07]
B
Yeah.
- [47:07]
A
Let's do it, man.
- [47:08]
B
Good to see you. See you guys.
- [47:09]
A
See?
- [47:10]
B
I hope you guys are enjoying the show. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. It helps the show a lot with the algorithm. Thank you.