Unmasking Child Support: A Tech Pro's Legal Battlefield | TJ Tillman DSH #1005

Summary

Digital Social Hour Podcast Episode Summary
Title: Unmasking Child Support: A Tech Pro's Legal Battlefield | TJ Tillman DSH #1005
Host: Sean Kelly
Guest: T.J. Tillman
Release Date: December 23, 2024

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Introduction

In episode #1005 of the Digital Social Hour, host Sean Kelly engages in a profound and enlightening conversation with T.J. Tillman, a tech professional who has navigated the complex and often adversarial landscape of the child support system. This episode delves deep into T.J.'s personal battle against what he describes as systemic fraud within the child support enforcement mechanisms, offering listeners a rare and unfiltered look into the challenges faced by individuals entangled in these legal processes.

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T.J. Tillman's Personal Journey with Child Support

[01:00] T.J. introduces his struggle, highlighting the financial and emotional toll of the child support system. He emphasizes the non-discriminatory nature of child support enforcement, stating, "It doesn't discriminate. No matter whether you're rich, poor, middle class, it does not discriminate." This sets the stage for understanding the pervasive impact of the system across various socioeconomic backgrounds.

[02:04] Reflecting on his unique position, T.J. shares, "I was the first person that I know of who got their case dismissed for fraud." This pivotal moment in 2018 marks the beginning of his quest to expose and challenge the systemic flaws he encountered.

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Legal Battlefield and Systemic Challenges

[04:05] T.J. provides a candid account of representing himself over two years without legal expertise. He explains, "I researched it, typed it up, filed it, everything myself. No legal background." His determination showcases the daunting nature of the legal system and the extensive knowledge required to navigate it successfully.

[05:16] The conversation shifts to the administrative aspects of child support hearings. T.J. reveals, "Child support hearings are not judicial. They're an administrative process," highlighting a critical distinction that underscores his arguments about the lack of due process in these hearings.

[10:52] Addressing financial incentives, T.J. states, "In 2024, $713 million to states to find you guilty in their own state hearing." He explains how these financial incentives drive states to prioritize case closures and guilt findings, often at the expense of fair trials and just outcomes.

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Exposing Fraud and Manipulation

[26:16] T.J. delves deeper into the fraudulent practices he uncovered. He challenges the legitimacy of the child support enforcement process by dissecting legal documents and identifying inconsistencies. For instance, he found that his summons lacked the "seal of the court" and were signed by "deputy clerks" instead of actual judges, rendering them void under Supreme Court rulings like Scamby vs. Tryon.

[29:03] He provides a detailed recount of how his proof of service was falsified, leading to a default judgment against him. By presenting evidence that no one named Michael Tillman existed in his family and that the address used was vacant, T.J. exposed deliberate manipulations aimed at securing wrongful judgments.

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Impact on Personal Life and Financial Well-being

[19:27] T.J. shares the extensive personal repercussions of the child support system. He describes how prolonged legal battles led to license suspensions, bank levies, and even incarceration, which severely impacted his financial stability and personal freedom.

[35:26] The discussion touches on the psychological trauma inflicted by continuous harassment from the child support system. T.J. explains, "I was still scared to put things in my name. It's like, you're not on child support no more. Like you can go and open up a bank account. They're not going to take your money. It's closed."

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Systemic Flaws and Historical Context

[35:30] T.J. provides a historical overview of the child support system, tracing its origins to the 1935 Social Security Act and its evolution in 1975 with the introduction of child support enforcement. He critiques the system's foundation, arguing that enforcing repayment of grants contradicts the original intent of providing aid to needy families.

[38:21] He underscores the financial scale of the system, noting, "In 40 cases, child support can keep up to 66% of that money," revealing the disproportionate financial gains states derive from enforcing child support.

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Calls to Action and Empowerment

[33:16] Recognizing the widespread lack of awareness and resources, T.J. has authored a book titled How I Stopped Child Support Legally. He outlines its structure:

• Chapter One: Definitions – Key legal terms essential for understanding and navigating the system.
• Chapter Two: WTF? – T.J.'s emotional response upon discovering his unwitting entanglement in the child support system.
• Chapter Three: Getting Started – Practical guidance on initiating legal challenges.
• Chapter Four: The Hearing – A detailed walkthrough of the hearing process.
• Chapter Five: Child Support Institutionalized – An exploration of the systemic entrenchment of child support as a punitive measure.

[49:48] T.J. encourages listeners facing similar struggles to access his resources, stating, "Everything is on child support is fraud dot com. There's the book. I do consultations. I do master classes."

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Sean Kelly wraps up the episode by commending T.J. for his resilience and dedication. The conversation not only sheds light on the often opaque and adversarial nature of child support enforcement but also empowers listeners with knowledge and resources to challenge systemic injustices. T.J.'s journey exemplifies the impact of informed advocacy and the importance of questioning entrenched systems to seek equitable outcomes.

For those interested in learning more or seeking guidance, T.J. directs listeners to his website and social media platforms, ensuring that his advocacy extends beyond the podcast to reach and assist those in need.

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Notable Quotes:

• T.J. Tillman [01:00]: "It doesn't discriminate. No matter whether you're rich, poor, middle class, it does not discriminate."

• T.J. Tillman [02:04]: "I was the first person that I know of who got their case dismissed for fraud."

• T.J. Tillman [05:16]: "Child support hearings are not judicial. They're an administrative process."

• T.J. Tillman [10:52]: "In 2024, $713 million to states to find you guilty in their own state hearing."

• T.J. Tillman [19:27]: "I represented myself for two years. No legal background."

• T.J. Tillman [26:16]: "Child support hearings work under presumption. If you do not object, they presume that you agree."

• T.J. Tillman [33:16]: "A lot of people don't know how to go through that process."

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Resources Mentioned:

• Book: How I Stopped Child Support Legally by T.J. Tillman
• Website: childsupportisfraud.com
• Social Media: Instagram and YouTube under the handle "Child Support is Fraud"

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This episode serves as a crucial resource for individuals grappling with the child support system, offering both a personal testament to its challenges and practical guidance for navigating and contesting its mechanisms.

Transcript

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[T.J. Tillman]

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[T.J. Tillman]

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[T.J. Tillman]

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[T.J. Tillman]

2024, $713 million to states to find you guilty in their own state hearing. So based on their performance, the more child support they collect, the more arrears, the more paternity they establish. Based on their performance, they get to tap into that 713 million. And that's just for the fiscal year of 2024.

[Sean Kelly]

All right, guys, T.J. tillman here. Very important story. I got a large male audience here, so thanks for coming on.

[T.J. Tillman]

Man, oh man, thank you for having me.

[Sean Kelly]

Absolutely. Yeah. The child support frauds case, I mean, that set the tone for a lot of people, I feel like.

[T.J. Tillman]

Yeah. I mean, it doesn't discriminate. No matter whether you're rich, poor, middle class, it. It does not discriminate. And we see it all the time on television. They. You see celebrities getting hit, the biggest celebrities with the biggest attorneys. And for some reason they just. Them attorneys just don't. They don't know how to deal with child support.

[Sean Kelly]

I feel like you were the first one to win that case.

[T.J. Tillman]

I mean, I am the only person. Well, not the only now, but I was the first person that I know of who got their case dismissed for fraud. If there is someone who got their case dismissed for fraud, I would love to.

[Sean Kelly]

What year was that when you got that?

[T.J. Tillman]

That was 2018.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow.

[T.J. Tillman]

Yeah.

[Sean Kelly]

Six years ago.

[T.J. Tillman]

Been six years. Yeah. Damn. Yeah.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah. I don't know anyone that's. Everyone I know that's dealt with this has reached a settlement or lost or.

[T.J. Tillman]

Yeah, and it's designed like that, bro. Like it is designed for us, to. Anyone going through that process is designed for you to lose because they are incentivized to win.

[Sean Kelly]

And it's a very, you know, traumatizing experience for the male. Because, you know, with my dad, I was telling you off camera, it costs a lot of money to fight this.

[T.J. Tillman]

Yeah. So luckily for me, what I did was I filed for a fee waiver, and a lot of people don't even know that they have fee waivers. So if you're in a financial situation, you. You can apply for a fee waiver and your cost is waived.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow.

[T.J. Tillman]

So for me, I didn't have a problem with. I represented myself for two years. No legal background. I'm on a fee waiver. So they're the ones spending all the money. So I have nothing but time. So it worked out for me.

[Sean Kelly]

I love it. So you got to learn all the lingo in two years.

[T.J. Tillman]

Yeah. I mean, I did some studying and researching beforehand, but I, I, I did a lot of on the job training. Like, a lot of the things that I learned, I learned it on the job. And based on their responses is how I learned more. Because as they responded to my filings, I went and researched that, and I came back with. With new evidence, and at that point, it just got to a point to where they. They were boxing and they couldn't. It was nowhere more room for them to go.

[Sean Kelly]

Dang. So you were filing stuff yourself?

[T.J. Tillman]

Yeah, I found everything for myself.

[Sean Kelly]

Holy crap.

[T.J. Tillman]

I researched it, typed it up, filed it, everything myself. No legal background.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow.

[T.J. Tillman]

It was just common sense. Like, the. What I did was I kept it real simple. Once I read their policy and I knew what they had to do, I just kept it real simple. You know, back in the day, when you asked, do you want to go with me? Yes or no. Did you follow your own policy? Yes or no? Here's your policy. Did you follow it, yes or no? If you did, okay, then. Now I'm going to challenge to make sure that you did it. If you didn't, your policy says, this is what's supposed to happen in regards to remedy, and it. Man, these people are so criminal. Like, I proves that they didn't do nothing right. For over two years yet we're still arguing points, and they didn't lay down until the fake judge actually forced them to close the case.

[Sean Kelly]

Said fake judge?

[T.J. Tillman]

Yeah, it was a fake judge.

[Sean Kelly]

Was it during COVID or.

[T.J. Tillman]

No, it was because in child support hearings, A lot of people don't know this. Child support hearings are not judicial. They're an administrative process. So it's your child support hearing is with an attorney acting as a temporary judge.

[Sean Kelly]

What?

[T.J. Tillman]

Yes. So they are trained to hear and decide. Well, not to decide, to recommend a decision to the actual judge. And you have to stipulate to that. So if you don't stipulate, which I didn't agree to my case being heard by a fake judge, but they forced me to do it anyway. But ironically, when the case got dismissed, right before it was getting dismissed, child support attorney said, well, hey, hey, hey, wait, hold up, judge. Before you make that decision, remember he said he didn't want his case heard about a fake judge. Get him to a real judge now. Oh, so now you want me to. These are the games that they play. They played these games until the last inning.

[Sean Kelly]

See, I would have had no idea if I was fighting this case that it was a fake judge.

[T.J. Tillman]

Yeah.

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[T.J. Tillman]

There are instances where you are before an actual, real judge. And this is, like you said, your dad went through a divorce, right?

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah.

[T.J. Tillman]

So in a divorce. A divorce is a judicial process. So that's before an actual judge. The problem is when they're adding on this administrative process onto this judicial process, that. That violates the separation of powers. What is the separation of powers? This is something that they taught us in school. There are three branches of government. Judicial, legislative, and executive branch. If you partake in one branch of government, you cannot participate in the other branch. But how are you mixing judicial with administrative? That's a part of the executive branch. So this is. That in itself alone makes child support a fraud. Because they're operating in all three branches of government. They're. They're creating their own codes. That's legislative. Because they have their own family codes. They're enforcing their own codes. That's administrative. That's executive branch. And they're finding you guilty in their own state hearings, which is the judicial process. So. And there's a. I believe it's Minnesota. There's a Minnesota Supreme Court case law where child support was literally, it said that it violated the separation of powers.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow.

[T.J. Tillman]

It's called Holmberg versus Holmberg.

[Sean Kelly]

And these courts want these cases because they're making money off it.

[T.J. Tillman]

They are incentivized. So this is the crazy part, and this is when people always ask me, how is child support fraud? So there's something called the United States Constitution. And the United States constitution in the 14th Amendment, it says, we have a right to be. No person shall be deprived of their life, liberty, or property without due process of law. You have the right to be heard and a right to a fair trial. How can you get a fair trial in a state hearing? Where the states are incentivized on the back end to find you guilty in the first place. So now look at this. There's a United states code is 42 USC 658A. That's incentive payments to states. The United States treasury, they authorize, in the year of 2024, $713 million to states to find you guilty in their own state hearing. So based on their performance, the more child support they collect, the more arrears, the more paternity they Establish based on their performance, they get to tap into that 713 million. And that's just for the fiscal year of 2024.

[Sean Kelly]

Holy crap. Someone's a billion dollars.

[T.J. Tillman]

Almost a billion dollars. So you don't think that they gonna cut no corners or they not going to? You going in there and presenting evidence to show that this case should be dismissed. You think they finna just lay down when they got $713 million to tap into? Come on now, who finna do that?

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, it's like a police officer with a quota.

[T.J. Tillman]

Exactly right.

[Sean Kelly]

They want to hit those numbers.

[T.J. Tillman]

And incentives. What is an incentive? Incentive is a, it's a kickback, it's a bonus. This ain't got nothing to do with their regular salary pay.

[Sean Kelly]

Right.

[T.J. Tillman]

So this is on, based on your performance, you get extra money to find people guilty in these, in your own state hearings, man.

[Sean Kelly]

These athletes need to be hitting you up, man.

[T.J. Tillman]

How can, how can you get a fair trial?

[Sean Kelly]

You can't.

[T.J. Tillman]

You can't.

[Sean Kelly]

And people don't know this. You see these headlines every week of a new child support number.

[T.J. Tillman]

They gonna know it now, cuz I'm here with Sean Kelly.

[Sean Kelly]

Hell yeah. Let's get it out there, man. I mean, 50% of people are getting divorced. So this is important.

[T.J. Tillman]

Yeah, it's. I mean, I, I've said this in, man, when you, when you go through that process. So ultimately what they're telling you is child support, like family is a private matter. They're saying that you are incompetent because you came to us and you guys couldn't create your own agreement between yourselves. Therefore you're now coming to us for our services. So our services come with fees. There's two types of child support cases. There's title 4D and then there's non 4D. What is title 4D? Title 4D is. It is government assistance where there's the cash A, the Medicaid and the food stamps. So if a mother or father goes and get the cash aid, then they're automatically waiving your rights for their benefits. I'm gonna say that again. They're receiving benefits, but they're waiving your rights because now they're coming after you to repay back money that was given as a grant. Because this started in 1935. In 1935 was the, the Social Security act where they started the program where they created the government assistance. But then in 1975 they did an amendment which came out to be child support. I like to call it child looking.

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[T.J. Tillman]

You gotta put some extras on it because child support is the marketing strategy for Title 4D. But Title 4D isn't sexy. If I said, yo, Sean, you paid your title 4D? And it's like, what is title 4D? But when I say, did you pay your child support? It's like it taps into those emotions. It's like, oh, you're not taking care of your kids. That's why you have this negative stigma on child support when actually it should be called state support, because that's what it's actually for. And this is not my opinion. This is child support's own opinion in the Supreme Court case law, Blessing versus Freestone. So in Blessing versus Freestone, five women from Arizona, they sued child support because they were getting the title 4D, they was receiving the cash aid and they gave up the fathers and now child support was taking all of the money. So when the women are getting their child support checks, they're looking at them and they're sure, they like, hey, why are you keeping all of the money? And child support said, hey, that's not your money. So they actually sued child support and they said, that's not your money. Then it came out and they had to tell on themselves. They said that child support was never intended to benefit the child nor the custodial parent. It was intended to benefit the state.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow.

[T.J. Tillman]

They literally said that. It literally says that. It's a Supreme Court case law called Blessing vs Freestone. It is the backbone case law, anything dealing with child support.

[Sean Kelly]

So what was the conclusion of that?

[T.J. Tillman]

They, they, that's, that's the conclusion that those women, there was no entitlement to child support. You have no right to child support. That was the conclusion.

[Sean Kelly]

Oh, wow.

[T.J. Tillman]

So those, those five women from Arizona, they lost. They lost. So in that child support had to tell on himself and say that a child support was never intended to benefit the child, it was intended to benefit the state.

[Sean Kelly]

That's crazy.

[T.J. Tillman]

So it should be called state support.

[Sean Kelly]

Dude, that's nuts. There's a couple other cases you've studied. Burnham versus Superior Court.

[T.J. Tillman]

Oh yeah, that one that involves the the fake judge. Because in Burham vs Superior Court, they said that these cases, your case has to be. So in my case, my case was signed. Once I went through the discovery and I looked at it, it said judge pro tem. So I'm like, judge pro tem. So then I started looking, doing more research. I'm like, what is a judge pro tem? And that's how I found out judge pro tem is a attorney acting as a temporary judge. So in different regions, they call them different things. There's like, on the west coast, they're called commissioners. Down south, it's attorney Generals or the Department of Revenue. Up north, they have the friend of the courts. On the east coast, it's the magistrates. But they're all attorneys acting as temporary judges. You're in that case. It said that you're in order to enforce a money judgment, it has to be signed by an actual judge. So in a lot of these cases is being signed by attorneys acting as temporary judges. They're not judicial officers. So it lacks a judicial signature. So therefore it's not enforceable. But how do they get away with it? Because there's something called prima facie. And always talk about this in America, I'm sure you've heard the term innocent to proving guilty. That's supposed to be the backbone of our judicial system. But in these administrative hearings, because child support is not judicial, they operate under prima facie. Prima facie says the courts take whatever is filed as true and correct until you provide evidence to say that it's not. So if you don't provide any evidence to challenge what they file, they're taking it as true and correct. So this is how myself and a lot of others are getting caught up in these hearings. Because until you file something to challenge it, they gonna take it as. As what it is. Because in these hearings, they work under presumption. They presume that if you don't respond, we presume that you agree.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow. And that's not common knowledge for people to know it's not.

[T.J. Tillman]

Child support hearings work under presumption. And I'mma say that again. Which camera? Where's my camera? This one? Yeah, this one right here. Child support hearings work under presumption. If you do not object, they presume that you agree. I was an oblivious objector in my child support hearing. Anything that I didn't agree with, I objected to it because I understood presumption. So I'll give you a perfect example. During the process, when I. My very first day, I walk in my Hearing the commissioner, he's reading my paperwork, and as I'm walking in, he hadn't even started yet. He's under his breath. He said, oh, you're a constitutionalist. Objection. Everybody's looking like, wait, what are you objecting? So we haven't even started yet. I say, well, he just called me a constitutionalist. So now I have to remove him because I can't get a fair trial under due process. Because now he just said that I'm a constitutionist, therefore, he. He just made a judgment over me, therefore I can't get a fair trial with him. So I end up removing him.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow.

[T.J. Tillman]

Then I had to come back to a new hearing to get a new person.

[Sean Kelly]

Holy crap.

[T.J. Tillman]

Another prime example. Child support attorney. She tried to introduce a whole thick stack of documents for over the 22 years, and within this time frame, Mr. Tillman made voluntary payments. Objection. Those payments were not made voluntary. They were made under duress. You suspended my license. You sent income withholding orders to my employer. You put a lien on my name. You put it on my credit report. I was incarcerated because my license was suspended. That's not voluntary. That's duress. So I. I understood what she was trying to do, because if I didn't object to her saying I made voluntary payments, is. I'm now agreeing to what she said.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow.

[T.J. Tillman]

So.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, that's nuts. Yeah. For people watching this that haven't heard of your case, could you briefly explain what happened to.

[T.J. Tillman]

So in my case, when I turned 18 years old, they retroactively went back and started child support on me for title 4D for. To when I was 12 years old. So ultimately, I was made liable for a child when I was 12 years old. During that time, I. I found out about my child support case seven years after it opened. So seven years after I turned 18, I'm, you know, I'm now working because I was in the streets hustling. But then when I finally got a job about six months in HR gives me a call, say, hey, you know, we want to talk to you. And it's on payday. So I go in there, and they like, hey, well, Mr. Tillman, we got an income withholding order. I'm like, an income withholding order. I'm like, what is that? And they was like, well, yeah, they're gonna start garnishing your checks effective immediately. I'm like, who gonna start garnishing my checks? What do you mean? And she was like, child support. I'm like, child support? What do you mean, child support? She said, well, here's the notice that they gave to me. And she handed me my check. I'm looking at my check. My check is short. Now, mind you on this, at this time, I'm not doing good at all. I'm, I'm in a county program. I'm receiving cash aid myself, food stamps myself and the benefits. So I'm not doing good. I'm in a county program. So the county is coming after me, taking my money, yet they are the one that's paying me for my employer. It's crazy. So I contact them and they saying, well. And I'm like, well, what's going on? She said, well, Mr. Tillman, unfortunately there's nothing that you can do because it's, it's been, you had six months to respond and it's been seven years. I'm like, wait, what do you, what do you mean it's been seven years? She said, yeah, this case was open seven years ago. You may want to contact the family law facilitator. And this is a self help people inside of the court. They supposed to help people. You know, that's not attorneys. I go in there, they tell me the same thing and they like, well, under, you know, California code, something, something. You had six months to respond. Your response is untimely. There's nothing that you can do. So I'm under this presumption that I don't went to the courts and of course telling me ain't nothing I can do. So this went on for another 13 years. So at this point, I'm on child support for 20 years. She now during that process, they're suspending my license. I get arrested, I go to jail. The judge tell me, if you come back here on suspended license again, I'm giving you 180 days in county jail. I'm like, I'm not going to do 180 days in jail for child support because my license is suspended. I need to fix it. So I go to child support and now I'm forced to make an agreement with them to pay them additional $50 on top of the money that they already taken so they don't suspend my license. We have this agreement, but every year my license is still getting suspended for a system error. So year 13, my license gets suspended. Now I got to call them, pay the DMV money to reinstate my license. And I'm on the phone with the lady, I'm like, yo, why do we keep going through this? Why you? I'm paying y'all extra money. So My license don't get suspended. Why, why do I keep going through this? And I'm like, I don't even know why I'm going through this anyway. Like it's fraud anyway. And a lady said, fraud? What do you mean fraud? You got served. I said, well, wait, what? I got served? She said, yeah, you got served. I said, well, well, tell me, what day did I get served? Because I've been with me every day of my life. I know how to get served. She said, hold on one second. I bull crap you not. I'm on hold. The lady comes back, I'm sorry, Mr. Tillman, we don't have your signature. I'm like, well, I know you didn't have my signature. She. But before I could say anything, she said, that don't even matter because you volunteered into the program. I did what? She said, yeah, you volunteered into the program. I said, well, tell me what day I volunteered. She said, yeah, we had your signature. I said, oh, you do. Tell me what day I sign. She said, I'll be right back. I'm on hold again. She comes back, I'm sorry, Mr. Tillman, we don't not have your son. I'm like going crazy on the phone at this point. I want to speak to the supervisor, the president. I need to speak to somebody because y'all tripping. But, but what she did was here are the gyms. She told me that I had to get served and she told me that child support was voluntary because she said, I volunteered into the program. So I said, light bulb went on. What else are you supposed to do? Because I know you didn't do those two things. So now I start researching, what else are you supposed to do? Now this is how I came across their, in their policy on the guidelines on what child support is supposed to do and how they're supposed to open these cases. And what I found was mind blowing. I ended up taking them to court after 20 years and I represented myself. And it was a 12 round heavyweight battle. Ding, ding, damn. It was, it was, it was, it was mayhem. And we going in there, I already told you how my first day went. And then from that point, I'm now just representing myself, going through the process. Now in this process, what I found out as well, that say you have these documents. So there's, there's a United states code, it's 28 USC 1691. This applies to all states because it's a United States code that says that all writs and processes issued in the court of the United States shall be under the seal of the court and signed by the clerk thereof. So I'm looking at my summons, my complaint, my proof of service. I had a default and my actual judgment. So I'm looking at my documents. I'm like. It says deputy clerk, not the county clerk. So now I'm looking at the Supreme Court case law, Scamby vs. Tryon. Scammy vs. Tryon says that where the Ritz is signed by a deputy clerk is void for lack of a judicial signature. It says deputy clerk. My documents don't have a seal of the court. It says if it doesn't have the seal of the court, that mean it's void. So they're not even following their own procedures when they open these cases. But until we provide evidence to challenge it, the course is taking it as true and correct.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow.

[T.J. Tillman]

But it gets deeper, though. It gets deeper. Not only did they not follow their own procedures on paper, what I found was I'm looking at the proof of service. I say proof of service, it says that they served a Michael Tillman. I'm like, michael Tillman? Well, my name ain't Michael. Michael is a common name. But ironically, there's no one named Michael in my entire family. Family. So I proved that there was no Michael in my family. How did I do that? When you have obituaries, my grand. Unfortunately, my grandmother had just passed right before, you know, this hearing process. And on the back of my grandmother's or in the obituary, it had a list of her brothers, her sisters, siblings, all of that. There's nobody named Michael in here anywhere. Now, my father, my grandmother on my father's side, they live in Alabama. And ironically, I just went to go see them, and I haven't seen them in 25 years. There's a Facebook post. I'm with my uncles. Ain't seen them in 25 years. These are the Tillmans. So I use my grandmother's obituary and his Facebook post because they use it against us, and they use it against these rappers. So. So I use their own evidence against them. There's nobody named Michael in my family. So we established that. Now I'm looking at the proof of service. I'm looking at the address, and I'm like, I didn't live there, bro. So I'm looking at the address. We did live there at one point, but we moved when I was still a minor. So if my grandmother and mother move, that mean I move because I'm a minor. I can't go get an apartment on my own. So what I did was I sent a subpoena to the owner of the home and the Los Angeles County Department of Water and Power. I need you to come testify on who lived at this place at this time and this day. The owner of the home came and testified and said, well, on this date, I didn't have any tenants there. The Department of Water and Power came and said, on this date, we didn't have any power at this house. So there's no way that you could have served somebody at this house. Nobody lived there, so they served me at a vacant house. Why do. Why would they do that? That goes back to these incentives. This $713 million that they were incentivized in 2024. Back then, the incentive, it was like 460 some million. It just keeps going up. So I proved that they served me at a vacant house. So that's why I didn't even. That's why I found out about the case seven years after it opened.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow.

[T.J. Tillman]

So they intentionally falsified the proof of service to get a default judgment. Why? Because they're incentivized on the back end to open these cases. When you, when it's. It's like you eat what you kill. So at that point, I still. You would think the case should just be over. At this point, we still argue on points because now I have to prove. They said, well, yeah, they said, oh, key. They said the proof of service was invalid, but the, the average person would have just took that small win. And I said, nah, it was fraud. So what I did was I came back the very next hearing on a big screen, I put the definition of invalid and the definition of fraud right next to each other. Invalid is consistent with fraud. It says the exact same thing. And when I said that, the fake judge, she leaned over, she put her glasses down, and she was like. I was reluctant to call it what it is, but I now have to say that it is fraud. Objection. This is child supporters attorney said, your objection is noted. Because again, if they don't, if they don't object, they presume they agree with what she just said. So they didn't agree what she just said. So at this point. But what is reluctant reluctance means I'm struggling. Why are you struggling to call it fraud when all of the evidence in front of you has says that it was fraud? Because she is part of their actual program. So long story short, after that, I then now have to prove that my order wasn't signed by a judge. They said that it was signed by a commissioner they said. I said, well, the commissioner is not a judge. I had to prove that. Then they said, well, you right. He wasn't a judge. He was a judicial officer. So now I have to come back and prove that he wasn't even a judicial officer. So where did I go? I went to their own website. Frequently asked questions. It literally says, you are not a judicial officer. And it says. They said that they can't even take pictures of themselves in them black robes. Why? Because it literally says. Because it's not intended to deter you from putting it on your application. It is to protect the public from believing that you are a judicial officer. And when I filed that, all hell broke. They like, hey, man, get him up out of here, because he finna blow open the whole system. Ultimately, they set aside my default judgment. My case got dismissed for extrinsic fraud, and the case is closed and it can never be opened again.

[Sean Kelly]

Did they have to pay you?

[T.J. Tillman]

Yes, they did.

[Sean Kelly]

Good shit.

[T.J. Tillman]

So immediately. Oh, immediately after the case was dismissed. Now we're in here. Child support attorney says, well, your honor, if we're dismissing entire case, all of the money has to go back to him. But it's not in the best interest of the child to make the mother pay back the money because the state of California just didn't get the money. She got some money, too, but it's not in the best interest of the child to make her pay back the money. What did I do? Objection. Because remember the Blessing versus Freestone when y'all told them five women from Arizona that child support wasn't in the best interest of the child? So don't try to use it against me. Remember, you stand on your business. You said that it's not in the best interest of the child, so don't try to use it against me. The court said, hey, he's actually right. So from that point, they made me. Since then, they made me three settlement offers, and I declined them because it just wasn't enough. I needed interest. I needed damages for 22 years. Finally, I will say I'm gonna say as much as I can, but the last last month, we just came to terms on the amount on how much they got to pay back.

[Sean Kelly]

Well done, man. What a fight. It's been years.

[T.J. Tillman]

Yeah, it's been years. So it's all coming back.

[Sean Kelly]

A lot of people wouldn't want to go through that process.

[T.J. Tillman]

A lot of people don't want to go through that process. A lot of people don't know how to go through that process. And that's why I end up. I end up writing a book called How I stopped Child Support Legally. Because I didn't want my success to be an individual success. And the way I wrote that book was to. For the average person like me that don't have no legal background, that don't know where to get started. Chapter one of my book is definitions. Because you need to know prima facie, you need to know presumption. I highlighted these definitions are things that you need to know going through this process. Chapter two is titled wtf? Because that was my mindset when I found out that I was on child support for seven years and didn't even know. Chapter three is getting started. Because now, like I said, a lot of people just don't know where to get started. So in chapter three, I highlighted what I went to, what was I looking for, what evidence was I looking for, why I was looking for, what documents did I get from the court, why did I get it? Here's the codes, here's the case law is my entire process I'm getting started. Chapter four is the hearing. Now we're going through the entire hearing process. You see documents that I filed in court. The documents, the child support file, they all in the book.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah.

[T.J. Tillman]

And then chapter five is, is called Child Support Institutionalized. Because it's just a mindset of like a person being institutionalized. It's just like I was on child support for 22 years. It's like just because you said the case is dismissed, it's like I was. I still don't. At that point, I. I was still scared to put things in my name. It's like you. Because they take all of your money out your account, they do a bank levy. So I was scared to put things in my name because they would come.

[Sean Kelly]

And take it crazy.

[T.J. Tillman]

So it was just like I had to struggle with myself. It's like, you're not on child support no more. Like you can go and open up a bank account. They're not going to take your money. It's closed.

[Sean Kelly]

Hey, you got some trauma it, man.

[T.J. Tillman]

That's why I held out. And they had to come with the right number. Damn.

[Sean Kelly]

So what were they doing before child support? Because you said that that was enacted recently, right?

[T.J. Tillman]

Yes. So what was it, what was they doing before child support? What do you mean?

[Sean Kelly]

Like when someone got like separated and they had kids, like, was there a system before child support?

[T.J. Tillman]

No. So this child support started in 1975.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow.

[T.J. Tillman]

So that's when child support enforcement actually started. So just to Give you a history. And I kind of touched on it before. So Title 4A started in 1935. That's the 1935 Social Security Act. Because in 1935 this is around the Great Depression, so men were going to war or whether they left their Whitman or in their family. Women couldn't really work in 1935. If they did, they wouldn't get paid much to support their family if they was a single mother. So they had to come up with this program. So they came up with a program A to dependent children. So it was ADC and I believe it was like 1962 they did an amendment to AFDC A to dependent Families and Children. But then this money is a grant. If you look at the their website today, the Social Security Administration website, it literally says that Title 4A is a grant. So what is a grant?

[Sean Kelly]

Government money. Right.

[T.J. Tillman]

A grant is a gift. A gift is something that's given without any counterbalancing payment. So if you're giving out title for a money, cash aid, Medicaid and food stamps to assist for needy families, it's a grant. But then they start looking at it and saying wait, wait a minute, will we giving out all of this free money to. Then they start looking, oh, it's going to a lot of underprivileged areas. This is not what it was designed for. So in 1975 they did an amendment title 4D. This is when they created the child Support enforcement program to go after the non custodial parent to rebate to repay back money that was given out as a grant. But here's the thing. How can you be enforced to repay money that was given out for free?

[Sean Kelly]

That's interesting. It's only 50 years old.

[T.J. Tillman]

Yeah.

[Sean Kelly]

So that's our generation.

[T.J. Tillman]

Yeah. So it started in 1975. So before then there was no child Support enforcement program in place until 1975.

[Sean Kelly]

Crazy. It's up to 700 million now. So it's probably going to hit a billion if it keeps going.

[T.J. Tillman]

Oh, it's going up. It's definitely going up. Like I said back then when I found out on me, it was 400 some million to the fiscal year of 7. In 2024 they authorized $713 million and it's only going up.

[Sean Kelly]

That's not.

[T.J. Tillman]

So when you have these elections and they talking about taxes and where they get money from, it's 7 they giving away $713 million in free money to enforce child support to tap into that money because it's free money.

[Sean Kelly]

How much of that actually goes to the mother. You think?

[T.J. Tillman]

So in 40 cases, child support can keep up to 66% of that money.

[Sean Kelly]

Holy crap.

[T.J. Tillman]

Yeah. So they can keep up to 66%.

[Sean Kelly]

What?

[T.J. Tillman]

Yes, because you're receiving incentive. I mean, you're receiving benefits. So they. There. That's why they came up with this program to reimburse the money that they was giving out for title 4A. So it's. That's why I say it should be called state support and not child support. Because it's not for the children, it's for the state.

[Sean Kelly]

So people watching this, if they're going through a divorce, they should just work out an agreement between husband and wife. They shouldn't even involve child support.

[T.J. Tillman]

Right, you shouldn't. But I mean, you have. When relationships fail, and I mean, because there are some people to where you know, they've been there from day one and haven't given the other person anything to show them just because we separated, that that person would not be there for their children. Yet you went and put them on child support. So it's like you have to. The best thing to do is to create a private agreement agreement between yourself. Because. And I've said this, it's like for me, had I known what I known today, I wouldn't have signed my children's birth certificate.

[Sean Kelly]

Whoa.

[T.J. Tillman]

I would not have signed it. I would have created my own agreement in regard. As far as. Because what that is, is establishing the parent child relationship. But I don't need you to establish the parent child relationship. So before the birth certificate was signed, just say, for instance, you signed the birth Certificate on Day 3 While you know, you're in a hospital after you done gave birth. So you telling me that this wasn't my child on day one and day two, this was already my child. So it establishes the parent child relationship. And you're now going into receiving their benefits. I don't know. Thank you, but no thank you. I don't want your services. Because once you say you want my benefits, you're waiving your rights. I would have created my own agreement. So it's best to go private and stay private. The, the America was built on. That's why we have the United States Constitution.

[Sean Kelly]

Right.

[T.J. Tillman]

And, and, and those are for. Those are private rights you have. You have these rights, but once you partake in these benefits, you are slowly waiving those rights.

[Sean Kelly]

That is so interesting.

[T.J. Tillman]

Yeah.

[Sean Kelly]

So what if both parents don't sign who owns the kid at that point?

[T.J. Tillman]

At that point, you have to. For them, you have To. They're going to make you sign it.

[Sean Kelly]

Oh, they're going to make you.

[T.J. Tillman]

If you have a child in that, in that hospital. Yeah, you. You came to. You use our own services. If you didn't want our services, you should have had a baby at your house. Because that's when you look at. There's something called the acknowledgment of paternity. So this is when you have the child and everybody's happy. You know, after the quiet hour, you get your time with your child and it's cool. Then here comes a lady, she walks in with a clipboard. No rush. Take your time. You looking at this and you're like, oh, acknowledgement. Opportunity is. It establishes the parent child relationship. Or you're gonna. Your name will be on your child's birth certificate. But if you read the bottom or you flip it over and read the back because it changes in different states, it tells you that it's a dual contract with child support services.

[Sean Kelly]

Whoa, that's crazy.

[T.J. Tillman]

It tells you. And it tells you before signing this, you may want to seek legal representation. Why do I need to seek legal representation if I'm just signing it so that my child can have my last name? It literally says that you are entering into a dual contract with child support services. But here's the problem for them. Here's the problem. There is a code to where is 42 USC? What? 42 USC or 45 CFR 303.5? I'm gonna say that again. 45 CFR, that's Code of Federal Regulations 303.5. That is the voluntary acknowledgment of paternity. What that says is state birth record agencies, the birth certificate people and the hospitals. In order for them to open up a child support case, they have to establish paternity. That's that document they just slid to you. You can acknowledge paternity several ways. You can just voluntary acknowledge paternity, or you can sign that voluntary acknowledgment of paternity. Or later on you can do a DNA testing. But 45 CFR 303.5 says whenever paternity is being established, they must at a minimum. I'm going to say this again. They must at a minimum provide the mother and alleged father five things. They must provide you the opportunity to establish paternity. They must give it to you written, but they also must give it to you the legal consequences of establishing voluntary paternity. What are the legal consequences? License suspensions, passport withholding, this income Withholding orders, bank levy, putting it on your credit report, possible jail time. These are the legal consequences of establishing paternity. But they don't tell you that. No. So. But this is how they have to give it to you. They have to give it to you by audio, meaning having you put on some headphones, watching the TV screen. You have to watch it, listen to it by audio, by video, or verbally telling you. These are the legal consequences of establishing paternity. And they must provide you the opportunity to speak with a trained staff that's trained to answer questions about establishing paternity because they presume that if I told you, hey, Sean, you just had this kid. Before you sign this document, look, this is acknowledgment of paternity, but it's a dual contract with child support services. Before signing this. By signing this, you are agreeing to license suspensions, passport withholding, income withholding order, bank levies, all of these things. A person in a right mind would say, you know what? Nah, I don't think I want to sign this. I think I want to talk to an attorney first. Yeah, and that's. It literally says that on that document. But. And that's why I took it back to the very beginning. It starts with the origin. And people. A lot of people don't know this. Like, they are coercing and withholding information to enter you into these contracts. They're not providing you with the full disclosures. I'm sure you bought a car before.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah.

[T.J. Tillman]

When you purchase a car, what did they give you? They gave you that long, long CVS receipt. Yeah, it's the four disclosures of entering into this contract. It's the same thing. They have to provide you the legal disclosures of the legal consequences of entering into this contract, and they do not.

[Sean Kelly]

That's so crazy, because signing a birth certificate, that should be one of your happiest moments.

[T.J. Tillman]

It should be. And that's why they come in to you when you're in your most vulnerable state.

[Sean Kelly]

Wow. Yeah, I never would have questioned that, but thank you for telling me that.

[T.J. Tillman]

If you have it, you have a. Anybody. If you got a copy of your acknowledgment of paternity, read the bottom, flip it over. Whatever you need to do. I guarantee you it says that it's a dual contract with child support services and that you may want to seek legal representation before signing it.

[Sean Kelly]

Crazy. How much hate do you get from single mothers on social media?

[T.J. Tillman]

It's, it's, it's, it's, it's Fair. I, it's not as much as that. I, When I started, and that's why I came up with the slogan, every time you hear me say child support is fraud right after, I'm usually saying, but take care of them kids, though, because this ain't no get out of jail free card. Because I want to. Before you even start, I want you to know that yes, I'm challenging child support, but I'm not challenging a parent's responsibility to take care of their children. I'm challenging the child support system itself. The, the entire entity. So it's like women, you know, they come in and it's like, well, you teaching these dead beads to do that? I'm like, no, let's, let's, let's converse about this. I'm not educating anyone to beat child support or for, for a person not to take care of their kids. I'm a father. Take great care of my kids. I would never do nothing like that. But I am educating our people on these. We have rights. And by accepting these benefits, you waiving your rights without even knowing it and without them providing you the legal disclosures of letting you know that you are waiving your rights by accepting these benefits.

[Sean Kelly]

Right.

[T.J. Tillman]

So it's just a conversation. And you know, so I, I just take it and I just keep it pushing, man. And I know after we converse and you know, we had these conversations, whether it's in person or online or in the comments or whatever, and they see, it's like, oh, like, I see what he, I see what he's on. But. And you know, there's some. It's like, still just like you trying to help these dead beats. And I say, look, you have to understand these words. And especially when you look at a deadbeat, Debbie says, a person that's not paying their financial responsibility. So if you got a derogatory mark on your credit report from Chase T Mobile, you ain't paid your light bill, you a deadbeat. By definition, it says the same thing. It is not specific to family. That just means that you skipped out on handling your responsibility, your financial debt. And, and that's, and that's a whole nother thing. It's like child support is a debt. There's a lot of. I know there's a lot of. There's going to be a lot of consumer law people that come to say, hey, tj, whoa, whoa, whoa. You. You're going a little bit too far. Now. The FDCPA says that child support is not a consumer debt. You're right. But there is a supreme court case law that says child support is a debt. And that's. That's as much I'm gonna say on that, because I'm not an attorney and I can't give you legal advice. Just my experience is dealing with child support.

[Sean Kelly]

I mean, you said yourself your credit score got messed up from this, right? So technically, yeah, that makes sense.

[T.J. Tillman]

Yeah, ultimately. And here's There. Here's another key thing. I provided so much evidence in that case within those two years, I. I had child support removed from my credit report. I want to say probably about six years before the case got dismissed. Because there's shout out to my guy, one credit guy. He got it, got it off there. But also, as far as my license, I made the court force them to stop all enforcement into the outcome of the case. And then, of course, the case was dismissed for extrinsic fraud. So, damn, it was all good.

[Sean Kelly]

Well, where could people find your book now and learn from you, man?

[T.J. Tillman]

Everything is on child support is fraud dot com. There's the book. I do consultations. I do master classes. Everything is. Is there. You can find me on Instagram. Child Support is fraud. YouTube. Everything is child support is fraud.

[Sean Kelly]

You got a trademark that?

[T.J. Tillman]

No, it is.

[Sean Kelly]

I love it.

[T.J. Tillman]

It's definitely trademark. We. This ain't for play Play. This the real deal. Holy field. Like it lit. You can go look it up yourself. It says child supported. It is trademarked.

[Sean Kelly]

There we go. Check out the set, guys. We'll link below. Thanks for coming on, tj, man.

[T.J. Tillman]

Thank you for having me.

[Sean Kelly]

Absolutely. Thanks for watching, guys. Check out the links below. See you next time, PE.